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  1. #1
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    Are Kane Williamson, Steve Smith, Joe Root, and Virat Kohli overrated in Tests?

    Australia - Sri Lanka 0-3
    New Zealand - India 0-3
    England - Pakistan 0-2

    Where is the impact? Where are the match-saving/winning innings? I see a lot of people bashing the likes of Younis Khan for failing overseas but it seems like the top batsmen of this era are even worse when they step outside of home.

    Do you also think these batsmen are a bit overrated in tests and previous generation like KP, Younis, Sanga, Amla, etc. deserve more respect?

  2. #2
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    Younis, Sanga, KP and maybe even Amla are ATG's. These blokes are potential ATG's bro. Still early-ish days in their careers. Each of them have played terrific knocks that set them apart, and not just a couple of innings, but they've maintained consistency. And, mind you, teams don't win on the basis of one man. Sanga had the support of Mahela with him, another ATG and Murali in the bowling department. Amla has had the support of AB and Smith in the past, who are both legends of the game and Steyn won the games singlehandedly. Younis has had Misbah, Saeed Ajmal and now Yasir Shah to be their to win the games. KP was part of an all star team. So, the deal is, right now, each of these 'young guns' seem to be the only star athletes in their team, apart from Kohli having Ashwin.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Australia - Sri Lanka 0-3
    New Zealand - India 0-3
    England - Pakistan 0-2

    Where is the impact? Where are the match-saving/winning innings? I see a lot of people bashing the likes of Younis Khan for failing overseas but it seems like the top batsmen of this era are even worse when they step outside of home.

    Do you also think these batsmen are a bit overrated in tests and previous generation like KP, Younis, Sanga, Amla, etc. deserve more respect?
    All of these are excellent batsmen, not greats (yet). But match-winning innings require support too. It is a team of 11 not 1.

    YK and Misbah score runs, Yasir and Amir take wickets, Sarfraz chips in with runs and his good keeping. In this way, a team does well. Not just YK.

    By your logic, Sanga and YK should not be considered greats since Sanga never won a test in India/Australia. YK never won in Australia.


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  4. #4
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    Yes they are. You need your big players to stand up when playing away and although they usually have at least one good innings it is not enough.

    Root did well in UAE but constantly give his wicket away and if I remember correctly failed to make a single hundred. On pitches of UAE you need to go real big to affect the result which he couldn't do.

    We all know what happened with Kohli in England however I do rate him highly and slightly above the rest. Feel he would have a much better contribution if he played in England right now.

    Regarding Smith and Williamson they are both very good batsman but are they really in a league above the likes of Younis, Cook, Amla and Rahane as of right now?
    Last edited by Boom boom legend; 11th October 2016 at 23:16.

  5. #5
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    The conclusion of them being future greats is from the culimantion of all their contributions over the last few years in big series. Yeah VK flopped in England, but honestly which Asian batsman hasn't? By the same token he has already had much more success in Aus then pretty much all of our legends, SL legends.


    Swing it like Akram, whack it like Afridi, live it like Inti.

  6. #6
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    Root is overrated but the rest aren't. As @Suleiman mentioned, Kohli has only flopped in England but has done well everywhere else. The success that Kohli enjoyed in Australia, our "Greatest Test batsman" won't.


    You gotta work until your idols become your rivals.

  7. #7
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    But Kohli's team won. So he is not overrated by OP's logic.

  8. #8
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    Kane Williamson probably is. He's brilliant like Smith when there is no movement, but his foot movement is dodgy.

  9. #9
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    One player being overrated or underrated can't be determined based on how 22 players play in a match.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  10. #10
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    The 4 mentioned in the OP are not considered ATG, but they are considered future ATG. Current ATG are: Cook, Amla, De Villiers, and Younis.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  11. #11
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    One man can not change the result for a whole team.

    Joe Root scored 288 runs against us in the series at an average of 57. Doesn't mean his team was able to win. It's a team effort even in the days of these ATGs. A single handedly match saving innings is very very rare,


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  12. #12
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    Smith is rated appropriately.. Lots of question marks on other three

  13. #13
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    Do you also think these batsmen are a bit overrated in tests and previous generation like KP, Younis, Sanga, Amla, etc. deserve more respect?
    I don't think we should overrate the likes of Williamson, Smith, Root and Kohli but it would be more appropriate to ask these questions once we have a larger sample size. These guys still have long careers ahead of them.


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  14. #14
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    I think Rahane is better test batsman than these 4. Based on what I have seen so far and I could be proven wrong over the long term.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suleiman View Post
    The conclusion of them being future greats is from the culimantion of all their contributions over the last few years in big series. Yeah VK flopped in England, but honestly which Asian batsman hasn't? By the same token he has already had much more success in Aus then pretty much all of our legends, SL legends.
    YOUNIS KHAN scored a double century IN England. What a beast.

