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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Asides from the issues pointed above, You'll have to excuse me from laughing when I see that the expat groups which contribute least to this phenomenon are the ones chest thumping the most

    And if there is any merit for chest thumping, the ones who are mostly responsible for it dont even know about it and are just sending money home to their family members.

    (also way to miss the unproductivity point. It was more in relation to the family members who stop contributing to the economy and just wait for the check from Saudi.)
    If we are going to divide ''expats'' into specifics then I can afford far more chest-thumping than the majority of people living in the Gulf, alhamdulillah. But I won't, because this is not about me or Western expats (who send 9 billions yearly), Pakistanis are thankless towards all expats. Proof being that you and Mamoon have always disparaged ''expats'' as a general group. This distinction with the Gulf you have only started making when shown through numbers the absurdity of your position that Pakistan isn't propped up by remittances.

    (You are the one who used the word ''Talent drain''. Explain to me how ''talent drain'' is someone not working because they are receiving a check)


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Generally speaking, most people go abroad for studies since it is the easiest, most sure-shot way of gaining immigration. Majority who go abroad always claim they will come back (and have a spout of patriotism in their first couple of years) but once they near graduation or gain employment there they close the Pakistan chapter.
    Until world oil prices crash


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Legally speaking you are not an expat (actually, immigrant in the context of this discussion) if you are abroad as a student
    Residents are not students.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    If we are going to divide ''expats'' into specifics then I can afford far more chest-thumping than the majority of people living in the Gulf, alhamdulillah. But I won't, because this is not about me or Western expats (who send 9 billions yearly), Pakistanis are thankless towards all expats. Proof being that you and Mamoon have always disparaged ''expats'' as a general group. This distinction with the Gulf you have only started making when shown through numbers the absurdity of your position that Pakistan isn't propped up by remittances.

    (You are the one who used the word ''Talent drain''. Explain to me how ''talent drain'' is someone not working because they are receiving a check)
    I can actually point to several posts in the past where I have made this distinction with remittances in the Gulf and outside.

    Btw.... In past on PP it used to be a weekly topic on how British pakistanis were making pak stay afloat and on several of those threads ive made the same points ive made here. And actually cited papers and statistics back then

    so ts harly a new position

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Until world oil prices crash
    haha do you know sth i dont?

    persoally speaking world oil price crash was a bit of a windfall for me esp as a guy a year out of college.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Residents are not students.
    huh? Actually i dont know mamoon's situation.

    by the looks of it going by syeds post it seems he has moved to US? wth lol!

    resident you mean PR or is this the medicine term?

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I can actually point to several posts in the past where I have made this distinction with remittances in the Gulf and outside.

    Btw.... In past on PP it used to be a weekly topic on how British pakistanis were making pak stay afloat and on several of those threads ive made the same points ive made here. And actually cited papers and statistics back then

    so ts harly a new position
    Their position is not unfair if we assume that they are talking about BritPaks only and not about expats as a whole. British Pakistanis are the second largest group after Gulf remittances. Over a whole amount of 20 bil remittances (and investments which are not counted in the amount), the sudden disappearance of that amount (which could be anywhere between 5 to 10 billion $) would be a catastrophe for the fragile failed economy of Pakistan. And you yourself have helped me realize how fragile with your numerous exposes on how PML-N claims are fraud and how they are taking the country to abyss.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Just because they have their family there with them doesn't mean they don't send remittances for their extended family. Not to mention that the well-off ones invest money in Pakistan both in real estate and in businesses, which is also a non-negligible impact.

    Secondly, you are again shooting from the hip by saying that most of the remittance money comes from unskilled labourer who don't even live there. You are just basing yourself on a stereotype here. Truth is there are as many situations as there are Pakistanis living in the Gulf. There are well-off people who send money, there are middle class people who send money, often office workers. There are labourers who improved their social situation by rising up in the construction business (still under the tutelage of an arab as that's the law there). And all more or less send money.
    its pretty hilarious that you accuse someone of 'shooting from the hip' and then you do the exact same

    Ill admit and id kinda said it that i am speaking from my observations and experiences of people I know and these are likely a greater quantum as Ive lived in Pak and met people from all strata who are based in the Gulf. Anyways, If that is shooting from the hip then arent your claims the same lol. Esp considering you have explicity cited 'people I know' in an earlier post. Or do you have a statistical break up to prove your claim?

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Their position is not unfair if we assume that they are talking about BritPaks only and not about expats as a whole. British Pakistanis are the second largest group after Gulf remittances. Over a whole amount of 20 bil remittances (and investments which are not counted in the amount), the sudden disappearance of that amount (which could be anywhere between 5 to 10 billion $) would be a catastrophe for the fragile failed economy of Pakistan. And you yourself have helped me realize how fragile with your numerous exposes on how PML-N claims are fraud and how they are taking the country to abyss.
    Ill also do an expose on how remittances cant prop up a nation soon and at best are a short term fix and at worst, a long term hell.

