Instagram



Sohail Speaks Yasir's Blog Fazeer's Focus

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 80 of 107
  1. #1
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Venue
    Peshawar
    Runs
    32,691
    Mentioned
    2029 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)

    Javed Miandad's strange overseas LBW record

    A leg-before decision depends inescapably on the umpire making a judgement about something that does not take place. To answer an lbw appeal, apart from a few other things, the umpire has to answer the question: "Would the ball have hit the stumps if the batsman's body was not in the way?" Under the DRS, lbws are the most commonly disputed mode of dismissal.

    In the 1980s, on the eve of the advent of the neutral, ICC-appointed Test umpire, cricket faced similar controversies. Visiting teams invariably complained that the home umpires tended to rule disproportionately against them. In both India and Pakistan, these complaints were loud and persistent. It was said that it was nearly impossible to get Pakistani batsmen (especially Javed Miandad) out lbw in Pakistan. The same went for Sunil Gavaskar and other Indian batsmen in India. As it turns out, the reality, as suggested by match records, is stranger than one might suspect.

    Gavaskar and Miandad were both great players who built fantastic home and away records. Each played over 100 Tests and scored more than 8500 Test runs.

    Player Innings Runs Home innings Home runs Away innings Away runs
    Miandad 189 8832 86 4481 103 4351
    Gavaskar 214 10122 108 5067 106 5055

    First, let's look at their propensity to be dismissed leg-before.

    Gavaskar was a technical master and was rarely out lbw. In fact, he was dismissed lbw less frequently outside India than he was in India. In 80 dismissals outside India and Pakistan, Gavaskar was lbw only five times. In Pakistan, two of Gavaskar's 17 dismissals were lbw.



    Miandad's record tells a different story. In Pakistan, Miandad was lbw eight times in 73 dismissals. Outside Pakistan, 25 times in 95. Outside India and Pakistan, 17 times in 76. Miandad seems to have fallen lbw very often in India - eight out of 19 dismissals. The difference between Miandad's tendency to be lbw in Pakistan and his tendency to be lbw outside India or Pakistan is striking.

    A comparison of Gavaskar's and Miandad's tendency to be lbw shows that overall 19.6% of Miandad's dismissals were lbw, as against 8.6% of Gavaskar's dismissals. Alastair Cook has been lbw in 44 of his 206 (20%) dismissals so far. Matthew Hayden was lbw in 26 out of 170 (15%), and Graeme Smith in 44 out of 192 (23%). Among Gavaskar's contemporaries, Gordon Greenidge was lbw 35 times in 169 dismissals (21%), while Geoffrey Boycott was lbw 27 times in 170 dismissals. Gavaskar's technique meant that he was inherently less likely to be lbw than other batsmen.

    Is the difference between Miandad's lbw rates home and away similar to those of other Pakistani batsmen who played in the same Test matches? The record suggests that this is not so. Miandad's colleagues in the Pakistan top order were lbw somewhere between 14.8% and 15.9% of the time overall (at home, away from home, and outside India and Pakistan). In India, Pakistani top-order batsmen other than Miandad were lbw 19 times in 160 dismissals, or just under 12%.

    These percentages are not as weird as they look, but they do suggest that Miandad was unusually prone to being lbw outside Pakistan, and especially in India, in a way that other Pakistani batsmen who played in the same Test matches were not. So if umpires were indeed biased, they were biased especially in favour of Miandad in Pakistan.

    The story becomes even stranger. Let's consider Imran Khan and Kapil Dev in the same way. In their case, regard their propensity for getting lbw and bowled dismissals. Each follows a familiar trend. Kapil was not express pace like Imran was for much of his career, but he had a natural outswinger and a superb inswinger as variation. As a result, at all types of venues - overall, home and away, Kapil got more lbws than Imran. Outside India, Kapil tended to get lbws and bowled dismissals at about the same rate; in India he got lbws significantly more frequently. The same was true for Imran in home and away Tests; the slower wickets at home produced far more lbws than the quicker wickets overseas did.

    It has been suggested that home umpires had something to do with the unusually high percentage of lbws for both Kapil and Imran in home Tests. There is some minor evidence to suggest this.

    Zaheer Khan took 311 Test wickets for India in the age of the neutral umpire. He got 39 lbws and 32 batsmen bowled out of his 207 wickets outside India. In India, he got 24 lbws and 24 bowleds out of 107 wickets. While the total share of bowleds and lbws improved for Zaheer at home, the share of lbws also increased, but not as dramatically as it did for Kapil (who went from one lbw per bowled abroad to 1.47 lbws per bowled in India).

    Similarly, Waqar Younis, who bowled in the era of the neutral umpire, got lbws and bowleds at about the same rate (49 lbws and 44 bowleds in Pakistan; 61 lbws, 58 bowleds outside).


    © Kartikeya Date

    The records of Kapil and Imran tell us that that both tended to get more lbws at home than they did abroad. But there is little to suggest that this was disproportionately so. All this suggests that Miandad's tendency to get out lbw in Pakistan much less than he did elsewhere could well be considered anomalous. In his favour, we have the fact that he was bowled 11 times in Pakistan but only ten times overseas.

    So either Miandad was harshly treated by foreign umpires, or he was especially leniently treated by Pakistani umpires.

    My view is that all the conspiracy theories about umpiring in India and Pakistan are part of a more general tendency to overestimate the effect of umpiring decisions on matches. Rare mistakes are remembered forever. When it comes to players, nostalgia provides a rose-tinted filter. Consider the comments about the great fast bowling of the '70s and '80s, which produced less impressive results than today's bowlers do, or the comments about the great batsmen of yesteryear, who produced runs at a more modest rate than today's batsmen do.

    When it comes to umpires, it tends to be an excessively harsh filter. Yes, umpires probably make mistakes, but it is unclear that they are biased. I'm sure there are rare exceptions to this, but those are just that - rare exceptions. The way we treat umpires is perhaps best encapsulated in a comment Simon Taufel once made. He said that umpires didn't just have to be neutral, they had to be seen to be neutral.

    But tell me, if you are an India fan, would you not prefer Aleem Dar to stand in an India v Pakistan game, rather than some lesser third-party umpire? And if you are an Ashes fan, would you not have Taufel or Ian Gould stand? Have our fears as cricket fans not caused serious damage to professional umpires? So what if old Javed got away with a couple of close ones in his day? He was a magnificent player. Our capacity to doubt the judgement of umpires has always far exceeded their tendency to make mistakes.
    Last edited by #GreenRoars; 23rd December 2015 at 14:08.


    Eat, Sleep, Back The Team....Repeat!

  2. #2
    Debut
    Feb 2013
    Venue
    Guwahati, Assam
    Runs
    4,151
    Mentioned
    143 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by #GreenRoars View Post
    So either Miandad was harshly treated by foreign umpires, or he was especially leniently treated by Pakistani umpires.
    Therein lies the answer. Steve Waugh wrote in his autobiography how Pakistani umpires forgot the LBW rule when Miandad was batting, and Miandad used to openly egg Australian players while he was batting saying something like, "Don't bother appealing. This is my land".


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  3. #3
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    19,576
    Mentioned
    123 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    This is why Imran Khan led the fight for neutral umpires when the leading lights in the ICC were set against it. To dispel all suspicions about home umpires. What a legend the great Khan was!

  4. #4
    Debut
    Aug 2013
    Venue
    Chennai
    Runs
    29,670
    Mentioned
    807 Post(s)
    Tagged
    11 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Therein lies the answer. Steve Waugh wrote in his autobiography how Pakistani umpires forgot the LBW rule when Miandad was batting, and Miandad used to openly egg Australian players while he was batting saying something like, "Don't bother appealing. This is my land".
    What really?

    He used to say this?


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  5. #5
    Debut
    Sep 2010
    Venue
    uk
    Runs
    3,598
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Gotta love Miandad for this


    The boyes play well the boyes do as i tell

  6. #6
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    10,692
    Mentioned
    1334 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)
    I saw most of Javed Miandad's career.

    He was a technically limited but very tough batsman.

    He scored most of his runs in favourable conditions, and with home umpires until 1988 after which his output plummeted.

    Even his greatest achievements, the centuries in consecutive Tests in the West Indies in 1988, don't stand up to scrutiny. Curtly Ambrose was a rookie and Malcolm Marshall missed the First Test.

    Miandad was like a fiercely committed version of Ijaz Ahmed.

  7. #7
    Debut
    Feb 2013
    Venue
    Guwahati, Assam
    Runs
    4,151
    Mentioned
    143 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    What really?

    He used to say this?
    I've read Steve Waugh's book. Miandad used to openly egg on the Australian bowlers and fielders after every single one of the LBW appeals were routinely turned down by his home umpires.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  8. #8
    Debut
    Jul 2013
    Venue
    Canada
    Runs
    1,727
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    This is why Imran Khan led the fight for neutral umpires when the leading lights in the ICC were set against it. To dispel all suspicions about home umpires. What a legend the great Khan was!
    Gotta Love Imran Khan for that.

  9. #9
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Bhopal
    Runs
    2,139
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

  10. #10
    Debut
    Apr 2011
    Venue
    Toronto (Dhaka)
    Runs
    15,631
    Mentioned
    988 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)
    Not much to be said in this regard to be honest. Apart for English Umpiring (which MUST be appreciated), my memory of early days cricket from early 70s (either live of archives) tells, every host Umpiring had been pathetic. PAK umpires get bashed more because, they have been "raw level" stupid to be honest - made howlers or apparently "non productive" bias (if you are cunning, you can change the course of a match by just couple of deliberate wrong decision) & they didn't have the media back up. Once Gavasker said - "You need to know when to do the tricks, they (Aussies) know that", & as expected, PAK umpires matched their board perfectly. Shakoor Rana gets lots of bashing & rightly so, but I still have some memory of Pilu Reporter & Suresh Taraya (?) from Bangalore '87. One advantage that I have is I don't have country bias - in that regard, I probably write things that I can back. Based on that, I can safely say that most biased & cunning umpiring I have seen is from Aussie umpires, followed by more or less every one. For AUS's credit, I must say that they had the team to back that "Favor", which most others didn't have.

