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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    All this argument about race is **. If there were 5 hindus in the Pakistan team, it wouldn't stop me from watching the Pakistan games.

    I'll use basketball as an example. The NBA is predominantly black players playing in it and I think everyone would agree with me, but that doesn't stop my basketball loving, desi friends to stop watching and playing basketball. I also see white kids playing basketball!

    I'm sure most people who aren't even Pakistani wanted to be like Wasim Akram, even if they were white. If players like Steyn won't motivate them then why would Rabada?

    I don't know too much about poverty in SA, but the smart thing to do would be to maybe make some grounds where kids can play and introduce cricket in all schools.
    You never lived under Apartheid, or with its legacy.

    South African blacks can like Steyn plenty.

    But why is it surprising that they might be particularly inspired by a black player?

    The reception the greeted Bavuma's ton today spoke volumes.

  2. #82
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    Junaids has this wrong. Initially Qoutas as you call them didn't exist. They exist because white people deliberately payed lip service to transformation. They wanted the status Quo to remain hence politicians got involved. All white only sporting qoutes were told to come up with their own initiatives how they were going to transform. They failed to achieve their own targets.

    Most of you keep talking about merit. Well let me blunt here. If merit was applied, not a single black player would play for the Our rugby or cricket team. Why? Because most blacks are worse off from coloreds and indians. The apartheid system had layers of exclusion. The Indian and coloureds even though they were treated badly, they still had more advantages than us. A divide and rule tactic from the nats.

    Personally I don't like qoutas, but quotas are a direct result of what white led cricket administrators did or didn't do to transform sport. Incidentally the claim from some posters here that blacks don't watch or play cricket is a lie. In the eastern cape and western cape, rugby and cricket are number 1 sports played by black Africans. It's their number 1 sports. They've been playing for ages. Look at theit facilities vs White facilities. White's have far better facilities. See the inequality?

    Cricket in South Africa is an elitist aport and most people see nothing wrong with this. Trying to compare it with Basketball doesn't really make sense. One can make it in basketball without having been to an elite schools.In South Africa 90% of Rugby and Cricket players who've played at the highest level come from expensive white owned schools.

    Unfortunately because of inequality, blacks will always be outside looking in. Makhaya Ntini, Monde Zondeki, Tsotsobe and most of these guys had to get scholarships to these white schools to make it. See where the problem lies? A minority giving handouts to the majority. Do you think any nation would agree to this? Why should Africans agree to this? Can merit really apply here?

    This question of merit deliberately seeks to forget the unfair advantages that whites continue to enjoy. Imagine a sprinter has been doping all his life and then he gets caught out. Then he says "ok ok you caught me, let's now race fairly" Is the next race going to be fair? No, because steroids are still in his blood hence he will still have an unfair advantage.

    The only real way to transform cricket is to have massive investment in grass roots level. By ensuring that all kids have facilities and equal opportunity to access sports. Unfortunately 25 years later, majority of blacks hold political power and the whites economic power.

    So folks as much as I don't like qoutas I'm not suprised they exist. Apartheid might have fallen in terms of legislation in 94 but the structures of oppression remains. Sport is caught up in all this. There's no hiding from it.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Don't underestimate the importance of that Bavuma century. An emotional and historic moment - the first ever Test hundred by a black South African cricketer.

    South Africans on social media are going crazy and was great to see the white South Africans celebrating like crazy at Newlands too. Fitting it was Rabada there at the other end, with Makhaya Ntini and Bavuma's family in the stands too. These moments where cricket transcends the boundaries of sport and have a much deeper meaning are truly special.

    Transformation has undoubtedly been extremely difficult, of course this doesn't resolve the many social problems SA have nor heal the scars of the past. But that might just be a turning point even if Bavuma doesn't go onto have a distinguished career as it guarantees a few more young black kids in SA will be inspired to pick up a bat and ball. Well done Temba.
    Totally agree, it certainly transcends the boundaries of sport; it was not just a great moment for SA fans but an incredible moment for Cricket fans in general. I hope Bavuma goes on to have a successful international career; well done to him, being relatively new to the scene and all this discussion of the quota system in recent times he produced the goods under immense pressure, well done to him and a big thank you.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  4. #84
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    Bamuva has looked good so far.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    You never lived under Apartheid, or with its legacy.

    South African blacks can like Steyn plenty.

    But why is it surprising that they might be particularly inspired by a black player?

    The reception the greeted Bavuma's ton today spoke volumes.
    Having read your posts, you seem to be the only one who understand what informs some of th3 selection decisions. When i got home from.work and seeing Bavuma get his ton brought emotions because I sort of had an idea of the racial obstacles he had to endure to get there. With due respect a oerson in Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and England can never ever understand the legacy of living under apartheid. We as Blacks understand it because it's our reality. It's this reality that informs certain decisions.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    Cricket is an elite sport, majority of the blacks are still poor, wealthy whites still have access to good schools with good fundings and good cricketing programs. It will take time before the blacks produce good batsmen regularly as more of them climb through economic ladder. Systemic racism ended in US in 60s even in mid 90s the blacks dominated poorest region in US. It will take time, until that SA can only produce bowlers. Bowlers can be groomed over 2-3 years unlike batsmen.
    That's what I mean. If youu want to inspire black kids have a team that wins instead of forcing black players in, because personally if my team consistently lost then I wouldn't be too inspired even if they were all Muslim.

    They need to help poorer areas by making grounds and starting off in local schools


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Having read your posts, you seem to be the only one who understand what informs some of th3 selection decisions. When i got home from.work and seeing Bavuma get his ton brought emotions because I sort of had an idea of the racial obstacles he had to endure to get there. With due respect a oerson in Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and England can never ever understand the legacy of living under apartheid. We as Blacks understand it because it's our reality. It's this reality that informs certain decisions.
    If I were to walk by few cricket grounds in SA, with matches being played by elite city teams, will I be seeing top order batsmen dominated by White, Coloured or Blacks ?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    That's what I mean. If youu want to inspire black kids have a team that wins instead of forcing black players in, because personally if my team consistently lost then I wouldn't be too inspired even if they were all Muslim.

