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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Hooliganism has been described as 'the English disease' but you could add laziness, entitlement and arrogance if you really wanted to. It's got nothing to do with race or religion either. Black, white brown or other English born residents of non-indiginous backgrounds tend to display all of these traits as well.
    A tad generalised but probably true.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Nevertheless a born Ennglish person should back his/herself at a job interview against someone who does not speak English so well.

    Fact is that the Poles have the work ethic - they turn up on time, don't mouth off or slack off, and don't go off sick if they feel a bit tired or sad - so employers will give them the job instead of the born English.
    I own a business, I hire people because I need them to make more money for me. I expect them to bring in more money than I spent on them. I need to make money so I can buy myself a new boat, private jet, and nice cars so I can impress girls that are half my age. This is my motive and passion. I live for this, this is why I always look to expand my empire. Now explain why would I not hire someone that will bring in more profit and instead hire a guy that is lazy because he is my origin ? What do I have to gain ? Moreover, how is that even fair ? We are not talking about illegal immigrants or exploiting child labourers. We are talking about equally qualified, legal workers.

  3. #483
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  4. #484
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  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Hooliganism has been described as 'the English disease' but you could add laziness, entitlement and arrogance if you really wanted to. It's got nothing to do with race or religion either. Black, white brown or other English born residents of non-indiginous backgrounds tend to display all of these traits as well.
    there is merit to your point here - the reason for this is the repeated failings of the labour government in addressing the generous welfare system that acts like a Drug killing any and all motivation to feed for oneself......

    Some measures that we need to address to wean people off the Drug.

    NHS should not be free at point of service.
    People should NOT have the right to buy a council house
    You get JSA only if you have had a job for 5 years and put in the system
    You get access to benefits if you put in for 5 years else not.
    Child benefit for 2 kids provided they are in THIS Country.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    there is merit to your point here - the reason for this is the repeated failings of the labour government in addressing the generous welfare system that acts like a Drug killing any and all motivation to feed for oneself......

    Some measures that we need to address to wean people off the Drug.

    NHS should not be free at point of service.
    People should NOT have the right to buy a council house
    You get JSA only if you have had a job for 5 years and put in the system
    You get access to benefits if you put in for 5 years else not.
    Child benefit for 2 kids provided they are in THIS Country.
    Kind of embarrassed to admit this, but till the Brexit vote got big I didn't know who the guy in your profile pic was. For the past 2-3 months I thought he was some guy impersonating Donald Trump.

    Recently learnt he is one of the British candidates for PM

    But it is very intriguing. Has an uncanny resemblance to Trump appearance wise, and has the same blunt persona with similar views as him.
    Last edited by Suleiman; 29th June 2016 at 08:10.


    Swing it like Akram, whack it like Afridi, live it like Inti.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    NHS should not be free at point of service.
    So what's your next proposal? Shoot the elderly? let the sick and disabled die? Same fate for the young if they become ill and parents can't afford medical care ... survival of the fittest and all that?
    Plus, evict the unemployed if they live in council houses and tell them to go live in the streets? But no, wait, better to shoot them ... can't have unemployed & homeless people sleeping on pavements and in doorways, not good for attracting rich tourists and property speculators?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    So what's your next proposal? Shoot the elderly? let the sick and disabled die? Same fate for the young if they become ill and parents can't afford medical care ... survival of the fittest and all that?
    Plus, evict the unemployed if they live in council houses and tell them to go live in the streets? But no, wait, better to shoot them ... can't have unemployed & homeless people sleeping on pavements and in doorways, not good for attracting rich tourists and property speculators?
    The welfare system is intended to help the needy, Elderly & Disabled certainly fall into that category and that is money well spent. Already covered people that are unemployed in my previous post (I haven't conjured up these "suggestions" - some of these are have been in place in many European countries for many decades).

    I reject my tax being used to fund parasites that are work shy - People need to grow a pair & live in the real world - far too dependant on my tax - about time it stopped.

    If any party had policies to address this then they would most certainly get my vote - even if it was labour.
    Last edited by Spookiewookie; 29th June 2016 at 08:48.

  9. #489
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    Interesting tweets from the Politico journalist Ben Judah. What a lousy deal we're going to get.

    "Merkel and Brussels have outright already refused an EEA+ agreement that gives UK migration control, passporting and single market access.

    What is passporting? All banks registered in UK have a "passport" that allows them to do business with whole EU. The City depends on it.

    Base case is Berlin and Brussels plan to insist on an EEA- (i.e. a worse deal than Norway) that excludes passporting, migration controls.

    This would allow services to continue to have access to the single market. But not financial services. Mass migration continues."

  10. #490
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    Merkel says "no rights without obligations".

    Donald Tusk insists no access to the single market without freedom of movement.

    This post-Brexit liberation is going well !

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Interesting tweets from the Politico journalist Ben Judah. What a lousy deal we're going to get.

    "Merkel and Brussels have outright already refused an EEA+ agreement that gives UK migration control, passporting and single market access.



    What is passporting? All banks registered in UK have a "passport" that allows them to do business with whole EU. The City depends on it.

    Base case is Berlin and Brussels plan to insist on an EEA- (i.e. a worse deal than Norway) that excludes passporting, migration controls.

    This would allow services to continue to have access to the single market. But not financial services. Mass migration continues."

    we need the passporting desperatley. If not thousands of jobs will be on the line.

    But but lets not worry about what experts think. Lets keep calm and carry on being a bunch of racists. That will make us feel better!
    Last edited by Shayan; 29th June 2016 at 15:40.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    we need the passporting desperatley. If not thousands of jobs will be on the line.

    But but lets not worry about what experts think. Lets keep calm and carry on being a bunch of racists. That will make us feel better!
    No chance of passporting happening without allowing migration within EU and UK paying EU fees (which kind of fails the whole exit argument- on migration and not contributing to EU budget) and plus why would EU allow passporting to UK when its not even in the EU.

    Same with the Euro denominated trades, even though London is not in the Euro zone, it is the hub of Euro trades and Frankfurt has been eyeing that market for a few years now.
    Last edited by Shayan; 29th June 2016 at 15:42.

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    Perhaps worthwhile to drag out the invoking of Article 50 so as to get closer to the German & French elections....That should get those two power houses to be more compliant.

    These anti-democratic bureaucratic thugs are in self preservation mode and don't care about the consequences - let alone to britain but to the countries that they represent.

