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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    When has he scored in Asia? This is like his 3rd recent tour of Asia. Smith is the biggest FTB in the test cricket ATM, though he is very good in ODIs because ODIs have flat tracks.

    Lol he scored a century vs Sri Lanka

  2. #162
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    For some reason I can never accept Smith as an ATG. He is so awkward. But then he scores loads of runs and has a strong character. Of all the batsmen in your list VK is the most aggressive and Root has the best technique. Kane is just above VK and below Root in tests. VK is the best in T20Is with Root, Smith to follow. Kane is not cut out for T20Is. In ODIs, there's a toss up between SMith and VK with VK maybe edging it by a whisker because of his chasing ability. They are all ATG material and will be ATGs in the next 3 to 4 years

  3. #163
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    Smith scoring on a pitch that is offering something for the spinners, @The_Odd_One is in hiding.

  4. #164
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    Smith, Kohli and Root are ATG material, Kane is not.

    Too many holes in his record, and aside for a 2 year golden period, he struggles to convert.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  5. #165
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    Smith haters in hiding @Mamoon

  6. #166
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    I personally think Smith is the best batsman in world.

    kohli, williamson and Root needs to play knocks like smith's in the quarterfinal, semi final and final of a world cup to be at his level.

    He was so brilliant in the quarterfinal while Watson on the other end was dancing.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Needless obsession with Younis.

    Kohli, Root, Smith and Williamson are all better than Younis and will be remembered as better batsmen. All four are top quality.
    Not in these conditions. Never. Let's see how well they fair outside. Younis has scored hundreds and not just hundreds but big, big hundreds everywhere he's played.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhony View Post
    For some reason I can never accept Smith as an ATG. He is so awkward. But then he scores loads of runs and has a strong character. Of all the batsmen in your list VK is the most aggressive and Root has the best technique. Kane is just above VK and below Root in tests. VK is the best in T20Is with Root, Smith to follow. Kane is not cut out for T20Is. In ODIs, there's a toss up between SMith and VK with VK maybe edging it by a whisker because of his chasing ability. They are all ATG material and will be ATGs in the next 3 to 4 years
    That's because he's an accidental batsman. He was never meant to be a batsman, not even a bowling all rounder. A bowler who could bat at most. However, he was so immensely talented as a batsman that he did not even need technique to succeed. Technique is overrated, in my opinion.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarfiBabarHaris View Post
    I personally think Smith is the best batsman in world.

    kohli, williamson and Root needs to play knocks like smith's in the quarterfinal, semi final and final of a world cup to be at his level.

    He was so brilliant in the quarterfinal while Watson on the other end was dancing.
    I just think Smith is going through an epic peak that Ponting went through. Thrashing all opposition, scoring runs all around the world and in both tests and ODI's, also in world cups.

    Kohli on other hand has just entered his peak in the last 8-12 months, lets see how long it goes and how high can Kohli make it.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    Not in these conditions. Never. Let's see how well they fair outside. Younis has scored hundreds and not just hundreds but big, big hundreds everywhere he's played.
    Younis is a quality player of spin, but is average against pace. Doesn't have the ability to dominate them and is mostly in survival mode.

    Smith, Kohli, Root and Williamson are more complete players. It's only a matter of them having played less than half the number of matches Younis has played.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Smith haters in hiding @Mamoon
    They will target Kohli now.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis is a quality player of spin, but is average against pace. Doesn't have the ability to dominate them and is mostly in survival mode.

    Smith, Kohli, Root and Williamson are more complete players. It's only a matter of them having played less than half the number of matches Younis has played.
    It's the height of ignorance to call these guys better than Younis. Younis at 40+ is a much better player of spin than any of these guys are right now, in their primes. As for pace, he scored two pretty great daddy hundreds in England and Australia very recently and averages over 50 there, along with over 40 in New Zealand. All of this is over the course of 100+ games so the sample-size is not the issue.

    Younis Khan is an ATG. These four have a long way to go until they get close. Give it another four years at least.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  13. #173
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    Williamson. Kohli, lately.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It's the height of ignorance to call these guys better than Younis. Younis at 40+ is a much better player of spin than any of these guys are right now, in their primes. As for pace, he scored two pretty great daddy hundreds in England and Australia very recently and averages over 50 there, along with over 40 in New Zealand. All of this is over the course of 100+ games so the sample-size is not the issue.
    Younis Khan is not an ATG, and all four are superior batsmen to Younis with a higher ceiling. They have ATG potential unlike Younis.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis Khan is not an ATG, and all four are superior batsmen to Younis with a higher ceiling. They have ATG potential unlike Younis.
    Younis Khan most definitely is an ATG, he has the stats, performances, aura and X-Factor that all ATGs have.

    No, Kohli, Smith, Root and Kane are not superior batsmen to someone who has played double the number of games, scored double the number of runs and has a much more balanced record all around the world.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Younis Khan most definitely is an ATG, he has the stats, performances, aura and X-Factor that all ATGs have.

    No, Kohli, Smith, Root and Kane are not superior batsmen to someone who has played double the number of games, scored double the number of runs and has a much more balanced record all around the world.
    Lol at aura and x-factor. Younis is universally regarded as a boring batsman who is not aesthetically pleasing at all.

    No one considers him an ATG but you, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just like you are alone in your belief that Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Smith scoring on a pitch that is offering something for the spinners, @The_Odd_One is in hiding.
    Smith has played a good inning here and should be praised. I actually like Smith who has transformed into a top batsman through tremendous hard work. However, he is far from being an ATG at this point in time. He needs to perform like this more often in alien conditions to be rated as high as some of the greats of the past. This is the type of performance that was missing from his resume. He averaged 40 in Asia but had zero impact. Hopefully, it is a start from him and he will bat like this more often.

