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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    In the contemporary era, it is not possible to be a universal ATG without excelling in LOIs. Dravid was a very good ODI batsman of his time unlike Younis, while ODIs didn't have much significance during Gavaskar's era. Still, a lot of people are actually misinformed about his ODI performances, but you can't blame them because they don't know much about his ODI career apart from that infamous 36* in 60 overs.

    Gayle was actually a fantastic Test opener before he became a T20 specialist a few years back, while Dhoni is very underrated in Tests. Sure he was better in ODIs, but he is still the best Test WK batsman from Asia considering the fact that Sangakkara didn't keep in Tests for more than half of his career.

    As far as Bevan is concerned, his status would certainly have been higher if he was good in Tests. As things stand, he is not regarded as a universal ATG but only a great ODI player.
    Dravid was just okay in ODI's. Not bad but not great either.

    Apart from a few great innings - he was bang average IMO. Certainly not in the class of Kohli, Sachin, Ganguly in ODI's

  2. #82
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    I honestly think that even the PAK XI from CT '13 can give a team of @Rayyman's ATGs a tough time.


    Hai yeh Josh-e-Junoon, hai yeh apna yaqeen, ke jo tum mein hai dum, woh kisi mein nahin!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Square Drive View Post
    If an average of 47 in 2016 which included series in South Africa, Australia, and India, followed by an average of 58 so far in 2017 equates to a lean patch, then I hope every single Pakistani batsman starts going through a lean patch ASAP.

    In ODIs he hasn't been at his best but even then last year he managed to average 40+ which again included tough tours to Australia and India.

    This year he hasn't been the best in ODIs but he has been getting starts, just needs to convert now.
    Boosted by a strong Zimbabwe series.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  4. #84
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    To put Smith and Kohli's name In the same category is a crime In itself.

    Kohli is probably half the batsman and the player Smith is.

    Smith is Mr Big occasion where as Kohli is good for ODI 300+ tracks.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Dravid was just okay in ODI's. Not bad but not great either.

    Apart from a few great innings - he was bang average IMO. Certainly not in the class of Kohli, Sachin, Ganguly in ODI's
    He was nowhere near their caliber, but he is underrated in ODIs because people judge him through modern standards. Yes, he wouldn't have been good in this era, but he was more than just okay for his era and has played some brilliant innings at number 3.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Square Drive View Post
    Well there are quite a few ATGs we are watching live these days.

    Steve Smith
    Virat Kohli
    Joe Root

    Dale Steyn

    ^ These four are not even debatable at this point and I'm sure almost everyone agrees that these guys will go down as ATGs.

    Who else would you guys label as ATGs from the current lot?

    Would like to see what posters think.
    Why are those 3 not debatable?

    Steyn is at the end of his career but I'm glad I witnessed the Steyn from last the last decade, genuinely quick, could swing the ball and at his best, a good bowler across formats (not as good as Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Donald and co but still).

    The names that should be included and sadly are heading towards the end are: Amla, AB and Khan.

  7. #87
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    Smith is potentially Australia's best test bat since the don. Sure he doesn't have to play the quality of batting like ponting, but him averaging 10 points above the other top test bats over his generation surely make up for it. I've been waiting for this series to finally bring him down to earth, but it seems he just went a notch better!!

    It's no longer the FAB4 in tests anymore! Smudge had left everyone behind in the dust ..

    But the ATG tag from now on will require NO1 in either the limited over formats or tests and top 3 in the other., so Smith's ATG status isn't decided yet. Neither has Kohlis.. He needs further improvement in tests as it is obvious .. QDK is a potential contender, but it still is early days

  8. #88
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    AB.

    10-15 years from now, he's going to be remembered the same way people remember Viv, Sachin and Lara etc.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Sorry but these are not ATG players - maybe Stokes has a chance and Shakib if they hit a purple patch but no chance for the others.

