What more must Mohammad Asif do?

[Slog]

It's really hilarious to read some posts above

Does the champion of disgraced cricketer know that this is the same domestic where other bowlers have been averaging better than Asif and were shown to be mediocre on their return. You would think going by the post above that the competitiveness of cricket is above international cricket.

Butt especially. He has had a failure of a domestic season and the numbers show that

[Blistering Barnacle]

And I know that Amir was more guilty than Asif. It's written in black and white in the ICC Tribunal report which found them guilty.

No, it isn't. This is you just making stuff up to back up your opinion.

[Junaids]

It's really hilarious to read some posts above

Does the champion of disgraces know that this is the same domestic where other bowlers have been averaging better than Asif and were shown to be mediocre on their return

Butt especially. He has had a failure of a domestic season and the numbers show that

On the one hand people like you say that Asif's bowling average of 18.63 has come in bowling-favourable conditions and means nothing.

But Salman Butt has a QEA average this season of 42.7 while Khurram Manzoor averaged 39, Nasir Jamshed averaged 25 and Mohammad Hafeez averaged 22.80.

And, of course, Salman Butt has just hit a century in the QEA Final.

You can't have it both ways. If green wickets devalue Mohammad Asif's average, then surely they make Salman Butt's even better.

And he's already averaging 20 - yes, TWENTY - more than Mohammad Hafeez.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Again most posters here are using Pakistani green tops as benchmark for Asif's form.

Even Amir would wreak havoc on these wickets.

I would like to see Asif on a normal wicket, before making any judgement, whether he's good enough, otherwise he will be manhandled by Warner to oblivion.

Doesn't look like a green top to me. Wapda openers are batting freely. Let's see how Asif bowls in the 2nd innings to see if got any help from the pitch in the 1st innings for his 4 wickets.

In any case his game stats are head and shoulders above the other bowlers playing in the final especially his economy rate.

[Junaids]

No, it isn't. This is you just making stuff up to back up your opinion.

ICC Tribunal Report, Doha, 5 February 2011 page 86

Mr Asif

The following considerations were urged upon as by Counsel for Mr Mohammad Asif, Mr Cameron, who stressed Mr Asif's lesser involvement in the fix; the absence of any reward received by him; and his cooperation with the ACSU. The first two we accept;.................

There you have it, @Blistering Barnacle. The ICC accepted that Asif's offence was smaller than Amir's and that he was not paid or otherwise remunerated.

So please stop inventing false accusations against him.

[fawad_wellwisher]

On the one hand people like you say that Asif's bowling average of 18.63 has come in bowling-favourable conditions and means nothing.

But Salman Butt has a QEA average this season of 42.7 while Khurram Manzoor averaged 39, Nasir Jamshed averaged 25 and Mohammad Hafeez averaged 22.80.

And, of course, Salman Butt has just hit a century in the QEA Final.

You can't have it both ways. If green wickets devalue Mohammad Asif's average, then surely they make Salman Butt's even better.

And he's already averaging 20 - yes, TWENTY - more than Mohammad Hafeez.

Another reason for them not getting selected is that everyone including PCB were quite presumptuous in assuming that both Asif and Butt were finished as players and there is no way they will be able to make it back into the side. For Amir the argument was that age is on his side.

But now with performances like these in a final of a prestigious domestic tournament being shown on live TV they have really thrown the gauntlet at the selectors.

A Pakistan team with all three tainted players included till now unthinkable can soon become reality.

[shaz619]

@Junaids has been right about everything people can't argue against him with fact.

AUS pitches, pink ball, D/N games etc

Right about Asif

And as much as it pains me, right about the big bad butt to

[Slog]

Representing Pakistan is not anyone's right so the 'perverting course of justice' like is lol-worthy.

If that was the case every player could sue the board

[Junaids]

Well said, me, Talent Spotter and @Junaids have advocated Asif's skill and had faith in him prior to this QEA final; our belief in him has been justified emphatically. Its all down to the selectors now and it doesn't look so good sadly

In some ways we were the only ones actually focusing on Asif's performance and the selected replacements' non-performance.

Everybody else seems to be hung up on their own embarrassment and disgrace from 2010.

What they don't grasp is that Mohammad Asif and Sohail Khan are practically the same age and Salman Butt and Azhar Ali are too.

The banned players were targeted in the first place in 2010 because they were better than them and the newspaper wanted the best and most famous players in its sting.

And they are still better than the people the same age whom they were always selected ahead of. And they have six years less wear and tear on their bodies.

[fawad_wellwisher]

Join the club!

But the thing is, he has a suspended ICC ban until next September.

Which really takes care of that better than anything else could!

It is more complicated than that. The path needs to be cleared before he (and Butt) can ever hope to play for Pakistan.

Let's assume PCB convenes a committee to look into selecting the 2 and give the green light to Inzi. What will they be looking at?

- Odds of committing another crime of a similar or different nature
- Fitness risks. Can they (especially Asif) withstand the rigors of international cricket?
- Image of the team at the international level (You have will 3 ex-cheats instead on 1 right now)
- Player acceptance. Current players reluctantly accepted Amir. How much persuasion would they to accept Asif and Butt?
- Constant heckling from opposing team's fan disrupting team morale.
- And secondary risks like giving the Indians another excuse not to play with Pakistan.

I don't see anyone in the PCB setup who has the desire and ability to setup a defined process that paves the path for these 2 to return to international cricket.

The only way I see the 2 coming back is after a major debacle in Australia where the team goes though major restructuring effort.

[shaz619]

In some ways we were the only ones actually focusing on Asif's performance and the selected replacements' non-performance.

Everybody else seems to be hung up on their own embarrassment and disgrace from 2010.

What they don't grasp is that Mohammad Asif and Sohail Khan are practically the same age and Salman Butt and Azhar Ali are too.

The banned players were targeted in the first place in 2010 because they were better than them and the newspaper wanted the best and most famous players in its sting.

And they are still better than the people the same age whom they were always selected ahead of. And they have six years less wear and tear on their bodies.