    And BTW, I am at least no blind in my hatred for some cricketers and have the capability to praise a good performance when I see one.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Lol at aura and x-factor. Younis is universally regarded as a boring batsman who is not aesthetically pleasing at all.

    No one considers him an ATG but you, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just like you are alone in your belief that Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time.
    Said by someone who thinks Ashwin is an iconic cricketer and will increase PSL viewership. LOL

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Lol he scored a century vs Sri Lanka
    Younis also scored a century in South Africa, England, and Australia.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Younis also scored a century in South Africa, England, and Australia.
    And Smith has a century in all of those countries. .

  21. #181
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    If a Pakistani/ Indian batsman averaged 60 after 50 tests with an away average of 58 while averaging over 40 in every country, he would be unquestionably the greatest since Bradman.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    And Smith has a century in all of those countries. .
    Smith is a FTB and HTB, even though his away record (avg 58) is better than Younis and that too without the help of playing in BD and Zimbabwe

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Lol at aura and x-factor. Younis is universally regarded as a boring batsman who is not aesthetically pleasing at all.

    No one considers him an ATG but you, but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just like you are alone in your belief that Amla is the second best ODI opener of all time.
    Yes, because clearly, you have to be a Sehwag to have an aura. Smith, Kallis, Younis, Gavasker, Dravid and Waugh were all pretty boring batsman and half of them didn't even have the ability to accelerate yet when they come onto the field, everyone takes notice.

    Yes, because this forum is your whole world. I suggest you go out a bit more and talk to the everyday cricket fan and then ask them about Khan's status and whether or not he is a legendary test batsman.
    Last edited by Haroon786; 25th February 2017 at 11:55.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  24. #184
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    Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> Kohli, Root and Williamson. Smith is a future ATG, Kohli and Root have a lot to prove. Williamson shouldn't even be mentioned besides Smith, even Warner is better than Williamson

  25. #185
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    Why do people compare Steven Smith to Root, Kohli, Williamson?

    Smith is miles ahead in stats. His away average (59.62) is better than Kohli's home average (59.60) ! Averages over 40 in every single country including rank turners of India and Sri Lanka (where he faced Herath, Jadeja and Ashwin). What has Root, Kohli and Williamson done to be mentioned alongside Smith? Those 3 are on par with Warner tbh

    Root, Kohli and Williamson might become future ATG but they're nowhere close to that now (Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Tendulkar all averaged above 56 in their prime). Smith is comfortably ahead of any test batsman in the world atm.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Said by someone who thinks Ashwin is an iconic cricketer and will increase PSL viewership. LOL
    Yeah, keep living in your world where Ashwin will go unsold in the PSL. One of the most ridiculous things I've read on this forum in a long, long time. It is so hilarious and delusional that it is actually depressing.

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Smith is miles ahead in stats. His away average (59.62) is better than Kohli's home average (59.60) ! Averages over 40 in every single country including rank turners of India and Sri Lanka (where he faced Herath, Jadeja and Ashwin). What has Root, Kohli and Williamson done to be mentioned alongside Smith? Those 3 are on par with Warner tbh

    Root, Kohli and Williamson might become future ATG but they're nowhere close to that now (Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Tendulkar all averaged above 56 in their prime). Smith is comfortably ahead of any test batsman in the world atm.
    No doubt he's ahead of Root and Kane. Kohli, however, has gotten close of late, although Smith has been successful for a far longer period of time.

    I'd have it
    Smith >> Kohli >>>>> Warner >> Root and then the rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Yes, because clearly, you have to be a Sehwag to have an aura. Smith, Kallis, Younis, Gavasker, Dravid and Waugh were all pretty boring batsman and half of them didn't even have the ability to accelerate yet when they come onto the field, everyone takes notice.

    Yes, because this forum is your whole world. I suggest you go out a bit more and talk to the everyday cricket fan and then ask them about Khan's status and whether or not he is a legendary test batsman.
    The irony is too strong.

    I live in Pakistan, you live in Canada. I have much, much greater exposure to the everyday/casual cricket fan than you do.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but the casual cricket fans (who represent the majority of the population) do not care about Test cricket and are too busy with their lives to even watch a session. For them, cricket is all about ODIs and T20s and these casuals fans consider Afridi Pakistan's biggest legend in the last 15-20 years and consider Misbah a useless tuk tuk player. That is why Afridi is by far a bigger superstar in Pakistan than Misbah or Younis can ever hope to be.

    They do not care about Younis Khan's exploits in Test cricket and do not hype him up as a legend because of the failure that he was in ODIs and T20s. In fact, Younis Khan's pathetic innings in Mohali and the way he got embarrassed at the World Cup two years ago is still fresh in their memory, while they have already forgotten about his double-hundred in England last year or the way he decimated Australia in the UAE 3 years ago.

    Secondly, Younis is not in the league of players like Gavaskar, Waugh and Dravid. He does not command the same respect as these players and no matter how much you repeat yourself, he is not a legend and an ATG like these guys. These are the names that pop up when the best Test batsmen of all time are discussed, but Younis Khan's name does not make the list.

    Even for the serious/educated cricket followers, Younis is not an ATG due to multiple reasons. Firstly, apart from the SA tour in 2013, Younis did not play any tough overseas cricket between 2006 and 2016 - an entire decade. However, he finally got his chance in England and Australia last year to cement himself as an ATG but he blew it.

