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  1. #1
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    Overseas spinners performances : India vs UAE

    Below is a summary of the performances of various overseas spinners in India and UAE.

    I have included all overseas spinners who bowled in both countries and it is interesting to see how they have performed in both countries and how the numbers stack against each other

    In the last row I have also included performances of ALL Overseas spinners in the countries

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    Note: The figures are post 2013. That is a large enough sample set and interestingly neither side has lost a single series at their home/neutral venue since then.

    It seems generally speaking overseas spinners do better in India than UAE not only in terms of averages but also at the rates at which they take wickets.

    What are your thoughts and conclusions from this data and what you have seen in the last 4 years.


    #MPGA

  2. #2
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    I want to see Yasir Shah and Ajmal's stats in UAE vs Ashwin and Jadeja in India.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  3. #3
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    O Keefes and Lyons figures include the phainty in this current test match

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    I want to see Yasir Shah and Ajmal's stats in UAE vs Ashwin and Jadeja in India.
    That doesn't tell us anything

    Performances of same or similar bowlera in both countries Infact do give indication of which country provides more conducive pitches for spinners and to some extent which home team has better batsmen as far as negotiating spin is concerned

  5. #5
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    Both team have been humiliated by average spinners. Neither team set of fans should chest thump about there spin playing abilities.

    That said I think both teams batsmen are ahead of other teams batsmen in the world when it comes to playing spin.

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    Well good stats but you really don't need them when the conclusion is well known.

    It's easier to bowl in India compared to UAE due to pitches.

    It's harder to bat in India compared to UAE due to pitches.

    When India gave a flat track, Lyon and O Keefe performed the way they did in UAE.


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  7. #7
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    Bishoo seems to be missing.. You didn't included WI.

  8. #8
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    If anything this proves that Pujara is on track to be the greatest batsman in Asia.

    Performed in Asian seamers, flatties, rank turners, good turners, mild turners, under pressure, first innings, last innings...facing good spinners, pacers, swing bowlers....you name it and he has done it.


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  9. #9
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    For eg let's say Pakistani spinner A averages 30 in UAE and Indian spinner B averages 25 in India.

    Now just lazy reading of stats would prolly result in an uninformed person saying B is better than A due to stats.

    However here you also have to notice that wickets are generally hard to come by in UAE anyway and it's no coincidence that on average the same bowlers average 10 more on UAE than they do in India.

    So just a direct comparison of averages doesn't give a clear picture as taking wickets doesn't require the same skill level in both countries

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Bishoo seems to be missing.. You didn't included WI.
    My bad. I assumed WI didn't tour India in that time frame so removed him but it seems they did

    In any case. The LAST ROW of averages of all spinners includes Bishoo's figures as wel. He averages 27 or in his 20s in UAE.
    Last edited by Slog; 19th March 2017 at 16:33.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Well good stats but you really don't need them when the conclusion is well known.

    It's easier to bowl in India compared to UAE due to pitches.

    It's harder to bat in India compared to UAE due to pitches.

    When India gave a flat track, Lyon and O Keefe performed the way they did in UAE.
    I don't think it is well known going by many comments on the forum in the past week

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    My bad. I assumed WI didn't tour India in that time frame so removed him but it seems they did

    In any case. The LAST ROW of averages of all spinners includes Bishoo's figures as wel. He averages 27 in UAE
    Alright..No issues then.I just though he should be there when you have names like Elgar there.

    Anyways, we dont need these stats to come to any conclusions. Its easier for spinners in India than in UAE no doubt.

    Still a very good job. Let's see what else can we conclude from these numbers.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I don't think it is well known going by many comments on the forum in the past week
    Also I was just interested to see whether the actual numbers hold

    In India some matches are where wickets fall in heaps but then there are a lot of 500+ scores innings as well which don't get as much attention.

    So there was a chance that the numbers may tell a different story.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I don't think it is well known going by many comments on the forum in the past week
    Fair enough then.

    Averages of spinners in UAE can't be equated to that in India.

    In fact, even SL have produced some real pro spin tracks the last 4-5 years but they go under the radar. SL curators know how to prepare sporting tracks (mixed in with big turners) where ball turns consistently.


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    I think someone like Jaddu with the way he is bowling will average sub 25 even in UAE.

    Will keep it tight when wicket does nothing and then wreak havoc when it does (which it does post day 3 in UAE).

    Scoreboard pressure is a big aspect too. Bangladesh in India got an ultra patta and our spinners averaged 24 and 28 in them.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 19th March 2017 at 16:42.


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  16. #16
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    UAE Khan scores runs on flat tracks of the UAE.

    Yasir Shah takes wickets only on spinning tracks of the UAE, otherwise, he is mediocre.

    This is what most people believe here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    I think someone like Jaddu with the way he is bowling will average sub 25 even in UAE.

    Will keep it tight when wicket does nothing and then wreak havoc when it does (which it does post day 3 in UAE).

    Scoreboard pressure is a big aspect too. Bangladesh got an ultra patta and our spinners averaged 24 and 28 in them.
    In fact I think this current test match pitch and esp some of the England series pitches were somewhat close to UAE

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    UAE Khan scores runs on flat tracks of the UAE.