    Watch this space! :arthur

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    its pretty hilarious that you accuse someone of 'shooting from the hip' and then you do the exact same

    Ill admit and id kinda said it that i am speaking from my observations and experiences of people I know and these are likely a greater quantum as Ive lived in Pak and met people from all strata who are based in the Gulf. Anyways, If that is shooting from the hip then arent your claims the same lol. Esp considering you have explicity cited 'people I know' in an earlier post. Or do you have a statistical break up to prove your claim?
    Well, the thing is that I didn't make any claims about the profile of remittances or the people who are there. I acknowledged that there is diversity among the people living in the Gulf (hardly a tall claim) and I only used two claims: the 20 billion figure and the 5-10 billions from BritPaks. Neither of which you contested.

    Saying that all Gulf remittances come from one profile (labourer whose family is back home and who will go back to pakistan and who never brags about sending money back home) is however a tall claim. Maybe the term ''shooting from the hip'' is needlessly aggressive but surely you have to acknowledge that you presented a simplistic stereotype to fit your narrative.
    Last edited by endymion248; 29th November 2016 at 18:25.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Well, the thing is that I didn't make any claims about the profile of remittances or the people who are there. I acknowledged that there is diversity among the people living in the Gulf (hardly a tall claim) and I only used two claims: the 20 billion figure and the export figures for Pakistan. Neither of which you contested.

    Saying that all Gulf remittances come from one profile (labourer whose family is back home and who will go back to pakistan and who never brags about sending money back home) is however a tall claim. Maybe the term ''shooting from the hip'' is needlessly aggressive but surely you have to acknowledge that you presented a simplistic stereotype to fit your narrative.
    You were the one presenting a simplistic argument by stating as if the whole expat group was a monolith and everyone could lay a claim to the figure of remittances whereas this is not the case....

    Also Id suggest you to look into literature regarding remittances and its effect on economic growth as it seems you have a rudimentary understanding at best. There is a reason why many of the poorest countries have the highest remittances yet dont see any substantial improvement in their stock year on year (This is besides the argument here but still interesting and informative from a general knowledge perspective if you are so inclined)

  12. #252
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    What is sad is that the Pakistani citizens have been kept in the dark for way too long.

    This video says the finance minister fudges GDP figures, and he even lied to the PM that he got the best FM award from IMF and the world bank

    Last edited by Moh@n; 30th November 2016 at 19:41.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    What is sad is that the Pakistani citizens have been kept in the dark for way too long.

    This video says the finance minister fudges GDP figures, and he even lied to the PM that he got the best FM award from IMF and the world bank

    PMLN and this FM Dar is exposed hundreds of times but nothing happened and nothing is going to happen if these blind voters keep voting for them they deserve the worst...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  14. #254
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    My close relatives have worked in Pakistan Bureau of Statistics.


    This fudging of figures has been going on since last 30 odd years.


    The minister meets the Secretary does Phoon Phaan gets angry and says he isn't satisfied with the figures and by Hook or Crook change them. The Secretary calls certain directors and asks him to Up the figures.



    GDP growth in Musharaff Era did improve but what was being claimed wasn't actual figure.




    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.
    Are you sure is is jamaatiya? Because Dar is doing mureedi of different derbaars and peers from decades.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  16. #256
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    Koi sheram hoti hai koi haya hoti he...

    Last edited by WebGuru; 15th December 2016 at 18:20.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Koi sheram hoti hai koi haya hoti he...

    translation please?

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    translation please?
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    My close relatives have worked in Pakistan Bureau of Statistics.


    This fudging of figures has been going on since last 30 odd years.


    The minister meets the Secretary does Phoon Phaan gets angry and says he isn't satisfied with the figures and by Hook or Crook change them. The Secretary calls certain directors and asks him to Up the figures.



    GDP growth in Musharaff Era did improve but what was being claimed wasn't actual figure.




    This Ishaq Dar is basically Jamaatiya in PML N and Member National Accounts is also a Jamaatiya who was previously DG FBS.
    It is a common practice in most developing countries. Except India and China do it at a much more technical level, switching between GDP deflator and CPI depending on which is more favorable.

    Ishaq Dar is not even an economist. He's trained as a Munshi.
    Last edited by HussainRx8; 16th December 2016 at 01:11.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"
    thanks. am waiting to hear about how they are going to blame it all on rising oil prices. when oil was falling, they claimed success of economic policy, now its rising, all the problems will be because of that.

    but of course, its far more important not to focus on rising energy and food prices for the 170mm poor people in the country, its far more important to focus on imran khan's marriage/dharnas - which apparently are as damaging to those 170mm poor people in the country.

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"


    NS's lawyer has clarified That this was only a political statement and not meant to be taken seriously.