    The way he danced around like tail-ender for 6 innings in England made him a laughing stock, and although that innings at The Oval was great, it was not enough to override his previous failures and he still had a mediocre series. Yes he helped Pakistan win that match and square the series, but the fact that were playing with 10 men for the first 3 Tests was a major reason why they didn't win the series. One good innings at Old Trafford or Edgbaston could have saved either of these matches.

    In NZ, the ATG batted like Chris Martin on the green-tops and averaged 4. In Australia, apart from the golden duck in the toughest conditions in that series (pink ball, evening session, Gabba), he did not look out of sorts and played a decent knock in the second innings, but he could not produce any big innings and had a twin failure at the MCG.

    Yes he was great in Sydney but it was a dead-rubber. The team would have been better served had he produced that at The Gabba or the MCG.

    The fact that he failed in 14 out of the 17 innings he played outside Asia in 2016 killed any chance he had of finishing as an ATG.


    Hilarious, ain't it?
    Yes, the idea that Ashwin will go unsold in the PSL is certainly hilarious.

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The irony is too strong.

    I live in Pakistan, you live in Canada. I have much, much greater exposure to the everyday/casual cricket fan than you do.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but the casual cricket fans (who represent the majority of the population) do not care about Test cricket and are too busy with their lives to even watch a session. For them, cricket is all about ODIs and T20s and these casuals fans consider Afridi Pakistan's biggest legend in the last 15-20 years and consider Misbah a useless tuk tuk player. That is why Afridi is by far a bigger superstar in Pakistan than Misbah or Younis can ever hope to be.

    They do not care about Younis Khan's exploits in Test cricket and do not hype him up as a legend because of the failure that he was in ODIs and T20s. In fact, Younis Khan's pathetic innings in Mohali and the way he got embarrassed at the World Cup two years ago is still fresh in their memory, while they have already forgotten about his double-hundred in England last year or the way he decimated Australia in the UAE 3 years ago.

    Secondly, Younis is not in the league of players like Gavaskar, Waugh and Dravid. He does not command the same respect as these players and no matter how much you repeat yourself, he is not a legend and an ATG like these guys. These are the names that pop up when the best Test batsmen of all time are discussed, but Younis Khan's name does not make the list.

    Even for the serious/educated cricket followers, Younis is not an ATG due to multiple reasons. Firstly, apart from the SA tour in 2013, Younis did not play any tough overseas cricket between 2006 and 2016 - an entire decade. However, he finally got his chance in England and Australia last year to cement himself as an ATG but he blew it.

    The way he danced around like tail-ender for 6 innings in England made him a laughing stock, and although that innings at The Oval was great, it was not enough to override his previous failures and he still had a mediocre series. Yes he helped Pakistan win that match and square the series, but the fact that were playing with 10 men for the first 3 Tests was a major reason why they didn't win the series. One good innings at Old Trafford or Edgbaston could have saved either of these matches.

    In NZ, the ATG batted like Chris Martin on the green-tops and averaged 4. In Australia, apart from the golden duck in the toughest conditions in that series (pink ball, evening session, Gabba), he did not look out of sorts and played a decent knock in the second innings, but he could not produce any big innings and had a twin failure at the MCG.

    Yes he was great in Sydney but it was a dead-rubber. The team would have been better served had he produced that at The Gabba or the MCG.

    The fact that he failed in 14 out of the 17 innings he played outside Asia in 2016 killed any chance he had of finishing as an ATG.




    Yes, the idea that Ashwin will go unsold in the PSL is certainly hilarious.
    I don't care about the opinions of the random chai wala on your street corner or the thailay wala who sells vegetables wearing an Afridi shirt. Even then, I've very confident that Younis Khan is highly admired by the Pathans in Pakistan, even if they haven't seen a game of cricket since the 90s.

    He has a great fan following in Pakistan, just by virtue of the numbers he puts out for Pakistan. Everyone knows about and are eagerly waiting for his 10,000 runs. Even if they won't watch a single delivery of the upcoming test series, they'll want Younis to get there and "Pakistan ka naam roshan karein". The only people who don't have any respect for Younis Khan are angsty teenagers who think they are hip by disrespecting one of the greatest batsmen to play the game.

    He's not mentioned in the league of those guys right now because he is still playing. Once he retires and hangs up his boots, the nostalgia will kick in and people will reminisce about him just like they do about Dravid et all. That's what happens all the time with players who are not flashy and great entertainers.

    Not playing overseas in his prime years were to his loss rather than his benefit. Had he played in South Africa a couple of times more in that decade, he would have a better average in the country. The fact that he averaged 50+ in England and Australia when he was a 40 year old puts to rest any doubts about his ability to do well in those countries. You're forgetting the tour of New Zealand where did very well back in 2009.

    He was out of form for the first three tests and at the age of 40, form can desert you very quickly. Despite this, he showed who he is by playing the best innings of the tour on the quickest pitch that Pakistan had to bat on. That double definitely erased all his previous failures. Great innings tend to do this.

    Yes, he had a horrible two games in New Zealand. Big deal. In Australia, he was fantastic and it is a shame he could not convert his hundred into a double. An average of 50+ in Australia for a Pakistani batsman is superb.

    The two daddy hundreds he scored in 2016 outside Asia puts him in elite company. You are free to downplay Younis Khan, the rest of the world definitely won't.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    I don't care about the opinions of the random chai wala on your street corner or the thailay wala who sells vegetables wearing an Afridi shirt.
    Yet, you were the one who told me to go out a bit more and talk to the everyday cricket fan and then ask them about Khan's status and whether or not he is a legendary test batsman.