This is another point which is not touched on as much but is incredibly meaningful, in fact Asif's fitness would have been on par with Amirs right now had he been invested in much earlier.

Here's the thing though, everything you've said to advocate Asif's return are all bang on! but the reason why people disagree with you is,

Asif shot himself in the foot with his recent comments

Asif regardless of whether he was convicted in the past etc has been somewhat troublesome in the past

Bringing Amir in took a bit of an effort, having two spot fixers in the team may be a bit too much for the dressing room to handle regardless of the fact that Asif's guilt was not as much as Amirs

The Chairman of the PCB and his buddies simply do not want Asif given his past baggage

Asif is old, 34 and due to this reason the PCB don't see getting more then a couple of years out of him. But this also stems from their lack of knowledge in not appreciating Asif's skill and understanding that he doesn't have as much wear and tear as a sohail khan etc

Asif had received chances in the past after various incidents to return to the team and the PCB no longer want to give him opportunity at redemption, they also don't appreciate his confidence which comes across as arrogance; again this stems from their lack of knowledge when it comes to his prowess as a bowler and what made him so brilliant.

Am sorry Junaids, I want him to be in the team as much as you but I'd be incredibly shocked if he is picked for the Australia.

[Blistering Barnacle]

ICC Tribunal Report, Doha, 5 February 2011 page 86

Mr Asif

The following considerations were urged upon as by Counsel for Mr Mohammad Asif, Mr Cameron, who stressed Mr Asif's lesser involvement in the fix; the absence of any reward received by him; and his cooperation with the ACSU. The first two we accept;.................

There you have it, @Blistering Barnacle. The ICC accepted that Asif's offence was smaller than Amir's and that he was not paid or otherwise remunerated.

So please stop inventing false accusations against him.

Link?

[godzilla]

Nonsense.

His QEA average this season is 18.6 compared with a lifetime 23.6.

Put differently, his bowling average this season is 5 better than Sadaf Hussain.

Anyway, all he had to do was prove his form - and in the de facto semi-final and final he has.

Show me when he "massively failed" this season. I'm all eyes.

sure of course, since i wont make the bizarre comparison to him five years ago and would rather the sensible comparison of him versus his peers today on the same pitches. its obvious from your many droningly repetitive comments that statistics and the concept and crucial importance of sample size is far, far beyond your grasp - but that said, six games dont make a summer. we dont know if it was one off conditions, a bit of outstanding form like woakes last summer for example, or whether its a sign of underlying quality. time will tell, and i would reiterate, no one in world cricket is stupid enough to pick a player based on a few overs.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...05#post8980705

more specifically, prior to this game when the post was written:

"it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to compare his "average" over four or five games (that in of itself is not enough data to draw any conclusions from for anyone with an iota of common sense) to his average 6 years ago. if you are hell bent on making a comparison with that pointlessly small number of data points, the only thing that does make sense is to compare him to his peers if they are all vying for a place in the senior team, and based on the QEA, he doesnt even feature in the top 15. when he cant even beat 15 mostly no name bowlers in the QEA this season, happening right now, how is that a demonstration of 1) match fitness 2) ability to outbowl his peers 3) ability to suddenly leapfrog his peers to outperform them at the highest level of the sport?

complete rubbish.

most wickets: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/quaid-...ype=tournament

he comes at ... doesnt make it into the top 46

but thats not fair, he was injured virtually all tournament, but when he bowled, he was amazing and back to his very best without any doubt, right? so his average will be world beating since that adjusts for overs bowled?

on averages? he comes in at about 37th on the list

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/quaid-...ype=tournament

but thats not fair either, hes a strike bowler, back to his best, and no one in pakistan in five years has been able to demonstrate a better ability at taking wickets, right...? his strike rate will show how averages dont matter, and wickets taken dont matter.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/quaid-...ype=tournament

well im afraid he doesnt even make the top 50 or so and cant make that list. - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?253538-Arguments-for-and-against-a-Mohammad-Asif-recall&p=8980705#post8980705"

[MMHS]

Above everything, Asif was injured after 3-4 matches when the team was selected. He had very little chance, but his injury didn't help. If PCB wanted him rehabilitated, they could have sent him to A tours in U.K. Or ZIM. His only slim chance was probably play all the FC matches (I guess about 8/9) prior to the NZ team selection and perform admiarably both in terms of stats & fitness.

[khiska]

Well all the stats for and against Asif are fair, the good thing that I heard by the commies was that the 6 - 7 representatives from Selection panel had come out to watch the final... hopefully that has some influence over Asif's selection

[Grunge101]

It is more complicated than that. The path needs to be cleared before he (and Butt) can ever hope to play for Pakistan.

Let's assume PCB convenes a committee to look into selecting the 2 and give the green light to Inzi. What will they be looking at?

- Odds of committing another crime of a similar or different nature
- Fitness risks. Can they (especially Asif) withstand the rigors of international cricket?
- Image of the team at the international level (You have will 3 ex-cheats instead on 1 right now)
- Player acceptance. Current players reluctantly accepted Amir. How much persuasion would they to accept Asif and Butt?
- Constant heckling from opposing team's fan disrupting team morale.
- And secondary risks like giving the Indians another excuse not to play with Pakistan.

I don't see anyone in the PCB setup who has the desire and ability to setup a defined process that paves the path for these 2 to return to international cricket.

The only way I see the 2 coming back is after a major debacle in Australia where the team goes though major restructuring effort.

Valid points all of them..However i think there is a way around for each.

Fitness
We dont know if hes exactly fit enough to play..that is the reality of it..he has had no serious match experience before the QA trophy.. however we have seen people like Irfan and Sohail play in recent times, the fitness of whom were more questionable if anything.Lets look at his recent workload

15-10-2016 bowled 16 overs in the first innings and 13 in the second

22-10-2016 bowled 23 overs in the first innings and 16 in the second

29-10-2016 bowled 10 overs in the first innings and then 34 in the second

so he bowled 44 overs in one match and had niggles after that..but hes back again within a month and bowling well again...

03-12-2016 bowled 26 overs in the only innings he bowled in.

