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  1. #161
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    Australia, Pakistan, West Indies, England(?).


    At the end of a stressful, depressing day, a dose of cricket is what can cheer us up.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    Australia, Pakistan, West Indies, England(?).
    England don't deserve a mention. All there supposed greats come from the era of Dinosaurs- an era where trundlers dominate, substandard fielding and most importantly no video evidence of their 'greatness'

    These players are adjudged as ATG's by third person accounts and spreadsheets which more often then not are misleading.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    England don't deserve a mention. All there supposed greats come from the era of Dinosaurs- an era where trundlers dominate, substandard fielding and most importantly no video evidence of their 'greatness'

    These players are adjudged as ATG's by third person accounts and spreadsheets which more often then not are misleading.
    Yeah, that's why I wasn't too sure about England.


    At the end of a stressful, depressing day, a dose of cricket is what can cheer us up.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Well, Kallis wasn't really inferior to Sobers as a bowler. Towards the end of his career he was used as a part-timer because age had caught up to him but in his prime he was a decent pace bowler. He has better bowling stats than Sobers which does tell me that they were both on the same level as bowlers. Of course, nowhere close to Imran in this department.

    You're a great addition to this forum, by the way.
    Thank you Bilal lol

    And look, I don't want to discredit Kallis, he is one of the classiest cricketers I have ever seen and I probably missed the prime of his bowling (late 90s) BUT his batting does make up a lot for his bowling flaws so there isn't much to say if you would have him in the upper tier. I would JUST edge him out...just.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    England don't deserve a mention. All there supposed greats come from the era of Dinosaurs- an era where trundlers dominate, substandard fielding and most importantly no video evidence of their 'greatness'

    These players are adjudged as ATG's by third person accounts and spreadsheets which more often then not are misleading.
    Yes but the thread is about greatness as defined by numerical data. It is roundly accepted that a batting average of 50 or more is the mark of a great batsman (very few exceptions ofc) and a fast bowling average of under 25 is great....once again, very few exceptions to that rule.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleaf27 View Post
    Miandad is definitely not an ATG by international standards


    We're talking about international standards, not some random biased parosi.

    Go read about him from all the past Aus/Eng/WI greats.


    At the end of a stressful, depressing day, a dose of cricket is what can cheer us up.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    England don't deserve a mention. All there supposed greats come from the era of Dinosaurs- an era where trundlers dominate, substandard fielding and most importantly no video evidence of their 'greatness'

    These players are adjudged as ATG's by third person accounts and spreadsheets which more often then not are misleading.
    With the analysis done through this thread, we can tell something similar to Pakistan as well (because they achieved this when barring West Indies, Australia and England all other teams were almost minnows and England were a Trundler side as you say! Still they were left behind West Indies, Australia & England, doing only better than India which you all feel so proud!) But there are umpteen troll threads and posts in this forum for India's achievement of No.1 status in the era where most teams are competitive (at least at their home including Bangladesh!) When there is no appreciation for achievement happening today, then what can be expected to some achievement in the past which most people have not witnessed at all!

    By the way England is not a land of trundlers, even they have produced some quality pacers. It just that they preferred those kind of bowlers (or rather bowlers bowled like that) to suit their environment. Bowling raw pace meant they were easy to hit. But later those pitches became lot flatter and England started producing bowlers on par with other teams!

    And regarding fielding standards those days, what can be told about the team which is still fielding today (and batting) like as in 70s, 80s!

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    I don't agree that Pakistan have produced more ATGs than India in Test Cricket. Also the quality of ATGs is same or perhaps slightly better in favor of India, but certainly not more than India!

    As someone pointed out rightly:

    India:
    1) Sachin
    2) Gavaskar
    3) Dravid
    4) Kapil

    Pakistan:
    1) Imran
    2) Wasim
    3) Waqar
    4) Miandad

    This is a perfect list. But what I have done here is I have sorted this list in the order of strength/impact!

    Now it comes down to:

    Sachin vs Imran! I am sure respective countrymen will argue on this and will have their own bias and analysis. But neutrals will say who is the better ATG (not necessarily in this forum)! The impact and precision!