  22. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    "Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics"

    "Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics"

    "Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif"
    I think there is a reasonable explaination for the above:

    Last year exports fell by 12.11% - Federal department of Statistics : FY2016 v/s FY2015

    Exports fell by 13.42% in April 2016 - Department of Statistics : April 2016 v/s April 2015

    Exports rose by 6.2% - Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif: April 2016 v/s March 2016

    " There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

  23. #263
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    Pakistan's debt rose about 35pc during the tenure of the ruling PPML-N

    Pakistan's net public debt crosses Rs18 trillion mark


    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s net public debt has crossed the Rs18.28 trillion mark, rising about 35pc during the tenure of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N).

    This was reported by the ministry of finance, in response to a question from Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) MNA Shahida Reh*mani in the National Assembly last week. “The volume of net public debt as on Sept 30, 2016 was Rs18,277.6 billion,” the ministry’s response said.

    Total public debt stood at Rs13.48tr at the end of fiscal year 2012-13 — almost three years ago. The major contribution to the increase in net public debt came from an almost 40pc rise in domestic debt, which rose from Rs8.686tr at the end of 2013 to Rs12.14tr at the end of the first quarter of the current fiscal year (FY 2016-17).

    In the same period, foreign debt posted an increase of 28pc and went from Rs4.796tr in 2013 to Rs6.14tr on Sept 30, 2016.



    Source: http://www.dawn.com/news/1313037/pak...-trillion-mark


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  24. #264
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    In a reply to Ahsan Iqbail tweet Asad Umar challenged him on Twitter for a live tv debate on economy but the program never happened so Asad today posted his views on social media.



    Economic Facts

    Last weekend in response to a tweet of mine about the need to fight corruption , ahsan iqbal made two very specific assertions and said these improvements don’t take place under the corrupt.. I replied that those assertions were not correct/misleading and offered to have a tv program to discuss the issues. Unfortunately waited all week but the program could not take place, I assume because ahsan iqbal had other important commitments. So now let me respond here.

    First assertion : FX reserves have tripled. Yes they have gone up from SBP reserves of 6 billion$ to 18 billion. In the same period foreign debt has increased from $61 billion to $74 billion. Or in other words the Foreign currency reserves have gone up by $12 billion but in the same period foreign currency debt has gone up by $13 billion. To put it simply , the increase in reserves is the result of increased foreign borrowing NOT improved economic performance. Infact the reserves would have FALLEN if we had not resorted to additional borrowing.

    Second assertion : Growth rate has doubled. While the first assertion, as we have seen above, is totally misleading , the second one was unfortunately simply false. The growth rate in the last 3 years of PPP rule averaged 3.7% and the average growth rate in the 3 completed years of this Govt’s rule is 4.26%. A mere half a percent point improvement , rather than the doubling of growth claimed. This is despite the fact that the independent economists have raised serious question marks about the growth rate being reported by the current govt as being exaggerated . Even the official reported growth is only slightly higher than the immediately preceding period.

    It should also be noted that Pakistan was hit by two major floods in the last 3 years of PPP rule and the international oil price was above a 100$. Despite no negative weather related shocks and the bonanza of the oil price collapse to less than half its peak , our growth is barely higher. If you look at agriculture which directly effects the lives of two thirds of Pakistani’s, the growth under the PML N govt has averaged 1.6% vs 2.7% in the last 3 years of the previous regime. So growth as it effects the lives of the majority of Pakistani’s has actually been much lower.

    Just as an additional point , while Ahsan Iqbal did not mention it, much is made of the strong performance of the stock market. Once again, the facts do not square up with the hoopla. KSE index growth in the first 3 years of this Govt was 80%, while the KSE index growth in the 3 years period immediately preceding this Govt. was actually a far stronger 116%.

    Again much is made of improved investor confidence. What do the facts say ? an average investment to GDP ratio of 15.1% vs an average of 14.7% in the preceding 3 years. The needle has barely moved. On the external front the news is grim. Exports continue to fall for the first time in the history of Pakistan and this year will end up almost 5 billion $ vs the last year of the previous regime. Both the absolute trade deficit and the current account deficits this year are expected to be the worst ever in this fiscal year. Economic indicator after economic indicator, we see the stark gap between reality and the claims of the PML N Govt. One thing however, that this Govt. is truly good at , is projection of non existing achievements and creating a hype in the presence of sustained poor performance.

    Written by: Asad Umar


    Source: https://web.facebook.com/notes/asad-...03351042/?_rdr
    Last edited by WebGuru; 18th March 2017 at 15:34.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  25. #265
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    Does the external borrowing include Chinese loans?

  26. #266
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    Pakistan's external debt will increase to $79 billion by June-end: Moody's



    Source: https://tribune.com.pk/story/1404569...lion-june-end/


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  27. #267
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    This thread deserve a bump in current economy situation...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  28. #268
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    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  29. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Please tell me this is a sarcastic post?


