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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arham_PakFan View Post
    Tests against SA have only been played after 1992.Thats 25 years.And thats 5 series too.
    Ok,over 45 years experience but couldn't win vs them!!!


    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    They had a decent world cup in AUS though and reached the QF, I just seem them as a decent ODI unit in general or else I'd have more confidence about us qualifying for the WC automatically. They're in the CT ahead of WI to, Pak have had a really bad run in ODI's in general and we're ranked below them as it stands if we call them really bad then what does that make our team; we have to give the little jobber some respek which has been earned. Both teams at their best pak and bd are capable of winning in any conditions although the bd unit is more stable but we've made some pivotal decisions in our little rebuilding phase and hopefully it works out for the best
    Yea man as things stand our ODI team is abysmal. However, I would still back Pak to win an ODI series vs Bangladesh if it was taking place anywhere outside Bangladesh. Anyway - I'm going off topic here.

    As things stand - yes, I agree - Bangladesh are doing well and they had a decent WC. However, I think we can both agree that as far as this thread is concerned yes AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME they are still minnows. They look promising but there is still significant improvement needed if they wanna shake that tag off - especially in Test & T20 cricket.

    Also - just to clarify - a correction to my previous posts. I just realised that I wasn't using Statsguru correctly. Bangladesh have won more away games compared to whats indicated above. In total they have won 6 away games since the start of 2015. 4 games against associate teams (Afg, Scot, Neth & Oman), an ODI VS Eng and a Test VS SL. They do however still have a the 3rd worst W/L ratio in away games during this period (after UAE & Nepal)
    Last edited by TalhaSyed; 22nd March 2017 at 14:53.

  3. #83
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    As Bangladesh improves, does the other team stay stagnant? Do they not unearth Rabada, Braithwaite, Raval, Sarjeels, Mendis's? It is not that easy to catch up overnight.

    Everything has a process and it takes time. If you are sincere you will see success. The gap was so big it took longer than what everyone thought because of SL and ZIm's initial success. They already had a cricketing structure before the test status was given. We didn't. Then the structure that was created was a picnic outing, one city based for minimum of 7 years. Little by little, one brick at a time, it grew. We are thankful to ICC, and ALL of her members for the continuing support at the DARKEST of times. Now we can say we are competing. The gap has narrowed considerably. We can hold our grounds at home. Still some ways to go be competitive in overseas trips and I know that.

    Initially Minnow tag was for the associates. So if someone says Minnows it refers to the associates or level of associates. We have graduated from that ranks now. That is why Bangladeshis feel cheated when someone labels us with that. We feel disrespected and that is why it is hurtful. If your intent is to hurt us keep doing it. It works.

    So I give you a name, soon you will be a fan of. Azmir Ahmed. He may be the one to take that tag off once for all in near future. Have a great day and thank you for reading the post.


    Forgive when you are on top. Don't you want to be forgiven?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    When did AUS beat SL in SL in a Test in 2011, scorecard?
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lank...ch/516212.html


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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalhaSyed View Post
    Oh yea absolutely.

    With the current state of world cricket - no team is expected to win away from home, specially in Test cricket, so it will be unfair to expect Bangladesh to be any different.

    However, Bangladesh need to win - IMO particularly at Test cricket - more often at home, and be more competitive away from home, for an extended period of time, to not be considered minnows.

    Now, I know "being competitive" is a very subjective way of measuring something, so let me elaborate on that.

    The fact is that since the 1st of Jan 2015 (which is when Bang really started doing well at home), they have only won 1 match away from home (in any format) - last weeks Test win VS SL.

    The only teams who have a worse W/L ratio away from home in the last 2 years are Oman & U.A.E. All the other teams have won more matches (bar Nepal who have won the same number of matches) and have a better W/L ratio away from home than Bangladesh - including the likes of Zimbabwe, Ireland, Afghanistan, Netherlands, Scotland, Hong Kong and P.N.G

    Now I know the likes of Afg, Ire, Scot, PNG etc. are not playing against 'the big teams', but that stat shows very clearly why Bang are still considered minnows in the 'big team league', and how poor their performance away from home conditions has been.

    They have played 13 games away from home since 2015 and in those 13 they have won 1 against SL last week. They were competitive in 1 T20 game VS India where they lost by 1 run because they started celebrating too early, couldn't score 1 run to win off the last 3 deliveries and lost 3 wickets in the last 3 balls. Apart from that in the other 11 games, they only lost 1 game by less than 47 runs (27 run defeat in a T20 VS NZ) and 1 game by less than 6 wickets (3 wicket defeat in a ODI VS NZ).