    QDK, Warner (ODI's), Babar, Jos Butler (ODI's), Faf Du Plessis are potential ATG's IMO other than the Big 4.
    LOL. You need to learn what ATG means before making such dubious claims.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    LOL. You need to learn what ATG means before making such dubious claims.
    Faf Du Plessis is a potential ATG.

    Averages 50+ in Tests and is SAF best test batsman after Amla and averages 40+ in ODI's. He is mentally strong and not a choker like ABD.

    One of the best batsman around.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    Faf Du Plessis is a potential ATG.

    Averages 50+ in Tests and is SAF best test batsman after Amla and averages 40+ in ODI's. He is mentally strong and not a choker like ABD.

    One of the best batsman around.
    He is 32 and will play 5-6 more years max. No way is he a potential ATG.

    Edit: Just letting you know, he averages 44 in Tests.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    He is 32 and will play 5-6 more years max. No way is he a potential ATG.

    Edit: Just letting you know, he averages 44 in Tests.
    Oh damn - his average must have fallen after the India series - was averaging 50+ until about a year go if I am not mistaken.

    Still a very good batsman and a potential great for SAF.

  13. #93
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    People are distributing ATG tags as if they are goody bags that guests get at the end of a wedding


    Demons run when a good man goes to war
    GO NAWAZ GO!

  14. #94
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    Moeen Ali

    Chris Woakes

    Azhar Ali

    Amir

    Rabada

    Shah

  15. #95
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    If we are to award ATG tag on the basis of performances in both ODI's and Tests then the most likely contender is to be Smith followed by Root and Kohli.

    Solely for Tests: Smith will be an ATG soon and Cook, Younis and Anderson are very close too. Cook will play in for another 5-6 years if not more and I am certain he will be an ATG. Anderson already has ATG stats but his performances outside of England aren't awesome.

    Potential ATG for Tests would be Azhar Ali, VK and KW but it is not guaranteed. I want to include Ashwin too but he's been extremely innocuous outside of India. He tries very hard and is a good bowler but unfortunately doesn't look anywhere close to be an ATG.

    For ODI's: If I am to be brutally honest, Kohli is already one. He is a beast and his centuries and runs are the proof. Rohit Sharma will also end up as an ATG. If Dhoni and Yuvi keep playing the same way and average 50+ for another 5 years - they will be ATG's too.

    Potential ATG's for ODI's are:

    - Smith.
    - Starc.
    - Buttler.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    How big should it be then?
    People are mixing ATGs with just good players. Someone put Sarfraz, he's never going to be an ATG, but he is a good player.


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Further comments on my ATG system......

    1. Number of runs/wickets in the Top Five for your role (Opener, middle-order batsman, keeper, spinner, pace bowler) in history up to the time you play. Obviously this ensures that a cricketer is judged by the standards applicable up to the present day at any given time.

    2. Average as a batsman/bowler/keeper in the Top Five in your role in modern history up to the time you play. (Excluding the 19th and early 20th century, whose averages are impossible to match, and with a minimum qualification of 100 wickets for fairness to rule out the likes of Frank Tyson, which proves that I listen to @Tusker ).

    3. Assignment of ATG status is made at the time the player plays. So Sir Richard Hadlee retired with the wickets world record, so satisfies the requirements for number of wickets taken.

    I would add that for players like Shane Warne or Kapil Dev, whose average isn't good enough to qualify, I probably need to add a special exemption to include people who retire with the world record for most runs/wickets but at an inferior average.

    So by my reckoning, you have the following ATGs:

    Openers:
    Gavaskar, Boycott, Greenidge, Kirsten, Hutton

    Middle Order batsmen:
    Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Kallis

    Spinners:
    Murali, Warne, Laker, O'Reilly

    Quicks:
    Trueman, Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose

    Overall that looks like a really sensitive system.
    sorry but you have misunderstood my posts ... the single biggest point I keep discussing with you is separation of ERA's .... at the bare minimum we should never mix ERAs before the 70s with those that played after the 70s ( to be picky it would be from the 90s but 70s would be ok ) . Simple reasons being Professional ERA and the standards.