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  30. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Please tell me this is a sarcastic post?
    Noonie talf kiay ja skte hen inki islaah mumkin nae...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  31. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Noonie talf kiay ja skte hen inki islaah mumkin nae...
    hahahhahahah,,,,,,nooniesss......maza nahi arha yaha noonies na honay k barabar ha.

  32. #272
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    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1680209...ce-four-years/

    Pakistan’s external debt grows at fastest pace in four years

  33. #273
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    "undue amount of attention towards corruption".

  34. #274
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    Nothing to worry about.

    Pakistan has a debt to GDP ratio of 66.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/indicators

    India has a debt to GDP ratio of 69.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

    Who is drowning in debt is pretty obvious, let's hope they know how to swim.

    Of course, this puts Pakistan head and shoulders above Western economies, and Japan, when it comes to debt to GDP ratio.

    This is precisely why Pakistan stock market is the BEST performing in ASIA since 2000.

    Pakistan is the future of emerging market economies! And remember folks, CPEC has not even started!

    LOVE IT!

  35. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Nothing to worry about.

    Pakistan has a debt to GDP ratio of 66.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/indicators

    India has a debt to GDP ratio of 69.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

    Who is drowning in debt is pretty obvious, let's hope they know how to swim.

    Of course, this puts Pakistan head and shoulders above Western economies, and Japan, when it comes to debt to GDP ratio.

    This is precisely why Pakistan stock market is the BEST performing in ASIA since 2000.

    Pakistan is the future of emerging market economies! And remember folks, CPEC has not even started!

    LOVE IT!
    When you are borrowing billions it must be bring sustainable growth that then can be taxed to pay for the borrowed money. Most if our borrowed money disappears into the Dubai and London property market and Swiss bank accounts.

  36. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Nothing to worry about.

    Pakistan has a debt to GDP ratio of 66.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/indicators

    India has a debt to GDP ratio of 69.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

    Who is drowning in debt is pretty obvious, let's hope they know how to swim.

    Of course, this puts Pakistan head and shoulders above Western economies, and Japan, when it comes to debt to GDP ratio.

    This is precisely why Pakistan stock market is the BEST performing in ASIA since 2000.

    Pakistan is the future of emerging market economies! And remember folks, CPEC has not even started!

    LOVE IT!
    Having debt is not a problem. Japan has three times that but no one cares. What is important is whether the country can service that debt or not. India has 500+ billion debt and a forex reserves around 400+ billion making it quite quite comfortable to handle. India doesn't have to borrow to service it's debt. Pak on the other hand has debt which is six to seven times its forex reserves compare to 1.3 times in case of India. They need to borrow money to pay debts. When someone borrows to pay debt then you know where they are heading

  37. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gubol123 View Post
    Having debt is not a problem. Japan has three times that but no one cares. What is important is whether the country can service that debt or not. India has 500+ billion debt and a forex reserves around 400+ billion making it quite quite comfortable to handle. India doesn't have to borrow to service it's debt. Pak on the other hand has debt which is six to seven times its forex reserves compare to 1.3 times in case of India. They need to borrow money to pay debts. When someone borrows to pay debt then you know where they are heading
    Phir le liya bait.

  38. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Phir le liya bait.
    It's too easy

  39. #279
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    India has a larger deficit than Pakistan. For those of you who do not know, deficit is the shortfall between income and expenditure. India is borrowing more to service it's own debt. This is a fact. Hence India is more in debt. Yet, only a fool would claim debt is the same as wealth.

    Pakistan's external debt : USD 88891.00 MILLION - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/balance-of-trade

    India's external debt : USD 513438.00 MILLION - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/balance-of-trade


    India is drowning in debt, the Bond yields are a clue to, as are the rises in corporate and individual bankruptcies in India.

  40. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Nothing to worry about.

    Pakistan has a debt to GDP ratio of 66.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/indicators

    India has a debt to GDP ratio of 69.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

    Who is drowning in debt is pretty obvious, let's hope they know how to swim.

    Of course, this puts Pakistan head and shoulders above Western economies, and Japan, when it comes to debt to GDP ratio.

    This is precisely why Pakistan stock market is the BEST performing in ASIA since 2000.

    Pakistan is the future of emerging market economies! And remember folks, CPEC has not even started!

    LOVE IT!
    If you actually understand the data in the links you provided, you would realize that the most important information is:

    Pakistan per cap PPP GDP: $4,866
    India per cap PPP GDP: $6,093

    Actually even the above data is dated, it is from 2016. According to World CIA Fact book for 2017 the numbers are $5,400 and $7,200.

    As for the creditworthiness of a country, the important number is the "Government Credit Rating" (a larger number signifies more creditworthiness, again from the links you provided):

    Pakistan: 19.09
    India: 47.56

    Anyway, thanks for the links, lots of interesting information.

  41. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Nothing to worry about.

    Pakistan has a debt to GDP ratio of 66.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/pakistan/indicators

    India has a debt to GDP ratio of 69.5% - https://tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

    Who is drowning in debt is pretty obvious, let's hope they know how to swim.

