Does MS Dhoni win or lose more matches?

[Mobashir]

Often considered as finisher and a match winner on PP, I think he looses as many matches as he has helped India win.

In T20's he was never good, always been one of the most garbage batsman playing.

In ODI's he was good only for 2-3 years at the start of his career.
Poor away in SA and Australia, very poor in world cup big matches. Failed in every big match 2007, 2011 and 2015. Playing only one good innings in 2011 at home, vs Sri Lanka.

So, today we have another example of Dhoni helping his team to loose the match and still going with a not out to make his stats look better. I can remember Dhoni playing such useless, selfish innings sometimes in ODI's:
vs Pakistan in India, 2nd ODI, staying on the crease and not going for a win
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/589309.html

vs South Africa, same thing
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/648651.html

vs Australia, world cup semi final,
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656493.html
Again, good looking score for the stats, but match situation tell you that he was not even going for the win.

Now that were three cases where India were probably going to loose anyway but still as a batsman Dhoni should have at least tried to win it, but he preferred to scored useless fifties.

Now some cases, where his slow batting costed the match to India, again there are probably many more, but I remember two series, one in New Zeland and the one at home against South Africa:
some scorecards:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
Coming in with RRR of 7:50, going out with RRR of 9.85 with a statistically good looking 46 ball 40.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667645.html
Math tied, well Dhoni had lost the match easily, but he was undone by a brilliant partnership between Ashwin and Jadeja (65 from 46 and 66 from 45).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667649.html
Well the less said the better.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903593.html
31 from 30, 1st ODI vs South Africa, single handily loosing the match and wasting a brilliant 150 from Rohit.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903597.html
47 from 61, going out making sure the RRR is over 10 and India can't win it.

And that just some ODI's I remember because they are pretty recent.

In T20's he has also achieved such performances a lot of time.

I consider him as a better match looser than match winner.

[King Kong]

You forgot one match in which India was doing so well until he came out to bat. His slow batting almost cost the match. That should have been criticized heavily, but you know, ironically, he became a hero in the end.
India needed 90 runs in 16 overs when he walks out to bat with 6 wickets in hand. He scored only 14 runs in his first 36 balls.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwe...ch/518959.html

[King Kong]

Can any Dhoni fan list the Dhoni's finishes throughout his career? Sorry, I can't look beyond 4-5 matches.

[Yanna_Rascala]

It's lose and not loose

[Adijazz1706]

Probably equal number of losses and wins, more wins early in his career and more losses later on.

[Sachin136]

Can any Dhoni fan list the Dhoni's finishes throughout his career? Sorry, I can't look beyond 4-5 matches.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

There are many more where he got out at the end.

[Sachin136]

So, today we have another example of Dhoni helping his team to loose the match and still going with a not out to make his stats look better. I can remember Dhoni playing such useless, selfish innings sometimes in ODI's:
vs Pakistan in India, 2nd ODI, staying on the crease and not going for a win
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/589309.html

vs South Africa, same thing
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/648651.html

vs Australia, world cup semi final,
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656493.html
Again, good looking score for the stats, but match situation tell you that he was not even going for the win.

Now that were three cases where India were probably going to loose anyway but still as a batsman Dhoni should have at least tried to win it, but he preferred to scored useless fifties.

Now some cases, where his slow batting costed the match to India, again there are probably many more, but I remember two series, one in New Zeland and the one at home against South Africa:
some scorecards:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
Coming in with RRR of 7:50, going out with RRR of 9.85 with a statistically good looking 46 ball 40.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667645.html
Math tied, well Dhoni had lost the match easily, but he was undone by a brilliant partnership between Ashwin and Jadeja (65 from 46 and 66 from 45).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667649.html
Well the less said the better.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903593.html
31 from 30, 1st ODI vs South Africa, single handily loosing the match and wasting a brilliant 150 from Rohit.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903597.html
47 from 61, going out making sure the RRR is over 10 and India can't win it.

Most of those are terrible examples. He came out when wickets were falling easily at the other end. There was no chance of winning, so he might as well try to not get bowled out before 50 overs.

[AlphaFighter]

Regardless, it makes no sense for him to continue now, he is proving to be a major liability.

[King Kong]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

There are many more where he got out at the end.

Since 2010, apart from the WC final knock, he has had only 4 finishes excluding minnows. That's some record for the greatest finisher.

[Sachin136]

Since 2010, apart from the WC final knock, he has had only 4 finishes excluding minnows. That's some record for the greatest finisher.