    West Indies had a tremendous team, but their umpires were even more notorious - once Viv ran to threat the umpire & he gave Jones LBW (later revised), but WI initially appealed for Caught Behind. Mr. Hue Shung (?), once told someone (Imran ?) on why, not given Grineedge LBW - "Mr. *****, you 'll play the game & leave this island in few days time, I'll have to live here & I have kids.......". WI remained unbeaten for 18 years at home, mostly thanks to the Umpires at Barbados Test, 1988. Kiwi umpires were the main force for them to be unbeaten in home for almost 1 decade. Gavasker & Vengsarker were the biggest beneficiary at home, but it was more with the close catching by Indian fielders that got "extra" support from their umpires. I mentioned Bangalore Test, but, there are few more - highest I saw, umpire Choudhury (?) - Jadeda knicked & started walking, umpire started raising finger & then suddenly felt something in his hair, so he used his index finger to scratch the head, Jadeja made a gesture that he was taking a walk for focusing more & the bowler told his mustache, on his real feeling of the father & mother of the umpire........

    Finally, coming back to AUS - it was a strategic & very thoughtful "work out" - I suggest anyone to figure-out some in-depth analysis on this. % LBW doesn't tell anything because matches in AUS are played 20-30% more bouncier wickets. One can check how many times AUS got a break-through just before a break (Tea or lunch) with a dubious call; or how many times they had a match changing partnership after surviving one "obvious" call - that Hobert Test I'll never forget.

    I can give a statistical analysis - few figures might have lost in 23 years but, still most are accurate.

    IND went to AUS in 1991-92 Summer for 5 Test & I was free that couple of months (in AUS) - so watched every Test, by ball. IND lost that series 4-0 & at the end of the Series, No. of LBW given in favor of both sides were almost same. Now,

    1. IND had about 10 or 11 LBWs for Aussies from No. 7 to 11 - only Aussie in top 6, ONCE out was Jones. Aussies had Azhar 2 times, ST 1 or 2 times, Vengsarker 2 times, Shastri 1 or 2 times, Mangrekar 1 & Kapil 1
    2. Boon & Taylor were man in form that time for AUS - made 4 or 5 hundreds together - at least 3 of those 100s were match winning & twice they were out any where out side AUS. You don't need to "serve" batsmen with names - it's about the batsmen in form. A 35 years old Javed or ST 'll not do much damage for a 2nd life, what a 25 years young batsmen in form can do.
    3. Here comes the technical aspect - IND had bowlers in Kapil, Manoj & Srinath - bowlers mostly bringing their stock deliver in-wards; AUS had Reid, Hughes, Whitney & probably McDermott - those who understands cricket should some-up what should be the % LBW for these 2 sets of bowlers on a particular series
    4. IND got only Test at SCG, where they had the attack to hit back Aussies (Though a 1st class gobbet picked 4 seemers & Shastri as only spinner), still, IND got AUS on the mat on Day 5 & then Border saved the match with Whitney (one can see the 5th Day of SCG New Years' Test, 1992)
    5. Adelaide is the best batting wicket in AUS - somehow IND got AUS all-out for 120 or so (A small total, can't recall what) - then the game started for umpires. 8 Indian batsmen were out LBW on that Adelaide track - ST, Azhar, Kapil (twice ?), Manoj, Manjrekar & couple I can't recall - Indians did get Geof Marsh though.

    An year back, I watched the MCG Test between PAK & AUS & then Adelaide Test .........................

    All I can say is that, it's a debatable issue & ICC did great to introduce 3rd country umpires (Umpires should be neutral, therefore no point saying Neutral umpires), for which KHAN should get lots of praise. The stories I put here are apparently targeting Aussies, because of Mr. big mouth Steve Waugh, who should keep his dirty mouth in check - just like when Ganguly applied "mental disintegration" therapy. Probably, I can tell same story for most teams (apart from the Poms, really respected umpires), but apart from Aussies, I don't think any other country (their commentators, former players) such shamelessly point fingers to others. Can anyone ask Steve Waugh, how they got ST "Chest Before Wicket" at Adelaide or Izaj at Hobert '96?

  11. #11
    Debut
    Apr 2011
    Venue
    Toronto (Dhaka)
    Runs
    15,631
    Mentioned
    988 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    It actually balances out - can you put the 2 LBWs Mac (or Aussies) got in WSC Final 1996, against Kalu - he was the Man of the Tournament of that series.

  12. #12
    Debut
    Nov 2015
    Venue
    Delhi, India
    Runs
    3,515
    Mentioned
    345 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    So with proof now, gavaskar was a much much better than miandad?

  13. #13
    Debut
    Jun 2013
    Venue
    Chicago
    Runs
    3,799
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    LOL! Even Inzi chuckled on the 2nd one.

  14. #14
    Debut
    Jun 2013
    Venue
    Chicago
    Runs
    3,799
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    So with proof now, gavaskar was a much much better than miandad?
    Can't compare. My dad always said- if you want to enjoy a masterclass, Gavaskar's the man. If you want to bet your life on the result, Miandad's the man.

  15. #15
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Mississauga, Canada
    Runs
    26,327
    Mentioned
    781 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    So with proof now, gavaskar was a much much better than miandad?
    Why? Miandad was an ATG, just like Gavasker and it wasn't just Miandad who was benefiting from home umpires.

    We should also keep in mind that when Miandad travelled overseas, he was routinely given out, wrongly. His away average is ~45 and his home average is ~60; Had he been playing in the era of neutral umpires, those averages would have been higher and lower, respectively.

  16. #16
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Mississauga, Canada
    Runs
    26,327
    Mentioned
    781 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Pakistan were routinely screwed over because of foreign umpires. We should have beaten the West Indies at their peak if the West Indian umpires had the guts to give Richards LBW.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 18th April 2017 at 20:00.

  17. #17
    Debut
    Jan 2005
    Venue
    Orlando, FL
    Runs
    25,695
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Not much to be said in this regard to be honest. Apart for English Umpiring (which MUST be appreciated), my memory of early days cricket from early 70s (either live of archives) tells, every host Umpiring had been pathetic. PAK umpires get bashed more because, they have been "raw level" stupid to be honest - made howlers or apparently "non productive" bias (if you are cunning, you can change the course of a match by just couple of deliberate wrong decision) & they didn't have the media back up. Once Gavasker said - "You need to know when to do the tricks, they (Aussies) know that", & as expected, PAK umpires matched their board perfectly. Shakoor Rana gets lots of bashing & rightly so, but I still have some memory of Pilu Reporter & Suresh Taraya (?) from Bangalore '87. One advantage that I have is I don't have country bias - in that regard, I probably write things that I can back. Based on that, I can safely say that most biased & cunning umpiring I have seen is from Aussie umpires, followed by more or less every one. For AUS's credit, I must say that they had the team to back that "Favor", which most others didn't have.

    West Indies had a tremendous team, but their umpires were even more notorious - once Viv ran to threat the umpire & he gave Jones LBW (later revised), but WI initially appealed for Caught Behind. Mr. Hue Shung (?), once told someone (Imran ?) on why, not given Grineedge LBW - "Mr. *****, you 'll play the game & leave this island in few days time, I'll have to live here & I have kids.......". WI remained unbeaten for 18 years at home, mostly thanks to the Umpires at Barbados Test, 1988. Kiwi umpires were the main force for them to be unbeaten in home for almost 1 decade. Gavasker & Vengsarker were the biggest beneficiary at home, but it was more with the close catching by Indian fielders that got "extra" support from their umpires. I mentioned Bangalore Test, but, there are few more - highest I saw, umpire Choudhury (?) - Jadeda knicked & started walking, umpire started raising finger & then suddenly felt something in his hair, so he used his index finger to scratch the head, Jadeja made a gesture that he was taking a walk for focusing more & the bowler told his mustache, on his real feeling of the father & mother of the umpire........

    Finally, coming back to AUS - it was a strategic & very thoughtful "work out" - I suggest anyone to figure-out some in-depth analysis on this. % LBW doesn't tell anything because matches in AUS are played 20-30% more bouncier wickets. One can check how many times AUS got a break-through just before a break (Tea or lunch) with a dubious call; or how many times they had a match changing partnership after surviving one "obvious" call - that Hobert Test I'll never forget.

    I can give a statistical analysis - few figures might have lost in 23 years but, still most are accurate.

    IND went to AUS in 1991-92 Summer for 5 Test & I was free that couple of months (in AUS) - so watched every Test, by ball. IND lost that series 4-0 & at the end of the Series, No. of LBW given in favor of both sides were almost same. Now,

    1. IND had about 10 or 11 LBWs for Aussies from No. 7 to 11 - only Aussie in top 6, ONCE out was Jones. Aussies had Azhar 2 times, ST 1 or 2 times, Vengsarker 2 times, Shastri 1 or 2 times, Mangrekar 1 & Kapil 1
    2. Boon & Taylor were man in form that time for AUS - made 4 or 5 hundreds together - at least 3 of those 100s were match winning & twice they were out any where out side AUS. You don't need to "serve" batsmen with names - it's about the batsmen in form. A 35 years old Javed or ST 'll not do much damage for a 2nd life, what a 25 years young batsmen in form can do.
    3. Here comes the technical aspect - IND had bowlers in Kapil, Manoj & Srinath - bowlers mostly bringing their stock deliver in-wards; AUS had Reid, Hughes, Whitney & probably McDermott - those who understands cricket should some-up what should be the % LBW for these 2 sets of bowlers on a particular series
    4. IND got only Test at SCG, where they had the attack to hit back Aussies (Though a 1st class gobbet picked 4 seemers & Shastri as only spinner), still, IND got AUS on the mat on Day 5 & then Border saved the match with Whitney (one can see the 5th Day of SCG New Years' Test, 1992)
    5. Adelaide is the best batting wicket in AUS - somehow IND got AUS all-out for 120 or so (A small total, can't recall what) - then the game started for umpires. 8 Indian batsmen were out LBW on that Adelaide track - ST, Azhar, Kapil (twice ?), Manoj, Manjrekar & couple I can't recall - Indians did get Geof Marsh though.

    An year back, I watched the MCG Test between PAK & AUS & then Adelaide Test .........................

    All I can say is that, it's a debatable issue & ICC did great to introduce 3rd country umpires (Umpires should be neutral, therefore no point saying Neutral umpires), for which KHAN should get lots of praise. The stories I put here are apparently targeting Aussies, because of Mr. big mouth Steve Waugh, who should keep his dirty mouth in check - just like when Ganguly applied "mental disintegration" therapy. Probably, I can tell same story for most teams (apart from the Poms, really respected umpires), but apart from Aussies, I don't think any other country (their commentators, former players) such shamelessly point fingers to others. Can anyone ask Steve Waugh, how they got ST "Chest Before Wicket" at Adelaide or Izaj at Hobert '96?


