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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Asides from the issues pointed above, You'll have to excuse me from laughing when I see that the expat groups which contribute least to this phenomenon are the ones chest thumping the most

    And if there is any merit for chest thumping, the ones who are mostly responsible for it dont even know about it and are just sending money home to their family members.

    (also way to miss the unproductivity point. It was more in relation to the family members who stop contributing to the economy and just wait for the check from Saudi.)
    If we are going to divide ''expats'' into specifics then I can afford far more chest-thumping than the majority of people living in the Gulf, alhamdulillah. But I won't, because this is not about me or Western expats (who send 9 billions yearly), Pakistanis are thankless towards all expats. Proof being that you and Mamoon have always disparaged ''expats'' as a general group. This distinction with the Gulf you have only started making when shown through numbers the absurdity of your position that Pakistan isn't propped up by remittances.

    (You are the one who used the word ''Talent drain''. Explain to me how ''talent drain'' is someone not working because they are receiving a check)


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Generally speaking, most people go abroad for studies since it is the easiest, most sure-shot way of gaining immigration. Majority who go abroad always claim they will come back (and have a spout of patriotism in their first couple of years) but once they near graduation or gain employment there they close the Pakistan chapter.
    Until world oil prices crash


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Legally speaking you are not an expat (actually, immigrant in the context of this discussion) if you are abroad as a student
    Residents are not students.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    If we are going to divide ''expats'' into specifics then I can afford far more chest-thumping than the majority of people living in the Gulf, alhamdulillah. But I won't, because this is not about me or Western expats (who send 9 billions yearly), Pakistanis are thankless towards all expats. Proof being that you and Mamoon have always disparaged ''expats'' as a general group. This distinction with the Gulf you have only started making when shown through numbers the absurdity of your position that Pakistan isn't propped up by remittances.

    (You are the one who used the word ''Talent drain''. Explain to me how ''talent drain'' is someone not working because they are receiving a check)
    I can actually point to several posts in the past where I have made this distinction with remittances in the Gulf and outside.

    Btw.... In past on PP it used to be a weekly topic on how British pakistanis were making pak stay afloat and on several of those threads ive made the same points ive made here. And actually cited papers and statistics back then

    so ts harly a new position

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Until world oil prices crash
    haha do you know sth i dont?

    persoally speaking world oil price crash was a bit of a windfall for me esp as a guy a year out of college.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Residents are not students.
    huh? Actually i dont know mamoon's situation.

    by the looks of it going by syeds post it seems he has moved to US? wth lol!

    resident you mean PR or is this the medicine term?

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I can actually point to several posts in the past where I have made this distinction with remittances in the Gulf and outside.

    Btw.... In past on PP it used to be a weekly topic on how British pakistanis were making pak stay afloat and on several of those threads ive made the same points ive made here. And actually cited papers and statistics back then

    so ts harly a new position
    Their position is not unfair if we assume that they are talking about BritPaks only and not about expats as a whole. British Pakistanis are the second largest group after Gulf remittances. Over a whole amount of 20 bil remittances (and investments which are not counted in the amount), the sudden disappearance of that amount (which could be anywhere between 5 to 10 billion $) would be a catastrophe for the fragile failed economy of Pakistan. And you yourself have helped me realize how fragile with your numerous exposes on how PML-N claims are fraud and how they are taking the country to abyss.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Just because they have their family there with them doesn't mean they don't send remittances for their extended family. Not to mention that the well-off ones invest money in Pakistan both in real estate and in businesses, which is also a non-negligible impact.

    Secondly, you are again shooting from the hip by saying that most of the remittance money comes from unskilled labourer who don't even live there. You are just basing yourself on a stereotype here. Truth is there are as many situations as there are Pakistanis living in the Gulf. There are well-off people who send money, there are middle class people who send money, often office workers. There are labourers who improved their social situation by rising up in the construction business (still under the tutelage of an arab as that's the law there). And all more or less send money.
    its pretty hilarious that you accuse someone of 'shooting from the hip' and then you do the exact same

    Ill admit and id kinda said it that i am speaking from my observations and experiences of people I know and these are likely a greater quantum as Ive lived in Pak and met people from all strata who are based in the Gulf. Anyways, If that is shooting from the hip then arent your claims the same lol. Esp considering you have explicity cited 'people I know' in an earlier post. Or do you have a statistical break up to prove your claim?

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Their position is not unfair if we assume that they are talking about BritPaks only and not about expats as a whole. British Pakistanis are the second largest group after Gulf remittances. Over a whole amount of 20 bil remittances (and investments which are not counted in the amount), the sudden disappearance of that amount (which could be anywhere between 5 to 10 billion $) would be a catastrophe for the fragile failed economy of Pakistan. And you yourself have helped me realize how fragile with your numerous exposes on how PML-N claims are fraud and how they are taking the country to abyss.
    Ill also do an expose on how remittances cant prop up a nation soon and at best are a short term fix and at worst, a long term hell.