He has about 12 in matches won while chasing apart from the final. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

Also there are many more matches where he scored at the end of the first innings.

[sensible-indian-fan]

You forgot one match in which India was doing so well until he came out to bat. His slow batting almost cost the match. That should have been criticized heavily, but you know, ironically, he became a hero in the end.
India needed 90 runs in 16 overs when he walks out to bat with 6 wickets in hand. He scored only 14 runs in his first 36 balls.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwe...ch/518959.html

That was the worst match.

Took India to the brink and then hit a six and became hero when Gambo was the real hero.

With that being said, OP is going over the top with his claims.

[#GreenRoars]

He WAS a match winner, but now he isnt. He should not be in the team, or may be there is no other good wicket keeper in India???

[Ab Fan]

But he is clutch while ABD is a choker.

So DHONI over ABD anyday...

[ShoonyaSifar]

Not a big Dhoni fan but anyone cherry picking 6-7 matches in a 300 match career to run him down is being dishonest. He's past it now, refuses to accept the reality and hence deserves to be panned but that takes nothing away from his amazing record as a chaser.

[Mobashir]

Most of those are terrible examples. He came out when wickets were falling easily at the other end. There was no chance of winning, so he might as well try to not get bowled out before 50 overs.

Actually there are two parts in these: the first three, as I said, India would have probably lost anyway but most modern batsman go for a miracle win rather than a useless fifty like he does.

The rest of the list is matches that he was one of the main actor of the loss.

[aliasad1998]

He WAS a match winner, but now he isnt. He should not be in the team, or may be there is no other good wicket keeper in India???

KL Rahul is miles above Sarfraz is LO cricket.

[sensible-indian-fan]

But he is clutch while ABD is a choker.

So DHONI over ABD anyday...

Haha

ABD is analyzed from 10,000 angles and 20,000 imaginary angles.

Of course he will be a useless choker.

[sensible-indian-fan]

Actually there are two parts in these: the first three, as I said, India would have probably lost anyway but most modern batsman go for a miracle win rather than a useless fifty like he does.

The rest of the list is matches that he was one of the main actor of the loss.

List your top 10 ODI bats if you don't mind.

[Hasan123]

He has won games for India in the past he just on the decline now

[Dman]

What about the match against England in T20 2009 WC?

So often he has left the job for his team-mates and remained not out in the end.

If 50 runs are required in 30 balls, expect Dhone to remain not out at 20 in 18 balls at end of the match, whether India will lose or win depends upon the rest of the balls faced by other batsmen.

Has always been a pathetic failure in International T20s, without a single Fifty.

[The Last Of The Stars]

KL Rahul is miles above Sarfraz is LO cricket.

But he can't play for Pakistan, brother.

[The Last Of The Stars]

Potw.

[Berserk_Marshal_]

Sorry but these are far from being the best examples of the point you're trying to put forth. Most of these innings are of him coming in at No.6/7, a position where you have to play the dual role of finishing+preventing a further collapse. It's arguably the toughest position to bat in ODIs because you aren't only facing the total the opposition has set for you, you're moulding your game according to what the top order has set for you as well. Facing an NRR > 7 with not much left to come is easier said than done and no doubt you'd see more failures than successes. It's not as much because of the merit of the batsman as of the predicament of the situation you have with regards to defence and attack. Any of these innings are no way worse than let's say his innings in this ODI:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...ch/895813.html

0 (3), coming in at 277-2 (37.3) chasing 348 with Kohli at the other end. Playing a bit of a careless stroke thinking Kohli at the other end and others coming would take them home regardless; what ensued is no secret. I would rather criticise this knock a thousand times more than any of the knocks you mentioned.

[aliasad1998]

But he can't play for Pakistan, brother.

Look at GRs original post. Asked if there is no other good keeper batsman in India

[sajeebmcj]

and people think he is the best finisher of alltime. he is nowhere near michael bevan.
and buffet will put him over sachin and de villiers in odi team

[Dman]

Rabada even made a clown of him in the first Odi against India.

So called Greatest Finisher in the World who takes three singles in three balls of the final over and loses the match for the team.

[King Kong]

If the required run rate was more than 10, what would Dhoni do? There are two possibilities.

1.(If there are batsmen around him). Just watch today's match against Zimbabwe. This is the typical way Dhoni plays. He usually just lets other batsmen hit boundaries, take risks and when he realises India is in good position, just FINISH the match by hitting a four or six(that too only in the last over). Typical Dhoni's style of FINISHING the match. It's just that he couldn't do it today after Pandey and Axar took the match so close to winning. It's just one of those off days for him.