Heckling

We had major fears over that with Amir as well and sure minor incidents may have happened at certain grounds, it was no big deal really..now he plays like another regular player and u see no fuss being made before or during the match.

Acceptability within the team

well ill take a different approach here..the players dont ''decide'' who gets to play or not.. they are all employees of the PCB who get paid to play and should be grateful for just being there..if youre giving importance to players forming groups within the team supporting or antagonizing the inclusion of a player, then youre wanting to go back to the nineties era of Wasim and Waqar where player power was massive and the big 3-4 got whatever they wanted. We all know how that turned out.

If somebody doesnt like his inclusion, he should be free to walk out. Thats his prerogitive.Nobody gets to assume the ''sword of God'' role here and shove their morally hypocrisy down everyones throat. If the board is ok with his inclusion, that should be it. no ifs and buts.

International image

that is one point against which i probably have no reasonable rebuttal.. It is goign to affect us negatively. Amir was a different case alltogether, the fact that he was less/as much/more guilty that Asif is irrelevant here because he was seen in a much more sympathetic light by the international cricketing community. there were guys like Holding and Atherton openly supporting his return. that is not going to happen with Asif. there will be way more eye brows raised and more sneers made.

If it were down to me though, i would still go through with it. he committed a crime, he paid his dues. Now just get on with it. im positive the negative response will tone down too with time as people get used to it.

[boomboom6]

You do realize, that if Asif doesn't perform in Australia (provided he gets selected on some fantasy) , you guys would still make excuses like

"he's the best fast bowler in Pakistan"

"there is no one better"

and continue to select him.


His performance or lack of performance is a non-entity in these arguments.

Most of these arguments had already decided that Asif was a potential ATG and he was ready for selection even before a ball had been bowled in Quaid Trophy.

A lot people just jumped on the clamorous bandwagon, after they saw Asif performing on incredibly green wickets and picking up wickets.

Thing is, I don't mind Asif being selected if he is actually that good.

However, the same happened with Amir, and he is nowhere near that good as his proponents make him out to be. Needs a lot of work.

Asif is already at the wrong end of 30. What excuses would be made for his performance? That Once Upon a Time in Wonderland he was good?

Well that we all, know.

Unfortunately it's not good enough.

All these scenarios though, come into the picture if Asif is selected, which again looks like a Wonderland myth at the moment.

Way to miss the context behind Amir's struggles which are more to do with his slip catching mates letting him down over and over again.

As for Asif, his game was never built on pace, he'll be fine and is quite capable of being effective for 4-5 years.

[TalhaSyed]

I think the first thing he can, and he should, do is stop running his mouth and slagging off players in the team.

Just my two cents

[fast1975]

You're not a Pakistani, and you see no reason to support inferior players.

Yet you bought tickets a month ago, when it wasn't even certain that Asif would make it. Why would you do that? And now you are worried he might not make it? (which was always on the cards).

And to top it of, you're not Pakistani , but you are begging for Pakistani selectors to select their bowler, more than some Pakistanis themselves.

Have you put this much effort into Australian cricket selectors? Or English ones , considering you are English.

Even your name is a typical Pakistani name, but you could be forgiven for taking that as a nick, considering you were besotted with Pakistani cricket.

But your claims sometimes flabbergast me.

hey I am a Pakistani, 100% pakistani and I do not support this team at all. why shd I? this team has no character and no heart. didnt you see how they buckled again and again against WI and then in NZ. one of the weakest ever tailenders we have. weak bowlers as well.

i do not support this team because this team does not have heart and brain. i am a proud pakistani and i need a proud brave team to represent me

[Abdullah719]

hey I am a Pakistani, 100% pakistani and I do not support this team at all. why shd I? this team has no character and no heart. didnt you see how they buckled again and again against WI and then in NZ. one of the weakest ever tailenders we have. weak bowlers as well.

i do not support this team because this team does not have heart and brain. i am a proud pakistani and i need a proud brave team to represent me

Did you support the team in England? I hope not. Not much point of conditional 'support'.

[fast1975]

Way to miss the context behind Amir's struggles which are more to do with his slip catching mates letting him down over and over again.

As for Asif, his game was never built on pace, he'll be fine and is quite capable of being effective for 4-5 years.

no sir that is not right. yes catches have been dropped of aamir bowling but ask anyone who knows a bit about cricket and he will tell you aamir is not the same bowler on technical basis. not even 50%. his swing is not there. he does not know how to bring the ball back in to right handers. he is too predictable. he does not know how to use the crease to swing the ball anymore. once the ball gets old, he is useless. no reverse swing either.

[fast1975]

Did you support the team in England? I hope not. Not much point of conditional 'support'.

this is my viewpoint and i Hope I am allowed to present it as I am not insulting anyone.

the team has serious structural as well as temperamental issues. the batting completely collapsed at least 2-3 times against england, at least 2 times against weak WI and at least 3 times against Kiwis. they simply dont have skill which is required at this level and on top of that, they dont have heart. what happened on the last day in 2nd test match in NZ was so embarrassing......yes lack of skill was an issue but just look at their faces. they were scared, dejected and defeated as they came to bat. I cannot support such team. I need brave team with a big heart. like javed miandad, saleem yousaf, moeen khan, rashid latif, ammir sohail, big heart players.

[Abdullah719]

this is my viewpoint and i Hope I am allowed to present it as I am not insulting anyone.

the team has serious structural as well as temperamental issues. the batting completely collapsed at least 2-3 times against england, at least 2 times against weak WI and at least 3 times against Kiwis. they simply dont have skill which is required at this level and on top of that, they dont have heart. what happened on the last day in 2nd test match in NZ was so embarrassing......yes lack of skill was an issue but just look at their faces. they were scared, dejected and defeated as they came to bat. I cannot support such team. I need brave team with a big heart. like javed miandad, saleem yousaf, moeen khan, rashid latif, ammir sohail, big heart players.

Pakistan has historically always had batting collapses, so if that's the measure to back the team then you can never support them.

I don't think this team is temperamentally weak. They have won plenty of close matches.

In NZ, they messed up with the preparation and then had confused tactics during both matches.