    They need to help poorer areas by making grounds and starting off in local schools
    Think SA is poor for that, even if you look at countries like India. The batsmen are generally from wealthier background while bowlers are from poor/rural background. Money = Good Batsmen.

  9. #89
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    It doesn't matter anymore because both Bavuma and Rabada have proved that they are good enough to be in the team on merit. Amla may still need to let go of the captaincy but he's already made history. Another mountain out of a molehill.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It doesn't matter anymore because both Bavuma and Rabada have proved that they are good enough to be in the team on merit. Amla may still need to let go of the captaincy but he's already made history. Another mountain out of a molehill.
    How so?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    How so?
    Highest ODI average after n innings or with more than n runs. One of those two.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shutdown Corner View Post
    Highest ODI average after n innings or with more than n runs. One of those two.
    There is the SL series too.

    But from what the OP said, it seemed like he was trying to credit Amla for Bavuma's success.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    There is the SL series too.

    But from what the OP said, it seemed like he was trying to credit Amla for Bavuma's success.
    What is racial make up of all blacks? Have seen few indigenous and black players in the clips

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    What is racial make up of all blacks? Have seen few indigenous and black players in the clips
    There is no quota.

    If you're good enough, you're in the team.

    Don't really pay attention to whether they're black or white.
    Last edited by Aman; 6th January 2016 at 01:42.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    There is no quota, if you're good enough you're in the team.
    I know that.. Was just wondering about diversity of the team

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    I know that.. Was just wondering about diversity of the team
    I'd say there's generally more players with Island roots (Samoa, Tonga and Fiji) than those with European or Maori roots.

    If I had to put a number on it, I'd say 12:8:2.
    Last edited by Aman; 6th January 2016 at 01:48.

  17. #97
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    13:8:2*

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    I'd say there's generally more players with Island roots (Samoa, Tonga and Fiji) than those with European roots.

    If I had to put a number on it, I'd say 3:2.
    I see.. Would love to see more participation in cricket from those group of people

  19. #99
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    Taylor has mixed heritage..

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Taylor has mixed heritage..
    Samoan not Maori.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Taylor has mixed heritage..
    Jesse Ryder has Maori blood.


    I have returned.

  22. #102
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    The less talented Bavuma, who got a selection only because of his race, becomes the first black south african to hit a test century.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  23. #103
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    Less talented Bavuma? At this level talent means nothing. It's all about delivery.

  24. #104
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    Going well so far, well justified selection.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    The less talented Bavuma, who got a selection only because of his race, .
    and you know this how?

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Rose View Post
    and you know this how?
    From other posters, including the OP.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    From other posters, including the OP.
    Probably not true then.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Bamuva has looked good so far.
    I thought the opposite actually. On better wickets, his technique might be exposed.

    Still wish him well. It's not easy to play under so much pressure.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    There is the SL series too.

    But from what the OP said, it seemed like he was trying to credit Amla for Bavuma's success.
    The first permanent captain of colour for South Africa.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Cat View Post
    Jesse Ryder has Maori blood.
    I read somewhere that even Boult has Maori blood

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It doesn't matter anymore because both Bavuma and Rabada have proved that they are good enough to be in the team on merit. Amla may still need to let go of the captaincy but he's already made history. Another mountain out of a molehill.
    This is a bit like saying colonialism wasn't a big deal because it is over now. Perhaps but someone had to fight to make it so.

    Did you consider that if it were not for the quota system Bavuma may not have gotten a chance?

    And in the grander scheme of things isn't this entire forum about making mountains out of molehills?

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    This is a bit like saying colonialism wasn't a big deal because it is over now. Perhaps but someone had to fight to make it so.

    Did you consider that if it were not for the quota system Bavuma may not have gotten a chance?

    And in the grander scheme of things isn't this entire forum about making mountains out of molehills?
    You do realize my post was in response to @Junaids, right? He's the one exaggerating things by claiming that quotas are killing South African cricket and he is the one that needs to move on after both Bavuma and Rabada have proven themselves to be good enough players to make the quotas redundant.

    Do explain what you mean by the last sentence of your post.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Having read your posts, you seem to be the only one who understand what informs some of th3 selection decisions. When i got home from.work and seeing Bavuma get his ton brought emotions because I sort of had an idea of the racial obstacles he had to endure to get there. With due respect a oerson in Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and England can never ever understand the legacy of living under apartheid. We as Blacks understand it because it's our reality. It's this reality that informs certain decisions.
    Hi DarkMagician and thank you. I was moved to read your long post. It's sad that it should be so difficult for others to understand. You know much better than me that it is also sadly predictable but also I would add, ironic.

    This forum never ceases to preoccupy itself with the myriad ways in which the story of Pakistani cricket is not a story of meritocracy, fairness and justice. The most common complaint if one can paraphrase is that cricket is not only about cricket, that politics interfere. But as the forum own lively debates attest, where would be the interest without the politics?

    Historically cricket has been fascinated many including stadium audiences precisely because it about something more than itself. It has been about colonialism and decolonization for instance. I encourage anyone who cannot read Bavuma feat into the story not only of South Africa
    but also cricket itself, to look up CLR James' classic 'Beyond a Boundary.'

    More than other sports, of which the same if often said, I do think that cricket also stages the drama of life. Because not as the eternal happy-ending of a Hollywood romance. Everyone knows umpires get their calls wrong, that rain and weather and poorly prepared pitches skew results one way or another. Its hard to think of another sport in which there is so much room for the brute violence of the arbitrary.

    Like man sports, it also has less space for moralizing than is commonly imagined. People may agree Asad Shafiq has turned out to be a good Test player, but no one can say with certainty that he deserves his place in the team; that it is 'just' or fair. Others, say a Fawad Alam, could have been even better had they been given as many chances. Even hindsight isn't as useful as we think.