2. (No batsmen around him). Never tries till the last overs. Doesn't even try hitting. Would start hitting only in the last overs when the target was already out of reach and then scores a fifty or remains not out.

[Poshika31]

I can tell u he is the most overhyped finishers the world has seen.i can post nearly 7 matches because of him we lost from winnable positions.

[Poshika31]

Initially in his career he was aggressive and won games in partnership with yuvi and others.but as age is catching up he has lost his slogging big time

[sensible-indian-fan]

I can tell u he is the most overhyped finishers the world has seen.i can post nearly 7 matches because of him we lost from winnable positions.

Post it dude.

[Anfield]

hmm.. interesting thread..

[sensible-indian-fan]

Stallion (one of the most unbiased and knowledgeable posters) did an analysis where he found Bevan to be a much better finisher than Dhoni and said that since Dhoni was a beast in IPL finishing, that aura carried on to ODIs as well.

I don't agree with Stallion always but his knowledge and understanding of context is unquestionable (he is someone I look upto). I didn't look at his analysis post at that time so I dunno.

From watching, Bevan looked invincible to me.

Dhoni not so much though he was damn good.

In the last 1-2 years, he has been horrible.

I also remember him screwing up a winnable chase against NZ T20 in 2012 too. Yuvi came back from cancer injury that game and played very well that game.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...ch/565820.html

Dhgoni walked in when we needed 46 runs to win off 6.3 overs. Almost run a ball.

What happened next was a comedy galore.

[santos11]

I don't think fans would mind even if Dhoni gets a first ball duck while trying to score fast runs but what he does is depend upon his partner to do the fast scoring while taking singles and taking the match to last over.

This obsession with remaining not out is sickening. Either hit out or get out.

[sajeebmcj]

mamoon will come soon to defend dhoni and will show how dhoni is superiors to other along with buffet.

[big_gamer007]

Sometimes things just doesn't work out.. I remember a match forgot who it was against but Dhoni came out and played likE 30 odd balls and couldn't middle even a single ball and we lost eventually... He has his moments where it doesn't work out but he is still the best finisher India ever had..

Also when he came into international scene in Pakistan series yuvi got mom in one of the ODI's and Rameez asked him that asking rate was going over 7 didn't you guys panicked? And yuvi said I had msd at the other end I don't care if asking rate goes to 10 he would have won us the game... That's the aura he built during start of his career.. Today's Dhoni is not the same as old Dhoni so there would be some misses where he fails..

[Hamza78]

Dhoni miles batter than other keeper in the world past or present

[The_Odd_One]

Dhoni miles batter than other keeper in the world past or present

Gilchrist says hello!

[The_Odd_One]

Dhoni was very good in first 2, 3 years of his career. After that I always thought he just cashed on the hard work of top order batsman. I think he made a big mistake by not batting in the middle order. His century vs Pakistan in "Aane do series" was one of the best innings I have ever watched.

Dhoni is still a very good ODI batsman and he should bat at #4 after Kohli. In T20s, he should try the same and if it does not work then he should simply retire from T20s.

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Gilchrist says hello!

Sanga says bye bye!

[The Last Of The Stars]

He should play aggressively right from the word go, like in his early days, and shun his artificial defensive mode. This is the only way out for him, otherwise he will continue to struggle.

[Itachi]

Greatest finisher is Tendulkar. Period. No ifs and buts.

I agree with OP hence.

[Mobashir]

List your top 10 ODI bats if you don't mind.

1. Sir Viv
2. Ricky Ponting
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. BC Lara
5. ABDV
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Kevin Pietersen
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Micheal Bevan

PS: Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli and very very good. But they are probably half way forward in their career so for me it's still hard to put them somewhere in here. So far, both will be between 6 to 12...

[msb314]

1. Sir Viv
2. Ricky Ponting
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. BC Lara
5. ABDV
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Kevin Pietersen
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Micheal Bevan

PS: Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli and very very good. But they are probably half way forward in their career so for me it's still hard to put them somewhere in here. So far, both will be between 6 to 12...

Both should replace KP who was a mediocre player in the grand scheme of things.

[Mobashir]

That was the worst match.

Took India to the brink and then hit a six and became hero when Gambo was the real hero.

With that being said, OP is going over the top with his claims.

