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  1. #81
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    Similarly, if Australia is removed from Pollock's stats, he averages 21 in 95 tests with 381 wickets!

    If you were not Australia and you were facing Donald and Pollock, you were doomed. Ask Saeed Anwar.

  2. #82
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    Inshort:

    Tests:
    Ambrose > McGrath > Donald > Wasim > Pollock > Walsh > Waqar

    ODIs
    Wasim > McGrath > Pollock > Donald > Ambrose > Waqar > Walsh

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Inshort:

    Tests:
    Ambrose > McGrath > Donald > Wasim > Pollock > Walsh > Waqar

    ODIs
    Wasim > McGrath > Pollock > Donald > Ambrose > Waqar > Walsh
    I'd put Wasim ahead of Donald and Waqar ahead of Walsh, and Waqar (416 ODI wickets at <24 avg) ahead of Donald and Ambrose in ODIs.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Leave it bhai.

    This thread is full of manufactured reasons.

    Even if we assume the reasons, no one can explain why test loving Western media under-rates them. And what did Lara do in ODIs in WC to warrant supreme hype in general (if we go by that reasoning)?

    This is like deciding on the answer and seeking the path.

    Shocking really. But maybe not.
    I think one of the major reasons we underrated as a nation is that we are not part of the big boys old club (Windies, Eng, Aus).
    To be fair Pakistanis are underrated too, i remember how the likes of Wasim and Waqar were vilified for reversing the ball regularly when no one else could.
    It is post retirement that these two guys are appreciated for their skills.
    Kallis towards the end of his career got his due as well.

    I think the next generation of cricketers (provided we remain a good side) will put into perspective how good those guys are/were. We had no point of reference when the likes of Kallis, Pollock and Donald were delivering performance after performance. So no one really knew how good they are/were as they couldn't be compared to their fellow countrymen.
    Rabada for example is getting great reviews because of the legacy Donald, Pollock and Steyn have left behind. He has point of reference, so don't be surprised to see him getting slightly overrated.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    His legacy shouldn't be impacted by a brain freeze while batting.

    1) He was a full out tailender (avg of 4)
    2) He's the reason Australia ended on 213 in the first place.
    3) What the hell were specialist batsmen doing above him? They bottled it.

    If this is the reason he's being underrated, it's highly unfair considering the bowler he was.
    His brain-freeze had nothing to do with his batting ability or him being a proper tail-ender. That's the whole point.

    It was an unbelievably dumb mistake that you wouldn't expect from a schoolboy, doesn't matter if he is a batsman or bowler.

    It has become the symbol of the classic South African choke in World Cups, and it costed them a World Cup. In addition, that moment also kickstarted Australia's sheer dominance that lasted for the next 8 years.

    Yes they would still have dominated over the next decade even if SA (or Pakistan) would have won that World Cup, but that moment is still associated with Australia's dominance just like Miandad's six is associated with Pakistan's dominance over India throughout the late 80's and 90's.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Klusener ran a non-existant run in the SF which was simply suicidal however you look at it.

    Even if Donald had ran - Mark Waugh could have easily ran either Klusener or Donald out at either end. The ball was just too close to the fielder and there were two balls remaining anyway.

    Klusener should bear larger responsibility for that defeat imo.
    It wasn't a non-existent run. Klusener made it to his end comfortably and Donald would have as well if he wasn't ball watching like an idiot.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Similarly, if Australia is removed from Pollock's stats, he averages 21 in 95 tests with 381 wickets!

    If you were not Australia and you were facing Donald and Pollock, you were doomed. Ask Saeed Anwar.
    Both were quality bowlers, but I won't agree with the Saeed Anwar example.

    Saeed Anwar for all his incredible talent, was an infuriating batsman to watch at times. He was the king of soft and casual dismissals.

    Majority of his dismissals were self-inflicted; he was too good to get undone by bowlers most of the time, and that is why he underachieved so much.

    Had ATG potential and along with Inzamam, the most talented batsman produced by Pakistan.

  8. #88
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    I think its only on PP that Donald is underrated. Pollock on the other hand, is the one truly underrated everywhere.

    In the mid 90s, Donald was by far the most exciting bowler. That run up, that jump during the delivery stride, that face cream. One of the best sights of the 90s along with Warne spinning the web around batsman and Sachin's drives.

    I didnt watch much cricket in the early 90s, so didnt really get to see a Waqar at his peak.

    It wasn't until Shoaib Akhtar came into his own in 99 that there was anyone to match the excitement.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Leave it bhai.

    This thread is full of manufactured reasons.

    Even if we assume the reasons, no one can explain why test loving Western media under-rates them. And what did Lara do in ODIs in WC to warrant supreme hype in general (if we go by that reasoning)?

    This is like deciding on the answer and seeking the path.

    Shocking really. But maybe not.
    Lara didn't have the team to win a World Cup, but when you have a bunch of world class players who have the team to win World Cups but always, always fall short, you have to question the mentality of the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Is Broad's legacy decided by the 6 sixes off Yuvi?

    Is Stokes's legacy decided by the epic choke job in WT20 finals?
    Stokes is not all-time great yet, and World T20 matters less than the World Cup. The legacies of a lot of modern day English players will be defined by the 2019 World Cup. This is their best ever chance to win the World Cup. They have the team and its at home, any English player who chokes big time and costs his team the World Cup will do significant damage to his legacy.

    You can still be an ATG by failing in World Cups. Most of the legends of SA are ATGs, but they will always be below those ATGs who delivered both in Tests and World Cups. This should not be a difficult concept to understand but apparently it is.

