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  1. #1
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    Has Ravichandran Ashwin surpassed Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh as the best ever Indian spinner?

    Discuss.

    Asides from the wicket tally Ofcourse because wel he has played fewer matches but there is enough of a sample set now. .

    Bhajji says that it's due to the pitches Ashwin gets and if he and Kumble got same pitches they would have superior records

  2. #2
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    No Harbajan is way way better than ashwin, at least he took 5fers in away countries, while ashwin is home track bully

  3. #3
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    At home grounds he has surpassed both. Kumble benefitted from dug up pitches in the mid 90s under Wadekar/Azhar. Overseas he is behind both.Not that Bhajji was outstanding. At home grounds he is probably the best Indian bowler ever even at this stage.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ali ray View Post
    No Harbajan is way way better than ashwin, at least he took 5fers in away countries, while ashwin is home track bully
    What s bhajjis away record

    I know Kumble was largely a failure in away conditions but not sure about Bhajji

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    What s bhajjis away record

    I know Kumble was largely a failure in away conditions but not sure about Bhajji
    Kumble is hardly a failure overseas

  6. #6
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    Slog's Avatar
    Slog 22.6 average in england, 33 average in australia, 38 average in southafrica

  7. #7
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    Bhajji yes, Kumble no.

    Bhajji's peak lasted for two years. Though he did pick wickets in India, he wasn't consistent enough.

    Kumble improved a lot in 2000s and with the addition of googly in his armour he started picking more wickets overseas.

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    Not much to chhose from in away record.
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W 10W
    SP Gupte 1953-1959 15 65 28.52 2.3 74.4 6 0
    ** Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 26 100 32.66 2.89 67.7 8 1
    R Ashwin 2011-2016 17 67 33.23 3.2 62.1 5 1
    ** Bedi 1967-1979 37 129 33.72 2.37 85 6 1
    EAS Prasanna 1962-1978 27 94 33.85 2.49 81.4 5 1
    A Kumble 1990-2008 69 269 35.85 2.88 74.5 10 1
    Harbhajan Singh 1998-2015 48 152 38.9 3.06 76.2 7 1
    MH Mankad 1946-1955 21 59 42.42 2.17 117.2 4 0
    RJ Shastri 1981-1992 42 78 42.85 2.42 106.1 1 0
    S Venkataraghavan 1967-1983 25 62 44.4 2.5 106.4 1 0


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnaveen1980 View Post
    Kumble is hardly a failure overseas
    His away average nearing 40 suggests that

    In England, Pakistan, NZ, Australia and SL he averaged around 40 or higher

    In later half of his career he had some respectable returns but nothing you would expect from a great spinner

  10. #10
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    Ashwin is on his way to become India's greatest spinner.

  11. #11
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    As a batsman --> Yes

  12. #12
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    Bedi was best overseas spinner if you don't count Pak , Kumble from 2002 England series was good if you don't count Pak 2006 series.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navdeep Srivastava View Post
    Bedi was best overseas spinner if you don't count Pak , Kumble from 2002 England series was good if you don't count Pak 2006 series.
    Will still pick Ashwin/Harbhajan/Kumble over Bedi simply because Bedi was a total liability in the field and could not hold a bat to save his life. That attitude will not fly in today's test cricket.

    Harbhajan, for all of his flaws, saved India when they were 15/5 with an incredible ton. Ashwin is the premier allrounder in test cricket today.

    Kumble scored a ton in England when no one could.

    Cannot see Bedi doing that at all.


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  14. #14
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    Not yet but he is pretty close to Harbi ... Kumble is still a mile away ... at this rate another 2-3 yrs and he will be there.

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    I think I would agree with Bhajji since they didn't get such rank turners as they do today in India and if they did, it surely wasn't as often. I mean, when guys like Dean Elgar take 4fers, it really gets you thinking about the quality of the pitches, doesn't it?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbdullahSalman View Post
    I think I would agree with Bhajji since they didn't get such rank turners as they do today in India and if they did, it surely wasn't as often. I mean, when guys like Dean Elgar take 4fers, it really gets you thinking about the quality of the pitches, doesn't it?
    In how many matches did Dean Elgar take 4fers? How many spinners of Dean Elgar's calibre have taken 4fers since the South Africa series? Just because South Africa got 2 rank turners does not make every pitch that has been laid out for test cricket India since a rank turner.


