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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    There was an offer of $100 billion by the thekedars of this world and in return they asked us to roll back nuclear program.
    I read something in the news a couple of days back. The upcoming budget is around $35 billion, $21 billion of it will be spent on debt servicing alone. Don't know how true that piece of news is, but seems like a crazy amount for a country like Pakistan which desperately needs every cent it can get to spend on infrastructure and social services.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  2. #162
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    Saw a post about someone asking in the thread that isn't interest haraam in islam.

    So i was wondering why do our govt (state bank) have to mention "Rizq-e-Halal ayn ibadat hai" on every pak currency note? When the whole country and banking system is running on interest. In old notes it was written pretty clear for reading but in new currency notes it's written with a very small font in circle shape.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  3. #163
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    So this is a big lie? @Slog and all is well


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    Saw a post about someone asking in the thread that isn't interest haraam in islam.

    So i was wondering why do our govt (state bank) have to mention "Rizq-e-Halal ayn ibadat hai" on every pak currency note? When the whole country and banking system is running on interest. In old notes it was written pretty clear for reading but in new currency notes it's written with a very small font in circle shape.
    During the opening ceremony of State Bank, The Quid made it quite clear that pakistan would be free of riba and not run on the economic and financial system of the west, which he claimed has actually destroyed them.

    Unfortunately, things havnt gone the way Quid planned since he passed away and the country has been over taken by IMF and The World Bank.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    During the opening ceremony of State Bank, The Quid made it quite clear that pakistan would be free of riba and not run on the economic and financial system of the west, which he claimed has actually destroyed them.

    Unfortunately, things havnt gone the way Quid planned since he passed away and the country has been over taken by IMF and The World Bank.
    Unfortunately Quaid was a brilliant barrister and politician but had no training in finance and economics.


    They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by moumotta View Post
    Unfortunately Quaid was a brilliant barrister and politician but had no training in finance and economics.
    Well at least he was good at something otherwise all our leaders have been massive failures after him.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  7. #167
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    An eye opening article by Farrukh Saleem https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/145852-Alarm-bells


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  8. #168
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    Its so confusing to understand the economic situation in Pakistan w.r.t to indicators alone.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

  9. #169
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    The Noora economic policy of smoke and mirrors can only go on for so long, and the idiots that voted for these thugs and crooks will realise that have been treated as complete pansies ( which they are) by the Sharifs.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    Its so confusing to understand the economic situation in Pakistan w.r.t to indicators alone.
    That is because nobody pays taxes and the underground economy is almost as big as the declared economy, hence an estimate of people's situation is hard to make.

    One thing is clear there are many who are ultra ultra rich, and even more who are bhookay nangay..


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    That is because nobody pays taxes and the underground economy is almost as big as the declared economy, hence an estimate of people's situation is hard to make.

    One thing is clear there are many who are ultra ultra rich, and even more who are bhookay nangay..
    Which is baffling. How hard can it be to impose heavy penalties on tax evaders?

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Which is baffling. How hard can it be to impose heavy penalties on tax evaders?
    Because the people who are in the position of imposing penalties are the biggest evaders


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Because the people who are in the position of imposing penalties are the biggest evaders
    Asad Omar came with a bill for tax reforms in National Assembly back in 2014 and guess what first he wasn't given time to speak and IIRC than after a year there was voting on it and majority voted against it. We already know why


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Which is baffling. How hard can it be to impose heavy penalties on tax evaders?
    We in India should know how rural businessmen or tier 2 cities avoid taxes.Apparently rural economy is way as big as urban one.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

  15. #175
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    Pakistan will need over $22 billion a year by 2019-20 just to meet external payment requirement

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s external debt is projected to grow to a whopping $110 billion within four years and it will need over $22 billion a year just to meet external payment requirements, posing a serious threat to the country’s solvency.

    By that time, Pakistan will again be back to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to avoid default on international payments as it did in 2013, according to independent projections revealed at the National Debt Conference on Saturday.

    Two renowned economists, former finance minister Dr Hafiz Pasha and former director general debt Dr Ashfaque Hasan Khan, have made the external debt projections. The $110-billion external debt level by 2019-20 will be $24 billion higher than projections made by the IMF in its latest report on Pakistan.


    Khan shared his assessment at the debt conference, arranged by the Policy Research Institute of Market Economy (PRIME) – an independent think tank.

    The duo updated their previous external debt forecast for fiscal year 2018-19 from $90 billion to $98 billion after the government borrowed heavily in the past one year.

    At present, the external debt stands at $73 billion, which has been projected to swell 50% to $110 billion in just four years.

    They did not see a major change in Pakistan’s export situation and anticipated that by 2019-20, the exports would stand roughly at $25 billion, a level that the country crossed in the last year of previous government of Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP).



    Owing to slowdown in exports, Pakistan’s external debt to export ratio has been projected at 441.8% by 2019-20, which is highly unsustainable. By that year, the country will consume 40% of its export earnings to service the external debt.

    “Pakistan is fast slipping into the debt trap and neither the government nor parliament is playing its due role,” remarked Asad Umar, MNA of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf while speaking at the conference.

    Khan said by 2019-20 amortisation payments would increase to $10 billion. To fill the current account gap, the country will require another $12.5 billion a year, increasing the total external payment requirement to $22.5 billion. The current account deficit will mainly widen due to imports of machinery and plants for projects being developed under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

    Against IMF’s projection of $16.7 billion, Khan said total external financing needs to bridge the current account deficit and repay loans would stand at $22.5 billion by 2019-20.

    After exhausting all available resources including CPEC financing, foreign investment and funds from traditional donors, there would still be $11-billion financing gap, which the country would not be able to bridge without IMF’s help, said Khan.

    He predicted that Pakistan would return to the IMF in 2018-19 – the fiscal year when the country’s external debt would be $98 billion and its financing gap will be $9 billion.

    “Pakistan’s debt situation is deteriorating rapidly and posing a serious threat to its solvency,” he cautioned. Commercial borrowings comprised 25% of external debt, which was a matter of concern, said Shahid Kardar, former governor of the State Bank of Pakistan.

    He said low returns on the country’s foreign currency reserves compared to the borrowing cost were also a matter of concern.

    Khan said the PML-N and PPP governments had added $49 billion to the current external debt of $73 billion. Most of this amount, estimated at $32.6 billion, was added from 2008 to 2016 while the remaining $17.4 billion was added during the 1990s.

    “We need to develop a more effective borrowing strategy, which should be consistent with the country’s development priorities,” suggested Khan.

    “Pakistan can keep its debt at sustainable levels by achieving about 6% annual economic growth,” said Dr Ali Kemal, research economist at the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics (PIDE). He, however, said despite the increase in debt levels, Pakistan was still not Greece.