Criticism is fine but support should not be conditional. Unless the team is not playing to win, they always have my support. Even those players who I may criticise.

[fast1975]

Pakistan has historically always had batting collapses, so if that's the measure to back the team then you can never support them.

I don't think this team is temperamentally weak. They have won plenty of close matches.

In NZ, they messed up with the preparation and then had confused tactics during both matches.

Criticism is fine but support should not be conditional. Unless the team is not playing to win, they always have my support. Even those players who I may criticise.

well, look at the indian team to make my point. i cannot count but in last 18 months, at least 6-8 times, their top orders did not do that well but the tailenders refused to throw the wickets away, stood their ground and helped india winning the games. if we are temperamentally strong, why are our tailenders so sissy and one of the worst ever. they dont eve try not even in UAE on helpful grounds.

rahat ali, wahab riaz, mohamma irfan, amohammad amir, imran khan, i mean they are all total burden and this is not how modern cricket is being played. how can i support such coward attitude? why cant they work hard in nets and improve their batting skills a bit more? this is just one example and i can certainly cite more.

[Abdullah719]

well, look at the indian team to make my point. i cannot count but in last 18 months, at least 6-8 times, their top orders did not do that well but the tailenders refused to throw the wickets away, stood their ground and helped india winning the games. if we are temperamentally strong, why are our tailenders so sissy and one of the worst ever. they dont eve try not even in UAE on helpful grounds.

rahat ali, wahab riaz, mohamma irfan, amohammad amir, imran khan, i mean they are all total burden and this is not how modern cricket is being played. how can i support such coward attitude? why cant they work hard in nets and improve their batting skills a bit more? this is just one example and i can certainly cite more.

Our tailenders are definitely a problem. You can check the stats thread here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?253709

While other teams have improved, our tail has gotten worse. This is yet another systematic problem, where bowlers aren't encouraged to work on their batting with coaches - if they are, the results aren't showing.

However, this isn't something that would stop me from supporting the team.

[fast1975]

Our tailenders are definitely a problem. You can check the stats thread here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?253709

While other teams have improved, our tail has gotten worse. This is yet another systematic problem, where bowlers aren't encouraged to work on their batting with coaches - if they are, the results aren't showing.

However, this isn't something that would stop me from supporting the team.

ok...while i cannot support this current lot as it is refusing to learn from its mistakes (tailenders being lazy and cowards, bowlers not using the conditions again and again, top order not applying themselves fully etc) but i would say that overall you have a valid logic, so i do concede this debate in your favor. thx

[Junaids]

Our tailenders are definitely a problem. You can check the stats thread here: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?253709

.

Even though he can't bat, I firmly believe that Mohammad Asif is part of the solution to this, not the problem.

There are basically two ways to build the bowling attack of a Test team.

Option 1: Four specialist bowlers, even if they are fairly moderate. This is what you have now: two stars in Amir and Yasir backed up by 2 mediocrities rostered in from Rahat, Wahab and Sohail.

Option 2: Three high-class bowlers supported by 2 all-rounders, of whom one might be simply a bowler who bats a bit.

Mohammad Asif opens up Option 2, because he is a top class third bowler which means that you can then select two all-rounders in the form of Aamer Yamin/Mohammad Nawaz/Faheed Ashraf as the Batting all-rounder at Number 7 and Hasan Ali or Amad Butt as the Bowling all-rounder at Number 8.

[Speedster777]

hey I am a Pakistani, 100% pakistani and I do not support this team at all. why shd I? this team has no character and no heart. didnt you see how they buckled again and again against WI and then in NZ. one of the weakest ever tailenders we have. weak bowlers as well.

i do not support this team because this team does not have heart and brain. i am a proud pakistani and i need a proud brave team to represent me

It seems the players like Wahab, Rahat, Azhar, Shafiq and company have no desire no motivation to win. They don't even bother to improve their game. No passion for the game just going through the motions.

[Abdullah719]

It seems the players like Wahab, Rahat, Azhar, Shafiq and company have no desire no motivation to win. They don't even bother to improve their game. No passion for the game just going through the motions.

One of those names doesn't belong in that list.

[Big Mac]

One of those names doesn't belong in that list.

Agreed, Rahat's game cannot be improved because he is already world-class in every cricketing skill.

[fast1975]

It seems the players like Wahab, Rahat, Azhar, Shafiq and company have no desire no motivation to win. They don't even bother to improve their game. No passion for the game just going through the motions.

the issue is that pakistani players do not push themselves unless they know they can be replaced. they are lazy unfortunately. did you guys see rahat ali attitude on the ground? dull, slow, no passion.

we need that these players to know that they can replaceable.

you know what, bring mohammad asif into picture right away, so that sohail khan is threatened. asif has some cricket left in it. i saw his full video today ball by ball. he is good. far far better than sohail. i like sohail passion but he is not that good and will never be

bring junaid khan into the picture again. bring sadaf into pic. put pressure on aamir and wahab riaz

these are just some examples.

glad umar akmal and shezad are kicked out. do not overinvest. they are rotten players and will always be rotten.

[Abdullah719]

Agreed, Rahat's game cannot be improved because he is already world-class in every cricketing skill.

Touche.

[Junaids]

It seems the players like Wahab, Rahat, Azhar, Shafiq and company have no desire no motivation to win. They don't even bother to improve their game. No passion for the game just going through the motions.

Okay, but what are we idealizing here?

Azhar Ali is the hardest worker amongst them, but he is a mediocre player who works hard. He probably doesn't achieve anything that Salman Butt or Babar Azam wouldn't, to be honest.

It's great to respect hard work, but it seems to have gone too far, with talent being demonized.

[fast1975]

Okay, but what are we idealizing here?

Azhar Ali is the hardest worker amongst them, but he is a mediocre player who works hard. He probably doesn't achieve anything that Salman Butt or Babar Azam wouldn't, to be honest.

It's great to respect hard work, but it seems to have gone too far, with talent being demonized.

at least he tries and protects one end. we need someone like him especially after younis and misbah retire in 6 months. he is a MUST for the team. absolutely a MUST to anchor our brittle batting.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Pakistan is missing Asif with the pink ball.