    Of course, this puts Pakistan head and shoulders above Western economies, and Japan, when it comes to debt to GDP ratio.

    This is precisely why Pakistan stock market is the BEST performing in ASIA since 2000.

    Pakistan is the future of emerging market economies! And remember folks, CPEC has not even started!

    LOVE IT!
    Bhai all this is only possible if we have leaders who put their country's interest above their own. There is no such thing presently.

  42. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    If you actually understand the data in the links you provided, you would realize that the most important information is:

    Pakistan per cap PPP GDP: $4,866
    India per cap PPP GDP: $6,093


    Actually even the above data is dated, it is from 2016. According to World CIA Fact book for 2017 the numbers are $5,400 and $7,200.

    As for the creditworthiness of a country, the important number is the "Government Credit Rating" (a larger number signifies more creditworthiness, again from the links you provided):

    Pakistan: 19.09
    India: 47.56

    Anyway, thanks for the links, lots of interesting information.
    I wasn't talking about GDP per capita or credit rating anyway, I was referring to the external debt which is the topic of the thread, which you conveniently ignored. Don't try to shift the topic and con readers that GDP per capita is the most important given India is in more debt than Pakistan. Only someone like you would rely on CIA fact book, when the numbers I cited are used by Bloomberg etc.

    Also, even if we grant the numbers you have cited, India has a GDP 1000% the size of Pakistan's, but GDP/Capita is about 30% higher than Pakistan and seeing how cost of living in India is very expensive, the end result in reality sits within the margin of error.

  43. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Bhai all this is only possible if we have leaders who put their country's interest above their own. There is no such thing presently.
    Inshallah the time will come, 20 years ago, who would've though India would have a growing economy the size it is today? Even with our corrupt leaders Pakistan's ahead of India in certain aspects. ETFs in Pakistan have outperformed India. Stock market growth in Pakistan has out performed India. Pakistan has a lower deficit than India. Has a lower number in poverty. Lower number of uneducated. This is just the beginning.

  44. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I wasn't talking about GDP per capita or credit rating anyway, I was referring to the external debt which is the topic of the thread, which you conveniently ignored. Don't try to shift the topic and con readers that GDP per capita is the most important given India is in more debt than Pakistan.
    If you do not have even a basic understanding of economics, then you should not dabble in it.

    I am not changing the topic. The important issue about external debt is whether the borrower has the ability to repay the debt. The creditworthiness of a country's government is determined by its future ability to repay its external debt.

    Instead of the government's creditworthiness, you can instead look at the "Current Account to GDP" numbers in the links you provided. The Current Account current equals: Trade in goods + Trade in services (insurance and services, investment incomes e.g. dividends, interest and migrants remittances from abroad) + Net transfers (e.g. International aid).

    Pakistan: -4.1% (Jun 2017)
    India: -0.7% (Dec 2016)

    Basically Pakistan is producing $95.90 but consuming $100 by borrowing $4.10 from foreigners. This is not sustainable in the long run.

    Only someone like you would rely on CIA fact book, when the numbers I cited are used by Bloomberg etc.
    The numbers $4,866 and $6,093 are from the links you provided.

    Also, even if we grant the numbers you have cited, India has a GDP 1000% the size of Pakistan's, but GDP/Capita is about 30% higher than Pakistan
    What???

    and seeing how cost of living in India is very expensive, the end result in reality sits within the margin of error.
    Here is your economics lesson for today. PPP means "purchasing power parity", so "cost of living" has always been accounted for. India's PPP per cap GDP is 25.22% higher than Pakistan's. If you do not make the PPP correction, then the per cap GDP figures are $1,182 and $1,862, which puts India per cap GDP 57.53% higher. I am aware that "cost of living" is higher in India, therefore I used PPP figures rather than nominal figures.

    Not to say that a PPP per cap GDP of $7,200 is anything to be proud of, it needs to at least double.

    If you think 25.22% "sits within the margin of error" you should stop posting on anything that involves numbers.

  45. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Inshallah the time will come, 20 years ago, who would've though India would have a growing economy the size it is today? Even with our corrupt leaders Pakistan's ahead of India in certain aspects. ETFs in Pakistan have outperformed India. Stock market growth in Pakistan has out performed India. Pakistan has a lower deficit than India. Has a lower number in poverty. Lower number of uneducated. This is just the beginning.
    Not only are you clueless about economic indicators, but you are equally clueless about the "facts" you present. Isnt Pakistan by far the most illiterate nation in South Asia? Same goes for poverty percentage.

    Are you an Indian trying to make Pakistanis look bad?

  46. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    If you do not have even a basic understanding of economics, then you should not dabble in it.
    You are right, you have no basic understanding hence you are trying to change the topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    If you think 25.22% "sits within the margin of error" you should stop posting on anything that involves numbers
    You are weak with numbers, and English it seems too. I also mentioned factoring the cost of living.