    I wouldn't deem that 'competitive' by any stretch of the imagination.

    Meanwhile you add to that the fact that in Test & T20 cricket, their over all record (as posted in post #69) in the last 2 years is pretty poor and nothing to rave about. AND then you have the fact that they have played very average cricket for 29 years, and only been playing half decent cricket in certain formats and certain conditions for the last two years.

    The fact that some Bengali fans think that based on that sort of performance Bangladesh no longer deserve to be called minnows is ridiculous in my opinion.

    As we are both saying - Bangladesh are on the right tracks and are doing very well. They should be taken seriously in LO matches, specially in sub-continental conditions. No one is expecting them to win consistently away from home, but if they want to lose the 'minnow' label they really need to start winning more Test matches and T20's at home (thus improving their overall record) and at least be competitive away from home for an extended period of time - specially after being so poor for so long.
    India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have won a grand total of 5/4 matches in SA combined.
    South Africa has won 5 games in India alone. They've won double that when we include Sri Lanka, Pakistan and UAE.
    Basically one country has won more games away than three full ICC members have.
    Should we stipulate that India, Lanka and Pakistan are minnows?

    Give Bangladesh a break, they're building something special.
    I know this thread will be bumped a lot during the Australian tour, which in itself is not fair.
    AUstralia have turned a page, they are not the same side that lost 3-0 to Lanka.
    After going 2-0 against SA they've completely revamped the side.
    So expect them to be competitive in Bangladesh if not win that series.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have won a grand total of 5/4 matches in SA combined.
    South Africa has won 5 games in India alone. They've won double that when we include Sri Lanka, Pakistan and UAE.
    Basically one country has won more games away than three full ICC members have.
    Should we stipulate that India, Lanka and Pakistan are minnows?

    Give Bangladesh a break, they're building something special.
    I know this thread will be bumped a lot during the Australian tour, which in itself is not fair.
    AUstralia have turned a page, they are not the same side that lost 3-0 to Lanka.
    After going 2-0 against SA they've completely revamped the side.
    So expect them to be competitive in Bangladesh if not win that series.
    Pakistan and India's Tests wins are above 200 combined. Bangladesh's total Test wins do not even reach double digits (9). In Tests there is no question they are still a minnow. Not in ODIs however.

  7. #87
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    No.

    Opening -> Good
    Middle Odder -> Ok
    Lower Order -> slightly weak
    Spinners -> Good
    Fast Bowlers -> Ok

    Not a minnow.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    That is your personal standard for the word "minnow".
    It's not my personal standard, it's what cricket historians and experts in the field of Pakistan cricket unanimously agree on to be the turning point when Pakistan was finally recognised as one of the 'big boys'. Most people would agree that Mushtaq Muhammad's captaincy began a new chapter in our history.


    The passion and the flame is ignited, you can't stop us once we light it!

  9. #89
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    Thanks Abdullah!


    The passion and the flame is ignited, you can't stop us once we light it!

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    When did AUS beat SL in SL in a Test in 2011, scorecard? Your goal posts have changed since your reasoning behind BD's alleged minnow status does not stand up. By your definition 50% of international teams much be minnows then
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lank...ch/516212.html

    My goal posts have not shifted, if you look at my earlier posts I kept mentioning they have to accumulate wins abroad across formats. I'm sorry but every non-minnow team wins at least one game across formats over the course of a tour. Even Pakistan beat Australia in the 2nd odi that's the difference between a minnow and a non-minnow. Also Sri Lanka did become a non-minnow through success in odi's, so Bangladesh can shed their tag through the shorter format as well.

    Bangladesh keep getting whitewashed in ODI's abroad as well apart from a rare win here and there. They haven't become a non-minnow in limited overs completely yet. Their only bilateral wins abroad in ODI's against top teams came against England in 2010 and Sri Lanka in 2013. They have to do more than that. So what if they beat England in one world cup game, they've done that against India and South Africa in 2007 and Pakistan in 1999. Are you telling me they weren't considered minnows after that? The only thing that has changed for them is success at home, even though they lost to England at home recently. They've become competitive abroad but just being competitive doesn't shed the minnow tag, you have to accumulate a few wins, currently they have a grand total of 2 bilateral ODI wins and one win in tests against Sri Lanka just now. There is nothing nonsensical about that.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 22nd March 2017 at 22:49.


    The passion and the flame is ignited, you can't stop us once we light it!

  11. #91
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    I have read every argument in this thread - some are fantastic on data point, on historical context while some are based on some valid logic.