    Similarly, no adult should be able to believe that everyone gets an equal chance, that life is fundamentally fair. Yet regardless of what they know, most people today can only live their lives, ie act, as if this fantasy was reality. This double consciousness is ideology in a nutshell. In a world ruled by this ideology is clearly impossible to be in favor of quotas, as this thread
    has shown.

    Contrariwise, there is nothing more necessary than saying that quotas should not be used and that the best should be selected etc. It sounds principled and it is. From this position one can look down with paternal concern ('quotas are not really good for you either') And ask other to have another history. To act as if the past is not also a part of our present, in so far as it is anything at all.

    Perhaps most tellingly, the person of principle can ask those who have suffered violence to have different feelings, ('don't you also feel like i do about Dale Steyn?') As if they were living in the wrong body. And of course theirs are wrong bodies, yet again but now in a new way. But in the end, goes the irony, it is they who are accused of perpetuating the violence of history,
    out of step with things, rattling about like a loose cog in an otherwise well oiled fantasy.

    And whereas others can talk of principle, of the importance to doing things as if there is no racism, even though they know there is racism, the rattling cog has to talk about 'reality,' the brute arbitrariness of life and the impossibility of a game without politics.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    You do realize my post was in response to @Junaids, right? He's the one exaggerating things by claiming that quotas are killing South African cricket and he is the one that needs to move on after both Bavuma and Rabada have proven themselves to be good enough players to make the quotas redundant.

    Do explain what you mean by the last sentence of your post.
    Sorry I didn't realize. But as per my embarrassingly long post I do maintain that it was actually worth talking about, even if I disagreed with Junaids position.

    By the last sentence I meant that the kind of stuff we debate most of the time, e.g, Does Amir bowl at 133 or 137 km/h? could appear incommensurate with our emotional exertions, e.g (You are an idiot, No you are,' etc)

    I don't think the Bavuma story illustrates that cricket magically transcend politics, stands above it, all that ethereal feel good fluff. I think cricket matters precisely in so far as it caught up deep inside politics, in a kind of sticky messy way.

  35. #115
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    Rabada, who took 6 wickets, should be thankful to the system of racial quota, because of which he got to play.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Rabada, who took 6 wickets, should be thankful to the system of racial quota, because of which he got to play.
    Rabada would be in racial quota or no. He is picked on merit and potential, not for the race quota.

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Rabada, who took 6 wickets, should be thankful to the system of racial quota, because of which he got to play.
    This is the worst part of quota. When a deserving candidate from backward category makes it, people still shout about quota even though he didn't need it at all.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Rabada, who took 6 wickets, should be thankful to the system of racial quota, because of which he got to play.
    I highly doubt they would pick a 20 year old for the quota player. He is clearly there on merit. One CAN argue that Bavuma is a quota player, I wouldn't though.

  39. #119
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    The selections should be purely on merit but I don't really k ow what's the situation regarding this issue in south Africa. They are following govt policy I think.


    It is either a heartache or a headache ..Argh relationships.

  40. #120
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    Bavuma making 78 not out. These quota players are having their days.

  41. #121
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    Dane Piedt should be replaced by Harmer and Duminy by Rilee Russow perhaps?


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    Rabada would be in racial quota or no. He is picked on merit and potential, not for the race quota.
    Exactly!

    The problems have come elsewhere.

    Stephen Cook was overlooked from 2008 (aged 25) to 2016 because for the first 7 of those 8 years the selectors could tick a "quota box" by selecting Alviro Petersen instead. Petersen was "not quite good enough" whereas Cook would have been a Test quality batsman for a decade. But he was the wrong colour - white.

    A similar (but reversed) process has been occuring with JP Duminy for the last 18 months. It is totally bleeding obvious that Stiaan Van Zyl has a better claim to bat at 5 or 6 than Duminy, but because it looked better to include Duminy he was selected down there, and indeed still is. Van Zyl has had to bat out of position as an opener instead, because since the retirement of Petersen there is no non-white candidate to open.

    And now that the selectors have lost Philander and Petersen as non-white options, they only have Amla and Rabada left as non-white players sure of their place. So Duminy and Bavuma get picked in Stiaan Van Zyl's specialist position in the lower middle-order because they double the number of quota players.

    Duminy and Bavuma are basically undroppable currently until Philander is fit again. Because the selectors would get fired if they picked 9 white players.

  43. #123
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    Nick Hoult writing in todays Telegraph. Thought the comments by Barry Richards were interesting.



    Cricket is a numbers game. Runs, wickets, averages and strike rates are the currency of the sport. But in South Africa the numbers mean something very different altogether and the team that plays against England at Lord’s in the first Test this week has had to meet a numerical target way beyond the bat and ball.

    Two years ago Cricket South Africa presented a 37 page document to the national government outlining how it would implement transformation policies aimed at giving opportunities to “previously disadvantaged” people. The specific focus was on “on increasing black African players", whose progress had stagnated since readmission two decades earlier.

    It has resulted in a quotas policy at all levels of cricket that is being felt right to the top of the national team. At provincial level there now have to seven non-white players of which three must be black African in every team.

    At first-class level the number is six non-whites of which two have to be black African. It is non-negotiable.

    For the Proteas, as the national side are known, the quota number is the same as at first-class level but it is more flexible and an average is taken across the year, rather than implemented in every match.

    But that leads to suspicions that some black players are picked in less important matches to help meet the annual target. Selection is much simpler when the focus is on merit only. "It's a difficult one. South Africa has come from a history that we know about,” said Barry Richards, one of South Africa’s greatest players but one whose career was played behind the curtain of a sporting ban.

    “When I came to play county cricket and I first met Garry Sobers, people like that, picking a team was on merit, I've always been of that opinion.

    "Whether you can do that in the South African context, I think we're now we're far enough along the line to say we can pick it (the South Africa nation team) on merit. But where it's causing a problem is a little further down the line.