    Now you can say that there were plenty of players who were just as good as the modern pros if not better but the reality is that there is no tangible evidence to prove this and we have both discussed plenty of players.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  18. #98
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    Current ATGs are Steyn, Devilliers, and Kohli only.

    Smith, Starc, Hazlewood, and QDK have a very high chance of becoming ATG.

    Root and Williamson have a long way to go. They both lack impact.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Further comments on my ATG system......

    1. Number of runs/wickets in the Top Five for your role (Opener, middle-order batsman, keeper, spinner, pace bowler) in history up to the time you play. Obviously this ensures that a cricketer is judged by the standards applicable up to the present day at any given time.

    2. Average as a batsman/bowler/keeper in the Top Five in your role in modern history up to the time you play. (Excluding the 19th and early 20th century, whose averages are impossible to match, and with a minimum qualification of 100 wickets for fairness to rule out the likes of Frank Tyson, which proves that I listen to @Tusker ).

    3. Assignment of ATG status is made at the time the player plays. So Sir Richard Hadlee retired with the wickets world record, so satisfies the requirements for number of wickets taken.

    I would add that for players like Shane Warne or Kapil Dev, whose average isn't good enough to qualify, I probably need to add a special exemption to include people who retire with the world record for most runs/wickets but at an inferior average.

    So by my reckoning, you have the following ATGs:

    Openers:
    Gavaskar, Boycott, Greenidge, Kirsten, Hutton

    Middle Order batsmen:
    Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Kallis

    Spinners:
    Murali, Warne, Laker, O'Reilly

    Quicks:
    Trueman, Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose

    Overall that looks like a really sensitive system.

    While don't fully agree with it this is definitely an interesting way to look at it


    #MPGA

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Current ATGs are Steyn, Devilliers, and Kohli only.

    Smith, Starc, Hazlewood, and QDK have a very high chance of becoming ATG.

    Root and Williamson have a long way to go.They both lack impact.
    Root just won a series in WI with his batting,current WI team may be not great but those conditions were really tough and he's by far the best batter in the whole series

    Williamson's century in the first test against SA was vital so was his run a ball match winning century against bangladesh

    They both has had very good impact in their team sucess every now and then, the problem is no one is hear to hype them like some specific players

  21. #101
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    Anyone else saddened by the lack of bowling ATG's lately? Surely a lot of this can be put down to conditions, with everything aiding the batsmen from powerplays, to bigger bats and flat tracks prepared to make tests last for 5 days. In the meantime guys like Faff Du Plessis are being touted as ATG's

    Cricket is dying a slow death, strangled by money.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Anyone else saddened by the lack of bowling ATG's lately? Surely a lot of this can be put down to conditions, with everything aiding the batsmen from powerplays, to bigger bats and flat tracks prepared to make tests last for 5 days. In the meantime guys like Faff Du Plessis are being touted as ATG's

    Cricket is dying a slow death, strangled by money.
    No one touts Faf as an ATG

    Also Hazelwood, Rabada are potential ATGs

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Anyone else saddened by the lack of bowling ATG's lately? Surely a lot of this can be put down to conditions, with everything aiding the batsmen from powerplays, to bigger bats and flat tracks prepared to make tests last for 5 days. In the meantime guys like Faff Du Plessis are being touted as ATG's

    Cricket is dying a slow death, strangled by money.
    you're right, but still there are great (or soon to be great or a tier below them) bowlers active right now, Steyn, Anderson, Broad, Starc, Hazlewood, Boult, Ashwin, Jadeja, Herath, Yasir, Imran Tahir etc.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitthestump View Post
    Anyone else saddened by the lack of bowling ATG's lately? Surely a lot of this can be put down to conditions, with everything aiding the batsmen from powerplays, to bigger bats and flat tracks prepared to make tests last for 5 days. In the meantime guys like Faff Du Plessis are being touted as ATG's

    Cricket is dying a slow death, strangled by money.
    ATGs in the past performed despite the conditions. The conditions shouldn't be made easier for bowling just so we can term more players as artificial ATGs.