    Yasir Shah takes wickets only on spinning tracks of the UAE, otherwise, he is mediocre.

    This is what most people believe here.
    Someone reconcile this

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    In fact I think this current test match pitch and esp some of the England series pitches were somewhat close to UAE
    I think Indian spinners (in form) will average 23-25 in UAE as opposed to 18-20 in India.

    Hazlewood averages great in some of the flattest Aussie tracks but couldn't replicate it in Asia. There are a lot of factors in play.

    For example, Ashwin in ODIs sucks big time against Aus in Aus. But against other teams (non minnows), he averages 20 in Aus. We can't play other test teams in Aus so I am using ODI example.

    Lots of factors in play.

    Murali would have averaged just fine if he played in Aus against other teams.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 19th March 2017 at 16:46.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    I think Indian spinners (in form) will average 23-25 in UAE as opposed to 18-20 in India.

    Hazlewood averages great in some of the flattest Aussie tracks but couldn't replicate it in Asia. There are a lot of factors in play.

    For example, Ashwin in ODIs sucks big time against Aus in Aus. But against other teams (non minnows), he averages 20 in Aus. We can't play other teams in Aus so I am using ODI example.

    Lots of factors in play.
    Hazelwood has been ok this tour honestly

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    We've been terrible against spin this decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Hazelwood has been ok this tour honestly
    Yes, he has been very good but its not like "if he can average 25 in Aussie pattas, imagine what he could in other countries".

    Well he averages the best in Aus. Averaged 34 in NZ inspite of getting some green day 1 tracks to bowl on. Averages 25 in England which is good. Averages well in Asia too.

    Johnson and Starc numbers would be messy though.

    Cricket ain't a linear game.


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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    UAE Khan scores runs on flat tracks of the UAE.

    Yasir Shah takes wickets only on spinning tracks of the UAE, otherwise, he is mediocre.

    This is what most people believe here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Someone reconcile this
    Actually, it is the logic that is used to to downplay both Kohli and Ashwin. Indian pitches go from minefield to flat depending on whether Ashwin bowls or Kohli bats.

    As far as Younis and Yasir are concerned, the former has been a superb batsman in Asia and although his overseas record is good, he has never been able to score against lateral movement. Almost all of his big knocks overseas have come on flat wickets. Yes it is true for Kohli as well so far, but he is only half way through his career unlike Younis, who had the chance to cement himself an ATG but failed in 14 out of 17 innings outside Asia last year, and cemented himself as UAE Khan. If Kohli doesn't score against lateral movement, he too will not finish as a Test ATG.

    Yasir did well in England on two helpful pitches, but he really got exposed in Australia. The difference between him and Ashwin is that he has no clue when the batsmen attack him; he cannot bowl dry and his ER was a major reason why we got blanked. On the contrary, Ashwin was economical in Australia and it played a significant part in India drawing 2 matches in Australia last time around. In every other country where both have played, Ashwin has outdone Yasir. Two matches in England aren't enough for Yasir to surpass Ashwin.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Actually, it is the logic that is used to to downplay both Kohli and Ashwin. Indian pitches go from minefield to flat depending on whether Ashwin bowls or Kohli bats.

    As far as Younis and Yasir are concerned, the former has been a superb batsman in Asia and although his overseas record is good, he has never been able to score against lateral movement. Almost all of his big knocks overseas have come on flat wickets. Yes it is true for Kohli as well so far, but he is only half way through his career unlike Younis, who had the chance to cement himself an ATG but failed in 14 out of 17 innings outside Asia last year, and cemented himself as UAE Khan. If Kohli doesn't score against lateral movement, he too will not finish as a Test ATG.

    Yasir did well in England on two helpful pitches, but he really got exposed in Australia. The difference between him and Ashwin is that he has no clue when the batsmen attack him; he cannot bowl dry and his ER was a major reason why we got blanked. On the contrary, Ashwin was economical in Australia and it played a significant part in India drawing 2 matches in Australia last time around. In every other country where both have played, Ashwin has outdone Yasir. Two matches in England aren't enough for Yasir to surpass Ashwin.
    Younis Khan knocks last year you can say came on tracks with little lateral movement but that certainly isn't true overall. He has scored in NZ when the ball was doing tricks as well as innings in England in 2006.

    The point is that you are judging a 40 year old Younis Khan and extrapolating that to his whole career. Mind you he still is racking up the runs even if inconsistently

    The simple fact is that Younis Khan has scored runs everywhere and is one of the very few to have scored a century in every test playing nation. There is nothing left to prove for him and he has already been anointed an ATG by most experts and cricketers and debating that here won't change that.

    The only thing up for discussion is where does he rank among the ATGs and in that aspect id definitely put him below the Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Sanga etc tier.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Younis Khan knocks last year you can say came on tracks with little lateral movement but that certainly isn't true overall. He has scored in NZ when the ball was doing tricks as well as innings in England in 2006.