    I am not one of those who when expressing opinions confine themselves to facts.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by samplepiece View Post
    In how many matches did Dean Elgar take 4fers? How many spinners of Dean Elgar's calibre have taken 4fers since the South Africa series? Just because South Africa got 2 rank turners does not make every pitch that has been laid out for test cricket India since a rank turner.
    All I'm saying is that pitches in India are usually rank turners, one at least in three matches which has been a great help in Ravi Ashwin having done as well as he has. We will speak of him having surpassed Bhajji once he performs outside India and Kumble once he picks up 600+ wickets.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by samplepiece View Post
    In how many matches did Dean Elgar take 4fers? How many spinners of Dean Elgar's calibre have taken 4fers since the South Africa series? Just because South Africa got 2 rank turners does not make every pitch that has been laid out for test cricket India since a rank turner.
    People just remember the 2 rank turners that SA got and conveniently forget the current England series and even the NZ series (one of the test was a green wicket where Bhuvi Kumar destroyed Kiwis).

    To me Ashwin is far more lethal than Kumble and Harbhajan ever was.

    Kumble deceived the batsman with his pace and on Day-5 pitches with uneven bounce, he was deadly.

    Bhajji was a decent spinner. Played a good supporting role to Kumble.

    Ashwin has every trick in his armlury, has far more variety and looks like taking wicket almost every ball. Its a rare quality in any Indian bowler.

    Not to forget, Ashwin is a much better batsman than both Kumble and Bhajji. The latter are good for 20-30 runs on a good day. Ashwin can score hundred on a good day.

  19. #19
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    I dont remember Ashwin doing anything in tests away from home against strong test nations

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by umerz View Post
    I dont remember Ashwin doing anything in tests away from home against strong test nations
    The sample set is too small for Ashwin.

    MS Dhoni preferred Jadeja over Ashwin in over seas tests. Ashwin was a back up to Jaddu when India tours.

    Only in the last 1 year, Ashwin clearly announced himself as the leader of Indian spin attack. Before that, it was a toss up mostly between Jaddu/Ashwin/Ojha/Mishra etc with Jaddu slightly a head of the pack.


  21. #21
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    He has more variety than both. Right now, I don't see him finishing his career below Harbhajan. Kumble will require more work from him.

    Look where batsman is playing him and direction of ball. Top class stuff. It's rare to see a good batsman deceived by such a big margin when playing on backfoot.

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by umerz View Post
    I dont remember Ashwin doing anything in tests away from home against strong test nations
    He has a long career to go

    Let's see how he does over his next set of overseas tours

    If he doesn't perform well in those then yeah it's fair to say that he is a home bully.

    Id say same with both Ashwin abroad and Kohli in England. They are far superior players now (even at home) then they were a few years ago so there is every chance they will fix the holes in their records

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Discuss.

    Asides from the wicket tally Ofcourse because wel he has played fewer matches but there is enough of a sample set now. .

    Bhajji says that it's due to the pitches Ashwin gets and if he and Kumble got same pitches they would have superior records
    Longevity is an achievement in and of itself, so it's tricky with Kumble, but.

    Yes.

    Soon, a more relevant comparison will be with Murli.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    He has more variety than both. Right now, I don't see him finishing his career below Harbhajan. Kumble will require more work from him.

    Look where batsman is playing him and direction of ball. Top class stuff. It's rare to see a good batsman deceived by such a big margin when playing on backfoot.

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    Haven't seen much of the series - is that a conventional leg-spinner? Does he bowl it often? Surely good batsmen can pick it...


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Haven't seen much of the series - is that a conventional leg-spinner? Does he bowl it often? Surely good batsmen can pick it...
    That was variation that nearly destroyed his(Ashwin) career - The carrom ball.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JattMaula View Post
    That was variation that nearly destroyed his(Ashwin) career - The carrom ball.
    Ah yes. Forgot about that. Thanks.


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  27. #27
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    Kumble? Are you serious?

    And it's hard to pick between ashwin ansd harbajhan when it comes to javelin

  28. #28
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    For me, he is better than both Kumble (only world class in India) and Harbhajan (worst bowler to have taken 400 test wickets).

  29. #29
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    Harbhajan was as overrated as they come.