When the main issue is new ball bowling CS is more interested in bowler's ability to strike with old ball.

#Bring back M Asif

[Hawkeye]

On this pitch, Asif would've taken out Aus top order with 100/6 for sure.

He's literally unplayable and always bowls in the right channel. Such consistency with movement of the ball.

We've lost yet another Test due to inzi not picking him.

[godzilla]

On this pitch, Asif would've taken out Aus top order with 100/6 for sure.

He's literally unplayable and always bowls in the right channel. Such consistency with movement of the ball.

We've lost yet another Test due to inzi not picking him.

are you out of your mind? he would have had them 20 for 8, no question about it. definitely. or maybe 15 a.o. lets ignore his "stomach" problems, of course, since that wouldnt have happened in australia.

[Speedster777]

Pak bowlers failed to get wickets with new ball. That's the main reason for Australia's dominance in this match. Asif would have got the top order and put us in a commanding position.

[Haroon786]

Okay, but what are we idealizing here?

Azhar Ali is the hardest worker amongst them, but he is a mediocre player who works hard. He probably doesn't achieve anything that Salman Butt or Babar Azam wouldn't, to be honest.

It's great to respect hard work, but it seems to have gone too far, with talent being demonized.

That is taking things too far.

Sure Azhar may not be a talented or natural player, but he's far better than Salman Butt, someone who averaged almost 60% of the latter. If talent is about scoring runs and making an impact in matches, then Salman Butt is one of the worst batsmen Pakistan has ever produced.

Not to mention, his deplorable character, don't want to see his face on television again.

[Last Monetarist]

Asif would have definitely elevated the quality of our pace attack a notch or two as I think we have the weakest pace attack in Asia. Asif, for all his misdemeanours, would easily walk into this squad. Doubt he'd make a serious difference to the outcome as we'd still probably drop half a dozen catches in the slip cordon.

[Junaids]

are you out of your mind? he would have had them 20 for 8, no question about it. definitely. or maybe 15 a.o. lets ignore his "stomach" problems, of course, since that wouldnt have happened in australia.

Considering they were 85 all out two Tests ago, your attempt at a joke is probably accurate!

[Syed1]

are you out of your mind? he would have had them 20 for 8, no question about it. definitely. or maybe 15 a.o. lets ignore his "stomach" problems, of course, since that wouldnt have happened in australia.

Asif may or may not have them at 20/8 but one thing is for certain Rahat, Wahab, Imran and Sohail will never have them 20/8.

Take your pick

[Statsman]

Okay, but what are we idealizing here?

Azhar Ali is the hardest worker amongst them, but he is a mediocre player who works hard. He probably doesn't achieve anything that Salman Butt or Babar Azam wouldn't, to be honest.

It's great to respect hard work, but it seems to have gone too far, with talent being demonized.

Did you just club average Butt with the talented Babar?

[Gilly]

Asif may or may not have them at 20/8 but one thing is for certain Rahat, Wahab, Imran and Sohail will never have them 20/8.

Take your pick

the only pattern I see emerging

NZ bowlers will decimate the Aussies, Australia win 5 - 0
Wickets will tumble in the first hour after tea Australian batsmen don't lose a wickets and score at will
Asif is the only bowler who can dismiss the Aussies and win the test Please give him a chance

[godzilla]

Asif may or may not have them at 20/8 but one thing is for certain Rahat, Wahab, Imran and Sohail will never have them 20/8.

Take your pick

i think we should get my grandmother in to the side too. she might or might not have them at 20/8.

take your pick.

not much of an argument is it? the pick is usually based on whatever evidence we have. the only evidence we have is current competitions since 6 years in the sporting world is pre-history. he wasnt even fit enough to play the final after failing to play half the tournament because of his fitness. in a season thats just begun. not only that, he was heavily outperformed by ten to twenty peers in the competition. none of that means he cannot be world class, or that he cannot be amazing, quite genuinely. what it does mean is that at the moment he isnt even in the top dozen in a second string pakistan domestic circuit. maybe with another season his body will acclimatise better, and his fitness will improve and he will find some consistency, but ALL of the evidence suggests thats not the case now.

the only reason to support his inclusion right now is sentiment and desperation - both of which are very understandable, but neither of which are rational or logical reasons to do so.

[godzilla]

well i guess this ridiculously unintelligent knee jerk debate is put to rest by the magician's own words, he doesnt even think he is ready!!

"I am bowling lethal spells [in domestic] cricket but I know consistency is missing, which happens if you bowl in competitive cricket after a long time.

“I am doing all the hard work I can and I am confident I will get back to my former self soon."

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1277625/...mohammad-asif/

[Chrish]

When Pakistan looses, it's because Asif - the greatest bowler since Marshall is not allowed to play/ Pakistan is not used to big crowds/ Pakistan always plays away from their family

When they win it's because they are the greatest team since previous Australia

[TalentSpotterPk]

Asif may or may not have them at 20/8 but one thing is for certain Rahat, Wahab, Imran and Sohail will never have them 20/8.

Take your pick

I agree. Given that 3 out of the best 4 spells of Qea 2016 were bowled by Mohammad Asif there is no doubt that it was a disaster on part of PCB for not allowing Asif to play QEA 2015 and intensionally delaying his comeback. They had 5 years to replace him permanently but they failed.

Asif's comeback is imminent.

[Statsman]

Okay, but what are we idealizing here?

Azhar Ali is the hardest worker amongst them, but he is a mediocre player who works hard. He probably doesn't achieve anything that Salman Butt or Babar Azam wouldn't, to be honest.

It's great to respect hard work, but it seems to have gone too far, with talent being demonized.

Azhar Ali has a 200 in Australia. Salman Butt has never achieved that before.

[Slog]

Azhar Ali has a 200 in Australia. Salman Butt has never achieved that before.