    “We are at a comfortable stage and there is no need to worry about anything,” said Zafar Masud, Director General of the Central Directorate of National Savings, while speaking at the conference.


    Source: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1229155/...0b-four-years/


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  16. #176
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    Democracy is the best revenge.

  17. #177
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    $22 billion per year to service a debt of $110 billion ?

    I think someone needs to stop spinning the facts and figures in order to try and convey a false impression.

    The data may be correct, but the interpretation / sensational headlines appear to be designed to deliberately misrepresent and mislead.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    $22 billion per year to service a debt of $110 billion ?

    I think someone needs to stop spinning the facts and figures in order to try and convey a false impression.

    The data may be correct, but the interpretation / sensational headlines appear to be designed to deliberately misrepresent and mislead.
    I am assuming that a significant chunk is debt repayment rather than just interest expense. So they are borrowing to pay off previous debt which adds more interest and in a few years repayments start becoming due on those. So vicious circle

  19. #179
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    See I don't understand these things.. not a bright light when it comes to economy n finance.

    Every country seems to have debts.. nobody seems to pay them off..

    So is this a big deal what's mentioned in the op? What happens if Pakistan or for that matter keeps adding debts.. they can't pay it anyway with astronomical debts.. so what happens then?

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamon_Cookie View Post
    See I don't understand these things.. not a bright light when it comes to economy n finance.

    Every country seems to have debts.. nobody seems to pay them off..

    So is this a big deal what's mentioned in the op? What happens if Pakistan or for that matter keeps adding debts.. they can't pay it anyway with astronomical debts.. so what happens then?
    Everyone will be evicted and have to leave the country so that the those who have lent the money can take possession and sell the country to the highest bidder.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    $22 billion per year to service a debt of $110 billion ?

    I think someone needs to stop spinning the facts and figures in order to try and convey a false impression.

    The data may be correct, but the interpretation / sensational headlines appear to be designed to deliberately misrepresent and mislead.
    There are repayments not just interest (if i am not wrong repayments begins at the end of 2017). Back in 2013 we welcomed IMF again with open heart to get new loans and pay back previous loans.

    I was actually surprised when the news about current govt saying goodbye to IMF was all over media after getting the final payment a few months ago and there was no mention of how we are going to pay it back? Just like 2013? Our exports are already on decline and currently these loans and remittances were helping our economy.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  22. #182
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    its an inevitability from what i can see. its a failed state. even if a competent government is put in place, it will inherit such a massive problem, it will be replaced by another corrupt regime etc etc

    ive held and expressed the opinion consistently that pakistan will be greece.

    its irrelevant really whether the burden in a particular year will be interest or repayment, the debt will have a maturity at some point, bridging loans will become usurious. in the meanwhile, generative capacity has collapsed whilst population has exploded - no income, and increasing costs. chronic under investment in education, industry and exports for decades is a generational problem which will take a decade plus to fix.

    this is why rooting out corruption has been the most important thing for the future viability of the country, and why i cant understand people who cant see this.

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnamon_Cookie View Post
    See I don't understand these things.. not a bright light when it comes to economy n finance.

    Every country seems to have debts.. nobody seems to pay them off..

    So is this a big deal what's mentioned in the op? What happens if Pakistan or for that matter keeps adding debts.. they can't pay it anyway with astronomical debts.. so what happens then?
    It's all matter of confidence, if people believe that you can pay back the loans and keep up the interest payments the rate of interest on borrowed Money will remain manageable. The problems come when like in Greece, the international institutions lose faith in your ability to meet your obligations. Greece got lucky be because if it failed the European project would have failed and hence it was bailed out, who do you think will bail out PK?

  24. #184
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    Apparently, some people at PP think that "political stability" will reduce our debt and financial troubles.

  25. #185
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    Just skimmed through the article.

    I guess the article implies that Pakistan has a current account deficit too? Imports > Exports?

    How big of import is oil?

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Greece got lucky be because if it failed the European project would have failed and hence it was bailed out, who do you think will bail out PK?
    Saudis...oh wait they are handling their own mess right now


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    its an inevitability from what i can see. its a failed state. even if a competent government is put in place, it will inherit such a massive problem, it will be replaced by another corrupt regime etc etc

    ive held and expressed the opinion consistently that pakistan will be greece.

    its irrelevant really whether the burden in a particular year will be interest or repayment, the debt will have a maturity at some point, bridging loans will become usurious. in the meanwhile, generative capacity has collapsed whilst population has exploded - no income, and increasing costs. chronic under investment in education, industry and exports for decades is a generational problem which will take a decade plus to fix.

    this is why rooting out corruption has been the most important thing for the future viability of the country, and why i cant understand people who cant see this.
    My friend you are one of the most intelligent posters on this forum and what you say is a basic truth, which your average PK( and many other countries) doesn't understand.

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    Just skimmed through the article.

    I guess the article implies that Pakistan has a current account deficit too? Imports > Exports?

    How big of import is oil?
    The other thing people forget is that the Nooras have benefited from the low oil prices and we know just as quickly as they come down, surely they will rise again just as much and what will happen to the current account deficit . My own theory is that the whole Russian involvement in Syria was to create the sort of crisis so that oil prices would rise and so far it hasn't succeeded but it's a matter of time before they do go back up.

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    Just skimmed through the article.

    I guess the article implies that Pakistan has a current account deficit too? Imports > Exports?

    How big of import is oil?
    yes there is a current account deficit. the worse thing is that it hasnt improved despite the sustained period of low oil prices because exports have been falling

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    The other thing people forget is that the Nooras have benefited from the low oil prices and we know just as quickly as they come down, surely they will rise again just as much and what will happen to the current account deficit . My own theory is that the whole Russian involvement in Syria was to create the sort of crisis so that oil prices would rise and so far it hasn't succeeded but it's a matter of time before they do go back up.
    I actually think CPEC aside( which a) isnt any Noora achievement, and b) isnt as good or rosy as they sell it as), Nooras have been arguably worse than PPP. When PPP came in power we had 25% inflation, the world was in a shitstorm with the global recession, there was a bomb blast a day and then later oil was at USD 140/barrel.

    Any good news under PML-N has been pure dumb luck and just being in the right position at the right time. Still they havent really capitalized

  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    Just skimmed through the article.

    I guess the article implies that Pakistan has a current account deficit too? Imports > Exports?

    How big of import is oil?
    PMLN govt is lucky that oil prices dropped massively. Pakistan saved $4.5 billion due to a steep fall in oil prices in fiscal year 2015-16.