    Broad is no ATG either, but both have the opportunity to do something special in the next World Cup. There is a reason why most people don't consider English players ATGs and it is the same reason as the one for SA players. They have failed to deliver in World Cups like other ATGs from other teams.
    Is Warne's legacy decided by being utterly destroyed by Aravinda and co in 1996 WC finals?
    Warne redeemed himself with his magical performance in the 1999 World Cup, top wicket-taker + MoM performances in both the semifinal and final. Please remind me what the SA legends did or have done to redeem themselves in World Cups?
    Is Tendulkar's legacy decided by the hook shot gone wrong in 2003 WC?
    Tendulkar was a run machine in World Cups and done it all for India, but there is a reason why for most people, he ranks below Viv in ODIs.

    Do you think Tendulkar would be unanimously considered the GOAT ODI batsman had he scored big in either of the two World Cup finals? Most probably yes, and his two failures in 2003 and 2011 is a major reason why he is not an undisputed GOAT in ODIs even though he has all the batting records.

    Is Kohli's legacy decided by the horrible hook shot to Johnson in 2015 WC?
    If Kohli retires today, his poor World Cup record will count against him. He will be remembered for not standing up for India in World Cups in spite of all the talent and ability. However, he has two more World Cups to make it right and if he does it, he will be remembered alongside the other ATGs (provided he becomes an ATG in Tests as well).

    However, only a fool would count him out. He has proved himself in other tournaments and his World Cup record so far can be put down due to inexperience in 2011 and poor form in 2015. However, no excuses will count in 2019. He's at his peak now.

    Is Misbah's legacy decided by losing to India in WC 2011?
    Yes, Misbah has been Pakistan's nearly man. He brought them close to victory against India in two ICC tournaments but failed to cross the line. His legacy would have been more celebrated than it is now had he won the semifinal for Pakistan.
    And the list goes on.....and on....and on....and on....and on.....forever.
    I hope the other examples in this list are more substantial and convincing.
    Last edited by Mamoon; 12th November 2016 at 08:16.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Yeah, just like Kallis scored soft runs, somebody who has 45 test centuries scored soft runs. Give me a break!

    SA cricketers are criminally underrated despite their team always staying in the top 3 in both formats since their return in 1992.
    No one cares about ODI rankings when you show a lack of spine in World Cups time and time and time again.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Lara didn't have the team to win a World Cup, but when you have a bunch of world class players who have the team to win World Cups but always, always fall short, you have to question the mentality of the players.

    Stokes is not all-time great yet, and World T20 matters less than the World Cup. The legacies of a lot of modern day English players will be defined by the 2019 World Cup. This is their best ever chance to win the World Cup. They have the team and its at home, any English player who chokes big time and costs his team the World Cup will do significant damage to his legacy.

    You can still be an ATG by failing in World Cups. Most of the legends of SA are ATGs, but they will always be below those ATGs who delivered both in Tests and World Cups. This should not be a difficult concept to understand but apparently it is.


    Warne redeemed himself with his magical performance in the 1999 World Cup, top wicket-taker + MoM performances in both the semifinal and final. Please remind me what the SA legends did or have done to redeem themselves in World Cups?


    Tendulkar was a run machine in World Cups and done it all for India, but there is a reason why for most people, he ranks below Viv in ODIs.

    Do you think Tendulkar would be unanimously considered the GOAT ODI batsman had he scored big in either of the two World Cup finals? Most probably yes, and his two failures in 2003 and 2011 is a major reason why he is not an undisputed GOAT in ODIs even though he has all the batting records.



    If Kohli retires today, his poor World Cup record will count against him. He will be remembered for not standing up for India in World Cups in spite of all the talent and ability. However, he has two more World Cups to make it right and if he does it, he will be remembered alongside the other ATGs (provided he becomes an ATG in Tests as well).

    However, only a fool would count him out. He has proved himself in other tournaments and his World Cup record so far can be put down due to inexperience in 2011 and poor form in 2015. However, no excuses will count in 2019. He's at his peak now.



    Yes, Misbah has been Pakistan's nearly man. He brought them close to victory against India in two ICC tournaments but failed to cross the line. His legacy would have been more celebrated than it is now had he won the semifinal for Pakistan.


    I hope the other examples in this list are more substantial and convincing.
    Let me take this point bro..

    Lara didn't have the team to win a World Cup, but when you have a bunch of world class players who have the team to win World Cups but always, always fall short, you have to question the mentality of the players.
    Lara had a good team in 90s and WI didn't win a WC.

    Still no one under-rates Lara. In fact, he is the only ATG batsman who doesn't have like 57-58 average after a huge sample set like SRT, Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Sanga, etc....and STILL he is rated above them all except SRT...sometimes (or a lot of times) even ahead of SRT.

    How did that happen?

    Why didn't people question Lara's mentality?
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 12th November 2016 at 08:43.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    What did I just read!

    1999 WC semi-final, Pollock's figures read 10-36-5 and Donald's 10-32-4. That's 9 out of 10 wickets. They dismissed Australia for just 213 runs and had done their part. What does choking as batsmen has to do with their bowling? Are we rating them as all-rounder? No. Are we rating them as bowlers? Yes.

    Same match McGrath went for 51 runs and took just 1 wicket of Mark Boucher.

    SA as a team has not done well in big tournaments but you can't underrate their players just because they did not win those trophies.
    Yes cricket can be a cruel game, but this is how it is. It is about fine margins.

    It is not as if SA players don't have individual performances in World Cups, they do, but whenever they perform, someone in the opposition not only performs but runs away with the game.

    Performing is one thing but performing + winning the match for your team is a different matter altogether. SA players have lacked that quality. Something, somewhere always happens due to which they lose.

    They have mastered the art of performing but losing in World Cups, and that is why they are chokers. Playing poorly but losing is not a choke, but playing well but losing is a choke.

    Pollock and Donald performed in the 1999 semifinal but they didn't win their team the match, in fact Donald lost them in the end.

    In response, Warned turned the match around in 4 overs and then returned to dismiss Kallis which triggered a collapse, and Australia won.