    Ashwin has shaded him already. I'm sure come our next cycle of overseas tours, he'll do well with both bat and ball (though not as prodigiously as in India).

  30. #30
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    I don't know about stats but Harbhajan came close to bowling his side to a series win in South Africa. Ashwin is a long way away from that.
    It's all well and good dominating Western nations and an incompetent Sri Lankan side in Asia.
    True test lies away from his comfort zone, only then will we have any measure of the man.

  31. #31
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    Surpassed Harbhajan as a better performer at home pitches but away Harbhajan was involved in some crucial wins. Be it Hamilton '09 test or Durban '11.

    As far as Kumble is concerned, Ashwin has become as important as Kumble was for us but again, needs to do more away. He's made a start with SL and WI, next is SA.

  32. #32
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    He's only a conventional offspinner. We shouldn't expect miracles from him in OZ/ENG/SA etc. where he should take on the containing role.


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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricfan4eva View Post
    Surpassed Harbhajan as a better performer at home pitches but away Harbhajan was involved in some crucial wins. Be it Hamilton '09 test or Durban '11.

    As far as Kumble is concerned, Ashwin has become as important as Kumble was for us but again, needs to do more away. He's made a start with SL and WI, next is SA.
    I never knew but was surprised to see Kumble struggled in SL and Pak as well generally (well Pak 2006 had terrible pitches to be fair)

  34. #34
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    Let us not forget Muralitharan has an average of 45 in India.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeetu View Post
    Not much to chhose from in away record.
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W 10W
    SP Gupte 1953-1959 15 65 28.52 2.3 74.4 6 0
    ** Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 26 100 32.66 2.89 67.7 8 1
    R Ashwin 2011-2016 17 67 33.23 3.2 62.1 5 1
    ** Bedi 1967-1979 37 129 33.72 2.37 85 6 1
    EAS Prasanna 1962-1978 27 94 33.85 2.49 81.4 5 1
    A Kumble 1990-2008 69 269 35.85 2.88 74.5 10 1
    Harbhajan Singh 1998-2015 48 152 38.9 3.06 76.2 7 1
    MH Mankad 1946-1955 21 59 42.42 2.17 117.2 4 0
    RJ Shastri 1981-1992 42 78 42.85 2.42 106.1 1 0
    S Venkataraghavan 1967-1983 25 62 44.4 2.5 106.4 1 0
    From the above, SP Gupte appears to be way better than the others.

    Also don't forget, this would be in the days of no Pakistan, no Bangladesh, no Sri Lanka (ie no 'away' subcontinental conditions), no Zimbabwe and no India v South Africa, a time when Indian & Pakistani cricketers were treated as 2nd class (remember what Gavaskar has said - and that was in the 70's and 80's - and even in 2008 when he made the comment "Millions of Indians want to know if it [match referee Mike Procter's verdict against Harbhajan Singh] was a 'white man' taking the 'white man's' word against that of the 'brown man'!)

    So if SP Gupte's away figures were still that good in the 50's despite all that was stacked against the Indians, then imagine how good he would be today with the BCCI ruling the world of cricket.


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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I never knew but was surprised to see Kumble struggled in SL and Pak as well generally (well Pak 2006 had terrible pitches to be fair)
    Pak and SL also had a solid batting unit in the last decade to be fair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    From the above, SP Gupte appears to be way better than the others.

    Also don't forget, this would be in the days of no Pakistan, no Bangladesh, no Sri Lanka (ie no 'away' subcontinental conditions), no Zimbabwe and no India v South Africa, a time when Indian & Pakistani cricketers were treated as 2nd class (remember what Gavaskar has said - and that was in the 70's and 80's - and even in 2008 when he made the comment "Millions of Indians want to know if it [match referee Mike Procter's verdict against Harbhajan Singh] was a 'white man' taking the 'white man's' word against that of the 'brown man'!)

