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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    You were born in the UK. You moved to Australia when you were an adult. Australia is a different country from the UK. You're an expat.
    And I became an Australian citizen by undergoing a ceremony in which I swore allegiance to the Queen.

    Just as I did in New Zealand.

    Just as I would in Canada.

    My kids watch Neighbours, Geordie Shore and The Inbetweeners, and so do their Aussie friends. And so do their English cousins.

    They play cricket, rugby league, netball and hockey.

    Canada is a bit different, but to a very great extent Australia and New Zealand (with all due respect to their indigenous people) have as much in common culturally with England, Scotland, Wales and the two Irelands as those countries have with one another.

    Have you been to Dublin? It's more self-governing than Australia or New Zealand. But people from there fit in in London or Leeds just as easily as someone from Edinburgh.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And I became an Australian citizen by undergoing a ceremony in which I swore allegiance to the Queen.

    Just as I did in New Zealand.

    Just as I would in Canada.

    My kids watch Neighbours, Geordie Shore and The Inbetweeners, and so do their Aussie friends. And so do their English cousins.

    They play cricket, rugby league, netball and hockey.

    Canada is a bit different, but to a very great extent Australia and New Zealand (with all due respect to their indigenous people) have as much in common culturally with England, Scotland, Wales and the two Irelands as those countries have with one another.

    Have you been to Dublin? It's more self-governing than Australia or New Zealand. But people from there fit in in London or Leeds just as easily as someone from Edinburgh.
    Why did you need to become an australian citizen if UK and Australia are not different countries? You're an expat, no point pretending otherwise. Only your neo-colonial delusions will not have you admit that.
    Last edited by endymion248; 22nd December 2016 at 15:07.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Do you think that's what the good folk of Britain were voting for when they opted for Brexit?
    Nope, but they are going to get it Law of Unforeseen Consequences and all that....

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    As if Sudan is a major indication of much.

    Lets be realistic here, I'm not pro or anti-Brexit I saw and still do see both sides and I oppose a pan-european superstate, but lets call the Commonwealth for what it is. A talking shop
    They are a major indication of where our oil and raw materials could come from in an enhanced Commonwealth of Nations.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Boris Johnson visited Australia long before he came out in favour of Brexit and argued for this.

    I would like the UK to follow Australia in concluding multiple Free Trade Agreements with the likes of the USA, China and Japan.

    And I would like to see the return of the Dark Blue British passport and a return to the pre-1982 status quo. Until then, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders were citizens of their nation but British Subjects. That expression is politically toxic now, but I would like to see reciprocal limited Freedom of Movement and recognition of qualifications between those four nations and Ireland. For the UK I would also add Malta and Cyprus.
    And Gib, and the Falklands.

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    And Gib, and the Falklands.
    I'm pretty sure that Spain and Argentina will see how far they can push it with both of them.

    On a diplomatic front we need to link Gibraltar with Spain's rule over Ceuta and Melilla.

    And we need to invest enough in defence to maintain a clear deterrent.

  7. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Why did you need to become an australian citizen if UK and Australia are not different countries? You're an expat, no point pretending otherwise. Only your neo-colonial delusions will not have you admit that.
    I enjoy our debates and I mean no disrespect towards you.

    But your posts seem infused with a kind of colonial victim bitterness. And I can assure you that my working class northern English ancestors were no more fortunate or privileged.

    I must repeat that this is about shared culture and values, not ownership or domination.

    I live in Australia. My sister in London does not own me, but we share the same culture (well, roughly 95% of it) and values.

    It's not a vestige of colonialism. Nowadays it's just shared culture and values.

    It's why The Ashes is such a hot rivalry.

    And why Poles and Czechs are so foreign to us.
    Last edited by Junaids; 22nd December 2016 at 20:54.

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Spain and Argentina will see how far they can push it with both of them.

    On a diplomatic front we need to link Gibraltar with Spain's rule over Ceuta and Melilla.

    And we need to invest enough in defence to maintain a clear deterrent.
    Making up some abstract link with Ceuta and Melila isn't going to cover the damage of opting for Brexit when the people of Gibraltar voted to remain. Gibraltar is entirely reliant on the open border with Spain while Ceuta and Melilla are not, they have barely any trading link with Morroco.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I enjoy our debates and I mean no disrespect towards you.

    But your posts seem infused with a kind of colonial victim bitterness. And I can assure you that my working class northern English ancestors were no more fortunate or privileged.

    I must repeat that this is about shared culture and values, not ownership or domination.

    I live in Australia. My sister in London does not own me, but we share the same culture (well, roughly 95% of it) and values.

    It's not a vestige of colonialism. Nowadays it's just shared culture and values.

    It's why The Ashes is such a hot rivalry.

    And why Poles and Czechs are so foreign to us.
    That's another argument. We can think about it after we have resolved the problem at hand, which is: an expat is someone living in a different country than their own. Australia and UK are different countries. No amount of shared culture can change that.