    Atleast their true colours are on display for all to see.

  14. #494
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    Tick Tock....

    MERKEL'S WORST NIGHTMARE: Germany calls for Referendum as 'people want to be free of EU'




    BELEAGUERED Angela Merkel is facing calls for a referendum to free German people of "EU slavery" in the wake of Britain's sensational decision to cut ties with Brussels.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...pean-union/amp

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    Perhaps worthwhile to drag out the invoking of Article 50 so as to get closer to the German & French elections....That should get those two power houses to be more compliant.

    These anti-democratic bureaucratic thugs are in self preservation mode and don't care about the consequences - let alone to britain but to the countries that they represent.

    Atleast their true colours are on display for all to see.
    I couldn't resist....

    All 27 countries agreed to not give UK any deal unless there is freedom of movement. All 27 countries agreed, how is that undemocratic? Why should there be anything special for one country and something different for the other 27? Infact that would be very undemocratic. This was all predicted and dismissed as fear mongering. EU needs some changes, but calling and whining about a decision that is agreed by all its member states and calling it undemocratic is hilarious. Atleast they aren't duplicitous like the Leave campaign, which the latest news was that they are removing all claims/content from their webpages. Talk about being corrupt, eh?

    Btw, have you seen the leaked e-mail today, about your blonde hero? Looks like we might get a PM none of us voted for, democracy eh?
    Last edited by Pakpak; 29th June 2016 at 22:28.

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    MERKEL'S WORST NIGHTMARE: Germany calls for Referendum as 'people want to be free of EU'




    BELEAGUERED Angela Merkel is facing calls for a referendum to free German people of "EU slavery" in the wake of Britain's sensational decision to cut ties with Brussels.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...pean-union/amp
    Nice tabloid garbage. I have 2 very good German mates, the anti-Euro hysteria is mainly in UK. In their country they'd easily win the Remain vote. Even in a anti-EU nation as UK it went very very close.

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    Oh wait......that was short-lived.....what happened to Armageddon?



    Global stock markets rally as Brexit fears abate

    The FTSE 100 has surged through the level it closed at last Thursday, recovering all of the ground it had lost in the wake of the Brexit vote.

    The pound also strengthened against the dollar and euro, while Wall Street's rally continued for a second day.
    Some investors say last week's sell-off was overdone, while others are betting on central banks to rescue the global economy if needed with more stimulus.

    "It never was the end of the world," said strategist Jeff Weniger.
    The senior portfolio strategist at BMO Private Bank in Chicago. said: "To have these kinds of reactions was ridiculous."

    The FTSE 100 share index closed up 3.6% at 6,360.1 after a flurry of last-minute trading.


    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36660133
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 29th June 2016 at 23:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Nice tabloid garbage. I have 2 very good German mates, the anti-Euro hysteria is mainly in UK. In their country they'd easily win the Remain vote. Even in a anti-EU nation as UK it went very very close.
    I have immediate family in Germany that says otherwise, the migrant crisis was the tipping point. Merkel is on a ticker....we can play hard too...interesting times ahead

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    I have immediate family in Germany that says otherwise, the migrant crisis was the tipping point. Merkel is on a ticker....we can play hard too...interesting times ahead
    Yeah, you're a Pakistani too, right?

    No country other than UK(maybe Spain/Italy) would leave. No chance of Germany. I know actual Germans who say otherwise, I could even link you to another forum (if it was allowed here, which its not) where England is being laughed at by Germans and other Europeans for the sheer amount of stupidity, as I said even in UK it was very very close.

    You can play hard, sure. But its UK begging for a good deal, not the EU. Infact the EU has been very blunt since the vote, ALL 27 countries while the UK doesn't have any sort of plan. If it was the other way around then EU would have given the UK the deal without any conditions. How you think a unanimous 27 nation alliance is somehow going to be played around in some sort of game by a single country is beyond any kind of logic and is utter arrogance. If the UK did not need any sort of deal and has so much leverage then it could simply invoke Article 50 and just leave and forego any deals, after all it'll be to the EU's detriment, right? Unbelievable. The country's currency has collapsed, the two big parties are in disarray, even the leave politicans are saying a recession won't be far, the EU is not balking, the xenophobia and racism is out of control and this guy wants to play hard ball. Even the Sun (THE SUN!!) had an article about how expensive things are going to get. Open your eyes.

    As for your other post, you are aware numerous companies are planning to move their HQ from UK?

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    Its like talking to a troll, and I am getting convinced you're not actually serious.

    Enough of wasting my time.

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Yeah, you're a Pakistani too, right?
    Was generous enough to entertain this question once before - not going to bother again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    No country other than UK(maybe Spain/Italy) would leave. No chance of Germany. I know actual Germans who say otherwise, I could even link you to another forum (if it was allowed here, which its not) where England is being laughed at by Germans and other Europeans for the sheer amount of stupidity, as I said even in UK it was very very close.

    You can play hard, sure. But its UK begging for a good deal, not the EU. Infact the EU has been very blunt since the vote, ALL 27 countries while the UK doesn't have any sort of plan. If it was the other way around then EU would have given the UK the deal without any conditions. How you think a unanimous 27 nation alliance is somehow going to be played around in some sort of game by a single country is beyond any kind of logic and is utter arrogance. If the UK did not need any sort of deal and has so much leverage then it could simply invoke Article 50 and just leave and forego any deals, after all it'll be to the EU's detriment, right? Unbelievable. The country's currency has collapsed, the two big parties are in disarray, even the leave politicans are saying a recession won't be far, the EU is not balking, the xenophobia and racism is out of control and this guy wants to play hard ball. Even the Sun (THE SUN!!) had an article about how expensive things are going to get. Open your eyes.

    As for your other post, you are aware numerous companies are planning to move their HQ from UK?
    A schizophreniac rant that one has come to expect from the naysayers - must be the corbyn effect....

    Take a chill pill and have some patience - the longer this drags out the worse it is for the 2 main powers in the EU - Cameron has played a blinder in the interest of the country (intentionally or not) - at the expense of personal political suicide.

  22. #502
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    Boris rules himself out of the leadership !

  23. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Boris rules himself out of the leadership !
    No real surprise there. It's always easier to be a rabble rouser on the sidelines than to take responsibility and implement actual solutions. Still, he got his 15 mins of fame and the support of the moronic masses. Shame he's left them in the lurch, but well I guess that's not his problem.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  24. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    Was generous enough to entertain this question once before - not going to bother again.