That innings is so so overhyped here by posters, especially Mamoon just to fulfill his anti ABDV agenda.
That innings was the third best of the final. In every final (apart from 99) there were much better innings, incomparable innings compared to that one.
An innings that hasn't been played in a final can still be better than one played in the final and even a non world cup innings can be better than this.

For example, McCullum or Steven Smith semi final efforts are far far better than that Dhoni innings, incomparable.

Dhoni is as much a poor world cup player as it comes.

[Mobashir]

Both should replace KP who was a mediocre player in the grand scheme of things.

KP's one day carrier hasn't done justice to his immense talent but just to clarify the two things I emphasizes most when I select teams or compare players with equal value :
1. Overall career.
2. I am playing against a great team, who I will want to be in my team to win me the match.

So even if KP isn't that good in the my first criteria, he is in the top 5 in the second criteria.

[Sachin136]

That innings is so so overhyped here by posters, especially Mamoon just to fulfill his anti ABDV agenda.
That innings was the third best of the final. In every final (apart from 99) there were much better innings, incomparable innings compared to that one.
An innings that hasn't been played in a final can still be better than one played in the final and even a non world cup innings can be better than this.

For example, McCullum or Steven Smith semi final efforts are far far better than that Dhoni innings, incomparable.

Dhoni is as much a poor world cup player as it comes.

He is talking about a different match. http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwe...ch/518959.html

[Mobashir]

He is talking about a different match. http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwe...ch/518959.html

Ho ok, my bad.
Another poor innings from Dhoni that could have lost a won match to India. Was very lucky that McKay bowled a poor last over.

[sensible-indian-fan]

That innings is so so overhyped here by posters, especially Mamoon just to fulfill his anti ABDV agenda.
That innings was the third best of the final. In every final (apart from 99) there were much better innings, incomparable innings compared to that one.
An innings that hasn't been played in a final can still be better than one played in the final and even a non world cup innings can be better than this.

For example, McCullum or Steven Smith semi final efforts are far far better than that Dhoni innings, incomparable.

Dhoni is as much a poor world cup player as it comes.

I wasn't talking about WC 2011 finals. It was a great knock.

Was talking about the last over sixer match against Aus.

[sensible-indian-fan]

1. Sir Viv
2. Ricky Ponting
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. BC Lara
5. ABDV
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Kevin Pietersen
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Micheal Bevan

PS: Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli and very very good. But they are probably half way forward in their career so for me it's still hard to put them somewhere in here. So far, both will be between 6 to 12...

Ok thanks.

[Kaptan]

Lose more matches than win.
But if you compare him with others he wins more matches than them in difficult circumstances.

[RamLakhan]

He WAS a match winner, but now he isnt. He should not be in the team, or may be there is no other good wicket keeper in India???

That's the point! No wicket keeper with 80% of his skills (wicket-keeping). And if you compromise on that you will get someone like Saha who are not that good in LOI either. And on the other side people like Rahul/Uttappa are too poor in wicket-keeping and it may affect their batting as well (even here Uttappa is tried & tested and was not utilized that much as WK either). The only man who can be some kind of balance between both (WK & Batting) is Dinesh Karthik (But even he is tried and tested and is he is way too Off/On player).

I think one immediate thing that can be done to correct this is to relieve Dhoni from captaincy. That might take off some pressure and he can concentrate more on his batting. In the meanwhile we should definitely trust and groom someone to take up his job (WK batsman). Probably this is a farewell tour for him (captaincy). And if Shastri becomes the head coach I am sure he will axe his captaincy.

[Zak_Fan]

One bad T20, and look at the reaction.

[Zak_Fan]

I don't think fans would mind even if Dhoni gets a first ball duck while trying to score fast runs but what he does is depend upon his partner to do the fast scoring while taking singles and taking the match to last over.

This obsession with remaining not out is sickening. Either hit out or get out.

Really? Is this the reason he goes for a last-ball six every single time?

[street cricketer]

I once read a post here that Kohli was an overrated chaser and finisher.

Now Dhoni also loses more matches for India than he wins.

Then who the heck is the best finisher of this era?

[Asim2Good]

problem with Dhoni now a days is that he is taking the matches to very last over/limit.
he still can finish the matches, if he target to finish the matches 1-2 overs earlier.
in yesterday match, he was leaving it for youngsters to finish the match, and took the match to very last delivery. so ofcourse, somewhere you are gonna fail when you keep on delay the charge.

[Mamoon]

mamoon will come soon to defend dhoni and will show how dhoni is superiors to other along with buffet.

Nothing to defend here.

He is a match-winner and a great finisher.