    Very good analysis, spot on especially the bit about Aussie umpires...I swear all my life I have seen how they used to strategically work the opposition out and then umpires, bowlers, fielders, and commentators all in tandem would execute their scripts so they win the key battles just at the right times, and no one got to blame them since none of the numbers stood out too much!

    I read a comment in that article OP quoted, Bill Lawry who played 67 tests and 30 of them at home...was never given LBW, not even once!

    And yet you will hear about Miandad at every instance someone talks of Umpiring biases, BS!


    Sir Mamoon:
    Is Yasir a very good spinner? No - Is Yasir good enough for overseas Tests? No

  18. #18
    Debut
    Jul 2015
    Runs
    6,132
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Not much to be said in this regard to be honest. Apart for English Umpiring (which MUST be appreciated), my memory of early days cricket from early 70s (either live of archives) tells, every host Umpiring had been pathetic. PAK umpires get bashed more because, they have been "raw level" stupid to be honest - made howlers or apparently "non productive" bias (if you are cunning, you can change the course of a match by just couple of deliberate wrong decision) & they didn't have the media back up. Once Gavasker said - "You need to know when to do the tricks, they (Aussies) know that", & as expected, PAK umpires matched their board perfectly. Shakoor Rana gets lots of bashing & rightly so, but I still have some memory of Pilu Reporter & Suresh Taraya (?) from Bangalore '87. One advantage that I have is I don't have country bias - in that regard, I probably write things that I can back. Based on that, I can safely say that most biased & cunning umpiring I have seen is from Aussie umpires, followed by more or less every one. For AUS's credit, I must say that they had the team to back that "Favor", which most others didn't have.

    West Indies had a tremendous team, but their umpires were even more notorious - once Viv ran to threat the umpire & he gave Jones LBW (later revised), but WI initially appealed for Caught Behind. Mr. Hue Shung (?), once told someone (Imran ?) on why, not given Grineedge LBW - "Mr. *****, you 'll play the game & leave this island in few days time, I'll have to live here & I have kids.......". WI remained unbeaten for 18 years at home, mostly thanks to the Umpires at Barbados Test, 1988. Kiwi umpires were the main force for them to be unbeaten in home for almost 1 decade. Gavasker & Vengsarker were the biggest beneficiary at home, but it was more with the close catching by Indian fielders that got "extra" support from their umpires. I mentioned Bangalore Test, but, there are few more - highest I saw, umpire Choudhury (?) - Jadeda knicked & started walking, umpire started raising finger & then suddenly felt something in his hair, so he used his index finger to scratch the head, Jadeja made a gesture that he was taking a walk for focusing more & the bowler told his mustache, on his real feeling of the father & mother of the umpire........

    Finally, coming back to AUS - it was a strategic & very thoughtful "work out" - I suggest anyone to figure-out some in-depth analysis on this. % LBW doesn't tell anything because matches in AUS are played 20-30% more bouncier wickets. One can check how many times AUS got a break-through just before a break (Tea or lunch) with a dubious call; or how many times they had a match changing partnership after surviving one "obvious" call - that Hobert Test I'll never forget.

    I can give a statistical analysis - few figures might have lost in 23 years but, still most are accurate.

    IND went to AUS in 1991-92 Summer for 5 Test & I was free that couple of months (in AUS) - so watched every Test, by ball. IND lost that series 4-0 & at the end of the Series, No. of LBW given in favor of both sides were almost same. Now,

    1. IND had about 10 or 11 LBWs for Aussies from No. 7 to 11 - only Aussie in top 6, ONCE out was Jones. Aussies had Azhar 2 times, ST 1 or 2 times, Vengsarker 2 times, Shastri 1 or 2 times, Mangrekar 1 & Kapil 1
    2. Boon & Taylor were man in form that time for AUS - made 4 or 5 hundreds together - at least 3 of those 100s were match winning & twice they were out any where out side AUS. You don't need to "serve" batsmen with names - it's about the batsmen in form. A 35 years old Javed or ST 'll not do much damage for a 2nd life, what a 25 years young batsmen in form can do.
    3. Here comes the technical aspect - IND had bowlers in Kapil, Manoj & Srinath - bowlers mostly bringing their stock deliver in-wards; AUS had Reid, Hughes, Whitney & probably McDermott - those who understands cricket should some-up what should be the % LBW for these 2 sets of bowlers on a particular series
    4. IND got only Test at SCG, where they had the attack to hit back Aussies (Though a 1st class gobbet picked 4 seemers & Shastri as only spinner), still, IND got AUS on the mat on Day 5 & then Border saved the match with Whitney (one can see the 5th Day of SCG New Years' Test, 1992)
    5. Adelaide is the best batting wicket in AUS - somehow IND got AUS all-out for 120 or so (A small total, can't recall what) - then the game started for umpires. 8 Indian batsmen were out LBW on that Adelaide track - ST, Azhar, Kapil (twice ?), Manoj, Manjrekar & couple I can't recall - Indians did get Geof Marsh though.

    An year back, I watched the MCG Test between PAK & AUS & then Adelaide Test .........................

    All I can say is that, it's a debatable issue & ICC did great to introduce 3rd country umpires (Umpires should be neutral, therefore no point saying Neutral umpires), for which KHAN should get lots of praise. The stories I put here are apparently targeting Aussies, because of Mr. big mouth Steve Waugh, who should keep his dirty mouth in check - just like when Ganguly applied "mental disintegration" therapy. Probably, I can tell same story for most teams (apart from the Poms, really respected umpires), but apart from Aussies, I don't think any other country (their commentators, former players) such shamelessly point fingers to others. Can anyone ask Steve Waugh, how they got ST "Chest Before Wicket" at Adelaide or Izaj at Hobert '96?
    Interesting post.

  19. #19
    Debut
    Jan 2011
    Runs
    4,353
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Miandad's wristy stance made him a bit more prone to LBWs - and Gavaskar's to caught behind/in the slips. Gavaskar used to mitigate his limitation by only playing a ball he could handle. Miandad by rotating the strike (while his reflexes were still strong).

    That being said, I have no idea why the article writer made the conclusions he did. Here is a summary of the dismissals "at the wicket" (excl. stumpings/runouts):

    Miandad: 21 times bowled
    Gavaskar: 33 times bowled

    Miandad: 33 times LBW
    Gavaskar: 17 times LBW

    Miandad: 54 total dismissals at the wicket
    Gavaskar: 50 total dismissals at the wicket

    Not much to read into.

  20. #20
    Debut
    Dec 2010
    Venue
    Mississauga
    Runs
    82,412
    Mentioned
    833 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post

    Second one was surely out.


    Fear the Creator ..... not the created.

  21. #21
    Debut
    Sep 2014
    Runs
    12,970
    Mentioned
    277 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Not much to be said in this regard to be honest. Apart for English Umpiring (which MUST be appreciated), my memory of early days cricket from early 70s (either live of archives) tells, every host Umpiring had been pathetic. PAK umpires get bashed more because, they have been "raw level" stupid to be honest - made howlers or apparently "non productive" bias (if you are cunning, you can change the course of a match by just couple of deliberate wrong decision) & they didn't have the media back up. Once Gavasker said - "You need to know when to do the tricks, they (Aussies) know that", & as expected, PAK umpires matched their board perfectly. Shakoor Rana gets lots of bashing & rightly so, but I still have some memory of Pilu Reporter & Suresh Taraya (?) from Bangalore '87. One advantage that I have is I don't have country bias - in that regard, I probably write things that I can back. Based on that, I can safely say that most biased & cunning umpiring I have seen is from Aussie umpires, followed by more or less every one. For AUS's credit, I must say that they had the team to back that "Favor", which most others didn't have.

    West Indies had a tremendous team, but their umpires were even more notorious - once Viv ran to threat the umpire & he gave Jones LBW (later revised), but WI initially appealed for Caught Behind. Mr. Hue Shung (?), once told someone (Imran ?) on why, not given Grineedge LBW - "Mr. *****, you 'll play the game & leave this island in few days time, I'll have to live here & I have kids.......". WI remained unbeaten for 18 years at home, mostly thanks to the Umpires at Barbados Test, 1988. Kiwi umpires were the main force for them to be unbeaten in home for almost 1 decade. Gavasker & Vengsarker were the biggest beneficiary at home, but it was more with the close catching by Indian fielders that got "extra" support from their umpires. I mentioned Bangalore Test, but, there are few more - highest I saw, umpire Choudhury (?) - Jadeda knicked & started walking, umpire started raising finger & then suddenly felt something in his hair, so he used his index finger to scratch the head, Jadeja made a gesture that he was taking a walk for focusing more & the bowler told his mustache, on his real feeling of the father & mother of the umpire........

    Finally, coming back to AUS - it was a strategic & very thoughtful "work out" - I suggest anyone to figure-out some in-depth analysis on this. % LBW doesn't tell anything because matches in AUS are played 20-30% more bouncier wickets. One can check how many times AUS got a break-through just before a break (Tea or lunch) with a dubious call; or how many times they had a match changing partnership after surviving one "obvious" call - that Hobert Test I'll never forget.

    I can give a statistical analysis - few figures might have lost in 23 years but, still most are accurate.

    IND went to AUS in 1991-92 Summer for 5 Test & I was free that couple of months (in AUS) - so watched every Test, by ball. IND lost that series 4-0 & at the end of the Series, No. of LBW given in favor of both sides were almost same. Now,

    1. IND had about 10 or 11 LBWs for Aussies from No. 7 to 11 - only Aussie in top 6, ONCE out was Jones. Aussies had Azhar 2 times, ST 1 or 2 times, Vengsarker 2 times, Shastri 1 or 2 times, Mangrekar 1 & Kapil 1
    2. Boon & Taylor were man in form that time for AUS - made 4 or 5 hundreds together - at least 3 of those 100s were match winning & twice they were out any where out side AUS. You don't need to "serve" batsmen with names - it's about the batsmen in form. A 35 years old Javed or ST 'll not do much damage for a 2nd life, what a 25 years young batsmen in form can do.
    3. Here comes the technical aspect - IND had bowlers in Kapil, Manoj & Srinath - bowlers mostly bringing their stock deliver in-wards; AUS had Reid, Hughes, Whitney & probably McDermott - those who understands cricket should some-up what should be the % LBW for these 2 sets of bowlers on a particular series
    4. IND got only Test at SCG, where they had the attack to hit back Aussies (Though a 1st class gobbet picked 4 seemers & Shastri as only spinner), still, IND got AUS on the mat on Day 5 & then Border saved the match with Whitney (one can see the 5th Day of SCG New Years' Test, 1992)
    5. Adelaide is the best batting wicket in AUS - somehow IND got AUS all-out for 120 or so (A small total, can't recall what) - then the game started for umpires. 8 Indian batsmen were out LBW on that Adelaide track - ST, Azhar, Kapil (twice ?), Manoj, Manjrekar & couple I can't recall - Indians did get Geof Marsh though.