    So if SP Gupte's away figures were still that good in the 50's despite all that was stacked against the Indians, then imagine how good he would be today with the BCCI ruling the world of cricket.
    Subhash Gupte Span Mat Inns Wkts Ave SR 5W
    overall 1951-1961 36 61 149 29.55 75.7 12
    v Australia 1956-1956 3 4 8 32.87 72.3 0
    v England 1951-1961 8 12 24 37.62 81.6 1
    v New Zealand 1955-1956 5 10 34 19.67 62.9 4
    v Pakistan 1952-1961 10 18 34 25.05 80.9 3
    v West Indies 1953-1959 10 17 49 35.02 78.6 4
    in England 1959-1959 5 7 17 34.64 70.4 0
    in India 1951-1961 21 36 84 30.34 76.7 6
    in Pakistan 1955-1955 5 9 21 22.66 79 3
    in West Indies 1953-1953 5 9 27 29.22 73.2 3
    home 1951-1961 21 36 84 30.34 76.7 6
    away 1953-1959 15 25 65 28.52 74.4 6

    He was first great subcontinent leggie. Why he didn't play much is beyond me.


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  38. #38
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    Statistics from the past cannot directly be compared with present stats. It all depends on how good the opposition was at the time. Lot of intangible factors that would play a role. With one dayers, T20 game has evolved a lot. It is far more competitive, approach is different, strategy is different, even tailenders bat very well these days.

    This is the list of batsmen Ashwin dismissed



    This is the list of batsmen Gupte dismissed


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    Should be underachiever if he doesn't surpass both of them.

    I can think of him ending up as good a bowler as Swann( he was more all-round but Ashwin's dominating ability is unbelievable).

    As a batsmen he is ahead of two anyways.

    500 wickets and 5000 runs is what he can reach to if he maintains his form and fitness till late 30s.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbdullahSalman View Post
    All I'm saying is that pitches in India are usually rank turners, one at least in three matches which has been a great help in Ravi Ashwin having done as well as he has. We will speak of him having surpassed Bhajji once he performs outside India and Kumble once he picks up 600+ wickets.
    Which is not true. Only 2 rank turners that RSA were dished out of 11 tests we have played so far against SA, NZ and Eng at home recently. Doesnt conform to my definition of 'usually'.


    I am not one of those who when expressing opinions confine themselves to facts.

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    Icc player ratings are a good indicator for comparing players across decades as it takes in account the rating of the batsman dismissed at the time etc. And looking at those rating he has easily surpassed Harbhajan. If he plays for another 3-4 years as similar level or even if a biut below will be ahead of Kumble as well.

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    imo Harbajan was not a good bowler at all, and Ashwin has surpassed him a long time ago.

    Additionally, I think Kumble is overrated. However, he did manage to take 600+ test wickets which is obviously something. However, if Ashwin manages to take another 150 wkts or so (and reach 400 wkts), while keeping his superior average, I think Ashwin piques out Kumble as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeetu View Post
    Not much to chhose from in away record.
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W 10W
    SP Gupte 1953-1959 15 65 28.52 2.3 74.4 6 0
    ** Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 26 100 32.66 2.89 67.7 8 1
    R Ashwin 2011-2016 17 67 33.23 3.2 62.1 5 1
    ** Bedi 1967-1979 37 129 33.72 2.37 85 6 1
    EAS Prasanna 1962-1978 27 94 33.85 2.49 81.4 5 1
    A Kumble 1990-2008 69 269 35.85 2.88 74.5 10 1
    Harbhajan Singh 1998-2015 48 152 38.9 3.06 76.2 7 1
    MH Mankad 1946-1955 21 59 42.42 2.17 117.2 4 0
    RJ Shastri 1981-1992 42 78 42.85 2.42 106.1 1 0
    S Venkataraghavan 1967-1983 25 62 44.4 2.5 106.4 1 0
    Could you post their stats in England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and West Indies?


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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Could you post their stats in England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and West Indies?
    Bowling figures of Indian Spinners in Non Asian countries. (Min 10 wickets)

    In England
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W
    Maninder Singh 1986-1986 3 12 15.58 1.63 57 0
    Ghulam Ahmed 1952-1952 4 15 24.73 2 74 1
    MH Mankad 1946-1952 6 20 33.9 2.16 93.8 2
    ** Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 9 31 33.96 2.72 74.8 2
    SP Gupte 1959-1959 5 17 34.64 2.94 70.4 0
    DR Doshi 1982-1982 3 13 35 2.89 72.5 1
    ** Bedi 1967-1979 12 35 38.08 2.54 89.9 1
    S Venkataraghavan 1967-1979 10 20 41.05 2.58 95.2 0
    A Kumble 1990-2007 10 36 41.41 2.84 87.4 0
    Harbhajan Singh 2002-2011 5 14 49.78 3.39 88 1
    EAS Prasanna 1967-1974 5 12 58.08 2.87 121.2 0
    RJ Shastri 1982-1990 9 11 70.63 2.65 159.4 0