    I think, the difference between a minnow & a reputed side is not about the result only - itís about capability to compete. Minnow teams donít have system, neither a player pool, therefore sometimes they do stun established teams, but most cases, itís a one sided affair. While established teams might not win, but they keep the contest alive for most matches. Instead of going to India/Pakistanís early days, I can give couple of recent examples Ė from August 1986 to April 2002, thatís almost 16 years, Indiaís in total Test win out side home was one at Colombo in í92 & one at Dhaka, our 1st Test. After 1996 SCG, till Leeds 2010, thatís 14 years, PAKís Test result against AUS was played 15, lost 13 Ė if we take Tests in AUS only, itís 12-0 out of 12 Ė none will say that in 90s, India was Test minnows outside home or Pakistan a minnow in Australia.

    Coming to Bangladesh, I think, in ODI, we had been in between minnow & a poor side for few years from 2005 to 2014 Ė that 10 years or so, we had lost many matches, most of them one sided, but at the same time we took out India & England out of ODI WC, WI from T20 WC & beat AUS, NZ, SAF, ENG, IND, SRL in meaningful matches (not dead rubber). Probably, itís from 2015 WC, that teams started to take notice that unless they play to full potential, BDíll hurt them. But, even that period, we have lost to Afghans, to Hong Kong Ė which is actually now at the receiving end of what we did in between 2005-2014 period. These days, no one will be surprised if BD beats SAF, AUS, IND or ENG Ė rather people will be surprised if Afghans, Zimboks or Irisesí beat us. Thatís probably enough to explain where we belong in shorter version.

    Improving in Test cricket is not only toughest in cricket, but probably considering most sports; because of the unique nature of the game. Test cricket is extremely skilled & the core of the game needs lots of experience, culture & unique qualities. Itís the only team game dominated by individual skills. Itís not like soccer or basketball that a coach can form a combination with average but extremely fit & committed players whoíll fight out a draw or close the gap. In Test cricket, at the highest level, itís the top bowlers vs the top batsmen, therefore improving in Test isnít easy Ė you have to find exceptional talented players, who can win one on ones. Therefore, the system has to produce top class individuals. For example, I can say that top European & Latin coaches has taken Middle Eastern football teams to a very high level, and they are competing with the top teams, but how many top class individuals have emerged from Saudi Arab, Iran or Qatar? Itís same for basketball, volleyball (Iran is No. 7 in world!), hockey, rugby or handball; but really difficult in cricket. Besides, Test cricket needs lots of culturing Ė itís played over 2 innings, therefore the better team gets chances to make a comeback, while weaker teams often lose the match in Day 4 & 5.

    I think, improving in Test cricket has few steps. First at home, take the match to Day 5, then start to draw, then stat to win odd Test, finally win series. After that, do the same away Ė highest of which, in the history of cricket only one team ever did Ė that WI side, which, possessed all 10 rubbers they played (home & away against AUS, ENG, IND, PAK & NZ) at one point of time. If I give a score for each of these steps, we actually started from zero Ė thatís without rain, certain to lose a home Test against any reputed side. If I take the highest as 10; at present, we are probably between 4.5 to 5 Ė thatís capable of winning home Tests against most sides, may be series as well against some sides while capable to surprise many teams away, beating few occasionally. Itís in the lower half, but definitely not minnows.

    Apart from the game itself, there should be few factors considered Ė market size, public interest, domestic infrastructures, player pools etc. For example, England team hasnít anything in last 60 years Ė yet they are considered a superpower along with Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy & Spain, I am talking about soccer here. In that regard, we are ahead pf WI, SRL, probably even NZ as well. Itís a fast developing team with the core of the players are young & the junior teams are better than the senior teams in terms of relative performance, which indicates positive movement. Besides, unlike Pakistan, most of our National players were best performers at U16 & U19 level Ė which indicates that the domestic system is functioning Ė that transition between raw talent & pro sportsman is happening.

    Considering every factors, I would say, now we are an established cricket nation (power, if we donít consider that only 7/8 teams play it seriously), with a poor Test team, but certainly not minnows anymore.

    @QalandarFan; @shaz619

  12. #92
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    The day Bangla start as favorites in a test series apart from WI (who are also minnows currently) and go on to win the series albeit home or away, the minnow tag will be shed out

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    I have read every argument in this thread - some are fantastic on data point, on historical context while some are based on some valid logic.