    "You've got this transformation policy where an Indian player like Hashim (Amla) becomes different from a black player like (Kagiso) Rabada in terms of team selection.

    "It's a machination of politics and sport, it's never been a great mix. The transformation policy, I can see what they are trying to achieve, but whether they achieve the end goal of a merit selection at level remains to be seen.”

    Part of the problem is communication. The better coaches are honest and tell a black player he may well have only been picked for his colour but the message is ‘take your chance’.

    Players such as Temba Bavuma, who last year against England became the first black player to score a Test century for South Africa, and Andile Phehlukwayo, have enjoyed opportunities earlier than merited but justified them with performance. Their successes have come against a backdrop of scepticism over their place in the side from team-mates, media and supporters.

    “I don't think they make it clear enough to the fans and then you have people on social media having a go at each other from day one over it,” said Richards. The issue is over a period of a time. There might be less (players of colour) in a Test match and more in a one-day international, to average out over percentage. At the lower level it's just coming in.”

    There are around 50 private schools in South Africa churning out possibly one player each per year who would have a chance of making a career in first-class cricket.

    There are six franchise teams playing first-class cricket. With six non-whites per team that leaves 30 spots for white players. Add in white players in their late 20s and 30s who are experienced cricketers the team relies on for consistent runs who are automatic picks, and that leaves little opportunity for young white players. Many more will drift to England to serve the qualification period, while older players take the Kolpak route.

    “Your back-up players, are very important,” said Richards. “Your (Colin) Ingram, (Hylton) Ackerman, your Kyle Abbott and Rilee Rossouw (Both at Hampshire on Kolpak deals). If those guys are saying we don't like it because we might not be part of the set-up, that's something else you've got to factor into how you implement transformation. It's a problem and I'm not sure they quite know what the solution is just yet."

    There is no Ab De Villiers at Lord’s this week. He appears to be a man who has fallen out of love with the game he is so brilliant at playing. Some trace his frustration back to the World Cup semi-final in New Zealand two years ago when he wanted to pick Abbott but had to choose Philander ( a player of colour) instead.

    His team lost and De Villiers at no point has blamed selection but he does wonder in his autobiography if the “decision been made for purely cricketing reasons?" But De Villiers accepts the reality of captaining South Africa. “I was certainly not blind to the wider issues and I regard the process of transformation in South African cricket not as something imposed on the game but as something that was morally the right thing to do."
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2...-south-africa/

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    Bavuma is a decent batsmen

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    I disagree with the article cited above.

    I've been advised that AB De Villiers was told that for quota reasons he could only be selected in the Test team if he captained it and FAF du Plessis was dropped.

    Look at the team:

    2 white openers because there are no adequate non-white alternatives
    1 white middle-order batsman (FAF or AB as skipper)
    1 white keeper (de Kock, the best player).
    1 white fast bowler (Morkel or Steyn).

    That's the quota of 5. You can't get both FAF and AB into the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I disagree with the article cited above.

    I've been advised that AB De Villiers was told that for quota reasons he could only be selected in the Test team if he captained it and FAF du Plessis was dropped.

    Look at the team:

    2 white openers because there are no adequate non-white alternatives
    1 white middle-order batsman (FAF or AB as skipper)
    1 white keeper (de Kock, the best player).
    1 white fast bowler (Morkel or Steyn).

    That's the quota of 5. You can't get both FAF and AB into the team.
    wow, this is the recipe for the funeral of SA team honestly, dont see how SA would be any better than zimbabwe

    nothing against black south african players but except makhaya ntini, never saw any quality black SA players

    the white players are far superior,

    the selection should be on merit whether it is black or white South African

    either black SA need to become superior cricketers

    otherwise this is nothing but recipe for disaster or may i say, recipe for funeral

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    BTW, I apologise if I've been too strong in my posts.

    I don't mean to offend anyone, especially any Brummies.

    I work on the principle that we should be direct and not beat about the bush, but I don't mean to hurt anyone.

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    if you were only concerned with selection being on merit than you could have left it at that.

    white, black, brown, the best should get selected.

    but 'white players are superior.'?

    in an article about philander, the former no 1 test bowler in the world.

    rabada. philander. amla. tahir. don't look very white to me
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 3rd July 2017 at 03:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho Mann View Post
    wow, this is the recipe for the funeral of SA team honestly, dont see how SA would be any better than zimbabwe

    nothing against black south african players but except makhaya ntini, never saw any quality black SA players

    the white players are far superior,

    the selection should be on merit whether it is black or white South African

    either black SA need to become superior cricketers

    otherwise this is nothing but recipe for disaster or may i say, recipe for funeral
    If I were to be brutally honest, I don't think Nitini was a great bowler either. He was just filling the black player role. He amassed so many wickets because of the number of matches he played. He was a good, decent bowler and I'm not taking anything away from him but he's wasn't as great as a lot of people have made him out to be on this thread. For all we know, there was a much more talented and hard-working white bowler in the setup who never got a shot at international cricket because of him. Not as black and white as it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    if you were only concerned with selection being on merit than you could have left it at that.

    white, black, brown, the best should get selected.

    but 'white players are superior.'?

    in an article about philander, the former no 1 test bowler in the world.

    rabada. philander. amla. tahir. don't look very white to me
    I understand where you're coming from but I personally think you're just interpreting it falsely. I'm sure this was not the writers intention. The fact is, majority of white players are superior to the colored ones. I may sound like a racist but there's reason behind this which falls under the bracket of status, class, history and just money, really.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 3rd July 2017 at 03:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    I understand where you're coming from but I personally think you're just interpreting it falsely. I'm sure this was not the writers intention. The fact is, majority of white players are superior to the colored ones. I may sound like a racist but there's reason behind this which falls under the bracket of status, class, history and just money, really.
    yes you do sound like a racist.

    though not up to mcgrath standard, ntini was a battering ram for south africa. true enough though, if a black player will not get credit even when they perform to world standard, then yes, clearly, they will never be good enough.