    In Australia
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W
    RJ Shastri 1985-1992 6 19 26.31 1.97 79.8 0
    ** Bedi 1968-1978 7 35 27.51 2.41 68.3 3
    NS Yadav 1981-1986 5 23 28.13 2.19 76.9 1
    ** Chandrasekhar 1967-1978 7 29 30.27 2.69 67.4 3
    EAS Prasanna 1967-1978 8 31 31.12 2.26 82.6 2
    A Kumble 1999-2008 10 49 37.73 3.46 65.3 4
    DR Doshi 1981-1981 3 11 40 2.41 99.2 0
    MH Mankad 1947-1948 5 12 52.5 2.71 116 0
    R Ashwin 2011-2015 6 21 54.71 3.38 97 0

    In South Africa
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W
    A Kumble 1992-2007 12 45 32.02 2.26 84.7 1
    Harbhajan Singh 2001-2011 4 18 34 3.19 63.7 1

    In West Indies
    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W
    R Ashwin 2016-2016 4 17 23.17 3 46.2 2
    Harbhajan Singh 2002-2011 8 36 25.86 2.76 56.1 3
    SP Gupte 1953-1953 5 27 29.22 2.39 73.2 3
    SB Joshi 1997-1997 4 11 30.09 2.75 65.5 0
    ** Chandrasekhar 1976-1976 4 21 31.23 3.25 57.5 2
    A Kumble 1997-2006 11 45 31.28 2.91 64.4 3
    Arshad Ayub 1989-1989 4 14 32.21 2.62 73.6 2
    ** Bedi 1971-1976 9 33 33.69 2.17 93 1
    A Mishra 2011-2016 3 10 34.5 3.56 58 0
    SA Durani 1962-1971 8 20 38.05 2.62 87.1 0
    EAS Prasanna 1962-1976 5 14 42.5 2.54 100.2 0
    S Venkataraghavan 1971-1983 13 39 43.58 2.58 101.1 1
    RJ Shastri 1983-1989 9 17 47.7 2.69 106.1 0
    MH Mankad 1953-1953 5 15 53.06 2.3 138 1

    In New Zealand

    Player Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W
    RG Nadkarni 1968-1968 4 14 17.92 1.35 79.5 1
    RJ Shastri 1981-1981 3 15 18.46 1.88 58.8 1
    EAS Prasanna 1968-1976 7 35 19.25 2.3 50.1 3
    Harbhajan Singh 1998-2009 6 21 24.19 2.37 61 1
    ** Bedi 1968-1976 6 20 24.65 1.92 76.8 1
    ** Chandrasekhar 1976-1976 3 11 26.72 2.45 65.3 1
    A Kumble 1994-1999 3 11 40.27 2.31 104.4 0
    Last edited by jeetu; 13th December 2016 at 12:53.


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

  45. #45
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    Ashwin's Test Record

    Ashwin Span Mat Wkts Ave Econ SR 5W 10W
    overall 2011-2016 43 247 24.22 2.91 49.8 24 7
    v Australia 2011-2015 10 50 34.64 2.98 69.7 4 1
    v Bangladesh 2015-2015 1 5 19 3.06 37.2 1 0
    v England 2012-2016 10 44 33.59 2.89 69.6 3 1
    v New Zealand 2012-2016 5 45 15.91 3.03 31.4 6 3
    v South Africa 2013-2015 5 31 14.61 2.19 40 4 1
    v Sri Lanka 2015-2015 3 21 18.09 3.3 32.8 2 1
    v West Indies 2011-2016 9 51 22.15 3.02 43.8 4 0
    in Australia 2011-2015 6 21 54.71 3.38 97 0 0
    in Bangladesh 2015-2015 1 5 19 3.06 37.2 1 0
    in England 2014-2014 2 3 33.66 2.84 71 0 0
    in India 2011-2016 26 180 20.87 2.76 45.2 19 6
    in South Africa 2013-2013 1 0 - 2.57 - 0 0
    in Sri Lanka 2015-2015 3 21 18.09 3.3 32.8 2 1
    in West Indies 2016-2016 4 17 23.17 3 46.2 2 0
    home 2011-2016 26 180 20.87 2.76 45.2 19 6
    away 2011-2016 17 67 33.23 3.2 62.1 5 1


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

  46. #46
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    I am not sure whether Bhajj and Ashwin chucks or not.But i have suspicion.That's why Kumble is way above them in my eyes.