    A schizophreniac rant that one has come to expect from the naysayers - must be the corbyn effect....

    Take a chill pill and have some patience - the longer this drags out the worse it is for the 2 main powers in the EU - Cameron has played a blinder in the interest of the country (intentionally or not) - at the expense of personal political suicide.
    I don't know about schizophrenia from the remain voters, but you leavers are clearly demonstrating it. Backtracking, lying, fantasy threats to the EU when they have no leverage, and now your hero has withdrawn from the PM race. Looks like he's not got the guts to take responsibility. Much like his idiotic supporters.

    Atleast Corbyn (and I don't support him, prefer someone else now after his shameful 'backing' of remain) has the guts to stand for himself.

  25. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Hooliganism has been described as 'the English disease' but you could add laziness, entitlement and arrogance if you really wanted to. It's got nothing to do with race or religion either. Black, white brown or other English born residents of non-indiginous backgrounds tend to display all of these traits as well.
    Fine with that Capster. I gave a talk to some 20something temp staff, mainly white English, and the level of entitlement in them shocked me. They felt they didn't have to take instructions, and I had to discipline a couple of them.

  26. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Fine with that Capster. I gave a talk to some 20something temp staff, mainly white English, and the level of entitlement in them shocked me. They felt they didn't have to take instructions, and I had to discipline a couple of them.
    The whip?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  27. #507
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    looks like the unravel is beginning, give it a few months and we will see who holds the cards:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...event-run-depo

    "the WSJ reported citing a spokeswoman for the European Union’s executive arm that the "European Commission has authorized Italy to use government guarantees to create a precautionary liquidity support program for their banks."

    How did this happen so quietly under the table and without Merkel's blessing? WSJ says that the program was approved under the bloc’s “extraordinary crisis rules for state aid."

    And here we thought that Italy's banks are actually doing so very well."

    and

    "To be sure, Italy's market has indeed been turbulent: Italian banks have lost more than half of their market capitalization since the beginning of the year, as investors fret about the lenders’ huge exposure to bad loans. That compares to an average decline of less than one third for European lenders. Some Italian banks have seen their shares drop by some 75%."

    ... and there was some pushback on a possible global recession irresepctive of brexit???

    and then today there was this:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ck-record-lows

    "As we previously conclude, considering two of the three most "globally systemically important", i.e., riskiest, banks just saw their stock price scrape all time lows earlier this week, we wonder just how nervous behind their calm facades are the executives at the ECB, the IMF, and the rest of the handful of people who realize just close to the edge of collapse this world's most riskiest bank (whose market cap is less than the valuation of AirBnB) finds itself right now."


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    its getting worse for europe - signs that the uk was indeed propping up an intrinsically bankrupt, crumbling and dissolving organisation. IF thats true, there will be huge bargaining leverage in the upcoming negotiations in favour of the uk:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...is-accelerates

    i wonder whether conversely this will be good for greece - if the creditors go bust, dont they get let off the hook?

    "The signs are everywhere - if you choose to look - Europe's banking system is collapsing (no matter what Draghi has to offer). From record lows in Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse to spiking default risk in Monte Paschi, the panic in Europe's funding markets (basis swaps collapsing) is palpable.

    Tumbling to a fresh post-Brexit low, Europe's Stoxx 600 Bank Index is testing EU crisis lows..."

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    and it doesnt stop. weird how all this has come out within two weeks of the referendum ending, almost as if it were being hidden by the eu in order to manipulate opinion on its dysfunction.

    and to think, the next countries to join the eu are all basket case economies run by heavily corrupt oligarchs too.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ts-while-ignor

    "In Unprecedented Decision, Europe Will Sanction Spain, Portugal Over Deficits While Ignoring France, Italy

    Confirming yet again that just like in the US, "some are more equal than others", moments ago the European Commission announced that it would seek sanctions for Spain and Portugal for breaching limits on budget deficits in an unprecedented step to enforce rules designed to prevent another debt crisis. “The two countries have veered off track in the correction of their excessive deficits and have not met their budgetary targets,” Valdis Dombrovskis, a vice-president of the European Commission, said in e-mailed statement. “Reducing the high deficit and debt levels is a pre-condition for sustainable economic growth in both countries."

    i guess loosing a big cash cow in the uk who was offering free credit for these high spending low productivity countries has been a bigger issue for europe than the uk after all, or it certainly seems to be pointing in that direction.

  31. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    and it doesnt stop. weird how all this has come out within two weeks of the referendum ending, almost as if it were being hidden by the eu in order to manipulate opinion on its dysfunction.

    and to think, the next countries to join the eu are all basket case economies run by heavily corrupt oligarchs too.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ts-while-ignor

    "In Unprecedented Decision, Europe Will Sanction Spain, Portugal Over Deficits While Ignoring France, Italy

    Confirming yet again that just like in the US, "some are more equal than others", moments ago the European Commission announced that it would seek sanctions for Spain and Portugal for breaching limits on budget deficits in an unprecedented step to enforce rules designed to prevent another debt crisis. “The two countries have veered off track in the correction of their excessive deficits and have not met their budgetary targets,” Valdis Dombrovskis, a vice-president of the European Commission, said in e-mailed statement. “Reducing the high deficit and debt levels is a pre-condition for sustainable economic growth in both countries."

    i guess loosing a big cash cow in the uk who was offering free credit for these high spending low productivity countries has been a bigger issue for europe than the uk after all, or it certainly seems to be pointing in that direction.
    Portugal and Spain have higher Debt to GDP ratios than France and Italy.

    Not everything happening in the EU has to do with the UK. Stop thinking that you are the center of the world. Time to move on from the XIXth century.

    The English are like that kid who throws tantrums because the adults are not giving him attention. Now they are dragging out the process to invoke article 50 because they noticed the other EU countries don't care about them and want them out of the EU as soon as possible.
    Last edited by endymion248; 7th July 2016 at 22:05.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    By the way it's funny to see the english talk about productivity. The UK worker is one of the least productive in the OCED.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  33. #513
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    Halal butcher shop firebombed in Walsall recently, didn't have insurance. Someone set up a GoFundME page for them



  34. #514
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    more euro scandals demonstrating even further how crap the eu is:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36787931

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    @Markhor @Robert

    Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the EU, the High Court has ruled.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785

  36. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    @Markhor @Robert

    Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the EU, the High Court has ruled.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785
    Yep, over on the LBC FB feed Brexiteers are squealing! James O'Brien is explaining to them how British democracy works instead of the wrong idea they had about it. It's hilarious! Hurrah for the Constitution of the UK. The MPs do not have to do what their constituents say, never have.