    Gavaskar vs Akram - Probably Akram may win over just slightly, maybe slightly (in my personal opinion). Gavaskar was a monster on his own in Test Cricket! I am sure he will get lots of vote in his favor in this contest, and may probably win it! Akram actually did even better in ODIs (was lethal). There (ODI where he is No.1) he may have to compete with Sachin (our No.1)

    Dravid vs Waqar - You have to look at the number of test matches these two played. Dravid has played twice more (160+ vs 80+)! I agree that a bowler (fast bowler) can't play that many test matches. But here the problem is he has to compete with a man like Dravid who maintained his greatness for such a long time. If this was something like Waqar vs Kumble, I am sure he would have won comfortably!

    Kapil vs Miandad - Now you have to observe that this is not Kapil vs. Imran contest anymore! In the previous example shall we say that Waqar's stats would have got diluted if he had played as many matches as Kapil! Similarly Dravid's & Kapil's stats would have improved like anything if they had played lesser matches! Let's not make assumptions based on our convenience!

    We can also go on to tell that somebody like Kumble is more near to this ATG list compared to Pakistani potential like Inzi. (Similarly Younis vs Laxman or Ganguly!) And for future India is more bright with Kohli, Ashwin (if he can resurrect his career!) while Pak has no such hopes (at least for the moment)!

    So overall India beats Pakistan at least by 3-1 in ATGs or quality of ATGs produced! I keep repeating that the reason why Pakistan did better than India in Test Cricket (in the past) is because their ATGs were stacked in the same team and they also had good support players (while India had an average/poor team most times - in the past) When there are good support players, a team performs much better and even their ATGs can improve their stats by applying relentless pressure! (But this thread is all about the number of ATGs produced and not necessarily about team strength!)

    Pakistanis should see this analysis with more open heart rather than making analysis based on their conveniences!

    Tendulkar is a cut above the rest of the players in this list ... and we get to see it regularly when he makes into most World XI teams. Its also evident in his overall record which is twice as that of Javed. Even on this forum there was a Poll on who was Asia's greatest cricketer and Tendulkar tied with Imran here is the link : http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/po...do=showresults


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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post


    We're talking about international standards, not some random biased parosi.

    Go read about him from all the past Aus/Eng/WI greats.
    You must be joking me , In what way is Miandad a great player even in his era let alone an ATG ?
    He is more remembered for his antics rather than his skills. He may be the best batsman Pakistan has produced but definitely not an ATG. You think Miandad was on par with Tendulkar, Lara , Sobers , Bradman - If they are considered ATG then how can you argue for Miandad to be an ATG ?
    An ATG for Pakistan not by international standards.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post


    We're talking about international standards, not some random biased parosi.

    Go read about him from all the past Aus/Eng/WI greats.
    Why bother with trolls who keep coming and going? Miandad is a legendary batsman and easily in the top five from the subcontinent. He doesn't need to be defended, his greatness is common knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Thank you Bilal lol

    And look, I don't want to discredit Kallis, he is one of the classiest cricketers I have ever seen and I probably missed the prime of his bowling (late 90s) BUT his batting does make up a lot for his bowling flaws so there isn't much to say if you would have him in the upper tier. I would JUST edge him out...just.
    Fair enough. I don't see much of a difference between him and Sobers but I can respect your opinion on this.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    England don't deserve a mention. All there supposed greats come from the era of Dinosaurs- an era where trundlers dominate, substandard fielding and most importantly no video evidence of their 'greatness'

    These players are adjudged as ATG's by third person accounts and spreadsheets which more often then not are misleading.
    Who do you rate before 70s?

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Who do you rate before 70s?
    Why do you think the three W's were HTBs and hence doesn't belong to ATG tier?Ofcourse, none of us were there in that era.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Why bother with trolls who keep coming and going? Miandad is a legendary batsman and easily in the top five from the subcontinent. He doesn't need to be defended, his greatness is common knowledge.
    So everybody that questions your views and opinions is a Troll ? Ever wondered why you get helplessly stuck defending those whom you consider as ATG's ? Its a sure shot sign that its time to reconsider your opinion.

    But knowing you .... you will do the opposite. Head-in-sand time in-coming.

    PS: There is a big difference between an ATG player and just a Great Player.