  47. #47
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    Thanks, jeetu bhai. Bedi is quite possibly India's best spinner ever. Has a much more balanced record than the other three spinners mentioned here.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainul View Post
    I am not sure whether Bhajj and Ashwin chucks or not.But i have suspicion.That's why Kumble is way above them in my eyes.
    Ashwin has openly admitted to chucking in the past, in a domestic T20 league, IIRC.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Ashwin has openly admitted to chucking in the past, in a domestic T20 league, IIRC.
    He tried copying Narine's action as he felt if Narine can bowl like that so could he. Once Narine got warned he stopped as well. I don't think Ashwin current action is bad Harbhajan on the other hand.


    "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought"-JFK

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Ashwin has openly admitted to chucking in the past, in a domestic T20 league, IIRC.
    Really? If he chucks in domestics he must have done the same in international also. ICC should have tested Ashwin to clear the fog about him

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Couch Cricketer View Post
    He tried copying Narine's action as he felt if Narine can bowl like that so could he. Once Narine got warned he stopped as well. I don't think Ashwin current action is bad Harbhajan on the other hand.
    Not saying anything about his current action but it does speak volumes of Ashwin's character that he intentionally went out and did something that he knew was wrong.

    Harbhajjan was just doing his job and the ICC let him get on with it so that's at least understandable.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainul View Post
    Really? If he chucks in domestics he must have done the same in international also. ICC should have tested Ashwin to clear the fog about him
    Definitely. They should have tested all the top spinners in the world.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Definitely. They should have tested all the top spinners in the world.
    Nonsense.

    They tested those who were "obviously chucking" to the naked eye.

    Ashwin chucked in "one game" to show that he could do it too. But when he did it, everybody became petulant and indignant that he is a chucker.

    However when Ajmal, Narine or Harbhajan were potentially doing it, they were "well that's just the way they bowl".

    What a load of rubbish.

    You either chuck or you don't.

    End of story.


    And I get so high.. And I just can't feel it....

  54. #54
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    He's surpassed Harbhajan easily who wasn't particularly great to begin with. Don't think he's surpassed Kumble. And he's still too much of a home track bully. Needs to prove himself abroad to truly be considered among the greats.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by KhalidRafi View Post
    He's surpassed Harbhajan easily who wasn't particularly great to begin with. Don't think he's surpassed Kumble. And he's still too much of a home track bully. Needs to prove himself abroad to truly be considered among the greats.
    Bhajjan was a very tricky bowler to face at home, as Ponting would testify. Ashwin probably is better though.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  56. #56
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    Second best spinner from Asia after in terms of impact.


    'There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold'

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Bassim View Post
    Nonsense.

    They tested those who were "obviously chucking" to the naked eye.

    Ashwin chucked in "one game" to show that he could do it too. But when he did it, everybody became petulant and indignant that he is a chucker.

    However when Ajmal, Narine or Harbhajan were potentially doing it, they were "well that's just the way they bowl".

    What a load of rubbish.

    You either chuck or you don't.

    End of story.
    Ashwin is a good Indian bowler so obviously he chucks.


    The ironic thing is his control has improved as his bowling arm has gotten dead straight now.

    Very good discussion on the changes in Ashwin's setup on the guardian here

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...mment-89332467
    @sensible-indian-fan

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JattMaula View Post
    That was variation that nearly destroyed his(Ashwin) career - The carrom ball.
    That's his leg break, not his carrom ball. He bowls it from front of his hand so it looks like his carrom ball.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil_cric View Post
    Second best spinner from Asia after in terms of impact.
    I can't rate him above Kumble considering batsmen now a days can't play spin like their predecessors.

    Bhajji = Ashwin < Kumble.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nombre View Post
    Ashwin is a good Indian bowler so obviously he chucks.


    The ironic thing is his control has improved as his bowling arm has gotten dead straight now.

    Very good discussion on the changes in Ashwin's setup on the guardian here

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...mment-89332467
    @sensible-indian-fan
    Thanks for sharing this.


