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  1. #1
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    Which nation has produced the most Test greats?

    This is a pretty simple question really and one I'm sure many have talked about in the past. During a conversation with some friends a while ago, I wondered the same thing and we came up with an objective criteria to try and count such "greats". This of course is only looking at test cricket (for now).

    A batting average of 50 or more is normally considered the hallmark of a great test batsman.

    A bowling average of 25 or less is normally a hallmark of a great test bowler.

    However, to do away with really short, sharp careers where true greatness can't really be judged, we stipulated a cut off of a minimum of 20 tests.

    So, before I reveal the results, ho do you think the test playing nations will rank? NO google or cricinfo, use your own knowledge. Before I started looking into it, this is how I thought things would turn out:

    1. Aus
    2. WI
    3. Pak
    4. SA
    5. Eng
    6. Ind
    7. SL
    8. NZ
    9. Zimb
    10. Bang

    I wasn't too sure with Pak, SA and Eng and feel they are interchangeable.

    So, you guys have a go too and then I'll reveal the results.

  2. #2
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    Australia
    Pakistan
    India


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  3. #3
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    .

    The Windies have about 9 ATG bowlers and batsmen...

    Headley, Weekes, Sobers, Worrell, Walcott, Lara, Chanderpaul, Richards, Kanhai

    Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Croft, Holding, Bishop, Walsh, Roberts, Hall

    My gut tells me the Aussies have more ATG batsmen and less bowlers.

  4. #4
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    Australia
    Pakistan
    India
    West Indies

  5. #5
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    In my lifetime, it has been Australia.

    These are guaranteed test greats.

    Ponting
    Waugh
    Gilchrist
    Warne
    McGrath

    Even the likes of Slater, Langer, and Hayden have been better than any ATG openers other countries have produced in the last 25 years.

  6. #6
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    some have mentioned pakistan..really.we have 3 bowlers one batsaman or may be two and what else????

  7. #7
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    Australia. It's a no brainer.

    Followed by England, India, West Indies and Pakistan , not in that order.

    South Africa and NZ come next.

    SA would have been higher if not for the lengthy ban between 1969 and 1992.

  8. #8
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    I'd go with WI.


    I can't think of anything else but this machine. I sell here, Sir, what all the world desires to have - POWER

  9. #9
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    Australia followed by West Indies.

  10. #10
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    Aus
    Eng
    WI
    Ind
    Pak

  11. #11
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    India has 3 established batsmen averaging over 50. You can argue they have 5 ATG test batsmen (if you include Sehwag and Kohli). Pakistan have 4.

    It's WI, AUS and England that have the most genuine ATG test bats.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestMatch View Post
    India has 3 established batsmen averaging over 50. You can argue they have 5 ATG test batsmen (if you include Sehwag and Kohli). Pakistan have 4.

    It's WI, AUS and England that have the most genuine ATG test bats.
    The average criteria isn't really accurate. Sehwag and Kohli can't be considered ATGs in tests because of averaging 50, and neither can Younis, Yousuf etc.

  13. #13
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    West Indies easily! They ruled the 70's and 80's kicking everyone around like a football. There are to many West Indian greats to be mentioned. Even 60's players like Rohan Kanhai can be considered a great as well.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  14. #14
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    Barbados

    Greenidge
    Haynes
    3 W's
    Sobers
    Holford
    Garner
    Marshall
    Clarke
    Hall

    Just missing a great spinner.

  15. #15
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    Probably go with

    Oz
    Windies
    Eng although most are from the amateur era
    SA
    Pak
    Ind
    SL
    NZ
    Zim

  16. #16
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    If not for apartheid, SA would be 2nd or 3rd on the list

  17. #17
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    Without counting those with unbelievable stats in cricket's first couple of decades,

    Australia
    West Indies
    India
    England
    South Africa
    Pakistan
    Sri Lanka
    New Zealand

  18. #18
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    AUS
    WIN
    ENG
    .
    .
    Sad/PAK/IND

    England's cricket glory was over by WW2, hence many of their greats are not known to recent cricket enthusiasts. If I don't go to relative quality of cricket by era, players like WG, Ranji, Archie McLaren, Arthur Shrewsberry, Rhodes, Hobbs, Woolley, Lehman, Barnes, Briggs, Blythe, Richardson, Ames, Lylend, Hammond, Compton, Larwood, Tate & few others are true legends of the game.