    Most Labour MPs will vote against triggering Article 50, as will all the Nationalists and all the Lib Dems. So it depends on how many Tories rebel.

    Brexit will get kicked down the road a bit while they work out a compromise model such as CETA.

    Mind you, I can see UKIP co-opting much northern Labour support over this.......

  37. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yep, over on the LBC FB feed Brexiteers are squealing! James O'Brien is explaining to them how British democracy works instead of the wrong idea they had about it. It's hilarious! Hurrah for the Constitution of the UK. The MPs do not have to do what their constituents say, never have.

    Most Labour MPs will vote against triggering Article 50, as will all the Nationalists and all the Lib Dems. So it depends on how many Tories rebel.

    Brexit will get kicked down the road a bit while they work out a compromise model such as CETA.

    Mind you, I can see UKIP co-opting much northern Labour support over this.......
    I doubt it. Even though most Labour MP's were in favour of remaining, they know that in some areas majority of their constituents who voted did so for Brexit. So they would not wish to face the wrath of their own voters and be kicked out at the next election.

    The new court ruling, if upheld by the Supreme Court, will cause a massive headache for the Government, and probably cause delays, but in the end the MP's will vote in favour on the basis that the Brexit vote won.

    Now, if the ruling means that a new Act of Parliament is required, then the House of Lords also has a say .... and the Lords don't have to please any constituents.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  38. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post

    Now, if the ruling means that a new Act of Parliament is required, then the House of Lords also has a say .... and the Lords don't have to please any constituents.
    Good point Yossa!

  39. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    @Markhor @Robert

    Parliament must vote on whether the UK can start the process of leaving the EU, the High Court has ruled.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785
    Apparently this will go to the Supreme Court. Unlikely this'll reverse Brexit. MPs have a duty to their constituents and don't want to be seen as defying the will of the people.

    Its a tough spot for Labour as the party position was to Remain yet Leave was the majority view in nearly 70% of Labour seats. Its also a tough spot for Remain Tories as they would be at odds with their Government who want to trigger Article 50.

    However what MPs can do is determine the type of Brexit, i.e. block a hard Brexit, and insist we remain in the single market.

    Its also ironic how Leavers are crying about Brussels violating Parliamentary sovereignty in Westminster yet are denouncing this decision...to let our sovereign Parliament vote on Brexit !
    Last edited by Markhor; 3rd November 2016 at 17:43.

  40. #520
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    What a slap in the face of democracy.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

  41. #521
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    I bet Corbyn will abstain lol

  42. #522
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    A very interesting development. This is going to get messy which will mean even more political and economic uncertainty.

  43. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yep, over on the LBC FB feed Brexiteers are squealing! James O'Brien is explaining to them how British democracy works instead of the wrong idea they had about it. It's hilarious! Hurrah for the Constitution of the UK. The MPs do not have to do what their constituents say, never have.

    Most Labour MPs will vote against triggering Article 50, as will all the Nationalists and all the Lib Dems. So it depends on how many Tories rebel.

    Brexit will get kicked down the road a bit while they work out a compromise model such as CETA.

    Mind you, I can see UKIP co-opting much northern Labour support over this.......
    I have expected a CETA-style model all along - but it still involves Brexiting.

    The issue really is that the EU has moved the goalposts and invented the "Four Freedoms" and now says that they are mandatory.

    But "Freedom of Movement" will never, ever be accepted in the UK - ironically because Blair went far ahead of other EU countries in opening the doors to Polish immigration.

    From Tusk to Juncker to Merkel to Valls and especially "Guardian readers" there is a mistaken view that if Brexit is made too costly the British will change their mind. But as long as "Freedom of Movement" is non-negotiable, Brexit is unstoppable. I have yet, incidentally, to see any credible argument for Freedom of Movement - it is just trotted out as if it requires no justification.

    I liked Jacques Delors and it was his comments on workplace rights which made me become an EU supporter in 1988. But the EU has become exactly what The Sun's 'Up Yours, Delors" headline opposed all those years ago - a European superstate.

    I expect that the UK will get a CETA-like trade treaty with the EU, largely because European car manufacturers require one. But I think that after a short period of trade difficulties the UK will quickly unveil trade treaties with Canada, Australia, Singapore and then the big guns - the USA and China.

    I also think that it is simply a matter of time before Marine Le Pen finally wins a presidential election in France - probably NOT this year - and takes France out of the EU.

  44. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I expect that the UK will get a CETA-like trade treaty with the EU, largely because European car manufacturers require one. But I think that after a short period of trade difficulties the UK will quickly unveil trade treaties with Canada, Australia, Singapore and then the big guns - the USA and China.
    So the EU is going to bend over backwards because of European car imports to Britain?

    Britain has a population of 64 million, meaning a potential 64 million customers for all European goods into the UK.
    The EU has a population of 544 million (excluding the UK), meaning a potential 544 million customers for all UK goods into the EU.

    That should tell you who holds the upper hand as regards the importance of free trade between the UK and the rest of the EU. Hint: It's not the UK!


    As for the value of European car imports into the UK, some (albeit not all) is counter balanced by UK car exports to the EU (which is why the UK govt. has just made secret promises to Nissan in return for Nissan not packing up and relocating to the continent). Besides, the importance of the EU to the City and financial institutions (so called 'Passporting' by Banks) on its own probably outweighs the value of motor vehicle trade between the UK and Europe.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  45. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post

    I also think that it is simply a matter of time before Marine Le Pen finally wins a presidential election in France - probably NOT this year - and takes France out of the EU.
    Looks like Mama Merkel is in trouble with the far right in Germany too.

  46. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    So the EU is going to bend over backwards because of European car imports to Britain?
    It will be a factor in negotiations. The UK is the second biggest overseas market for German cars, after the USA.

  47. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    It will be a factor in negotiations. The UK is the second biggest overseas market for German cars, after the USA.
    Everything will be a factor in negotiations. The point is, who has the upper hand? The EU with a potential 544 million customer base for all UK goods into the EU or the UK with a potential 64 million customer base for all European goods into the UK?