    An year back, I watched the MCG Test between PAK & AUS & then Adelaide Test .........................

    All I can say is that, it's a debatable issue & ICC did great to introduce 3rd country umpires (Umpires should be neutral, therefore no point saying Neutral umpires), for which KHAN should get lots of praise. The stories I put here are apparently targeting Aussies, because of Mr. big mouth Steve Waugh, who should keep his dirty mouth in check - just like when Ganguly applied "mental disintegration" therapy. Probably, I can tell same story for most teams (apart from the Poms, really respected umpires), but apart from Aussies, I don't think any other country (their commentators, former players) such shamelessly point fingers to others. Can anyone ask Steve Waugh, how they got ST "Chest Before Wicket" at Adelaide or Izaj at Hobert '96?
    Heard Imran Khan and Ranatunga complain about the Aussie umpiring as well.

  22. #22
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Venue
    Peshawar
    Runs
    32,691
    Mentioned
    2029 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    So with proof now, gavaskar was a much much better than miandad?
    Gavaskar was India's greatest player. And surely he was better than Miandad


    Eat, Sleep, Back The Team....Repeat!

  23. #23
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Vengeance Oval
    Runs
    3,617
    Mentioned
    693 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    Are khan....isse acchi to bab-e-ali par hoti hegi.


    Left Handed Batsman for Arch Nemesis

  24. #24
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Bhopal
    Runs
    2,139
    Mentioned
    83 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Second one was surely out.
    So was the first one.

  25. #25
    Debut
    Nov 2015
    Venue
    Delhi, India
    Runs
    3,515
    Mentioned
    345 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Why? Miandad was an ATG, just like Gavasker and it wasn't just Miandad who was benefiting from home umpires.

    We should also keep in mind that when Miandad travelled overseas, he was routinely given out, wrongly. His away average is ~45 and his home average is ~60; Had he been playing in the era of neutral umpires, those averages would have been higher and lower, respectively.
    I didnt say Miandad wasnt an ATG. But if we compare both of them, Gavaskar edges ahead

  26. #26
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Venue
    Karachi
    Runs
    18,811
    Mentioned
    1021 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    I didnt say Miandad wasnt an ATG. But if we compare both of them, Gavaskar edges ahead
    Gavaskar is well ahead. Both are greats


    #MPGA

  27. #27
    Debut
    Nov 2015
    Venue
    Delhi, India
    Runs
    3,515
    Mentioned
    345 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    It actually balances out - can you put the 2 LBWs Mac (or Aussies) got in WSC Final 1996, against Kalu - he was the Man of the Tournament of that series.
    WTH... What was this umpire thinking. Inzy was laughing as if saying why are you even shouting McGrath, he wont give me out...

  28. #28
    Debut
    May 2015
    Runs
    929
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by #GreenRoars View Post
    Gavaskar was India's greatest player. And surely he was better than Miandad
    I personally never liked Mianad's technique, front foot forward and looking to nudge around for singles and twos, limited strokes for boundary hitting.... But he was mentally very tough and had a good game sense and that's why scored heavily... Legend of the game, truly...

  29. #29
    Debut
    Sep 2012
    Runs
    2,102
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think both Miandad and Gavaskar are slightly over-rated just because they played in the 70s/80's.

    The more i study their careers, the more i feel Inzamam was ahead of Miandad and Tendulkar was ahead of Gavaskar in tests.

  30. #30
    Debut
    May 2015
    Runs
    929
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrolln View Post

    The more i study their careers, the more i feel Inzamam was ahead of Miandad and Tendulkar was ahead of Gavaskar in tests.
    Agree with this but JM was a better clutch player, technically Izzy was better and had far more shots...

    Same with Sachin / Sunny

  31. #31
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Mississauga, Canada
    Runs
    26,327
    Mentioned
    781 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    I didnt say Miandad wasnt an ATG. But if we compare both of them, Gavaskar edges ahead
    "Edges ahead" is different to what you said before. There is very little to separate legendary batsmen or bowlers so no one is far ahead of anyone else.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  32. #32
    Debut
    Nov 2015
    Venue
    Delhi, India
    Runs
    3,515
    Mentioned
    345 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    "Edges ahead" is different to what you said before. There is very little to separate legendary batsmen or bowlers so no one is far ahead of anyone else.
    Ha ha ha... ok. But still in my opinion gavaskar has done enough to be called a better player than miandad. No disrespect to miandad, he was an ATG but certainly not at par with gavaskar.

  33. #33
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Mississauga, Canada
    Runs
    26,327
    Mentioned
    781 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ankit007 View Post
    Ha ha ha... ok. But still in my opinion gavaskar has done enough to be called a better player than miandad. No disrespect to miandad, he was an ATG but certainly not at par with gavaskar.
    Nothing wrong is saying that Gavasker was the better player; I believe this too. However, saying that one was better than the other by a big margin would be a false statement. There is little to separate ATG players from each other.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  34. #34
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by #GreenRoars View Post
    So what if old Javed got away with a couple of close ones in his day? He was a magnificent player. Our capacity to doubt the judgement of umpires has always far exceeded their tendency to make mistakes.
    To think that Pakistani umpiring was just a few harmless mistakes and that Gavaskar and Miandad received anywhere near the same benefit from home umpires is fallacious. Here are the four relevant averages (cutoff date Nov 5 1985, the introduction of neutral umpires).

    Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?p...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    Miandad: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?r...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    Yes, that is not a typo. Miandad was actually averaging less than half abroad than he was at home. Gavaskar on the other hand was averaging a bit more abroad than at home.

    The introduction of neutral umpires had a dramatic impact on Miandad. His home average plummeted from 78.14 to 39.90.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?d...ields=viewtype

    It is not as if Miandad got old and the fall in his average was due to that reason. During the same time (post-neutral umpires) his away average actually rose from 37.96 to 58.63.

    Another Pakistani batsman I remember who made it a habit at home of blocking Indian spinners with his legs was Zaheer Abbas. Average at home 58.19 and away 36.87.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?o...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?o...ields=viewtype

    It wasn't just Miandad and Abbas who were benefitting from home umpires, opposing team bowlers like Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Prasanna had their careers stunted.

    I know posters like @Junaids and @Syed1 complain about India, would like to know how they explain these numbers?
    @Hitman @Tusker @sensible-indian-fan

  35. #35
    Debut
    Dec 2011
    Runs
    10,862
    Mentioned
    598 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Not much to be said in this regard to be honest. Apart for English Umpiring (which MUST be appreciated), my memory of early days cricket from early 70s (either live of archives) tells, every host Umpiring had been pathetic. PAK umpires get bashed more because, they have been "raw level" stupid to be honest - made howlers or apparently "non productive" bias (if you are cunning, you can change the course of a match by just couple of deliberate wrong decision) & they didn't have the media back up. Once Gavasker said - "You need to know when to do the tricks, they (Aussies) know that", & as expected, PAK umpires matched their board perfectly. Shakoor Rana gets lots of bashing & rightly so, but I still have some memory of Pilu Reporter & Suresh Taraya (?) from Bangalore '87. One advantage that I have is I don't have country bias - in that regard, I probably write things that I can back. Based on that, I can safely say that most biased & cunning umpiring I have seen is from Aussie umpires, followed by more or less every one. For AUS's credit, I must say that they had the team to back that "Favor", which most others didn't have.

    West Indies had a tremendous team, but their umpires were even more notorious - once Viv ran to threat the umpire & he gave Jones LBW (later revised), but WI initially appealed for Caught Behind. Mr. Hue Shung (?), once told someone (Imran ?) on why, not given Grineedge LBW - "Mr. *****, you 'll play the game & leave this island in few days time, I'll have to live here & I have kids.......". WI remained unbeaten for 18 years at home, mostly thanks to the Umpires at Barbados Test, 1988. Kiwi umpires were the main force for them to be unbeaten in home for almost 1 decade. Gavasker & Vengsarker were the biggest beneficiary at home, but it was more with the close catching by Indian fielders that got "extra" support from their umpires. I mentioned Bangalore Test, but, there are few more - highest I saw, umpire Choudhury (?) - Jadeda knicked & started walking, umpire started raising finger & then suddenly felt something in his hair, so he used his index finger to scratch the head, Jadeja made a gesture that he was taking a walk for focusing more & the bowler told his mustache, on his real feeling of the father & mother of the umpire........

    Finally, coming back to AUS - it was a strategic & very thoughtful "work out" - I suggest anyone to figure-out some in-depth analysis on this. % LBW doesn't tell anything because matches in AUS are played 20-30% more bouncier wickets. One can check how many times AUS got a break-through just before a break (Tea or lunch) with a dubious call; or how many times they had a match changing partnership after surviving one "obvious" call - that Hobert Test I'll never forget.

    I can give a statistical analysis - few figures might have lost in 23 years but, still most are accurate.

    IND went to AUS in 1991-92 Summer for 5 Test & I was free that couple of months (in AUS) - so watched every Test, by ball. IND lost that series 4-0 & at the end of the Series, No. of LBW given in favor of both sides were almost same. Now,

    1. IND had about 10 or 11 LBWs for Aussies from No. 7 to 11 - only Aussie in top 6, ONCE out was Jones. Aussies had Azhar 2 times, ST 1 or 2 times, Vengsarker 2 times, Shastri 1 or 2 times, Mangrekar 1 & Kapil 1
    2. Boon & Taylor were man in form that time for AUS - made 4 or 5 hundreds together - at least 3 of those 100s were match winning & twice they were out any where out side AUS. You don't need to "serve" batsmen with names - it's about the batsmen in form. A 35 years old Javed or ST 'll not do much damage for a 2nd life, what a 25 years young batsmen in form can do.
    3. Here comes the technical aspect - IND had bowlers in Kapil, Manoj & Srinath - bowlers mostly bringing their stock deliver in-wards; AUS had Reid, Hughes, Whitney & probably McDermott - those who understands cricket should some-up what should be the % LBW for these 2 sets of bowlers on a particular series
    4. IND got only Test at SCG, where they had the attack to hit back Aussies (Though a 1st class gobbet picked 4 seemers & Shastri as only spinner), still, IND got AUS on the mat on Day 5 & then Border saved the match with Whitney (one can see the 5th Day of SCG New Years' Test, 1992)
    5. Adelaide is the best batting wicket in AUS - somehow IND got AUS all-out for 120 or so (A small total, can't recall what) - then the game started for umpires. 8 Indian batsmen were out LBW on that Adelaide track - ST, Azhar, Kapil (twice ?), Manoj, Manjrekar & couple I can't recall - Indians did get Geof Marsh though.