Yes he has failed a few times but he has also excelled many, many times and has won more matches for India than most other players have for their countries, that is why he is an ODI legend.

That is all.

[Mamoon]

Kohli is overrated and Dhoni is a match-loser.

I really wonder how India have managed to achieve so much success in ODIs over the last 10 years or so while Pakistan with the rich talent of Umar Akmal and Ahmed Shehzad have plunged to new lows.

I really do wish we could find someone half of overrated Kohli and match-loser Dhoni in the Pakistan team. It will mean we will become a top 3 team overnight.

[CricketAnalyst]

Often considered as finisher and a match winner on PP, I think he looses as many matches as he has helped India win.

In T20's he was never good, always been one of the most garbage batsman playing.

In ODI's he was good only for 2-3 years at the start of his career.
Poor away in SA and Australia, very poor in world cup big matches. Failed in every big match 2007, 2011 and 2015. Playing only one good innings in 2011 at home, vs Sri Lanka.

So, today we have another example of Dhoni helping his team to loose the match and still going with a not out to make his stats look better. I can remember Dhoni playing such useless, selfish innings sometimes in ODI's:
vs Pakistan in India, 2nd ODI, staying on the crease and not going for a win
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/589309.html

vs South Africa, same thing
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/648651.html

vs Australia, world cup semi final,
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656493.html
Again, good looking score for the stats, but match situation tell you that he was not even going for the win.

Now that were three cases where India were probably going to loose anyway but still as a batsman Dhoni should have at least tried to win it, but he preferred to scored useless fifties.

Now some cases, where his slow batting costed the match to India, again there are probably many more, but I remember two series, one in New Zeland and the one at home against South Africa:
some scorecards:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html
Coming in with RRR of 7:50, going out with RRR of 9.85 with a statistically good looking 46 ball 40.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667645.html
Math tied, well Dhoni had lost the match easily, but he was undone by a brilliant partnership between Ashwin and Jadeja (65 from 46 and 66 from 45).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667649.html
Well the less said the better.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903593.html
31 from 30, 1st ODI vs South Africa, single handily loosing the match and wasting a brilliant 150 from Rohit.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/903597.html
47 from 61, going out making sure the RRR is over 10 and India can't win it.

And that just some ODI's I remember because they are pretty recent.

In T20's he has also achieved such performances a lot of time.

I consider him as a better match looser than match winner.

He wins a lot of matches and loses a lot of matches.

Far preferable is a batsman like Afridi who wins a few matches but loses you none.

And by lose here I mean a batsman preventing others from winning the game.

[#GreenRoars]

That's the point! No wicket keeper with 80% of his skills (wicket-keeping). And if you compromise on that you will get someone like Saha who are not that good in LOI either. And on the other side people like Rahul/Uttappa are too poor in wicket-keeping and it may affect their batting as well (even here Uttappa is tried & tested and was not utilized that much as WK either). The only man who can be some kind of balance between both (WK & Batting) is Dinesh Karthik (But even he is tried and tested and is he is way too Off/On player).

I think one immediate thing that can be done to correct this is to relieve Dhoni from captaincy. That might take off some pressure and he can concentrate more on his batting. In the meanwhile we should definitely trust and groom someone to take up his job (WK batsman). Probably this is a farewell tour for him (captaincy). And if Shastri becomes the head coach I am sure he will axe his captaincy.

Exactly, i was thinking the same. But i don't understand WHY there is no good WK out there? If i remember correctly at U-19 i saw an Indian WK Sanju Samson, a brilliant batsman and a WK at U-19 level. Later on i heard from my Indian friends here that he is no more a good player and WK.

But some people say Dhoni won't play under any other captain??

[Mobashir]

Lose more matches than win.
But if you compare him with others he wins more matches than them in difficult circumstances.

Please can you share those matches he has won from difficult situations?

As I myself said he was very good and he has done this in his 2-3 first years... Then, I can just see an Indian captain being overhyped as the best this and best that, without someone showing me actual scorecards of matches he won that were nearly lost when he came at the crease and he won it for India.
Surely the best finisher, chaser etc should have some to show in the past 8 years?

[Mobashir]

Kohli is overrated and Dhoni is a match-loser.

I really wonder how India have managed to achieve so much success in ODIs over the last 10 years or so while Pakistan with the rich talent of Umar Akmal and Ahmed Shehzad have plunged to new lows.

I really do wish we could find someone half of overrated Kohli and match-loser Dhoni in the Pakistan team. It will mean we will become a top 3 team overnight.