    Approx. 44% of the UK’s exports go to other EU countries, while somewhere between 8-17% of exports from other EU countries go to the UK (depending on how you measure it).

    The value of that trade to the UK and other EU countries’ economies—exports to the rest of the EU are worth about 13% of the UK’s economy, and exports from other EU countries to the UK are worth about 3-4% of the value of those countries’ economies taken as a whole.

    So which side has more to lose, the UK or the EU countries (as as a group or as individual entities)?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  48. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Everything will be a factor in negotiations. The point is, who has the upper hand? The EU with a potential 544 million customer base for all UK goods into the EU or the UK with a potential 64 million customer base for all European goods into the UK?

    Approx. 44% of the UK’s exports go to other EU countries, while somewhere between 8-17% of exports from other EU countries go to the UK (depending on how you measure it).

    The value of that trade to the UK and other EU countries’ economies—exports to the rest of the EU are worth about 13% of the UK’s economy, and exports from other EU countries to the UK are worth about 3-4% of the value of those countries’ economies taken as a whole.

    So which side has more to lose, the UK or the EU countries (as as a group or as individual entities)?
    Neither, because Poland or Romania doesnt care if Germany cannot export cars into Britain, they concern is their own expat population that work in the UK and send money back home. Each EU country have a different set of priorities.

    UK imports more form individual EU nations than vice versa, the EU collective figures are only used to skew the argument.

    EU has no long term solutions to the real issues Europe are facing at the moment or going in to the future. The lethargy and indecisiveness of eu as a political body holds absolutely no good for Britain. The divorce will be very difficult and expensive, but earlier the better.

  49. #529
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    Ignore the will of the people. What could possibly go wrong? Its funny how the same people who preach democracy are cheering for this ruling hoping that MP's overrule the decision made by the people.

  50. #530
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    Actually think this could be a bit of a red herring. The UK will still leave the EU following the parliamentary vote.

  51. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
    Neither, because Poland or Romania doesnt care if Germany cannot export cars into Britain, they concern is their own expat population that work in the UK and send money back home. Each EU country have a different set of priorities.

    UK imports more form individual EU nations than vice versa, the EU collective figures are only used to skew the argument.

    EU has no long term solutions to the real issues Europe are facing at the moment or going in to the future. The lethargy and indecisiveness of eu as a political body holds absolutely no good for Britain. The divorce will be very difficult and expensive, but earlier the better.
    Doesn't appear as if you understood the post. Oh well ...


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  52. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShahKhan007 View Post
    Ignore the will of the people. What could possibly go wrong? Its funny how the same people who preach democracy are cheering for this ruling hoping that MP's overrule the decision made by the people.
    Its also funny the same folks crying about Brussels impeding the sovereignty of Parliament in Westminster are up in arms...about Parliament having a say.

    Parliament won't reverse Brexit, but they damn well should vote on the type of Brexit and not the disasterous hard Brexit that May's Govt is headed towards that would damage our economy and hurt household incomes across the UK.

  53. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Actually think this could be a bit of a red herring. The UK will still leave the EU following the parliamentary vote.
    Listening to what various Pro EU Labour MPs have said in recent days it appears even they won't vote against article 50 being invoked - so it looks like you're right.

    Corbyn has said the same:

    "Labour respects the decision of the British people to leave the European Union," the Labour Party leader said in a statement.

  54. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Listening to what various Pro EU Labour MPs have said in recent days it appears even they won't vote against article 50 being invoked - so it looks like you're right.

    Corbyn has said the same:

    "Labour respects the decision of the British people to leave the European Union," the Labour Party leader said in a statement.
    Well yer exactly. Way more than 326 MPs are going to vote in favour of this.

    Otherwise we will have a repeat of the 2011 riots IMO. The government will know this.

  55. #535
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    Distasteful attitude of EU Leaders.


    Theresa May snubbed at EU Summit



    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  56. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    The issue really is that the EU has moved the goalposts and invented the "Four Freedoms" and now says that they are mandatory.

    But "Freedom of Movement" will never, ever be accepted in the UK - ironically because Blair went far ahead of other EU countries in opening the doors to Polish immigration.
    The post-truth Australian Brexiter, ladies and gentleman. Who cares about the 50 years history of the ''Four freedoms'', EU actually invented them to punish UK

    It's apparent from your post that you don't even know the difference between a trade deal (which CETA is) and a common market (which EEA is). Let me explain the basic difference which you should have known before voting if you had your country's interest at heart. There can be no common market without the 4 freedoms, there can be a trade deal without the 4 freedoms. The EU wants to have a CETA-style trade deal with the UK, it's the UK government which wants to stay in the single market without the 4 freedoms. Which is impossible, and they know it, but they know that it will create a narrative that the EU isn't being cooperative. And, of course, the common englishman will gobble this narrative up because you can never underestimate how deluded he can be.
    Last edited by endymion248; 21st December 2016 at 00:45.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  57. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Distasteful attitude of EU Leaders.


    Theresa May snubbed at EU Summit

    If she doesn't want to be snubbed, she should trigger Article 50 as the UK's people wanted and get the hell out of there. There is no place anymore for UK leaders at a EU summit.

    The attitude of UK leaders since Brexit referendum has been disgraceful. They are refusing to bear the consequences of what their people voted for and, to absolve themselves of the blame, have been lying through their teeth to the british people about the negociations.

    The British position in the negociations is this: we want something impossible, EU laughed at us to the door thus they are trying to punish us. See, voters, we aren't the bad guys for not triggering article 50.

    The sooner this farce is over, the better. It's about time someone in the UK grows some guts and leaves the rest of Europe alone.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  58. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    The post-truth Australian Brexiter, ladies and gentleman. Who cares about the 50 years history of the ''Four freedoms'', EU actually invented them to punish UK

    It's apparent from your post that you don't even know the difference between a trade deal (which CETA is) and a common market (which EEA is). Let me explain the basic difference which you should have known before voting if you had your country's interest at heart. There can be no common market without the 4 freedoms, there can be a trade deal without the 4 freedoms. The EU wants to have a CETA-style trade deal with the UK, it's the UK government which wants to stay in the single market without the 4 freedoms. Which is impossible, and they know it, but they know that it will create a narrative that the EU isn't being cooperative. And, of course, the common englishman will gobble this narrative up because you can never underestimate how deluded he can be.
    How is this "post-truth"?