    The only way that could be wrong is if Australia grants automatic citizenship to anyone from the UK like Romania does for Moldova. But that's not the case. You had to earn the australian citizenship the same way someone from Argentina or Mongolia or China would have: by being a resident for x amount of time.

    Once you admit that you are an expat, we can move on to my bitterness about colonialism and the difference between an Australia immigrant and a Czech immigrant.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Making up some abstract link with Ceuta and Melila isn't going to cover the damage of opting for Brexit when the people of Gibraltar voted to remain. Gibraltar is entirely reliant on the open border with Spain while Ceuta and Melilla are not, they have barely any trading link with Morroco.
    Abstract?

    Are you serious?

    Our Spanish "friends" see nothing hypocritical about making a moral claim to Gibraltar even though they cling to their two coastal exclaves in Morocco.

    Even though in 2002 99% of Gibraltarians voted to remain exclusively British.

    I view rearmament as an important priority post-Brexit. Building our own ships and aircraft like in the era of the V Bombers and English Electric Lightning.

    Leaving the EU needs to be backed up by strength. If the Spanish seek to close the border, we need to have the strength to resolve such crises by traditional gunboat diplomacy.

    They are a country with such a soft underbelly that they have 50% unemployment in the Under-30 age range. We need to be strong enough to win disputes with such failed states.

  11. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    That's another argument. We can think about it after we have resolved the problem at hand, which is: an expat is someone living in a different country than their own. Australia and UK are different countries. No amount of shared culture can change that.

    The only way that could be wrong is if Australia grants automatic citizenship to anyone from the UK like Romania does for Moldova. But that's not the case. You had to earn the australian citizenship the same way someone from Argentina or Mongolia or China would have: by being a resident for x amount of time.

    Once you admit that you are an expat, we can move on to my bitterness about colonialism and the difference between an Australia immigrant and a Czech immigrant.
    Actually I didn't have to apply to migrate to Australia. I just rocked up at Brisbane Airport with my New Zealand passport.

    Which is pretty much how I'd like to see UK, Irish, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand citizens able to enjoy reciprocal rights.

    And I think that is politically not at all toxic, unlike Romanian or Lithuanian residence rights.

  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Actually I didn't have to apply to migrate to Australia. I just rocked up at Brisbane Airport with my New Zealand passport.

    Which is pretty much how I'd like to see UK, Irish, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand citizens able to enjoy reciprocal rights.

    And I think that is politically not at all toxic, unlike Romanian or Lithuanian residence rights.
    Yes and I can also rock up to Australia or Canada or the US without a visa. This isn't what we are talking about.

    You weren't an australian citizen just because you ''rocked up'' to Australia. You had to follow the rules to apply for citizenship. Which proves that you were an expat/immigrant.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  13. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Abstract?

    Are you serious?

    Our Spanish "friends" see nothing hypocritical about making a moral claim to Gibraltar even though they cling to their two coastal exclaves in Morocco.

    Even though in 2002 99% of Gibraltarians voted to remain exclusively British.

    I view rearmament as an important priority post-Brexit. Building our own ships and aircraft like in the era of the V Bombers and English Electric Lightning.

    Leaving the EU needs to be backed up by strength. If the Spanish seek to close the border, we need to have the strength to resolve such crises by traditional gunboat diplomacy.

    They are a country with such a soft underbelly that they have 50% unemployment in the Under-30 age range. We need to be strong enough to win disputes with such failed states.
    If the UK has the right to close its borders with the EU then so can Spain with Gibraltar. No amount of gunboats is going to change that.

    UK is going to rearm after Brexit? Is that what the supposed 340 millions a week are going to be spent on, instead of the NHS?

    This isn't 2010 anymore. Spain's doing fine.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  14. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    That's another argument. We can think about it after we have resolved the problem at hand, which is: an expat is someone living in a different country than their own. Australia and UK are different countries. No amount of shared culture can change that.

    The only way that could be wrong is if Australia grants automatic citizenship to anyone from the UK like Romania does for Moldova. But that's not the case. You had to earn the australian citizenship the same way someone from Argentina or Mongolia or China would have: by being a resident for x amount of time.

    Once you admit that you are an expat, we can move on to my bitterness about colonialism and the difference between an Australia immigrant and a Czech immigrant.
    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Yes and I can also rock up to Australia or Canada or the US without a visa. This isn't what we are talking about.

    You weren't an australian citizen just because you ''rocked up'' to Australia. You had to follow the rules to apply for citizenship. Which proves that you were an expat/immigrant.
    Again, actually no.

    I turned up on the Sunday and started work as a doctor (on my Kiwi passport) as soon as I was registered to practice.

    Those Chinese immigrants have to apply for Permanent Residence in Australia and pass Boris' fabled Points Test.

    As a Kiwi passport holder I didn't. I arrived at the airport and that was it. I chose to obtain an Aussie passport after two years, but at no point was I screened.

    Now they do a criminal record check, which seems eminently sensible to me.

    I don't want quite as open a door as the EU offers.

    Among the nations in question I would offer:

    1) two year residence visa upon arrival subject to a clean criminal record check.