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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Why do you think the three W's were HTBs and hence doesn't belong to ATG tier?Ofcourse, none of us were there in that era.
    They were Jayawardene of their era..

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamLakhan View Post
    With the analysis done through this thread, we can tell something similar to Pakistan as well (because they achieved this when barring West Indies, Australia and England all other teams were almost minnows and England were a Trundler side as you say! Still they were left behind West Indies, Australia & England, doing only better than India which you all feel so proud!) But there are umpteen troll threads and posts in this forum for India's achievement of No.1 status in the era where most teams are competitive (at least at their home including Bangladesh!) When there is no appreciation for achievement happening today, then what can be expected to some achievement in the past which most people have not witnessed at all!

    By the way England is not a land of trundlers, even they have produced some quality pacers. It just that they preferred those kind of bowlers (or rather bowlers bowled like that) to suit their environment. Bowling raw pace meant they were easy to hit. But later those pitches became lot flatter and England started producing bowlers on par with other teams!

    And regarding fielding standards those days, what can be told about the team which is still fielding today (and batting) like as in 70s, 80s!
    I was talking about the pre-world war era...

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Who do you rate before 70s?
    Hard to take any of those amateur cricketers seriously.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    Hard to take any of those amateur cricketers seriously.
    What about Bradman and Sobers?

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by dildildalwalla View Post
    Yes but the thread is about greatness as defined by numerical data. It is roundly accepted that a batting average of 50 or more is the mark of a great batsman (very few exceptions ofc) and a fast bowling average of under 25 is great....once again, very few exceptions to that rule.
    This is exactly why stats alone are not sufficient to adjudge a player an ATG. The 60 era where 'fast bowlers' bowled no more than 125 km/h, there was no technology to work out a batsman's weakness and other factors that have been listed many times on this forum.
    Last edited by Ellipsism; 18th April 2017 at 03:18.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    What about Bradman and Sobers?
    Greats.

    Simply due to being vastly ahead when compared to their contemporaries and pioneers of the game. However, I will refrain from commenting on their cricketing skills as I haven't seen them play.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    Greats.

    Simply due to being vastly ahead when compared to their contemporaries and pioneers of the game. However, I will refrain from commenting on their cricketing skills as I haven't seen them play.
    Fair enough.. Who would be your top 5 list of batsmen and bowlers ?

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Fair enough.. Who would be your top 5 list of batsmen and bowlers ?
    In no particular order:

    Sachin
    Lara
    Ponting
    Sangakarra
    Richards

    McGrath
    Warne
    Marshall
    Ambrose
    Murali

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post
    In no particular order:

    Sachin
    Lara
    Ponting
    Sangakarra
    Richards

    McGrath
    Warne
    Marshall
    Ambrose
    Murali
    Okay cool.. Wanted to see the list in order but I guess that's for another thread

  23. #183
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    Some people are calling cricketers pre 50s amateur and I agree, cricket was hardly professional back then and many if not most cricketers played it as part time job. There were barely any nations playing the game and competition was nonexistent.

    There was a huge lack of variety in pitches and modern greats who are call flat track bullies might have been Bradmanesque too if they played back in the day. Sehwag averages 91 in Pakistan, Sangakkara averages 95 in Bangladesh, Yousuf averages 101.16 in West Indies. All these players have scored more than a 1000 runs in the respective countries, so the averages are not inflated by a single fluke knock

    Are past greats really great or just flat track bullies? Whatever the case maybe, the amateurs are not comparable to modern greats in any way

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Hmmm ... lets check some facts and stats shall we ?

    Here is Miandad vs WI which was the best team of his times as compared to other Indians:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    Even Kapil who batted much lower in the batting order has made more runs and hundreds than Javed. And here is the kicker : Javed never faced the top 4 WI fast bowlers in any match ( Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner ). Kapil played atleast 3 or 4 tests against that bowling attack.

    And just for kicks sake Kapil even took a small matter of 89 Wkts against WI (that includes a career best of 9/83 on a dead track) but thats just icing on the cake


    @Junaids @Napa
    There is a real problem with Miandad's record. I remember him playing India at home, and the umpires would just not give him out.

    Miandad at home before the introduction of neutral umpires averaged a phenomenal 78.14.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?d...ields=viewtype

    Playing abroad or at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his average falls to 44.31.