    My parents voted to be part of the nine-nation European Economic Community in 1975.

    They did not vote to be with the other twenty countries at all, let alone for Poles or Romanians to have a right to reside in the U.K.

    All they voted for was a trade bloc.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  59. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    How is this "post-truth"?

    My parents voted to be part of the nine-nation European Economic Community in 1975.

    They did not vote to be with the other twenty countries at all, let alone for Poles or Romanians to have a right to reside in the U.K.

    All they voted for was a trade bloc.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Of course they did, and so did you. It's impossible for the EU to enlarge without the approval of every single country's government AND the Europoean parliamant. You voted for the government of the UK and the European Parliament (or abstained) thus you voted for the enlargement of the EU. That's how democracy works.

    The post-truth aspect is that the four freedoms are a fundamental aspect of the common market for decades. Yet you are saying that Eu invented them after Brexit.

    It's about time Brexiters understand that there can be no common market without them, this is not about propaganda. Freedom of movement is semiologically a part of any common market. The United States wouldn't be a common market if someone from New York can't go and work in California. CETA (or NAFTA or TTIP) is not a common market.

    EU wants a CETA-like deal with the UK, UK wants to remain in the common market. Which means freedom of movement by definition.
    Last edited by endymion248; 21st December 2016 at 01:02.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  60. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    My parents voted to be part of the nine-nation European Economic Community in 1975.

    They did not vote to be with the other twenty countries at all, let alone for Poles or Romanians to have a right to reside in the U.K.

    All they voted for was a trade bloc.
    By the way, the European Economic Community wasn't just a ''trade bloc''. It was a common market as per the terms of Treaty of Rome from 1957. If they thought they were joining a trade bloc when the Treaty of Rome was at that time 20 years old then I know where you get your deluded personality from.
    Last edited by endymion248; 21st December 2016 at 01:07.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  61. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Of course they did, and so did you. It's impossible for the EU to enlarge without the approval of every single country's government AND the Europoean parliamant. You voted for the government of the UK and the European Parliament (or abstained) thus you voted for the enlargement of the EU. That's how democracy works.

    The post-truth aspect is that the four freedoms are a fundamental aspect of the common market for decades. Yet you are saying that Eu invented them after Brexit.

    It's about time Brexiters understand that there can be no common market without them, this is not about propaganda. Freedom of movement is semiologically a part of any common market. The United States wouldn't be a common market if someone from New York can't go and work in California. CETA (or NAFTA or TTIP) is not a common market.

    EU wants a CETA-like deal with the UK, UK wants to remain in the common market. Which means freedom of movement by definition.
    You assume that people vote in General Elections solely on the EU issue.

    And you conveniently ignore that UKIP won the 2014 European Parliament election.

    The EEC came into existence in 1958. Freedom of Movement of Polish citizens is twelve years old and of Romanians is a decade old. Freedom of Movement of legacy Europeans is only 25 years old.

    Personally, I think that the EU is finished and that in 2022 - possibly even 2017 - President Le Pen will end it.

    The Eurocrats went far too far in federalisation and will end up destroying everything. I would support a 15 nation trading bloc - nothing more.

    President-elect Trump has made clear that the UK is at the front of the queue to join a renegotiated NAFTA. Given that the EU has become unreformable and in my opinion is moribund, I think it's more important for the UK to enter Free Trade deals with the white Commonwealth countries and the USA, and follow Australia in concluding them with China and Japan.

    We can negotiate with France and the Netherlands quickly and conclusively when they depart the EU.

  62. #542
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    By the way, @endymion248

    I am bilingual in English and French. My children are French citizens.

    I would accept a trading community with northern and Western European nations.

    But I don't accept that a Pole has more rights than a Pakistani to live or work in the U.K. The idea is absurd.

    And if the EU tries what it tried with the USA (where Western Europeans enjoy visa-free travel but Eastern Europeans don't) then I would adopt a position in which all Europeans apart from the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots require a Visa to enter the UK.

    The party is over for Eastern Europeans. We have no historical links or responsibilities to them, and there is no reason for any additional ones to enjoy any rights that our Commonwealth family does not.

  63. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    President-elect Trump has made clear that the UK is at the front of the queue to join a renegotiated NAFTA. Given that the EU has become unreformable and in my opinion is moribund, I think it's more important for the UK to enter Free Trade deals with the white Commonwealth countries and the USA, and follow Australia in concluding them with China and Japan.
    Why specifically only white Commonwealth countries?
    And do you include South Africa in that?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  64. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Why specifically only white Commonwealth countries?
    And do you include South Africa in that?
    No I don't include South Africa.

    It's about economic level, not colour.

    The lunacy of Eastern European EU accession was the integration of poorer nations into a wealthy federation.

    I would have deep integration with those wealthy Commonwealth nations and if a low skilled low wage workforce is required, I would favour West Indian nations' citizens.

  65. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    You assume that people vote in General Elections solely on the EU issue.

    And you conveniently ignore that UKIP won the 2014 European Parliament election.

    The EEC came into existence in 1958. Freedom of Movement of Polish citizens is twelve years old and of Romanians is a decade old. Freedom of Movement of legacy Europeans is only 25 years old.

    Personally, I think that the EU is finished and that in 2022 - possibly even 2017 - President Le Pen will end it.

    The Eurocrats went far too far in federalisation and will end up destroying everything. I would support a 15 nation trading bloc - nothing more.

    President-elect Trump has made clear that the UK is at the front of the queue to join a renegotiated NAFTA. Given that the EU has become unreformable and in my opinion is moribund, I think it's more important for the UK to enter Free Trade deals with the white Commonwealth countries and the USA, and follow Australia in concluding them with China and Japan.

    We can negotiate with France and the Netherlands quickly and conclusively when they depart the EU.
    Whether they vote on one issue or not is not the point. Freedom of movement was a principle of Europe since 1957, which the English knew when they voted to join. After that, it is the democratically elected government of the UK which chose to enlarge the EU to Poland and co.

    There hasn't been an enlargement since the 2014 elections. And UKIP didn't win them, they won some seats, they are still a minority.

    It's funny how all these right-wingers like Le Pen and Farage are acting chummy with eachother, united by a common hate of the EU. At the end of the day, they are all nationalists, nobody hates England more than French nationalists (and vice versa). BTW, there will be no ''President Le Pen''. It's either Fillon or Macron who are going to win next year, you can mark my words. Even in 2022, Macron or Valls are more likely than Le Pen.