    2) permanent residence subject to a permanent or 5 year + job offer in a field in which the applicant has recognised university or trade qualifications, plus a clean criminal record check.

    It needs to be a privilege earned by a clean record, not a right.

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    If the UK has the right to close its borders with the EU then so can Spain with Gibraltar. No amount of gunboats is going to change that.

    UK is going to rearm after Brexit? Is that what the supposed 340 millions a week are going to be spent on, instead of the NHS?

    This isn't 2010 anymore. Spain's doing fine.
    Rearmament is mainly about restoring an industrial base, a high technology sector and optimal employment.

    Algeciras is economically torpedoed without an open border with Gibraltar. Gunboats are just a gesture to underscore that.

    But you obtain a good settlement without bargaining chips.

  16. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Again, actually no.

    I turned up on the Sunday and started work as a doctor (on my Kiwi passport) as soon as I was registered to practice.

    Those Chinese immigrants have to apply for Permanent Residence in Australia and pass Boris' fabled Points Test.

    As a Kiwi passport holder I didn't. I arrived at the airport and that was it. I chose to obtain an Aussie passport after two years, but at no point was I screened.

    Now they do a criminal record check, which seems eminently sensible to me.

    I don't want quite as open a door as the EU offers.

    Among the nations in question I would offer:

    1) two year residence visa upon arrival subject to a clean criminal record check.

    2) permanent residence subject to a permanent or 5 year + job offer in a field in which the applicant has recognised university or trade qualifications, plus a clean criminal record check.

    It needs to be a privilege earned by a clean record, not a right.
    Again, this about the immigration visa. Your kiwi passport afforded you that without screening. It didn't afford you citizenship. You got your citizenship through the same process as anyone else.

    Besides, your point was that ''I am not an expat because Australia and UK are so close''. So why talk about the privileges of a kiwi passport. What's the process for an englishman without a kiwi passport OR alternatively what did you have to do to immigrate to NZ? Would you agree that you were an expat when you moved from UK to NZ?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  17. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Rearmament is mainly about restoring an industrial base, a high technology sector and optimal employment.

    Algeciras is economically torpedoed without an open border with Gibraltar. Gunboats are just a gesture to underscore that.

    But you obtain a good settlement without bargaining chips.
    So the point of rearming is about creating jobs? Have you heard of the broken window fallacy?

    Yes, Spain, with a GDP of 1,2 trillion dollars cares about what happens to the town of Algeciras with 100k people and a GDP of 2 billion dollars?

    Who obtains a good settlement without bargaining chips?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  18. #578
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    Coming back on the Gibraltar point, the city is a fiscal haven which works against Spanish interests. The port is a direct competitor to Algericas. The decline of Gibraltar can only be beneficial to Spain. All they gain from it is the cross-border workers who are going to disappear anyways after Brexit. It's a no-brainer that Spain should close its borders with Gibraltar and economically blockade it as much as possible.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  19. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Leaving the EU needs to be backed up by strength. If the Spanish seek to close the border, we need to have the strength to resolve such crises by traditional gunboat diplomacy.

    They are a country with such a soft underbelly that they have 50% unemployment in the Under-30 age range. We need to be strong enough to win disputes with such failed states.
    The UK engaging in gunboat diplomacy with Spain? A co-member of NATO?

    Yes, I can just see a stand-off between British and Spanish warships facing each other.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  20. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    So the point of rearming is about creating jobs? Have you heard of the broken window fallacy?

    Yes, Spain, with a GDP of 1,2 trillion dollars cares about what happens to the town of Algeciras with 100k people and a GDP of 2 billion dollars?

    Who obtains a good settlement without bargaining chips?
    Somehow I lost the word "can't" but obviously your point is what I was trying to say!

    You need bargaining chips.

  21. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Somehow I lost the word "can't" but obviously your point is what I was trying to say!

    You need bargaining chips.
    And the UK has zero bargaining chips. While Spain has the authority to blockade Gibraltar and the UK can't do zilch about it.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  22. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The UK engaging in gunboat diplomacy with Spain? A co-member of NATO?

    Yes, I can just see a stand-off between British and Spanish warships facing each other.
    Gunboat diplomacy doesn't mean war.

    You will note there have been countless incursions of Spanish ships into Gibraltarian waters this year.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...creases-7-year

    My point is that there needs to be a robust response. Not a war, not shooting.

    Consider the situation with the Indonesians allowing thousands of rickety boats to carry asylum seekers from their shores to Australia. We now actually tow those boats back to Indonesia. At first people thought there would be a diplomatic incident, but they quickly realized that they could no longer take liberties and allow that practice.

    The Falklands Conflict largely occurred because we withdrew the Endurance and the Argentinians thought that we were not committed to the Falklands and South Georgia.

    We just need to ensure that when we leave the EU we bolster the Gibraltar garrison and keep ships in port there.

    We may also need to do the equivalent with Akrotiri in Cyprus.

    I want to show Spain the hand of friendship. But make clear that if they reject it and effectively blockade us, they will pay a heavy price.