    I have and I showed you the true picture which you did not like, and now you don't care about their opinion?
    Even then, I've very confident that Younis Khan is highly admired by the Pathans in Pakistan, even if they haven't seen a game of cricket since the 90s.
    I'm a Pathan myself, and it is our unfortunate trait that we put our ethnicity above everything. I don't want to generalize but it holds true for the majority. They will support Pathan players more than anyone even if they are not performing well.

    A mediocre Pathan player will be better for them than a quality non-Pathan player, and apparently every Pathan player that is not in the team is a victim of the Punjab-Sindh lobby, but even amongst Pathans, Afridi is by far the most popular cricketer and enjoys a much higher status than Younis, and that's because he has been a much bigger player than Younis in ODIs and T20s.
    [quote]
    He has a great fan following in Pakistan, just by virtue of the numbers he puts out for Pakistan. Everyone knows about and are eagerly waiting for his 10,000 runs. Even if they won't watch a single delivery of the upcoming test series, they'll want Younis to get there and "Pakistan ka naam roshan karein". The only people who don't have any respect for Younis Khan are angsty teenagers who think they are hip by disrespecting one of the greatest batsmen to play the game.

    He has fan following and so does Misbah, but how does that fan following compare to Afridi's? Not even comparable. Afridi is the most popular Pakistani cricketer of this generation (and one of the most popular of all time) because he caters to the wider audience.

    Younis is of course more popular and well-respected than Misbah because he has better achievements than Misbah. Both are Test specialists and get hate for their failures in LOIs, but Younis is a much better Test player. The fact that is the most popular Test player in Pakistan is not a surprise, but you were the one who told me to go out and seek the opinion of the casual cricket fans, an opinion that you are dismissive of because it differs from yours, because they do not share your belief that he is an ATG and Pakistan's biggest legend since Wasim and Inzamam.

    He's not mentioned in the league of those guys right now because he is still playing. Once he retires and hangs up his boots, the nostalgia will kick in and people will reminisce about him just like they do about Dravid et all. That's what happens all the time with players who are not flashy and great entertainers.
    Those guys had a legendary status before they retired. Gavaskar, Waugh and Dravid were on a much higher pedestal at the same stage of their careers as Younis is at now. They were universally regarded as ATGs and not just be a few extremely biased and irrational fans, which is the case with Younis.

    Not playing overseas in his prime years were to his loss rather than his benefit. Had he played in South Africa a couple of times more in that decade, he would have a better average in the country. The fact that he averaged 50+ in England and Australia when he was a 40 year old puts to rest any doubts about his ability to do well in those countries. You're forgetting the tour of New Zealand where did very well back in 2009.
    It might have been to his loss, but all these had, could, would, should, maybe etc. is thrown out of the window when you look at a career in reflection. The fact is that those tours did not happen and Younis' career is pretty much over, and he will not be playing in those countries again. He cannot be awarded brownie points for performances that did not happen. His chance of finishing as an ATG is over.

    This of course is different from a young player with potential to do well in the future. For example, Kohli failed in England in 2014 but he gets leeway for it because he is a much improved player now and he will play in England again, where he will have the opportunity to set his record straight. However, if for some reason, he does not play England again, his failure in 2014 will stand out and he will not get brownie points for what he could or may have done in England at any other point.

    He was out of form for the first three tests and at the age of 40, form can desert you very quickly. Despite this, he showed who he is by playing the best innings of the tour on the quickest pitch that Pakistan had to bat on. That double definitely erased all his previous failures. Great innings tend to do this.
    It was not about form. He was technically exposed and and he got a head-start at The Oval when he faced Moeen's pies first up, which allowed him to settle quickly. 6 consecutive failures and getting out in similar fashion and facing similar problems each innings is not just poor form.

    However, you have to love the double-standards: Kohli failed in England but that was not poor form, he was simply technically exposed because he has an apparent weakness against pace. Never mind how good his record is in Australia, South Africa and NZ. The next excuse is that he did well on flat wickets, but yeah let's ignore the fact that all of Younis Khan's hundreds overseas have been on flat wickets as well.

    Nonetheless, when it comes to Younis, every pitch becomes a minefield and every failure because a matter of form and not technique and ability.

    Also, it didn't erase his previous failures because in spite of his big innings which made his overall stats for the series look good, he was not awarded the MOS because Misbah had a much better series than him and contributed with the bat regularly. Not only him but the other batsmen apart from Hafeez and Masood were more consistent than him as well and had a better overall series.

    Yes, he had a horrible two games in New Zealand. Big deal. In Australia, he was fantastic and it is a shame he could not convert his hundred into a double. An average of 50+ in Australia for a Pakistani batsman is superb.
    It is a big deal because that has been the standard procedure of his whole career. He has never been good enough against lateral movement and continues to fish outside the off-stump after 100 Tests and 16 years of experience.

    He was anything but 'fantastic' in Australia. These are his scores when the series was alive:

    0, 65, 21, 24

    What a fantastic series for the ATG.

    The two daddy hundreds he scored in 2016 outside Asia puts him in elite company. You are free to downplay Younis Khan, the rest of the world definitely won't.
    No it doesn't. He failed in 14 out of 17 innings, and one of these innings was just a paltry score of 65 where Shafiq scored 137, Azhar scored 70 and all the tail-enders scored 30+.

    The other innings was a 175* in a dead rubber, had he produced that in Melbourne or the Gabba, Pakistan would have avoided a whitewash, but the certified 'ATG' thought it was below his dignity to perform when the series was alive.