The best South african batsmen over the past 5 years are without a doubt ABDV and Amla , still you call them the most overrated pair of all time.
The same way Kohli is the best indian batsman and an excellent ODI batsman but is still overrated.

Hope that gives you an awnser? :p

[RamLakhan]

But some people say Dhoni won't play under any other captain??

I am not sure if Dhoni has given any such public statement or even in any BCCI meetings. It could be a false theory propagated by media and his fans! For this one reason I want Shastri to become our head coach (I am sure he wants to retain Dhoni as player at the same time wants to axe his captaincy!) There is nothing wrong in retaining him as a player till we find proper replacement. Indian Captains of IPL (Kohli, Rohit, Gambhir) should observe what their wicket keepers (if Indian) are doing and try to give them more responsibility for the betterment of Indian National Side. Also Indian domestic players (including first class) have to see this an opportunity and improve both their basic (W/k or Batting) and subsidiary (Batting or W/k) skills, their only competitor is aging Dhoni! But certainly he has set such high standards!

When India was finding it so difficult to find some kind of alrounder (including W/k batsman) even half as good as him, he brought such a balance to the team! It is ridiculous that people are now commenting on his place in the side after he set those standards. Probably he will become ATG Wicket-keeper batsman if you run a poll even in PP (surpassing Gilchrist, Sangakkara, etc).

[Mamoon]

The best South african batsmen over the past 5 years are without a doubt ABDV and Amla , still you call them the most overrated pair of all time.
The same way Kohli is the best indian batsman and an excellent ODI batsman but is still overrated.

Hope that gives you an awnser? :p

In spite of having de Villiers and Amla, South Africa have not come close to matching India's success in ODIs and T20s in the last 10 years.

That answers your question on who the bigger match-winners are: Kohli/Dhoni or Amla/de Villiers.

Under pressure, Amla is the worst player in Limited Overs history and de Villiers hides behind the top-order in ODIs instead of taking responsibility at the top, but still can't match Dhoni's finishing skills, not to mention a total choker in World T20s.

Hence, considering these facts, it's clear which duo is more overrated and which duo are better match-winners.

[#GreenRoars]

In spite of having de Villiers and Amla, South Africa have not come close to matching India's success in ODIs and T20s in the last 10 years.

That answers your question on who the bigger match-winners are: Kohli/Dhoni or Amla/de Villiers.

Under pressure, Amla is the worst player in Limited Overs history and de Villiers hides behind the top-order in ODIs instead of taking responsibility at the top, but still can't match Dhoni's finishing skills, not to mention a total choker in World T20s.

Hence, considering these facts, it's clear which duo is more overrated and which duo are better match-winners.

Then i wonder why India ODI team W/L ratio is lesser than SA?? Or from Success you mean performances at WC only??

[jusarrived]

He wins a lot of matches and loses a lot of matches.

Far preferable is a batsman like Afridi who wins a few matches but loses you none.

And by lose here I mean a batsman preventing others from winning the game.

This guy is a genius .
IIRC your the same poster who said Afridi is a better T20 batsmen than Virat too ? your understanding of the game is simply ....

[Hawkeye]

Stallion (one of the most unbiased and knowledgeable posters) did an analysis where he found Bevan to be a much better finisher than Dhoni and said that since Dhoni was a beast in IPL finishing, that aura carried on to ODIs as well.

I don't agree with Stallion always but his knowledge and understanding of context is unquestionable (he is someone I look upto). I didn't look at his analysis post at that time so I dunno.

From watching, Bevan looked invincible to me.

Dhoni not so much though he was damn good.

In the last 1-2 years, he has been horrible.

I also remember him screwing up a winnable chase against NZ T20 in 2012 too. Yuvi came back from cancer injury that game and played very well that game.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...ch/565820.html

Dhgoni walked in when we needed 46 runs to win off 6.3 overs. Almost run a ball.

What happened next was a comedy galore.

Dhoni has gotten that false image associated with him that he's an ATG finisher.

You do it one or two memorable games and you get the tag. No matter if you're really that good or not.

Dhoni has benefited from an ATG ODI batting top-order, he has rarely had to rebuild innings, stop collapses and win you matches after 5/6 down with a high required run rate to get.

In fact, I've seen him often fail whenever the going gets tough and he has to rebuild from a collapse.

Of course there are some memorable exceptions like in Aane Do, so people get the impression he really is that good. Which is wrong.