    An year back, I watched the MCG Test between PAK & AUS & then Adelaide Test .........................

    All I can say is that, it's a debatable issue & ICC did great to introduce 3rd country umpires (Umpires should be neutral, therefore no point saying Neutral umpires), for which KHAN should get lots of praise. The stories I put here are apparently targeting Aussies, because of Mr. big mouth Steve Waugh, who should keep his dirty mouth in check - just like when Ganguly applied "mental disintegration" therapy. Probably, I can tell same story for most teams (apart from the Poms, really respected umpires), but apart from Aussies, I don't think any other country (their commentators, former players) such shamelessly point fingers to others. Can anyone ask Steve Waugh, how they got ST "Chest Before Wicket" at Adelaide or Izaj at Hobert '96?
    One thing i have noticed about the OZ is that players/umpires/commentators and even the fans at the ground all get together to mentally disintegrate the opposition even if it means adopting unfair methods which are totally against the spirit of the game and then you have the likes of Steve Waugh complaining about everybody else. I'd read an article once about how Waugh, angry at losing the first two tests in India 98, was abusing Erappalli Prasanna when he suggested that OZ spinners were clueless while bowling in India. ironically, it was Prasanna's advice that helped Gavin Robertson bowl much better in the 3rd test and salvage some pride for the OZ. Very informative post and i can't believe i'd missed this gem.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  36. #36
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    This is why Imran Khan led the fight for neutral umpires when the leading lights in the ICC were set against it. To dispel all suspicions about home umpires. What a legend the great Khan was!
    Imran Khan suggested it because he himself realized how pathetic some of the umpires in Pakistan were. You need to hear stories about Shakoor Rana and realize there was no way forward besides neutral umpires.

  37. #37
    Debut
    Apr 2011
    Venue
    Toronto (Dhaka)
    Runs
    15,631
    Mentioned
    988 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    Imran Khan suggested it because he himself realized how pathetic some of the umpires in Pakistan were. You need to hear stories about Shakoor Rana and realize there was no way forward besides neutral umpires.
    No, give credit where it's due.

    Imran wanted to beat the best side in world, West Indies & he wanted to beat them fair & squire so that no one points finger, hence 2 Indian Umpires were officiating in 1986 Series. With local Umpires, PAK would have won that Series 2-1. After that, IND came to PAK in 1989, and 2 English umpires officiated - Imran categorically mentioned somewhere I forgot, that he doesn't want a touring side suffer the same feeling he had at Bridgetown & Bangalore (his point was - may be Umpires didn't do it deliberately, but when any wrong decision favor the home side, tourists will always feel it that way). Regarding "realized how pathetic PAK umpires" - I don't think it sounds too dignified from you, if you are from IND or SRL .........

    Between that 1986 & 1989 Series, Imran didn't lead Test series at home, Javed was Captain & PAK umpires returned. However, after that IND Series, I think Imran led only twice at home, which were played under PAK Umpires - so that "no way forward" doesn't stand.

  38. #38
    Debut
    Apr 2017
    Runs
    111
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Pakistan were routinely screwed over because of foreign umpires. We should have beaten the West Indies at their peak if the West Indian umpires had the guts to give Richards LBW.
    Oh come on ! Everyone gets a howler. Even Wasim has admitted that both Imran and Javed were plumb in '92 final and Botham was not out, ball brushed his sleeve.

  39. #39
    Debut
    Jan 2005
    Venue
    Orlando, FL
    Runs
    25,695
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Indian posters having no clue as usual when slanting Pak umpires yet failing to accept the fact that their umpires did not get nominated for Nobel Peace prize (s) either; some of them were as corrupt and inept as they come!

    Indian Fans (especially those who have posted here): Is it any coincidence that up until a year or two ago, India (BCCI) in the prime of their power could not come up with 1 decent umpire to be part of the elite umpires list for years on?

    There is a reason behind that especially since they had no 'Brilliant Umpires' to look upto, IMO :-)


    Sir Mamoon:
    Is Yasir a very good spinner? No - Is Yasir good enough for overseas Tests? No

  40. #40
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Gaur View Post
    Oh come on ! Everyone gets a howler. Even Wasim has admitted that both Imran and Javed were plumb in '92 final and Botham was not out, ball brushed his sleeve.
    Nice epilogue by Pringle (the wronged bowler) "Imran used the 22-run win to raise funds for a cancer hospital in Lahore in memory of his mother — as noble a cause to arise from sporting victory as there has been. For me, knowing a great deed came of it made defeat — and Bucknor’s blooper — more acceptable."

  41. #41
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Monsee View Post
    Indian posters having no clue as usual when slanting Pak umpires yet failing to accept the fact that their umpires did not get nominated for Nobel Peace prize (s) either; some of them were as corrupt and inept as they come!

    Indian Fans (especially those who have posted here): Is it any coincidence that up until a year or two ago, India (BCCI) in the prime of their power could not come up with 1 decent umpire to be part of the elite umpires list for years on?

    There is a reason behind that especially since they had no 'Brilliant Umpires' to look upto, IMO :-)
    Instead of ranting about "Indian Fans" why don't you address the actual reality of pre-neutral umpires averages of:
    Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11
    Miandad: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

    And Miandad's post neutral umpires average plunging to 39.9 from 78?

    Find me one, just one Indian batsman whose average declined so much due to neutral umpires (while away average not being similarly affected) and I will agree you have a point.
    Last edited by Napa; 18th April 2017 at 18:55.

  42. #42
    Debut
    Apr 2017
    Runs
    111
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Monsee View Post
    Indian posters having no clue as usual when slanting Pak umpires yet failing to accept the fact that their umpires did not get nominated for Nobel Peace prize (s) either; some of them were as corrupt and inept as they come!

    Indian Fans (especially those who have posted here): Is it any coincidence that up until a year or two ago, India (BCCI) in the prime of their power could not come up with 1 decent umpire to be part of the elite umpires list for years on?

    There is a reason behind that especially since they had no 'Brilliant Umpires' to look upto, IMO :-)
    Usual rant with no proof that Indian umpires were worse than the likes of Shakoor Rana, I accept that we haven't had decent umpires since Venkatraghavan but thats no crime. LOL!

    Plus our umpires like Shamsuddin had the decency to step down in the next game against ENG after gifting them two howlers, of course unlike Shakoor Rana and company who aided Pakistani players again and again as history proves.

  43. #43
    Debut
    May 2016
    Runs
    3,672
    Mentioned
    57 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    The umpire looks like Steve Francis (Srilankan Umpire).

    What is this Umpire's name?

  44. #44
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    The umpire looks like Steve Francis (Srilankan Umpire).

    What is this Umpire's name?
    It is actually Mohammad Nazir: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63811.html

  45. #45
    Debut
    Apr 2011
    Venue
    Surrey
    Runs
    2,038
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Those desperately trying to undermine Miandad's achievements here must remember that two of his six test double hundreds were outside Asia. Not many Asian batsmen incl. Sachin can boast of that record.

    260 vs England at The Oval in 1987
    271 vs NZ at Auckland (Hadlee did play) in 1989

  46. #46
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AZulfi View Post
    Those desperately trying to undermine Miandad's achievements here must remember that two of his six test double hundreds were outside Asia. Not many Asian batsmen incl. Sachin can boast of that record.

    260 vs England at The Oval in 1987
    271 vs NZ at Auckland (Hadlee did play) in 1989
    2 double centuries away are hardly exceptional.

    What is exceptional is: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

    And Home (pre-neutral) 78.14 and Home (post-neutral) 39.90!!!!

  47. #47
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    10,692
    Mentioned
    1334 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    To think that Pakistani umpiring was just a few harmless mistakes and that Gavaskar and Miandad received anywhere near the same benefit from home umpires is fallacious. Here are the four relevant averages (cutoff date Nov 5 1985, the introduction of neutral umpires).

    Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11

    Miandad: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

    Another Pakistani batsman I remember who made it a habit at home of blocking Indian spinners with his legs was Zaheer Abbas. Average at home 58.19 and away 36.87.


    It wasn't just Miandad and Abbas who were benefitting from home umpires, opposing team bowlers like Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Prasanna had their careers stunted.

    I know posters like @Junaids and @Syed1 complain about India, would like to know how they explain these numbers?
    @Hitman @Tusker @sensible-indian-fan
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I saw most of Javed Miandad's career.

    He was a technically limited but very tough batsman.

    He scored most of his runs in favourable conditions, and with home umpires until 1988 after which his output plummeted.

    Even his greatest achievements, the centuries in consecutive Tests in the West Indies in 1988, don't stand up to scrutiny. Curtly Ambrose was a rookie and Malcolm Marshall missed the First Test.

    Miandad was like a fiercely committed version of Ijaz Ahmed.
    @Napa
    I completely agree with you.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm anti-Indian. I enjoy teasing anybody - including Pakistanis - about what they are touchy about, and I do have a genuine issue about the behavior of the BCCI and certain recent Indian players. But then again I despise the MCC and Andrew Strauss and Cricket Australia too. And don't even get me started on the PCB or Najam Sethi.

    I completely agree that both Javed Miandad and Zaheer Abbas are massively over-rated due to puffed-up home records.

    Javed Miandad was a mediocre technician with a very strong temperament, who benefitted from dishonest home umpiring.

    Zaheer Abbas was a superb technician with a very weak temperament, who ended up actively scared of fast bowling and, along with Glenn Turner, the biggest coward I ever saw on the international stage.

    I would take Sunil Gavaskar ahead of those two every day of the week. And, as I keep writing, I think that from mid-1982 to mid-1983 Mohinder Amarnath was the greatest batsman in history, and yes, I do mean ahead of Don Bradman.