    The innings at The Oval was his best performance of the year but he still had a mediocre series and was a major reason why Pakistan went into the 4th Test 2-1 down and not 1-1 or 2-1 up.

    Not just me, the rest of the world does not consider him an ATG either. He is a Pakistani great/legend, which is a massive deal, but he is not an ATG. You are free to consider him the best batsman of all time if you wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Smith is miles ahead in stats. His away average (59.62) is better than Kohli's home average (59.60) ! Averages over 40 in every single country including rank turners of India and Sri Lanka (where he faced Herath, Jadeja and Ashwin). What has Root, Kohli and Williamson done to be mentioned alongside Smith? Those 3 are on par with Warner tbh

    Root, Kohli and Williamson might become future ATG but they're nowhere close to that now (Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Tendulkar all averaged above 56 in their prime). Smith is comfortably ahead of any test batsman in the world atm.
    They are all captains of their team. Play at 3 or 4. Aged 25-28. About to enter the primes. Smith is ahead for the past year, but that probably won't be the case for the next 5-6 years. Warner is not as good an player and he gets a bit lucky due to flat tracks. Plus he is older than all of them and doesn't play at 3 or 4.

  32. #192
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    [QUOTE=Mamoon;9125150]Yet, you were the one who told me to go out a bit more and talk to the everyday cricket fan and then ask them about Khan's status and whether or not he is a legendary test batsman.

    I have and I showed you the true picture which you did not like, and now you don't care about their opinion?


    I'm a Pathan myself, and it is our unfortunate trait that we put our ethnicity above everything. I don't want to generalize but it holds true for the majority. They will support Pathan players more than anyone even if they are not performing well.

    A mediocre Pathan player will be better for them than a quality non-Pathan player, and apparently every Pathan player that is not in the team is a victim of the Punjab-Sindh lobby, but even amongst Pathans, Afridi is by far the most popular cricketer and enjoys a much higher status than Younis, and that's because he has been a much bigger player than Younis in ODIs and T20s.
    He has a great fan following in Pakistan, just by virtue of the numbers he puts out for Pakistan. Everyone knows about and are eagerly waiting for his 10,000 runs. Even if they won't watch a single delivery of the upcoming test series, they'll want Younis to get there and "Pakistan ka naam roshan karein". The only people who don't have any respect for Younis Khan are angsty teenagers who think they are hip by disrespecting one of the greatest batsmen to play the game.

    He has fan following and so does Misbah, but how does that fan following compare to Afridi's? Not even comparable. Afridi is the most popular Pakistani cricketer of this generation (and one of the most popular of all time) because he caters to the wider audience.

    Younis is of course more popular and well-respected than Misbah because he has better achievements than Misbah. Both are Test specialists and get hate for their failures in LOIs, but Younis is a much better Test player. The fact that is the most popular Test player in Pakistan is not a surprise, but you were the one who told me to go out and seek the opinion of the casual cricket fans, an opinion that you are dismissive of because it differs from yours, because they do not share your belief that he is an ATG and Pakistan's biggest legend since Wasim and Inzamam.



    Those guys had a legendary status before they retired. Gavaskar, Waugh and Dravid were on a much higher pedestal at the same stage of their careers as Younis is at now. They were universally regarded as ATGs and not just be a few extremely biased and irrational fans, which is the case with Younis.



    It might have been to his loss, but all these had, could, would, should, maybe etc. is thrown out of the window when you look at a career in reflection. The fact is that those tours did not happen and Younis' career is pretty much over, and he will not be playing in those countries again. He cannot be awarded brownie points for performances that did not happen. His chance of finishing as an ATG is over.

    This of course is different from a young player with potential to do well in the future. For example, Kohli failed in England in 2014 but he gets leeway for it because he is a much improved player now and he will play in England again, where he will have the opportunity to set his record straight. However, if for some reason, he does not play England again, his failure in 2014 will stand out and he will not get brownie points for what he could or may have done in England at any other point.



    It was not about form. He was technically exposed and and he got a head-start at The Oval when he faced Moeen's pies first up, which allowed him to settle quickly. 6 consecutive failures and getting out in similar fashion and facing similar problems each innings is not just poor form.

    However, you have to love the double-standards: Kohli failed in England but that was not poor form, he was simply technically exposed because he has an apparent weakness against pace. Never mind how good his record is in Australia, South Africa and NZ. The next excuse is that he did well on flat wickets, but yeah let's ignore the fact that all of Younis Khan's hundreds overseas have been on flat wickets as well.

    Nonetheless, when it comes to Younis, every pitch becomes a minefield and every failure because a matter of form and not technique and ability.

    Also, it didn't erase his previous failures because in spite of his big innings which made his overall stats for the series look good, he was not awarded the MOS because Misbah had a much better series than him and contributed with the bat regularly. Not only him but the other batsmen apart from Hafeez and Masood were more consistent than him as well and had a better overall series.



    It is a big deal because that has been the standard procedure of his whole career. He has never been good enough against lateral movement and continues to fish outside the off-stump after 100 Tests and 16 years of experience.

    He was anything but 'fantastic' in Australia. These are his scores when the series was alive:

    0, 65, 21, 24

    What a fantastic series for the ATG.



    No it doesn't. He failed in 14 out of 17 innings, and one of these innings was just a paltry score of 65 where Shafiq scored 137, Azhar scored 70 and all the tail-enders scored 30+.

    The other innings was a 175* in a dead rubber, had he produced that in Melbourne or the Gabba, Pakistan would have avoided a whitewash, but the certified 'ATG' thought it was below his dignity to perform when the series was alive.