    In fact, even playing at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his averaged a massively different 39.90.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?c...ields=viewtype

    Certainly a case can be made that Miandad benefitted from home umpires.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Hmmm ... lets check some facts and stats shall we ?

    Here is Miandad vs WI which was the best team of his times as compared to other Indians:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    Even Kapil who batted much lower in the batting order has made more runs and hundreds than Javed. And here is the kicker : Javed never faced the top 4 WI fast bowlers in any match ( Roberts, Marshall, Holding, Garner ). Kapil played atleast 3 or 4 tests against that bowling attack.

    And just for kicks sake Kapil even took a small matter of 89 Wkts against WI (that includes a career best of 9/83 on a dead track) but thats just icing on the cake


    @Junaids @Napa
    Azhar Mehmood did better than Dravid against Donald and Pollock. I hope you will not have a problem in accepting that he was a better batsman than Dravid.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    There is a real problem with Miandad's record. I remember him playing India at home, and the umpires would just not give him out.

    Miandad at home before the introduction of neutral umpires averaged a phenomenal 78.14.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?d...ields=viewtype

    Playing abroad or at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his average falls to 44.31.

    In fact, even playing at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his averaged a massively different 39.90.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?c...ields=viewtype

    Certainly a case can be made that Miandad benefitted from home umpires.
    Miandad had back problems and he was in terminal decline in the 90s. Since, when are player judged on the basis of their performance in their twilight years?

  27. #187
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    Miandad was a champion batsman. He chased down 280+ score in a WC semi-final when such targets were unthinkable and played an important inning in the WC final as well.

    Definitely an ATG when King Viv chooses you to bat for his life!

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Miandad had back problems and he was in terminal decline in the 90s. Since, when are player judged on the basis of their performance in their twilight years?
    From pre to post neutral umpires, Miandad's away average actually rose from 37.96 to 58.63. So your hypothesis of "terminal decline" is invalid.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?i...ields=viewtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Azhar Mehmood did better than Dravid against Donald and Pollock. I hope you will not have a problem in accepting that he was a better batsman than Dravid.
    South Africa weren't the un-beatable top side during Dravid's time .... it was Aus. If you don't perform against the best team of your times and have so many other holes (see my earlier post ) then you cant claim that Cricketer as an ATG.


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  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    There is a real problem with Miandad's record. I remember him playing India at home, and the umpires would just not give him out.

    Miandad at home before the introduction of neutral umpires averaged a phenomenal 78.14.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?d...ields=viewtype

    Playing abroad or at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his average falls to 44.31.

    In fact, even playing at home after the introduction of neutral umpires, his averaged a massively different 39.90.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?c...ields=viewtype

    Certainly a case can be made that Miandad benefitted from home umpires.
    Great stat work! Yup there was always the cloud of umpiring surrounding JM's greatness.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Why bother with trolls who keep coming and going? Miandad is a legendary batsman and easily in the top five from the subcontinent. He doesn't need to be defended, his greatness is common knowledge.



    Fair enough. I don't see much of a difference between him and Sobers but I can respect your opinion on this.
    Miandad as an ATG is a common knowledge only to the Pakistani's I fear , no one else. He may be the best batsman produced by Pakistan but that's not an accomplishment to say the least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Miandad was a champion batsman. He chased down 280+ score in a WC semi-final when such targets were unthinkable and played an important inning in the WC final as well.

    Definitely an ATG when King Viv chooses you to bat for his life!
    His mental strength was incomparable. To add to that chase and his WC final innings, he also has a 50+ average in the fourth innings. Also, his average never dropped below 50 at any point in his career! That is pretty significant, whichever way you look at it.


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    By amending OP's criteria of a 'great' player and considering a player's performance across formats, the great players that Pakistan has produced are:

    Inzamam-ul-Haq, Saeed Anwar, Mohammad Yousuf, Zaheer Abbas, Saqlain Mushtaq, Shoaib Akhtar, Saeed Ajmal and arguably, Misbah ul Haq.