    AUS obviously had been among top 2/3 teams almost every decade since 1870s because in every generation they had ATGs. But, in terms of productivity, in just about 35 years, WI has given the highest number of Colossus the game had seen. Starting from mid 50s to late 80s, they have given enough players that can win almost every ATG head to heads.

    Ind/PAK & Saf has given many greats, but not many in ATG category. For PAK, it's utmost polarized - almost everyone of such List is within narrowedt span. Since YK debuting in 2000, there is hardly anyone in even great category, which actually indicates alarming signs.

  19. #19
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    Its gotta be in this order:

    AUS
    WI
    Eng
    SA
    Ind/Pak
    SL
    NZ

    SA, IMO, has already produced more ATGs than India and Pakistan had in their lifetime. The likes of Graeme Pollock, Kallis, Smith, Shaun Pollock, Donald and Steyn are sureshot ATGs.

  20. #20
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    Imo the undisputed greats of world cricket

    Australia
    Batsmen: Bradman, G Chappell, Border, S Waugh, Ponting
    Bowlers: Lillee, Warne, McGrath
    Wicketkeeper: Gilchrist

    England
    Batsmen: Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton
    Bowlers: Barnes, Trueman
    Wicketkeepers: Ames

    India
    Batsmen: Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid

    New Zealand
    Bowler: Hadlee

    Pakistan
    Batsman: Miandad
    Bowlers: Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    South Africa
    Allrounder: Kallis
    Batsmen:
    Bowlers: Donald, Steyn

    Sri Lanka
    Batsman: Sangakkara
    Bowler: Muralitharan

    West Indies
    Allrounder: Sobers
    Batsmen: Richards, Lara
    Bowlers: Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose

    These are the players whose rating as an ATG is indisputable (there are a whole other people you might argue for but I don't think there is any debate about any of the players on this list).


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Imo the undisputed greats of world cricket

    Australia
    Batsmen: Bradman, G Chappell, Border, S Waugh, Ponting
    Bowlers: Lillee, Warne, McGrath
    Wicketkeeper: Gilchrist

    England
    Batsmen: Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton
    Bowlers: Barnes, Trueman
    Wicketkeepers: Ames

    India
    Batsmen: Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid

    New Zealand
    Bowler: Hadlee

    Pakistan
    Batsman: Miandad
    Bowlers: Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    South Africa
    Allrounder: Kallis
    Batsmen:
    Bowlers: Donald, Steyn

    Sri Lanka
    Batsman: Sangakkara
    Bowler: Muralitharan

    West Indies
    Allrounder: Sobers
    Batsmen: Richards, Lara
    Bowlers: Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose

    These are the players whose rating as an ATG is indisputable (there are a whole other people you might argue for but I don't think there is any debate about any of the players on this list).

    Great list. I think, you missed few players including all-rounders, who should be in your list -

    AUS: V Trumper, Keith Miller, Richie Benaud, W O'Railey
    ENG: Compton, Botham, Laker
    WIN: Roberts, George Headley, Everton Weeks, Rohan Kanhai
    IND: Kapil
    PAK: Sohaib (He is recorded the fastest ever bowler, deserves an unique spot), Fazal Mahmood
    SAF: Greeme Pollock, Shaun Pollock

    I think, more or less top 3 spots are unanimous - AUS, WIN, ENG

  22. #22
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    Australia and West Indies

  23. #23
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    England and Australia have played more tests than everyone else so yeah, those two and throw in the Windies to round out the podium places.

  24. #24
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    Batsmen Pakistan
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    Bowler Pakistan
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    Batsmen India
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    Add Kapil Dev to list too.