    Have fun!

  47. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackShadow View Post
    Not only are you clueless about economic indicators, but you are equally clueless about the "facts" you present. Isnt Pakistan by far the most illiterate nation in South Asia? Same goes for poverty percentage.

    Are you an Indian trying to make Pakistanis look bad?
    Here we go folks.

    Someone is about to try convince us that more people in Pakistan are poor/uneducated compared to India.

  48. #288
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    To the rest of you what I have highlighted is that India is in more debt, (Indian do not like it hence changing the topic); India's GDP vs Pakistan is 1000% (10 Times larger), but the average person in India is 1/3 richer than a Pakistani. A THIRD. Their cost of living is also more expensive.

    Meaning if a Pakistani has $100 USD, Indian will have about $130. Seeing as India's inflation rate is also higher than Pakistan's, the cost of living and value are in greater decline in India.

    These are cold hard facts.

  49. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    To the rest of you what I have highlighted is that India is in more debt, (Indian do not like it hence changing the topic); India's GDP vs Pakistan is 1000% (10 Times larger), but the average person in India is 1/3 richer than a Pakistani. A THIRD. Their cost of living is also more expensive.

    Meaning if a Pakistani has $100 USD, Indian will have about $130. Seeing as India's inflation rate is also higher than Pakistan's, the cost of living and value are in greater decline in India.

    These are cold hard facts.
    I give up.

  50. #290
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    I am flabbergasted! They really do not get it? I thought they were bluffing?

    The ratio of GDP/Capita between India and Pakistan clearly demonstrates that Indians are about 30% richer despite having a 1000% bigger economy than Pakistan. ($250B vs $2.5T) - SIMPLE MATHS!

    So you see folks, perspective. Indians talk TRILLIONS, and BILLIONS, when all the while they are not that richer than the average Pakistani. Now you have Indians trying to convince the number of poor & uneducated people in India is less than Pakistan? They are trying to twist and warp the facts.

    Of course India's debt & deficit on the other hand dwarfs that of Pakistan.

    Now you know why India fears CPEC too, it will push Pakistan into surplus which India can NEVER achieve!

  51. #291
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    US deficit forecast to hit $1 trillion following tax cuts

    News just in.

    The US is heading for a budget deficit of more than $1 trillion (£707bn) by 2020 following tax cuts and higher public spending, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

    It said that while the measures will temporarily boost the US economy, they will exacerbate its long-term debt.

    The agency said US debt could rise to a level comparable to World War II and the financial crisis.

    It warned that it would have "serious negative consequences" for the US.

    The CBO's report has been revised to incorporate the effects of a new $1.3 trillion government spending bill and the $1.5 trillion in Republican-led tax cuts approved last year.

    It lifted its economic growth forecast for this year and next to 3.3% and 2.4% respectively.

    However, the non-partisan CBO said the deficit - the difference between what the government spends and what it receives through tax receipts - is expected to rise to $804bn in 2018 from $665bn in the previous year.

    The budget deficit is then expected to grow to $1 trillion by 2020.

    The agency said it now expects America's cumulative deficit over the next decade to grow to $11.7 trillion compared to a previous forecast of $10.1 trillion.

    It added that debt would hit $28 trillion, or about 96% of GDP, by 2028.

    The figure would be even larger if the tax cuts for individuals and families do not expire as scheduled.

    The CBO said that "such high and rising debt would have serious negative consequences for the budget and the nation," which would include limiting the government's flexibility to introduce new policies and making it vulnerable to fiscal shock.

    The report is expected to fuel concerns that China could use its position as America's largest foreign creditor to its advantage during the current trade dispute.

    Democrats seized on the report to criticise Republicans, who have previously championed fiscal responsibility.

    Senator Chuck Schumer of New York said the report "exposes the scam behind the rosy rhetoric from Republicans that their tax bill would pay for itself" and warned that Republicans will now use the rising debt to call for cuts to welfare programmes such as Social Security.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43706309

    World's professional are saying a large deficit and debt is bad for the #1 economy in the world, but no, we have chai wale trying to educate PP on why Credit Rating and the ability to pay off debt is more important.

    Oh well.

  52. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackShadow View Post
    Not only are you clueless about economic indicators, but you are equally clueless about the "facts" you present. Isnt Pakistan by far the most illiterate nation in South Asia? Same goes for poverty percentage.

    Are you an Indian trying to make Pakistanis look bad?
    India has lower poverty percentage? Did you use Modi as your source?

  53. #293
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    Indians are trying to pull WOOL over our eyes by claiming more debt isn't a bad thing but the ability to pay it off is more important. Trying to mask the truth as always. If Credit rating/Ability to pay back debt is important then how comes Pakistan's stock market has outperformed that of India's since 2000? Or ETFs have out performed India's? Think about it.

    Do NOT let the chai wale divert you from the facts. India is drowning in debt, inflation is high, interest rates are high, bankruptcies are high in India - India's economy is in actual fact a house of cards.

  54. #294
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    That much is obvious, when top 1% get 73% of the wealth. It explains why despite their GDP per capita being roughly 20% higher than Pakistan, their poverty levels are significantly higher than Pakistan. I guess they can be happy they have a crap ton of billionaires though.

  55. #295
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    He will say Inflation is high despite it being below 5%.

    He will say India's bond yields are higher, despite they being lower than Pakistan's.

    Interest rates in India are at all time low.

    KSE is a small Stock MArket which i dont know if even has a total market cap of 100bn.

    Credit ratings of India are improving and higher than Pakistan's.

    Dont fall for his trolls and lies. Have seen his antics since 2010 when i was lurker here. Poor guy doesnot know that lying on PP wont actually improve Pakistan's economy in real world or make the Indian economy go bust.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 10th April 2018 at 03:36.

  56. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    That much is obvious, when top 1% get 73% of the wealth. It explains why despite their GDP per capita being roughly 20% higher than Pakistan, their poverty levels are significantly higher than Pakistan. I guess they can be happy they have a crap ton of billionaires though.
    Can you tell me what is the total population of Pakistan?

  57. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Can you tell me what is the total population of Pakistan?
    I am not sure of the relevance of that question to my post.

  58. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    I am not sure of the relevance of that question to my post.
    You realise that population has an effect on these poverty rates etc.

  59. #299
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    Numbers do not lie.

    Indians are hurting in this thread, because they have met their match - someone who will pull them up on their outright WHITE lies.

    Notice how there is no denial, but mere character assassination attempts.

    Coming from Crickejoshilla who always cries NEVER TO TAKE THE BAIT - he's a kipper in this thread.

  60. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    You realise that population has an effect on these poverty rates etc.
    Yes I do. I am basically asking if you are trying to invalidate those numbers, given they were provided by world bank years ago.

  61. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    You realise that population has an effect on these poverty rates etc.

    There it is!

    The population has an effect on poverty, but when it comes to GDP etc, population does not have an effect according to Indians.

    You see folks, India is NOT special my any means. You could sell half a biscuit in a corroded tin and become a millionaire because of the population. There is no quality economics in India. Higher debt. Higher deficit. Higher inflation. Higher interest rate. Higher unemployment. Higher poverty. Higher uneducated.

    Higher everything. Expect Indians will NEVER talk about the negatives (which are higher in number too), because they are stuck up on a $2.5T GDP which results in an embarrassing 20 to 30% greater wealth compared to Pakistanis.

    All you have to do is ask yourself why is the Pakistani Stockmarket/ETF out performing Indian stock market/ETFs since 2000? 17 years and counting!

  62. #302
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    Do not let the Indians economists fool you. Market cap has NOTHING to do with market returns. It is their way of consolidating themselves to sleep at night.

    Investors look for percentage returns, and from 2000, investors made more money from Pakistan Stock markets and ETFS compared to India. This is a fact.

    What's Next For Asia's Best-Performing Stock Market?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...g-stock-market


  63. #303
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    Move over, India. Pakistan is the hottest equity market in South Asia

    The BRICS grouping is passe and the top emerging markets are losing sheen. Brexit has battered stocks world over and currencies across economies are weakening.

    In times like these, guess what’s working for the global equity markets? Pakistan.

    The south Asian nation, mostly in the news for terrorism and political violence, has beaten major Asian economies this year in stock market performance. In 2016, Pakistan’s benchmark equity index, the KSE 100, has been one of Asia’s best performing. In fact, it is the fifth-best performing stock index globally. Bloomberg even referred to Pakistan as an Asian “tiger,” in a report.

    From an INDIAN website

    https://qz.com/728382/move-over-indi...in-south-asia/

  64. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    Yes I do. I am basically asking if you are trying to invalidate those numbers, given they were provided by world bank years ago.
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2046.html

    Poverty figures.

    When you have time Go through the below thread. More to now about Indian economy.

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...t=namak_halaal
    Last edited by cricketjoshila; 9th April 2018 at 23:33.

  65. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    From 2011?

    India poverty at 21%, and Pakistan at 29%?

    So about 260 MILLION are poor in India compared to about 66 Million?

    Give this guy a medal.

    That's about 4 TIMES poverty in India compared to Pakistan.

    Ouch!

    World bank figures are from 2017 in case you are wondering.

  66. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...elds/2046.html

    Poverty figures.

    When you have time Go through the below thread. More to now about Indian economy.

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...t=namak_halaal
    And world bank has completely different numbers.

    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

    Now, which is more reputable when it comes to figures like poverty?

  67. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    And world bank has completely different numbers.

    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

    Now, which is more reputable when it comes to figures like poverty?
    The CIA handbook is a very reputed source as well.

    If you see both give almost similar figures for India with 2011 as the estimated year.