    Even Hafeez has a better average than VK in England. Virat is an LOI ATG but he has a lot left to prove in tests.Couple of doubles against WI/NZ isn't enough.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    I think Rahane is better test batsman than these 4. Based on what I have seen so far and I could be proven wrong over the long term.
    Rahane is a big suspect on pitches that are two-paced. If he learns to bat on those, he'd definitely be the best in Indian team not sure if he'd be better than Root though.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabarAkmal_Fan View Post
    YOUNIS KHAN scored a double century IN England. What a beast.

    Even Hafeez has a better average than VK in England. Virat is an LOI ATG but he has a lot left to prove in tests.Couple of doubles against WI/NZ isn't enough.
    Of course he has a lot to prove. He's just 47 tests old lol. He's still to play a lot more cricket, maybe 2 or 3 more tours to England to prove his worth there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabarAkmal_Fan View Post
    YOUNIS KHAN scored a double century IN England. What a beast.

    Even Hafeez has a better average than VK in England. Virat is an LOI ATG but he has a lot left to prove in tests.Couple of doubles against WI/NZ isn't enough.
    Younis Khan is also 40 years old with a career spanning from 2000. Maybe think about how many chances he got to prove himself...

    Besides, i never said Virat is an ATG, he is a potential ATG because he has many years to prove himself.


    Swing it like Akram, whack it like Afridi, live it like Inti.

  19. #19
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    Neither of the mentioned are ATGs.

    Sanga and Amla are ATG in tests while AB and Virat are two of the best batsmen of the era across the formats.

    Root, Smith and Williamson have potential to be ATGs.Give them some more time.

    Younis and Cook are world class in tests but dud in odis.

  20. #20
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    Younis is heavily underrated in tests. None of Kohli, Williamson, Root, or Smith will score a double century in England (or in Asia in Root's case) in their careers. Book it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabarAkmal_Fan View Post
    Younis is heavily underrated in tests. None of Kohli, Williamson, Root, or Smith will score a double century in England (or in Asia in Root's case) in their careers. Book it.
    Smith has a double in England at Lords.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post

    Sanga and Amla are ATG in tests
    Long way to go.. Next 4-5 years will be crucial

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Smith has a double in England at Lords.
    That doesn't count. His statement was about future.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Long way to go.. Next 4-5 years will be crucial
    Yeah... Just need to carry his team for 2-3 years.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    That doesn't count. His statement was about future.
    Maybe. But when a guy has scored a double century at 25, why would you claim that he can't score again in the same country?

    Obviously, Smith might do it or might not be able to do it but generally you would make predictions on the basis of performance of player in those conditions or on basis of how tough it is to score in those conditions.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabarAkmal_Fan View Post
    YOUNIS KHAN scored a double century IN England. What a beast.

    Even Hafeez has a better average than VK in England. Virat is an LOI ATG but he has a lot left to prove in tests.Couple of doubles against WI/NZ isn't enough.
    YK is a test cricket great, no doubt. But has centuries in Adelaide(3), Melbourne, Jo'burg, Wellington, Sydney, Galle and Antigua. Except Adelaide none of these are motorways.


    ...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabarAkmal_Fan View Post
    None of Kohli, Williamson or Smith will score a double century in England in their careers
    Okay, we shall see. All of them are around 26/ 27 years right now.


    ...

  28. #28
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    There was no doubt about that. These guys have had a couple of great years, whereas the likes of Amla, Younis and to a lesser extent Cook and de Villiers have been consistently great for a decade or so.

    These four young batsmen, along with Babar Azam and De Kock can end up as ATGs, just like Starc, Amir, Boult, Rabada and Shah can end up as ATGs. However, they have a long way to go and have done nothing to be considered better than the old guard which is made up of Amla, Younis, Cook, de Villiers, Steyn and Anderson.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    YK is a test cricket great, no doubt. But has centuries in Adelaide(3), Melbourne, Jo'burg, Wellington, Sydney, Galle and Antigua. Except Adelaide none of these are motorways.
    Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney were all extremely flat in the series where Kohli scored four centuries, Smith became Bradman reborn and bowling averages looked like batting averages.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  30. #30
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    Virat and Rahane above the rest for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney were all extremely flat in the series where Kohli scored four centuries, Smith became Bradman reborn and bowling averages looked like batting averages.
    Against Indian bowling line up under Dhoni most batsmen plundered runs. Smith, Clarke, Warner, Rogers, et al.
    Australian pitches have been the same for past 4-5 years after getting relaid. Yes, they are flat with true bounce.


    ...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AamchiMumbaikar View Post
    Against Indian bowling line up under Dhoni most batsmen plundered runs. Smith, Clarke, Warner, Rogers, et al.
    Australian pitches have been the same for past 4-5 years after getting relaid. Yes, they are flat with true bounce.
    Last time they were any good was during MJ's Ashes.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  33. #33
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    Ok, may be asking for a match saving/winning innings is way too much expectation but what I find so disappointing is that none of these batsmen have played any innings of note in Asia. Winning requires team work but even in loss, a good batsman can play a memorable innings. I am yet to see ones such inning from them. Note that this is more for Smith, Williamson, and Root. Kohli at least scored runs in Australia and South Africa.