    Nobody cares about NAFTA, it's just a trade deal like CETA. Countries have hundreds of them with eachother. The EU has a trade deal with half the world. The debate is about the single market and freedom of movement.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  66. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    By the way, @endymion248

    I am bilingual in English and French. My children are French citizens.

    I would accept a trading community with northern and Western European nations.

    But I don't accept that a Pole has more rights than a Pakistani to live or work in the U.K. The idea is absurd.

    And if the EU tries what it tried with the USA (where Western Europeans enjoy visa-free travel but Eastern Europeans don't) then I would adopt a position in which all Europeans apart from the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots require a Visa to enter the UK.

    The party is over for Eastern Europeans. We have no historical links or responsibilities to them, and there is no reason for any additional ones to enjoy any rights that our Commonwealth family does not.
    Why would a Pole not have more right to live and work in a country with which they share a common market than a Pakistani? What exactly is the link between Pakistan and England? Former master and former slave. What is the value of the Commonwealth? Just a fading power trying to maintain a simili of its former colonial empire. Commonwealth may evoke glory to you, to Pakistanis and other colonies, it means nothing. And, as far as immigration is concerned, English expatriates are one of the biggest disaporas in the world. So why does an English person have rights to live and work in Spain, France, Australia, USA, Germany, Canada, etc... but other people don't?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  67. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    No I don't include South Africa.

    It's about economic level, not colour.

    The lunacy of Eastern European EU accession was the integration of poorer nations into a wealthy federation.

    I would have deep integration with those wealthy Commonwealth nations and if a low skilled low wage workforce is required, I would favour West Indian nations' citizens.
    I wouldn't call the Czechia or Baltics poor. Especially when western europe has such developed areas as Wales and Northern Ireland. Tbf, the Czech Republic is probably at the same level as England outside London.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  68. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Why would a Pole not have more right to live and work in a country with which they share a common market than a Pakistani? What exactly is the link between Pakistan and England? Former master and former slave. What is the value of the Commonwealth? Just a fading power trying to maintain a simili of its former colonial empire. Commonwealth may evoke glory to you, to Pakistanis and other colonies, it means nothing. And, as far as immigration is concerned, English expatriates are one of the biggest disaporas in the world. So why does an English person have rights to live and work in Spain, France, Australia, USA, Germany, Canada, etc... but other people don't?
    Businesses employ Poles because they work hard and are cheap. Like they used to employ Indians and Pakistanis fifty years ago. Which is why Bradford has the demographics it has.

    But apart from whiteness, Poles have virtually nothing in common with we British. They eat their own food, they are religious, they watch Polish TV and they read Polish newspapers.

    West Indians integrated far more extensively. And so did those Indians and Pakistanis who had been educated in English-medium schools, who tend to be less religious and less immersed in their former culture than their non-English medium peers.

    Places like Wales and the North struggle enormously with shortages of GPs (family doctors) now. If doctors from Karachi or Delhi could get in now people would be euphoric.

    You view the UK/India relationship as a failed master/servant relationship.

    But the truth is that the British and the Barbadians, Jamaicans, Trinidadians and English-medium educated Asians have a shared heritage and shared culture to a great extent.

    But the Poles have nothing in common with us.
    Last edited by Junaids; 21st December 2016 at 06:39.

  69. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Businesses employ Poles because they work hard and are cheap.
    But the Poles have nothing in common with us.
    My best man is an Anglo-Pole. There is a thriving Anglo-Pole community here. Poles helped crack the Enigma Code. Of the recent influx, some will marry English people, have kids and start putting down roots. I expect a lot will migrate home after Brexit.

  70. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    My best man is an Anglo-Pole. There is a thriving Anglo-Pole community here. Poles helped crack the Enigma Code. Of the recent influx, some will marry English people, have kids and start putting down roots. I expect a lot will migrate home after Brexit.
    Very true.

    I spent the first six years of my life living in a semi in Stretford, and our neighbours were a Polish family who had moved over during WW2.

    They integrated fully and by the 1970's were no longer attending Church.

    I'm still in contact with their son, who is now in his mid-50's. He is saddened by the bulk of new Polish immigrants living in their own bubble like so many educated Indian and Pakistani Britons are horrified by their compatriots who do not attempt to assimilate and who marry their children off to people from the subcontinent.

    There is no one size fits all.

    But I don't think it helps Britain or Poland for their graduates to come over to work in unskilled jobs.

    And I see us having a historical link - and debt - to the Commonwealth. I'd rather have an English-speaking cricket-loving Sri Lankan or Jamaican in that unskilled job than a Pole or a Romanian.

    It saddens me that the European Commission is taking such an adversarial approach to our democratic decision to exit the EU. It means that we have no option but to use our existing EU immigrants as human shields in the negotiations.

    I do object, BTW, to what @endymion248 described, the humiliation and marginalisation of our PM at EU meetings.

    We have not invoked Article 50. We should make clear that we remain full EU members and that the other states have no right to meet without us or exclude us from anything.

    The fact that they continue to marginalise, exclude and humiliate us reinforces that we took the right decision to divorce them.

    I still held out hope that the EU was reformable and salvageable until "President" Juncker humiliated Cameron when he went to renegotiate before the election. It became clear to me that "President" Juncker and "President" Tusk and "President" Schultz, all three of them unelected, have a sneering contempt for democracy.

    They will not reform, and indeed will try to speed up "Ever Closer Union" without seeing that they are hurtling France and the Netherlands and Denmark over a cliff to exit.

  71. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    What is the value of the Commonwealth?
    From wiki:

    The Commonwealth's objectives were first outlined in the 1971 Singapore Declaration, which committed the Commonwealth to the institution of world peace; promotion of representative democracy and individual liberty; the pursuit of equality and opposition to racism; the fight against poverty, ignorance, and disease; and free trade. To these were added opposition to discrimination on the basis of gender by the Lusaka Declaration of 1979, and environmental sustainability by the Langkawi Declaration of 1989. These objectives were reinforced by the Harare Declaration in 1991.

    Links through diplomacy, intelligence gathering, culture and sport.

    Sadly, most citizens of the Commonwelath are ignorant of these good things, which is a shame as it is a wonderful resource and could be so much better.