    In the 2015 semifinal, de Villiers played an outstanding knock but he failed to win the game; McCullum played an outstanding knock but NZ won, and de Villiers' missed run out was the pivotal moment in the game.

    That's the whole point. SA players, individually and collectively, lack the spine to win big World Cup matches due to which the remain in the shadow of the other ATGs who have done it both in Tests and World Cups.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No one cares about ODI rankings when you show a lack of spine in World Cups time and time and time again.
    You cant look at the 90s with a 00s perspective.

    Yes, the WC was the biggest prize in the 90s, but most cricketers of the 90s, would have grown up in the 70s and the 80s and the Test cricket was a lot more important than it is today. Some cricketers of this day and age would consider even a T20 championship more important than test. Would not have happened in the 90s.

    Also, the SA team choked as a whole in 96,99,03. Yes Donald should have run that, but SA should not have been 9 down chasing 213 in the first place.

    Also, you cant take a bowlers' batting capability and rate him for failures. Wasim Akram criminally underachieved as a batsman, but that doesn't impact Waz the bowler.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Let me take this point bro..

    Lara had a good team in 90s and WI didn't win a WC.

    Still no one under-rates Lara. In fact, he is the only ATG batsman who doesn't have like 57-58 average after a huge sample set like SRT, Ponting, Kallis, Dravid, Sanga, etc....and STILL he is rated above them all except SRT...sometimes (or a lot of times) even ahead of SRT.

    How did that happen?

    Why didn't people question Lara's mentality?
    Lara was not in his prime in 1992, he was in the embryonic stage of his career.

    1996 was a good chance for WI, and they should have won but they choked in the SF including Lara.

    In subsequent World Cups he did not have the team to win.

    Why do you think Lara is not talked about in ODIs as much as Tendulkar or Ponting? Had he not choked in the SF and won WI the World Cup, he would be rated higher as an ODI player.

    Besides, another point is that he had great entertainment factor, so he lives long in the memory.

    Lara without his entertainment value would be less celebrated than he is now.

    Tendulkar was a better batsman than him in both formats but some people would still insist that Lara was better, just because he was entertaining.

    However, you should ask those people why they think that way, I can't answer for them. Aesthetics matter to be but it doesn't define a career. I personally found Tendulkar boring to watch (because he was too orthodox and robotic) and I don't enjoy watching Kohli either (plays way too many percentage shots) but that doesn't mean I don't rate them as players.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 12th November 2016 at 08:44.

  15. #95
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    Lara not being talked about in same terms as Ponting or Tendulkar in ODIs has nothing to do with choking in a WC. He flat out wasn't as good as SRT and Punter, far too inconsistent in the format.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    You cant look at the 90s with a 00s perspective.

    Yes, the WC was the biggest prize in the 90s, but most cricketers of the 90s, would have grown up in the 70s and the 80s and the Test cricket was a lot more important than it is today. Some cricketers of this day and age would consider even a T20 championship more important than test. Would not have happened in the 90s.

    Also, the SA team choked as a whole in 96,99,03. Yes Donald should have run that, but SA should not have been 9 down chasing 213 in the first place.

    Also, you cant take a bowlers' batting capability and rate him for failures. Wasim Akram criminally underachieved as a batsman, but that doesn't impact Waz the bowler.
    What does Donald's run out have to do with his batting capability? absolutely nothing. It is not as if he got dismissed; he made a schoolboy error and he hasn't made such an error at any other point in his career.

    He froze under pressure and that's all. No excuses/justifications exist for it. If he would have been dismissed for his batting,no one would call him a choker.

    Your point is not logical. Yes Tests are/were more important, but that does not mean that players deliberately underperformed in World Cups.

    SA players don't choke in World Cups because they don't consider it as important as Tests; they choke because they lack the mentality to handle the pressure of World Cups.

    They are good at handling pressure in Tests but not in ODIs, because the demands are different.

    Yes they choke as a team, which is why they are chokers. However, certain moments stand out more than others, just like Donald's run out does, which plays a big role in their legacies.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by OS_89 View Post
    Lara not being talked about in same terms as Ponting or Tendulkar in ODIs has nothing to do with choking in a WC. He flat out wasn't as good as SRT and Punter, far too inconsistent in the format.
    Yes, and he became quite average post-1999. However, had he won the 1996 WC for WI, he would be rated and remembered much higher in ODIs than he does now, that is not disputable. Winning World Cups does a lot to a player's legacy.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Lara was not in his prime in 1992, he was in the embryonic stage of his career.

    1996 was a good chance for WI, and they should have won but they choked in the SF including Lara.

    In subsequent World Cups he did not have the team to win.

    Why do you think Lara is not talked about in ODIs as much as Tendulkar or Ponting? Had he not choked in the SF and won WI the World Cup, he would be rated higher as an ODI player.

    Besides, another point is that he had great entertainment factor, so he lives long in the memory.

    Lara without his entertainment value would be less celebrated than he is now.

    Tendulkar was a better batsman than him in both formats but some people would still insist that Lara was better, just because he was entertaining.

    However, you should ask those people why they think that way, I can't answer for them. Aesthetics matter to be but it doesn't define a career. I personally found Tendulkar boring to watch (because he was too orthodox and robotic) and I don't enjoy watching Kohli either (plays way too many percentage shots) but that doesn't mean I don't rate them as players.
    But Lara gets talked about in tests inspite of not winning the WC.

    And Donald was a supremely entertaining strike bowler too.

    Still doesn't get talked about much. Passing mention at best.


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  19. #99
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    let me get this straight, what about us as Test loving nations, should we rate bottlers who never won a Test series in Australia or South Africa?
    Or wouldn't that suit the narrative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    As far Donald is concerned, yes he has the distinction and the honor of pulling off the biggest individual choke in cricket history. I complete disagree with @msb314, that it wasn't Donald's fault.