  23. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    And the UK has zero bargaining chips. While Spain has the authority to blockade Gibraltar and the UK can't do zilch about it.
    And you want to stay in bed with these people?

    Spain is practically a failed state. Two months ago Youth Unemployment was at 43.6%.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    British tourism makes a vast contribution to their economy. There would be a huge economic price for them to pay if they blockaded Gibraltar, and they know it.

  24. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    And what's that price?
    Numbers of foreign tourists visiting Spain in 2015

    1 United Kingdom 12,790,998 - contributing 5 % of Spanish GDP
    2 France 9,190,102
    3 Germany 8,270,251
    4 Italy 3,167,105
    5 Netherlands 2,364,709


    Over 80% of the French tourists are from neighbouring areas, spend less than 48 hours in the country, and spend less money.
    Last edited by Junaids; 22nd December 2016 at 22:44.

  25. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And you want to stay in bed with these people?

    Spain is practically a failed state. Two months ago Youth Unemployment was at 43.6%.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-eu-countries/

    British tourism makes a vast contribution to their economy. There would be a huge economic price for them to pay if they blockaded Gibraltar, and they know it.
    I see you have changed your tune. No more gunboats?

    And France has 20% youth unemployment. Doesn't prevent them from kicking UK's as* economically. Some countries don't rely on temporary contracts to boost employment numbers. Spanish economy is doing well.
    Last edited by endymion248; 22nd December 2016 at 22:47.

  26. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Numbers of foreign tourists visiting Spain in 2015

    1 United Kingdom 12,790,998 - contributing 5 % of Spanish GDP
    2 France 9,190,102
    3 Germany 8,270,251
    4 Italy 3,167,105
    5 Netherlands 2,364,709


    Over 80% of the French tourists are from neighbouring areas, spend less than 48 hours in the country, and spend less money.
    True it wouldn't be good for Spanish economy if they didn't have English retirees and tourists. Never denied that. But you were going in another direction with your gunboats. Glad you saw the light that the U.K. would be in a losing position if it tried to use military power against Spain.

  27. #587
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    @endymion248

    You and I have very different views on Europe.

    I think that cultural links matter. Not only do I believe that it is egregious that Britain is not allowed free trade and movement with Australia, I think it is ludicrous that France is prohibited the same with Quebec.

    I think that the nations of southern and eastern Europe are incredibly lucky to be allowed anywhere near this club.

    I will be quite frank here.

    Most British, German or Dutch people don't object to the composition of EU until the admission of Spain and Portugal in 1986, but that is as far as we are happy for it to go.

    The admission of the Eastern European states and the invention of "Freedom of Movement" only served two purposes, neither of which any western European public would have supported if asked.

    One was to help big business by creating a giant vat of cheap labour to compete with the USA. But that had a massive price in terms of western European youth and older adult unemployment.

    The other was the George Soros dream of making Eastern Europe Communism-resistant by encouraging mass migration to western Europe and the sending of remittances back East. There is no mention of Freedom of Movement prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain and Soros lobbying for it to protect countries like Hungary from a Return to Communism.

    Humans are easily rallied into nationalism. Pakistan is quite a good example of a country which has completely bungled its independence, from managing to lose half its land and population to having a catastrophic quality of life for most of its population. Yet virtually no Pakistani would choose to return to being part of All India.

    I realize that a European elite seeks ever closer integration, but I don't think that people in northern and western Europe support this at all.

    The only Europeans who do support it are poorer Eastern European EU citizens who see an opportunity for economic migration. But it is fascinating that they themselves want to shut the door on Croatia and Serbia and Albania and Bosnia and especially on Turkey.

  28. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    The post-truth aspect is that the four freedoms are a fundamental aspect of the common market for decades. Yet you are saying that Eu invented them after Brexit.
    I actually contest this.

    I'm not saying that the Four Freedoms were invented after Brexit. But they were certainly invented after the Maastricht Treaty of 1992.

    You may wonder how I know this and why I am so strong in my views now.

    Well, I didn't particularly enjoy medical school in London, and my girlfriend was at university in Cambridge. As I have mentioned, I am bilingual in French, and I considered switching to the Civil Service Fast Track program with a view to a diplomatic or EEC career. (The EU was only invented by Masstricht in 1992). I did a lot of research in preparation for an interview.

    I got as far as an introductory talk by the government whip Tristan Garel-Jones, but concluded that the financial rewards were a lot less attractive than medicine.

    I can assure you, Freedom of Movement did not exist and neither did the other supposedly sacrosanct "freedoms".

    There has been quite a conjuring act by EU mandarins to try to mislead people into thinking that these are ancient tenets of the union. They just aren't - they are a latter day add-on, and a latter day add-on which probably makes the EU certain to fall apart. They are a suicide note in terms of political viability.

    I doubt that any of us on this board who are British (or British-Pakistani) are Ukippers who want the EU to be destroyed rather than reforming itself. I would take a reduced, reformed EU every time.

    But the EU has hurtled towards extinction by making bad decisions. And it's a terrible decision for countries whose working classes and lower middle-classes are struggling to allow influxes of lower paid workers from poorer countries.