    sa's best bastman is coloured, so is their best spinner, their best fast bowler is black. and their second best fast bowler. with steyn fading the only white star left is de kock. faf is going to come and go, a good player that's pretty much it. where are these superior whites?
    Last edited by New Yorker; 3rd July 2017 at 12:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    yes you do sound like a racist.

    though not up to mcgrath standard, ntini was a battering ram for south africa. true enough though, if a black player will not get credit even when they perform to world standard, then yes, clearly, they will never be good enough.

    sa's best bastman is coloured, so is their best spinner, their best fast bowler is black. and their second best fast bowler. with steyn fading the only white star left is de kock. faf is going to come and go, a good player that's pretty much it. where are these superior whites?
    i think you need to examine your head

    i had already stated about merit, with superior i meant, they are of superior standards, never meant as a racist remark, if you dont like word white or black, i can use european descendent they are more interested in cricket then native africans, ths they produce more and better cricketers thus they are in larger quantity, to shrink their quantity based on quota system is in my view very rascist

    there is a tradition everywhere, indians are better batsmen than paks, paks are better pace bowlers thn indians, native africans are generally not traditionally inclined towards cricket or rugby but football thus more african native footballers in SA team then european descendent, desi are more inclined, europeans at one time loved cricket, they are less inclined now and thus more and more non european african cricketers.

    ntini and all other black cricketers are on merit but quota system is purely racial and will destroy a great competitive team

    bad for cricket
    Last edited by Macho Mann; 3rd July 2017 at 12:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    If I were to be brutally honest, I don't think Nitini was a great bowler either. He was just filling the black player role. He amassed so many wickets because of the number of matches he played. He was a good, decent bowler and I'm not taking anything away from him but he's wasn't as great as a lot of people have made him out to be on this thread. For all we know, there was a much more talented and hard-working white bowler in the setup who never got a shot at international cricket because of him. Not as black and white as it seems.
    It is one thing if you could point to a bowler who could have done Ntini's job better than Ntini and who never got to play, because of Ntini. But there is a reason we never heard of this fellow. He didn't exist. Nor is it likely that he would exist. Very few countries produce that kind of abundance of bowling talent at any one time. Pakistan's golden age was Imran, Wasim and Waqar, and there was always space for all of them. There were better Saffie bowlers than Ntini when Ntini played and one of them were Shaun Pollock. But there weren't three bowlers better than Ntini. The "know," in "for all we know" is little more than prejudice, invulnerable to fact or decency.

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    @Macho Mann you are leaving out one important fact.

    After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

    To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

    Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    @Macho Mann you are leaving out one important fact.

    After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

    To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

    Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.
    i didnt ever say they are less talented, the west indians have showed how black cricketers can be the best at the game

    its not about not being talented, its about not being traditional, african natives prefer football over any other sports

    if native africans are poor at some sports, it doesnt mean that they are hired on basis of quota

    i have seen 90% african black players in SA national team, so should there be a white quota in their soccer team?

    removing best 'white' players just to accomodate second rate players just because they are black is not fair for the SA cricket

    if the system is indeed unfair, the black SA govt can try to change the system instead of jeopardizing their system through quotas

    its a suicide attempt nothing else.

  56. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho Mann View Post
    i think you need to examine your head

    i had already stated about merit, with superior i meant, they are of superior standards, never meant as a racist remark, if you dont like word white or black, i can use european descendent they are more interested in cricket then native africans, ths they produce more and better cricketers thus they are in larger quantity, to shrink their quantity based on quota system is in my view very rascist

    there is a tradition everywhere, indians are better batsmen than paks, paks are better pace bowlers thn indians, native africans are generally not traditionally inclined towards cricket or rugby but football thus more african native footballers in SA team then european descendent, desi are more inclined, europeans at one time loved cricket, they are less inclined now and thus more and more non european african cricketers.

    ntini and all other black cricketers are on merit but quota system is purely racial and will destroy a great competitive team

    bad for cricket

    you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

    racism is never merely about race. 'culture' or 'tradition' is the most classic form of racism that does
    not speak the name of race. muslims have a traditionally inclined to violence and extremism. blacks
    in the us are traditionally inclined to violence and poverty. bla bla.

    i took 'white players are superior' to mean the least offensive thing possible, namely, they are better
    cricketers. and this is also what you say you meant.

    but on what basis, to what purpose, could anyone say that? how in the first place does it make sense?

    do you mean every white player is better than every black or colored player? that's clearly not true, a
    fact which you continue to dodge. rabada is safricas best bowler.

    does it mean that on average, taking a sample of 100 players from each demographic, the white cohort
    will on average produce better players than colored and black cohorts? but even if this were true, what
    does it matter? the question is whether anyone from either cohort could nevertheless become the best
    bowler or bat in the country. and that is clearly true.

    'white players are best' is just a meaningless thing to say, unless you do actually believe it, in the racial/
    cultural sense. and because you believe it you feel that even the possibility that there may be one or two
    less white players on the team will doom cricket in south africa.

    whereas failing to make the sport appealing to the vast majority of its population is just fine.

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    Not selecting players on proper merit would lead to less than favourable results? What.A.Shock!

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker View Post
    you are just digging a deeper hole for yourself.

    racism is never merely about race. 'culture' or 'tradition' is the most classic form of racism that does
    not speak the name of race. muslims have a traditionally inclined to violence and extremism. blacks
    in the us are traditionally inclined to violence and poverty. bla bla.
    man you are hilarious

    nothing what you write here as a minute correlation with what i have written

    the correlation im making here is like swimmer is more skilled at swimming than a cricketer who is more skilled at bowling/batting, violence, poverty and the rest of mumbo jumbo has nothing to do with what i have said

    i dunno why are you bringing sociopolitical debates in this discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho Mann View Post
    i didnt ever say they are less talented, the west indians have showed how black cricketers can be the best at the game
    You said in your above posts that white South African cricketers were superior to black South Africans so clearly by inference you perceive them as less talented. But let's not get hung up over semantics.

    its not about not being talented, its about not being traditional, african natives prefer football over any other sports
    You're not getting what I'm saying. Let me ask you this.