    It has nothing to do with being a number 11. It is common sense and you would expect even a 15 year old who has only played at an amateur level to not freeze the way Donald did.

    A player playing at that level should know that ball watching is a crime and when the ball is in-front of the wicket, it is the striker's call.

    Doing it at any level is a choke, let alone a World Cup semifinal when 1 run was required in 3 deliveries. It was an unbelievably dumb mistake and there is no defense for it, except that Donald was a massive, massive bottler.
    I agree with the rest of your post about SA underachieving in the WC, but it's so cruel to blame that solely on Donald. Klusener made a horrible horrible decision to run on that ball. He lost his nerves right at the very end after a fantastic knock. Yes Donald probably should have ran anyway and not looked behind him, but usually when the ball goes RIGHT past you, you try to return to the crease first.
    Last edited by zulfiqar; 12th November 2016 at 09:11.


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  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It wasn't a non-existent run. Klusener made it to his end comfortably and Donald would have as well if he wasn't ball watching like an idiot.
    Are you really judging someone who was a bowler based on batting?

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Inshort:

    Tests:
    Ambrose > McGrath > Donald > Wasim > Pollock > Walsh > Waqar

    ODIs
    Wasim > McGrath > Pollock > Donald > Ambrose > Waqar > Walsh
    Waqar was the no 1 bowler for good about 4 years. Walsh wasn't and neither was Pollock. Virtually no one rates Walsh or Pollock ahead of Waqar in tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    I think one of the major reasons we underrated as a nation is that we are not part of the big boys old club (Windies, Eng, Aus).
    To be fair Pakistanis are underrated too, i remember how the likes of Wasim and Waqar were vilified for reversing the ball regularly when no one else could.
    It is post retirement that these two guys are appreciated for their skills.
    Kallis towards the end of his career got his due as well.

    I think the next generation of cricketers (provided we remain a good side) will put into perspective how good those guys are/were. We had no point of reference when the likes of Kallis, Pollock and Donald were delivering performance after performance. So no one really knew how good they are/were as they couldn't be compared to their fellow countrymen.
    Rabada for example is getting great reviews because of the legacy Donald, Pollock and Steyn have left behind. He has point of reference, so don't be surprised to see him getting slightly overrated.
    Pakistan bowlers were vilified but not under-rated.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Lara was not in his prime in 1992, he was in the embryonic stage of his career.

    1996 was a good chance for WI, and they should have won but they choked in the SF including Lara.

    In subsequent World Cups he did not have the team to win.

    Why do you think Lara is not talked about in ODIs as much as Tendulkar or Ponting? Had he not choked in the SF and won WI the World Cup, he would be rated higher as an ODI player.

    Besides, another point is that he had great entertainment factor, so he lives long in the memory.

    Lara without his entertainment value would be less celebrated than he is now.

    Tendulkar was a better batsman than him in both formats but some people would still insist that Lara was better, just because he was entertaining.

    However, you should ask those people why they think that way, I can't answer for them. Aesthetics matter to be but it doesn't define a career. I personally found Tendulkar boring to watch (because he was too orthodox and robotic) and I don't enjoy watching Kohli either (plays way too many percentage shots) but that doesn't mean I don't rate them as players.
    Tendulkar was not necessarily a better player in both formats.

    Lara played arguably the greatest test innings we have seen in the last 30 years (153 vs Aus) under immense pressure. Lara was a master at counter attacking and scoring big big runs. I will take him over Tendulkar in tests

    People do not rank Lara higher than Tendulkar because of entertainment value, its because he was more clutch. Tendulkar was clearly better in odi's, no contest. But this isn't the case with tests.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    let me get this straight, what about us as Test loving nations, should we rate bottlers who never won a Test series in Australia or South Africa?
    Or wouldn't that suit the narrative?
    I agree with you. This point of view as rating SA players as bottlers is wrong just because they haven't won a world cup.

  26. #106
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    Donald does get mentioned a lot - certainly my generation who watched some of his fearsome bowling spells in the 90s. Certainly his duel against Atherton was one of the best I have witnessed as a fan and will always live in the memory.

    As for Pollock again a Top bowler but it's fair to see he's gets less mentioned maybe because he was a different type of bowler who's primary task was extracting movement off the wicket and keeping it tight. He's a SA bowling legend no doubt.

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    I've always been a huge fan of both of them, and Allan Donald has always been my favorite fast bowler of all time.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Pakistan bowlers were vilified but not under-rated.
    To be fair it was mainly the English media and a few players like Botham who vilified them. Most wanted to learn the art and eventually some did.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk031992 View Post
    Tendulkar was not necessarily a better player in both formats.

    Lara played arguably the greatest test innings we have seen in the last 30 years (153 vs Aus) under immense pressure. Lara was a master at counter attacking and scoring big big runs. I will take him over Tendulkar in tests

    People do not rank Lara higher than Tendulkar because of entertainment value, its because he was more clutch. Tendulkar was clearly better in odi's, no contest. But this isn't the case with tests.
    Oh, so clutch test batsman Lara had how may tons in win against non-minnows? You need gun bowlers to win as well. He had Ambrose and Walsh. Clutch is some one who scores and wins in difficult situations consistently.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 90MPH View Post
    To be fair it was mainly the English media and a few players like Botham who vilified them. Most wanted to learn the art and eventually some did.
    Yeah but I was answering his point about vilification to explain that they weren't under-rated by any stretch of imagination.