    I think, the difference between a minnow & a reputed side is not about the result only - it’s about capability to compete. Minnow teams don’t have system, neither a player pool, therefore sometimes they do stun established teams, but most cases, it’s a one sided affair. While established teams might not win, but they keep the contest alive for most matches. Instead of going to India/Pakistan’s early days, I can give couple of recent examples – from August 1986 to April 2002, that’s almost 16 years, India’s in total Test win out side home was one at Colombo in ’92 & one at Dhaka, our 1st Test. After 1996 SCG, till Leeds 2010, that’s 14 years, PAK’s Test result against AUS was played 15, lost 13 – if we take Tests in AUS only, it’s 12-0 out of 12 – none will say that in 90s, India was Test minnows outside home or Pakistan a minnow in Australia.

    Coming to Bangladesh, I think, in ODI, we had been in between minnow & a poor side for few years from 2005 to 2014 – that 10 years or so, we had lost many matches, most of them one sided, but at the same time we took out India & England out of ODI WC, WI from T20 WC & beat AUS, NZ, SAF, ENG, IND, SRL in meaningful matches (not dead rubber). Probably, it’s from 2015 WC, that teams started to take notice that unless they play to full potential, BD’ll hurt them. But, even that period, we have lost to Afghans, to Hong Kong – which is actually now at the receiving end of what we did in between 2005-2014 period. These days, no one will be surprised if BD beats SAF, AUS, IND or ENG – rather people will be surprised if Afghans, Zimboks or Irises’ beat us. That’s probably enough to explain where we belong in shorter version.

    Improving in Test cricket is not only toughest in cricket, but probably considering most sports; because of the unique nature of the game. Test cricket is extremely skilled & the core of the game needs lots of experience, culture & unique qualities. It’s the only team game dominated by individual skills. It’s not like soccer or basketball that a coach can form a combination with average but extremely fit & committed players who’ll fight out a draw or close the gap. In Test cricket, at the highest level, it’s the top bowlers vs the top batsmen, therefore improving in Test isn’t easy – you have to find exceptional talented players, who can win one on ones. Therefore, the system has to produce top class individuals. For example, I can say that top European & Latin coaches has taken Middle Eastern football teams to a very high level, and they are competing with the top teams, but how many top class individuals have emerged from Saudi Arab, Iran or Qatar? It’s same for basketball, volleyball (Iran is No. 7 in world!), hockey, rugby or handball; but really difficult in cricket. Besides, Test cricket needs lots of culturing – it’s played over 2 innings, therefore the better team gets chances to make a comeback, while weaker teams often lose the match in Day 4 & 5.

    I think, improving in Test cricket has few steps. First at home, take the match to Day 5, then start to draw, then stat to win odd Test, finally win series. After that, do the same away – highest of which, in the history of cricket only one team ever did – that WI side, which, possessed all 10 rubbers they played (home & away against AUS, ENG, IND, PAK & NZ) at one point of time. If I give a score for each of these steps, we actually started from zero – that’s without rain, certain to lose a home Test against any reputed side. If I take the highest as 10; at present, we are probably between 4.5 to 5 – that’s capable of winning home Tests against most sides, may be series as well against some sides while capable to surprise many teams away, beating few occasionally. It’s in the lower half, but definitely not minnows.

    Apart from the game itself, there should be few factors considered – market size, public interest, domestic infrastructures, player pools etc. For example, England team hasn’t anything in last 60 years – yet they are considered a superpower along with Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy & Spain, I am talking about soccer here. In that regard, we are ahead pf WI, SRL, probably even NZ as well. It’s a fast developing team with the core of the players are young & the junior teams are better than the senior teams in terms of relative performance, which indicates positive movement. Besides, unlike Pakistan, most of our National players were best performers at U16 & U19 level – which indicates that the domestic system is functioning – that transition between raw talent & pro sportsman is happening.

    Considering every factors, I would say, now we are an established cricket nation (power, if we don’t consider that only 7/8 teams play it seriously), with a poor Test team, but certainly not minnows anymore.

    @QalandarFan; @shaz619
    I respect your argument but I would just like to point out that from 1986 to 2002, India won a bilateral series in England in 86 and 90, and the Natwest series in England in 2002 as well as a bilateral series in 1992 in South Africa.

    Pakistan won the tri-series in Australia in 1997, a bilateral series against Australia in Australia in 2002, and drew a bilateral series in England in 2006.

    While during the periods you have mentioned for both teams, Pakistan and India were not doing well in tests abroad like almost all teams today, they were still winning bilateral series every so often against the top teams away from home something Bangladesh have still not done. Till they do that I feel their minnow tag will not have been shed.