    The innings at The Oval was his best performance of the year but he still had a mediocre series and was a major reason why Pakistan went into the 4th Test 2-1 down and not 1-1 or 2-1 up.

    Not just me, the rest of the world does not consider him an ATG either. He is a Pakistani great/legend, which is a massive deal, but he is not an ATG. You are free to consider him the best batsman of all time if you wish.
    The chai-walas are not the everyday cricket fans. I pity you if they are the only people you speak to about your cricket. You go out and ask any cricket fan, who isn't on Pakpassion about Younis Khan and they'll tell you that he's a legend. You can be as dismissive about him as you please and keep claiming that he's not at the Dravid level but the fact of the matter is that he most definitely is and will go down as one of the top five batsmen from Asia.

    In your last post you claimed that Younis has no fan-following because he isn't a good LOI player and now you are admitting that he is at worst, the second most popular cricketer in Pakistan currently. Which is it?

    He gets more respect outside Pakistan than he gets from his own people. This is because Pakistan fans are ungrateful and fickle and don't realize what they have. When he came out to bat first up in Australia, the commentator introduced him as "... it brings the legend of Younis Khan to the crease". He's well respected throughout thr cricketing world, even though he has thrown tantrums and caused headaches for the PCB.

    It was definitely a loss that he wasn't able to play in South Africa and New Zealand more, in his prime. Despite that, he has a pretty balanced overseas record with centuries in every country and as mentioned before, averages 50+ in both England and Australia. When you take into account that he is invincible against spin, these are epic numbers.

    Dead rubber or not, he was under pressure and against Starc and Hazlewood, he produced an instant classic and played the best innings by a Pakistani on Aussie soil in decades.

    In England, it was not the batsmen who lost games two and three but the bowlers. In fact, it was just a great performance by the English side and blaming Younis Khan for those defeats is childish and immature. He did however score a superb 200 in the last game, without which, the scoreline would have been 3:1, instead of 2:2 and Pakistan would never reach the summit of the test rankings. That was an outstanding innings and the context in which he scored it is something only ATGs do.

    You're in your own, little world with regards to Younis. He's a legendary batsman and right up there with any other ATG. The likes of Kohli and Kane will be greats if they get anywhere close to him in the future.

    Anyways, this thread is not about Younis so no need to continue this debate any further.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  33. #193
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    [QUOTE=Bilal7;9126266]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Yet, you were the one who told me to go out a bit more and talk to the everyday cricket fan and then ask them about Khan's status and whether or not he is a legendary test batsman.

    I have and I showed you the true picture which you did not like, and now you don't care about their opinion?


    I'm a Pathan myself, and it is our unfortunate trait that we put our ethnicity above everything. I don't want to generalize but it holds true for the majority. They will support Pathan players more than anyone even if they are not performing well.

    A mediocre Pathan player will be better for them than a quality non-Pathan player, and apparently every Pathan player that is not in the team is a victim of the Punjab-Sindh lobby, but even amongst Pathans, Afridi is by far the most popular cricketer and enjoys a much higher status than Younis, and that's because he has been a much bigger player than Younis in ODIs and T20s.


    The chai-walas are not the everyday cricket fans. I pity you if they are the only people you speak to about your cricket. You go out and ask any cricket fan, who isn't on Pakpassion about Younis Khan and they'll tell you that he's a legend. You can be as dismissive about him as you please and keep claiming that he's not at the Dravid level but the fact of the matter is that he most definitely is and will go down as one of the top five batsmen from Asia.

    In your last post you claimed that Younis has no fan-following because he isn't a good LOI player and now you are admitting that he is at worst, the second most popular cricketer in Pakistan currently. Which is it?

    He gets more respect outside Pakistan than he gets from his own people. This is because Pakistan fans are ungrateful and fickle and don't realize what they have. When he came out to bat first up in Australia, the commentator introduced him as "... it brings the legend of Younis Khan to the crease". He's well respected throughout thr cricketing world, even though he has thrown tantrums and caused headaches for the PCB.

    It was definitely a loss that he wasn't able to play in South Africa and New Zealand more, in his prime. Despite that, he has a pretty balanced overseas record with centuries in every country and as mentioned before, averages 50+ in both England and Australia. When you take into account that he is invincible against spin, these are epic numbers.

    Dead rubber or not, he was under pressure and against Starc and Hazlewood, he produced an instant classic and played the best innings by a Pakistani on Aussie soil in decades.

    In England, it was not the batsmen who lost games two and three but the bowlers. In fact, it was just a great performance by the English side and blaming Younis Khan for those defeats is childish and immature. He did however score a superb 200 in the last game, without which, the scoreline would have been 3:1, instead of 2:2 and Pakistan would never reach the summit of the test rankings. That was an outstanding innings and the context in which he scored it is something only ATGs do.

    You're in your own, little world with regards to Younis. He's a legendary batsman and right up there with any other ATG. The likes of Kohli and Kane will be greats if they get anywhere close to him in the future.

    Anyways, this thread is not about Younis so no need to continue this debate any further.
    I don't see why you have a contempt for chai-walas or thailay-walas or why you have no regard for their opinion. For someone who walks around with a high moral compass and with a shahada in his signature, you seem to have considerable contempt for chai-walas and thailay-walas, as if they are lesser human beings than me and you.

    Nonetheless, you are misinformed if you think that my exposure is limited to chai-walas or thailay-walas only. It is a fact that Test cricket is not popular in Pakistan and apart from the cricket nerds who spend half of their day talking about cricket over the internet, the general public simply does not care about this format or its stars. It is not just limited to Pakistani players and Younis. For example, no casual cricket fan will take Cook over Warner, even though Cook is a much better player in the most prestigious format than the FTB, simply because Warner is by far a more exciting and superior player in ODIs and T20s.