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  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Oh, so clutch test batsman Lara had how may tons in win against non-minnows? You need gun bowlers to win as well. He had Ambrose and Walsh. Clutch is some one who scores and wins in difficult situations consistently.
    I mean clutch as in he could fight and score when his team was in trouble. I cannot expect Lara to win too many matches vs non minnows with the kind of batsmen he had for the majority of his career, and even though he had two gun bowlers until 2000, let's be honest; Ambrose and Walsh were not as lethal in the later stages of their career despite maintaining excellent averages and still giving great performances. Lara basically spend the last 7 years of his career fighting it out largely by himself

    This is what i mean by clutch:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeNuKAuy3BQ

    WI were in huge trouble at 12-3 and Lara scores 176. It takes immense mental strength to do that.

    this is another example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS5ETQrUmyk

    WI in trouble at 2 down for just 5 runs, and Brian scores a double century vs the best team in the world.

    And of course that glorious 153.

    With all due respect to Tendulkar, i simply don't think he was as clutch as Lara in tests though still an ATG. I think regardless of the final result of the match, Lara always demonstrated great mental strength and could fight fire with fire. If he had a better team around him for the majority of his career, he would have won so many games.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk031992 View Post
    I mean clutch as in he could fight and score when his team was in trouble. I cannot expect Lara to win too many matches vs non minnows with the kind of batsmen he had for the majority of his career, and even though he had two gun bowlers until 2000, let's be honest; Ambrose and Walsh were not as lethal in the later stages of their career despite maintaining excellent averages and still giving great performances. Lara basically spend the last 7 years of his career fighting it out largely by himself

    This is what i mean by clutch:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeNuKAuy3BQ

    WI were in huge trouble at 12-3 and Lara scores 176. It takes immense mental strength to do that.

    this is another example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS5ETQrUmyk

    WI in trouble at 2 down for just 5 runs, and Brian scores a double century vs the best team in the world.

    And of course that glorious 153.

    With all due respect to Tendulkar, i simply don't think he was as clutch as Lara in tests though still an ATG. I think regardless of the final result of the match, Lara always demonstrated great mental strength and could fight fire with fire. If he had a better team around him for the majority of his career, he would have won so many games.
    I wasn't comparing him with SRT or anyone else. I just think that Lara being a match winner or clutch player is talked too much. Out of his long career, sure you will find some examples because Lara was a gun player. I don't think that Lara had disproportionate numbers of clutch knocks in his career when we start talking about gun players.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    I wasn't comparing him with SRT or anyone else. I just think that Lara being a match winner or clutch player is talked too much. Out of his long career, sure you will find some examples because Lara was a gun player. I don't think that Lara had disproportionate numbers of clutch knocks in his career when we start talking about gun players.
    I can agree with that.

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    Both are underated for me, opnions in this thread haven't done a lot to change that.

  35. #115
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    Donald isn't underrated.

    International Cricket is unlucky to miss out Allan Donald from 1986 to 1992 otherwise definitely He would have taken more than 550 Test Wickets.

    What a bowler he was. Even in his last year of Int Cricket He was athletic and quick.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Wasim was comfortably better than Donald in both formats. Imran was ahead by a distance in tests. Waqar was probably below Donald in tests and ahead in ODIs. Pollock though, isn't in the same league and is the Chanderpaul of bowling. Extremely boring L&L and a poor man's McGrath.


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  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magician View Post
    Are you really judging someone who was a bowler based on batting?
    I don't know how else can I state it when I have explained it in detail that it had absolutely nothing to do with his batting ability. He simply froze under pressure.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk031992 View Post
    Tendulkar was not necessarily a better player in both formats.

    Lara played arguably the greatest test innings we have seen in the last 30 years (153 vs Aus) under immense pressure. Lara was a master at counter attacking and scoring big big runs. I will take him over Tendulkar in tests

    People do not rank Lara higher than Tendulkar because of entertainment value, its because he was more clutch. Tendulkar was clearly better in odi's, no contest. But this isn't the case with tests.
    I personally rate Tendulkar higher. The thing with Lara was that his highs were higher than Tendulkar's, but his lows were also much lower.

    Tendulkar was a more consistent and reliable performer. Lara in ODIs became irrelevant after 1999.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    let me get this straight, what about us as Test loving nations, should we rate bottlers who never won a Test series in Australia or South Africa?
    Or wouldn't that suit the narrative?

    Of course you can, but the majority people will factor in World Cup performances and that is why South African players appear to be underrated, because the fail to compete with the other legends from other countries who excelled both in Tests and also won World Cups for their teams.

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It wasn't a non-existent run. Klusener made it to his end comfortably and Donald would have as well if he wasn't ball watching like an idiot.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWgDIFoqt4

    Pause at 0:15.

    Klusener was not even close. Mark Waugh did miss the stumps at the bowler's end but I probably think he saw that Donald had not run and just wanted to roll the ball to Fleming since he was terribly off balance.

    I agree that since Klusener was running to the danger end - it was his call but it was a a terrible, terrible run by any means. Too much risk for nothing and Klusener could have and should have finished it off by himself.

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulfiqar View Post
    I agree with the rest of your post about SA underachieving in the WC, but it's so cruel to blame that solely on Donald. Klusener made a horrible horrible decision to run on that ball. He lost his nerves right at the very end after a fantastic knock. Yes Donald probably should have ran anyway and not looked behind him, but usually when the ball goes RIGHT past you, you try to return to the crease first.

    It is not even about looking behind him; he was literally ball watching while Klusener on the other end managed to complete the run, and the Donald woke up and decide to trot to the other end and got run out. It was an unforgivable disaster.

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWgDIFoqt4

    Pause at 0:15.

    Klusener was not even close. Mark Waugh did miss the stumps at the bowler's end but I probably think he saw that Donald had not run and just wanted to roll the ball to Fleming since he was terribly off balance.

    I agree that since Klusener was running to the danger end - it was his call but it was a a terrible, terrible run by any means. Too much risk for nothing and Klusener could have and should have finished it off by himself.
    It is a risky run but it is not a terrible run. Watch how Mark Waugh is imbalanced at the time of releasing the ball. Yes he decided to roll the ball because Donald was frozen, but he was not in a position to take powerful throw in the first place because he had lost his footing when he was collecting the ball.