    Australia Batsmen
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    Bowler Australia
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  25. #25
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    South Africa Bowling Greats
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    South Africa Batting Greats


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  26. #26
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    As far as greats go, Pakistan have Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Fazal and Asif. All of these players average 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sachin136 View Post
    The average criteria isn't really accurate. Sehwag and Kohli can't be considered ATGs in tests because of averaging 50, and neither can Younis, Yousuf etc.
    Sehwag and Kohli don't average 50 and the former is a certified FTB, with averages in the 20s in multiple countries. Kohli has only played 50-odd tests thus far, long way to go for him.

    Younis Khan is a bonafide ATG and far superior to both these guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Great list. I think, you missed few players including all-rounders, who should be in your list -

    AUS: V Trumper, Keith Miller, Richie Benaud, W O'Railey
    ENG: Compton, Botham, Laker
    WIN: Roberts, George Headley, Everton Weeks, Rohan Kanhai
    IND: Kapil
    PAK: Sohaib (He is recorded the fastest ever bowler, deserves an unique spot), Fazal Mahmood
    SAF: Greeme Pollock, Shaun Pollock

    I think, more or less top 3 spots are unanimous - AUS, WIN, ENG
    Kapil and Botham are no ATGs. Wouldn't make an elite team on either their bowling or their batting skills. Great all-rounders but not at the ATG level of Imran, Sobers, Miller or Kallis.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  27. #27
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    Lol at people putting Pakistan in the top 3. History lessons desperately in order.

  28. #28
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    Saw the title of this thread and I thought of Aus so fast.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    As far as greats go, Pakistan have Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Fazal and Asif. All of these players average 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball.



    Sehwag and Kohli don't average 50 and the former is a certified FTB, with averages in the 20s in multiple countries. Kohli has only played 50-odd tests thus far, long way to go for him.

    Younis Khan is a bonafide ATG and far superior to both these guys.



    Kapil and Botham are no ATGs. Wouldn't make an elite team on either their bowling or their batting skills. Great all-rounders but not at the ATG level of Imran, Sobers, Miller or Kallis.
    If Asif and Fazal are ATGs so are Ashwin/Jadeja

  30. #30
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    West Indies in the shortest time. Never had a great spinner though,spin didn't get its due till a white boy became the best in the world.

    West Indies in a short time had world's best all rounder,bowler and batsmen.Would say captain too.

  31. #31
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    Feel this Atg talk usually goes out of order , Junaids has still not shown up with his bait posts.

    Most of us know who are the Atgs, at max there wil be disagreement on one or two from each country,still we keep trying to discuss this.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatoo View Post
    Batsmen Pakistan
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    Bowler Pakistan
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    Batsmen India
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    Add Kapil Dev to list too.

    Australia Batsmen
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    Bowler Australia
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    Sahbbir Ahmed averaging 23 after 10 games??

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    As far as greats go, Pakistan have Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Fazal and Asif. All of these players average 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball.



    Sehwag and Kohli don't average 50 and the former is a certified FTB, with averages in the 20s in multiple countries. Kohli has only played 50-odd tests thus far, long way to go for him.

    Younis Khan is a bonafide ATG and far superior to both these guys.



    Kapil and Botham are no ATGs. Wouldn't make an elite team on either their bowling or their batting skills. Great all-rounders but not at the ATG level of Imran, Sobers, Miller or Kallis.
    So Asif deserves deserves to be mentioned as an ATG but not Kapil, Botham and Sehwag? You never fail to spring a surprise, have to give you credit for it.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Imo the undisputed greats of world cricket

    Australia
    Batsmen: Bradman, G Chappell, Border, S Waugh, Ponting
    Bowlers: Lillee, Warne, McGrath
    Wicketkeeper: Gilchrist

    England
    Batsmen: Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton
    Bowlers: Barnes, Trueman
    Wicketkeepers: Ames

    India
    Batsmen: Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid

    New Zealand
    Bowler: Hadlee

    Pakistan
    Batsman: Miandad
    Bowlers: Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    South Africa
    Allrounder: Kallis
    Batsmen:
    Bowlers: Donald, Steyn

    Sri Lanka
    Batsman: Sangakkara
    Bowler: Muralitharan

    West Indies
    Allrounder: Sobers
    Batsmen: Richards, Lara
    Bowlers: Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose

    These are the players whose rating as an ATG is indisputable (there are a whole other people you might argue for but I don't think there is any debate about any of the players on this list).
    Good list.
    Though I dont know much about the England ATGs you listed.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  35. #35
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    Well some of you guys have done well, the official list is:

    1. Aus - a total of 23!
    2. Eng - A very good total of 19
    3. WI - 14
    4. SA - 10, just pip Pak to the post
    5. Pak - 9
    6. Ind - 5, kind of middling
    7. NZ/SL - both on 2
    8. Bang/Zimb - both on 1

    I will be adding a little more to this analysis at some stage. I feel a lot of spinners get the short thrift with the 25 average limit and historicall spinners with an average of 30 or less have been considered great so I will be adding those names in. Ind may advance up the rankings but then, so would Pak and SL.

    In terms of England, it's very interesting to note that their only batsmen in almost half a century to average 50 or more is Root. Their bowling doesn't fare much better either. I expectedt hat which is why I ranked them slightly lower.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Well some of you guys have done well, the official list is:

    1. Aus - a total of 23!
    2. Eng - A very good total of 19
    3. WI - 14
    4. SA - 10, just pip Pak to the post
    5. Pak - 9
    6. Ind - 5, kind of middling
    7. NZ/SL - both on 2
    8. Bang/Zimb - both on 1

    I will be adding a little more to this analysis at some stage. I feel a lot of spinners get the short thrift with the 25 average limit and historicall spinners with an average of 30 or less have been considered great so I will be adding those names in. Ind may advance up the rankings but then, so would Pak and SL.

    In terms of England, it's very interesting to note that their only batsmen in almost half a century to average 50 or more is Root. Their bowling doesn't fare much better either. I expectedt hat which is why I ranked them slightly lower.
    What is the basis/ criteria of this list?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    What is the basis/ criteria of this list?
    Like I said in my op:

    Batmens averaging 50 or more

    Bowlers averaging 25 or less

    Throughout the history of cricket, these are the standards which define a great batsman or bowler (slightly diff for spinners so I will amend with that in mind).

    Of course there are great batsmen/bowlers without these numbers but they are the exception (KP) rathert han the rule (Tendy, Lara, Ponting, Bradman, Sobers et al). The same goes for bowlers.

    But keep in mind, this is a purely statistical look at players.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Like I said in my op:

    Batmens averaging 50 or more

    Bowlers averaging 25 or less
    .
    it doesn't work like that (Based on Stats ) ... unless you think Yousuf, Miandad, Younis are better batsman than VVS Laxman .

    Also the older test playing countries Aus and Eng have a huge advantage.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Like I said in my op:

    Batmens averaging 50 or more

    Bowlers averaging 25 or less

    Throughout the history of cricket, these are the standards which define a great batsman or bowler (slightly diff for spinners so I will amend with that in mind).

    Of course there are great batsmen/bowlers without these numbers but they are the exception (KP) rathert han the rule (Tendy, Lara, Ponting, Bradman, Sobers et al). The same goes for bowlers.

    But keep in mind, this is a purely statistical look at players.
    While i don't disagree with your criteria, i think it is an unfair comparison as australia and england get an advantage over others given the fact that they have played cricket a lot longer than others, doing one for Limited overs cricket will be a lot fairer for all countries.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Imo the undisputed greats of world cricket

    Australia
    Batsmen: Bradman, G Chappell, Border, S Waugh, Ponting
    Bowlers: Lillee, Warne, McGrath
    Wicketkeeper: Gilchrist

    England
    Batsmen: Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton
    Bowlers: Barnes, Trueman
    Wicketkeepers: Ames

    India
    Batsmen: Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid

    New Zealand
    Bowler: Hadlee

    Pakistan
    Batsman: Miandad
    Bowlers: Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    South Africa
    Allrounder: Kallis
    Batsmen:
    Bowlers: Donald, Steyn

    Sri Lanka
    Batsman: Sangakkara
    Bowler: Muralitharan

    West Indies
    Allrounder: Sobers
    Batsmen: Richards, Lara
    Bowlers: Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose

    These are the players whose rating as an ATG is indisputable (there are a whole other people you might argue for but I don't think there is any debate about any of the players on this list).
    Miandad is definitely not an ATG by international standards

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Like I said in my op:

    Batmens averaging 50 or more

    Bowlers averaging 25 or less

    Throughout the history of cricket, these are the standards which define a great batsman or bowler (slightly diff for spinners so I will amend with that in mind).