    The 'All-time Great' players, along with what makes them great, in a nutshell:

    1) Imran Khan (The GOAT all-rounder and Asian player).
    2) Wasim Akram (The best Asian bowler of all time, greatest ODI bowler ever).
    3) Waqar Younis (Arguably the greatest peak of all-time, bowling average of below 24 in both formats).
    4) Javed Miandad (A mental juggernaut who won Pakistan a World Cup, never had his test average fall below 50).
    5) Younis Khan (Countless great innings, a fourth innings and away average of 50 in tests, 35 hundreds and 10,000 test runs).


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  34. #194
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    I don't know how MIandad's greatness is up for debate, only on pakpassion lol

    and bilal shhh lol I'm working on a thread looking at greatest odi players by nation and then looking to put a ocmbined list with combined stats. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly would be considered great in ODIs?

    Batting average over 35?
    Fast bowling average less than 30?
    Spin average less than 35?

  35. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    From pre to post neutral umpires, Miandad's away average actually rose from 37.96 to 58.63. So your hypothesis of "terminal decline" is invalid.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?b...ields=viewtype

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?i...ields=viewtype
    It negates your own point.

    So are you saying that Miandad was exposed at home due to neutral umpires but he started doing better in away matches?

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    South Africa weren't the un-beatable top side during Dravid's time .... it was Aus. If you don't perform against the best team of your times and have so many other holes (see my earlier post ) then you cant claim that Cricketer as an ATG.
    SA had the best pace attack in the world and that too in SA was deadly. Donald averaged in 20.xx and Pollock 21.xx against all teams but Australia.

    SA was one tough place to bat for Asian batsman. Tendulkar averged 46 in SA, Sanga 36, Inzy 32, Dravid 30, and Sehwag 25.

    SA had the WL ratio of 2.85 between 1996 and 2012. So yeah, if you exclude Australia, they were unbeatable for all other teams.

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    It negates your own point.

    So are you saying that Miandad was exposed at home due to neutral umpires but he started doing better in away matches?
    If you understand the meaning of numbers, that is the only conclusion possible.

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    It negates your own point.

    So are you saying that Miandad was exposed at home due to neutral umpires but he started doing better in away matches?
    napa doesnt know what he is saying lol

  39. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleaf27 View Post
    Miandad as an ATG is a common knowledge only to the Pakistani's I fear , no one else. He may be the best batsman produced by Pakistan but that's not an accomplishment to say the least.
    50+ average in tests and 40+ in ODIs
    Won a world cup
    Was one of Wisden cricketers of the year in 1982
    Is a member of ICC Hall of Fame
    Was picked by Martin Crowe in his world XI (1970-90)
    Was picked by Viv Richards to bat for his life
    Ian Chappell called him a champion

    And yet he is an ATG only on PP just because you think so!

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    If you understand the meaning of numbers, that is the only conclusion possible.
    You have been badly exposed here by your own logic. You claim that Miandad's average fell at home due to neutral umpires at home but increased outside home.

    What does that tell you?

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    You have been badly exposed here by your own logic. You claim that Miandad's average fell at home due to neutral umpires at home but increased outside home.

    What does that tell you?
    I did not say that Miandad's average increased outside home DUE to neutral umpires.

    I only said that you can't make a case that Miandad's batting in the second period (Nov 1986 onwards) had declined in general. You claimed Miandad "had back problems and he was in terminal decline in the 90s". Does an increase in away average that rose from 37.96 to 58.63 seem like "terminal decline" to you?

    If you don't believe the 37.96 to 58.63 numbers, then you should be arguing with cricinfo rather than me.
    Last edited by Napa; 19th April 2017 at 16:37.

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I did not say that Miandad's average increased outside home DUE to neutral umpires.

    I only said that you can't make a case that Miandad's batting in the second period (Nov 1986 onwards) had declined in general. You claimed Miandad "had back problems and he was in terminal decline in the 90s". Does an increase in away average that rose from 37.96 to 58.63 seem like "terminal decline" to you?

    If you don't believe the 37.96 to 58.63 numbers, then you should be arguing with cricinfo rather than me.
    How does it even support your argument that Miandad is not an ATG?

    If neutral umpires caused his averaged to drop at home then it also caused it to increase outside home. So, you are left with 2 options:

    1. Either accept that Miandad was an ATG who was not a HTB.
    2. Umpiring standard in other countries was poor too just like in Pakistan which negatively impacted Miandad's numbers outside home.

