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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Sorry to intrude here for a topic I am not interested, but I was waiting for your response in other thread - apart from skin color, please bother to explain why you should pick Harmar over Mahraj, specially when I have read lot from you regarding the utility of an off-spinner in Test cricket. SAF is struggling, because their established players are not performing & they are missing 2 of the ATGs in playing XI. And, their white players are leaving SAF because of better dollar at County through a back door and they don't have any commitment for SAF, neither the balls to fight it out.

    I have to do this here, because we should be fair with every race, color & religion. You are one of the most respected poster here, therefore your opinion matters - I won't have posted here if it was a random guy -


    Regarding your team, I explained why it's biased to fit in your theory - would like read response form you & other posters on the following link. I don't want to tag anyone, but would appreciate posters bothering to respond here or there.

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...59#post9390759
    Honestly, with the exception of Denys Hobson during the Apartheid Ban I don't think that South Africa has ever had a spinner worthy of being selected.

    I'm deeply unimpressed by Maharaj: I can see why Shamsi has more potential.

    It's not that I "want a white team."

    For me the issues are that:

    1. A country whose playing base is 4 million whites can't afford to omit any players who should be selected on merit.

    2. I doubt that cricket will ever get a foothold in the African population, rather like only private schoolboys ever play rugby union in England and Australia.

    3. Even players like Rabada and Bavuma were either born into wealth and privilege (Rabada) or attended an elite school (Bavuma).

    4. Pay for South African international players is atrocious. Low wages cultivate fixing in poorer - mainly non-white - players, and encourage white players who don't fit inside the "best five white players" quota to emigrate.

    5. That white flight exacerbates domestic quotas by weakening the quality in domestic cricket, which goes on to slow the development of non-white players.

    It's a big mess. It's heading in the Zimbabwe direction.

  2. #162
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    while I do agree that race based selection is not good for any team, let alone RSA, I think the situation is not as bad as it is being projected by some of us here.

    In the recently concluded test series RSA fielded as many as 6-7 white players throughout. The quota system works over the duration of a season and across formats, which means the best way to deal with it is to follow the rotation policy. Quite obviously RSA will be looking to field colored players more in T20 Internationals and probably in some random ODI series to make the numbers.

    In test matches and other important tournaments like ODI World Cup, Champions Trophy etc.. RSA will still field their best line up.

    Moreover the colored players aren't as bad as they are made out to be when we talk about the LOI format. I think Immi Tahir, Shamsi, Maharaj are still better than any other white spinner in RSA. Hash and Rabada are permanent members Quote system or not, and Hash is easily still South Africa's best batsman across formats.

    JP can still make the ODI team on merit and I think players like Farhaan Behardien haven't done that badly at all, they have contributed when required. Another fast bowler Lungi Ngidi is expected to be a very promising youngster. So things are not that bad at all.

    It is nothing like we will always see only 5 white players in South African team, but yes, there will be more rotation of players esp in a meaningless T20I, or an ODI once the series is won/lost.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Honestly, with the exception of Denys Hobson during the Apartheid Ban I don't think that South Africa has ever had a spinner worthy of being selected.

    I'm deeply unimpressed by Maharaj: I can see why Shamsi has more potential.

    It's not that I "want a white team."

    For me the issues are that:

    1. A country whose playing base is 4 million whites can't afford to omit any players who should be selected on merit.

    2. I doubt that cricket will ever get a foothold in the African population, rather like only private schoolboys ever play rugby union in England and Australia.

    3. Even players like Rabada and Bavuma were either born into wealth and privilege (Rabada) or attended an elite school (Bavuma).

    4. Pay for South African international players is atrocious. Low wages cultivate fixing in poorer - mainly non-white - players, and encourage white players who don't fit inside the "best five white players" quota to emigrate.

    5. That white flight exacerbates domestic quotas by weakening the quality in domestic cricket, which goes on to slow the development of non-white players.

    It's a big mess. It's heading in the Zimbabwe direction.


    Apart from Majraj part, which I have confessed last time - I'll never discuss Spinners with an Englishman, I don't completely disagree with any of your points apart from No. 1 - but, you have to look at both ways for your five points -

    1. 4mn or 40mn, doesn't matter, no player should be omitted from racial quota - that's completely agreed. But, that's not the case here - by chance or by design, 5 non whites are performing in the team - it's the white players that have under performed or didn't bother to fight it out. Why should a non white SAF players made to pay for those? Non white SAF's are not making the team out of color quota only - rather the whites are just not good enough and failing to cement their spot.