    Watch this space! :arthur

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    its pretty hilarious that you accuse someone of 'shooting from the hip' and then you do the exact same

    Ill admit and id kinda said it that i am speaking from my observations and experiences of people I know and these are likely a greater quantum as Ive lived in Pak and met people from all strata who are based in the Gulf. Anyways, If that is shooting from the hip then arent your claims the same lol. Esp considering you have explicity cited 'people I know' in an earlier post. Or do you have a statistical break up to prove your claim?
    Well, the thing is that I didn't make any claims about the profile of remittances or the people who are there. I acknowledged that there is diversity among the people living in the Gulf (hardly a tall claim) and I only used two claims: the 20 billion figure and the 5-10 billions from BritPaks. Neither of which you contested.

    Saying that all Gulf remittances come from one profile (labourer whose family is back home and who will go back to pakistan and who never brags about sending money back home) is however a tall claim. Maybe the term ''shooting from the hip'' is needlessly aggressive but surely you have to acknowledge that you presented a simplistic stereotype to fit your narrative.
    Last edited by endymion248; 29th November 2016 at 18:25.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Well, the thing is that I didn't make any claims about the profile of remittances or the people who are there. I acknowledged that there is diversity among the people living in the Gulf (hardly a tall claim) and I only used two claims: the 20 billion figure and the export figures for Pakistan. Neither of which you contested.

    Saying that all Gulf remittances come from one profile (labourer whose family is back home and who will go back to pakistan and who never brags about sending money back home) is however a tall claim. Maybe the term ''shooting from the hip'' is needlessly aggressive but surely you have to acknowledge that you presented a simplistic stereotype to fit your narrative.
    You were the one presenting a simplistic argument by stating as if the whole expat group was a monolith and everyone could lay a claim to the figure of remittances whereas this is not the case....

    Also Id suggest you to look into literature regarding remittances and its effect on economic growth as it seems you have a rudimentary understanding at best. There is a reason why many of the poorest countries have the highest remittances yet dont see any substantial improvement in their stock year on year (This is besides the argument here but still interesting and informative from a general knowledge perspective if you are so inclined)

  12. #252
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    What is sad is that the Pakistani citizens have been kept in the dark for way too long.

    This video says the finance minister fudges GDP figures, and he even lied to the PM that he got the best FM award from IMF and the world bank

    Last edited by Moh@n; 30th November 2016 at 19:41.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    What is sad is that the Pakistani citizens have been kept in the dark for way too long.

    This video says the finance minister fudges GDP figures, and he even lied to the PM that he got the best FM award from IMF and the world bank

    PMLN and this FM Dar is exposed hundreds of times but nothing happened and nothing is going to happen if these blind voters keep voting for them they deserve the worst...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  14. #254
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    My close relatives have worked in Pakistan Bureau of Statistics.


    This fudging of figures has been going on since last 30 odd years.


    The minister meets the Secretary does Phoon Phaan gets angry and says he isn't satisfied with the figures and by Hook or Crook change them. The Secretary calls certain directors and asks him to Up the figures.



    GDP growth in Musharaff Era did improve but what was being claimed wasn't actual figure.




    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.
    Are you sure is is jamaatiya? Because Dar is doing mureedi of different derbaars and peers from decades.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  16. #256
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    Koi sheram hoti hai koi haya hoti he...

    Last edited by WebGuru; 15th December 2016 at 18:20.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Koi sheram hoti hai koi haya hoti he...

    translation please?

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    translation please?
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"


    Demons run when a good man goes to war
    GO NAWAZ GO!

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    My close relatives have worked in Pakistan Bureau of Statistics.


    This fudging of figures has been going on since last 30 odd years.


    The minister meets the Secretary does Phoon Phaan gets angry and says he isn't satisfied with the figures and by Hook or Crook change them. The Secretary calls certain directors and asks him to Up the figures.



    GDP growth in Musharaff Era did improve but what was being claimed wasn't actual figure.




    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.
    It is a common practice in most developing countries. Except India and China do it at a much more technical level, switching between GDP deflator and CPI depending on which is more favorable.

    Ishaq Dar is not even an economist. He's trained as a Munshi.
    Last edited by HussainRx8; 16th December 2016 at 01:11.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"
    thanks. am waiting to hear about how they are going to blame it all on rising oil prices. when oil was falling, they claimed success of economic policy, now its rising, all the problems will be because of that.

    but of course, its far more important not to focus on rising energy and food prices for the 170mm poor people in the country, its far more important to focus on imran khan's marriage/dharnas - which apparently are as damaging to those 170mm poor people in the country.