    WHY do you think football is more popular amongst black South Africans ? Why do you think football is so popular in the poorest parts of the world ? There are no barriers to the sport like cricket whereby if you want to train to a high standard - you need access to quality coaches, facilities, pitches, equipment etc. In the SC where there is crippling poverty, you can still play in schools and there are thousands of clubs out there even for the poorest village boy to attend.

    But in South Africa, cricket is mainly played in the top government and private schools - this disproportionately affects the black population as most black kids cannot afford to attend as half of black South Africans live in poverty, many of whom live on less than US$1.25 a day. This is partly a legacy of Apartheid and this is the crux of the matter.

    If you don't attend those schools - HOW will the coaches and the sporting federations identify, groom and develop those black kids who COULD have a future in cricket ?

    The answers are not easy. ANC are massively corrupt and have failed to ensure economic transformation for the black community. Quotas are not an ideal solution, but cricket cannot survive solely on talent from a fraction of the white community who are only 9% of the population.

    THAT would be the real suicide attempt if no efforts were made to be inclusive of 80% of the population and why the "why can't they just pick on merit" argument is simplistic and unreflective of the ground realities.

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    Difficult times lie ahead for South Africa. An aging team with race based selection and quota rule will ensure South Africa go through a transition period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Not selecting players on proper merit would lead to less than favourable results? What.A.Shock!
    The true shock is the belief that the previous system of selection was more meritocratic and therefore logically that we are going to be worse off with quotas than under apartheid, - a system in which only 9% of the population could play international cricket. now, if a whopping 40 million people in a country were barred from playing cricket, would that lead to less favorable results? one would think, unless one believes only white people could play cricket well

    the apartheid rule is not in place in anymore, but the discriminatory system that produced it remains,
    and affords disproportionally less opportunities to black players. the problem with the anc is not merely that it is corrupt, many counties have corrupt governments but still produce economic growth. and south africa has grown. the problem is the anc is living up to their bargain with the apartheid regime, which was to institute formal democracy but ring fence white wealth and privilege. no redistribution of land or resources, the poor would remain the poor.

    Now, in any country, players from poorer backgrounds, those living far away from cricketing grounds, those who do have to work to support their families, etc, would all be disadvantaged. One would imagine people who care about meritocracy and fairness and 'what's good for cricket' would be up in arms about the outrageous exclusion of millions of poor pakistanis and indians and sri lankans and australians and english. and there is certainly concern with this problem. but funnily enough we don't get quite the same righteousness quotient going when talking about such problems. As opposed to the problem of race. What to say?

    Bad for cricket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macho Mann View Post
    man you are hilarious

    nothing what you write here as a minute correlation with what i have written

    the correlation im making here is like swimmer is more skilled at swimming than a cricketer who is more skilled at bowling/batting, violence, poverty and the rest of mumbo jumbo has nothing to do with what i have said

    i dunno why are you bringing sociopolitical debates in this discussion
    huh? methinks you are pretty much through the earth's crust by now. i'm intrigued. to infinity and beyond !

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    India too has a hidden quota system based on regions(North, South, East and West). Since there is no major difference in quality between each regions, we don't see the impact of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    @Macho Mann you are leaving out one important fact.

    After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

    To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

    Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.
    Read Mickey Arthur's book.

    Cricket South Africa did submit a target, but the government insisted on a fixed quota.

    And it is ruining the development of black cricketers.

    Underprivileged blacks who are not particularly good take up most of the domestic slots, and face hardly any whites. But it is the privileged whites whom they need to be playing to develop their skills. Those whites got those skills in secondary school, but the black kids had no such luck.

    At the end of the day, it's no coincidence that the only two black men in the team are the son of Dr Rabada and Bavuma (who got a scholarship to a good school).

    Meanwhile the likes of Pietersen, Wagner and Jennings just emigrate and play for other countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    If I were to be brutally honest, I don't think Nitini was a great bowler either. He was just filling the black player role. He amassed so many wickets because of the number of matches he played. He was a good, decent bowler and I'm not taking anything away from him but he's wasn't as great as a lot of people have made him out to be on this thread. For all we know, there was a much more talented and hard-working white bowler in the setup who never got a shot at international cricket because of him. Not as black and white as it seems.
    I'm sorry but I can't accept that. He averaged 28.9 to get 390 test scalps. He was an even better ODI bowler with an average below 25. He led the attack for a good 3 years when Pollock was in decline and Steyn was starting to find consistency. I think he was a bit more than merely "decent".

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    It absolutely breaks my hear to see the way South African cricket is being given a slow death because of this racist quota system. I have no problem with players of color playing, in fact, I really like Bavum, Kagiso and I want Lungi Ngidi to become a regular feature but I don't want any prerequisites for the amount of players of color that need to play. Owing to this quota system, the likes Stephen Cook, AB and a dozen other world class talents rot away in domestic cricket or county.

    It was evident that this was a turning wicket and had South Africa still had the services of their spinner Simon Harmer, who is in the form of his life of dead, batting wickets - SA would certainly have had a better chance. Or even if they had Abbott or a reliable batsman in Rossouw. I can name a dozen other guys. The fact is, this might be the beginning of the end for a great South African team. Seems like the poor lot are cursed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    It absolutely breaks my hear to see the way South African cricket is being given a slow death because of this racist quota system. I have no problem with players of color playing, in fact, I really like Bavum, Kagiso and I want Lungi Ngidi to become a regular feature but I don't want any prerequisites for the amount of players of color that need to play. Owing to this quota system, the likes Stephen Cook, AB and a dozen other world class talents rot away in domestic cricket or county.