    Of course there are great batsmen/bowlers without these numbers but they are the exception (KP) rathert han the rule (Tendy, Lara, Ponting, Bradman, Sobers et al). The same goes for bowlers.

    But keep in mind, this is a purely statistical look at players.
    Thanks. And the minimum sample?Since its statistically, do guys like Jadeja/ Voges are also considered to that list or will be considered when they call it off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    As far as greats go, Pakistan have Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Fazal and Asif. All of these players average 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball.



    Sehwag and Kohli don't average 50 and the former is a certified FTB, with averages in the 20s in multiple countries. Kohli has only played 50-odd tests thus far, long way to go for him.

    Younis Khan is a bonafide ATG and far superior to both these guys.



    Kapil and Botham are no ATGs. Wouldn't make an elite team on either their bowling or their batting skills. Great all-rounders but not at the ATG level of Imran, Sobers, Miller or Kallis.
    Says the man who has Asif in his list!!!!!!!!

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    As for Yousuf, the man averages below 30 against Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka. Not to mention he averages 31 in Australia, 33 in India, 26 in South Africa, 33 in Sri Lanka, 38 in West Indies.

    Can anyone find a bigger FTB than him in history? I bet you can't.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    As for Yousuf, the man averages below 30 against Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka. Not to mention he averages 31 in Australia, 33 in India, 26 in South Africa, 33 in Sri Lanka, 38 in West Indies.

    Can anyone find a bigger FTB than him in history? I bet you can't.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    Yea, maybe.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Imo the undisputed greats of world cricket

    Australia
    Batsmen: Bradman, G Chappell, Border, S Waugh, Ponting
    Bowlers: Lillee, Warne, McGrath
    Wicketkeeper: Gilchrist

    England
    Batsmen: Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton
    Bowlers: Barnes, Trueman
    Wicketkeepers: Ames

    India
    Batsmen: Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid

    New Zealand
    Bowler: Hadlee

    Pakistan
    Batsman: Miandad
    Bowlers: Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    South Africa
    Allrounder: Kallis
    Batsmen:
    Bowlers: Donald, Steyn

    Sri Lanka
    Batsman: Sangakkara
    Bowler: Muralitharan

    West Indies
    Allrounder: Sobers
    Batsmen: Richards, Lara
    Bowlers: Garner, Holding, Marshall, Ambrose

    These are the players whose rating as an ATG is indisputable (there are a whole other people you might argue for but I don't think there is any debate about any of the players on this list).
    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Great list. I think, you missed few players including all-rounders, who should be in your list -

    AUS: V Trumper, Keith Miller, Richie Benaud, W O'Railey
    ENG: Compton, Botham, Laker
    WIN: Roberts, George Headley, Everton Weeks, Rohan Kanhai
    IND: Kapil
    PAK: Sohaib (He is recorded the fastest ever bowler, deserves an unique spot), Fazal Mahmood
    SAF: Greeme Pollock, Shaun Pollock

    I think, more or less top 3 spots are unanimous - AUS, WIN, ENG
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    As far as greats go, Pakistan have Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Miandad, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Fazal and Asif. All of these players average 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball.



    Sehwag and Kohli don't average 50 and the former is a certified FTB, with averages in the 20s in multiple countries. Kohli has only played 50-odd tests thus far, long way to go for him.

    Younis Khan is a bonafide ATG and far superior to both these guys.