This added to the funny aspect that Salman Butt himself wasn't any paragon of supremely blessed talent

he averaged mid 30s for a reason and he was clearly playing close to full potential

[TalentSpotterPk]

Selectors samjhien, team ko meri zarurat hai : Asif

[shaz619]

Selectors samjhien, team ko meri zarurat hai : Asif

God willing he returns, my faith is renewed after the magnificence of our bowling attack in Australia! I think he'll get a look at once he proves his fitness with no doubt.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Watching his latest interview.

Some gems from Asif.

Asif says He has not met Imran Khan yet but he has talked eith him on phone twice or thrice.

He told that once they were on an away tour and he had a chance to talk to IK. He asked IK what he should do ?
IK said whatever you are doing keep doing that because nobody is doing better than you.

[TalentSpotterPk]

God willing he returns, my faith is renewed after the magnificence of our bowling attack in Australia! I think he'll get a look at once he proves his fitness with no doubt.

Must watch his latest interview.

[shaz619]

Watching his latest interview.

Some gems from Asif.

Asif says He has not met Imran Khan yet but he has talked eith him on phone twice or thrice.

He told that once they were on an away tour and he had a chance to talk to IK. He asked IK what he should do ?
IK said whatever you are doing keep doing that because nobody is doing better than you.

Can you update his answers in this thread please

[Speedster777]

Must watch his latest interview.

Thoroughly enjoyed his interview , it's an eduction to listen to his views and insight on fast bowling

[Rayyman]

Must watch his latest interview.

Would you pick him over IK jr for WI? Both are terrible batsmen. Can't have two #11's in the squad.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Can you update his answers in this thread please

Yaar every 30 seconds he delivers a gem so its very difficult to pick and chose for me from 40 min interview.

May be @Abdullah719 can help.


Asif was asked that he seems over confident sometimes as his last two interviews suggest. At this he said that he was misquoted. Journalist asked him how he is bowling with new ball and he answered the way I used to bowl previously. The journalist made a news that Asif says that nobody in pakistan bowls better with the new ball still than him.

Asif said when he has ball in his hand he thinks he is the King and he says that every bowler should think so.


the anchor pointed out that He has 100 plus test wickets in very few tests. At this Asif said that he completed 100 test wickets in 20 tests and that to considering he only took 1 test wicket in first two tests so next 18 yielded 99 Test wickets.


He says that some ex cricketers said to him that it looked like there were stones on Karachi wicket the way he was cutting the ball back into right handers.

He said that while bowling in Khi he thought about some other bowler while running in and in that match he perfected in swing before that it just happened and he had no control.


Asif told that since Rawalpindi & Faisalabad Tests were drawn as wickets were very flat so before final test there was a " phadda " as to who amongst Asif, Rana, Rao & Sami will play and partner Shoaib as Asif had not taken many wickets so it was Bob Woolmer who took his side and said Asif will play.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Would you pick him over IK jr for WI? Both are terrible batsmen. Can't have two #11's in the squad.

He would be my first pick in the playing eleven. Let this Test end and than we will see who needs to be dropped from playing eleven and who shouldn't make the squad either.

Huge Amir fan and supporter. Just praying he takes a fourfer or fivefer in the second innings if Aus bat otherwise Amir should be dropped from the squad and asked to improve his build and work on his technical issues in order to revive old Amir.

No substitute for performance.


Sohail should only play Odi Cricket if selectors feel he can make it to the WC2019.


Don't like IK but there isn't much justification to drop him given his Test record.

Wahab's Test career needs to be sealed unless he bowls an MCG 2015 like spell and wins this one. This Aus tour bouncy wickets was the last we needed some good performances with pace and bounce domination but he failed.

[shaz619]

Yaar every 30 seconds he delivers a gem so its very difficult to pick and chose for me from 40 min interview.

May be @Abdullah719 can help.


Asif was asked that he seems over confident sometimes as his last two interviews suggest. At this he said that he was misquoted. Journalist asked him how he is bowling with new ball and he answered the way I used to bowl previously. The journalist made a news that Asif says that nobody in pakistan bowls better with the new ball still than him.

Asif said when he has ball in his hand he thinks he is the King and he says that every bowler should think so.


the anchor pointed out that He has 100 plus test wickets in very few tests. At this Asif said that he completed 100 test wickets in 20 tests and that to considering he only took 1 test wicket in first two tests so next 18 yielded 99 Test wickets.


He says that some ex cricketers said to him that it looked like there were stones on Karachi wicket the way he was cutting the ball back into right handers.

He said that while bowling in Khi he thought about some other bowler while running in and in that match he perfected in swing before that it just happened and he had no control.


Asif told that since Rawalpindi & Faisalabad Tests were drawn as wickets were very flat so before final test there was a " phadda " as to who amongst Asif, Rana, Rao & Sami will play and partner Shoaib as Asif had not taken many wickets so it was Bob Woolmer who took his side and said Asif will play.

Thanks mate that's alright!

Some gems there and I've always said this Bob Woolmer is the greatest coach of all time and the smartest cricketing brain in the history of our sport; I've read big chunks of his coaching manual and honestly his methods, techniques and advice are the blue print for any cricketer or enthusiasts who wants to understand the art and science. So it's of no surprise to me that it was Bob Woolmer who identified Asif's talent and went out on a limb with him in that particular instance.

Him being misquoted by the journalist is another biggy! the man was being vilified on these forums based on those comments they thought he said about our attack

[Ellipsism]

He would be my first pick in the playing eleven. Let this Test end and than we will see who needs to be dropped from playing eleven and who shouldn't make the squad either.

Huge Amir fan and supporter. Just praying he takes a fourfer or fivefer in the second innings if Aus bat otherwise Amir should be dropped from the squad and asked to improve his build and work on his technical issues in order to revive old Amir.

No substitute for performance.


Sohail should only play Odi Cricket if selectors feel he can make it to the WC2019.


Don't like IK but there isn't much justification to drop him given his Test record.

Wahab's Test career needs to be sealed unless he bowls an MCG 2015 like spell and wins this one. This Aus tour bouncy wickets was the last we needed some good performances with pace and bounce domination but he failed.

Wahab has been the pick of the Pakistani bowlers. I'm sure his place is secured for the WI series.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Now I know why pace doesn't matter if a bowler is tall, has upright action, bowls closer to the stumps and bowls with upright seam.