    I think it is reasonable to say that they have ATG potential but it is ridiculous when somebody rates them higher than veterans like Younis, Amla, Sanga, Clarke, etc.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Maybe. But when a guy has scored a double century at 25, why would you claim that he can't score again in the same country?

    Obviously, Smith might do it or might not be able to do it but generally you would make predictions on the basis of performance of player in those conditions or on basis of how tough it is to score in those conditions.
    I was just pulling your leg here.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  35. #35
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    How interesting, People here defending Williamson with the argument that One player can't be judge how 22 players play in a match, One person can't win a match etc. But when it comes to Sachin - He is overrated because he couldn't win matches for India?

  36. #36
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    Ok how many tests did Sachin Tendulkar save for India when we toured overseas (he was MOS one series which we lost 0-3).

    How many matches could Dravid save for India single handedly (3 hundreds in Eng during 0-4 loss)?

    How many matches did Lara save for WI touring overseas (run machine in SL in 0-3 loss)?

    Fact of the matter is that a batsman (even if he is ATG) is just one component in the large scheme of things. A bowler can bring in more impact than batsman in tests but that's how the game is designed.


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  37. #37
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    Just saw the subsequent comment by Odd ji.

    Lack of memorable innings is fair criticism.


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  38. #38
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    Root and KW are not IMO, not Amla level yet but are on the right path.
    Smith is vulnerable against a moving ball (be it swing or spin)
    Kolhi is not in the same bracket as those players as far as batsmanship is concerned.

  39. #39
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    Rahane is underated he's way ahead of Kohli, and is the one who should be put alongside Root and KW.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    Root and KW are not IMO, not Amla level yet but are on the right path.
    Smith is vulnerable against a moving ball (be it swing or spin)
    Kolhi is not in the same bracket as those players as far as batsmanship is concerned.
    Smith is very very good against spin.

    One average series in SL doesn't change it. Even then he averaged 41 in that series.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 12th October 2016 at 05:39.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  41. #41
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    They aren't in the same class as Ponting, Sachin and Lara, and probably never will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    Root and KW are not IMO, not Amla level yet but are on the right path.
    Smith is vulnerable against a moving ball (be it swing or spin)
    Kolhi is not in the same bracket as those players as far as batsmanship is concerned.
    Issue with Kane is despite having a great technique, he's not able to score consistently in tough tours (England, SA and India).
    Last edited by Aman; 12th October 2016 at 05:41.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    There was no doubt about that. These guys have had a couple of great years, whereas the likes of Amla, Younis and to a lesser extent Cook and de Villiers have been consistently great for a decade or so.

    These four young batsmen, along with Babar Azam and De Kock can end up as ATGs, just like Starc, Amir, Boult, Rabada and Shah can end up as ATGs. However, they have a long way to go and have done nothing to be considered better than the old guard which is made up of Amla, Younis, Cook, de Villiers, Steyn and Anderson.
    Boult will definitely not finish as an ATG.

    At best he'll be a NZ great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul View Post
    Root is overrated but the rest aren't. As @Suleiman mentioned, Kohli has only flopped in England but has done well everywhere else. The success that Kohli enjoyed in Australia, our "Greatest Test batsman" won't.
    Australian decks are flatter than England's. YK might score on them. Don't count it out.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

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    Root is probably the only one who deserves to finish with an average of 50.

    Even then, I have question marks on his ability to convert starts into match winning tons.

    Seen him give it away plenty of times when set and not go in and punish teams like an ATG would.

    Amla, KP, AB, Younis and Cook are all above them IMHO.
    Last edited by Aman; 12th October 2016 at 05:54.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

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    It takes time but i don't think posters will let anyone be ATG in test anymore,if someone scores runs away it will either be flat pitches and if someone has high amount of wickets similar reasons.

    But tbf not a lot of players have shown promise like Lara,Sachin or Ponting(as they were in their earlier years) either but there was always a guy like Dravid who worked hard on his game and imo lot of players can be somewhere along that line.

    One bad away tour of any country is enough to label anyone as a failure in test cricket nowadays surprisingly Ponting doesn't fit that logic inspite of averaging 26(which too btw he improved in his last 2 tours) in India and playing 14 tests!!


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  46. #46
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    Even someone like Hashim Amla is not a certified ATG. That 311 he scored was on a track that was flat as hell. Not to mention that his career has not finished either. If he declines massively in the next two years i wouldn't rate him that highly. Neither are KP and AB. AB has declined a lot in last two years and KP was too inconsistent. Cook also has a habit of bashing weaker attacks and failing against better ones. The closest to ATG status in recent times was Michael Clarke imo. Played quite a few clutch knocks against the best test attack(home and away). If YK has a great Australian series he would be bordrline ATG as well.


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  47. #47
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    ATG Players are defined by their performance, They can't necessarily win a match single handed, Maybe ODi not in no way a test match.