    I also think that Bishan Bedi was the greatest slow left-arm bowler that I have ever seen and that Erapalli Prasanna is the greatest off-spinner of my lifetime.

    So I'm very sorry if I appear anti-Indian. It might just be my style of writing and the fact that I enjoy teasing people! And I absolutely adore Shashank Manohar!
    Last edited by Junaids; 18th April 2017 at 23:01.

  48. #48
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    No, give credit where it's due.

    Imran wanted to beat the best side in world, West Indies & he wanted to beat them fair & squire so that no one points finger, hence 2 Indian Umpires were officiating in 1986 Series. With local Umpires, PAK would have won that Series 2-1. After that, IND came to PAK in 1989, and 2 English umpires officiated - Imran categorically mentioned somewhere I forgot, that he doesn't want a touring side suffer the same feeling he had at Bridgetown & Bangalore (his point was - may be Umpires didn't do it deliberately, but when any wrong decision favor the home side, tourists will always feel it that way). Regarding "realized how pathetic PAK umpires" - I don't think it sounds too dignified from you, if you are from IND or SRL .........

    Between that 1986 & 1989 Series, Imran didn't lead Test series at home, Javed was Captain & PAK umpires returned. However, after that IND Series, I think Imran led only twice at home, which were played under PAK Umpires - so that "no way forward" doesn't stand.
    I am not giving any credit to Imran, whatsoever. This is a revisionist attempt at history. It was obvious that Indians were so frustrated they there were rumblings that thay would never go back to Pakistan. Forget about lbw the Pakistani umpires would not even give a no ball. It was ridiculous.

    In India the biggest joke was that Imran Khan asked Bedi that if he would give up his spinners and Gavaskar Pakistan would have the best team in the world. Bedi in reply asked if he could give shakoor rana India would have the best team.

    That umpiring was pits. Imran had no choice.

  49. #49
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Napa
    I completely agree with you.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm anti-Indian. I enjoy teasing anybody - including Pakistanis - about what they are touchy about, and I do have a genuine issue about the behavior of the BCCI and certain recent Indian players. But then again I despise the MCC and Andrew Strauss and Cricket Australia too. And don't even get me started on the PCB or Najam Sethi.

    I completely agree that both Javed Miandad and Zaheer Abbas are massively over-rated due to puffed-up home records.

    Javed Miandad was a mediocre technician with a very strong temperament, who benefitted from dishonest home umpiring.

    Zaheer Abbas was a superb technician with a very weak temperament, who ended up actively scared of fast bowling and, along with Glenn Turner, the biggest coward I ever saw on the international stage.

    I would take Sunil Gavaskar ahead of those two every day of the week. And, as I keep writing, I think that from mid-1982 to mid-1983 Mohinder Amarnath was the greatest batsman in history, and yes, I do mean ahead of Don Bradman.

    I also think that Bishan Bedi was the greatest slow left-arm bowler that I have ever seen and that Erapalli Prasanna is the greatest off-spinner of my lifetime.

    So I'm very sorry if I appear anti-Indian. It might just be my style of writing and the fact that I enjoy teasing people! And I absolutely adore Shashank Manohar!
    Nice post but you lost me at Manohar part.

    Buddy I also post about empire and stuff to get a reaction but I am the biggest fan of England. I know people would look down upon me for saying this but I think Britain contributed alot to the growth of India. Moreover you guys had one of the biggest contribution in the entire history of mankind and that my hero Sir Issac Newton.

    Niceities aside the emire is still taking advantage of the brown man by charging so much for the CT. This way forum is more fun.

  50. #50
    Debut
    Apr 2011
    Venue
    Toronto (Dhaka)
    Runs
    15,631
    Mentioned
    988 Post(s)
    Tagged
    8 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    I am not giving any credit to Imran, whatsoever. This is a revisionist attempt at history. It was obvious that Indians were so frustrated they there were rumblings that thay would never go back to Pakistan. Forget about lbw the Pakistani umpires would not even give a no ball. It was ridiculous.

    In India the biggest joke was that Imran Khan asked Bedi that if he would give up his spinners and Gavaskar Pakistan would have the best team in the world. Bedi in reply asked if he could give shakoor rana India would have the best team.

    That umpiring was pits. Imran had no choice.
    Seems like you are adamant to prove that Imran was forced to go for neutral umpires in 1986 against WI, so that Indians don't decline to tour in 1989. Which is fine, but then Indians were must be convinced later, because there was a small tour in 1997 with PAK umpires. May be WICB also told to Imran that, if you don't put 2 Indian Umpires against us this time, India won't tour PAK 3 years later. However, no other team had any such issue, when Javed or Salim Malik was Captain - so, I must have to believe that it's not about PAK Umpires, it's the combo of Imran & PAK umpires .....

    Also, I do read a bit, but never read about this joke as well regarding Bedi - Imran, for that they played last time against each other was 1978, after 17 years of IND-PAK black out, when Imran was a junior member of the team. After that, next time Imran toured India was when Bedi had retired for 9 years - still, may be in social gathering in 1987 tour - then it had to be the driest jokes ever in India; for that Imran thinking Manindars & Shivlal Yadavs making PAK the best team in world, while Bedi must had kept him shame at home to ask for Shakior Arabs after that Bangalore Test.

  51. #51
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    10,692
    Mentioned
    1334 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    Nice post but you lost me at Manohar part.

    Buddy I also post about empire and stuff to get a reaction but I am the biggest fan of England. I know people would look down upon me for saying this but I think Britain contributed alot to the growth of India. Moreover you guys had one of the biggest contribution in the entire history of mankind and that my hero Sir Issac Newton.

    Niceities aside the emire is still taking advantage of the brown man by charging so much for the CT. This way forum is more fun.
    I really enjoy arguing with you. I don't take offence!

  52. #52
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    10,692
    Mentioned
    1334 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    I am not giving any credit to Imran, whatsoever. This is a revisionist attempt at history. It was obvious that Indians were so frustrated they there were rumblings that thay would never go back to Pakistan. Forget about lbw the Pakistani umpires would not even give a no ball. It was ridiculous.

    In India the biggest joke was that Imran Khan asked Bedi that if he would give up his spinners and Gavaskar Pakistan would have the best team in the world. Bedi in reply asked if he could give shakoor rana India would have the best team.

    That umpiring was pits. Imran had no choice.
    To be honest, the umpiring in India in the period 1976-77 to 1986-87 was almost - but not quite - as creative as it was in Pakistan.

    But there was none of this talk of India boycotting Pakistan. India was still a minnow in those days - the cricketing superpower days of today were unimaginable either on the pitch or economically.

    What boycotts there were between India and Pakistan were purely government-directed.

    Also, to be fair, whereas the likes of Javed Miandad were not particularly close to the Indians, some of the Pakistanis actually were.

    The obvious case is Mushtaq Mohammad, who was Bishan Bedi's Northants team-mate and the two were - and still are - the closest of close friends. But Intikhab Alam was also extremely close to the Indians, to the point that his Pakistan teammates used to wind him up by calling him Indian because he was born in the Indian Punjab and apparently how he spoke and his dining habits were in some way very Indian. (Not having visited either country and being unable to speak any Asian language I just can't comment on that).

    But Imran Khan was also fairly popular with the Indians. He had had the same sort of British public school (meaning private boarding school) education as the British elite, and shared their views about sport being a civilizing influence and something to bring people together. He was horrified by the likes of Shakoor Rana, which is why he refused to play in the home series v England in 86-87 and Australia in 87-88 because he knew full well that the umpires would cheat them, and he would rather not play than win by cheating.

    I'm no fan of Imran's later life after cricket. And I think he had all the worst aspects of the English upper classes as a captain - he was haughty (arrogantly superior and disdainful) and as he aged he clearly played favourites in terms of selection.

    But I watched him in a lot of John Player League, Gillette Cup and Benson and Hedges Cup televised county games in England, and I know that he got on well with the few Indians who played.

  53. #53
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    To be honest, the umpiring in India in the period 1976-77 to 1986-87 was almost - but not quite - as creative as it was in Pakistan.

    But there was none of this talk of India boycotting Pakistan. India was still a minnow in those days - the cricketing superpower days of today were unimaginable either on the pitch or economically.

    What boycotts there were between India and Pakistan were purely government-directed.

    Also, to be fair, whereas the likes of Javed Miandad were not particularly close to the Indians, some of the Pakistanis actually were.

    The obvious case is Mushtaq Mohammad, who was Bishan Bedi's Northants team-mate and the two were - and still are - the closest of close friends. But Intikhab Alam was also extremely close to the Indians, to the point that his Pakistan teammates used to wind him up by calling him Indian because he was born in the Indian Punjab and apparently how he spoke and his dining habits were in some way very Indian. (Not having visited either country and being unable to speak any Asian language I just can't comment on that).

    But Imran Khan was also fairly popular with the Indians. He had had the same sort of British public school (meaning private boarding school) education as the British elite, and shared their views about sport being a civilizing influence and something to bring people together. He was horrified by the likes of Shakoor Rana, which is why he refused to play in the home series v England in 86-87 and Australia in 87-88 because he knew full well that the umpires would cheat them, and he would rather not play than win by cheating.

    I'm no fan of Imran's later life after cricket. And I think he had all the worst aspects of the English upper classes as a captain - he was haughty (arrogantly superior and disdainful) and as he aged he clearly played favourites in terms of selection.

    But I watched him in a lot of John Player League, Gillette Cup and Benson and Hedges Cup televised county games in England, and I know that he got on well with the few Indians who played.
    Imran Khan was well like and respected by Indians. He was agreat draw in India. Inti (Intkahb Alam) was Bedi's friend and another well liked person. He went on to coach Punjab Ranji team and did a good job. Mushtaq Ahmed I will skip over because he made some controversial comments.

    Javed Miandad was deeply hated figure in India. Always will be. He was considered loud mouth obnoxious punk in India. It was combination of his behavior and other extra curricular stuff he did.

    Getting back to England one of the most devastating bowler you guys had was Arnold. He dismissed India for 42 (if I remember correctly) at Old Trafford. I could never forget the doom and gloom in Indian streets as if there was a death in the family. When they visited India the next time that was the first time I saw 5 slips. At end of the day English skipper (ex SA) guy had 10 close in fielders.

    India was truly a minnow then. No doubt. It was a treat to watch England then. People on this forum can think whatever they want to but at the end of the day England and India will always work there problems out when it comes to cricket. England would always tour India even when Aussies or WI declined.

    Those were indeed bad old days.