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"


    NS's lawyer has clarified That this was only a political statement and not meant to be taken seriously.

  22. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"
    I think there is a reasonable explaination for the above:

    Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics : FY2016 v/s FY2015

    Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics : April 2016 v/s April 2015

    Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif: April 2016 v/s March 2016

    " There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

  23. #263
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    Pakistan's debt rose about 35pc during the tenure of the ruling PPML-N

    Pakistan's net public debt crosses Rs18 trillion mark


    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s net public debt has crossed the Rs18.28 trillion mark, rising about 35pc during the tenure of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N).

    This was reported by the ministry of finance, in response to a question from Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) MNA Shahida Reh*mani in the National Assembly last week. “The volume of net public debt as on Sept 30, 2016 was Rs18,277.6 billion,” the ministry’s response said.

    Total public debt stood at Rs13.48tr at the end of fiscal year 2012-13 — almost three years ago. The major contribution to the increase in net public debt came from an almost 40pc rise in domestic debt, which rose from Rs8.686tr at the end of 2013 to Rs12.14tr at the end of the first quarter of the current fiscal year (FY 2016-17).

    In the same period, foreign debt posted an increase of 28pc and went from Rs4.796tr in 2013 to Rs6.14tr on Sept 30, 2016.



    Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1313037/pak...-trillion-mark


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  24. #264
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    In a reply to Ahsan Iqbail tweet Asad Umar challenged him on Twitter for a live tv debate on economy but the program never happened so Asad today posted his views on social media.



    Economic Facts

    Last weekend in response to a tweet of mine about the need to fight corruption , ahsan iqbal made two very specific assertions and said these improvements donít take place under the corrupt.. I replied that those assertions were not correct/misleading and offered to have a tv program to discuss the issues. Unfortunately waited all week but the program could not take place, I assume because ahsan iqbal had other important commitments. So now let me respond here.

    First assertion : FX reserves have tripled. Yes they have gone up from SBP reserves of 6 billion$ to 18 billion. In the same period foreign debt has increased from $61 billion to $74 billion. Or in other words the Foreign currency reserves have gone up by $12 billion but in the same period foreign currency debt has gone up by $13 billion. To put it simply , the increase in reserves is the result of increased foreign borrowing NOT improved economic performance. Infact the reserves would have FALLEN if we had not resorted to additional borrowing.

    Second assertion : Growth rate has doubled. While the first assertion, as we have seen above, is totally misleading , the second one was unfortunately simply false. The growth rate in the last 3 years of PPP rule averaged 3.7% and the average growth rate in the 3 completed years of this Govtís rule is 4.26%. A mere half a percent point improvement , rather than the doubling of growth claimed. This is despite the fact that the independent economists have raised serious question marks about the growth rate being reported by the current govt as being exaggerated . Even the official reported growth is only slightly higher than the immediately preceding period.

    It should also be noted that Pakistan was hit by two major floods in the last 3 years of PPP rule and the international oil price was above a 100$. Despite no negative weather related shocks and the bonanza of the oil price collapse to less than half its peak , our growth is barely higher. If you look at agriculture which directly effects the lives of two thirds of Pakistaniís, the growth under the PML N govt has averaged 1.6% vs 2.7% in the last 3 years of the previous regime. So growth as it effects the lives of the majority of Pakistaniís has actually been much lower.

    Just as an additional point , while Ahsan Iqbal did not mention it, much is made of the strong performance of the stock market. Once again, the facts do not square up with the hoopla. KSE index growth in the first 3 years of this Govt was 80%, while the KSE index growth in the 3 years period immediately preceding this Govt. was actually a far stronger 116%.

    Again much is made of improved investor confidence. What do the facts say ? an average investment to GDP ratio of 15.1% vs an average of 14.7% in the preceding 3 years. The needle has barely moved. On the external front the news is grim. Exports continue to fall for the first time in the history of Pakistan and this year will end up almost 5 billion $ vs the last year of the previous regime. Both the absolute trade deficit and the current account deficits this year are expected to be the worst ever in this fiscal year. Economic indicator after economic indicator, we see the stark gap between reality and the claims of the PML N Govt. One thing however, that this Govt. is truly good at , is projection of non existing achievements and creating a hype in the presence of sustained poor performance.

    Written by: Asad Umar


    Source: https://web.facebook.com/notes/asad-...03351042/?_rdr
    Last edited by WebGuru; 18th March 2017 at 15:34.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  25. #265
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    Does the external borrowing include Chinese loans?

  26. #266
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    Pakistan's external debt will increase to $79 billion by June-end: Moody's



    Source: https://tribune.com.pk/story/1404569...lion-june-end/


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

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