    "Don't get attached to anything you're not willing to walk out in 30 seconds" Neil McCauley, Heat

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Ashwin has openly admitted to chucking in the past, in a domestic T20 league, IIRC.
    Tbh Ashwin openly admitted it, even during the Asia cup tournament, was it? He was quite obvious.

    But then anyone who followed it could have seen, his intent wasn't to cheat but just to highlight how chuckers like Ajmal, Senanyake etc. were getting away by flouting the rules.

    And voila, one by one they all disappeared from the scene.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Discuss.

    Asides from the wicket tally Ofcourse because wel he has played fewer matches but there is enough of a sample set now. .

    Bhajji says that it's due to the pitches Ashwin gets and if he and Kumble got same pitches they would have superior records
    It is a difficult question, but one thing is for sure. Ashwin + DRS > (Kumble + Harbhajan). DRS is is Deadly Review System for Ash. If India persist with DRS, Ashwin is gonna get a lot more wickets.


    "Don't get attached to anything you're not willing to walk out in 30 seconds" Neil McCauley, Heat

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cricfan4eva View Post
    Tbh Ashwin openly admitted it, even during the Asia cup tournament, was it? He was quite obvious.

    But then anyone who followed it could have seen, his intent wasn't to cheat but just to highlight how chuckers like Ajmal, Senanyake etc. were getting away by flouting the rules.

    And voila, one by one they all disappeared from the scene.
    Well he reverted back to his old action immediately after a couple of games. He was ordinary with that illegal action.
    For me he is the best spinner in the world. Add to that his batting. MVP.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Well he reverted back to his old action immediately after a couple of games. He was ordinary with that illegal action.
    For me he is the best spinner in the world. Add to that his batting. MVP.
    He was ordinary back then with/without illegal action tbh. His transformation in the last 2 years has been phenomenal and quite rightly he's the best spinner atm and its hard to see him get displaced from the top spot at least till India hit the road in 2018.

  65. #65
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    Forget about Bhajji or Kumble, Ashwin has the potential to come close to Murali in terms of all times wickets.
    The rate at which he is going, he can.

  66. #66
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    India all time test xi spinners

    first xi - Ashwin and Chandra.
    second xi - Bedi and Kumble.
    third xi - Gupte and Prasanna.
    fourth xi - Harbhajan and Jadeja.


    Not sure why Harbhajan is part of the discussion of best ever Indian spinner - any of the first 4 has a good shout. Ashwin's superior batting though already makes him India's most valuable spinner.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metron View Post
    Forget about Bhajji or Kumble, Ashwin has the potential to come close to Murali in terms of all times wickets.
    The rate at which he is going, he can.
    Doesnt have the Kohli'esque fitness to last 7-8 yrs more and is already 30. Murali had already played 75 tests and taken 420 wkts at the same age as Ashwin today.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...iew=cumulative

    Even 500 might be difficult from here on.

  68. #68
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    Yes easily if he stays fit.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metron View Post
    Forget about Bhajji or Kumble, Ashwin has the potential to come close to Murali in terms of all times wickets.
    The rate at which he is going, he can.
    No way is he going to take 800 wickets. That's way too much, age is not on his side.

  70. #70
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    Ashwin can take a 1000 wickets in Asia and it won't change anything. We all know he's very good in Asia, his challenge is to prove to everyone that he can have some sort of impact overseas. Ajmal, Swann, Herath and Shah have all done it. Even Jadeja has a five-for in South Africa so it's not like it's impossible. Unless he does so, I will rate him lower than all four of the aforementioned spinners.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Ashwin can take a 1000 wickets in Asia and it won't change anything. We all know he's very good in Asia, his challenge is to prove to everyone that he can have some sort of impact overseas. Ajmal, Swann, Herath and Shah have all done it. Even Jadeja has a five-for in South Africa so it's not like it's impossible. Unless he does so, I will rate him lower than all four of the aforementioned spinners.
    Yasir Shah averages 40+ in England and infinity in NZ (was later dropped). He is yet to play anywhere else abroad. Not sure how he has proven himself yet. Still a long way to go in my opinion.

    Ajmal averaged 112 in Australia, 59 in NZ. Even he hasn't really proven himself enough.