  54. #54
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Seems like you are adamant to prove that Imran was forced to go for neutral umpires in 1986 against WI, so that Indians don't decline to tour in 1989. Which is fine, but then Indians were must be convinced later, because there was a small tour in 1997 with PAK umpires. May be WICB also told to Imran that, if you don't put 2 Indian Umpires against us this time, India won't tour PAK 3 years later. However, no other team had any such issue, when Javed or Salim Malik was Captain - so, I must have to believe that it's not about PAK Umpires, it's the combo of Imran & PAK umpires .....

    Also, I do read a bit, but never read about this joke as well regarding Bedi - Imran, for that they played last time against each other was 1978, after 17 years of IND-PAK black out, when Imran was a junior member of the team. After that, next time Imran toured India was when Bedi had retired for 9 years - still, may be in social gathering in 1987 tour - then it had to be the driest jokes ever in India; for that Imran thinking Manindars & Shivlal Yadavs making PAK the best team in world, while Bedi must had kept him shame at home to ask for Shakior Arabs after that Bangalore Test.
    1978 is the series I am talkin about. Indians started getting fed up in that series. I still remember Majid Khan picked up his off stump and placed it like 5ft away to tease the Indian bowlers about their line. The Pakistani Umpire did not displine him. Yes there was a massive distrust of Pakistani umpires and they were considered a joke.

    Forget about words. Look at the empirical data above. That is not circumstantial. Those are hard facts. I will provide anecdotal example later.

  55. #55
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    2,057
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Monsee View Post
    Indian posters having no clue as usual when slanting Pak umpires yet failing to accept the fact that their umpires did not get nominated for Nobel Peace prize (s) either; some of them were as corrupt and inept as they come!

    Indian Fans (especially those who have posted here): Is it any coincidence that up until a year or two ago, India (BCCI) in the prime of their power could not come up with 1 decent umpire to be part of the elite umpires list for years on?

    There is a reason behind that especially since they had no 'Brilliant Umpires' to look upto, IMO :-)
    Umpiring is not a career that is considered lucrative any more. Commentating, statistician, TV analyst, coach etc have become far more lucrative. I dont think anyone will come in future too.

  56. #56
    Debut
    Jan 2017
    Venue
    Canada
    Runs
    1,041
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    The umpire looks like Steve Francis (Srilankan Umpire).

    What is this Umpire's name?
    WOW this is a joke ! That was plumb on both occasions. Who's this umpire ?

  57. #57
    Debut
    Jan 2005
    Venue
    Orlando, FL
    Runs
    25,695
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    1978 is the series I am talkin about. Indians started getting fed up in that series. I still remember Majid Khan picked up his off stump and placed it like 5ft away to tease the Indian bowlers about their line. The Pakistani Umpire did not displine him. Yes there was a massive distrust of Pakistani umpires and they were considered a joke.

    Forget about words. Look at the empirical data above. That is not circumstantial. Those are hard facts. I will provide anecdotal example later.


    Completely fabricated, you can clearly see the umpire having some words with majid right after the incident @4:34: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2g...-4-overs_sport

    I don't recall too many 'Disciplining' actions by umpires in those days so if you were expecting a series ban on the spot than tough!

    It is still to this day a fact that if Pak umpires were bad, Indian umpires were no angels either. Your hatred for Pak, Imran, Miandad etc. is shinning through in your refusal to give Imran any credit for pushing for and getting Neutral Umpires introduced to the world, if he was , you would probably want a knighthood at the least!


    Sir Mamoon:
    Is Yasir a very good spinner? No - Is Yasir good enough for overseas Tests? No

  58. #58
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Napa
    I completely agree with you.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that I'm anti-Indian. I enjoy teasing anybody - including Pakistanis - about what they are touchy about, and I do have a genuine issue about the behavior of the BCCI and certain recent Indian players. But then again I despise the MCC and Andrew Strauss and Cricket Australia too. And don't even get me started on the PCB or Najam Sethi.

    I completely agree that both Javed Miandad and Zaheer Abbas are massively over-rated due to puffed-up home records.

    Javed Miandad was a mediocre technician with a very strong temperament, who benefitted from dishonest home umpiring.

    Zaheer Abbas was a superb technician with a very weak temperament, who ended up actively scared of fast bowling and, along with Glenn Turner, the biggest coward I ever saw on the international stage.

    I would take Sunil Gavaskar ahead of those two every day of the week. And, as I keep writing, I think that from mid-1982 to mid-1983 Mohinder Amarnath was the greatest batsman in history, and yes, I do mean ahead of Don Bradman.

    I also think that Bishan Bedi was the greatest slow left-arm bowler that I have ever seen and that Erapalli Prasanna is the greatest off-spinner of my lifetime.

    So I'm very sorry if I appear anti-Indian. It might just be my style of writing and the fact that I enjoy teasing people! And I absolutely adore Shashank Manohar!
    Thanks for your post, and I have to say that I try to keep up with your teasing and give as good as I get.

    Looking forward to reading your posts about the CT. Not sure if you care as much about ODIs as you do about Tests.

  59. #59
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bleaf27 View Post
    WOW this is a joke ! That was plumb on both occasions. Who's this umpire ?
    It was Mohammad Nazir: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63811.html

  60. #60
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Venue
    Karachi
    Runs
    18,811
    Mentioned
    1021 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    I am not giving any credit to Imran, whatsoever. This is a revisionist attempt at history. It was obvious that Indians were so frustrated they there were rumblings that thay would never go back to Pakistan. Forget about lbw the Pakistani umpires would not even give a no ball. It was ridiculous.

    In India the biggest joke was that Imran Khan asked Bedi that if he would give up his spinners and Gavaskar Pakistan would have the best team in the world. Bedi in reply asked if he could give shakoor rana India would have the best team.

    That umpiring was pits. Imran had no choice.
    so how come Imran smacked India in India with Indian umpires


    #MPGA

  61. #61
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    2,057
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    so how come Imran smacked India in India with Indian umpires
    Exactly why he is called the great IK :-)

  62. #62
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    so how come Imran smacked India in India with Indian umpires
    Probably because during that series Pakistan genuinely had a better team!

    Of the 8 series Pakistan has played in India, it has won 1, drawn 3 and lost 4.

  63. #63
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    so how come Imran smacked India in India with Indian umpires
    That time they were better.

  64. #64
    Debut
    Feb 2012
    Venue
    Mississauga, Canada
    Runs
    26,327
    Mentioned
    781 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gr8Gaur View Post
    Oh come on ! Everyone gets a howler. Even Wasim has admitted that both Imran and Javed were plumb in '92 final and Botham was not out, ball brushed his sleeve.
    These were not howlers. Caribbean umpires were intentionally making faulty decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    To think that Pakistani umpiring was just a few harmless mistakes and that Gavaskar and Miandad received anywhere near the same benefit from home umpires is fallacious. Here are the four relevant averages (cutoff date Nov 5 1985, the introduction of neutral umpires).

    Gavaskar: Home 49.09; Away 52.11

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?p...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    Miandad: Home 78.14; Away 37.96

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?r...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    Yes, that is not a typo. Miandad was actually averaging less than half abroad than he was at home. Gavaskar on the other hand was averaging a bit more abroad than at home.

    The introduction of neutral umpires had a dramatic impact on Miandad. His home average plummeted from 78.14 to 39.90.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?d...ields=viewtype

    It is not as if Miandad got old and the fall in his average was due to that reason. During the same time (post-neutral umpires) his away average actually rose from 37.96 to 58.63.

    Another Pakistani batsman I remember who made it a habit at home of blocking Indian spinners with his legs was Zaheer Abbas. Average at home 58.19 and away 36.87.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?o...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?o...ields=viewtype

    It wasn't just Miandad and Abbas who were benefitting from home umpires, opposing team bowlers like Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Prasanna had their careers stunted.

    I know posters like @Junaids and @Syed1 complain about India, would like to know how they explain these numbers?
    @Hitman @Tusker @sensible-indian-fan
    India were a poor side even back then. Foreign teams did not have to employ drastic measures to beat them.

    Pakistan and West Indies had an intense rivalry going on, with both sets of home umpires making it incredibly difficult for each team to beat the other away. Pakistan were among the biggest beneficiaries of home umpires, along with the one of the biggest victims. This is why Imran Khan was at the forefront of the movement to introduce neutral umpires to cricket.

    Javed's home average should be much lower but his away average should be much higher. This is the view held by anyone who has seen matches during that era and knows a little bit about cricket's history.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  65. #65
    Debut
    Mar 2017
    Runs
    518
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Monsee View Post
    Completely fabricated, you can clearly see the umpire having some words with majid right after the incident @4:34: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2g...-4-overs_sport

    I don't recall too many 'Disciplining' actions by umpires in those days so if you were expecting a series ban on the spot than tough!

    It is still to this day a fact that if Pak umpires were bad, Indian umpires were no angels either. Your hatred for Pak, Imran, Miandad etc. is shinning through in your refusal to give Imran any credit for pushing for and getting Neutral Umpires introduced to the world, if he was , you would probably want a knighthood at the least!
    Let us get it straight and don't twist words, I mentioned Imran was well liked in India. Dont distort.

    I never said he did not have words with him. I said he did not discipline him. Like I said Pakistan had a well deserved reputation for pooe umpiring. You dont need words but look at data.

    Everything is not fabricated that you dont like. Here is what Sandhu said about Pakistan Umpires:

    "I was batting with Mohinder, when I saw that Sarfaraz Nawaz was over-stepping the crease by almost a foot. I brought this to the umpire's attention by drawing a line with my bat.

    So the next time, Sarfaraz over stepped, the umpire called out to him and said, "Sarfi yaar ball todhi peeche se dal, tu no-ball dal raha hai [Sarfaraz, you are bowling no-balls, bowl from a little behind]."

    "Tu apna kaam kar [You do your work]," said a clearly annoyed Sarfaraz within earshot.

    To which the umpire retorted, "Main to kar raha hoon, par Sandhu dekh raha hai [I am doing my job, but Sandhu is watching]."


    Not only you were tampering you were bowling almost a foot in front. India had no chance. Imran was trained in west and saw Pakistan was losing every credibility. Pakistan had no choice.

    Like I said quit revising history. I can go on and on.

  66. #66
    Debut
    Jun 2013
    Runs
    2,436
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Monsee View Post
    Indian posters having no clue as usual when slanting Pak umpires yet failing to accept the fact that their umpires did not get nominated for Nobel Peace prize (s) either; some of them were as corrupt and inept as they come!