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    How is Miandad not an ATG. Excelled in both Tests and ODIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    How is Miandad not an ATG. Excelled in both Tests and ODIs.
    You must be another of those biased Pakistanis that rate Miandad as an ATG.


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  45. #205
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    Fun fact.

    Only two batsmen have never fallen below 50.0 in their entire career. It is that tough a mark. The first is that fighter extraordinaire, the thorn in any bowling attack for long times, the feisty Javed Miandad. Miandad played 125 Tests, spread over 17 years. He never dropped below 50.0. Please stop for a moment and reflect on the achievement. Dwell on the number of Tests played and the length of time. Hats off to one great character and cricketer.

    The other is a totally different type of batsman. Coming as he does from the doughty Yorkshire stock, Sutcliffe never fell below 50.0, why let me extend it further, never fell below 60.0 in his 54-Test, 11-year career. Not a short career by any means: only looks short compared to Miandad. He built up a good average and even though he had an indifferent second half of his career, his buffer was enough to never let his career average go below 60.

  46. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    You must be another of those biased Pakistanis that rate Miandad as an ATG.
    Ya got me chief

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    How does it even support your argument that Miandad is not an ATG?

    If neutral umpires caused his averaged to drop at home then it also caused it to increase outside home. So, you are left with 2 options:

    1. Either accept that Miandad was an ATG who was not a HTB.
    2. Umpiring standard in other countries was poor too just like in Pakistan which negatively impacted Miandad's numbers outside home.
    You logic keeps jumping all over the place. Whether Miandad is an ATG or not is subjective, the discrepancy between his home and away averages pre neutral umpires, and between his and the discrepancy between his home averages pre and post neutral umpires is objective.

    Any rational assessment of the numbers leads to an inevitable conclusion that the Pakistani umpires were heavily cheating and Miandad was a major beneficiary of this cheating. This is also corroborated by players reports from multiple countries such as India, Australia and England.

    There isn't a whole lot more to be said about this. You may wish to continue arguing, but I don't really have anything more to say.

  48. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    How does it even support your argument that Miandad is not an ATG?

    If neutral umpires caused his averaged to drop at home then it also caused it to increase outside home. So, you are left with 2 options:

    1. Either accept that Miandad was an ATG who was not a HTB.
    2. Umpiring standard in other countries was poor too just like in Pakistan which negatively impacted Miandad's numbers outside home.
    You logic keeps jumping all over the place. Whether Miandad is an ATG or not is subjective, the discrepancy between his home and away averages pre neutral umpires, and the discrepancy between his home averages pre and post neutral umpires is objective.

    Miandad was obviously a good batsman, but one who probably would have ended up with an average of 40 rather than 50 without the help of friendly home umpires.

    Any rational assessment of the numbers leads to an inevitable conclusion that the Pakistani umpires were heavily cheating and Miandad was a major beneficiary of this cheating. This is also corroborated by players reports from multiple countries such as India, Australia and England.

    There isn't a whole lot more to be said about this. You may wish to continue arguing, but I don't really have anything more to say.
    Last edited by Napa; 20th April 2017 at 04:13.

  49. #209
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    Its clear that Miandad is an ATG. IMHO, its not even open for discussion.

    But I would not add Younis Khan as ATG. IMHO, he is a Pakistani great, but falls short of becoming an ATG.

  50. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    50+ average in tests and 40+ in ODIs
    Won a world cup
    Was one of Wisden cricketers of the year in 1982
    Is a member of ICC Hall of Fame
    Was picked by Martin Crowe in his world XI (1970-90)
    Was picked by Viv Richards to bat for his life
    Ian Chappell called him a champion

    And yet he is an ATG only on PP just because you think so!
    Ricky Ponting / Gavaskar / Wasim have called Kohli a Champion . Is he an ATG ?
    Was one of the Wisden cricketers in 1982 - Are all of them considered an ATG ?
    Picked by Martin Crowe in his world 11 - Does not have a place in ICC All time 11 , Doesn't have a place in Wisden's all time test 11 . So who says which 11 is better than the other ?

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    SA had the best pace attack in the world and that too in SA was deadly. Donald averaged in 20.xx and Pollock 21.xx against all teams but Australia.