    Bangladesh are on the verge of going onto be a major cricketing nation but until they achieve certain milestones in their international cricketing journey certain tags will not be shed even if other indicators are starting to show otherwise. Of course our opinions can differ based on our own take on certain things. I feel the term minnow is being incorrectly viewed as a derogatory term by some.


    The passion and the flame is ignited, you can't stop us once we light it!

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    I have read every argument in this thread - some are fantastic on data point, on historical context while some are based on some valid logic.

    I think, the difference between a minnow & a reputed side is not about the result only - it’s about capability to compete. Minnow teams don’t have system, neither a player pool, therefore sometimes they do stun established teams, but most cases, it’s a one sided affair. While established teams might not win, but they keep the contest alive for most matches. Instead of going to India/Pakistan’s early days, I can give couple of recent examples – from August 1986 to April 2002, that’s almost 16 years, India’s in total Test win out side home was one at Colombo in ’92 & one at Dhaka, our 1st Test. After 1996 SCG, till Leeds 2010, that’s 14 years, PAK’s Test result against AUS was played 15, lost 13 – if we take Tests in AUS only, it’s 12-0 out of 12 – none will say that in 90s, India was Test minnows outside home or Pakistan a minnow in Australia.

    Coming to Bangladesh, I think, in ODI, we had been in between minnow & a poor side for few years from 2005 to 2014 – that 10 years or so, we had lost many matches, most of them one sided, but at the same time we took out India & England out of ODI WC, WI from T20 WC & beat AUS, NZ, SAF, ENG, IND, SRL in meaningful matches (not dead rubber). Probably, it’s from 2015 WC, that teams started to take notice that unless they play to full potential, BD’ll hurt them. But, even that period, we have lost to Afghans, to Hong Kong – which is actually now at the receiving end of what we did in between 2005-2014 period. These days, no one will be surprised if BD beats SAF, AUS, IND or ENG – rather people will be surprised if Afghans, Zimboks or Irises’ beat us. That’s probably enough to explain where we belong in shorter version.

    Improving in Test cricket is not only toughest in cricket, but probably considering most sports; because of the unique nature of the game. Test cricket is extremely skilled & the core of the game needs lots of experience, culture & unique qualities. It’s the only team game dominated by individual skills. It’s not like soccer or basketball that a coach can form a combination with average but extremely fit & committed players who’ll fight out a draw or close the gap. In Test cricket, at the highest level, it’s the top bowlers vs the top batsmen, therefore improving in Test isn’t easy – you have to find exceptional talented players, who can win one on ones. Therefore, the system has to produce top class individuals. For example, I can say that top European & Latin coaches has taken Middle Eastern football teams to a very high level, and they are competing with the top teams, but how many top class individuals have emerged from Saudi Arab, Iran or Qatar? It’s same for basketball, volleyball (Iran is No. 7 in world!), hockey, rugby or handball; but really difficult in cricket. Besides, Test cricket needs lots of culturing – it’s played over 2 innings, therefore the better team gets chances to make a comeback, while weaker teams often lose the match in Day 4 & 5.

    I think, improving in Test cricket has few steps. First at home, take the match to Day 5, then start to draw, then stat to win odd Test, finally win series. After that, do the same away – highest of which, in the history of cricket only one team ever did – that WI side, which, possessed all 10 rubbers they played (home & away against AUS, ENG, IND, PAK & NZ) at one point of time. If I give a score for each of these steps, we actually started from zero – that’s without rain, certain to lose a home Test against any reputed side. If I take the highest as 10; at present, we are probably between 4.5 to 5 – that’s capable of winning home Tests against most sides, may be series as well against some sides while capable to surprise many teams away, beating few occasionally. It’s in the lower half, but definitely not minnows.

    Apart from the game itself, there should be few factors considered – market size, public interest, domestic infrastructures, player pools etc. For example, England team hasn’t anything in last 60 years – yet they are considered a superpower along with Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy & Spain, I am talking about soccer here. In that regard, we are ahead pf WI, SRL, probably even NZ as well. It’s a fast developing team with the core of the players are young & the junior teams are better than the senior teams in terms of relative performance, which indicates positive movement. Besides, unlike Pakistan, most of our National players were best performers at U16 & U19 level – which indicates that the domestic system is functioning – that transition between raw talent & pro sportsman is happening.

    Considering every factors, I would say, now we are an established cricket nation (power, if we don’t consider that only 7/8 teams play it seriously), with a poor Test team, but certainly not minnows anymore.

    @QalandarFan; @shaz619
    Great post re: ODIs. However as I said earlier, you can't shed your minnow tag in Tests with only 9 wins in the entire format so far. The 'dark period' between 86 and 2002 you mentioned for Pakistan, we had won 44 Tests and lost only 29 during the period.