    The State Bank of Pakistan reported that in FY16, the oil import bill fell to $7.667 billion compared to $12.166bn in FY15, a fall of $4.499bn or 37pc. The oil import bill in FY14 was $14.77bn.

    The yearly official data shows that total exports fell to $22bn in FY16 from $24bn in FY15.

    Source:
    http://www.dawn.com/news/1272751

    If you want official stats of External Trade Statistics of last 5 years visit this link http://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/...les/14.1_0.pdf


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    There are repayments not just interest (if i am not wrong repayments begins at the end of 2017). Back in 2013 we welcomed IMF again with open heart to get new loans and pay back previous loans.

    I was actually surprised when the news about current govt saying goodbye to IMF was all over media after getting the final payment a few months ago and there was no mention of how we are going to pay it back? Just like 2013? Our exports are already on decline and currently these loans and remittances were helping our economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    its an inevitability from what i can see. its a failed state. even if a competent government is put in place, it will inherit such a massive problem, it will be replaced by another corrupt regime etc etc

    ive held and expressed the opinion consistently that pakistan will be greece.

    its irrelevant really whether the burden in a particular year will be interest or repayment, the debt will have a maturity at some point, bridging loans will become usurious. in the meanwhile, generative capacity has collapsed whilst population has exploded - no income, and increasing costs. chronic under investment in education, industry and exports for decades is a generational problem which will take a decade plus to fix.

    this is why rooting out corruption has been the most important thing for the future viability of the country, and why i cant understand people who cant see this.
    The doom and gloom merchants have been saying similar for decades.

    If one was to believe them, then the country is about to shut down, and the government will be forced to sell off , bit-by-bit, chunks of Pakistani territory so as to raise the finance to pay off it's debt and keep the govt. functioning.

    There's a saying along the lines of "If you owe the bank £5,000 pounds and can't repay, you have a problem. If you own the bank £50 million pounds and you can't repay, the bank has a big problem" or words to that effect.

    Does anyone seriously think that the IMF and the external debtors, or even the worlds economic and political powers, will allow a country the size of Pakistan to default and crumble? The consequences will be such that it will make the problems in Iraq, Syria, Palestine all added together seem like child's play.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Trump bhai will help us.
    Trump bhai first need to help his arab buddies and also clean the mess in ME ;)


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  34. #194
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    If the SC go with the Sharifs the General has lost to the crooks.

  35. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    If the SC go with the Sharifs the General has lost to the crooks.
    Interesting...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The doom and gloom merchants have been saying similar for decades.

    If one was to believe them, then the country is about to shut down, and the government will be forced to sell off , bit-by-bit, chunks of Pakistani territory so as to raise the finance to pay off it's debt and keep the govt. functioning.

    There's a saying along the lines of "If you owe the bank £5,000 pounds and can't repay, you have a problem. If you own the bank £50 million pounds and you can't repay, the bank has a big problem" or words to that effect.

    Does anyone seriously think that the IMF and the external debtors, or even the worlds economic and political powers, will allow a country the size of Pakistan to default and crumble? The consequences will be such that it will make the problems in Iraq, Syria, Palestine all added together seem like child's play.
    ok - all that is a description of how a default scenario wont be armageddon. i agree with what you say, the problem wont be allowed to persist unconstrained. like in greece. but i think if you ask the average person in greece how 'not being allowed to default and crumble' is going for them, im sure you wont hear a favourable response.

    debt repayment is enslavement, and will be there for years. the common people will be bled to pay for mountains of debt which will take decades to pay off. no one is saying that in a worst case scenario, the country will be anarchy, it wont - modern defaults in this ay and age take the shape precisely of greece - de jure enslavement: and thats what pakistan is facing. im not sure being lackadaisical about it, or considering it not to be all that bad is a sensible approach to take. and as with all defaults, 'its always been ok in the past' is precisely the argument that fails when a default happens. its not a rational argument in any way, shape or form.

    its not difficult to see what you need to do to turn it around, or begin to. india has spent the last three decades buying and licensinbg technology, investing massively in education and in industry - and they have spent the last decade or so reaping the benefits.

    in terms of foreign debtors coming over and taking bits of pakstan - well thats precisely what has already been happening:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatisation_in_Pakistan

    https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/201.../****-f20.html

    http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/3174...-PIA-PSM-and-S

    "Pakistan assures IMF of privatizing PIA, PSM and State Life in 2016"

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    My friend you are one of the most intelligent posters on this forum and what you say is a basic truth, which your average PK( and many other countries) doesn't understand.
    wow, thats high praise. thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    PMLN govt is lucky that oil prices dropped massively. Pakistan saved $4.5 billion due to a steep fall in oil prices in fiscal year 2015-16.

    The State Bank of Pakistan reported that in FY16, the oil import bill fell to $7.667 billion compared to $12.166bn in FY15, a fall of $4.499bn or 37pc. The oil import bill in FY14 was $14.77bn.

    The yearly official data shows that total exports fell to $22bn in FY16 from $24bn in FY15.

    Source:
    http://www.dawn.com/news/1272751

    If you want official stats of External Trade Statistics of last 5 years visit this link http://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/...les/14.1_0.pdf

    100% correct. the malaise affected all raw materials, metals - pakistan benefitted from all of that. it wont last forever, crude is is already trading in a $40-50 range after dropping into the low 30's, and my guess it will settle in the 50-60 range. all of this will be a huge headwind for the country.

  38. #198
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    I'm not pro any particular political party in Pakistan, in fact I don't even follow Pakistani politics and know virtually nothing about the various political parties or politicians.

    Having said that, all I see in this thread is more or less what takes place in the political landscape of every country on earth that has a democratically elected government.

    ie
    The government and it's supporters take any and every new set of economic data and attempt to put a positive spin on it no matter how bad the indices ...
    .
    "Things are getting better ...."
    "We are on the right path ...."
    "We have made all these improvements since we came to power, and our future plans are even bigger ..."
    "Foreign firms are queuing up to invest here ..."

    Whilst the opposition will take every new set of figures, no matter how good or bad, and claim that the country is going down the drain

    "Everyone is going to lose their homes, businesses and possessions .... except the members of the government and it's supporters - who are all crooked. ..!
    "Everyone is going to starve, or be killed by rampaging gangs,... except them lot and and their friends.."
    "The country was a land of paradise before them lot came into power and ruined it ...."
    "We are going to be invaded by aliens until this crooked government is removed ..."
    and so on.

    OK, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the picture.

    Name any election, anywhere, in any democratic country, in which something along the lines above has not been used as arguments.

    The only thing this thread tells you is who supports the present government and the party in power, and who supports which of the opposition parties.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  39. #199
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    Didn't Pakistan just finish receiving and thus start repaying a loan to the IMF this year??