    SA was one tough place to bat for Asian batsman. Tendulkar averged 46 in SA, Sanga 36, Inzy 32, Dravid 30, and Sehwag 25.

    SA had the WL ratio of 2.85 between 1996 and 2012. So yeah, if you exclude Australia, they were unbeatable for all other teams.
    And thats the point .... you just simply cannot ignore Aus were the best. To be an ATG you have to have done well against the best team (and there are few other things that I listed ealier). Also Dravid is not a ATG. He is a tier below Tendulkar who is an ATG.


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    Both Miandad and Dravid are ATGs, there isn't much to argue about it.

    Some of you don't realize that it is not easy to bat in a weaker batting line up. When you come in to bat at 20/3 which would soon become 55/5 while you are still at the crease, against a top bowling attack with rest of the batsmen showing no heart to fight out, it is extremely onerous task for your star batsman to motivate himself. Those used to be the scores when Miandad would bat.

    Just to get the idea, Tendulkar averages 80+ while coming at the crease at 150+/2, 61 for 100-149/2, 50 for 76-95/2, 45 for a score lesser than 75.

    Miandad has scored some important 50s against WI when others have barely contributed. Moreover, he helped us win and draw a test in 88 series with his back to back centuries. He had little to prove thereafter.
    Last edited by Stallion__; 20th April 2017 at 13:36.

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post
    Both Miandad and Dravid are ATGs, there isn't much to argue about it.

    Some of you don't realize that it is not easy to bat in a weaker batting line up. When you come in to bat at 20/3 which would soon become 55/5 while you are still at the crease, against a top bowling attack with rest of the batsmen showing no heart to fight out, it is extremely onerous task for your star batsman to motivate himself. Those used to be the scores when Miandad would bat.

    Just to get the idea, Tendulkar averages 80+ while coming at the crease at 150+/2, 61 for 100-149/2, 50 for 76-95/2, 45 for a score lesser than 75.

    Miandad has scored some important 50s against WI when others have barely contributed. Moreover, he helped us win and draw a test in 88 series with his back to back centuries. He had little to prove thereafter.
    If middle order is coming early then there is good chance that it's a bowler friendly pitch and then it shouldn't be a surprise to see middle order also scoring less. Sure there will be exceptions, but I am talking about average case.

    Miandad and Dravid, both are ATG for me. Yah, ATG is subjective so no issue with anyone excluding many players and keeping ATG club fairly small. But you can't have too many batsmen above these two and put them in ATG category.


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  54. #214
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    Australia and West Indies.


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  55. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    If middle order is coming early then there is good chance that it's a bowler friendly pitch and then it shouldn't be a surprise to see middle order also scoring less. Sure there will be exceptions, but I am talking about average case.
    Early wickets generally mean that conditions are difficult for batting which used to be the case against WI bowling attack of 80s. Specifically, it could be due to bowler friendly pitch, high class bowling or combination of both. Tendulkar and Miandad used to bat at same number so it gives a fair idea.

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by bleaf27 View Post
    Ricky Ponting / Gavaskar / Wasim have called Kohli a Champion . Is he an ATG ?
    Was one of the Wisden cricketers in 1982 - Are all of them considered an ATG ?
    Picked by Martin Crowe in his world 11 - Does not have a place in ICC All time 11 , Doesn't have a place in Wisden's all time test 11 . So who says which 11 is better than the other ?
    Kohli is an ATG in LOs format and he will end up as an ATG in tests too. He is just too good a batsman to not be able to do it. Already has whopping averages in Australia and SA. Started performing in India and will do better in England next time.

    Don't look at these things in isolation. When you combine his stats in all formats, world cup win, praises by other cricketers, that certainly makes a case for him to be an ATG.

    Wisden XI does not have Gavaskar and McGrath. Only a fool will deny that they are ATGs just because they were not part of Wisden XI.

  57. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And thats the point .... you just simply cannot ignore Aus were the best. To be an ATG you have to have done well against the best team (and there are few other things that I listed ealier). Also Dravid is not a ATG. He is a tier below Tendulkar who is an ATG.
    Does not work this way. India was the top team few years ago but there were at least 3 teams with better bowling line-ups. Scoring against India did not hold as much weight as scoring against let's say England with a far superior bowling attack.