The tag is associated with him because almost ALWAYS the top order made the match, scored bulk of the runs, only for him to be coming down in the last few overs, wickets still in hand and few runs to make with comfortable required RR.

[Mamoon]

Then i wonder why India ODI team W/L ratio is lesser than SA?? Or from Success you mean performances at WC only??

No one cares about your bilateral record in Limited Overs when you win a World Cup, Champions Trophy and World T20 in 6 years.

South Africa is king of bilaterals. That is why the likes of Amla have outstanding stats.

However, the true test of your mettle in Limited Overs is ICC tournaments, not bilaterals.

India have proved themselves as a team on the big stages and so have Dhoni (World Cup final) and Kohli (World T20s).

This is where South Africa falls short. Well short.

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dhoni has gotten that false image associated with him that he's an ATG finisher.

You do it one or two memorable games and you get the tag. No matter if you're really that good or not.

Dhoni has benefited from an ATG ODI batting top-order, he has rarely had to rebuild innings, stop collapses and win you matches after 5/6 down with a high required run rate to get.

In fact, I've seen him often fail whenever the going gets tough and he has to rebuild from a collapse.

Of course there are some memorable exceptions like in Aane Do, so people get the impression he really is that good. Which is wrong.

The tag is associated with him because almost ALWAYS the top order made the match, scored bulk of the runs, only for him to be coming down in the last few overs, wickets still in hand and few runs to make with comfortable required RR.

He is an ATG finisher (has had his screw ups no doubt).

Maybe not as good as Bevan (as per analysis) but that doesn't make him bad.

He even closed out a final against SL in tri series 2013 (in WI). A game that was well and truly lost.

A knock of supreme execution and mind boggling analytical ability. I watched it live.

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dhoni being considered as a bat way better than what he actually was...is what I dispute.

He was nowhere as invincible as he is made out to be.

Screwed up a lot in tournaments.

[Kaptan]

Please can you share those matches he has won from difficult situations?

As I myself said he was very good and he has done this in his 2-3 first years... Then, I can just see an Indian captain being overhyped as the best this and best that, without someone showing me actual scorecards of matches he won that were nearly lost when he came at the crease and he won it for India.
Surely the best finisher, chaser etc should have some to show in the past 8 years?

There are many
Final of tri series when wickets kept on falling from one end and some 15-16 runs were required in last over with only one wicket left.
That hundred when India was 20/5 against pakistan in 2012. India lost that match but full points goes to Dhoni for that brilliant hundred.
World cup final match - He played a brilliant inning. Not a difficult chase but still a tricky one. We have seen soo many times that team chasing gets to a good position and then loses once 1-2 wickets fall in quick succession. Dhoni ensured that this doesn't happen.
Tri-series match against Australia where again India lost some quick wickets at the last and some how Dhoni took the match to the last over and won.
There was also a tied match between India and SL where 4 was required of the last ball and Dhoni ran 3.

Yes, Dhoni might fail more often than succeed. Lets take an imaginary example. Dhoni wins 4 out of 10 times in difficult situations. Only 4 out of 10 is not impressive but if you compare it with other batsman in similar situations (2/10 or 3/10) you will find that Dhoni is well ahead of them.

[CricketAnalyst]

This guy is a genius .
IIRC your the same poster who said Afridi is a better T20 batsmen than Virat too ? your understanding of the game is simply ....

My understanding of T20 is streets ahead of yours.

It's a fact that Kohli and Dhoni have 0 understanding of T20.

The only reason they have good records is because Kohli's skill level is on a different planet and until he started getting old, the same was true of Dhoni.

Also, your view is tainted by seeing an old man (Afridi must be 40+ in reality) playing for a weak side and coming in needing to chase 12 RPO+ every time (because of top order batsmen who use Dhoni/Kohli logic).

A guy who scores 30 (14), and 0 (1) is more useful to a team than a guy who scores 50 (40) and then 80 (60).

T20 is very un-intuitive for a person who started with other formats.

The main thing you have to understand is that the runs scored by one batsman could very easily be scored by another player. 50 overs in ODI is usually enough or close for a team. 20 overs is not enough. As a consequence, slow runs are just runs taken off the bats of the other expert batsmen.

Slow runs kill the team in a way that getting out does not.

Win one game alone, lose the next game alone is MUCH worse than a quick cameo in one game and a first ball duck in the other.

[Hawkeye]

He is an ATG finisher (has had his screw ups no doubt).

Maybe not as good as Bevan (as per analysis) but that doesn't make him bad.

He even closed out a final against SL in tri series 2013 (in WI). A game that was well and truly lost.