    Younis and Misbah's popularity has been helped by the fact that Pakistan have been rubbish in LOIs for a long time now and haven't produced any stars. Younis and Misbah would have been nobodies in terms of popularity in the 90's, and someone like Younis is still less popular than the likes of Afridi, Akhtar and Razzaq, even though he is a much better Test player than any of them.

    The whole point of this discussion was that you are/were adamant that Younis is considered as an ATG by everyone in Pakistan, which is simply not true. No doubt he is highly respect for his Test career, but the casuals fans do not consider him Pakistan's biggest cricketing hero and legend of the last 10-15 years, because they don't care about Tests and Afridi is their hero in Limited Overs.

    If you consider him an ATG then that is perfectly fine because you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't project it on others. Neither the casuals fans nor the serious fans consider him an ATG. Create a poll here on PP and see how many people agree with you that he is an ATG. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between a Pakistani great and an ATG.

    You consider Younis an ATG batsman but the majority don't; I consider Cook an ATG batsman but the majority don't. The difference is that I don't claim that everyone considers him an ATG and if you go out and ask people, they will attest to it as well. I simply state it as my opinion, knowing fully well that people have their reasons why they don't consider him an ATG. You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge that apart from you, majority of both Pakistani and non-Pakistani fans do not consider him an ATG.

    Oh and by the way, the bowlers did not lose us the Old Trafford and Edgbaston Tests. Our batsmen, including Younis, simply cracked under pressure in both Tests. The Old Trafford pitch was not a green-top where they got rolled over for 198 in the first innings, but they simply collapsed under pressure after England piled up 589.

    Similarly in Edgbaston, the bowlers did really well to dismiss England for less than 300 on a flat wicket and although they bowled poorly in the second innings, they weren't to be blamed for the fact that we lost 7 wickets for 77 runs on day 5 and lost the match.

    Not sure about the top 5 Asian batsmen in history: He is below Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Miandad, Sangakkara and Inzamam, and Kohli has overtaken him already, who has the potential and probably will reach the level of Tendulkar.

    Younis is a top 10 Asian batsman at best, not top 5. Overall, he is probably not even in the top 30. Nowhere near an ATG, but obviously a Pakistan great.

  34. #194
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    [QUOTE=Mamoon;9127391]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post

    I don't see why you have a contempt for chai-walas or thailay-walas or why you have no regard for their opinion. For someone who walks around with a high moral compass and with a shahada in his signature, you seem to have considerable contempt for chai-walas and thailay-walas, as if they are lesser human beings than me and you.

    Nonetheless, you are misinformed if you think that my exposure is limited to chai-walas or thailay-walas only. It is a fact that Test cricket is not popular in Pakistan and apart from the cricket nerds who spend half of their day talking about cricket over the internet, the general public simply does not care about this format or its stars. It is not just limited to Pakistani players and Younis. For example, no casual cricket fan will take Cook over Warner, even though Cook is a much better player in the most prestigious format than the FTB, simply because Warner is by far a more exciting and superior player in ODIs and T20s.

    Younis and Misbah's popularity has been helped by the fact that Pakistan have been rubbish in LOIs for a long time now and haven't produced any stars. Younis and Misbah would have been nobodies in terms of popularity in the 90's, and someone like Younis is still less popular than the likes of Afridi, Akhtar and Razzaq, even though he is a much better Test player than any of them.

    The whole point of this discussion was that you are/were adamant that Younis is considered as an ATG by everyone in Pakistan, which is simply not true. No doubt he is highly respect for his Test career, but the casuals fans do not consider him Pakistan's biggest cricketing hero and legend of the last 10-15 years, because they don't care about Tests and Afridi is their hero in Limited Overs.

    If you consider him an ATG then that is perfectly fine because you are entitled to your opinion, but please don't project it on others. Neither the casuals fans nor the serious fans consider him an ATG. Create a poll here on PP and see how many people agree with you that he is an ATG. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between a Pakistani great and an ATG.

    You consider Younis an ATG batsman but the majority don't; I consider Cook an ATG batsman but the majority don't. The difference is that I don't claim that everyone considers him an ATG and if you go out and ask people, they will attest to it as well. I simply state it as my opinion, knowing fully well that people have their reasons why they don't consider him an ATG. You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge that apart from you, majority of both Pakistani and non-Pakistani fans do not consider him an ATG.

    Oh and by the way, the bowlers did not lose us the Old Trafford and Edgbaston Tests. Our batsmen, including Younis, simply cracked under pressure in both Tests. The Old Trafford pitch was not a green-top where they got rolled over for 198 in the first innings, but they simply collapsed under pressure after England piled up 589.

    Similarly in Edgbaston, the bowlers did really well to dismiss England for less than 300 on a flat wicket and although they bowled poorly in the second innings, they weren't to be blamed for the fact that we lost 7 wickets for 77 runs on day 5 and lost the match.

    Not sure about the top 5 Asian batsmen in history: He is below Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Miandad, Sangakkara and Inzamam, and Kohli has overtaken him already, who has the potential and probably will reach the level of Tendulkar.

    Younis is a top 10 Asian batsman at best, not top 5. Overall, he is probably not even in the top 30. Nowhere near an ATG, but obviously a Pakistan great.
    I have nothing against them but like you said, these are the people who don't watch or care about test cricket at all. The rest of the population does watch and care about test cricket. If you think that the only people that are interested in test cricket are on this forum, then you are totally ignorant about this matter.