    No matter what way you see it, external debt rising at this scale isn't good and eventually Pakistan will find it difficult to borrow money on international markets or at least have poorer terms on its loans. While its true Pakistan wont suddenly find itself imploding at the same time no country or institution is going to keep lending more and more money as Pakistans debt grows and grows, may as well just burn the cash as it doesn't look like they'll ever get it paid back.


    See You Space Cowboy....

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    Didn't Pakistan just finish receiving and thus start repaying a loan to the IMF this year??

    No matter what way you see it, external debt rising at this scale isn't good and eventually Pakistan will find it difficult to borrow money on international markets or at least have poorer terms on its loans. While its true Pakistan wont suddenly find itself imploding at the same time no country or institution is going to keep lending more and more money as Pakistans debt grows and grows, may as well just burn the cash as it doesn't look like they'll ever get it paid back.
    What scale? Pakistan's GDP in 2020 will be above 330 billion$, 33% debt to GDP ratio isn't particularly high.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    What scale? Pakistan's GDP in 2020 will be above 330 billion$, 33% debt to GDP ratio isn't particularly high.
    That is just external debt. Check http://tribune.com.pk/story/1173193/...oars-rs22-5tr/


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    What scale? Pakistan's GDP in 2020 will be above 330 billion$, 33% debt to GDP ratio isn't particularly high.
    I love your naivety, the Nooras and AZ have also borrowed billions from the local banks.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    I love your naivety, the Nooras and AZ have also borrowed billions from the local banks.
    Billions? We are talking about around 23 to 24 trillion here. Last year alone saw an increase of Rs2.6 trillion.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  44. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Billions? We are talking about around 23 to 24 trillion here. Last year alone saw an increase of Rs2.6 trillion.
    But our Bro has defended the Nooras before and probably knew all this but alas cant bring himself to face the truth.

  45. #205
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    The only way out is to tax the living hell out of all these big business empires and zamindaars. However, unfortunately apart from MQM/PSP and Jamaat every single party is comprised of these zamindaars and businessmen.

    Pakistan's tax to GDP ratio is one of the worst in the world. Half our problems will ease if we have a competent FBR that is able to collect the money that is so desperately needed.



    Small anecdote: I was in Pakistan recently and was meeting a buddy of mine who in his young career has made quite big inroads into these big businesses, so he was invited to the wedding of Malik Riaz's second-in-command's son. This guy is the one who buys all the land for MR for him to build his Bahria Towns. My friend tells me it was the most lavish wedding he has ever been in, 30 days of festivities, hundreds of food dishes every day, elaborate hall decorations, protocol of Mercs and Beamers, you name it. Even Bill Gates won't have such an elaborate wedding as that guy.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  46. #206
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    FDI declines 48pc to $316m

    KARACHI: Foreign direct investment (FDI) fell 48 per cent year-on-year in the first four months of the fiscal year to $316.1 million, the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) said on Tuesday.

    But an increased foreign portfolio investment changed the overall position as total foreign investment jumped by 48pc in this period.

    The foreign investment of $1 billion in sukuk was included as foreign public investment, which improved the country’s foreign investment profile.

    However, the real investment or FDI dropped $294m in July-Oct on an annual basis. FDI has been falling for the last many years and the present government has not been able to bring any positive change.

    Independent economists have accused the government of pushing the country into isolation, which is visible from declining foreign investment.

    In contrast, Chinese investment claims a big chunk within the FDI pie, which shows that Pakistan depends largely on China for foreign inflows.

    Though Chinese FDI has declined substantially in the four-month period, it is still the top foreign investor with $146m or 46pc of entire FDI. China invested $276m in the same period of the last fiscal year.

    Analysts believe most countries have lost interest in Pakistan. Only a few nations are investing in Pakistan, but most of these investments are one-off inflows. The United States invested $64m in the four-month period against $51m that it withdrew during the same period of the last fiscal year.

    FDI from the United Kingdom and the United Arab Emirates dropped 42pc and 17pc, respectively, during the period under review. There is no significant investment from any other country in Pakistan.

    The government cites many reasons for declining foreign investments.

    But its failure on this front has led to serious questions about the international isolation of Pakistan. To hide its failure, the government has been emphasising that the Chinese investment is the real game-changer in both Pakistan and the overall region.

    Declining exports and dwindling remittances have already forced the government to borrow from the international market, which seems to be the only available option to service foreign debt accumulated in past years.

    As for the proceeds of the sukuk auction held at the end of September that apparently improved the overall picture of foreign investment in Pakistan, analysts said such inflows should not be confused with FDI.

    The government has recently announced that it will borrow another $500m through sukuk.


    Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1296570


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  47. #207
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    National debt, liabilities cross Rs2.2 trillion

    Pakistan's overall debt and liabilities have soared to an all-time high and has crossed Rs2.2 trillion ─ an increase of Rs0.8tr since the PML-N government came to power, said the recently released National Data summary released by the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP).

    The SBP summary shows that on September 30, 2016, the country’s overall domestic debt and liabilities stood at Rs14.79tr, whereas the external debt and liabilities stood at $72.98 million on June 30, 2016.

    In the present government’s three years, the domestic debt and liabilities showed an increase of Rs5,255bn and external debt more than Rs2,500bn.

    According to official documents in June 2013, the overall debt and liabilities were at the level of Rs14.32tr under which domestic debt and liabilities stood at Rs9.52tr and external debt and liabilities were recorded at Rs4.8tr.

    SBP data on Sept 30, under the heading of central government debt, mentioned that domestic debt stood at Rs14.39tr in which long term debt stood at Rs7.9tr and short term debt stood at Rs6.48tr.

    The data further shows that external debt was recorded at $72.98bn on June 30 this year, out of which $61.36bn was public debt, Public Sector Enterprises (PSE) guaranteed debt stood at $1,27 million, PSE non-guaranteed debt was $1,48 million.

    During the same period, scheduled banks’ borrowing amounted to $1,638 million, non-resident deposits stood at $1,088 million, private non-guaranteed $3,293 million, private non guaranteed bonds at $12 million and debt liabilities to direct investors for inter-company debt stood at $2,853 million.

    The PML-N government has so far been unable in bringing the debt to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) ratio to within statutory limits of 60 per cent.

    The overall debt pile reached around 68pc which is a violation of Fiscal Responsibility and Debt Limitation Act 2005, which binds the government to keep the total public debt below 60pc of GDP.

    According to official documents, in 1999 the country’s over debt and liabilities were recorded at Rs2,946bn of which domestic debt stood at Rs1,389bn and external debt was Rs1,557bn.

    In 2013 when the PML-N government came into power the country’s overall debt stood at Rs14,318bn of which domestic debt was recorded at Rs9,522bn and external debt was Rs4,800bn.


    Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1297545/nat...-rs22-trillion


    #RoshanPakistan


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  48. #208
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    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  49. #209
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    brace yourselves for the train wreck....

  50. #210
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    Pakistan obtained $3b in loans in last four months, including $1 billion in Sukuk Bonds, which were floated by pledging motorway in collateral

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has obtained $3 billion in new foreign loans in the past four months, and alarmingly three-fourths of the borrowing is for meeting budget financing requirements and building foreign currency reserves.

    The foreign economic assistance from July through October this year stood at $2.95 billion, according to official statistics. However, the government obtained $2.2 billion or 75% of the total loans for non-productive purposes.

    The $2.2 billion borrowings include $1 billion in Sukuk Bonds, which were floated by pledging the Lahore-Islamabad motorway in collateral, and $900 million from foreign commercial banks. Both these loans were aimed at meeting the needs of budget financing and forex reserves.

    Project loans amounted to only $750 million during this period, showed official statistics.

    The $3 billion in loans were about 38% of the annual economic assistance of $8 billion that the government has projected to receive during the current fiscal year 2016-17.

    Foreign loans are only productive when these are utilised for asset building as this provides a source of earnings to return the loans, said Dr Kasier Bengali, a renowned economist of the country.

    His work suggested that with a shift in focus from project to programme loans, the country’s infrastructure is completely ignored and it has started collapsing.

    Bengali has argued in the past that as long as the rate of return is at least 1% higher than the cost of borrowing, foreign debt does not create trouble in debt management. However, most of the fresh borrowings are going for meeting budget financing needs, which adds burden on the government.

    State Bank of Pakistan’s former governor Shahid Kardar has also recently highlighted the issue of high cost of borrowings compared with the returns that the central bank gets by placing these deposits.

    After reaching a peak of $19.5 billion, the SBP’s official foreign currency reserves have slipped below $19 billion again – a result of reduction in exports and remittances receipts and increase in foreign debt repayments.

    During the past three-and-a-half years, the government has been subjected to severe criticism for acquiring expensive foreign debt and increasing the overall debt mountain. A recent report of the finance ministry also indicates that Pakistan’s debt sustainability indicators have worsened in the past one year.

    Another notable pattern was that Pakistan’s traditional bilateral sources of borrowings and grants were drying up. Out of 12 traditional bilateral partners, nine did not disburse any sum during the July-October period.

    These include France, South Korea, Norway, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) and European Union. China disbursed $411.5 million loans from July to October. Most of Chinese financial assistance has been shifted to off the budget.

    Beijing gave $216 million loan for construction of Sukkur-Multan motorway under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). Another sum of $97 million has been released for Thaikot-Havelian section of the CPEC route.

    The disbursements from the traditional multilateral partners also remained slow during the first four months of this fiscal year. The World Bank released $85.5 million, which was just 5.6% of the annual estimates.

    The Asian Development Bank disbursed $142.8 million or 13.6% of the annual estimates. The Islamic Development Bank has given $242 million including $212.4 million short-term expensive loan.

    The United Kingdom gave $76.2 million in grant for Benazir Income Support Programme and education projects of Punjab and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The project grant from the United States stood at only $27 million in the first four months.

    Due to drying up of non-debt creating sources and increasing infrastructure development requirements, Pakistan’s debt has been gradually increasing in absolute terms.

    Two renowned economists, former finance minister Dr Hafiz Pasha and former director general debt Dr Ashfaque Hasan Khan, have projected that Pakistan’s external debt to grow to $110-billion by 2019-20.

    However, the Finance Ministry said it was naïve to assume that the external debt would grow to $110 billion by 2019-20 with a possible assumption that there would be no repayments during this period.


    Source: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1245705/...t-four-months/


    #RoshanPakistan


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  51. #211
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    uberkoen Bhaee ye hai wo Aali shaan development, vision, political maturity.

    MashaAllah 3 billion dollars Loan taken in last 3 months.

    Berhee taraqqi horai hai. Sambhaali nai jarai.


    godzilla has nailed GOP in some threads.

  52. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Pakistan obtained $3b in loans in last four months, including $1 billion in Sukuk Bonds, which were floated by pledging motorway in collateral

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has obtained $3 billion in new foreign loans in the past four months, and alarmingly three-fourths of the borrowing is for meeting budget financing requirements and building foreign currency reserves.

    The foreign economic assistance from July through October this year stood at $2.95 billion, according to official statistics. However, the government obtained $2.2 billion or 75% of the total loans for non-productive purposes.

    The $2.2 billion borrowings include $1 billion in Sukuk Bonds, which were floated by pledging the Lahore-Islamabad motorway in collateral, and $900 million from foreign commercial banks. Both these loans were aimed at meeting the needs of budget financing and forex reserves.

    Project loans amounted to only $750 million during this period, showed official statistics.

    The $3 billion in loans were about 38% of the annual economic assistance of $8 billion that the government has projected to receive during the current fiscal year 2016-17.

    Foreign loans are only productive when these are utilised for asset building as this provides a source of earnings to return the loans, said Dr Kasier Bengali, a renowned economist of the country.

    His work suggested that with a shift in focus from project to programme loans, the country’s infrastructure is completely ignored and it has started collapsing.

    Bengali has argued in the past that as long as the rate of return is at least 1% higher than the cost of borrowing, foreign debt does not create trouble in debt management. However, most of the fresh borrowings are going for meeting budget financing needs, which adds burden on the government.

    State Bank of Pakistan’s former governor Shahid Kardar has also recently highlighted the issue of high cost of borrowings compared with the returns that the central bank gets by placing these deposits.

    After reaching a peak of $19.5 billion, the SBP’s official foreign currency reserves have slipped below $19 billion again – a result of reduction in exports and remittances receipts and increase in foreign debt repayments.

    During the past three-and-a-half years, the government has been subjected to severe criticism for acquiring expensive foreign debt and increasing the overall debt mountain. A recent report of the finance ministry also indicates that Pakistan’s debt sustainability indicators have worsened in the past one year.

    Another notable pattern was that Pakistan’s traditional bilateral sources of borrowings and grants were drying up. Out of 12 traditional bilateral partners, nine did not disburse any sum during the July-October period.

    These include France, South Korea, Norway, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) and European Union. China disbursed $411.5 million loans from July to October. Most of Chinese financial assistance has been shifted to off the budget.

    Beijing gave $216 million loan for construction of Sukkur-Multan motorway under the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). Another sum of $97 million has been released for Thaikot-Havelian section of the CPEC route.

    The disbursements from the traditional multilateral partners also remained slow during the first four months of this fiscal year. The World Bank released $85.5 million, which was just 5.6% of the annual estimates.