    You cannot convince someone that Bangladesh is not a minnow in Tests when you don't have wins in double digits in the format.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Pakistan and India's Tests wins are above 200 combined. Bangladesh's total Test wins do not even reach double digits (9). In Tests there is no question they are still a minnow. Not in ODIs however.
    That's got nothing to do with my post.
    Anyhow I don't think SA has won 200 Tests themselves, by your definition they'd be minnows.

    Bangladesh have improved over the last two years or so, labeling them as minnows would be disrespectful imo.

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    If you go by @Junaids view of the cricket world ... India was a Test Minnow as recently as the 80s and early 90s .... so there


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    That's got nothing to do with my post.
    Anyhow I don't think SA has won 200 Tests themselves, by your definition they'd be minnows.

    Bangladesh have improved over the last two years or so, labeling them as minnows would be disrespectful imo.
    Pakistan have won 130, India & South Africa a similar amount.

    If you think a team that has not even won 10 Test matches is not a minnow in that format then you have a different definition of minnow. If South Africa had only won NINE Test matches in their history I'd be calling them a minnow too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A.A.Z View Post
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lank...ch/516212.html

    My goal posts have not shifted, if you look at my earlier posts I kept mentioning they have to accumulate wins abroad across formats. I'm sorry but every non-minnow team wins at least one game across formats over the course of a tour. Even Pakistan beat Australia in the 2nd odi that's the difference between a minnow and a non-minnow. Also Sri Lanka did become a non-minnow through success in odi's, so Bangladesh can shed their tag through the shorter format as well.

    Bangladesh keep getting whitewashed in ODI's abroad as well apart from a rare win here and there. They haven't become a non-minnow in limited overs completely yet. Their only bilateral wins abroad in ODI's against top teams came against England in 2010 and Sri Lanka in 2013. They have to do more than that. So what if they beat England in one world cup game, they've done that against India and South Africa in 2007 and Pakistan in 1999. Are you telling me they weren't considered minnows after that? The only thing that has changed for them is success at home, even though they lost to England at home recently. They've become competitive abroad but just being competitive doesn't shed the minnow tag, you have to accumulate a few wins, currently they have a grand total of 2 bilateral ODI wins and one win in tests against Sri Lanka just now. There is nothing nonsensical about that.
    You are using ODI's as the measuring stick and in that particular format they've been more then decent, I've already explained in earlier posts the extent of their prowess despite the obstacles which they have faced and their achievements relative to other teams at a similar level of experience in their test history
    Last edited by shaz619; 23rd March 2017 at 12:21.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    I have read every argument in this thread - some are fantastic on data point, on historical context while some are based on some valid logic.

    I think, the difference between a minnow & a reputed side is not about the result only - it’s about capability to compete. Minnow teams don’t have system, neither a player pool, therefore sometimes they do stun established teams, but most cases, it’s a one sided affair. While established teams might not win, but they keep the contest alive for most matches. Instead of going to India/Pakistan’s early days, I can give couple of recent examples – from August 1986 to April 2002, that’s almost 16 years, India’s in total Test win out side home was one at Colombo in ’92 & one at Dhaka, our 1st Test. After 1996 SCG, till Leeds 2010, that’s 14 years, PAK’s Test result against AUS was played 15, lost 13 – if we take Tests in AUS only, it’s 12-0 out of 12 – none will say that in 90s, India was Test minnows outside home or Pakistan a minnow in Australia.

    Coming to Bangladesh, I think, in ODI, we had been in between minnow & a poor side for few years from 2005 to 2014 – that 10 years or so, we had lost many matches, most of them one sided, but at the same time we took out India & England out of ODI WC, WI from T20 WC & beat AUS, NZ, SAF, ENG, IND, SRL in meaningful matches (not dead rubber). Probably, it’s from 2015 WC, that teams started to take notice that unless they play to full potential, BD’ll hurt them. But, even that period, we have lost to Afghans, to Hong Kong – which is actually now at the receiving end of what we did in between 2005-2014 period. These days, no one will be surprised if BD beats SAF, AUS, IND or ENG – rather people will be surprised if Afghans, Zimboks or Irises’ beat us. That’s probably enough to explain where we belong in shorter version.