    The USA gets away with it because it has no commitment to long-term unemployment benefits or healthcare for unemployed Americans. But we Europeans have different values, and so as a country we pay for the unemployed in Burnley or Gateshead.
    Last edited by Junaids; 22nd December 2016 at 23:55.

  29. #589
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @endymion248

    You and I have very different views on Europe.

    I think that cultural links matter. Not only do I believe that it is egregious that Britain is not allowed free trade and movement with Australia, I think it is ludicrous that France is prohibited the same with Quebec.

    I think that the nations of southern and eastern Europe are incredibly lucky to be allowed anywhere near this club.

    I will be quite frank here.

    Most British, German or Dutch people don't object to the composition of EU until the admission of Spain and Portugal in 1986, but that is as far as we are happy for it to go.

    The admission of the Eastern European states and the invention of "Freedom of Movement" only served two purposes, neither of which any western European public would have supported if asked.

    One was to help big business by creating a giant vat of cheap labour to compete with the USA. But that had a massive price in terms of western European youth and older adult unemployment.

    The other was the George Soros dream of making Eastern Europe Communism-resistant by encouraging mass migration to western Europe and the sending of remittances back East. There is no mention of Freedom of Movement prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain and Soros lobbying for it to protect countries like Hungary from a Return to Communism.

    Humans are easily rallied into nationalism. Pakistan is quite a good example of a country which has completely bungled its independence, from managing to lose half its land and population to having a catastrophic quality of life for most of its population. Yet virtually no Pakistani would choose to return to being part of All India.

    I realize that a European elite seeks ever closer integration, but I don't think that people in northern and western Europe support this at all.

    The only Europeans who do support it are poorer Eastern European EU citizens who see an opportunity for economic migration. But it is fascinating that they themselves want to shut the door on Croatia and Serbia and Albania and Bosnia and especially on Turkey.
    I never thought that I can change your opinion. You are a Brexit voter and an expat Australian. It's pretty much as far to Europe as we can get. My only aim here is to clear certain misconceptions around the common market and free trade deals. For example, I am not going to argue with the ideological parts of your post but I will clear the misconception that Eastern Europeans are trying to close the door on Croatia behind them. The reason for that being that Croatia is already part of EU and the single market only with rights to work anywhere in the EU already. You need to update your information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    One was to help big business by creating a giant vat of cheap labour to compete with the USA. But that had a massive price in terms of western European youth and older adult unemployment.
    Doc, I think you should stick to medicine and leave economics to economists. Your view on EU labor mobility is extremely superficial.

    While it may be "inconvenient" for some, but the vast majority of people who move from one EU country to another do so in order to work. They don’t do it in order to claim benefits. These workers are in fact of considerable benefit to the economies, and to the welfare systems, of the receiving countries.

    For all countries with an ageing population, like the UK, the availability of migrant workforce is an asset.

    These workers can help addressing skills shortages and labour market bottlenecks. They contribute to macroeconomic demand and to government revenues, so they can indeed help to create more jobs in the host country. They can also help to reduce the tax burden on the domestic population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HussainRx8 View Post
    Doc, I think you should stick to medicine and leave economics to economists. Your view on EU labor mobility is extremely superficial.

    While it may be "inconvenient" for some, but the vast majority of people who move from one EU country to another do so in order to work. They don’t do it in order to claim benefits. These workers are in fact of considerable benefit to the economies, and to the welfare systems, of the receiving countries.

    For all countries with an ageing population, like the UK, the availability of migrant workforce is an asset.

    These workers can help addressing skills shortages and labour market bottlenecks. They contribute to macroeconomic demand and to government revenues, so they can indeed help to create more jobs in the host country. They can also help to reduce the tax burden on the domestic population.
    I don't think you read my post.

    I didn't say the economic migrants are benefits scroungers. Not at all.

    I said that they displace Western European natives from employment, and that the country has to pay THEIR unemployment benefits, healthcare etc.

    Do you think any Western European country would accept such economic migration if its citizens were consulted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I don't think you read my post.

    I didn't say the economic migrants are benefits scroungers. Not at all.

    I said that they displace Western European natives from employment, and that the country has to pay THEIR unemployment benefits, healthcare etc.

    Do you think any Western European country would accept such economic migration if its citizens were consulted?

    Doc, I think my post was very clear on the overall advantages of EU labour mobility. But let me also say that although these advantages apply at the macro level, one can always find specific sectors or geographic areas where the general rules about the overall gains do not apply and where the costs or disadvantages concentrate.

    So, they may end up displacing some of the Western European natives. But the positive spillovers clearly exceed the cost of having them. As I mentioned in my previous post, they contribute to macroeconomic demand and to government revenues, so they can indeed help to create more jobs in the host country.

    For example, a peer-reviewed study estimates that post-enlargement mobility flows over the period 2004 to 2009 have increased the GDP of the EU-15 countries by around 1%, with higher figures in the major countries of destination, such as Ireland, the UK, Spain and Italy.