    The Asian Development Bank disbursed $142.8 million or 13.6% of the annual estimates. The Islamic Development Bank has given $242 million including $212.4 million short-term expensive loan.

    The United Kingdom gave $76.2 million in grant for Benazir Income Support Programme and education projects of Punjab and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The project grant from the United States stood at only $27 million in the first four months.

    Due to drying up of non-debt creating sources and increasing infrastructure development requirements, Pakistan’s debt has been gradually increasing in absolute terms.

    Two renowned economists, former finance minister Dr Hafiz Pasha and former director general debt Dr Ashfaque Hasan Khan, have projected that Pakistan’s external debt to grow to $110-billion by 2019-20.

    However, the Finance Ministry said it was naïve to assume that the external debt would grow to $110 billion by 2019-20 with a possible assumption that there would be no repayments during this period.


    Source: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1245705/...t-four-months/


    #RoshanPakistan
    Wonder what this country would be like without 10 billion$ of annual remittances and 10 million less people to employ and feed when it can't survive without loans to build up foreign reserve and foreign exchange deficit.

    Yet elites like @Slog and @Mamoon will have you believe that expats are doing nothing for Pakistan it is actually they, by ''patriotically'' remaining in the country and carrying on leeching it dry as they have been doing for the past 70 years. Bizarro world.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Wonder what this country would be like without 10 billion$ of annual remittances and 10 million less people to employ and feed. Yet elites like @Slog and @Mamoon will have you believe that expats are doing nothing for Pakistan it is actually they, by ''patriotically'' remaining in the country and carrying on leeching it dry as they have been doing for the past 70 years. Bizarro world.
    Not 10 it's around $18-19 billion per year now in remittances. My full respect for overseas Pakistanis because my country is surviving on remittances and loans while the exports are on decline every year. Just decrease these remittances by 20% and see the result...

    We already don't have jobs for youth here so imagine even half million coming back from saudi out of those 2.5 million pakistanis working there...
    Last edited by WebGuru; 27th November 2016 at 21:10.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  54. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Not 10 it's around $18-19 billion per year now in remittances. My full respect for overseas Pakistanis because my country is surviving on remittances and loans while the exports are on decline every year. Just decrease these remittances by 20% and see the result...
    Yes, and most of the remittances actually come from the people in UAE and SA who do very hard work and often live in horrid conditions. And these are the people who weren't very fortunate back home, which means that a) it would be very hard on Pakistan had they not left b) their families are poor and depend a lot on their remittances.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  55. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Yes, and most of the remittances actually come from the people in UAE and SA who do very hard work and often live in horrid conditions. And these are the people who weren't very fortunate back home, which means that a) it would be very hard on Pakistan had they not left b) their families are poor and depend a lot on their remittances.
    SA is on top of the list i think last year $5b came from SA in remittances. The economic crisis in SA should be a worry for us thousands of workers returned home in last few months let's hope things improve there otherwise we will be in a lose-lose situation. no jobs for the people coming back and decrease in remittances


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Wonder what this country would be like without 10 billion$ of annual remittances and 10 million less people to employ and feed when it can't survive without loans to build up foreign reserve and foreign exchange deficit.

    Yet elites like @Slog and @Mamoon will have you believe that expats are doing nothing for Pakistan it is actually they, by ''patriotically'' remaining in the country and carrying on leeching it dry as they have been doing for the past 70 years. Bizarro world.
    The problem with your line of thinking is that the numbers just dont support your claim:

    Most of these remittances are coming from the Gulf. And the people sending these are poor laborers and blue collar workers.

    Negligible amounts come from UK and rest of Europe. US is higher than these countries but still low.

    So the point is that the expat populations which chest thump the most dont do jack. Which is why I call them out here. In PP the impression put forward is that UK expats are the biggest contributors whereas they are not even close

    The Gulf workers send most of these remittances. Also its not really out of the goodness of their heart to help the country but in fact it is to supplement their extended families in Pakistan.
    Last edited by Slog; 28th November 2016 at 04:09.

  57. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    The problem with your line of thinking is that the numbers just dont support your claim:

    Most of these remittances are coming from the Gulf. And the people sending these are poor laborers and blue collar workers.

    Negligible amounts come from UK and rest of Europe. US is higher than these countries but still low.

    So the point is that the expat populations which chest thump the most dont do jack. Which is why I call them out here. In PP the impression put forward is that UK expats are the biggest contributors whereas they are not even close

    The Gulf workers send most of these remittances. Also its not really out of the goodness of their heart to help the country but in fact it is to supplement their extended families in Pakistan.




    This is the most important point. Lol at the chest thumping of the expats. Let's all move out of the country and send money back home

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    The problem with your line of thinking is that the numbers just dont support your claim:

    Most of these remittances are coming from the Gulf. And the people sending these are poor laborers and blue collar workers.

    Negligible amounts come from UK and rest of Europe. US is higher than these countries but still low.

    So the point is that the expat populations which chest thump the most dont do jack. Which is why I call them out here. In PP the impression put forward is that UK expats are the biggest contributors whereas they are not even close

    The Gulf workers send most of these remittances. Also its not really out of the goodness of their heart to help the country but in fact it is to supplement their extended families in Pakistan.
    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Yes, and most of the remittances actually come from the people in UAE and SA who do very hard work and often live in horrid conditions. And these are the people who weren't very fortunate back home, which means that a) it would be very hard on Pakistan had they not left b) their families are poor and depend a lot on their remittances.
    Nice try.

    And, as WebG mentionned, the amount is now around 20 bils so even a 10% difference is massive. There is also the hawala system which means that it's hard to say what the true proportions.

    As for the last point, nobody contributes to the economy of a country out of the goodness of their heart. You think people contributing taxes in the west do so out of the goodness of their heart? Yet they are the ones sustaining their economy and the social programs of their country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    [/b]



    This is the most important point. Lol at the chest thumping of the expats. Let's all move out of the country and send money back home
    No need to disparage others because you can't be bothered to get out of your comfort zone. People who have no comfort zone don't have the luxury of these nakhrays.

    Chest-thumping? Aren't you the one who acts like staying in Pakistan is a humanitarian mission on your part?


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Nice try.

    And, as WebG mentionned, the amount is now around 20 bils so even a 10% difference is massive. There is also the hawala system which means that it's hard to say what the true proportions.

    As for the last point, nobody contributes to the economy of a country out of the goodness of their heart. You think people contributing taxes in the west do so out of the goodness of their heart? Yet they are the ones sustaining their economy and the social programs of their country.