    Improving in Test cricket is not only toughest in cricket, but probably considering most sports; because of the unique nature of the game. Test cricket is extremely skilled & the core of the game needs lots of experience, culture & unique qualities. It’s the only team game dominated by individual skills. It’s not like soccer or basketball that a coach can form a combination with average but extremely fit & committed players who’ll fight out a draw or close the gap. In Test cricket, at the highest level, it’s the top bowlers vs the top batsmen, therefore improving in Test isn’t easy – you have to find exceptional talented players, who can win one on ones. Therefore, the system has to produce top class individuals. For example, I can say that top European & Latin coaches has taken Middle Eastern football teams to a very high level, and they are competing with the top teams, but how many top class individuals have emerged from Saudi Arab, Iran or Qatar? It’s same for basketball, volleyball (Iran is No. 7 in world!), hockey, rugby or handball; but really difficult in cricket. Besides, Test cricket needs lots of culturing – it’s played over 2 innings, therefore the better team gets chances to make a comeback, while weaker teams often lose the match in Day 4 & 5.

    I think, improving in Test cricket has few steps. First at home, take the match to Day 5, then start to draw, then stat to win odd Test, finally win series. After that, do the same away – highest of which, in the history of cricket only one team ever did – that WI side, which, possessed all 10 rubbers they played (home & away against AUS, ENG, IND, PAK & NZ) at one point of time. If I give a score for each of these steps, we actually started from zero – that’s without rain, certain to lose a home Test against any reputed side. If I take the highest as 10; at present, we are probably between 4.5 to 5 – that’s capable of winning home Tests against most sides, may be series as well against some sides while capable to surprise many teams away, beating few occasionally. It’s in the lower half, but definitely not minnows.

    Apart from the game itself, there should be few factors considered – market size, public interest, domestic infrastructures, player pools etc. For example, England team hasn’t anything in last 60 years – yet they are considered a superpower along with Germany, Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy & Spain, I am talking about soccer here. In that regard, we are ahead pf WI, SRL, probably even NZ as well. It’s a fast developing team with the core of the players are young & the junior teams are better than the senior teams in terms of relative performance, which indicates positive movement. Besides, unlike Pakistan, most of our National players were best performers at U16 & U19 level – which indicates that the domestic system is functioning – that transition between raw talent & pro sportsman is happening.

    Considering every factors, I would say, now we are an established cricket nation (power, if we don’t consider that only 7/8 teams play it seriously), with a poor Test team, but certainly not minnows anymore.

    @QalandarFan; @shaz619
    Good post brother, very insightful


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by soso_killer View Post
    India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka have won a grand total of 5/4 matches in SA combined.
    South Africa has won 5 games in India alone. They've won double that when we include Sri Lanka, Pakistan and UAE.
    Basically one country has won more games away than three full ICC members have.
    Should we stipulate that India, Lanka and Pakistan are minnows?

    Give Bangladesh a break, they're building something special.
    I know this thread will be bumped a lot during the Australian tour, which in itself is not fair.
    AUstralia have turned a page, they are not the same side that lost 3-0 to Lanka.
    After going 2-0 against SA they've completely revamped the side.
    So expect them to be competitive in Bangladesh if not win that series.
    Would you please show me where I have said that unless a team can win all overseas conditions (or any overseas conditions for that matter), they should be considered a minnow?

  21. #101
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    They are definitely still test minnows. They have how many wins out of a 100 tests? The yare however a pretty decent ODI side and a very good one while at home.

  22. #102
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    What's with this comment about wins in first 100 matches.

    Bangladesh got test status when cricket was at it's Pinnacle. Infact the 9th ranked test team back then was good enough to beat top teams these days.

    Flower brothers. Campbell. Goodwin. Heath streak.

  23. #103
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    Yes they do.


    They are ranked below Afghanistan in T20s. As my friend @Dios will confirm.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  24. #104
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    If Bangladesh is a minnow, and they win the next time they play Pakistan (not unlikely), what would that make Pakistan? An infra-minnow, a sub-minnow, a nimmow?

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    If Bangladesh is a minnow, and they win the next time they play Pakistan (not unlikely), what would that make Pakistan? An infra-minnow, a sub-minnow, a nimmow?
    No. Bangladesh beat India in a series, who aren't minnows.

  26. #106
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    I don't really care about stats or win percentages, that's not indicative of the current strength for the current Bangladesh side.
    Windies have 2/3 WC, SA zero. Are the Windies currently a better ODI unit than SA? Historically, perhaps, but currently? I don't think so.
    Same applies to Bangladesh, it's going to take decades for them to rectify their record.
    Even if they win the next 6 matches in a row at home they'd still have a paltry 15 wins from 100+ Tests. Those are still minnow numbers, would it be sensible to continue labeling them as minnows?

  27. #107
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    Australia should win the BD series without too much trouble

    Speaking of which, is the series even happening in the first place ?