    Calibre of a player is defined by their inning when odds are agsint them, when thier team is struggling and they counter attack and shock the opposition.

    In this regard, Williamson failed in India, but at some point he will come good. Kohli had such inning in Aus where we fell short of chasing. Smith stood up in England, I dont know much about Root. These players are shaping their career just fine, Comparing them with YK's 200 is just unfair. YK is not a benchmark, These 4 players already has a better ODI and T20 records

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    Root is probably the only one who deserves to finish with an average of 50.

    Even then, I have question marks on his ability to convert starts into match winning tons.

    Seen him give it away plenty of times when set and not go in and punish teams like an ATG would.

    Amla, KP, AB, Younis and Cook are all above them IMHO.
    " Deserve " term is actually not correct one. If someone has talent and temperament, He will end up with 50+ avg. Nobody deserves it, You have to make runs, simple as that. If Williamson keep scoring, he will end up with 50+ even though he doesnt deserve by your definition.

  49. #49
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    On the flipside, I'm still amazed at how Rahane almost never features in the discussion of the best Test batsmen. He is head and shoulders above any Indian Test batsman as far as I'm concerned. 50+ averages home and away. Almost equal number of hundreds home and away and multiple pressure knocks to boot. Plays fast when needed, rearguards effectively when needed and all in all a proven performer everywhere.

  50. #50
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    Let Rahane be Dravid 2.0, Never discussed much but the most effective one

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    They aren't in the same class as Ponting, Sachin and Lara, and probably never will be.

    Issue with Kane is despite having a great technique, he's not able to score consistently in tough tours (England, SA and India).
    Kane just scored 73, on what was the best SA track I've seen in a very long time.
    Everyone around him struggled against a relentless bowling attack. That 73 is worth 150+ IMHO. The centurion pitch was one for the ages.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Smith is very very good against spin.

    One average series in SL doesn't change it. Even then he averaged 41 in that series.
    I wouldn't use the term "very good".
    Cook is "very good" though.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Ok, may be asking for a match saving/winning innings is way too much expectation but what I find so disappointing is that none of these batsmen have played any innings of note in Asia. Winning requires team work but even in loss, a good batsman can play a memorable innings. I am yet to see ones such inning from them. Note that this is more for Smith, Williamson, and Root.
    Williamson has scored 192 in UAE which was a top quality knock.

    Root has played nothing amount of games in Asia. Just one series in UAE where he got 60, 80 odd. Let him play one more series.

    Smith has a century but on dead rubber.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    That doesn't count. His statement was about future.
    No it wasn't, the past is a part of their careers too.


    Politics trumps intelligence (pun intended).

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    Root is probably the only one who deserves to finish with an average of 50.

    Even then, I have question marks on his ability to convert starts into match winning tons.

    Seen him give it away plenty of times when set and not go in and punish teams like an ATG would.

    Amla, KP, AB, Younis and Cook are all above them IMHO.
    Root is very young.
    The issue of not converting starts is blown out of proportion IMHO.
    Root is a lot like AB (but has a better cricket brain and temperament), they both find cricket too easy.
    Cricket is so easy for them, they won't often go on barren spells where they fail to score a fifty+ in 6-10 innings like some players in their stature. They'll score 50's even when out of form, or get starts 40's and 30's.
    They'll score 50's-90's when everyone around them is falling like a deck of cards. That is how good they are.
    Take Clarke for example, he had plenty of barren spells, and I remember a commentator quipping without even looking at stats: "Clarke is on 35 today. When he gets such starts he usually gets a 50 and invariably converts them into big hundreds" , and he did exactly that scored 150 in the Ashes IIRC (Manchester?). After plenty of scores in the single and double digits. I think that was his first 30+ score in 10 innings or so. (NB. not that Clarke is in the same bracket as these two)
    Some players are like that and Clarke isn't the only one, but not Root and AB.
    I do hope Root finds that ruthlessness that AB lacks. It's too late for AB, but Root has age on his side. And has shown he's a match winner, whereas AB has never won anything for his country.
    In fact Root is ahead of AB (who is highly rated here on PP, perhaps they're confusing Tests and ODI's), that's how good he is already in his career. Carrying your team at such a young age is unbelievable (not too long ago Cook was struggling), while a senior is moaning about workload. But let's not derail nor deviate from the thread.
    Root won the Ashes on his own on the batting front, everyone was batting around him. He was scoring at 70 runs per hundred balls when Australia were skittled for nothing. Did the same in Jo'burg, scored a ton at 70+, and SA got dismissed for 80 as a group. Unbelievable talent is Root, he is far and away the best bat alongside Amla.