    Everything you said is simply your perception of test cricket's popularity, which is misguided if you believe that nobody out of Pakpassion watches the format. From my personal experiences, I have seen Younis rated right up there with the greats in test match cricket by both Pakistani and Indian fans.

    Inzamam? Kohli? Yet another highly deluded comment by you. Inzamam gets nothing but respect from me but his test match career was nowhere near that of Younis Khan's and Kohli has hardly played 50 test matches. Younis will also finish his career on par with Dravid and Sangakkara so he's right up there as one of the top five test batsmen produced by Asia. That alone makes him an ATG. Thanks for proving my point.

    Considering how Younis has beaten Clarke, KP by miles and ran Rahul Dravid close in polls here despite not having as many achievements as he does now, your perception yet again fails you.

    Bringing this back on topic, comparing Younis to Kane, Kohli, Smith and Root is like comparing Ronaldo to Neymar, Bale, Hazard and Reus. One has been bossing it for years while the others have had a few good years but have a long way to go.


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  35. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post

    I have nothing against them but like you said, these are the people who don't watch or care about test cricket at all. The rest of the population does watch and care about test cricket. If you think that the only people that are interested in test cricket are on this forum, then you are totally ignorant about this matter.

    Everything you said is simply your perception of test cricket's popularity, which is misguided if you believe that nobody out of Pakpassion watches the format. From my personal experiences, I have seen Younis rated right up there with the greats in test match cricket by both Pakistani and Indian fans.

    Inzamam? Kohli? Yet another highly deluded comment by you. Inzamam gets nothing but respect from me but his test match career was nowhere near that of Younis Khan's and Kohli has hardly played 50 test matches. Younis will also finish his career on par with Dravid and Sangakkara so he's right up there as one of the top five test batsmen produced by Asia. That alone makes him an ATG. Thanks for proving my point.

    Considering how Younis has beaten Clarke, KP by miles and ran Rahul Dravid close in polls here despite not having as many achievements as he does now, your perception yet again fails you.

    Bringing this back on topic, comparing Younis to Kane, Kohli, Smith and Root is like comparing Ronaldo to Neymar, Bale, Hazard and Reus. One has been bossing it for years while the others have had a few good years but have a long way to go.
    Younis better than Inzamam.

    Younis on par with Dravid and Sangakkara.

    Younis ahead of Clarke and Pietersen by miles.

    That is when know the delusion is incurable.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Younis better than Inzamam.

    Younis on par with Dravid and Sangakkara.

    Younis ahead of Clarke and Pietersen by miles.

    That is when know the delusion is incurable.
    Younis is most definitely better than Inzamam. Try being knowledgeable for once and look at their stats. I never said that Younis is ahead of Clarke and KP by miles; he was picked as the better batsman than both in polls on this forum by the vast majority of posters.

    Younis will end his career on par with Dravid and Sangakkara. This is debatable. What is delusional is your claim that Kohli is a better test batsman than Younis Khan.


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  37. #197
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    Kane Williamson is definitely overrated in ODIs at least. Both Guptill and Taylor are much better than him.

  38. #198
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    Smith is the best test player of the four.
    Kohli is the best odi player of the four.

    Root and Williamson are well behind IMO.The impact is nowhere close to the former two.

  39. #199
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    Kohli is quite overrated in test. Him, Root and Williamson are way below Smith and shouldn't even be compared

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    More egg on the OPs face, Root comfertabley the top scorer on a slow and low wicket .

    Smith and Kohli have proved you wrong in recent months. Root doing a good job now as well.

  41. #201
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    Good inning by Root..

    He will be team's biggest weapon in Champions Trophy this year.

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    More egg on the OPs face, Root comfertabley the top scorer on a slow and low wicket .

    Smith and Kohli have proved you wrong in recent months. Root doing a good job now as well.
    Eggs on the face of those who can't even read and comprehend the thread title.

    Read it again and then try again.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Eggs on the face of those who can't even read and comprehend the thread title.

    Read it again and then try again.

    Why didn't you include LO?

  44. #204
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    Steve Smith ovverated in tests eh?

  45. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Steve Smith ovverated in tests eh?
    He's better than all his competitors combined. No kidding

  46. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    He's better than all his competitors combined. No kidding

    The best test batsmen in the world.

    Will go down as one of Australia and crickets greats. Plenty of humble pie will be served

  47. #207
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    Abt 2 years ago some folks were laughing when I said Smith is the best of the lot.

    He is far ahead.


    #MPGA

  48. #208
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    Other than Williamson, others are rated appropriately..

  49. #209
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    Kohli is way overrated in tests. He is an ATG in Odis but in tests he isnt the best test bat even in his team.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  50. #210
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    Kohli is perhaps hugely overrated in test. Isn't even close to smith really

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Why didn't you include LO?
    Because Smith is a very good ODI batsman, has played clutch knocks and won a WC.

    I'm glad he has started playing impactful innings in tests too.

  52. #212
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    Kohli keeps reminding me of Lara.. Can dominate the series; get mammoth scores then completely flop the next series

    Repeat.

  53. #213
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    Smith and Kane are underrated.
    Root rated fairly.
    Kohli overrated.

    Kohli is the Hashim Amla of test cricket. People criticize Amla for his lack of impact in odis but what has Kohli done in tests? Yet another competitive series and he is gone missing. Almost no impactful match winning innings in his test career. Only thing he has over Amla is that age is on his side and may be he can have 'actual impact' later in his test career. Amla has 1 world cup to show and Kohli has almost a ~10 year test career left. Both are good guys off field, all the best!


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

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