    2. If that's the case, then cricket'll get extinct from SAF. It's their country & they are 85%+ brutal majority - if they are not interested, the game won't survive there; you can't keep it alive by live support with few whites interested in the game. I see it other way - it's the only way for cricket to survive in SAF is to bring non whites in the game. What you are saying (blacks would ever have foothold), if true then in Soccer Brazil won't have been Brazil, or USA won't have been USA in Basketball - 100 years ago, Brazil had 1 (or 2) "Niger" (no disrespect) in it's Olympic football team ....... Even for ENG, I believe Viv Anderson was the first black (non white) players winning ENG Cap in 1977 - now, that same ENG team has at least 6 Black/non white starters - Clyne, Smalling, Walker, Sturridge, Sterling, Alli - add to that Bertrand, Rashford, Alex Ox, Defoe, Livermore, Rose, Gibbs, Walcott, Welback ...... not sure what you can prove here.

    3. That's just the start - Apartheid SAF had deprived non whites for centuries, therefore they are several generation behind. Now, only those having a little privilege are making it, in future it should reach to the mass level. For example, Kumar Sri Ranji or Dulip were Maharaja, Iftekhar was Nawab of Pataudi, Jahagir Khan (Majid's father) was a barrister in 1930s - they played for ENG, because they got the chance to learn the game. But, 50 years later Vinod Kambli is making it from Mumbai slam, Razzqq was a day laborer at a motor mechanic shop, our Rafique is one of 8 childs of a day laborer mom, with their father leaving them at childhood .............. talent needs opportunity to flourish, not social class.

    4. This one I can't tell - but, I explained several times that MoHa can't & shouldn't complain what Yuvraz is earning, while YV can't complain what Alex Rod is earning at NY Yankees. That's a problem across all section - why should whites only react to that? And, that's a problem for cricket vs football or golf, not white vs black.

    5. Domestic quota may be weakening the system; but this is the only way to bring non whites in the game, so that in future there is a strong non white base. Also, every injustice balances out over time - that's the learning from history. For example, if you put several white names from 50s & 60s SAF team - even you'll be surprised to think, how this guy played Test cricket, sometimes even Captaining the side ..... Here, they are just balancing it a bit. Once, there is enough non white players - it won't be required.

    I reiterate - I am not for any such quota, but I understand what's the reasons behind it. If it ends like ZIM, that'll be because of another Robert Mughabe type, not for bringing blacks in the game.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 13th August 2017 at 16:10.

  4. #164
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    What's the point of having this discussion? There is no active saffer poster to express his opinions.

    It is what it is

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    No offence, but you are completely misunderstanding the situation.

    There is a maximum white quota cap of an average of 5 white players in the starting eleven.

    That on merit would mean:

    1. FAF du Plessis as skipper
    2. AB De Villiers as an ATG
    3. Dale Steyn as an ATG
    4. Quinton de Kock as a potential future ATG
    5. Dean Elgar as the best opener.

    All other white cricketers know that they can only get into the side as an injury replacement - like Morne Morkel now.

    This has led to an exodus of the ten or so next best white players - people like:

    Neil Wagner
    Kyle Abbott
    Dane Vilas
    Simon Harmer
    Ryan McLaren
    Stephen Cook
    Rilee Rossouw
    Stiaan Van Zyl

    This means that the white players now struggling in the team - Duanne Olivier, Heino Kuhn, Theunis de Bruyn - are not the 6th to 9th best white players but rather the 16th to 19th best.

    An entire generation of players is basically locked out for being white.

    Meanwhile Amla, Duminy and Bavuma deliver diminishing returns, and Philander is never fit, but because of their race they are each very hard to drop.
    Hard to feel sorry for these players, imagine how many players would have been denied of their opportunity not just in Cricket.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And now we are at the crux of the problem.

    The best team would contain 8 whites, not 5.

    If I had to pick a South African team to win the World Test Championship in England, with full liberty to pick any players who have emigrated, my team would be:

    1. Stephen Cook
    2. Dean Elgar
    3. Hashim Amla - now clearly a fading force who has less than a dozen Tests left in him.
    4. AB De Villiers
    5. FAF du Plessis (captain)
    6. Quinton De Kock
    7. Dane Vilas (wk)
    8. Vernon Philander
    9. Kyle Abbott (or Stephen Harmer if I pick a spinner)
    10. Dale Steyn
    11. Kagiso Rabada

    The reason why I might not have a spinner is because there are 6 or 7 better quick bowlers than the best spinner.