    Post-Brexit, free trade between the UK and Commonwealth will increase and I can see freedom of labour and movement developing between some countries.

    Sudan has applied to join.

  72. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    From wiki:

    The Commonwealth's objectives were first outlined in the 1971 Singapore Declaration, which committed the Commonwealth to the institution of world peace; promotion of representative democracy and individual liberty; the pursuit of equality and opposition to racism; the fight against poverty, ignorance, and disease; and free trade. To these were added opposition to discrimination on the basis of gender by the Lusaka Declaration of 1979, and environmental sustainability by the Langkawi Declaration of 1989. These objectives were reinforced by the Harare Declaration in 1991.

    Links through diplomacy, intelligence gathering, culture and sport.

    Sadly, most citizens of the Commonwelath are ignorant of these good things, which is a shame as it is a wonderful resource and could be so much better.

    Post-Brexit, free trade between the UK and Commonwealth will increase and I can see freedom of labour and movement developing between some countries.

    Sudan has applied to join.
    Boris Johnson visited Australia long before he came out in favour of Brexit and argued for this.

    I would like the UK to follow Australia in concluding multiple Free Trade Agreements with the likes of the USA, China and Japan.

    And I would like to see the return of the Dark Blue British passport and a return to the pre-1982 status quo. Until then, Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders were citizens of their nation but British Subjects. That expression is politically toxic now, but I would like to see reciprocal limited Freedom of Movement and recognition of qualifications between those four nations and Ireland. For the UK I would also add Malta and Cyprus.

    I would allow reciprocal residence for up to two years, automatic granting of Work Permits to anyone holding a job offer in a field in which they hold professional qualifications. (This is less free than what EU citizens currently enjoy. Whereas a Pole with a degree in accountancy can work as a waitress currently, a Canadian with the same qualification would only get a Work Permit to work as an accountant).

    And any need for unskilled labour I would seek to address by concluding agreements with the Commonwealth nations in the West Indies.

  73. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    From wiki:

    The Commonwealth's objectives were first outlined in the 1971 Singapore Declaration, which committed the Commonwealth to the institution of world peace; promotion of representative democracy and individual liberty; the pursuit of equality and opposition to racism; the fight against poverty, ignorance, and disease; and free trade. To these were added opposition to discrimination on the basis of gender by the Lusaka Declaration of 1979, and environmental sustainability by the Langkawi Declaration of 1989. These objectives were reinforced by the Harare Declaration in 1991.

    Links through diplomacy, intelligence gathering, culture and sport.

    Sadly, most citizens of the Commonwelath are ignorant of these good things, which is a shame as it is a wonderful resource and could be so much better.

    Post-Brexit, free trade between the UK and Commonwealth will increase and I can see freedom of labour and movement developing between some countries.

    Sudan has applied to join.
    As if Sudan is a major indication of much.

    Lets be realistic here, I'm not pro or anti-Brexit I saw and still do see both sides and I oppose a pan-european superstate, but lets call the Commonwealth for what it is. A talking shop

  74. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    As if Sudan is a major indication of much.

    Lets be realistic here, I'm not pro or anti-Brexit I saw and still do see both sides and I oppose a pan-european superstate, but lets call the Commonwealth for what it is. A talking shop
    That's part of the problem. These expats who no longer live in the UK want the Commonwealth to be everything they criticize in the EU, because the Commonwealth is born from acting like their colonial empire still exists in an abstract manner while the EU is born from the reality that the UK (or France or Germany) is no longer a world power on its own.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  75. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    From wiki:

    The Commonwealth's objectives were first outlined in the 1971 Singapore Declaration, which committed the Commonwealth to the institution of world peace; promotion of representative democracy and individual liberty; the pursuit of equality and opposition to racism; the fight against poverty, ignorance, and disease; and free trade. To these were added opposition to discrimination on the basis of gender by the Lusaka Declaration of 1979, and environmental sustainability by the Langkawi Declaration of 1989. These objectives were reinforced by the Harare Declaration in 1991.

    Links through diplomacy, intelligence gathering, culture and sport.

    Sadly, most citizens of the Commonwelath are ignorant of these good things, which is a shame as it is a wonderful resource and could be so much better.

    Post-Brexit, free trade between the UK and Commonwealth will increase and I can see freedom of labour and movement developing between some countries.

    Sudan has applied to join.

    Do you think that's what the good folk of Britain were voting for when they opted for Brexit?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  76. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Do you think that's what the good folk of Britain were voting for when they opted for Brexit?
    Lol, imagine the Commonwealth adopted free movement and then the UK had a Comexit

  77. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    That's part of the problem. These expats who no longer live in the UK want the Commonwealth to be everything they criticize in the EU, because the Commonwealth is born from acting like their colonial empire still exists in an abstract manner while the EU is born from the reality that the UK (or France or Germany) is no longer a world power on its own.
    I don't think I'm an expat. Like Andrew Strauss I live in Australia. Just like Clive James lives in the U.K., and Barry Humphries and Kylie Minogue.

    Please do let me know if you discover an Australian date of independence.

  78. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Do you think that's what the good folk of Britain were voting for when they opted for Brexit?
    I don't think many would object.

    Nigel Farage and Boris are much more mainstream than Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech was.

    95% of people accepted Indian doctors and Jamaican nurses.

    And I'm sure far more people would accept an Aussie or Kiwi in a job in the U.K. than a Romanian or Lithuanian.

    Especially if it came with reciprocal rights to live and work in Sydney or Vancouver.

  79. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I don't think many would object.

    And I'm sure far more people would accept an Aussie or Kiwi in a job in the U.K. than a Romanian or Lithuanian.

    Especially if it came with reciprocal rights to live and work in Sydney or Vancouver.
    What would more people value?

    The right to live and work in Vilnius or Vancouver?

    Slovenia or Sydney?

    Athens or Auckland?

    Talk of the Commonwealth being irrelevant is stupid.

    We are a proper family, and while I accept that British people may like the distance-driven convenience of a holiday home in France or Spain, the places we aspire to live in are basically Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

  80. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I don't think I'm an expat. Like Andrew Strauss I live in Australia. Just like Clive James lives in the U.K., and Barry Humphries and Kylie Minogue.

    Please do let me know if you discover an Australian date of independence.
    You were born in the UK. You moved to Australia when you were an adult. Australia is a different country from the UK. You're an expat.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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