    Kapil and Botham are no ATGs. Wouldn't make an elite team on either their bowling or their batting skills. Great all-rounders but not at the ATG level of Imran, Sobers, Miller or Kallis.
    The pakistanis are missing the Little Master of pakistan;Hanif Mohammad ..... so sad
    His stats seem quite lower than quite a few above mentioned but remember that he went through an era where bowlers ruled cricket.... still he deserved a mention atleast


    You Can Have Anything You Want If You Are Willing To Give Up The Belief That You Can't Have It

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Thanks. And the minimum sample?Since its statistically, do guys like Jadeja/ Voges are also considered to that list or will be considered when they call it off?
    I had a cut off of 20 tests.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 6th April 2017 at 15:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagatk View Post
    While i don't disagree with your criteria, i think it is an unfair comparison as australia and england get an advantage over others given the fact that they have played cricket a lot longer than others, doing one for Limited overs cricket will be a lot fairer for all countries.
    Length of time shouldn't be that big a factor. I don't think any of the players are from the 19th century and barely any from the first couple decades of the 20th century.

    And I will definitely be doing an ODI one but I just started off with tests because it is the most prominent and important form of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    it doesn't work like that (Based on Stats ) ... unless you think Yousuf, Miandad, Younis are better batsman than VVS Laxman .

    Also the older test playing countries Aus and Eng have a huge advantage.
    VVS better than Miandad? Inzy? Yousuf? hahaha

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    Amendments

    I have had to make some changes. I added in my new criteria (spin bowlers with an average of 30 or less) and this is how the list changes:

    1. Aus - a whopping 26 players now!
    2. Eng - an exceptional 22
    3. WI - further their lead to 18
    4. Pak - supercede SA with 15
    5. SA - 13
    6. Ind - jump quite a bit to 11
    7. SL - 3
    8. NZ - 2
    9. Zimb - 1
    10. Bang - amendment, I originally thought they had 1 player but they don't even have that. A big fat 0.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    VVS better than Miandad? Inzy? Yousuf? hahaha
    Not Miandad, but certainly better than Inzamam and Yousuf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    As for Yousuf, the man averages below 30 against Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka. Not to mention he averages 31 in Australia, 33 in India, 26 in South Africa, 33 in Sri Lanka, 38 in West Indies.

    Can anyone find a bigger FTB than him in history? I bet you can't.
    And not to forget the king of soft runs too.

    FTB
    Minnow Basher
    King of soft runs

    The guy got all qualities in him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    And not to forget the king of soft runs too.

    FTB
    Minnow Basher
    King of soft runs

    The guy got all qualities in him.
    Kallis?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Lets draw a boundary first for what would be considered as "Great".

    50+ average.

    For bowlers ending career before 80s, 200 wickets. After 80s 300 wkts.

    Can we agree on this first? Or you want to up the criteria?


    Forgive when you are on top. Don't you want to be forgiven?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BD-fan View Post
    Lets draw a boundary first for what would be considered as "Great".

    50+ average.

    For bowlers ending career before 80s, 200 wickets. After 80s 300 wkts.

    Can we agree on this first? Or you want to up the criteria?
    No, one can't measure greatness by numbers. The game has changed so much in 140 years that measuring average will be misleading. There are many bowlers in olden days who averaged under 20, while putting a cap doesn't work because there were too little cricket in olden days to stack up numbers. For example, both Fazal & O'Relly were true legends in their own right - they played about 63 Tests in combined career of almost 35 years.

    Unless we go to quality of cricket in different era - both Vic Trumper & WG Grace are true ATGs, Ranji as well. There has to be a subjective call - analyzing the then game & their impact to it. In any standard Charli Grimmet should be at ATG, but he is not rated highly even by his team mates; while hardly anyone in PP values Richard Hadlee or Allen Davidson or Neil Harvey - three ATGs in their own right. Another example can be Subhash Gupte - who is not even close to Ashwin by stats ...

    It has to be seen by every decade, instead of stats.

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    India, if you add Virat Kohli and Sachin Tendulkar together it equates to approximately 79.87 ATG's. Based on this number alone I see no case being made to dispute India's claim.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Kallis?
    What??

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    No, one can't measure greatness by numbers. The game has changed so much in 140 years that measuring average will be misleading. There are many bowlers in olden days who averaged under 20, while putting a cap doesn't work because there were too little cricket in olden days to stack up numbers. For example, both Fazal & O'Relly were true legends in their own right - they played about 63 Tests in combined career of almost 35 years.