    Indian Fans (especially those who have posted here): Is it any coincidence that up until a year or two ago, India (BCCI) in the prime of their power could not come up with 1 decent umpire to be part of the elite umpires list for years on?

    There is a reason behind that especially since they had no 'Brilliant Umpires' to look upto, IMO :-)
    Maybe you need to ask the Khan himself why he picked VK Ramaswamy and PD Reporter to stand as umpires in the Pak vs WI series circa 1986/87.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63442.html

    Cue: Difficult moment incoming ....
    Last edited by Tusker; 19th April 2017 at 12:44.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  67. #67
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Runs
    3,281
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    What I find ironic is thread was started by Pakistani poster

  68. #68
    Debut
    Jan 2017
    Venue
    Canada
    Runs
    1,041
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    so how come Imran smacked India in India with Indian umpires
    I wouldn't compare Imran with Javed. Javed was a hack saved by poor umpiring and his antics to be in the side.

  69. #69
    Debut
    Jan 2017
    Venue
    Canada
    Runs
    1,041
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Maybe you need to ask the Khan himself why he picked VK Ramaswamy and PD Reporter to stand as umpires in the Pak vs WI series circa 1986/87.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63442.html

    Cue: Difficult moment incoming ....
    If it weren't for the Umpires , Miandads proclaimed status as the best batsman of Pakistan would have been quite in danger.

  70. #70
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Runs
    3,281
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Anyways some of the things Lillee said about his Pakitan tour in his 2003 autobio..

    "The opening Test was staged at the National Stadium in Karachi and warning bells began to ring... Good lbw decisions were being knocked back, not one or two but six or seven early on. We had been told Javed [Miandad] had been out lbw only a couple of times in his entire career in Pakistan, a remarkable statistic... I must have had Zaheer out several times. He was badly out of touch but must have realised that as long as he kept his pads in front he would be fine. It was a nightmare because the wicket was so slow it wasn't carrying. Having a batsman caught in the slips or behind was almost impossible."

    "I was so frustrated at having appeals turned down that, finally, I turned to the umpire and asked how I was going to get a wicket. He looked me in the eye and said, "If you knock the wickets over, Mr Lillee, I will have to give him out".

    "[At the second test] Greg used all 11 of us as bowlers in that match, even Rod Marsh, who bowled 10 overs".

    "Two nights before the [Third] Test... I had a very hot curry. The effects of the meal hit me within a few hours of getting back to the hotel. Greg [Chappell] was very concerned and somehow got hold of a doctor in the early hours of the morning... I wasn't the first nor was I the last to fall sick on the sub-continent in those days. A lot of players went down with bad stomachs on tours of India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. I was just one of many so it was nothing new to play while or after being ill... Ill or not I still bowled 42 overs in that innings and took my first wickets of the tour... As a footnote, there were three lbws out of seven wickets in our first innings while we, once more, did not get one [when bowling]. The series split was 10-1."

    "It was tough but Pakistan was not all bad. I liked the different culture and I got on really well with Majid Khan. He remains a great mate from the game, as do Wasim Raja and Imran."

  71. #71
    Debut
    Jan 2005
    Venue
    Orlando, FL
    Runs
    25,695
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    Let us get it straight and don't twist words, I mentioned Imran was well liked in India. Dont distort.

    I never said he did not have words with him. I said he did not discipline him. Like I said Pakistan had a well deserved reputation for pooe umpiring. You dont need words but look at data.

    Everything is not fabricated that you dont like. Here is what Sandhu said about Pakistan Umpires:

    "I was batting with Mohinder, when I saw that Sarfaraz Nawaz was over-stepping the crease by almost a foot. I brought this to the umpire's attention by drawing a line with my bat.

    So the next time, Sarfaraz over stepped, the umpire called out to him and said, "Sarfi yaar ball todhi peeche se dal, tu no-ball dal raha hai [Sarfaraz, you are bowling no-balls, bowl from a little behind]."

    "Tu apna kaam kar [You do your work]," said a clearly annoyed Sarfaraz within earshot.

    To which the umpire retorted, "Main to kar raha hoon, par Sandhu dekh raha hai [I am doing my job, but Sandhu is watching]."


    Not only you were tampering you were bowling almost a foot in front. India had no chance. Imran was trained in west and saw Pakistan was losing every credibility. Pakistan had no choice.

    Like I said quit revising history. I can go on and on.


    All this silly talk would have been avoided by readiung this from my previous post, most of what you posted has no direct correlation to what we were discussing re: the Majid incident, and you not giving Props to Imran for starting the 'Neutral Umpires' trend:

    "I don't recall too many 'Disciplining' actions by umpires in those days so if you were expecting a series ban on the spot than tough!"


    Sir Mamoon:
    Is Yasir a very good spinner? No - Is Yasir good enough for overseas Tests? No

  72. #72
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    These were not howlers. Caribbean umpires were intentionally making faulty decisions.
    You are saying that Pakistan was deliberately favored by the Caribbean umpires in the 1992 WC finals, interesting!

    India were a poor side even back then. Foreign teams did not have to employ drastic measures to beat them.
    Pretty amazing how you ignore the evidence that is offered and go straight to your talking points. If India did indeed have a weaker team why Pakistan have to resort to such blatant cheating? The truth is that we will never know which was the better team due to the antics of the Pakistani umpires. Pakistan's bowling was better but India's batting was stronger.

    Javed's home average should be much lower
    It should have been half. This makes all Pakistani home victories during the pre-neutral umpires period suspect.

    but his away average should be much higher. This is the view held by anyone who has seen matches during that era and knows a little bit about cricket's history.
    This appeal to "view held by anyone" is a farce. Provide concrete statistics like I did if you wish to have others believe your points.

  73. #73
    Debut
    Dec 2015
    Runs
    4,879
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Yes, there were Pakistani umpires in the entire 1992 World Cup.

    His 9 100s in England, Australia, NZ, and WI also came due to Pakistani umpires officiating those games.

  74. #74
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Runs
    3,281
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Fascinating piece of Stat! Never looked at it that way until I read those comments in autobio. Here is that 3 test series:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ies/60487.html


    As you can see there were total of 12 lbws given in entire series. Grand-total of 1 Pakitani bat fell victim to lbw in comparison to 11 Aussie bats !!! So, all Pakistani batsmen pretty much had to be caught or bowled.

    No wonder Lillie averaged 101 for the series (a stat some members fondly use to disparage Lillliee's reputation around here).

    You don't have to be Einstein to realize something wasn't right here.

  75. #75
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ph_11 View Post
    India was truly a minnow then. No doubt. It was a treat to watch England then.
    India in the 1970s and 80s were anything but a minnow. They won a series against the WI in WI, and against England in England TWICE. They won Test matches against Australia in Australia.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...id=6;type=team

  76. #76
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    1,952
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Fascinating piece of Stat! Never looked at it that way until I read those comments in autobio. Here is that 3 test series:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ies/60487.html


    As you can see there were total of 12 lbws given in entire series. Grand-total of 1 Pakitani bat fell victim to lbw in comparison to 11 Aussie bats !!! So, all Pakistani batsmen pretty much had to be caught or bowled.

    No wonder Lillie averaged 101 for the series (a stat some members fondly use to disparage Lillliee's reputation around here).

    You don't have to be Einstein to realize something wasn't right here.
    The "art" of batting becomes an entirely different animal when you know you can't be given out LBW. You line up to make sure that the ball is stopped by your legs if you miss it with your bat. Unpleasant memories of the 80s tours of Pakistan by India, when the poor Indian spinners were destroyed by Pakistani batsmen who would simply kick away a ball they did not like.

    Yes, Imran should be respected for asking for neutral umpires. He wanted genuine victories, not ones manufactured by home umpires. He also realized that if he wanted respect of the other countries, he was not going to get it otherwise.

  77. #77
    Debut
    Feb 2015
    Runs
    3,281
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Biased umpiring was common and almost every player who played in per-neutral umpiring era had benefited/ lost because of it. However, statistical records do indicate some umpires being slightly more patriotic in their sentiment.

    From what I have read, English umpires were considered least biased.

  78. #78
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    10,692
    Mentioned
    1334 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Fascinating piece of Stat! Never looked at it that way until I read those comments in autobio. Here is that 3 test series:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ies/60487.html


    As you can see there were total of 12 lbws given in entire series. Grand-total of 1 Pakitani bat fell victim to lbw in comparison to 11 Aussie bats !!! So, all Pakistani batsmen pretty much had to be caught or bowled.

    No wonder Lillie averaged 101 for the series (a stat some members fondly use to disparage Lillliee's reputation around here).

    You don't have to be Einstein to realize something wasn't right here.
    Exactly.

    Pakistan was terrified of Lillee.

    So they produced dead wickets on which you could only be dismissed bowled or LBW. And used "trustworthy" hometown umpires.

    The Pakistan batsmen could just stand in front of their stumps with impunity. Even the keeper, the late Taslim Arif, made an innings of 210!

    This forum is the only place where the great Lillee gets disparaged for this.

  79. #79
    Debut
    Aug 2011
    Runs
    17,496
    Mentioned
    235 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Fascinating piece of Stat! Never looked at it that way until I read those comments in autobio. Here is that 3 test series:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ies/60487.html


    As you can see there were total of 12 lbws given in entire series. Grand-total of 1 Pakitani bat fell victim to lbw in comparison to 11 Aussie bats !!! So, all Pakistani batsmen pretty much had to be caught or bowled.

    No wonder Lillie averaged 101 for the series (a stat some members fondly use to disparage Lillliee's reputation around here).

    You don't have to be Einstein to realize something wasn't right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Exactly.

    Pakistan was terrified of Lillee.

    So they produced dead wickets on which you could only be dismissed bowled or LBW. And used "trustworthy" hometown umpires.

    The Pakistan batsmen could just stand in front of their stumps with impunity. Even the keeper, the late Taslim Arif, made an innings of 210!

    This forum is the only place where the great Lillee gets disparaged for this.
    It does give some perspective, but 2-3 tests shouldn't be used to hype or bash any player. It is hardly a big sample size.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  80. #80
    Debut
    Jan 2017
    Venue
    Abudhabi
    Runs
    1,139
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Haha. The biggest irony is that this thread was created to make it look like miandad was a victim of poor Indian umpiring but he is a biggest benificiary of horribly poor pak umpiring as shown by his stats where he averages half his home Average in away matches

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •