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  1. #1
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    Race-based selection is killing South Africa

    What I am about to write needs to be seen in the context of my campaigning and marching against Apartheid in the 1980's. I am no apologist for white supremacy.

    South Africa has enjoyed narrow supremacy in Test cricket in recent years. They rose to the top with thirteen players - because Jacques Kallis and AB De Villiers were effectively each filling two roles. Before the exit of Mark Boucher you will recall that they just had "12" players, and were not the Number 1 team.

    These dual roles have allowed them to carry non-White players in the team who are good but not international class cricketers - from Justin Ontong to Alviro Peterson to Robin Petersen to Ashwell Prince.

    But the exit of Kallis and the bad back of De Villiers have exposed these racial window-dressing games for what they are. In this latest match AB De Villiers has had to keep wicket against his will - and with no recent practice with the gloves - because Quinton De Kock is deemed unselectable due to his white colour.

    In fact, the injury to Dale Steyn might now open the door to De Kock, because the recall of Rabada for Steyn opens up a "white" berth for De Kock to fill.

    This is not what my friends and I marched - and got manhandled by Thatcher's Police - for.

    Racial selection is actually doing more harm than good to South African cricket. And poor Bavuma's horrible dismissal this morning is not going to attract black boys to cricket. Watching an inferior player struggle and fail isn't enticing anyone to pick up a bat or ball.

  2. #2
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    Quota System always hurt.

  3. #3
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    Strictly speaking from my personal perspective, I find the quota system as divisive as the initial exploitation.

    I believe that instead of creating such policies, governments must try to address grass root issues so that privilege could easily be divided.

    The sooner this ends, the better for cricket South Africa.

    Even before Boucher's retirement, they had a lot of high quality all-rounders, Kallis, McMillan, Cronje, Pollock, Klusener, & Richardson come to mind immediately that helped them maintain balance and carry a few players. Now they don't have this luxury and mediocrity is being found out and no one is there to balance up the act.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  4. #4
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    Dont think SA ever produced any quality Black Cricketers apart from Ntini. What is the reason behind only a few Black Cricketers when the country is Black majority?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
    Dont think SA ever produced any quality Black Cricketers apart from Ntini. What is the reason behind only a few Black Cricketers when the country is Black majority?
    Black kids never watch or play cricket. On TV it is hidden on subscription channels that only white or Indian people can afford.

    And black townships have no cricket fields or facilities, just rough ground to play soccer on.

  6. #6
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    Qouta system is never a good thing

  7. #7
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    Radoba did much better in India actually. If i'm not wrong he was the best quickie amongst the Southerners.

  8. #8
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    I am inclined to disagree.

    1. Team captain is no captain. In his body language and even tactically, ABDV is no match for Smith, let alone Cronje. Remember his interview with Rameez at the end of Pakistan's game at the World Cup? He was almost pleading.
    2. ABDV again. His role is to be team's best batsman. Burdened with captaincy, his free flowing batting is gone. I am sure bad back may have something to do with it, but if he can keep, he can bat.
    3. South Africa is going through a fallow period in batting. It may just be a fact. Happens to all teams.
    4. White players such as DeKock are good - but there don't seem to be many making a claim. Where is South African TalentspotterSA

    I believe Apartheid is a factor, but doesn't seem like the only explanation.

  9. #9
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    Well, they are covering for the damage done to Black population in the years gone by. Not the worst thing to do, but i get your point

  10. #10
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    This selection policy is highly anti-meritocratic and for that reason I feel as strongly against it as you do Junaids, but I think it is a bit unfair to pin all of South Africa's woes on it. As others have said there is simply a lack of talent in South Africa at the moment; that is to say, lack of talent that will allow them to maintain their clear number 1 status which they held onto for a while in recent years. Even if they pick their best XI I still think they would have gone down in India, and maybe lost to England too (given Steyn still gets injured in this alternate universe).

    And the quality in leadership has slumped enormously, they've lost Smith, Boucher, Kallis - de Villiers and Amla are not up to much as captains tactically nor as man managers. Where the selection policy is hurting them is with respect to Quinton de Kock as you said, and, by extension, de Villiers.
    Last edited by Pantani; 30th December 2015 at 08:46.


    I smash and grab and stash the cash in plastic bags
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
    Dont think SA ever produced any quality Black Cricketers apart from Ntini. What is the reason behind only a few Black Cricketers when the country is Black majority?
    Duminy is all right.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corridor of Uncertainty View Post
    I am inclined to disagree.

    1. Team captain is no captain. In his body language and even tactically, ABDV is no match for Smith, let alone Cronje. Remember his interview with Rameez at the end of Pakistan's game at the World Cup? He was almost pleading.
    AB de Villiers is not the test captain. It's Hashim Amla..

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Duminy is all right.
    He does nothing. An avg of 32 in tests.How's he all right?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    He does nothing. An avg of 32 in tests.How's he all right?
    in ODI's and T20's he is a decent player

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Duminy is all right.
    And Duminy is coloured, not black.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    in ODI's and T20's he is a decent player
    Tests..??nobody is talking about limited overs..

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corridor of Uncertainty View Post
    I am inclined to disagree.

    1. Team captain is no captain. In his body language and even tactically, ABDV is no match for Smith, let alone Cronje. Remember his interview with Rameez at the end of Pakistan's game at the World Cup? He was almost pleading.
    2. ABDV again. His role is to be team's best batsman. Burdened with captaincy, his free flowing batting is gone. I am sure bad back may have something to do with it, but if he can keep, he can bat.
    3. South Africa is going through a fallow period in batting. It may just be a fact. Happens to all teams.
    4. White players such as DeKock are good - but there don't seem to be many making a claim. Where is South African TalentspotterSA

    I believe Apartheid is a factor, but doesn't seem like the only explanation.
    Most of your points are my points.

    1. Amla is the skipper purely because he is not white. FAF du Plessis is obviously the bloke who should be skipper.

    2. De Villiers was forced to keep wicket against his wishes in this match so that they could pick an extra non-white player (Bavuma or Duminy).

    3. The batting could be fine. Open with de Kock and move Van Zyl down to 6 and drop Bavuma. But they can't, as it takes out the only Black African player.

    4. De Kock and De Lange and Abbott should play every Test. But they don't because omitting them allows three more non-white players to be picked.

  18. #18
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    How embarrassing.

    Amla is the skipper, and while he was being interviewed - and saying there might be one change WITHIN the squad with Steyn out, the selectors tweeted TWO additions to the squad.

    One of whom is De Kock, who can now be picked as one white player is out.

    It's all very well calling Amla the captain, but if you treat him like the Apartheid era coloured houseboy how does it help?

    The very best thing about ANC-ruled South Africa was that they didn't go down the Zimbabwe route. But now in cricket they are.

  19. #19
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    Am not in favor of quotas , but the current problems with SA has little to do with that . They simply are not producing Test quality batsmen to push the like of Duplesis and Dumminy who imo are fairly average .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Most of your points are my points.

    1. Amla is the skipper purely because he is not white. FAF du Plessis is obviously the bloke who should be skipper.

    2. De Villiers was forced to keep wicket against his wishes in this match so that they could pick an extra non-white player (Bavuma or Duminy).

    3. The batting could be fine. Open with de Kock and move Van Zyl down to 6 and drop Bavuma. But they can't, as it takes out the only Black African player.

    4. De Kock and De Lange and Abbott should play every Test. But they don't because omitting them allows three more non-white players to be picked.
    De Kock is not a test opener , does not have the technique .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
    Dont think SA ever produced any quality Black Cricketers apart from Ntini. What is the reason behind only a few Black Cricketers when the country is Black majority?
    Philander had a pretty good start in tests but has disappeared.Rabada has a good start
    Last edited by Arham_PakFan; 30th December 2015 at 10:00.

  22. #22
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    Don't like the quota system at all either. It does SA no favours whatsoever other than cause divisions and a sense that one player is only getting selected because he is entitled to.

    SA are certainly declining very fast. And when a ships stats to sink people will start to jump off unless the captain does something drastic to save it.

    By 2017 I think Steyn and De Villiers will be gone from the Test game. I think they wills still be fairly competitive in the limited overs formats though.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    De Kock is not a test opener , does not have the technique .
    This is where we must (politely) disagree.

    You are right that currently Quinton De Kock is a flawed batsman when a slip cordon is in place. But now that county cricket in England is so weak there is no finishing school for Test batsmen any more.

    So in my opinion players like De Kock, Babar Azam or Umar Akmal need to be selected and given a run of at least 10-12 Tests across at least three series so that they can adapt to Test cricket.

    Pakistan has done that with Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq with great results. But they are both around 30: the time has also come to replace Misbah and Younis with Babar Azam and Umar Akmal so that they too can develop into Test batsmen.

    The problem is that if you don't, as South Africa is discovering, your oldest batsmen (Smith/Kallis and Misbah/Younis) depart and leave a hole that you can't fill.

    I watched SA Under-19 v Pakistan Under-19 four years ago. And if De Kock, Ehsan Adil and Usman Qadir are not Test regulars NOW it is because their Boards have failed to develop their brightest talents.

    Look how Yasir Shah developed in 12 months on the road with Mushy giving daily tips and bowling to Younis and Misbah every day.

    Usman Qadir - who is also a really good batsman - should have been there too. And ready to go to replace Yasir Shah.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    De Kock is not a test opener , does not have the technique .
    Can't he bat at 7 with Van Zyl to open? No.7 is a perfect position for wkt batsmen..

  25. #25
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    Race based quota is all right. Might not give short term results, but will help South African Cricket in the long run.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    This is where we must (politely) disagree.

    You are right that currently Quinton De Kock is a flawed batsman when a slip cordon is in place. But now that county cricket in England is so weak there is no finishing school for Test batsmen any more.

    So in my opinion players like De Kock, Babar Azam or Umar Akmal need to be selected and given a run of at least 10-12 Tests across at least three series so that they can adapt to Test cricket.

    Pakistan has done that with Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq with great results. But they are both around 30: the time has also come to replace Misbah and Younis with Babar Azam and Umar Akmal so that they too can develop into Test batsmen.

    The problem is that if you don't, as South Africa is discovering, your oldest batsmen (Smith/Kallis and Misbah/Younis) depart and leave a hole that you can't fill.

    I watched SA Under-19 v Pakistan Under-19 four years ago. And if De Kock, Ehsan Adil and Usman Qadir are not Test regulars NOW it is because their Boards have failed to develop their brightest talents.

    Look how Yasir Shah developed in 12 months on the road with Mushy giving daily tips and bowling to Younis and Misbah every day.

    Usman Qadir - who is also a really good batsman - should have been there too. And ready to go to replace Yasir Shah.
    I agree with most parts , you need to identify talents and persist with them . Pakistan has been doing this mistake for a while , I have made several posts questioning their selection policy which is very short sighted and probably has been for few years now .

    Can De Kock develop into a good test player ? May be if he works on his game , but it will get extremely difficult as a Test opener , I believe you need a specialist for that spot unlike other batting positions . There is also a factor of playing a lot more LOI games these days which will never really allow batsmen to completely change their game for the longer format . On an average these batsmen play 50-70 LOI innings in a year and less than 20 Test innings , its really difficult to switch back into test mode unless you are like Shewag or Warner .


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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Race based quota is all right. Might not give short term results, but will help South African Cricket in the long run.
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Can't he bat at 7 with Van Zyl to open? No.7 is a perfect position for wkt batsmen..
    Yeah I think he will have a more successful career as a No 7 apart from technical issues there is also a WK factor which needs to be considered .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    Did you get to watch Bavuma ? I dint see much of him in India , though IIRC he did stcuk around for a while on a difficult pitch in one innings IIRC . is he actually that bad ?


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    Nah. Ontong was a hero to all those young kids


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    That is fine. You may disagree impolitely too, if you wish.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

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    FAF isn't playing well, nor was Vilas or van Zyl. All 3 are white.

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    Don't know why Stephen Cook isn't selected?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Race based quota is all right. Might not give short term results, but will help South African Cricket in the long run.
    I think SA cricket has thrived despite it, not because of it.

    But now only the wealthy white schools are bringing cricketers on, while the townships are switching to football.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Strictly speaking from my personal perspective, I find the quota system as divisive as the initial exploitation.

    I believe that instead of creating such policies, governments must try to address grass root issues so that privilege could easily be divided.

    The sooner this ends, the better for cricket South Africa.

    Even before Boucher's retirement, they had a lot of high quality all-rounders, Kallis, McMillan, Cronje, Pollock, Klusener, & Richardson come to mind immediately that helped them maintain balance and carry a few players. Now they don't have this luxury and mediocrity is being found out and no one is there to balance up the act.
    Eh...You think that the possibility that a few white South Africans might not being given a chance to play for the national cricket team as soon as they otherwise could, is as bad as Apartheid? If so, should Junaids be out marching on the streets again?

    With all due respect, get a perspective.

    On a necessarily lesser note.

    1. As others have noted, there are plenty of white cricketers on the team who are not performing well enough. On recent form these include Faf de Plessis , Junaids natural born captain, and de Kock, who in his career averages 33 in Tests, 5/6 of which Tests were against Zimbabwe, Windies, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Seems to me that 1. The main reason for de Kock's hitherto exclusion has been de Kock. 2 The problem is indeed a general drying up of talent 3. The quota system is very useful, as a scapegoat

    2. I would like to know where is the righteous indignation at the fact that a majority of South Africans are still structurally excluded from cricket, and relatively unlikely to take any interest in it, compared to their more privileged white compatriots. The ethics of it aside, this seems a huge waste of resources. If there is a single factor impeding the progress of the game in South Africa, it must surely be this, not the quota system

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    Why, if I can ask a very pointed question, do you assume that Bavuma will drown? In the one Test he played in India, only de Villiers scored more runs than he did. Is benefit of doubt, after doing poorly in one Test, something that only white players deserve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    Eh...You think that the possibility that a few white South Africans might not being given a chance to play for the national cricket team as soon as they otherwise could, is as bad as Apartheid? If so, should Junaids be out marching on the streets again?

    With all due respect, get a perspective.

    On a necessarily lesser note.
    Not bad or good - but divisive.

    Apartheid was horrible and created boundaries. In order to create harmony and reverse the impact, they should create a system that offers equal privilege to people without focus on their race.

    For that to happen, build schools, play grounds and invest in infrastructure so that there is no one left who is less privileged.

    Not go for a short term option like quota system and create a divide among races forever.

    If you think that quota system isn't divisive, then my good friend and with all due respect, you also need to get some perspective along with me.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think SA cricket has thrived despite it, not because of it.

    But now only the wealthy white schools are bringing cricketers on, while the townships are switching to football.
    That might be the case here, but there is nothing wrong with the quota system in principle. Any community that has been left behind because of decades of exploitation needs a helping hand. With time it will have its own icons, people the kids can look up to, and know hey, I can be like that too.

    Those who are against the quota system as just ignorant.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    That might be the case here, but there is nothing wrong with the quota system in principle. Any community that has been left behind because of decades of exploitation needs a helping hand. With time it will have its own icons, people the kids can look up to, and know hey, I can be like that too.

    Those who are against the quota system as just ignorant.
    That doesn't mean you apply these rules even in a World cup Semi final.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandapinda View Post
    That doesn't mean you apply these rules even in a World cup Semi final.
    Do you really think it matters which team is selected when it is South Africa and a World cup semi final?


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Do you really think it matters which team is selected when it is South Africa and a World cup semi final?
    Yes.This time it should have mattered.

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    Yes, you are right. They need to create justice, doesn't matter if 4-5 are whites or blacks but they should be good.


    Eat, Sleep, Back The Team....Repeat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    That might be the case here, but there is nothing wrong with the quota system in principle. Any community that has been left behind because of decades of exploitation needs a helping hand. With time it will have its own icons, people the kids can look up to, and know hey, I can be like that too.

    Those who are against the quota system as just ignorant.
    There has been a lot of scientific research on the futility of quota systems.

    But yes, brand us all together with one word "ignorant" and move on your merry way.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  44. #44
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    Players should be selected on merit and not due to skin colour, if that means 11 white people or 11 black people representing SA so be it.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    There has been a lot of scientific research on the futility of quota systems.

    But yes, brand us all together with one word "ignorant" and move on your merry way.
    Please share the scientific research on the effect of racial quota in south africa.


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    Completely agree, if those black kids are not inspired by Styen and ABD then nobody can inspire them. Whole world takes inspiration from legends like Styen and ABD!!! - Every race and color who plays cricket.

    This race quota is sicking and dark side of SA cricket, it's not going to help. Not breaking from past is ruining their present and will destroy future as well


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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  47. #47
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    It is a farcical system and needs to be abolished.


    I can't think of anything else but this machine. I sell here, Sir, what all the world desires to have - POWER

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Please share the scientific research on the effect of racial quota in south africa.
    Just a few things - first point is general problem associated with affirmative actions like quota system and the second extract is taken from a research study carried out only for South African labor market (since professional sports come under labor market, the findings also reflect sporting industry)

    "
    Reverse Discrimination

    One major disadvantage of affirmative action in the workplace is the reality or perception of reverse discrimination. In essence, those opposed to affirmative action programs claim that the programs penalize those from the historically dominant group -- generally white males -- even when they possess the appropriate qualifications for a given job. While reverse discrimination remains exceedingly rare in practice, the accusation of reverse discrimination can generate a negative social backlash for a company, which may undermine its financial future. The accusation can also potentially undercut the confidence of minority and women employees concerning their skill level.

    "
    and

    "
    This would
    suggest that affirmative action may have helped individuals from the designated
    groups who already found themselves higher up on the skills ladder, but that these
    effects were too small and concentrated on too few individuals to have had an
    impacted on the average previously disadvantaged individual.

    "

    I am not posting links because it isn't acceptable at this forum. Please study drawbacks of affirmative action for further enightenment through searching any public search engine.

    I am not denying the benefits of quota system, I am just implying that the benefits of quota system are outweighed by cons of that system.

    To create societies of the future, we need more policies that integrate people rather than continue to create various divides.

    If you have anything further to say to that, i concede my point - having discussions isn't my USP

    Have a good day


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Not bad or good - but divisive.

    Apartheid was horrible and created boundaries. In order to create harmony and reverse the impact, they should create a system that offers equal privilege to people without focus on their race.

    For that to happen, build schools, play grounds and invest in infrastructure so that there is no one left who is less privileged.

    Not go for a short term option like quota system and create a divide among races forever.

    If you think that quota system isn't divisive, then my good friend and with all due respect, you also need to get some perspective along with me.
    Isn't it a bit silly to disavow what you wrote when we call all scroll up a few lines and see for ourselves? The point is not the terminology but the comparison. You did not merely say that the quota system was divisive, but that it was "as divisive," as apartheid. ie you outright equated a sport teams selections process and an incredibly brutal system of segregation and racial rule. Not juxtapose or posit some ironic similarities betwixt, but outright equated. So I repeat. Get some perspective.

  50. #50
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    Excuses.. I don't support quota system but if you think SA has the best talent available to them and players of sachin and McGrath's caliber have to seat outside because of quota then it's total BS..

    As I have said before are van Zyl and Faf supposed to be quota players?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    Isn't it a bit silly to disavow what you wrote when we call all scroll up a few lines and see for ourselves? The point is not the terminology but the comparison. You did not merely say that the quota system was divisive, but that it was "as divisive," as apartheid. ie you outright equated a sport teams selections process and an incredibly brutal system of segregation and racial rule. Not juxtapose or posit some ironic similarities betwixt, but outright equated. So I repeat. Get some perspective.
    And I stand by the fact that it was as divisive in terms of creating boundaries and will remain so.

    Word play isn't my thing, nor debates hence if that helps you feel better, so be it.

    To me segregating people will remain the same, no matter what the reason is.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post

    As I have said before are van Zyl and Faf supposed to be quota players?
    Van Zyl has got just one chance and Faf is one of the valuable players in the team.

  53. #53
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    A bit of relevant thing z going in Pak cricket as well. Karachi, Lahore once rift has now turned in to blind Prejudice and Biasness. Thanks to GEo Super.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Just a few things - first point is general problem associated with affirmative actions like quota system and the second extract is taken from a research study carried out only for South African labor market (since professional sports come under labor market, the findings also reflect sporting industry)

    "
    Reverse Discrimination

    One major disadvantage of affirmative action in the workplace is the reality or perception of reverse discrimination. In essence, those opposed to affirmative action programs claim that the programs penalize those from the historically dominant group -- generally white males -- even when they possess the appropriate qualifications for a given job. While reverse discrimination remains exceedingly rare in practice, the accusation of reverse discrimination can generate a negative social backlash for a company, which may undermine its financial future. The accusation can also potentially undercut the confidence of minority and women employees concerning their skill level.

    "
    and

    "
    This would
    suggest that affirmative action may have helped individuals from the designated
    groups who already found themselves higher up on the skills ladder, but that these
    effects were too small and concentrated on too few individuals to have had an
    impacted on the average previously disadvantaged individual.

    "

    I am not posting links because it isn't acceptable at this forum. Please study drawbacks of affirmative action for further enightenment through searching any public search engine.

    I am not denying the benefits of quota system, I am just implying that the benefits of quota system are outweighed by cons of that system.

    To create societies of the future, we need more policies that integrate people rather than continue to create various divides.

    If you have anything further to say to that, i concede my point - having discussions isn't my USP

    Have a good day
    cons to whom? if south fricans are as victimized by this system as the study tries to suggest,
    why don't we settle the question by asking them if they want it disbanded? why do democratically
    elected governments continue to legislate it?

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    And I stand by the fact that it was as divisive in terms of creating boundaries and will remain so.

    Word play isn't my thing, nor debates hence if that helps you feel better, so be it.

    To me segregating people will remain the same, no matter what the reason is.
    Since you seem to be concerned about others feeling better, how do you think a majority
    of black South Africans would feel about that comparison? Also, you do know what segregation
    means right? Not quite the same thing as discrimination...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    That is fine. You may disagree impolitely too, if you wish.
    No, I'll keep it polite because I really enjoy your posts!

    We should all remember that the Tony Greig/ Allan Lamb effect continues.

    Would today's result have been the same if countless good enough white players had stayed in South Africa? Kevin Pietersen and Neil Wagner really would have strengthened this team.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    cons to whom? if south fricans are as victimized by this system as the study tries to suggest,
    why don't we settle the question by asking them if they want it disbanded? why do democratically
    elected governments continue to legislate it?

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    Since you seem to be concerned about others feeling better, how do you think a majority
    of black South Africans would feel about that comparison? Also, you do know what segregation
    means right? Not quite the same thing as discrimination...
    Answering both of your queries here.

    First: Are you saying that democratic governments always make the difficult choice even if public opinion is different from say any scientifically proven facts?

    Second: A black South African should realize that the way forward is by being inclusive and not creating another divide. If they don't see that, they are now doing the same mistake that their oppressors did before. Yes, the scale of the mistake is different but the underlying principle is the same.

    Third: Isn't segregation a type of discrimination? When you are segregating people, are you not also discriminating?

    Fourth: You conveniently miss my main point and continue to languish in this debate - I personally believe that the principle that led to apartheid and the principle to this day that leads in quota system is the same. It maintains a difference between people based on their color or other factors that they have no control with. It may seem naive but an inclusive society shouldn't carry out on past baggage. As I have stated, for a better utopian society, it is better to invest in infrastructure and create equal opportunities. Merit should be a prominent factor and all people should have access to equal facilities and services. No person should have a higher right and access to something because they were born a certain way.

    I will study some more and I will try to get a broader perspective of apartheid as you stated as well.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandapinda View Post
    That doesn't mean you apply these rules even in a World cup Semi final.
    That's wrong.

    Either you believe in the rules and apply them no matter what, or you don't have them.

    I for one don't believe in any sort of quota, ever, (it's the wrong way to compensate and there are better solutions), but if at all you want a quota it's absurd to say "well the quota isn't for really important matches".

  59. #59
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    Whites are just 8% of South Africa. CSA are just trying to maximise their profits by keeping the majority of the country interested.

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    Ridiculous policy.

    If South Africa want to be putting out their best XI on a regular basis then a racial (racist?) selection policy is not the way to be going about things.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Black kids never watch or play cricket. On TV it is hidden on subscription channels that only white or Indian people can afford.

    And black townships have no cricket fields or facilities, just rough ground to play soccer on.
    Does this poster still call himself English?

    I don't know a single Englishman who refers to 'football' as 'soccer'.
    Last edited by as-95; 30th December 2015 at 16:31.

  62. #62
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    as-95, I live in Australia. I used the word soccer in case Aussie readers confused rugby union and football, both of which they call football.

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    Does South Africa do this across all of their national sporting teams? Rugby? Football? Or is it only cricket?


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

  64. #64
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    People make a lot about the racial quotas which I personally disagree with, I understand the political need for transformation in South Africa post-apartheid and the need to involve black people more in all sectors of society including cricket, but all selections should be based on merit not political motivations.

    However whilst the racial divide is an issue, the biggest challenge facing SA today is the appalling levels of economic inquality, its one of the most unequal countries in the world. Cricket cannot survive in SA by merely being the preserve of the top government and private schools. SA's strong system of school cricket is to its credit, but CSA have to do more in reaching out to working class South Africans and get cricket out into the townships.

    CSA do bursary schemes for underprivileged kids but they're so limited and reach out to a small number of kids. With regards to their on-field situation, too many players are out of form. Amla undoubtedly is struggling with the captaincy, the loss of Kallis and Smith has been huge and like we've seen with Sri Lanka, when its time to phase out the seniors like De Villiers, Steyn and Amla there will be a tough transition period. Those will be massive shoes to fill.
    Last edited by Markhor; 30th December 2015 at 16:51.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deosai View Post
    Whites are just 8% of South Africa. CSA are just trying to maximise their profits by keeping the majority of the country interested.
    Just imagined how much a drag it would be if the USA Basketball had a quota system where it forced to have white players when playing in the olympics ? And How about if the Ice Hockey had a quota system?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    Just imagined how much a drag it would be if the USA Basketball had a quota system where it forced to have white players when playing in the olympics ? And How about if the Ice Hockey had a quota system?
    While your logic is wrong (privileged class don't need quotas, it is the unprivileged who need it), a valid question has been raised by some critics, that should quota be introduced in white sports. If it is just because whites prefer to play the sport, and there is no institutional discrimination, then no quota is needed. However, if there is institutional discrimination against the unprivileged, quota is necessary.


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    My view is that the best available XI should be selected,regardless of their skin color

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deosai View Post
    Whites are just 8% of South Africa. CSA are just trying to maximise their profits by keeping the majority of the country interested.
    Thing is, the black majority population is being targeted but the cricket isn't even broadcast on free to air channels.

    Bavuma, Piedt and Duminy led by Amla are there for their consumption. But they don't even know the game is taking place.

    The economic and cultural consequences of Apartheid aren't so easily rectified.

    Zimbabwe is a good example. In 1999, long after 80% of the whites had fled the country, the team was still white apart from one player but was really competitive, both at the World Cup and in Tests.

    Then the sports minister imposed a cap of four white players per team and Zimbabwe has been both rubbish and unwatchable ever since.

    It's a great idea to get the majority black population hooked on cricket. But it needs huge grassroots investment, rather than quotas in the national team.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    While your logic is wrong (privileged class don't need quotas, it is the unprivileged who need it), a valid question has been raised by some critics, that should quota be introduced in white sports. If it is just because whites prefer to play the sport, and there is no institutional discrimination, then no quota is needed. However, if there is institutional discrimination against the unprivileged, quota is necessary.
    Lets have quota for the Indian cricket team to help the dalits and the poor. It won't work because the poor don't play hard ball cricket, they can't afford the coaching, equipments and so on. At furthest, they'll become a fast bowler because running and delivering a ball at 80+ MPH will give you attention anywhere. In US the underprivileged do not play Ice hockey, it is too damn expensive more expensive than cricket. Quota system is useless because those underprivileged don't play in large numbers that can produce good enough half baked athletes to represent the national team. Quota system won't work. It is best to let each race represent their nation in their own sport. The RSA soccer team is full of blacks, so just let them represent RSA in soccer.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Thing is, the black majority population is being targeted but the cricket isn't even broadcast on free to air channels.

    Bavuma, Piedt and Duminy led by Amla are there for their consumption. But they don't even know the game is taking place.

    The economic and cultural consequences of Apartheid aren't so easily rectified.

    Zimbabwe is a good example. In 1999, long after 80% of the whites had fled the country, the team was still white apart from one player but was really competitive, both at the World Cup and in Tests.

    Then the sports minister imposed a cap of four white players per team and Zimbabwe has been both rubbish and unwatchable ever since.

    It's a great idea to get the majority black population hooked on cricket. But it needs huge grassroots investment, rather than quotas in the national team.
    After the end of systemic racism in US, it took them several decades to integrate blacks and whites. Even now neighbourhoods are divided. It has been over half a century since the end of systemic racism. It will take at least couple of decades in RSA. Even now most of the black cricketers have been bowlers, not batsmen, that tells a lot.

  71. #71
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    Like the Op I also grew up in the apartheid era and found the concept inhumane and abhorrent. So it was great to see the system destroyed but I was weary of post colonial African leaders as nearly every one was crooked and used the poor countries as personal piggy banks but initially SA and Mandela did well but SA has started to become like all the other African countries with a predatory elite, looking to loot an uneducated population, does it remind you of a certain South Asian country They use terms like apartheid apologist for anyone willing to challenge their looting and destruction of the country. The selection of the cricket team and its march towards mediocrity is a just a microcosm of a country on a path to destruction.

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    All this argument about race is BS. If there were 5 hindus in the Pakistan team, it wouldn't stop me from watching the Pakistan games.

    I'll use basketball as an example. The NBA is predominantly black players playing in it and I think everyone would agree with me, but that doesn't stop my basketball loving, desi friends to stop watching and playing basketball. I also see white kids playing basketball!

    I'm sure most people who aren't even Pakistani wanted to be like Wasim Akram, even if they were white. If players like Steyn won't motivate them then why would Rabada?

    I don't know too much about poverty in SA, but the smart thing to do would be to maybe make some grounds where kids can play and introduce cricket in all schools.


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    All this argument about race is BS. If there were 5 hindus in the Pakistan team, it wouldn't stop me from watching the Pakistan games.

    I'll use basketball as an example. The NBA is predominantly black players playing in it and I think everyone would agree with me, but that doesn't stop my basketball loving, desi friends to stop watching and playing basketball. I also see white kids playing basketball!

    I'm sure most people who aren't even Pakistani wanted to be like Wasim Akram, even if they were white. If players like Steyn won't motivate them then why would Rabada?

    I don't know too much about poverty in SA, but the smart thing to do would be to maybe make some grounds where kids can play and introduce cricket in all schools.
    Because sadly, the motivation for this is not based in cricket, but in politics.

    They truly don't care how good or bad the team is, but how many blacks are in it, because this is a political agenda.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoUgandaCranes View Post
    Answering both of your queries here.

    First: Are you saying that democratic governments always make the difficult choice even if public opinion is different from say any scientifically proven facts?

    Second: A black South African should realize that the way forward is by being inclusive and not creating another divide. If they don't see that, they are now doing the same mistake that their oppressors did before. Yes, the scale of the mistake is different but the underlying principle is the same.

    Third: Isn't segregation a type of discrimination? When you are segregating people, are you not also discriminating?

    Fourth: You conveniently miss my main point and continue to languish in this debate - I personally believe that the principle that led to apartheid and the principle to this day that leads in quota system is the same. It maintains a difference between people based on their color or other factors that they have no control with. It may seem naive but an inclusive society shouldn't carry out on past baggage. As I have stated, for a better utopian society, it is better to invest in infrastructure and create equal opportunities. Merit should be a prominent factor and all people should have access to equal facilities and services. No person should have a higher right and access to something because they were born a certain way.

    I will study some more and I will try to get a broader perspective of apartheid as you stated as well.
    Trying to answer your questions. First, I am not sure what is the question exactly...

    I raised the point of democratic elections because one study cited on this thread claimed that quota based selection was also bad for black South Africans; is the science you were referring to?

    It seems to me that if one were really interested in what was 'good' or 'bad' for them then their own opinion actually matters.

    Second: I don't see your argument here. The South African cricket team is inclusive of white South Africans. They are not divided from their black colleagues.

    They are a majority in the team. They share the same facilities. They can go out and socialize together without. South Africans of all colors take pride in their achievements. None of this was possible under Apartheid.

    Third: As the above would suggest, segregation and discrimination are not the same thing. Segregation entails discrimination, but discrimination does not necessarily descend to the level of segregation.

    Segregation in South Africa meant that blacks could not vote, they could only live in certain places, required to hold special pass papers, they could not socialize with whites in certain ways, they were subject to certain horrific forms of violence, being gunned down by police etc etc etc.

    And they did not play on the national cricket team. Post Apartheid, whites do play on the national cricket team.

    One problem with the argument that we should all forget about past divisions is that they often endure in society in ways not reducible to infrastructure and facilities, though these are also very real problem. Racism does not disappear because you wish it to.

    To be black in South African is still to confront certain expectations on the part of white economic elites which may be termed discriminatory. Just as women in most parts of the world confront certain expectations when they apply for jobs in male dominated professions.

    Incidentally. I noticed that you fly the Swedish flag in your profile? Do you know that quotas for female participation in the national legislature are in force in Sweden, in order to maintain a rough 50-50 parity between men and women? The quotas are voluntarily implemented by the political parties, but quotas they are.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    bump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    Trying to answer your questions. First, I am not sure what is the question exactly...

    I raised the point of democratic elections because one study cited on this thread claimed that quota based selection was also bad for black South Africans; is the science you were referring to?

    It seems to me that if one were really interested in what was 'good' or 'bad' for them then their own opinion actually matters.

    Second: I don't see your argument here. The South African cricket team is inclusive of white South Africans. They are not divided from their black colleagues.

    They are a majority in the team. They share the same facilities. They can go out and socialize together without. South Africans of all colors take pride in their achievements. None of this was possible under Apartheid.

    Third: As the above would suggest, segregation and discrimination are not the same thing. Segregation entails discrimination, but discrimination does not necessarily descend to the level of segregation.

    Segregation in South Africa meant that blacks could not vote, they could only live in certain places, required to hold special pass papers, they could not socialize with whites in certain ways, they were subject to certain horrific forms of violence, being gunned down by police etc etc etc.

    And they did not play on the national cricket team. Post Apartheid, whites do play on the national cricket team.

    One problem with the argument that we should all forget about past divisions is that they often endure in society in ways not reducible to infrastructure and facilities, though these are also very real problem. Racism does not disappear because you wish it to.

    To be black in South African is still to confront certain expectations on the part of white economic elites which may be termed discriminatory. Just as women in most parts of the world confront certain expectations when they apply for jobs in male dominated professions.

    Incidentally. I noticed that you fly the Swedish flag in your profile? Do you know that quotas for female participation in the national legislature are in force in Sweden, in order to maintain a rough 50-50 parity between men and women? The quotas are voluntarily implemented by the political parties, but quotas they are.
    "Racism doesn't disappear because you wish it to" - Okay, does it disappear with quota systems?

    About the Swedish flag jibe - Did you know that in Sweden, they are trying gender neutral word to address people (both men and women)? Did you also know that in Sweden, children are taught in such a manner where all human beings are treated equally without the focus on their gender, religion or color?

    Please stop over-analyzing my posts. I make a simple point (even if it is ideological) and that is - Racism will never disappear if we keep giving benefits to people based on their skin color.

    Let us agree to disagree and close this futile discussion.


    sawaal ye ni k ap ko kyun nikaala, sawaal ye k ap aaye kaisay.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    bump.
    Solid one that.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I politely disagree.

    Watching Bavuma drown will not make black boys want to play cricket.
    Even before today's ton, Bavuma had a decent FC record and had done relatively well in India. What made you think he would "drown" in international cricket?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    All this argument about race is BS. If there were 5 hindus in the Pakistan team, it wouldn't stop me from watching the Pakistan games.

    I'll use basketball as an example. The NBA is predominantly black players playing in it and I think everyone would agree with me, but that doesn't stop my basketball loving, desi friends to stop watching and playing basketball. I also see white kids playing basketball!

    I'm sure most people who aren't even Pakistani wanted to be like Wasim Akram, even if they were white. If players like Steyn won't motivate them then why would Rabada?

    I don't know too much about poverty in SA, but the smart thing to do would be to maybe make some grounds where kids can play and introduce cricket in all schools.
    Cricket is an elite sport, majority of the blacks are still poor, wealthy whites still have access to good schools with good fundings and good cricketing programs. It will take time before the blacks produce good batsmen regularly as more of them climb through economic ladder. Systemic racism ended in US in 60s even in mid 90s the blacks dominated poorest region in US. It will take time, until that SA can only produce bowlers. Bowlers can be groomed over 2-3 years unlike batsmen.

  80. #80
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    Don't underestimate the importance of that Bavuma century. An emotional and historic moment - the first ever Test hundred by a black South African cricketer.

    South Africans on social media are going crazy and was great to see the white South Africans celebrating like crazy at Newlands too. Fitting it was Rabada there at the other end, with Makhaya Ntini and Bavuma's family in the stands too. These moments where cricket transcends the boundaries of sport and have a much deeper meaning are truly special.

    Transformation has undoubtedly been extremely difficult, of course this doesn't resolve the many social problems SA have nor heal the scars of the past. But that might just be a turning point even if Bavuma doesn't go onto have a distinguished career as it guarantees a few more young black kids in SA will be inspired to pick up a bat and ball. Well done Temba.

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