  56. #56
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    All of them has done great and if they continue to do same they will be atg.
    Regarding VK , he has more hundreds outside India , scored every where and everyplace barring England, 13 hundreds in 49 matches , according to some he is overrated test player.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneindia View Post
    How interesting, People here defending Williamson with the argument that One player can't be judge how 22 players play in a match, One person can't win a match etc. But when it comes to Sachin - He is overrated because he couldn't win matches for India?
    That is quite unfair but it is understandable that a player like Sachin is held to a much higher standard. I'm sure Viv, Lara and Bradman won matches single-handedly for their team, however much that is possible for a batsman.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    Root is very young.
    The issue of not converting starts is blown out of proportion IMHO.
    Root is a lot like AB (but has a better cricket brain and temperament), they both find cricket too easy.
    Cricket is so easy for them, they won't often go on barren spells where they fail to score a fifty+ in 6-10 innings like some players in their stature. They'll score 50's even when out of form, or get starts 40's and 30's.
    They'll score 50's-90's when everyone around them is falling like a deck of cards. That is how good they are.
    Take Clarke for example, he had plenty of barren spells, and I remember a commentator quipping without even looking at stats: "Clarke is on 35 today. When he gets such starts he usually gets a 50 and invariably converts them into big hundreds" , and he did exactly that scored 150 in the Ashes IIRC (Manchester?). After plenty of scores in the single and double digits. I think that was his first 30+ score in 10 innings or so. (NB. not that Clarke is in the same bracket as these two)
    Some players are like that and Clarke isn't the only one, but not Root and AB.
    I do hope Root finds that ruthlessness that AB lacks. It's too late for AB, but Root has age on his side. And has shown he's a match winner, whereas AB has never won anything for his country.
    In fact Root is ahead of AB (who is highly rated here on PP, perhaps they're confusing Tests and ODI's), that's how good he is already in his career. Carrying your team at such a young age is unbelievable (not too long ago Cook was struggling), while a senior is moaning about workload. But let's not derail nor deviate from the thread.
    Root won the Ashes on his own on the batting front, everyone was batting around him. He was scoring at 70 runs per hundred balls when Australia were skittled for nothing. Did the same in Jo'burg, scored a ton at 70+, and SA got dismissed for 80 as a group. Unbelievable talent is Root, he is far and away the best bat alongside Amla.
    You do speak a lot on AB moaning on workload. Before the England tour early this year, AB was reqd to bat up the order and then he was asked to keep to play one extra batsmen. Then post the failure of Amla captaincy ( something he wanted 2 years back but he didn't moan), he was asked to become the captain.

    Obviously, he can't do everything for the matter and still produce solid results. You should do what you are good at and what is your most important role. Hence, to concentrate on his batting which reqd the most he decided to give away his keeping.

    Yes, I agree he failed to carry his team on his shoulder but claiming that he only moans about workload is just taking it too far.

    He tried his best in world cup 2015 and at times filled the fifth bowling option but unfortunately couldn't take his team over the line.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherface58 View Post
    All of these are excellent batsmen, not greats (yet). But match-winning innings require support too. It is a team of 11 not 1.

    YK and Misbah score runs, Yasir and Amir take wickets, Sarfraz chips in with runs and his good keeping. In this way, a team does well. Not just YK.

    By your logic, Sanga and YK should not be considered greats since Sanga never won a test in India/Australia. YK never won in Australia.
    Not him, replace him with Wahab or Sohail

  60. #60
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    YK is the best Test batsman in the world. These young four are some leagues below, and have a long way to go.
    Last edited by Macho Man; 12th October 2016 at 08:07.

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    Yeah if the standard of test cricket hadn't been so low, the standard of bowling so pathetic and the pitches so flat and the bats so wide and big, these 4 wouldn't even make it to one of the FC teams in their respective country. Instead, they are the premier young batsmen these days. How cricket has fallen from the days of Richards, Gavaskar, Chappel and Miandad. Dont even get me started on the gulf in quality of cricket from the times of Grace, Richardson, Bradman, Hutton and Hobbs.


    I am not one of those who when expressing opinions confine themselves to facts.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    You do speak a lot on AB moaning on workload. Before the England tour early this year, AB was reqd to bat up the order and then he was asked to keep to play one extra batsmen. Then post the failure of Amla captaincy ( something he wanted 2 years back but he didn't moan), he was asked to become the captain.

    Obviously, he can't do everything for the matter and still produce solid results. You should do what you are good at and what is your most important role. Hence, to concentrate on his batting which reqd the most he decided to give away his keeping.

    Yes, I agree he failed to carry his team on his shoulder but claiming that he only moans about workload is just taking it too far.

    He tried his best in world cup 2015 and at times filled the fifth bowling option but unfortunately couldn't take his team over the line.
    First and foremost Amla never wanted to be captain.
    It was CSA's idea to make him captain to either 1) Divide AB's workload 2) Political reasons i.e. the first player of colour to captain SA on a permanent basis.