    SA wipes the floor with any other team when it comes to pace attack and that includes Australia too.

    Which test bowler in Australia (other than McGrath) has been comparable to Donald, Pollock, and Steyn? Even, 2nd fiddles like Philander, Ntini, etc. were better than some top fast bowlers of other teams.

  58. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You logic keeps jumping all over the place. Whether Miandad is an ATG or not is subjective, the discrepancy between his home and away averages pre neutral umpires, and the discrepancy between his home averages pre and post neutral umpires is objective.

    Miandad was obviously a good batsman, but one who probably would have ended up with an average of 40 rather than 50 without the help of friendly home umpires.

    Any rational assessment of the numbers leads to an inevitable conclusion that the Pakistani umpires were heavily cheating and Miandad was a major beneficiary of this cheating. This is also corroborated by players reports from multiple countries such as India, Australia and England.

    There isn't a whole lot more to be said about this. You may wish to continue arguing, but I don't really have anything more to say.
    Everybody knows why you brought up this whole LBW thing in the first place. Whether umpires helped Miandad at home or not, he is still an ATG because he fulfills almost all of the criteria for an ATG.

    And this is your delusion that he would average 40 rather than 50 and you are free to live in it.

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Does not work this way. India was the top team few years ago but there were at least 3 teams with better bowling line-ups. Scoring against India did not hold as much weight as scoring against let's say England with a far superior bowling attack.

    Sorry to pr!ck your green bubble but the reality is quite different. For now I will quote you Steve Waugh's desire to win Tests in India which he claimed as the last frontier. Still lost a Test Series against a Indian side with Kumble and Srinath not playing in that series (2001)

    SA wipes the floor with any other team when it comes to pace attack and that includes Australia too.

    Which test bowler in Australia (other than McGrath) has been comparable to Donald, Pollock, and Steyn? Even, 2nd fiddles like Philander, Ntini, etc. were better than some top fast bowlers of other teams.
    Brett Lee, Gillespie, Fleming , Kasprowicz, MacGill were all good bowlers then there was a bloke called SK Warne. Anyone who understands cricket will let you know how hard it is to win in Aus ... yes SA comes next but Miandad never played against them not sure what your point is (other than trying to prove Dravid is not a ATG) ?


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  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Sorry to pr!ck your green bubble but the reality is quite different. For now I will quote you Steve Waugh's desire to win Tests in India which he claimed as the last frontier. Still lost a Test Series against a Indian side with Kumble and Srinath not playing in that series (2001)



    Brett Lee, Gillespie, Fleming , Kasprowicz, MacGill were all good bowlers then there was a bloke called SK Warne. Anyone who understands cricket will let you know how hard it is to win in Aus ... yes SA comes next but Miandad never played against them not sure what your point is (other than trying to prove Dravid is not a ATG) ?
    You are mixing up overall team strength with bowling attack strength. India had a tremendous batting line up but did not have a single ATG bowler. Do you seriously think scoring against India was as hard as scoring against Australia, England, SA, and Pakistan?

    Australia was a better team because of their superior batting line up and GOAT wicket keeper batsman. Australian bowling was all about McGrath and Warne. The rest were good but nowhere near test greats. SA has always fielded a better pace attack than anyone else bar West Indies of the 80s and early 90s. This is the main reason, SA has been able to win so many test matches without having a single decent spinner.

  61. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    You are mixing up overall team strength with bowling attack strength. India had a tremendous batting line up but did not have a single ATG bowler. Do you seriously think scoring against India was as hard as scoring against Australia, England, SA, and Pakistan?
    At home yes. Away not so much. But success in India is a big criteria just like how success in Aus/Eng is for determining greatness.

    Australia was a better team because of their superior batting line up and GOAT wicket keeper batsman. Australian bowling was all about McGrath and Warne. The rest were good but nowhere near test greats. SA has always fielded a better pace attack than anyone else bar West Indies of the 80s and early 90s. This is the main reason, SA has been able to win so many test matches without having a single decent spinner.
    Again not sure how this matters in this discussion (which is about Miandad ) even if we pretend you are right about fast bowlers. How is this relevant ?


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    1. Aus
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