    Pakistan's estimated figure for CIA is 2013 and WB is 2011. So different estimates.

    DId you read that threaD?

  68. #308
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    CIA figures even reveal India has 4 times more people living in poverty than Pakistan.

    You can run, but cannot hide.

  69. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post

    Also, even if we grant the numbers you have cited, India has a GDP 1000% the size of Pakistan's, but GDP/Capita is about 30% higher than Pakistan and seeing how cost of living in India is very expensive, the end result in reality sits within the margin of error.
    This statement should be framed and handed over to every student of Economics. Pure genius!

  70. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    India has lower poverty percentage? Did you use Modi as your source?
    Be sure of your facts before you embarrass yourself again.

  71. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The CIA handbook is a very reputed source as well.

    If you see both give almost similar figures for India with 2011 as the estimated year.

    Pakistan's estimated figure for CIA is 2013 and WB is 2011. So different estimates.

    DId you read that threaD?
    WB has Pakistan's figures for both 2011 and 2013.

  72. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    And world bank has completely different numbers.

    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

    Now, which is more reputable when it comes to figures like poverty?
    Because this happened?

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1250694

  73. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackShadow View Post
    Because this happened?

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1250694
    Did you put much thought into posting that, or the headline sounded good and you posted it?

    The WB numbers posted from 2011 and 2013 are using the same poverty line for Pakistan and India. The article you posted does not use a standardized poverty line like the world bank statistics do.

  74. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    CIA figures even reveal India has 4 times more people living in poverty than Pakistan.

    You can run, but cannot hide.
    India's population is also 5-6 times of Pakistan's.

  75. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    Did you put much thought into posting that, or the headline sounded good and you posted it?

    The WB numbers posted from 2011 and 2013 are using the same poverty line for Pakistan and India. The article you posted does not use a standardized poverty line like the world bank statistics do.
    Whats the poverty line in that article? How many pkr?

  76. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I
    Also, even if we grant the numbers you have cited, India has a GDP 1000% the size of Pakistan's, but GDP/Capita is about 30% higher than Pakistan and seeing how cost of living in India is very expensive, the end result in reality sits within the margin of error.
    Did you know when they talk about PPP numbers it takes into living expenses in that particular country.

  77. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Move over, India. Pakistan is the hottest equity market in South Asia

    The BRICS grouping is passe and the top emerging markets are losing sheen. Brexit has battered stocks world over and currencies across economies are weakening.

    In times like these, guess what’s working for the global equity markets? Pakistan.

    The south Asian nation, mostly in the news for terrorism and political violence, has beaten major Asian economies this year in stock market performance. In 2016, Pakistan’s benchmark equity index, the KSE 100, has been one of Asia’s best performing. In fact, it is the fifth-best performing stock index globally. Bloomberg even referred to Pakistan as an Asian “tiger,” in a report.

    From an INDIAN website

    https://qz.com/728382/move-over-indi...in-south-asia/
    I really feel sorry for you .

    To give you a little perspective , KSE has a Mcap of ~90 billion dollars , which is less than Reliance industries Market Capitalisation . Two of our stock exchanges are among the Top 12 in the world both nearly 30 times bigger than KSE . its like comparing a Large cap with a small cap , off course when I invest money in a small cap its expected to return higher knowing the risks associated .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  78. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    I really feel sorry for you .

    To give you a little perspective , KSE has a Mcap of ~90 billion dollars , which is less than Reliance industries Market Capitalisation . Two of our stock exchanges are among the Top 12 in the world both nearly 30 times bigger than KSE . its like comparing a Large cap with a small cap , off course when I invest money in a small cap its expected to return higher knowing the risks associated .
    I feel pity for you.

    Market cap has SOD ALL to do with market returns.

    Accept the reality and move on and stop trying to change the subject by changing the dynamics.

    You can brag all you want, but KSE has out performed Nifty/Sensex since 2000! Among other index in Asia. The facts are there. Check the Bloomberg link out, check any website you want. So save your Top 12 ranking - it means nothing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    I really feel sorry for you .

    To give you a little perspective , KSE has a Mcap of ~90 billion dollars , which is less than Reliance industries Market Capitalisation . Two of our stock exchanges are among the Top 12 in the world both nearly 30 times bigger than KSE . its like comparing a Large cap with a small cap , off course when I invest money in a small cap its expected to return higher knowing the risks associated .
    He actually has a point there. Comparing an entire stock exchange to small cap or large cap stocks is not appropriate. Here we are comparing the stock exchange for a smaller economy to a larger economy, not the stock of a smaller company to a larger company. You can see parallels to TSX v/s S&P 500. Why would you expect TSX to grow faster than S&P 500 despite it being significantly smaller than S&P 500?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Whats the poverty line in that article? How many pkr?
    I am going to say it again. You need to use a standardized poverty line similar to what world bank is doing. The article posted does not standardize on a poverty line based on USD PPP.

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