    AB himself has always been reluctant to lead SA from the get go, and has said so on record numerously. He's always been an indecisive figure. One minute he wants to captain, the next moment he doesn't. One moment he wants to keep, the next he doesn't.
    Going to England CSA wanted to reduce his workload following the abrupt retirement of Boucher. They wanted the then inform Tsolekile to keep wicket but AB insisted on keeping wicket so his mates can be in the starting XI. Did the same in Australia for Faf to make the team. When Faf's place was cemented, he didn't want to keep no more. Leaving CSA in a spot as they wanted to groom a new keeper whilst the likes of Kallis and Smith were still around.
    AB didn't even want the ODI captaincy initially. I'm surprised to hear people making insinuations about him wanting the Test captaincy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...africa-captain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafr...ry/602011.html

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    That is quite unfair but it is understandable that a player like Sachin is held to a much higher standard. I'm sure Viv, Lara and Bradman won matches single-handedly for their team, however much that is possible for a batsman.
    Viv played in a team so good that they were whitewashing oppositions even when Viv failed throughout the series and Lara won matches only as long as Ambrose/Walsh clicked.

    None of the batsmen mentioned in OP are over-rated. Kohli is not rated highly as a test batsman even by Indians. Root and Williamson are the pick of the batsmen lately. Williamson plays for a mediocre team, while Root has some good players around him who will help make his runs count.

    Despite his questionable form, i would rate Amla as the pick of the batsmen over the last few years.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    That is quite unfair but it is understandable that a player like Sachin is held to a much higher standard. I'm sure Viv, Lara and Bradman won matches single-handedly for their team, however much that is possible for a batsman.
    A batsman cant win a match single handedly, May be a bowler but not a batman ( in Test cricket). A bowler can take 12 to 15 wickets in a match but do you really think a single basman would outscore entire opposition? the problem is if pitch is good or opposition is weak, other batsmen would cash in, if pitch is tough and opposition is strong then its too difficult to outscore entire opposition.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk_Marshal_ View Post
    On the flipside, I'm still amazed at how Rahane almost never features in the discussion of the best Test batsmen. He is head and shoulders above any Indian Test batsman as far as I'm concerned. 50+ averages home and away. Almost equal number of hundreds home and away and multiple pressure knocks to boot. Plays fast when needed, rearguards effectively when needed and all in all a proven performer everywhere.
    That's why I did not bring up his name because he has played some great knocks at both home and away.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherface58 View Post
    All of these are excellent batsmen, not greats (yet). But match-winning innings require support too. It is a team of 11 not 1.

    YK and Misbah score runs, Yasir and Amir take wickets, Sarfraz chips in with runs and his good keeping. In this way, a team does well. Not just YK.

    By your logic, Sanga and YK should not be considered greats since Sanga never won a test in India/Australia. YK never won in Australia.
    Ok, does not have to be match saving or winning. It might be too much to ask but the expectation to play a memorable inning even in a loss is not unfair.

    However, with the unreal hype they have around them, I am just disappointed with their below par performance in testing conditions.

    Younis and Sanga have plenty of such knocks.

  67. #67
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    Only Kohli among the lot of slightly overrated in Tests as he's yet to cross an average of 50 which is a must for you to be counted among a top batsman. Even he has made important contributions many times.

    You can keep running them down with poor quality of bowlers, flat pitches but they can only perform against the opposition they get.

    BTW if you selecting one off series to call them overrated, you can always find chinks in every ATGs stats .

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoonyaSifar View Post
    Only Kohli among the lot of slightly overrated in Tests as he's yet to cross an average of 50 which is a must for you to be counted among a top batsman. Even he has made important contributions many times.

    You can keep running them down with poor quality of bowlers, flat pitches but they can only perform against the opposition they get.

    BTW if you selecting one off series to call them overrated, you can always find chinks in every ATGs stats .
    Even he is not overrated , 13 hundreds in 49 test matches, greats like Waugh , ponting, Sanga failed to do this, my reason is very simple if Ashwin is given negative marks for bowling on turning wicket then Virat should be also given points for batting on these wickets and still averaging 46 , see how some atg looked like on this wickets in last some years.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Ok, does not have to be match saving or winning. It might be too much to ask but the expectation to play a memorable inning even in a loss is not unfair.

    However, with the unreal hype they have around them, I am just disappointed with their below par performance in testing conditions.

    Younis and Sanga have plenty of such knocks.
    Williamson - 135 vs SL, 192 vs Pakistan at Sharjah
    Smith - A 200 and 140 in last Ashes
    Root - Quality knocks vs SA in SA recently, 76 on debut vs India
    Kohli - 4 100s in Aus

    Obviously you will now call each of those as either scored in easy conditions or not being memorable enough.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    First and foremost Amla never wanted to be captain.
    It was CSA's idea to make him captain to either 1) Divide AB's workload 2) Political reasons i.e. the first player of colour to captain SA on a permanent basis.