    Unless we go to quality of cricket in different era - both Vic Trumper & WG Grace are true ATGs, Ranji as well. There has to be a subjective call - analyzing the then game & their impact to it. In any standard Charli Grimmet should be at ATG, but he is not rated highly even by his team mates; while hardly anyone in PP values Richard Hadlee or Allen Davidson or Neil Harvey - three ATGs in their own right. Another example can be Subhash Gupte - who is not even close to Ashwin by stats ...

    It has to be seen by every decade, instead of stats.
    Hadlee is accepted universally as an ATG. No one denies that. He is a kiwi and hence doesn't gets discussed much. Alan davidson and Harvey were ones who played 60-70 years ago. So hard to talk much of them as none of us have seen them.

    Trumper and Grace are ATGs IMO. I mean these guys name are still remembered 100 years later. So that does count for something.

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    West Indies

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    People use word "great" too cheaply some times.. Good luck if you think guys like Kanhai, Worrell or Weeks fall into that umbrella. Decent players no doubt but..

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    Quote Originally Posted by TestMatch View Post
    India has 3 established batsmen averaging over 50. You can argue they have 5 ATG test batsmen (if you include Sehwag and Kohli). Pakistan have 4.

    It's WI, AUS and England that have the most genuine ATG test bats.
    surely no one considers kohli and sehwag an atg for me

    For me the ATGs are:

    Pak : Imran, Wasim, Miandad, maybe YK
    India: Sachin, Gavaskar, Dravid


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    And not to forget the king of soft runs too.

    FTB
    Minnow Basher
    King of soft runs

    The guy got all qualities in him.
    talking about Jayawardene?


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by bleaf27 View Post
    Miandad is definitely not an ATG by international standards
    he most definitely is


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    Gutted with the snubbing of Botham.

    Beefy is absolutely an ATG impact all rounder.

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    Australia:

    Mcgrath, Warne, Lillie

    Bradman, Chappell, Ponting, Border, S Waugh

    Gilchrist, Miller

    England:

    WG Grace, Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond**

    Trueman, Botham, Barnes**

    India:

    Kapil Dev

    Sachin, Sunny, Dravid

    NZ:

    Hadlee

    Pakistan:

    Imran, Wasim, Waqar

    Miandad

    South Africa:

    Steyn, Pollock, Donald

    Kallis

    West Indies:

    Viv, Sobers, Lara, Headley **

    Marshall, Ambrose, Garner


    ** -refers to popular opinion although I personally don't agree with them being on the list.

    Almost tempted to put guys like Kumble, Walsh and Younis on the list but decided against it.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Gutted with the snubbing of Botham.

    Beefy is absolutely an ATG impact all rounder.
    Impact all rounder, the need to change the title to include "Impact" explains why he is not a great. Greats don't need extra words in the title so they can be included.

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    From a pre-WWi era, guys like Trumper, Spofforth, Ranji, Tom Richradson etc. would definitely qualify as top-tier players of their time but it's entirely separate discussion altogether. I would only include WG since he was not only influential in development of modern game, but also dominated the era in the manner matched only by Bradman ever since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Impact all rounder, the need to change the title to include "Impact" explains why he is not a great. Greats don't need extra words in the title so they can be included.
    He most definitely is ATG.. All four of them are although Hadlee to me isn't much of all-rounder but would get in the list based on bowling anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    talking about Jayawardene?
    Has played lots of great knocks although he is an HTB no doubt...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrish View Post
    australia:

    Mcgrath, warne, lillie

    bradman, chappell, ponting, border, s waugh

    gilchrist, miller

    england:

    wg grace, hobbs, hutton, hammond**

    trueman, botham, barnes**

    india:

    Kapil dev

    sachin, sunny, dravid

    nz:

    Hadlee

    pakistan:

    Imran, wasim, waqar

    miandad

    south africa:

    Steyn, pollock, donald

    kallis

    west indies:

    Viv, sobers, lara, headley **

    marshall, ambrose, garner


    ** -refers to popular opinion although i personally don't agree with them being on the list.

    Almost tempted to put guys like kumble, walsh and younis on the list but decided against it.
    sl??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    He most definitely is ATG.. All four of them are although Hadlee to me isn't much of all-rounder but would get in the list based on bowling anyways.
    hadlee, imran and botham?

    kapil seems a zabardasti ki entry by our indian posters

    ODI ATG no doubt


    #MPGA

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    Australia and South Africa

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    India, if you add Virat Kohli and Sachin Tendulkar together it equates to approximately 79.87 ATG's. Based on this number alone I see no case being made to dispute India's claim.
    LOOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Hadlee is accepted universally as an ATG. No one denies that. He is a kiwi and hence doesn't gets discussed much. Alan davidson and Harvey were ones who played 60-70 years ago. So hard to talk much of them as none of us have seen them.

    Trumper and Grace are ATGs IMO. I mean these guys name are still remembered 100 years later. So that does count for something.
    Of course Hadlee gets in, his test bowling average was like 22 or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Gutted with the snubbing of Botham.

    Beefy is absolutely an ATG impact all rounder.
    From purely a statistical basis, he isn't. Unless we look deeper into the analysis, which I wil be trying in the next few days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    hadlee, imran and botham?

    kapil seems a zabardasti ki entry by our indian posters

    ODI ATG no doubt
    I agree. Dev isn't an ATG bowler in tests (by Indian standards yes) and thus doesn ot rank up there with Khan or Hadlee (Khan is obviously the best bat of the lot).

    In terms of ODIs, he was certainly an impact players from what I've seen and read but I'm not sure how his numbers would stack up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    LOOL



    Of course Hadlee gets in, his test bowling average was like 22 or something.



    From purely a statistical basis, he isn't. Unless we look deeper into the analysis, which I wil be trying in the next few days.



    I agree. Dev isn't an ATG bowler in tests (by Indian standards yes) and thus doesn ot rank up there with Khan or Hadlee (Khan is obviously the best bat of the lot).

    In terms of ODIs, he was certainly an impact players from what I've seen and read but I'm not sure how his numbers would stack up.
    Not really. Anyone who saw cricket back then will say that Botham was the best with the bat, the most talented and devastating. Imran was an innings builder who could grind bowling attacks. And his batting average is a little superior than Botham due to his 'not out' innings.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    LOOL



    Of course Hadlee gets in, his test bowling average was like 22 or something.



    From purely a statistical basis, he isn't. Unless we look deeper into the analysis, which I wil be trying in the next few days.



    I agree. Dev isn't an ATG bowler in tests (by Indian standards yes) and thus doesn ot rank up there with Khan or Hadlee (Khan is obviously the best bat of the lot).

    In terms of ODIs, he was certainly an impact players from what I've seen and read but I'm not sure how his numbers would stack up.
    dont think imran khan is best bat of the lot

    botham probably


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    hadlee, imran and botham?

    kapil seems a zabardasti ki entry by our indian posters

    ODI ATG no doubt
    Rubbish.. took 400+ scalps and averaged 31. Was a proper aggressive lower order batsman

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    sl??
    Miss on my part. Anyways two names are obvious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Rubbish.. took 400+ scalps and averaged 31. Was a proper aggressive lower order batsman
    dont get triggered

    stats and legacy are there to decide his reputation as a rung below the other 3


    #MPGA

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    hadlee, imran and botham?

    kapil seems a zabardasti ki entry by our indian posters

    ODI ATG no doubt
    Kapil was never a zabardasti ki entry. Dont go just by stats.He had to lead the bowling attack and his stats got screwed a bit because he was carried for a longer time in a weak attack. He has got hundreds with the bat vs Windies attack. Not to forget a great captain.He was surely an ATG and perhaps a bigger stature to Dravid among his own countrymen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    Feel this Atg talk usually goes out of order

    Most of us know who are the Atgs, at max there wil be disagreement on one or two from each country,still we keep trying to discuss this.
    Summed up well.

    People setting their own criterias to justify their biases and throwing up random names makes this discussion meaningless.

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