  25. #105
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    Smith and Root are on their way to Alma's level. Maintaining that form over long stretches is going to be a monumental task as Amla would attest.
    Williamson needs to get a move on though it's like he's stagnated since the retirement of McCullum.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protea Fan View Post
    Root just won a series in WI with his batting,current WI team may be not great but those conditions were really tough and he's by far the best batter in the whole series

    Williamson's century in the first test against SA was vital so was his run a ball match winning century against bangladesh

    They both has had very good impact in their team sucess every now and then, the problem is no one is hear to hype them like some specific players
    Yep. There is no one to hype them especially Williamson. 100 not out vs SA 4th innings to draw the match. 242 against SL to come from behind and win the match. His recent run a ball 100 against BD to win the match. The 130 in 1st test against SA otherwise they would have been 2-0 down most probably. Some innings just top of my head. How does these innings lacked impact? Add to it Kane plays in a really weak batting side and sometimes no one to support. ...

    And btw which test innings of impact did Kohli play to become an ATG already ? The 4th innings 100 against Aus when the series was already lost and without any series pressure.. The argument given is pitch was turning and Lyon was good but Kohli plays on turning pitches vs even better attacks in India already. It wasn't like he did something out of the blue to make that innings rated so high. They even lost the match.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protea Fan View Post
    Root just won a series in WI with his batting,current WI team may be not great but those conditions were really tough and he's by far the best batter in the whole series

    Williamson's century in the first test against SA was vital so was his run a ball match winning century against bangladesh

    They both has had very good impact in their team sucess every now and then, the problem is no one is hear to hype them like some specific players
    Beating WI is not an accomplishment specially when England is ranked #5 and WI is ranked #9.

    Root has not played a single inning in Asia like Smith has played in this recent Indian series. Root scores runs but he has absolutely zero impact. Kane is better in tests but in ODIs, NZ is all about Guptill.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Beating WI is not an accomplishment specially when England is ranked #5 and WI is ranked #9.

    Root has not played a single inning in Asia like Smith has played in this recent Indian series. Root scores runs but he has absolutely zero impact. Kane is better in tests but in ODIs, NZ is all about Guptill.
    Didn't Root scored a match winning 100 in 3rd test vs SA in SA and won the series for his team?

  29. #109
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    Soumya Sarkar, he is Deshi Haydos

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarfiBabarHaris View Post
    Yep. There is no one to hype them especially Williamson. 100 not out vs SA 4th innings to draw the match. 242 against SL to come from behind and win the match. His recent run a ball 100 against BD to win the match. The 130 in 1st test against SA otherwise they would have been 2-0 down most probably. Some innings just top of my head. How does these innings lacked impact? Add to it Kane plays in a really weak batting side and sometimes no one to support. ...

    And btw which test innings of impact did Kohli play to become an ATG already ? The 4th innings 100 against Aus when the series was already lost and without any series pressure.. The argument given is pitch was turning and Lyon was good but Kohli plays on turning pitches vs even better attacks in India already. It wasn't like he did something out of the blue to make that innings rated so high. They even lost the match.
    Because Williamson hasn't played well in the last 16 months.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    Because Williamson hasn't played well in the last 16 months.
    Yet he avg's 60 in last 1.5 years strange

  32. #112
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    Considering players who are 30+ we have some certain potential greats:

    De Villiers
    Cook in tests
    Shakib
    Gayle(atleast for T20s)
    Angelo Mathews
    Ross Taylor
    Hashim Amla
    Herath
    YK in tests

    Am I missing anyone?

    ATGs? I dont think any of these folks are ATG by any means, although De villiers is on his way to become an ATG in all formats. Amla, Shakib could possibly too if they maintain their performancs.