    Why shouldn't the destination country pay for their welfare? They have high participation rates in the labor market. They pay more in taxes and social security contributions than they receive in benefits.

    With respect to what the Western Europeans citizens think. At the risk of sounding callous, I don't really care what the citizens think. They have no expertise in labor economics or demography. On medicine, I imagine you won't take the view of a non-doctor seriously.

    By the way, for UK, public debt would be much higher in the future without immigration because of the ageing population. Do people in the UK really want to pay higher taxes instead of immigration?

    As someone who himself moved to Australia, I hope the moral ambiguity of opposing people moving from one EU country to another is not lost on you.
    Last edited by HussainRx8; 23rd December 2016 at 02:14.

  33. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by HussainRx8 View Post
    So, they may end up displacing some of the Western European natives. But the positive spillovers clearly exceed the cost of having them.

    With respect to what the Western Europeans citizens think. At the risk of sounding callous, I don't really care what the citizens think. They have no expertise in labor economics or demography.
    I really enjoyed your post, but I don't think you understand democracy.

    The ONLY thing which matters is what the Western European citizens think.

    It is the fact that "experts" have imposed mass economic immigration upon their countries which will eventually lead to the end of the EU. And rather like 1945-1948, when we saw the ethnic cleansing of Germans out of Czechoslovakia and Polish West Prussia and Soviet East Prussia, we will end up with mass population transfers eventually.

    The point of democracy rather than rule by Sir Humphrey's Bureaucrats (or Eurocrats) is that the people decide, not the experts.

    As for taxation, we see from Scotland and the rest of northern Europe that actually YES, people will happily accept higher taxes in return for better services and pensions and fuller employment. People in London and the southeast generally won't, but people elsewhere overwhelmingly will.

    The fundamental flaw with your argument is that the people who are entitled to decide don't want it, and as soon as the British people were asked they said No. As the French and the Dutch did, only to have their governments do it anyway.

    Lastly, I moved to Australia as someone of the same culture in line with immigration laws which have always facilitated the arrival of New Zealanders and which previously did so with British arrivals.

    Those laws retain the support of the population. When asked, a majority of Aussies have always told pollsters that they would happily allow reciprocal movement rights between the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I really enjoyed your post, but I don't think you understand democracy.

    The ONLY thing which matters is what the Western European citizens think.

    It is the fact that "experts" have imposed mass economic immigration upon their countries which will eventually lead to the end of the EU. And rather like 1945-1948, when we saw the ethnic cleansing of Germans out of Czechoslovakia and Polish West Prussia and Soviet East Prussia, we will end up with mass population transfers eventually.

    The point of democracy rather than rule by Sir Humphrey's Bureaucrats (or Eurocrats) is that the people decide, not the experts.

    As for taxation, we see from Scotland and the rest of northern Europe that actually YES, people will happily accept higher taxes in return for better services and pensions and fuller employment. People in London and the southeast generally won't, but people elsewhere overwhelmingly will.

    The fundamental flaw with your argument is that the people who are entitled to decide don't want it, and as soon as the British people were asked they said No. As the French and the Dutch did, only to have their governments do it anyway.

    Lastly, I moved to Australia as someone of the same culture in line with immigration laws which have always facilitated the arrival of New Zealanders and which previously did so with British arrivals.

    Those laws retain the support of the population. When asked, a majority of Aussies have always told pollsters that they would happily allow reciprocal movement rights between the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.
    I'm not dismissing your concerns, in fact I acknowledge them. But your view on it is too glib and simple minded (I hope I'm not out of line). Are there people who become dislocated because of labor mobility? Of course.

    We need to look after them. But ending movement of labor is extremely misguided. It will end up rolling back the gains from labor mobility (1% of GDP is a significant amount, $30bn for UK). We need to work on better policies that provide quality employment and training services to assist dislocated workers in finding and qualifying for meaningful employment.

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    Also, I never undermined democracy. There are people who are against vaccines too. I'm sure you disagree with them but allow them the liberty to have their view. My perspective is not too different. Are most people against EU labor mobility? Probably. But it has no bearing on expert analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HussainRx8 View Post
    Also, I never undermined democracy. There are people who are against vaccines too. I'm sure you disagree with them but allow them the liberty to have their view. My perspective is not too different. Are most people against EU labor mobility? Probably. But it has no bearing on expert analysis.
    Who says that most people in EU are against labout mobility? The British live in their own echo chamber, don't be fooled to think that it applies to all of Europe. A simple example is that everyone in England thinks the euro is a disaster while every poll suggests that people in Eurozone countries want to keep it.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  37. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Who says that most people in EU are against labout mobility? The British live in their own echo chamber, don't be fooled to think that it applies to all of Europe. A simple example is that everyone in England thinks the euro is a disaster while every poll suggests that people in Eurozone countries want to keep it.
    I have visited three other Western European countries this year.

    All three valued Western European mobility more than the British, I freely admit.