    I'm sorry the numbers just don't back your assertion

    Btw There is also an argument that remittances lead to a decline in productivity in the home country

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    No need to disparage others because you can't be bothered to get out of your comfort zone. People who have no comfort zone don't have the luxury of these nakhrays.

    Chest-thumping? Aren't you the one who acts like staying in Pakistan is a humanitarian mission on your part?
    It is not a humanitarian mission. However, when expat Pakistanis try to but down your patriotism and question the role you are playing for your country, and how they are doing great service by sending money to their families, you have to show them the reality.

    The only comfort-zone is living in the West for good and then showing your patriotism and care for the country over the internet. Isn't it hilarious that people start acting patriotic as soon as they settle abroad?

    Those who live in Pakistan or go abroad for education only hardly feel the need of telling others on social media how patriotic they are. I have noticed that it happens with expats only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is not a humanitarian mission. However, when expat Pakistanis try to but down your patriotism and question the role you are playing for your country, and how they are doing great service by sending money to their families, you have to show them the reality.

    The only comfort-zone is living in the West for good and then showing your patriotism and care for the country over the internet. Isn't it hilarious that people start acting patriotic as soon as they settle abroad?

    Those who live in Pakistan or go abroad for education only hardly feel the need of telling others on social media how patriotic they are. I have noticed that it happens with expats only.
    I do not agree with all of your opinions but on immigration I feel you are spot on. Never understand the sudden affection for the motherland that all non-residents feel if they can return yet don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is not a humanitarian mission. However, when expat Pakistanis try to but down your patriotism and question the role you are playing for your country, and how they are doing great service by sending money to their families, you have to show them the reality.

    The only comfort-zone is living in the West for good and then showing your patriotism and care for the country over the internet. Isn't it hilarious that people start acting patriotic as soon as they settle abroad?

    Those who live in Pakistan or go abroad for education only hardly feel the need of telling others on social media how patriotic they are. I have noticed that it happens with expats only.
    Patriotism or non-patriotism has nothing to do with it. I never pretended to be patriotic, Pakistan is not my country. I am only talking about the facts here: Pakistan, a country with famelic exports and 8% unemployment, is propped up by the 20 bils of remittances a year it gets.

    You know just as well as I do why you don't want to leave Pakistan. No need to lie to yourself about a higher purpose.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rollingstoned View Post
    I do not agree with all of your opinions but on immigration I feel you are spot on. Never understand the sudden affection for the motherland that all non-residents feel if they can return yet don't.
    We don't return to Pakistan because we don't owe anything to it. Life is far better here so why should we suffer by going back to Pakistan? The ''chest-thumping'', as Mamoon calls it, is about setting the records straight for the thankless Pakistanis who think they are doing it on their own.


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    We don't return to Pakistan because we don't owe anything to it. Life is far better here so why should we suffer by going back to Pakistan? The ''chest-thumping'', as Mamoon calls it, is about setting the records straight for the thankless Pakistanis who think they are doing it on their own.
    You have made flip flops in your story within the matter of 10 posts

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Patriotism or non-patriotism has nothing to do with it. I never pretended to be patriotic, Pakistan is not my country. I am only talking about the facts here: Pakistan, a country with famelic exports and 8% unemployment, is propped up by the 20 bils of remittances a year it gets.

    You know just as well as I do why you don't want to leave Pakistan. No need to lie to yourself about a higher purpose.
    Economics doesnt work in such a binary manner

    Most of the shortfall will be met elsewhere if x doesnt happen because there are multiple paths to y. I could write an essay on this as I am well qualified to but its not in either party's interest. There are many costs associated to this endeavor of remittances as well such as lowering productivity, drain of talent etc etc.

    Anyways the point I simply want to make is this. You see the 'chest thumping' regarding how remittances are running Pakistan and how the country would go under without them from British Pakistanis, Europe based Pakistanis and to a lesser extent North American based Pakistanis (and you are either naive or ignorant to say it doesnt happen). However majority of the contribution is not from these groups. It is the poor Gulf workers who neither know or brag about remittances and who return to Pakistan normally anyway.So its a bit rich and downright hilarious to see this oft repeated claim on PP which you made because a) the numbers dont support the claim and b) its very ironic to see the expat groups making those claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is not a humanitarian mission. However, when expat Pakistanis try to but down your patriotism and question the role you are playing for your country, and how they are doing great service by sending money to their families, you have to show them the reality.

    The only comfort-zone is living in the West for good and then showing your patriotism and care for the country over the internet. Isn't it hilarious that people start acting patriotic as soon as they settle abroad?

    Those who live in Pakistan or go abroad for education only hardly feel the need of telling others on social media how patriotic they are. I have noticed that it happens with expats only.
    Quite nice of you to extricate yourself from being an expat. Unfortunately, no matter how you label it you are an expat just like the rest of us and all that you posted equally applies to you.

    When you go back to Pakistan you can talk about expats as 'them' and not 'us'.

    Embrace your reality


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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Economics doesnt work in such a binary manner

    Most of the shortfall will be met elsewhere if x doesnt happen because there are multiple paths to y. I could write an essay on this as I am well qualified to but its not in either party's interest. There are many costs associated to this endeavor of remittances as well such as lowering productivity, drain of talent etc etc.

    Anyways the point I simply want to make is this. You see the 'chest thumping' regarding how remittances are running Pakistan and how the country would go under without them from British Pakistanis, Europe based Pakistanis and to a lesser extent North American based Pakistanis (and you are either naive or ignorant to say it doesnt happen). However majority of the contribution is not from these groups. It is the poor Gulf workers who neither know or brag about remittances and who return to Pakistan normally anyway.So its a bit rich and downright hilarious to see this oft repeated claim on PP which you made because a) the numbers dont support the claim and b) its very ironic to see the expat groups making those claims.
    You are flip-fopping over the course of a single post. On one side, you are talking about ''drain of talent'' ''lowered productivity'' and on the other you are saying that remittances actually come from unskilled labourers. Not to mention, also, that this talent is formed in the West, Pakistan did little to nothing in creating the talent that is supposedly being drained.

    And, secondly, I was the first on this thread to mention the contributions of Gulf workers so I don't see how I am ignoring that the majority of remittances comes from them. The discussion is about remittances as a whole, not about any specific group. Of course, you are aware of it since you are trying to get around this flaw in your argument by making the unsubstantied claim that they don't brag about it or all return to Pakistan.
    Last edited by endymion248; 29th November 2016 at 18:23.


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    You are flip-fopping over the course of a single post. On one side, you are talking about ''drain of talent'' ''lowered productivity'' and on the other you are saying that remittances actually come from unskilled labourers.