Asif explained it beautifully.

Batsman loses vision, loses time to pick the length.

This is why 6'4 Sadaf has ruled consistently in two formats despite being 128 to 137 kph.

[Junaids]

I'm really conflicted about Asif being recalled.

Every selection now needs to build up to the tour of South Africa in 23 months and the tour of England in 29 months. We have to accept that one cricketing cycle ends after this Sydney Test. Albeit one in which Asif and Butt have been missed massively and grievously.

Any player who is going to be 35 or older then really should not be selected now.

That means that Imam should play ahead of Salman Butt.

And it should rule Asif out in any normal circumstances. Except that there appears to be no right-arm alternative.

[Idrees1990]

I'm really conflicted about Asif being recalled.

Every selection now needs to build up to the tour of South Africa in 23 months and the tour of England in 29 months. We have to accept that one cricketing cycle ends after this Sydney Test. Albeit one in which Asif and Butt have been missed massively and grievously.

Any player who is going to be 35 or older then really should not be selected now.

That means that Imam should play ahead of Salman Butt.

And it should rule Asif out in any normal circumstances. Except that there appears to be no right-arm alternative.

Everyone should be selected based on merit not age. There are age discrimination laws for a reason.

[Junaids]

Everyone should be selected based on merit not age. There are age discrimination laws for a reason.

Sport doesn't work like that. Which is how Spain, after winning three consecutive major tournaments in 2008, 2010 and 2012, bombed at the 2014 World Cup, losing 5-1 to Holland and failing to get out of the group.

Every top quality football coach for club or country has to constantly replace his oldest players with young ones, and ensure that the team is never too old but also never in a transition period.

Cricket is the same: four Tests ago Australia hit rock bottom, five straight Test defeats, and dumped every single player over 30.

Since then they have won three in a row.

Every Test side has clear scheduling cycles. The one in which Asif and Butt were needed ends with this match.

Now a new 2.5 year cycle begins, which ends in a Spring tour of England in the same swinging conditions recently encountered in NZ.

[Idrees1990]

It worked for them but that doesn't mean it's a universal fact. Plus, there were probably many other reasons why they improved. Maybe better coaches/trainers, etc....

Senior players can provide much needed experience and can teach youngsters. It's unfair for them to not even have a chance to prove themselves.

Selection based onMerit will give you quality not age.

[Black Zero]

I'm really conflicted about Asif being recalled.

Every selection now needs to build up to the tour of South Africa in 23 months and the tour of England in 29 months. We have to accept that one cricketing cycle ends after this Sydney Test. Albeit one in which Asif and Butt have been missed massively and grievously.

Any player who is going to be 35 or older then really should not be selected now.

That means that Imam should play ahead of Salman Butt.

And it should rule Asif out in any normal circumstances. Except that there appears to be no right-arm alternative.

Why 35, why not 34 or 36?

[Junaids]

Why 35, why not 34 or 36?

Excellent question.

With elderly batsmen, they become like Gordon Greenidge (who scored 223 in his penultimate Test), Younis Khan or Misbah. They lose their consistency so while they still sometime go big on favourable surfaces (Sydney, The Oval, Cape Town) they fail in almost every other innings outside home turf.

So I actually agree with what Mickey Arthur wrote about in his book.

That is, a team can carry a couple of players in the 30-32 age range. Any older players - 33 or older - must contribute in at least 50% of innings, and the moment they no longer can - which for Younis and Misbah was in South Africa five years ago, with 5 failures in 6 innings for both - has to mean immediate and permanent removal from the squad.

Generally pace bowlers need to go even sooner - by around 32. And Asif is going to be almost 37 by the time of the England tour.

I genuinely believe that Asif should have played the 9 Tests outside Asia since July, and I think his control would have made the whole attack stronger.

But it's too late now. The selectors should be sacked and banned for life from PCB employment for destroying the three tours with their catastrophic decision to exclude Asif and Butt. I am deadly serious: Inzamam and Tauseef should be banned for life for gross incompetence by excluding Asif and Butt.

But the cycle is over, and Asif has no chance of going to England in two and a half years, so he can't be picked.

[Black Zero]

Excellent question.

With elderly batsmen, they become like Gordon Greenidge (who scored 223 in his penultimate Test), Younis Khan or Misbah. They lose their consistency so while they still sometime go big on favourable surfaces (Sydney, The Oval, Cape Town) they fail in almost every other innings outside home turf.

So I actually agree with what Mickey Arthur wrote about in his book.

That is, a team can carry a couple of players in the 30-32 age range. Any older players - 33 or older - must contribute in at least 50% of innings, and the moment they no longer can - which for Younis and Misbah was in South Africa five years ago, with 5 failures in 6 innings for both - has to mean immediate and permanent removal from the squad.

Generally pace bowlers need to go even sooner - by around 32. And Asif is going to be almost 37 by the time of the England tour.

I genuinely believe that Asif should have played the 9 Tests outside Asia since July, and I think his control would have made the whole attack stronger.

But it's too late now. The selectors should be sacked and banned for life from PCB employment for destroying the three tours with their catastrophic decision to exclude Asif and Butt. I am deadly serious: Inzamam and Tauseef should be banned for life for gross incompetence by excluding Asif and Butt.

But the cycle is over, and Asif has no chance of going to England in two and a half years, so he can't be picked.

So 33 for batsman and 32 for bowlers... and you were lenient when you set the limit at 35?

What if, instead, we set 50% performance criteria for everyone, except new comers. In that case, it would fair to everyone as its merit based, free of discrimination . This would help to discard bad performers at early stage, while let us keep playing the late bloomers.
I think IK avenged best in his last year's and I do not believe, YK was ever consistent even when he was not this old. (I would have preferred, if he had been dropped early in his career, as he caused us so many defeats.)

[TalentSpotterPk]

Come On Asif.


Beat youngsta beauties in Fitness Tests which will be held 2 months later.

Work hardest with Yasir Malik trainer at NCA.

Peak fitness and than Crash the door of selection for Test tour of West Indies.

[Ellipsism]

Come On Asif.