    All three had people opposed to the right of Eastern Europeans to move in as economic migrants. I didn't meet anyone in favour of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Who says that most people in EU are against labout mobility? The British live in their own echo chamber, don't be fooled to think that it applies to all of Europe. A simple example is that everyone in England thinks the euro is a disaster while every poll suggests that people in Eurozone countries want to keep it.
    Yes, I meant the British. They can't have it both ways. Either allow labor mobility, or say adious to free trade and frictionless capital mobility. Globalization includes ALL the factors of production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HussainRx8 View Post
    Yes, I meant the British. They can't have it both ways. Either allow labor mobility, or say adious to free trade and frictionless capital mobility. Globalization includes ALL the factors of production.
    True. Which is why the 4 freedoms are not negociable, it doesn't make any sense to have capital mobility and free trade if workers can't move.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    True. Which is why the 4 freedoms are not negociable, it doesn't make any sense to have capital mobility and free trade if workers can't move.
    How so?

    We signed up to the European Economic Community. Nothing more, nothing less. Certainly no "Four Freedoms".

    Now the people in charge are moving the goalposts. But we didn't sign up for a federal superstate.

    And I don't care whether the others want it. Why should we be persecuted, why should we face economic instability, because they want to turn it into something new?

    Imagine that you are a successful 25 year old Muslim and you buy an expensive house on a golf course. And you pay a £250,000 initiation fee to join the club.

    Twenty years later, you are told that the other members, mainly new ones, have voted to turn it into a swingers' club. Do you just go along with the flow because the majority of the club has decided to change what it is? Does your wife get a say in this?

    Members of a club should not have to suffer just because other members want to turn it into something else.
    Last edited by Junaids; 23rd December 2016 at 07:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    How so?

    We signed up to the European Economic Community. Nothing more, nothing less. Certainly no "Four Freedoms".

    Now the people in charge are moving the goalposts. But we didn't sign up for a federal superstate.

    And I don't care whether the others want it. Why should we be persecuted, why should we face economic instability, because they want to turn it into something new?

    Imagine that you are a successful 25 year old Muslim and you buy an expensive house on a golf course. And you pay a £250,000 initiation fee to join the club.

    Twenty years later, you are told that the other members, mainly new ones, have voted to turn it into a swingers' club. Do you just go along with the flow because the majority of the club has decided to change what it is? Does your wife get a say in this?

    Members of a club should not have to suffer just because other members want to turn it into something else.
    A single market by definition has the 4 freedoms. The fact that the EU would be a single market was included in the 1957 treaty of Rome, long before you joined. We have gone over all this already.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    PM May to make a key Brexit speech today.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-market-speech







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    Britain has taken a decisive step towards leaving the European Union after MPs overwhelmingly gave Theresa May their backing to trigger the Article 50 exit clause.

    In an historic moment – after almost 20 hours of debate - the Commons voted by 498 votes to 114 for the legislation to clear its first stage, to raucous cheers from ecstatic Conservative MPs.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7558256.html

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    Lords pass landmark Brexit bill following MP's vote; path now clear for government to trigger Article 50 and the UK's exit from the EU
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...rendum-demand/

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    Theresa May will trigger article 50, the formal mechanism for starting negotiations for Britain to leave the European Union, on Wednesday 29 March, the prime minister’s spokesman has confirmed.
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...50-on-29-march

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    Well we're taking the plunge.

    Enjoyed the BBC special Andrew Neil did with PM May and all the party leaders tonight, was a substantive primetime political programme that we don't get enough of.

    There's too much speculation at the moment, most notably about this £50bn EU "divorce" settlement. Where has this figure come from ? How can anyone guarantee the outcomes of negotiations that haven't even begun yet ?

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    I am utterly sickened by the EU's decision to give Spain a veto on Gibraltar. Revolted.

    It's like having divorce negotiations in which the husband demands a right to rape his five year old daughter.

    98.97% of Gibraltarians voted in the last referendum for exclusively British sovereignty.

    Just as I started having second thoughts about Brexit, the EU shows that we have been in bed with a monster.

    I really don't have the words to express how appalled I am.

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    Of course in an act of stunning hypocrisy, Spain has no intention of exiting Ceuta and Melilla in Morocco.

    If the EU adopts the position of ignoring the democratic wishes of the Gibraltarians, perhaps we need to start supporting Catalonian and Basque independence. I've made clear my belief that Scotland is going anyway sooner rather than later.

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    With a weak government without a majority that's hanging onto power thanks to the Orangemen, the task of Brexit has become harder.

    Already David Davis has conceded the EU's timetable that the divorce bill must be negotiated first.

    It doesn't look like the Government is going to reverse its promise to withdraw from the single market and customs union in light of the election result. But compromises will have to be made as the DUP are advocates for a softer Brexit and don't want to see a hard border with the ROI.

    It may be best to have a transitional deal, whereby we stay in the EEA for a number of years, in place to reduce economic uncertainty given the scale and complexity of the negotiations. It seems however David Davis and Philip Hammond are at loggerheads on this issue, with Downing St distancing themselves from Davis's comment saying we'll have left both the single market and customs union by March 2019 !