    Had Waugh tried to hit the stumps at Klusener's end, it would have been tight, yes, but the point is that Donald should not have been ball watching to the point that he only start to run when Klusener flashed past him. Had he decided to take off at the same time as Klusener, it would have been very likely that they would have completed the run.

  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is a risky run but it is not a terrible run. Watch how Mark Waugh is imbalanced at the time of releasing the ball. Yes he decided to roll the ball because Donald was frozen, but he was not in a position to take powerful throw in the first place because he had lost his footing when he was collecting the ball.

    Had Waugh tried to hit the stumps at Klusener's end, it would have been tight, yes, but the point is that Donald should not have been ball watching to the point that he only start to run when Klusener flashed past him. Had he decided to take off at the same time as Klusener, it would have been very likely that they would have completed the run.
    Had Donald ran - I am sure Waugh would have aimed directly at the bowler's stumps (off-balance or not).

    It is all ifs and buts at this stage but I still fail to understand why Klusener even risked a risky single with 2 balls remaining. He had hit two boundaries off the previous two balls - could he not have waited another ball or even took it to the last ball?

    I still blame Klusener more for that loss - he panicked and set off for a non-existant single which was not there. Although Donald was precautious given that during the previous ball - Lehman almost ran him out but even him running would still probably have resulted in a runout IMO.

    Klusener forced his own hand too early...

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adijazz1706 View Post
    I'd put Wasim ahead of Donald and Waqar ahead of Walsh, and Waqar (416 ODI wickets at <24 avg) ahead of Donald and Ambrose in ODIs.
    Donald was ahead of Wasim simply because he averages better and has better strike rate despite never bowling before he was 26.

    Walsh was comfortably better than Waqar in tests. After 1994, Waqar was nothing special really, averaged 28 in 54 tests. Walsh, on the other hand, averaged 23 in 64 tests. I would say even Gillespie was a better bowler than Waqar. The likes of Donald and Pollock were far far ahead.

    In his peak Waqar was a better bowler than most but overall Walsh and others had much better careers.

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Wasim was comfortably better than Donald in both formats. Imran was ahead by a distance in tests. Waqar was probably below Donald in tests and ahead in ODIs. Pollock though, isn't in the same league and is the Chanderpaul of bowling. Extremely boring L&L and a poor man's McGrath.
    What does boring has to do with greatness? The guy averages 21 against all teams (excluding Australia) in tests and was the #1 ODI bowler for a very long time.

  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    What does boring has to do with greatness? The guy averages 21 against all teams (excluding Australia) in tests and was the #1 ODI bowler for a very long time.
    It has a to do a lot with greatness. A boring player will rarely be hyped as much as an exciting player would be.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk031992 View Post
    Waqar was the no 1 bowler for good about 4 years. Walsh wasn't and neither was Pollock.
    Pollock occupied rank 1 for a similar period as Waqar and Waqar wasn't rank 1 for 4 years. Waqar was ranked among the top 2 for 4 years, but then Pollock was ranked among the top 3 for majority of his career.


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  48. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    After 1994, Waqar was nothing special really, averaged 28 in 54 tests.
    Waqar played 43 tests against non-minnows after 1994. In his last 8-9 years of his career, his average against non-minnows was 31.6 with only one 5-fer. That's pretty ordinary. Normally a bowler with 1 5-fers in 8-9 years will be not be even remembered. Imagine a equivalent , a batsman making 1 ton in 8-9 years against non-minnows.

    You are spot on with him being nothing special after 1994.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It has a to do a lot with greatness. A boring player will rarely be hyped as much as an exciting player would be.
    McGrath is hyped to the rafters.

  50. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Waqar played 43 tests against non-minnows after 1994. In his last 8-9 years of his career, his average against non-minnows was 31.6 with only one 5-fer. That's pretty ordinary. Normally a bowler with 1 5-fers in 8-9 years will be not be even remembered. Imagine a equivalent , a batsman making 1 ton in 8-9 years against non-minnows.

    You are spot on with him being nothing special after 1994.
    Yes, on the other hand as far as I remember Walsh really improved as a bowler in late 90s.

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    all south africans are underrated. if kallis was born in australia or india, they'd be calling him the greatest batsman of all time but it feels he is almost forgotten now.

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Yes, on the other hand as far as I remember Walsh really improved as a bowler in late 90s.
    Yes, Walsh did very well after 1994. He got 15 5-fers and 2 10-fers at 23 a piece after 1994. All 5-fers and 10fers were against big teams as well.


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  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    McGrath is hyped to the rafters.
    Because he had a very exciting personality with naming his targets before matches, sledging, natural charisma, etc. Pollock has none of this.


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  54. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Because he had a very exciting personality with naming his targets before matches, sledging, natural charisma, etc. Pollock has none of this.
    Pollock would name his targets too if he had a team capable of compiling 500+ runs regularly, coupled with an awesome bowling cast.
    McGrath would have been a regular bloke like Pollock if not for Warne, Gillespie and Lee.

    McGrath would never lead an attack on his own similar to Pollock despite having great numbers everyone knows Ntini was the strike bowler.
    I found absolutely nothing charismatic about McGrath, neither did the SA players and public.

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Had Donald ran - I am sure Waugh would have aimed directly at the bowler's stumps (off-balance or not).

    It is all ifs and buts at this stage but I still fail to understand why Klusener even risked a risky single with 2 balls remaining. He had hit two boundaries off the previous two balls - could he not have waited another ball or even took it to the last ball?

    I still blame Klusener more for that loss - he panicked and set off for a non-existant single which was not there. Although Donald was precautious given that during the previous ball - Lehman almost ran him out but even him running would still probably have resulted in a runout IMO.