    AB himself has always been reluctant to lead SA from the get go, and has said so on record numerously. He's always been an indecisive figure. One minute he wants to captain, the next moment he doesn't. One moment he wants to keep, the next he doesn't.
    Going to England CSA wanted to reduce his workload following the abrupt retirement of Boucher. They wanted the then inform Tsolekile to keep wicket but AB insisted on keeping wicket so his mates can be in the starting XI. Did the same in Australia for Faf to make the team. When Faf's place was cemented, he didn't want to keep no more. Leaving CSA in a spot as they wanted to groom a new keeper whilst the likes of Kallis and Smith were still around.
    AB didn't even want the ODI captaincy initially. I'm surprised to hear people making insinuations about him wanting the Test captaincy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...africa-captain

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafr...ry/602011.html
    Not too sure of AB unwilling to lead the side.

    This is what he said:-

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafr...ry/750509.html

    "I will not beat around the bush. I'm disappointed that I'm not the captain," de Villiers told the Afrikaans newspaper Beeld. "Everyone has dreams and ambitions and hopes they will become reality but I accept the situation and will not let it come between me and Hashim. It would be very stupid of me if I let it affect my game and my role in the team. The choice is made. I wish Hashim all the best and will give him all of my support."

    "As vice-captain of the team I will closely work with Hashim and believe we can make a good combination," de Villiers said. "I accept that it is not always moonshine and roses and you can't expect things must always go your way. In the end, we are all working together in the best interests of South African cricket. I believe Hashim will make a success of the assignment. He is a very experienced and senior player and is a fine student of the game. We will all pull in the right direction do to make sure our cricket comes out on top again."

  71. #71
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    Ofcourse, Amla was neither selfish of captaincy either. He got the job because of his calm nature and coolness rightfully.

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    All 4 are going to make this thread and some of the comments look really stupid

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Not too sure of AB unwilling to lead the side.

    This is what he said:-

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafr...ry/750509.html

    "I will not beat around the bush. I'm disappointed that I'm not the captain," de Villiers told the Afrikaans newspaper Beeld. "Everyone has dreams and ambitions and hopes they will become reality but I accept the situation and will not let it come between me and Hashim. It would be very stupid of me if I let it affect my game and my role in the team. The choice is made. I wish Hashim all the best and will give him all of my support."

    "As vice-captain of the team I will closely work with Hashim and believe we can make a good combination," de Villiers said. "I accept that it is not always moonshine and roses and you can't expect things must always go your way. In the end, we are all working together in the best interests of South African cricket. I believe Hashim will make a success of the assignment. He is a very experienced and senior player and is a fine student of the game. We will all pull in the right direction do to make sure our cricket comes out on top again."
    like i stated AB is an idiot.
    One minute he says one thing the next he says something completely different.
    Are you aware AB requested CSA to relinquish his T20 captaincy? Guess why?
    Yep, you've got it right, "WORKLOAD".
    How can it be the very same player who felt overburdened want to captain the Test side? Specifically after he moaned to CSA on numerous occasions about one thing to the next, what were they to do?
    But hey at least his buddy is the T20 captain.
    I refuse to allow my country to be polarized by de Villiers. If he wants to quit, so be it.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Ball View Post
    Lara won matches only as long as Ambrose/Walsh clicked.
    Lara winning matches? Lara has like 4-5 tons in wins against non-minnows in test format in his entire career and he had Ambrose/Walsh in his team.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  75. #75
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    Don't think many people rate Kohli along with the other three in Tests.

    Anyway, I feel Root and Williamson are overrated here. Not saying they are poor or one dimensional by any means, but they are rated too high for their performances. Smith gets often criticised for his technique and performance when the ball swings or turns, Kohli gets grilled a lot for his poor record in England. Yet the other two get rated sky high and are regarded as the best batsmen in the world eventhough they are not perfect either.

    Root's stats are mostly under home conditions and averages like 35 in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand while having made just one ton from 21 innings. Somebody like Asad Shafiq averages just a tad higher with 2 tons from 16 innings. And it is alien conditions for Shafiq and Root is expected to do well in non asian conditions than an asian player. Sure just extrapolating on averages may not depict the true calibre of a player, still just one ton from 21 innings and a high score of 110 isn't a record befitting of the best player in the world in his comfort conditions. He has done well in alien conditions so far though, I'll give him that. He has a good average in Asia (although doesn't have a ton there) and the coming tour of India will show us what he is made of.

    Williamson isn't too different from Root either. Averages just around 38 in non asian conditions (Aus, NZ, SA and Eng) outside of his home. Comparatively Asian players like Kohli and Rahane average nearly 49 in those 4 countries. Moreover Williamson has a weak record in Asia as well, especially in India. Williamson vs Ashwin battle this series was similar to Kohli vs Anderson and the bowlers emerged as clear victors.

    The criticisms about Smith and Kohli are well known. Smith has a well rounded record stats wise but seems to struggle when the ball moves about. Kohli played a very uncharacteristic knock in his 200 last match, it had a lot of singles with few fancy shots and was a mind over matter knock. But it is yet to be seen if he can curb his attacking instincts. Also needs dominant performances like the other three consistently. Rahane is very underrated in the world. Averages above 50 outside asia as an Asian player. Has centuries all over the world. Was relatively weak in slow conditions but is starting to score runs in Asia as well. Can end up as a fine player in the Dravid mould. Cook is up there as well, he has a weakness against genuine top quality pace bowling but there are very few such pacers these days. Excellent in English conditions and in Asian conditions. Amla has probably the best record and is still up there at the top despite his scratchy form in the last year or so.