Beat youngsta beauties in Fitness Tests which will be held 2 months later.

Work hardest with Yasir Malik trainer at NCA.

Peak fitness and than Crash the door of selection for Test tour of West Indies.

It will benefit Pakistan if they invest in younger players.

The Pakistani test team already contains many players on the wrong side of thirty, there is no need to introduce another one.

[TalentSpotterPk]

It will benefit Pakistan if they invest in younger players.

The Pakistani test team already contains many players on the wrong side of thirty, there is no need to introduce another one.

We need leader of Attack. We don't need a directionless leaderless bowling unit.


Ryan Haris was also on the wrong side of 30's. He won Australia 10-15 Tests by his bowling that wsd important.

This is not Limited overs Cricket. In Test Cricket every Test is an event in itself.


If he matches NCA's fitness standards he should be first pick for West Indies Test Tour. Amir needs to be dropped for a while. Imran should be persisted for overall record uptil now. Rahat, Sohail & Wahab's Test career's should be sealed for ever.


2-3 youngster fast bowlers would be enough to partner Asif, Imran in the squad.


I think I do not need to repeat West Indies preferring Walsh and New Zealand preferring Hadlee until the age of 39-40.


If you are performing, your skill is intact, fitness is fine you should be representing national team.


Longest unchanged spell of QEA 2016-2017 was bowled by Asif. It was a 17 overs Spell

[Square Drive]

Excellent question.

With elderly batsmen, they become like Gordon Greenidge (who scored 223 in his penultimate Test), Younis Khan or Misbah. They lose their consistency so while they still sometime go big on favourable surfaces (Sydney, The Oval, Cape Town) they fail in almost every other innings outside home turf.

So I actually agree with what Mickey Arthur wrote about in his book.

That is, a team can carry a couple of players in the 30-32 age range. Any older players - 33 or older - must contribute in at least 50% of innings, and the moment they no longer can - which for Younis and Misbah was in South Africa five years ago, with 5 failures in 6 innings for both - has to mean immediate and permanent removal from the squad.

Generally pace bowlers need to go even sooner - by around 32. And Asif is going to be almost 37 by the time of the England tour.

I genuinely believe that Asif should have played the 9 Tests outside Asia since July, and I think his control would have made the whole attack stronger.

But it's too late now. The selectors should be sacked and banned for life from PCB employment for destroying the three tours with their catastrophic decision to exclude Asif and Butt. I am deadly serious: Inzamam and Tauseef should be banned for life for gross incompetence by excluding Asif and Butt.

But the cycle is over, and Asif has no chance of going to England in two and a half years, so he can't be picked.

If that's what Misbah believes, why is he still backing Misbah's inclusion in the side along with YK's to an extent, coupled with the fact that he just okayed Irfan's selection and even just ordered for Hafeez's inclusion (he surely has the biggest voice in the management)?

[Junaids]

If that's what Misbah believes, why is he still backing Misbah's inclusion in the side along with YK's to an extent, coupled with the fact that he just okayed Irfan's selection and even just ordered for Hafeez's inclusion (he surely has the biggest voice in the management)?

I don't for a second believe that Mickey wants either Younis or Misbah in the team.

I think he says nice things about Misbah through gritted teeth while counting the days until he is rid of this ultra-defensive has-been. He knows that Misbah outranks him, and he will be loyal until he goes.

Younis is a bit different. Judging by the Imran no pace/ Sohail no stamina interview, Mickey has really been conflicted about Younis. On the one hand, he sets a superb example with his training regime and fitness. Plus he has scored 2 huge centuries in 17 Test innings outside Asia this last six months.

But Younis has also failed in 14 of those 17 Test innings outside Asia these last six months.

And ultimately, Mickey knows that no team can do well with a Number 4 who fails in 14 out of 17 innings, even if he makes huge scores in the other 3 innings.

So my interpretation is that Mickey Arthur will continue to praise Misbah and Younis. While privately hoping that Misbah is already retired and that Younis will retire as soon as he gets the remaining 36 runs to reach 10,000.

[Square Drive]

I don't for a second believe that Mickey wants either Younis or Misbah in the team.

I think he says nice things about Misbah through gritted teeth while counting the days until he is rid of this ultra-defensive has-been. He knows that Misbah outranks him, and he will be loyal until he goes.

Younis is a bit different. Judging by the Imran no pace/ Sohail no stamina interview, Mickey has really been conflicted about Younis. On the one hand, he sets a superb example with his training regime and fitness. Plus he has scored 2 huge centuries in 17 Test innings outside Asia this last six months.

But Younis has also failed in 14 of those 17 Test innings outside Asia these last six months.

And ultimately, Mickey knows that no team can do well with a Number 4 who fails in 14 out of 17 innings, even if he makes huge scores in the other 3 innings.

So my interpretation is that Mickey Arthur will continue to praise Misbah and Younis. While privately hoping that Misbah is already retired and that Younis will retire as soon as he gets the remaining 36 runs to reach 10,000.

Good post. Forgot to reply about my concerns regarding his push for Hafeez and his being fine with Irfan, though.

Firstly, thanks for understanding my typing error; I did indeed mean Mickey and not Misbah!

Regarding Misbah, that's an interesting observation and I also hope that that's true.

As for YK, I doubt it man; I'm sure YK will play on for longer and I think Mickey will not be too concerned.

As for Sohail, Imran, Rahat - you think their careers are over under Arthur?

Firmly believe that Sohail would be a real asset in ODIs.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Why have Sialkot benched him after 1 match ?

Is he injured ?

[Ellipsism]

Why have Sialkot benched him after 1 match ?

Is he injured ?

Because he's being outdone by younger trundlers.

[Idrees1990]

Why have Sialkot benched him after 1 match ?

Is he injured ?

Which tournament is this? link please

[Abdullah719]

Which tournament is this? link please

Grade II tournaments.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?257243

http://www.pcb.com.pk/quaideazam-tro...tch/29722.html

[TalentSpotterPk]

Because he's being outdone by younger trundlers.

At 34 years age Diesel Engine needs time to Heat Up.