    The point is that you are judging a 40 year old Younis Khan and extrapolating that to his whole career. Mind you he still is racking up the runs even if inconsistently

    The simple fact is that Younis Khan has scored runs everywhere and is one of the very few to have scored a century in every test playing nation. There is nothing left to prove for him and he has already been anointed an ATG by most experts and cricketers and debating that here won't change that.

    The only thing up for discussion is where does he rank among the ATGs and in that aspect id definitely put him below the Ponting, Lara, Sachin, Sanga etc tier.
    That one innings in 2006 at Old Trafford came on a bouncy pitch. It didn't have lateral movement. He has done well in NZ but so has Kohli, but that didn't override his failure in England in 2014. Performing in NZ has less significance than performing in Australia, England and SA. Younis batted like a clown in NZ few months back with an average of 4, but that is highlighted less than his failures in England and Australia, and would have been forgotten completely had he turned up in Australia when the series was still alive.

    As far him being an ATG, that is only limited to Pakistan. He is not considered an ATG universally, but only a Pakistani legend. He has been overshadowed by the current big four and in the previous generation players, he had a lesser stature than the likes of Amla, Sangakkara, Clarke, de Villiers and Pietersen. Pakistan has only produced one ATG batsman so far and that's Miandad. Perhaps his poor ODI career has to do something with it, but whatever it is, is not considered an ATG which is fair. He really isn't.

  26. #26
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    The sample size is extremely small for anyone to compare Yasir and Ashwin in the countries outside Asia where both of them have played.

    In Asia, Ashwin averages 22 and Yasir averages 24. There is a difference of just 2 points but one must consider the fact that Indian pitches are much more spinner friendly than the UAE's.

    Younis has played most of his overseas games in his twilight year. Cannot compare him with Kohli who is doing it in his peak years. Also, the nature of wickets in Australia were completely different when Younis played in Australia in 2005 compared to what they served to Kohli in 2014. All being said, there is no comparison between Kohli and Younis. Kohli might end up as the GOAT batsman in all formats combined. Younis' ceiling has always been just a test ATG.

    Ashwin is a different story. When someone has taken 203 of his 270 wickets in his home grounds, they need to do more before being rated that high.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That one innings in 2006 at Old Trafford came on a bouncy pitch. It didn't have lateral movement. He has done well in NZ but so has Kohli, but that didn't override his failure in England in 2014. Performing in NZ has less significance than performing in Australia, England and SA. Younis batted like a clown in NZ few months back with an average of 4, but that is highlighted less than his failures in England and Australia, and would have been forgotten completely had he turned up in Australia when the series was still alive.

    As far him being an ATG, that is only limited to Pakistan. He is not considered an ATG universally, but only a Pakistani legend. He has been overshadowed by the current big four and in the previous generation players, he had a lesser stature than the likes of Amla, Sangakkara, Clarke, de Villiers and Pietersen. Pakistan has only produced one ATG batsman so far and that's Miandad. Perhaps his poor ODI career has to do something with it, but whatever it is, is not considered an ATG which is fair. He really isn't.
    By your logic, Younis has to prove himself on bouncy, rank-turners, and seaming wickets to be considered an ATG or a top test batsman. However, all of that is not required for others like Clarke, Cook, etc.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    That one innings in 2006 at Old Trafford came on a bouncy pitch. It didn't have lateral movement. He has done well in NZ but so has Kohli, but that didn't override his failure in England in 2014. Performing in NZ has less significance than performing in Australia, England and SA. Younis batted like a clown in NZ few months back with an average of 4, but that is highlighted less than his failures in England and Australia, and would have been forgotten completely had he turned up in Australia when the series was still alive.

    As far him being an ATG, that is only limited to Pakistan. He is not considered an ATG universally, but only a Pakistani legend. He has been overshadowed by the current big four and in the previous generation players, he had a lesser stature than the likes of Amla, Sangakkara, Clarke, de Villiers and Pietersen. Pakistan has only produced one ATG batsman so far and that's Miandad. Perhaps his poor ODI career has to do something with it, but whatever it is, is not considered an ATG which is fair. He really isn't.
    No the reason Younis khans failure in NZ isn't highlighted is because it's a case of 'been there done that' for him. He has already done well there multiple times and there's nothing much to prove therelike Cook doesn't have much left to prove in Asia regardless of how badly he does there here onwards

    However Kohli looking like a clown in England is highlighted because he hasn't proven himself in those conditions yet and the series he played there he looked worse than a tailender at times.

    And yes by Kohlis own admission runs in England, Australia and South Africa are important for an Asian batsman to be considered world class and Kohli failed in his England outing. So that's another reason why failures in England count for more and are highlighted more and Younis has already proven himsef in England. Kohli hasn't. He will likely rectify that in the future but till then facts are facts

  29. #29
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    Where is Bishoo?

  30. #30
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    Pakistani batsmen at home are better than Indians at home, That could be another reason. Nice post btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Where is Bishoo?
    His stats are accounted for in the averages of all spinners. I made a mistake as I forgot to put wi spinners individually but Bishoo averages 27. Roston chase has a poor average

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