    And frankly, there are many who are fed up of hearing about Brexit at the expense of other pressing domestic issues.

    What are the thoughts of UK PPers ? @Robert @Junaids @Cpt_Rishwat @s28 @James @Adil_94 @Yossarian @immy_69 @90MPH

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    Also came across this Roy Jenkins-Tony Benn debate from the 1975 Referendum.



    A great, civilised and substantive debate between two major political figures of their time, but you can't help but laugh at the fact we're still hearing the same arguments today about sovereignty, trade and jobs.

    When will we be finally done with this Europe issue ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Also came across this Roy Jenkins-Tony Benn debate from the 1975 Referendum.



    A great, civilised and substantive debate between two major political figures of their time, but you can't help but laugh at the fact we're still hearing the same arguments today about sovereignty, trade and jobs.

    When will we be finally done with this Europe issue ?
    Wow! Really surprised to see Tony Benn supporting what today would be a 'Leave' campaign. Farage and Co really polluted the debate with their immigration rhetoric otherwise having watched this video I would have voted leave. Tony Benn was usually right on most issues.

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    The thing is everyone is assuming that people like David Davis and other hardcore brexiteers are bothered if the government wins the final Brexit vote in parliament or not. I don't think they are.

    At the end of this all we're going to have the Brexit t&c's voted on by parliament however if it's voted down we end up with no deal at all - ie the most extreme brexitl imaginable.

    Parliament either accepts whatever deal David Davis and his chums bring back from the EU or they don't and we fall out of the EU with a thump. What a choice to have!!



    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    With a weak government without a majority that's hanging onto power thanks to the Orangemen, the task of Brexit has become harder.

    Already David Davis has conceded the EU's timetable that the divorce bill must be negotiated first.

    It doesn't look like the Government is going to reverse its promise to withdraw from the single market and customs union in light of the election result. But compromises will have to be made as the DUP are advocates for a softer Brexit and don't want to see a hard border with the ROI.

    It may be best to have a transitional deal, whereby we stay in the EEA for a number of years, in place to reduce economic uncertainty given the scale and complexity of the negotiations. It seems however David Davis and Philip Hammond are at loggerheads on this issue, with Downing St distancing themselves from Davis's comment saying we'll have left both the single market and customs union by March 2019 !

    And frankly, there are many who are fed up of hearing about Brexit at the expense of other pressing domestic issues.

    What are the thoughts of UK PPers ? @Robert @Junaids @Cpt_Rishwat @s28 @James @Adil_94 @Yossarian @immy_69 @90MPH

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    /\/\/\

    Hence we have moves like this because EU-philes like Chuka know exactly what voting down the government Brexit deal means.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7815271.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    The thing is everyone is assuming that people like David Davis and other hardcore brexiteers are bothered if the government wins the final Brexit vote in parliament or not. I don't think they are.

    At the end of this all we're going to have the Brexit t&c's voted on by parliament however if it's voted down we end up with no deal at all - ie the most extreme brexitl imaginable.

    Parliament either accepts whatever deal David Davis and his chums bring back from the EU or they don't and we fall out of the EU with a thump. What a choice to have!!
    Still a long way from even the prospect of a deal in sight. These negotiations are going at an anaemic pace - probably because the Cabinet itself is divided on the issues and cannot agree on a collective position.

    Philip Hammond is clearly getting briefed against by the hardline Brexiteers in the Cabinet. Remember that "Hammond thinks public sector workers are overpaid" remark ? Pure House of Cards.

    Liam Fox has demanded strict limits on any transitional deal that Hammond is pushing for, and wants to be able to make trade deals with non-EU countries within that period. But Hammond has got the Civil Service to produce papers that shows the economic gain of Fox's plan would not outweigh the costs of leaving the EU Customs Union.

    Theresa May has no authority over this Cabinet that's leaking like a sieve. She'd have sacked Hammond had she won a majority but can't as she is so weakened after the election ! Whilst the hardline Leavers threatened to resign if she softens her stance on Brexit !

  56. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Still a long way from even the prospect of a deal in sight. These negotiations are going at an anaemic pace - probably because the Cabinet itself is divided on the issues and cannot agree on a collective position.

    Philip Hammond is clearly getting briefed against by the hardline Brexiteers in the Cabinet. Remember that "Hammond thinks public sector workers are overpaid" remark ? Pure House of Cards.

    Liam Fox has demanded strict limits on any transitional deal that Hammond is pushing for, and wants to be able to make trade deals with non-EU countries within that period. But Hammond has got the Civil Service to produce papers that shows the economic gain of Fox's plan would not outweigh the costs of leaving the EU Customs Union.

    Theresa May has no authority over this Cabinet that's leaking like a sieve. She'd have sacked Hammond had she won a majority but can't as she is so weakened after the election ! Whilst the hardline Leavers threatened to resign if she softens her stance on Brexit !
    Yep the government are a complete mess on brexit - the sad thing is they are able to get away with it because Labour are a mess on brexit too.

    Brexit: Labour divisions emerge once more over EU single market and customs union membership

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7856806.html

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