    It was evident that this was a turning wicket and had South Africa still had the services of their spinner Simon Harmer, who is in the form of his life of dead, batting wickets - SA would certainly have had a better chance. Or even if they had Abbott or a reliable batsman in Rossouw. I can name a dozen other guys. The fact is, this might be the beginning of the end for a great South African team. Seems like the poor lot are cursed.
    Who had Abbott play ahead of? Rabada? lLso going by FC stats Maharaj deserves his selection. The only undeserving selection is Duminy, rest of the players seem to be there on merit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    @Macho Mann you are leaving out one important fact.

    After the dismantling of Apartheid, the white dominated sporting federations were asked to set targets for transformation and they failed hence government intervention.

    To suggest black South Africans are not interested in cricket or lack the talent is nonsense. The reason why fewer black South Africans take up cricket is due to socio-economic inequality and lack of access to facilities not because they have some inherent dislike for the sport or are less talented. More than HALF of black children grow up in poverty and the majority of government schools do not play cricket. If you don't give people the opportunity then how will you ever know ?

    Makhaya Ntini and Monde Zondeki needed scholarships to white schools in order to be identified and make it through the system. I don't personally like quotas but I understand the need for CSA to expand the demographic playing cricket which cannot survive with only a small percentage of the population participating.
    What you've said here is the truth but the racist in my country will continue to deny the reality faced by ny people. Unfortunately it seems there's a fair number of people who support this behavior on this forum. A lot of the forumites have a lot to say because they dream of the best man getting to play. In South Africa that best man will always be white and not because of talent but because of resources.

    I generally try and avoid this topic because it makes it difficult to explain to people who have views that are not based on reality. To give you an example, not all people of colour where discriminated the same. Coloureds and Indians were treated a lot better relative to my indigenous people hence they were the first one's to play at test level.

    Qoutas are not nice but qoutas exist to redress an evil system created by people to oppress others.

  69. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    It absolutely breaks my hear to see the way South African cricket is being given a slow death because of this racist quota system. I have no problem with players of color playing, in fact, I really like Bavum, Kagiso and I want Lungi Ngidi to become a regular feature but I don't want any prerequisites for the amount of players of color that need to play. Owing to this quota system, the likes Stephen Cook, AB and a dozen other world class talents rot away in domestic cricket or county.

    It was evident that this was a turning wicket and had South Africa still had the services of their spinner Simon Harmer, who is in the form of his life of dead, batting wickets - SA would certainly have had a better chance. Or even if they had Abbott or a reliable batsman in Rossouw. I can name a dozen other guys. The fact is, this might be the beginning of the end for a great South African team. Seems like the poor lot are cursed.
    Harmer is a one trick pony that's going through a random purple patch, which is evident trough his mediocre performances prior to this blip in form.

    Maharaj has been a consistent performer at the FC level and has proved his worth in Australia and New Zealand- conditions which offer zero support for a spinner.

    Otherwise agree with the premise of the the post. Players like Phelekwayo, Duminy etc. have no place at the international level.
    Last edited by Ellipsism; 10th July 2017 at 09:19.

  70. #150
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    Their white players aren't any impressive either. Need to give this quota system a break from being bashed.

  71. #151
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  72. #152
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    South African players and ex-players are talking a little too openly on Twitter...


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  73. #153
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    sad to say this but south african cricket is becoming an embarrassment

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialisttailender View Post
    Their white players aren't any impressive either. Need to give this quota system a break from being bashed.
    No offence, but you are completely misunderstanding the situation.

    There is a maximum white quota cap of an average of 5 white players in the starting eleven.

    That on merit would mean:

    1. FAF du Plessis as skipper
    2. AB De Villiers as an ATG
    3. Dale Steyn as an ATG
    4. Quinton de Kock as a potential future ATG
    5. Dean Elgar as the best opener.

    All other white cricketers know that they can only get into the side as an injury replacement - like Morne Morkel now.

    This has led to an exodus of the ten or so next best white players - people like:

    Neil Wagner
    Kyle Abbott
    Dane Vilas
    Simon Harmer
    Ryan McLaren
    Stephen Cook
    Rilee Rossouw
    Stiaan Van Zyl

    This means that the white players now struggling in the team - Duanne Olivier, Heino Kuhn, Theunis de Bruyn - are not the 6th to 9th best white players but rather the 16th to 19th best.

    An entire generation of players is basically locked out for being white.

    Meanwhile Amla, Duminy and Bavuma deliver diminishing returns, and Philander is never fit, but because of their race they are each very hard to drop.

  75. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    .

    Meanwhile Amla, Duminy and Bavuma deliver diminishing returns, and Philander is never fit, but because of their race they are each very hard to drop.
    lol replace Amla with whom? Even with declining form he's their one of the best man.


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  76. #156
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    This is a bit like the caste based quota system that exists in India, where people from certain lower castes are entitled to qualify for certain competitive exams, or certain educational exams, or even certain number of Government jobs, with lesser marks secured, as those seats are reserved for them, while the people that fall in general category have to slog it out. The logic behind is something along the similar lines, like people from lower castes were discriminated against by general caste in the past, hence to compensate for that, the lower caste folks have been granted certain reservations, but how? By lowering the qualification criteria.

    I am of the opinion that the people in present cannot and should not be held accountable, or punished for something which happened in the past, even though it was done by their ancestors.

    Second, in order to compensate those who had suffered in the past, the proper way is to give them equal opportunities, economic help etc. so that they can better prepare to compete in all fields, so that their poor economic conditions dont hinder their growth.

    But what have we chosen to do? In order to reverse the pain that a certain class has suffered, we try and commit the same discrimination albeit in a reverse manner i.e if whites did not let Blacks into the game half a century back, we will not allow more than x no. of whites in the game as well.

    Rather give black kids proper education, good facilities, free coaching etc. even at the cost of taxpayer's money, so that they can be better prepared to compete for the spots, rather than lowering the bar itself.

    Today every one wants to become a part of the Proteas, mainly because they have raised the bar after their readmission into cricket. So rather than allowing players based on race, provide better facilities to those players & let the best players be selected, be it a team of 11 Blacks or even 11 whites.