    And, secondly, I was the first on this thread to mention the contributions of Gulf workers so I don't see how I am ignoring that the majority of remittances comes from them. The discussion is about remittances as a whole, not about any specific group. Of course, you are aware of it since you are trying to get around this flaw in your argument by making the unsubstantied claim that they don't brag about it or all return to Pakistan.
    That is actual fact.

    Also Gulf nations dont provide citizenship anyway so by the time most are unable to work and put in the effort for the hard manual labor their recourse is to return home. Unfortunately its without much savings too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    That is actual fact.

    Also Gulf nations dont provide citizenship anyway so by the time most are unable to work and put in the effort for the hard manual labor their recourse is to return home. Unfortunately its without much savings too
    @Endymion

    its actually shows your naivety that you think manual laborers in the Gulf would ever brag about remittances

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    That is actual fact.

    Also Gulf nations dont provide citizenship anyway so by the time most are unable to work and put in the effort for the hard manual labor their recourse is to return home. Unfortunately its without much savings too
    That is only about the part where they return, not about the part that they don't ''brag''.

    Gulf nations don't give citizenship, that doesn't keep old Pakistanis from living there with their kids. I am sure you know of aged Pakistanis living in the gulf, I know I do.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    @Endymion

    its actually shows your naivety that you think manual laborers in the Gulf would ever brag about remittances
    And why exactly would that be?


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    You are flip-fopping over the course of a single post. On one side, you are talking about ''drain of talent'' ''lowered productivity'' and on the other you are saying that remittances actually come from unskilled labourers. Not to mention, also, that this talent is formed in the West, Pakistan did little to nothing in creating the talent that is supposedly being drained.
    .
    Again this is senseless logic on your part

    I have no qualms and dont even contest that any talent may be cultivated in the West and hence theres no reason to expect any remittances or the sort from that populace. I am just pointing out the observation on PP that it is these very exact group of expats in the West who chest-thump most regarding remittances lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Quite nice of you to extricate yourself from being an expat. Unfortunately, no matter how you label it you are an expat just like the rest of us and all that you posted equally applies to you.

    When you go back to Pakistan you can talk about expats as 'them' and not 'us'.

    Embrace your reality
    Legally speaking you are not an expat (actually, immigrant in the context of this discussion) if you are abroad as a student

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Again this is senseless logic on your part

    I have no qualms and dont even contest that any talent may be cultivated in the West and hence theres no reason to expect any remittances or the sort from that populace. I am just pointing out the observation on PP that it is these very exact group of expats in the West who chest-thump most regarding remittances lol.
    If you agree that this talent is cultivated in the West then you have to agree that there can be no ''loss of talent'' from expatriation as, without the expatriation, the talent wouldn't have existed in the first place. So, the argument that remittances are costly because they result in ''loss of talent'' have two flaws. One that most of the remittances come from unskilled workers and two that the skilled workers were cultivated in the West.

    Which means that, in the end, we just have 20 bils entering into a country with a GDP of 250 bils, exports of 25 bils and foreign reserves that are built by loans. And still no proof that these remittances are actually hurting Pakistan instead of proping it up. Which is why you'll excuse the expats if they carry on ''chest-thumping''.


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    That is only about the part where they return, not about the part that they don't ''brag''.

    Gulf nations don't give citizenship, that doesn't keep old Pakistanis from living there with their kids. I am sure you know of aged Pakistanis living in the gulf, I know I do.
    I am talking of the manual laborers and unskilled workers here. Majority dont live there and infact work there solo while their family is in Pak. They are the ones who send most remittances too. Compared to the similar group of immigrants in the West (taxi drivers, or the immigrants of the 60s), they DO end up staying because citizenship opens many paths for their children as well as state benefits. No such situation with the unskilled workers in the Gulf for whom its best option to return.

    The ones who stay normally are the ones you are referring to there are usually the well off ones who have their families there and dont even need to send remittances because most of their family is with them and they are somewhat well off in Pak anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Legally speaking you are not an expat (actually, immigrant in the context of this discussion) if you are abroad as a student
    Generally speaking, most people go abroad for studies since it is the easiest, most sure-shot way of gaining immigration. Majority who go abroad always claim they will come back (and have a spout of patriotism in their first couple of years) but once they near graduation or gain employment there they close the Pakistan chapter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    If you agree that this talent is cultivated in the West then you have to agree that there can be no ''loss of talent'' from expatriation as, without the expatriation, the talent wouldn't have existed in the first place. So, the argument that remittances are costly because they result in ''loss of talent'' have two flaws. One that most of the remittances come from unskilled workers and two that the skilled workers were cultivated in the West.

    Which means that, in the end, we just have 20 bils entering into a country with a GDP of 250 bils, exports of 25 bils and foreign reserves that are built by loans. And still no proof that these remittances are actually hurting Pakistan instead of proping it up. Which is why you'll excuse the expats if they carry on ''chest-thumping''.
    Asides from the issues pointed above, You'll have to excuse me from laughing when I see that the expat groups which contribute least to this phenomenon are the ones chest thumping the most

    And if there is any merit for chest thumping, the ones who are mostly responsible for it dont even know about it and are just sending money home to their family members.

    (also way to miss the unproductivity point. It was more in relation to the family members who stop contributing to the economy and just wait for the check from Saudi.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Generally speaking, most people go abroad for studies since it is the easiest, most sure-shot way of gaining immigration. Majority who go abroad always claim they will come back (and have a spout of patriotism in their first couple of years) but once they near graduation or gain employment there they close the Pakistan chapter.
    Well you can count me out of that group so cant say its been necessarily my experience :-)

    (did work for a few years but always wanted to return)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I am talking of the manual laborers and unskilled workers here. Majority dont live there and infact work there solo while their family is in Pak. They are the ones who send most remittances too. Compared to the similar group of immigrants in the West (taxi drivers, or the immigrants of the 60s), they DO end up staying because citizenship opens many paths for their children as well as state benefits. No such situation with the unskilled workers in the Gulf for whom its best option to return.

    The ones who stay normally are the ones you are referring to there are usually the well off ones who have their families there and dont even need to send remittances because most of their family is with them and they are somewhat well off in Pak anyway.
    Just because they have their family there with them doesn't mean they don't send remittances for their extended family. Not to mention that the well-off ones invest money in Pakistan both in real estate and in businesses, which is also a non-negligible impact.

    Secondly, you are again shooting from the hip by saying that most of the remittance money comes from unskilled labourer who don't even live there. You are just basing yourself on a stereotype here. Truth is there are as many situations as there are Pakistanis living in the Gulf. There are well-off people who send money, there are middle class people who send money, often office workers. There are labourers who improved their social situation by rising up in the construction business (still under the tutelage of an arab as that's the law there). And all more or less send money.


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