    OP is using the title "aTG" too liberally

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Beating WI is not an accomplishment specially when England is ranked #5 and WI is ranked #9.

    Root has not played a single inning in Asia like Smith has played in this recent Indian series. Root scores runs but he has absolutely zero impact. Kane is better in tests but in ODIs, NZ is all about Guptill.
    I agree smith is better but his perfo's are not the benchmark to decide other players greatness

    Aus are performing all together in diff league as compared to the eng side toured india recently

    Unfortunately cricket is a team game......Truth is that Root scored runs almost everywhere and many of his inningses had some impact

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Executioner View Post
    Considering players who are 30+ we have some certain potential greats:

    De Villiers
    Cook in tests
    Shakib
    Gayle(atleast for T20s)
    Angelo Mathews
    Ross Taylor
    Hashim Amla
    Herath
    YK in tests

    Am I missing anyone?

    ATGs? I dont think any of these folks are ATG by any means, although De villiers is on his way to become an ATG in all formats. Amla, Shakib could possibly too if they maintain their performancs.

    OP is using the title "aTG" too liberally
    Imo ABD is the only bonafide great active player now along with Steyn and Kohli in ODI's

    Amla and Yonis are compelling though not complete but yea can be can call them whatever according to certain perspectives

    Mathews is quality and he's just 29 so i guess some more cricket left in him,He can be a prospect as an all rounder though in test cricket his bowling is non existent

    Taylor is not even great let alone ATG

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protea Fan View Post
    Imo ABD is the only bonafide great active player now along with Steyn and Kohli in ODI's

    Amla and Yonis are compelling though not complete but yea can be can call them whatever according to certain perspectives

    Mathews is quality and he's just 29 so i guess some more cricket left in him,He can be a prospect as an all rounder though in test cricket his bowling is non existent

    Taylor is not even great let alone ATG
    I meant potential greats of the game. Doesn't necessarily mean they will reach their.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Executioner View Post
    Considering players who are 30+ we have some certain potential greats:

    De Villiers
    Cook in tests
    Shakib
    Gayle(atleast for T20s)
    Angelo Mathews
    Ross Taylor
    Hashim Amla
    Herath
    YK in tests

    Am I missing anyone?

    ATGs? I dont think any of these folks are ATG by any means, although De villiers is on his way to become an ATG in all formats. Amla, Shakib could possibly too if they maintain their performancs.

    OP is using the title "aTG" too liberally
    obviously you are missing the bangladeshi test team, you should always include them in your potential ATG line ups because they will soon reach heights of greatness probably beat Aus in Aus as well. And Mustafizur will break Muralitharan's record of most wickets, Shakib will be the best ever all rounder after Imran Khan and Musaddaik will go on to break Tendulkar record of most runs.
    Overall Bangladeshi team will reach number 1 rank in test cricket very soon.

  37. #117
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    Some more potential ATGs: Rohit Sharma, Mohammad Hafeez, Junaid Khan, Imad Wasim, Glenn Maxwell, Keshav Maharaj, Ravindra Jadeja, "Jinks", Haseeb Hameed, Darren Sammy and Rafatullah Momand.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Some more potential ATGs: Rohit Sharma, Mohammad Hafeez, Junaid Khan, Imad Wasim, Glenn Maxwell, Keshav Maharaj, Ravindra Jadeja, "Jinks", Haseeb Hameed, Darren Sammy and Rafatullah Momand.
    It's such a wierd mixture that it's hard to tell where the sarcasm starts and ends .

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWicket View Post
    It's such a wierd mixture that it's hard to tell where the sarcasm starts and ends .
    Bhai, this thread has been made in celebration of Australia embarrassing India in India. Everyone is getting the ATG candy-bags and we should try to name every single active player who has played even a single international game before the conclusion of the series next week. Don't want anyone to feel left out.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

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