    My team is absolutely off limits for quota reasons.

    So an inferior team is picked, the 6th to 15th best whites emigrate, and the code of silence only gets broken by players like Harmer who are bitter to have lost their careers and who have nothing left to lose.

    Poor Bavuma is only selectable when De Kock is viewed as a keeper. But clearly AB and De Kock are both superior batsmen, and Bavuma only gets in on quota grounds.

    Let's assume the test championship took place in 2018 your team breaks your own philosophy of having a young team. Amla 35,Steyn 34, AB 34,Vernon 33,Faf 34,Cook is 35/36 can't remember off the top of my head. So it's interesting to fit your own team you will break your own beliefs.

    I actually would say this team is spot on if there was no quota rules but you want a young team but tour selecting this 11.

  7. #167
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    More depressing news coming in, Morne Morkel is also considering a Kolpak deal.

    I hope he stays.

  8. #168
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    This quota system is pathetic for national team .

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_ahm View Post
    More depressing news coming in, Morne Morkel is also considering a Kolpak deal.

    I hope he stays.
    It's inevitable.

    And with

    1) Steyn on his last legs, and

    2) Philander's years of slack diet and fitness catching up prematurely like with Wayne Rooney

    ....... South Africa needed Abbott, Morkel and De Lange to carry the attack from 2018-2021.

    All of whom will have emigrated.

    Pakistan must have an outstanding chance in South Africa in 16 months' time, because Amla will be a caricature quota filler by then too.

  10. #170
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    Can't really blame Morkel if he takes up this deal, he's 33 and knows that if Steyn is fit he likely doesn't have a hope in hell of being selected. This is one of the few occasions I agree with @Junaids, that South African cricket is heading down the mire if the politicians don't buck up. I suspect they wouldn't care.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Can't really blame Morkel if he takes up this deal, he's 33 and knows that if Steyn is fit he likely doesn't have a hope in hell of being selected. This is one of the few occasions I agree with @Junaids, that South African cricket is heading down the mire if the politicians don't buck up. I suspect they wouldn't care.
    He doesn't have a hope of being selected if Steyn comes back? He was their best player against England by a country mile, I think he was SA's man of the series. Also, most people believe Steyn is finished anyway. Morkel will be one of the first names on the team sheet for SA. I will lose a lot of respect for him if he accepts the Kolpak deal

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    He doesn't have a hope of being selected if Steyn comes back? He was their best player against England by a country mile, I think he was SA's man of the series. Also, most people believe Steyn is finished anyway. Morkel will be one of the first names on the team sheet for SA. I will lose a lot of respect for him if he accepts the Kolpak deal
    Of course on merit, he should be the leader of the attack. Problem is that due to the quotas system, SA are likely to select a bowling attack of Philander, Rabada, Maharaj and one of Steyn or Morkel. That much was clarified after the 2015 World Cup, that even when both were fit they'd find excuses to leave the other one out (rested being the convenient excuse usually). There was some talk recently that they had to retire from one format to get a game (Steyn from test cricket and Morkel from ODIs was the rumour).

  13. #173
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    I have reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that Transformation is a sham.

    I am the first to admit the horrors of Apartheid, and I marched in favour of the sporting boycott.

    But whereas the country has avoided becoming Zimbabwe or Mozambique by NOT going for expropriation of white property and wealth, in terms of cricket we are seeing the most self-defeating quota filling imaginable.

    I have no reason to believe that this is about creating an outstanding team that is representative of the demographics of the country.

    Quite the opposite. Kagiso Rabada might be black, but he is also the son of a brain surgeon. Temba Bavuma went to an elite school.

    In effect, we are actually seeing an extension of what happened in the dark days of the 1980's with the West Indies - the black players who thrive effectively do so as "honorary whites".

    Like the odious Ozias Bute at Zimbabwe Cricket, the people pushing blind transformation - in government, not Cricket South Africa - don't care that they are weakening the team or that Kagiso Rabada is about as representative of disadvantaged black youth as Rihanna or Beyoncé.

    To be honest, I don't believe that transformation is even possible.