    Klusener forced his own hand too early...
    Yup my thoughts too. Donald was almsot run out just backing up to his crease the previous ball; he would have made sure to at least not get run out, given that Klusener was blasting boundaries off of impossible deliveries and was in the form of his life. Surely he could've got one more away in 2 more deliveries with the OZ field up in the circle.


    Have the players going forward, just need coaching&professionalism! #1 priority: fielding

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    Quote Originally Posted by zulfiqar View Post
    Yup my thoughts too. Donald was almsot run out just backing up to his crease the previous ball; he would have made sure to at least not get run out, given that Klusener was blasting boundaries off of impossible deliveries and was in the form of his life. Surely he could've got one more away in 2 more deliveries with the OZ field up in the circle.
    Yep - I completely agree.

    Klusener panicked and succumbed to the pressure IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Donald was ahead of Wasim simply because he averages better and has better strike rate despite never bowling before he was 26.

    Walsh was comfortably better than Waqar in tests. After 1994, Waqar was nothing special really, averaged 28 in 54 tests. Walsh, on the other hand, averaged 23 in 64 tests. I would say even Gillespie was a better bowler than Waqar. The likes of Donald and Pollock were far far ahead.

    In his peak Waqar was a better bowler than most but overall Walsh and others had much better careers.
    clueless. Gillespie a better bowler than Waqar? If you are talking late in his career, yes. You are comparing a player past his prime to someone in his prime. I guess Amla is a better batter than Tendulkar too. In their overall careers, no, it is a no contest, Waqar is an ATG, Gillespie is not.

    So what is Waqar was not as good post 94? The simple reality is that for a good about 4-5 years, Waqar was considered the best in the world along with Ambrose. That simply cannot be discounted.

    To state that Pollock and Walsh had "far better" careers is a joke. Is that why they ended up with similar numbers? No one rates Pollock or Walsh ahead of Waqar. I will take a great peak followed by a decent post peak over very good consistency any day of the week. Claming that they had much better careers once again demonstrates zero knowledge.

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    Why is there little appreciation for Allan Donald and Shaun Pollock?

    The two are arguably the greatest South African fast bowlers in history and Pollock was very hand with the bat as well !

    Growing up I loved watching the two bowl and especially Allan Donald!

    I find it bizarre that they are rarely given much attention, it must be mostly to do with kids these days who do not study history and advocate the greatness of professionals in the sissy era of cricket.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  59. #139
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    there is a lot of appreciation for donald, pollock failed against australia and is a bit of a fraud. good bowler but not a great


    How odd I can have all this inside me and to you it's just words.

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    if u are not from india ,aus and eng,then there will be the same story......

  61. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by majiz View Post
    there is a lot of appreciation for donald, pollock failed against australia and is a bit of a fraud. good bowler but not a great
    Hardly, the numbers are not great in AUS but not bad either especially compared to other ATG's like Waqar Younis for example.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  62. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Hardly, the numbers are not great in AUS but not bad either especially compared to other ATG's like Waqar Younis for example.
    yhh maybe but thats just one country, pollock is definitely not as good as waqar, pollock was a bit of a homebabby and only really good in SA or england. pollock was quite pedestrian really, built for south african pitches but really unremarkable


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    SA players generally don't get their plaudits. Once ABDV retires, a couple years after that not many people will mention his name in the same way they'll mention, say a Gayle, Kohli, Root.

    Heck look at Kallis - one of the best ARs ever to play the game, yet you've missed him out as well

    I believe the reason is due to the media though. We get a lot more exposure to English, Australian and Indian news. We hardly hear anything about SA players or news unless it's Kolpaks or a quota discussion.

  64. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by majiz View Post
    yhh maybe but thats just one country, pollock is definitely not as good as waqar, pollock was a bit of a homebabby and only really good in SA or england. pollock was quite pedestrian really, built for south african pitches but really unremarkable
    That's a myth:

    Bowling average in countries other then SA/ENG

    In IND: 27.38
    In NZ: 23
    In PAK: 22.55
    In SL: 25.13
    In WI: 28.75

    And he was very handy with the bat as well mind you ! averaged 30+


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  65. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by idrizzy View Post
    SA players generally don't get their plaudits. Once ABDV retires, a couple years after that not many people will mention his name in the same way they'll mention, say a Gayle, Kohli, Root.

    Heck look at Kallis - one of the best ARs ever to play the game, yet you've missed him out as well

    I believe the reason is due to the media though. We get a lot more exposure to English, Australian and Indian news. We hardly hear anything about SA players or news unless it's Kolpaks or a quota discussion.
    Kallis is criminally underrated, although he is still sought of fresh in our minds people will still mention him every now and then but Allan Donald and Pollock rarely are given much attention. Imagine if these blokes were English or Indian !


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  66. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Kallis is criminally underrated, although he is still sought of fresh in our minds people will still mention him every now and then but Allan Donald and Pollock rarely are given much attention. Imagine if these blokes were English or Indian !
    I agree. I mean I hear more about Flintoff than Pollock even though Pollock in my view was a better cricketer. Both are comparable as they're bowling-AR. Even if they're batting-AR Pollock still has a higher average than him

  67. #147
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    only young hippies dont have appreciation for them


    #MPGA

  68. #148
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    COz the RSA are incredibly boring. I hate watching them play.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  69. #149
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    No publicity. I'm pretty sure if you ask an average Indian cricket fan, they would be convinced that Jasprit Bumrah is a much better bowler than Allan Donald ever was. Hard to get noticed if you don't have a powerful media behind you.

  70. #150
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    Both are underated Pollock was one one of he best of his era And yes they are underated because they are from RSA

    Donald is as good as most fast bowlers in history and definetly in my top 10 ever

  71. #151
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    South African players are just as rated as any others. It is a complete myth that they are this underappreciated army of genius enigmas.