A knock of supreme execution and mind boggling analytical ability. I watched it live.

If you want, you can include him in the list of ATG finishers, a matter of personal opinion. His creds do put him among the top ones.

But he's certainly not the best out there. False illusion.

[CricketAnalyst]

He is an ATG finisher (has had his screw ups no doubt).

Maybe not as good as Bevan (as per analysis) but that doesn't make him bad.

He even closed out a final against SL in tri series 2013 (in WI). A game that was well and truly lost.

A knock of supreme execution and mind boggling analytical ability. I watched it live.

I watched that.

That was a genuinely magnificent knock.

The problem is that Dhoni ALWAYS makes it close. That isn't a good thing when the chase is easy to begin with. Regardless of whether it's easy or difficult he takes it to a stage where anything can happen.

The sheer number of times he's ended up with not enough runs while five or six wickets left proves that his strategy is usually idiotic. Even if you get there with 1 ball or 0 balls left, can one call it good, when you have six wickets in the tank that could have allowed others to finish it faster?

For very long Dhoni has survived because his execution of idiotic strategies has been so good that it didn't matter. Now he's executing like a mortal and people can see the true merit (lack of) in his approach to limited overs cricket.

It's difficult to see how India will ever win a limited overs tourney for a while because it's almost humanly impossible for batsmen to be better than the Indian top order guys when it comes to skill levels. If Kohli wasn't enough to win the WC; nothing we do will be unless the strategy changes.

[Indian_Supporter]

Quite Shameful the hate MSD gets everywhere even after achieving so much for his country. I stopped visiting Indian forum because that has turned into a Dhoni hating site. Now even here, people going after Dhoni and questioning his credentials as a match winner. Shocking.

For me MSD is the biggest match winner (in LOIs) as far as Indian cricket is concerned. And in test cricket, Sehwag is our biggest match winner. I dont care what statistics people put up but the impact these people had on Indian cricket is irreplacable.

But the problem is with players like Sehwag and Dhoni, they are instinct players. Hand eye cordination as they say. So after a certain age players of these type start rapid decline. On the other hand technically correct cricketers like Sachin, Dravid, Sanga, Misbah etc can play for longer because even if their reflexes dies dowm due to age...they have technique to grind it out. Infact MSD himself admitted in press conference that he is not someone like Virat Kohli who can play towards cover and at the same time towards fine leg. His game is manuver the ball for singles and if the ball is on slot hit it for six.

We all understand MS has declined immensely. And I am sure he will retire soon. But this daily criticism serves no purpose and neither deny the fact he is one of the greatest finishers and match winners we have seen.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Smbhayi]

Rabada even made a clown of him in the first Odi against India.

So called Greatest Finisher in the World who takes three singles in three balls of the final over and loses the match for the team.

So called greatest batsman Scored Zero in his last innings :bradman. what's your point?

[Smbhayi]

Btw do you guys really questions his finishing ability through T20 matches? he was never good in that format.

[Abdul]

He has been a phenomenal player for India over the years, but I think it might be the time for him...

[The_Odd_One]

No one cares about your bilateral record in Limited Overs when you win a World Cup, Champions Trophy and World T20 in 6 years.

South Africa is king of bilaterals. That is why the likes of Amla have outstanding stats.

However, the true test of your mettle in Limited Overs is ICC tournaments, not bilaterals.

India have proved themselves as a team on the big stages and so have Dhoni (World Cup final) and Kohli (World T20s).

This is where South Africa falls short. Well short.

Which WT20 has Kohli won?

Other than one inning, check Dhoni's average in WCs.

[Mamoon]

Which WT20 has Kohli won?

Other than one inning, check Dhoni's average in WCs.

He has been brilliant in two World T20s and has performed in knockouts as well.

Dhoni may have one innings only but a match-winning World Cup final innings holds a lot of value.

Amla on the other hand has been a total failure in ICC tournaments and de Villiers has an excellent World Cup record, but he has not won his team a single knockout match with his bat.

[Hasan123]

1. Sir Viv
2. Ricky Ponting
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. BC Lara
5. ABDV
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq
7. Adam Gilchrist
8. Kevin Pietersen
9. Saeed Anwar
10. Micheal Bevan

PS: Hashim Amla and Virat Kohli and very very good. But they are probably half way forward in their career so for me it's still hard to put them somewhere in here. So far, both will be between 6 to 12...

Hayden ganguly sehwag sanath are all much better players than KP. KP underachieved in Odis.