    Just my 3 cents worth.


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  77. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by style_guru View Post
    This is a bit like the caste based quota system that exists in India, where people from certain lower castes are entitled to qualify for certain competitive exams, or certain educational exams, or even certain number of Government jobs, with lesser marks secured, as those seats are reserved for them, while the people that fall in general category have to slog it out. The logic behind is something along the similar lines, like people from lower castes were discriminated against by general caste in the past, hence to compensate for that, the lower caste folks have been granted certain reservations, but how? By lowering the qualification criteria.

    I am of the opinion that the people in present cannot and should not be held accountable, or punished for something which happened in the past, even though it was done by their ancestors.

    Second, in order to compensate those who had suffered in the past, the proper way is to give them equal opportunities, economic help etc. so that they can better prepare to compete in all fields, so that their poor economic conditions dont hinder their growth.

    But what have we chosen to do? In order to reverse the pain that a certain class has suffered, we try and commit the same discrimination albeit in a reverse manner i.e if whites did not let Blacks into the game half a century back, we will not allow more than x no. of whites in the game as well.

    Rather give black kids proper education, good facilities, free coaching etc. even at the cost of taxpayer's money, so that they can be better prepared to compete for the spots, rather than lowering the bar itself.

    Today every one wants to become a part of the Proteas, mainly because they have raised the bar after their readmission into cricket. So rather than allowing players based on race, provide better facilities to those players & let the best players be selected, be it a team of 11 Blacks or even 11 whites.

    Just my 3 cents worth.
    And now we are at the crux of the problem.

    The best team would contain 8 whites, not 5.

    If I had to pick a South African team to win the World Test Championship in England, with full liberty to pick any players who have emigrated, my team would be:

    1. Stephen Cook
    2. Dean Elgar
    3. Hashim Amla - now clearly a fading force who has less than a dozen Tests left in him.
    4. AB De Villiers
    5. FAF du Plessis (captain)
    6. Quinton De Kock
    7. Dane Vilas (wk)
    8. Vernon Philander
    9. Kyle Abbott (or Stephen Harmer if I pick a spinner)
    10. Dale Steyn
    11. Kagiso Rabada

    The reason why I might not have a spinner is because there are 6 or 7 better quick bowlers than the best spinner.

    My team is absolutely off limits for quota reasons.

    So an inferior team is picked, the 6th to 15th best whites emigrate, and the code of silence only gets broken by players like Harmer who are bitter to have lost their careers and who have nothing left to lose.

    Poor Bavuma is only selectable when De Kock is viewed as a keeper. But clearly AB and De Kock are both superior batsmen, and Bavuma only gets in on quota grounds.
    Last edited by Junaids; 12th August 2017 at 09:41.

  78. #158
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    Affirmative action has helped unearth many talents, and its fruits will be seen in the future. This positive discrimination should not be seen in isolation, it is a way to redress the damage caused by apartheid era.

  79. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And now we are at the crux of the problem.

    The best team would contain 8 whites, not 5.

    If I had to pick a South African team to win the World Test Championship in England, with full liberty to pick any players who have emigrated, my team would be:

    1. Stephen Cook
    2. Dean Elgar
    3. Hashim Amla - now clearly a fading force who has less than a dozen Tests left in him.
    4. AB De Villiers
    5. FAF du Plessis (captain)
    6. Quinton De Kock
    7. Dane Vilas (wk)
    8. Vernon Philander
    9. Kyle Abbott (or Stephen Harmer if I pick a spinner)
    10. Dale Steyn
    11. Kagiso Rabada

    The reason why I might not have a spinner is because there are 6 or 7 better quick bowlers than the best spinner.

    My team is absolutely off limits for quota reasons.

    So an inferior team is picked, the 6th to 15th best whites emigrate, and the code of silence only gets broken by players like Harmer who are bitter to have lost their careers and who have nothing left to lose.

    Poor Bavuma is only selectable when De Kock is viewed as a keeper. But clearly AB and De Kock are both superior batsmen, and Bavuma only gets in on quota grounds.
    Sorry to intrude here for a topic I am not interested, but I was waiting for your response in other thread - apart from skin color, please bother to explain why you should pick Harmar over Mahraj, specially when I have read lot from you regarding the utility of an off-spinner in Test cricket. SAF is struggling, because their established players are not performing & they are missing 2 of the ATGs in playing XI. And, their white players are leaving SAF because of better dollar at County through a back door and they don't have any commitment for SAF, neither the balls to fight it out.

    I have to do this here, because we should be fair with every race, color & religion. You are one of the most respected poster here, therefore your opinion matters - I won't have posted here if it was a random guy -


    Regarding your team, I explained why it's biased to fit in your theory - would like read response form you & other posters on the following link. I don't want to tag anyone, but would appreciate posters bothering to respond here or there.

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...59#post9390759

  80. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    No offence, but you are completely misunderstanding the situation.

    There is a maximum white quota cap of an average of 5 white players in the starting eleven.

    That on merit would mean:

    1. FAF du Plessis as skipper
    2. AB De Villiers as an ATG
    3. Dale Steyn as an ATG
    4. Quinton de Kock as a potential future ATG
    5. Dean Elgar as the best opener.

    All other white cricketers know that they can only get into the side as an injury replacement - like Morne Morkel now.

    This has led to an exodus of the ten or so next best white players - people like:

    Neil Wagner
    Kyle Abbott
    Dane Vilas
    Simon Harmer
    Ryan McLaren
    Stephen Cook
    Rilee Rossouw
    Stiaan Van Zyl

    This means that the white players now struggling in the team - Duanne Olivier, Heino Kuhn, Theunis de Bruyn - are not the 6th to 9th best white players but rather the 16th to 19th best.

    An entire generation of players is basically locked out for being white.

    Meanwhile Amla, Duminy and Bavuma deliver diminishing returns, and Philander is never fit, but because of their race they are each very hard to drop.
    Quinton is mixed race. Not purely white.


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