    For example we are all given no choice but to accept that Barry Richards would get into an all-time World XI as opener, even though many of the people who saw him play are dead and he featured in a whole 4 Test matches.

    And we are constantly told that Jacques Kallis is an all-rounder on par with Imran Khan, Gary Sobers and Ian Botham - despite the fact that nobody can remember a single innings or bowling performance attributed to Kallis.

    Not to mention the exulted status given to Hashim Amla who seems to be placed alongside the true ATG batters like Ponting, Dravid and Tendulkar - despite having a Test average below 50. And the godlike imagery associated with AB De Villiers, who is too arrogant and lazy to even turn up for Test tours.

    For the record, in reference to the OP - Donald truly stands with his peers such as McGrath, Ambrose, Wasim and Waqar as a modern great.

    But South African players are rated and not rated just like any other players. That is truth.

  72. #152
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    Donald is rated as one of the best just below McGrath/Ambrose in 90s. Pollock was rated very high till the end of 90s. His performance was as good as anyone till then. After that he was not a bowler you will run thorough sides. That's why Pollock is rated lower.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  73. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    The two are arguably the greatest South African fast bowlers in history and Pollock was very hand with the bat as well !

    Growing up I loved watching the two bowl and especially Allan Donald!

    I find it bizarre that they are rarely given much attention, it must be mostly to do with kids these days who do not study history and advocate the greatness of professionals in the sissy era of cricket.
    Don't think the rest of us are misled into believing that this is about South Africa! I can see the whole Warwickshire side of this thread! I'm surprised you didn't add in a bit about Roger Twose and Paul Smith! Is Gladstone Small the GOAT?

    I think that they are some of South Africa's greatest ever bowlers.

    South African's Greatest Bowlers
    1. Mike Procter
    2. Dale Steyn
    3. Neil Adcock
    4. Shaun Pollock
    5. Allan Donald

    South Africa's Greatest Players
    1. Barry Richards
    2. Mike Procter
    3. Jacques Kallis
    4. Dale Steyn
    5. Shaun Pollock (because he could bat too!)

  74. #154
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    Donald and Pollock are respected. They are not celebrated. The reason is that they don't come from a team which is charishmatic like India or England or Australia. Your team has to be charishmatic and should have mad following for a player to be celebrated. Otherwise they end up being respected and looked up to when the time comes.

  75. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by ipl_fan View Post
    Donald and Pollock are respected. They are not celebrated. The reason is that they don't come from a team which is charishmatic like India or England or Australia. Your team has to be charishmatic and should have mad following for a player to be celebrated. Otherwise they end up being respected and looked up to when the time comes.
    I agree with your charisma comments except for the word "India".

    The reality is, a team's charisma is derived exclusively from electrifying fast bowling. That's why English fans love Pakistan at their best, and it's why most non-Indian cricket fans consider India and Sri Lanka boring and unattractive even when their batsmen are superb and winning matches.

    And it's why even an Englishman like me is desperately hoping that in The Ashes the Aussies field an attack of:

    Starc
    Hazlewood
    Cummins
    Pattinson

    I literally could not care less if Finch, Warner, Smith and Maxwell score 460-2 in an ODI.

    But get those four pacemen together in a Test match, even against my own team, and I'll be ecstatic.

  76. #156
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    Lol already made a thread on this. Donald in particular is underated. His overall bowling record in icc tournaments isn't that bad as well.

    Pollock lacks flair, that's a reason I can think of as to why he doesn't get much attention.

    Donald is an atg for me and Pollock is just a level below.

  77. #157
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    You don't get the nickname white lightning by being boring. He was a big mean fast bowler and I don't believe anyone underrates him. Polly on the other hand doesn't get the appreciation he deserves.

  78. #158
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    One reason is because South Africa from the 90s were associated with bland and conservative cricket, and hence their world class players were not celebrated the same way as other flashier teams.

    The other major reason is Australia. They were they best team of the 90s and 2000s and never really rated either Donald or Pollock the way they rated Akram and Ambrose, though they had a few decent performances against the Aussies around 97/98. If you dont get praise from the Aussies, you will remain under the radar.

  79. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Don't think the rest of us are misled into believing that this is about South Africa! I can see the whole Warwickshire side of this thread! I'm surprised you didn't add in a bit about Roger Twose and Paul Smith! Is Gladstone Small the GOAT?

    I think that they are some of South Africa's greatest ever bowlers.

    South African's Greatest Bowlers
    1. Mike Procter
    2. Dale Steyn
    3. Neil Adcock
    4. Shaun Pollock
    5. Allan Donald

    South Africa's Greatest Players
    1. Barry Richards
    2. Mike Procter
    3. Jacques Kallis
    4. Dale Steyn
    5. Shaun Pollock (because he could bat too!)
    You caught me out Junaids ! @Big Mac and it's no secret you're a big fan girl of Warwickshire deep down, I can sense it

    Interesting that you rate Pollock the bowler ahead of Donald, reasons ?

    Steyn has been outstanding in this PG era of cricket which favours the batsman but an interesting point was raised recently with regards to batsman being white ball specialists and having poor technique's against the moving ball, despite that do you still rate Dale ahead of Donald/Pollock ?


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  80. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    You caught me out Junaids ! @Big Mac and it's no secret you're a big fan girl of Warwickshire deep down, I can sense it

    Interesting that you rate Pollock the bowler ahead of Donald, reasons ?

    Steyn has been outstanding in this PG era of cricket which favours the batsman but an interesting point was raised recently with regards to batsman being white ball specialists and having poor technique's against the moving ball, despite that do you still rate Dale ahead of Donald/Pollock ?
    Donald was quicker, but from 1998-2002 many players around the world thought that Polly had learned to be the first bowler in history to learn to control seaming it in and out with the same action. Plus he could bat.

    Very hard to separate the pair of them.

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