    In Australia, people from Sydney grow up watching rugby league, not Australian Rules, and the reverse is true in Melbourne.

    I don't believe that black South Africans will give up football for cricket. I don't believe that they will give up football for rugby union.

    It's a mirage, an illusion.

    At best, there will occasionally be 1 or 2 black kids who have become good at cricket, probably in many cases by going the honorary white route like Rabada and Bavuma.

    There will be more mixed race and Indian kids who make it, because they come from less poverty.

    But the whole thing is at best a sham, window dressing to make the team look a bit less exclusively white.

    But transformation into a team with five or less white players is only possible by enfeebling the team and by driving white players to emigrate.

    It's starting to turn into a form of ethnic cleansing of cricket.

    Apartheid was evil. But two wrongs don't make a right.

  14. #174
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    As ridiculous as it gets!




    https://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/T2...dache-20171214

    Cape Town - Henry Davids was scheduled to play in the RAM SLAM T20 Challenge semi-final against the Warriors at SuperSport Park on Wednesday.

    However, minutes before the toss, Davids popped his knee during a warm-up, which meant the Titans opening batsman would not feature in their all-important knockout game.

    According to the Citizen website, with Davids' exclusion it meant that the Titans were short of one player of colour.

    The current quota system stipulates that all franchises must field six players of colour in their starting XIs at all times during this season's Ram Slam T20, One-Day Cup and four-day Sunfoil Series.

    Three of the six must also be black African players.

    The Titans' reserves - Heinrich Klaasen and Shaun von Berg - were not players of colour.

    According to the publication, Titans CEO Jacques Faul had immediately contacted Cricket South Africa (CSA) explaining their situation with CSA making a provision for the Pretoria-franchise.

    However the Titans will need to submit Davids' medical certificate and a written report to CSA's transformation manager, Max Jordaan.

    Titans head coach Mark Boucher called-up Klaasen as a replacement in their semi-final fixture with the Titans opting to bat first in Centurion.

    Tabraiz Shamsi's heroics helped book the Titans their ticket to the final with an emphatic eight-wicket win over the Warriors.

    Boucher and his charges will host the Dolphins in the T20 Challenge final at SuperSport Park on Saturday. Play starts at 18:00.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  15. #175
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    ^ Horrendous.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I have reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that Transformation is a sham.

    I am the first to admit the horrors of Apartheid, and I marched in favour of the sporting boycott.

    But whereas the country has avoided becoming Zimbabwe or Mozambique by NOT going for expropriation of white property and wealth, in terms of cricket we are seeing the most self-defeating quota filling imaginable.

    I have no reason to believe that this is about creating an outstanding team that is representative of the demographics of the country.

    Quite the opposite. Kagiso Rabada might be black, but he is also the son of a brain surgeon. Temba Bavuma went to an elite school.

    In effect, we are actually seeing an extension of what happened in the dark days of the 1980's with the West Indies - the black players who thrive effectively do so as "honorary whites".

    Like the odious Ozias Bute at Zimbabwe Cricket, the people pushing blind transformation - in government, not Cricket South Africa - don't care that they are weakening the team or that Kagiso Rabada is about as representative of disadvantaged black youth as Rihanna or Beyoncé.

    To be honest, I don't believe that transformation is even possible.

    In Australia, people from Sydney grow up watching rugby league, not Australian Rules, and the reverse is true in Melbourne.

    I don't believe that black South Africans will give up football for cricket. I don't believe that they will give up football for rugby union.

    It's a mirage, an illusion.

    At best, there will occasionally be 1 or 2 black kids who have become good at cricket, probably in many cases by going the honorary white route like Rabada and Bavuma.

    There will be more mixed race and Indian kids who make it, because they come from less poverty.

    But the whole thing is at best a sham, window dressing to make the team look a bit less exclusively white.

    But transformation into a team with five or less white players is only possible by enfeebling the team and by driving white players to emigrate.

    It's starting to turn into a form of ethnic cleansing of cricket.

    Apartheid was evil. But two wrongs don't make a right.
    But the more you can persecute whites the better some feel.

  17. #177
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    The Titans are forced not to play at least 3 Internationals. Is there anything more stupid than this? Why not just increase the number of teams? Why not create a developmental team? But that would show a up a lack of decent black players so you hide them in team of 11 and let the 5 white guys do the work. At most there around 20 non white players who are good enough to play at that level, the rest are passengers.

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