    Of course Ashwin has poor stats in Aus (avg 53 - less than 50% of Ajmal :-) ), decent in England (33, much better than Yasir Shah) and has done poorly in SA (similar to Shah in NZ) where he was unfortunate to miss out on the spinning track where Jadeja had a great outing. Long way to go for him as well.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Ashwin can take a 1000 wickets in Asia and it won't change anything. We all know he's very good in Asia, his challenge is to prove to everyone that he can have some sort of impact overseas. Ajmal, Swann, Herath and Shah have all done it. Even Jadeja has a five-for in South Africa so it's not like it's impossible. Unless he does so, I will rate him lower than all four of the aforementioned spinners.
    I dont get belittling of Indian spinners ust for the sake of it:
    Check up records of Herath and Yasir Shah.
    While Ajmal feasted on Zimbabwe and West Indies for a good away record, got pummeled in Aus New zealand.
    (avg of 85 there)

    All subcontinental spinners suck outside Asia. All your mentioned players have sucked more or less at the same level as Ashwin, if not more.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metron View Post
    I dont get belittling of Indian spinners ust for the sake of it:
    Check up records of Herath and Yasir Shah.
    While Ajmal feasted on Zimbabwe and West Indies for a good away record, got pummeled in Aus New zealand.
    (avg of 85 there)

    All subcontinental spinners suck outside Asia. All your mentioned players have sucked more or less at the same level as Ashwin, if not more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Statsman View Post
    Yasir Shah averages 40+ in England and infinity in NZ (was later dropped). He is yet to play anywhere else abroad. Not sure how he has proven himself yet. Still a long way to go in my opinion.

    Ajmal averaged 112 in Australia, 59 in NZ. Even he hasn't really proven himself enough.

    Of course Ashwin has poor stats in Aus (avg 53 - less than 50% of Ajmal :-) ), decent in England (33, much better than Yasir Shah) and has done poorly in SA (similar to Shah in NZ) where he was unfortunate to miss out on the spinning track where Jadeja had a great outing. Long way to go for him as well.
    Not talking about averages, I'm talking about impact. Yasir Shah won Pakistan two games in England, just this summer. Ajmal has a 10-fer in South Africa and a five-for in England. Herath and Swann have very good performances in South Africa and Herath has a five-for in Australia. All four of these guys have shown that they can thrive away from the subcontinent.

    In comparison, Ashwin has barely done anything of note in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa. He's been smashed, dropped and taken advantage of in these countries and he has a whole lot to prove.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Not talking about averages, I'm talking about impact. Yasir Shah won Pakistan two games in England, just this summer. Ajmal has a 10-fer in South Africa and a five-for in England. Herath and Swann have very good performances in South Africa and Herath has a five-for in Australia. All four of these guys have shown that they can thrive away from the subcontinent.

    In comparison, Ashwin has barely done anything of note in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa. He's been smashed, dropped and taken advantage of in these countries and he has a whole lot to prove.
    So winning a one game and get spanked all around the park in all other games makes you a far better bowler!
    By that logic Afridi is the greatest batsman /bowler of all times period!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metron View Post
    So winning a one game and get spanked all around the park in all other games makes you a far better bowler!
    By that logic Afridi is the greatest batsman /bowler of all times period!
    bilal is umar akmal player comparison thread when it comes to Indian players. It is a good sign.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metron View Post
    So winning a one game and get spanked all around the park in all other games makes you a far better bowler!
    By that logic Afridi is the greatest batsman /bowler of all times period!
    Well, Afridi certainly was a great compared to a batsman or bowler who never won his team any games and instead, was a huge liability every time he came out to bat/bowl.

    Similarly, those four are comfortably ahead of Ashwin as of now.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Well, Afridi certainly was a great compared to a batsman or bowler who never won his team any games and instead, was a huge liability every time he came out to bat/bowl.
    Just curious who are these other batsmen and bowlers in comparison to Afridi ?

  78. #78
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    I think he is better batsmen than Kumble and will end up as good as kumble in test cricket as well.

    ATG in tests IMO.

  79. #79
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    Ashwin has improved leaps and bounds as a spinner. I can even see him being successful in Australia if he bowls with this amount of control and discipline. Still a lot of cricket to be played in this series but for my money, he has already produced a match-winning performance in this test match.

  80. #80
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    He may never succeed in Australia, and that says more about Aussie tracks than Ashwin in my opinion.


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