  76. #76
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    Rahane is a better batsman than Root, Williamson and Kohli



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    Agree with the OP. I can't think of any impact innings from these guys, maybe a couple of goods knocks at home to make their fans glorify them. They are incredibly overrated and it's strange when they are also glorified based on a small sample.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Don't think many people rate Kohli along with the other three in Tests.

    Anyway, I feel Root and Williamson are overrated here. Not saying they are poor or one dimensional by any means, but they are rated too high for their performances. Smith gets often criticised for his technique and performance when the ball swings or turns, Kohli gets grilled a lot for his poor record in England. Yet the other two get rated sky high and are regarded as the best batsmen in the world eventhough they are not perfect either.

    Root's stats are mostly under home conditions and averages like 35 in Australia, South Africa and New Zealand while having made just one ton from 21 innings. Somebody like Asad Shafiq averages just a tad higher with 2 tons from 16 innings. And it is alien conditions for Shafiq and Root is expected to do well in non asian conditions than an asian player. Sure just extrapolating on averages may not depict the true calibre of a player, still just one ton from 21 innings and a high score of 110 isn't a record befitting of the best player in the world in his comfort conditions. He has done well in alien conditions so far though, I'll give him that. He has a good average in Asia (although doesn't have a ton there) and the coming tour of India will show us what he is made of.

    Williamson isn't too different from Root either. Averages just around 38 in non asian conditions (Aus, NZ, SA and Eng) outside of his home. Comparatively Asian players like Kohli and Rahane average nearly 49 in those 4 countries. Moreover Williamson has a weak record in Asia as well, especially in India. Williamson vs Ashwin battle this series was similar to Kohli vs Anderson and the bowlers emerged as clear victors.

    The criticisms about Smith and Kohli are well known. Smith has a well rounded record stats wise but seems to struggle when the ball moves about. Kohli played a very uncharacteristic knock in his 200 last match, it had a lot of singles with few fancy shots and was a mind over matter knock. But it is yet to be seen if he can curb his attacking instincts. Also needs dominant performances like the other three consistently. Rahane is very underrated in the world. Averages above 50 outside asia as an Asian player. Has centuries all over the world. Was relatively weak in slow conditions but is starting to score runs in Asia as well. Can end up as a fine player in the Dravid mould. Cook is up there as well, he has a weakness against genuine top quality pace bowling but there are very few such pacers these days. Excellent in English conditions and in Asian conditions. Amla has probably the best record and is still up there at the top despite his scratchy form in the last year or so.
    Rahane is the real deal, he reminds me a great of how Dravid was left in the false idol Sachin soft runs Tendulkar shadow when it came to his perception amongst fans. I think Kohli is mostly glorified because of that beard he copied from Ahmed Shehzad and his Bollywood girlfiend, I guess the motorway bullying brings him more worshippers to.

    Anyhow, the criticism in the OP also stems from lack of impact innings. How many of these guys have won a Test away from their comfort zone single handedly? Rahane did at Lords in 2014, best bastman in the world and it's a big deal coming from the alleged hater of Indian Talunt like the swearing Nakli Sachin
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 12th October 2016 at 17:21.

  79. #79
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    Poor thread. All four are top class and not overrated at all.

    As for as the previous generation players are concerned, I think they will overtake Pietersen, Clarke, de Villiers etc. because they are more consistent and go missing less frequently while they will overtake Younis because they have more big innings away from their comfort zones. Root has already done better than Younis in SA (one a tougher pitch) and Kohli in Australia, and they are only getting started.

    Please don't bring his 200 at the Oval to prove his prowess. It was a great innings but he failed miserably in every other innings and he was one of the main reasons why we didn't win the series. If it was a 3 match series people would have been calling for his head now. For a so-called ATG and champion Test player, he had a poor series.

    Sangakkara, Cook and Amla will be difficult to overtake but they can be matched. They are/were extremely consistent and performed everywhere.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Poor thread. All four are top class and not overrated at all.

    As for as the previous generation players are concerned, I think they will overtake Pietersen, Clarke, de Villiers etc. because they are more consistent and go missing less frequently while they will overtake Younis because they have more big innings away from their comfort zones. Root has already done better than Younis in SA (one a tougher pitch) and Kohli in Australia, and they are only getting started.

    Please don't bring his 200 at the Oval to prove his prowess. It was a great innings but he failed miserably in every other innings and he was one of the main reasons why we didn't win the series. If it was a 3 match series people would have been calling for his head now. For a so-called ATG and champion Test player, he had a poor series.

    Sangakkara, Cook and Amla will be difficult to overtake but they can be matched. They are/were extremely consistent and performed everywhere.
    Just like Williamson went missing in India, Smith in Sri Lanka, and Root scoring soft runs in the UAE.

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