  28. #108
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    Can't believe we have such a thread in 2017 now

    Bangladesh lost their "minnow" tag way back in 2010 when they beat New Zealand 4-0 in ODIs. Forget Bangladesh, even teams like Afghanistan & Ireland don't deserve to be called minnows either

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    @Pakpak; @A.A.Z

    I explained it in my 2nd para - minnow & non minnow isn't or shouldn't be defined with win loss. Number of wins are often a factor of time, as long as the progression curve is positive. Also, it's dependent on what's the level of contemporary teams - WI of late 70s, early 80s almost made every team like minnow (If Test matches were played in current regulations regarding time waste, slow over rate & make up of over loss; Lloyd's team won't have drawn a single match - 9 out of 10 wins & a sudden off day...) .

    The difference between minnow & non minnow is at what extent 2 teams are competing. In ODI, I don't think it's even an argument. In Test, we are competing both home & away - which you can say poor Test team, needs improvement; but it's certainly not the Test minnow Zimbabwe.

    * Don't look at the W/L too much, because of the change in playing condition these days. BD started playing Test, when it was 5 day, 450 overs & lots of make-up times, besides advanced technology (lights, super swapper ...) to ensure as many overs as possible, above all - NEUTRAL UMPIRES; which didn't help us to steal draws, (even some wins - I can recall at least 3 Tests against AUS, NZ & SAF - where 13 Bangladeshi would have definitely won the Test). You can check CricInfo for initial 3/4 decades of Test for every new team barring AUS/ENG - many of those draws were because of 3/4 Day Tests, weather interrupted matches, snail over rate, horrible home umpiring. Theoretically, replicate similar condition in Tests matches for BD, it won't look that bad.

  30. #110
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    In Test - Yes, still at a minnow level. Apart from 1 or 2 players, rest of the team don't have the temperament required for test matches.

    ODIs - No. Quite a decent team at home but need to start winning matches outside the comfort zone.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    @Pakpak; @A.A.Z

    I explained it in my 2nd para - minnow & non minnow isn't or shouldn't be defined with win loss. Number of wins are often a factor of time, as long as the progression curve is positive. Also, it's dependent on what's the level of contemporary teams - WI of late 70s, early 80s almost made every team like minnow (If Test matches were played in current regulations regarding time waste, slow over rate & make up of over loss; Lloyd's team won't have drawn a single match - 9 out of 10 wins & a sudden off day...) .

    The difference between minnow & non minnow is at what extent 2 teams are competing. In ODI, I don't think it's even an argument. In Test, we are competing both home & away - which you can say poor Test team, needs improvement; but it's certainly not the Test minnow Zimbabwe.

    * Don't look at the W/L too much, because of the change in playing condition these days. BD started playing Test, when it was 5 day, 450 overs & lots of make-up times, besides advanced technology (lights, super swapper ...) to ensure as many overs as possible, above all - NEUTRAL UMPIRES; which didn't help us to steal draws, (even some wins - I can recall at least 3 Tests against AUS, NZ & SAF - where 13 Bangladeshi would have definitely won the Test). You can check CricInfo for initial 3/4 decades of Test for every new team barring AUS/ENG - many of those draws were because of 3/4 Day Tests, weather interrupted matches, snail over rate, horrible home umpiring. Theoretically, replicate similar condition in Tests matches for BD, it won't look that bad.
    @MMHS whatever explanation you serve it won't change who have mindset of tagging us minnow. it more than actually mind set of others towards you. so what we can do? we can only perform ti change their mindset of tagging us minnow. when you will play better their mindset will change one day. though some people who have superiority complex wont change ever. discount them and perform better and better than previous. that's what we can do than argue with this topic


    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

  32. #112
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    In odis they are mediocre rathar than minnows but in tests though they are improving but still are minnows.


    It is either a heartache or a headache ..Argh relationships.

  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by JibranAnsari View Post
    In odis they are mediocre rathar than minnows but in tests though they are improving but still are minnows.
    'Once a minnow,always a minnow '- it's better,no?


    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nil Dhumrojal View Post
    'Once a minnow,always a minnow '- it's better,no?
    Calling spade a spade , one test match win doesnt change this fact. They need to win more test matches to get put of minnows category. Better than before but still minnows.


    It is either a heartache or a headache ..Argh relationships.

  35. #115
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    ^ and pakistan is a minnows in odis.


    It is either a heartache or a headache ..Argh relationships.

  36. #116
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    Once you are really better then none would dare to level you minnow. Simple.So be better rather than moaning.


    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

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