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20th April 2017, 16:31 #1
Local Club Regular
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Which nation has produced the most ODI greats?
Following on from the test great thread, I thought I'd do one for ODIs. The criteria is as follows:
A batting average of 35 or more and SR of 70 or more
A fast bowling average of 27 or less and a SR of 40 or less
A spin bowling average of 35 or less and a SR of 50 or less
The cut off is 70 ODIs, so as to exclude anyone with very short careers.
This is a slightly more leniant criteria than for tests, as ODI cricket often has great players who don't necessarily have titanic numbers, hence the reason for including strike rates.
Remember, this is an impact format of the game and should be treated as thus numerically.
As usual, no google, no cricinfo, put forward your guesses.
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20th April 2017, 16:52 #2
Considering this is guesses, I think its gotta be tight between India, Pakistan and Australia.
While Pakistan have been pretty good in Tests, they've had some great LOI cricketers. All rounders like Razzaq, Afridi, IK. Fast bowlers like Shoaib, Waqar Younis and Wasim. Great spinners too.
I think it should be;
- Aus
- Pak
- India
- West Indies
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20th April 2017, 16:52 #3
Australia and then India
This is my list without checking stats.
Australia:
Ponting
Bevan
Jones
Gilchrist
McGrath
Warne
Lee
Starc
India:
Tendulkar
Dhoni
Ganguly
Kohli
Kapil
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20th April 2017, 16:56 #4
Pak has a really good shot at this with:
IK
Wasim
Waqar
Razzaq
Saeed Anwar
Saqlain Mushtaq
Mushy
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20th April 2017, 18:30 #5
Local Club Regular
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Good stuff guys. Glad none of you have looked up the official data. Keep it coming.
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20th April 2017, 18:43 #6
T20I Star
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AND, I know, you have categorically checked official stats, hence your filter & lost interest from there on.
No all-rounder category & a cut-off of average 27 for Fast bowlers means, someone Kapil Dev Ramlal Nikhanj doesn't make it, while Mian Malik does.
Good job indeed.
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20th April 2017, 18:53 #7
Tape Ball Regular
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Odi ATG's from India
SRT
Dhoni
Kapil
Kohli
From Pakistan,
Imran
Wasim
Waqar
Inzamam
Saqlain
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20th April 2017, 20:11 #8
Add Afridi there. 7000 runs at a SR over 100 and 400 wickets is pretty great. Of course he's not an ATG player but definitely a great one and comparable to Kapil Dev in this format of the game.
Saeed Ajmal as well. The best ODI spinner after Saqlain, Murali and Warne. Not sure about Razzaq and Mushy from your list but criminal to not include Inzamam.
Pak's greats:
1) Anwar
2) Inzamam
3) Miandad (not a SR of 70 but he could definitely play at that level if he wanted).
4) Afridi
5) Ajmal
6) Akhtar
7) Mushy (arguable)
Pak's ODI ATGs:
1) Imran
2) Wasim
3) Waqar
4) Saqlain
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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20th April 2017, 20:12 #9
Australia.
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20th April 2017, 20:12 #10
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20th April 2017, 20:24 #11
Wanted to add Lala but I don't think he would be mutually considered to be a great player by fans from other countries. Dont get me wrong, I love him but an avg or 22 and 400 wickets in 400 matches isn't exactly the greatest. Of course, he's an ATG match winner and maybe GOAT entertainer but not sure about player.
As for Ajmal - same with him. Really wanted to include him too but a lot of fans don't think his wickets hold any weight given he "chucked".
Can't believe I forgot Inzi tho. Surely ATG in ODIs.
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20th April 2017, 21:05 #12
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20th April 2017, 21:14 #13
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20th April 2017, 21:20 #14
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20th April 2017, 22:03 #15
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Australia.
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20th April 2017, 22:26 #16
Indian batsman have crazy stats, they rack up so many runs so I was inclined to mention India alongside Pak and Aus who have all produced many ODI greats. Aus for me has the most ODI greats.
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20th April 2017, 22:28 #17
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20th April 2017, 22:30 #18
Australia then Pakistan.
India doesn't have one great ODI bowler lmao. That's half of the sport.
Kuch to log kahenge
Logon ka kaam hai kehna
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20th April 2017, 22:30 #19
Don't agree with the cutoff. Someone like Miandad won't make it if we go by those stats
Kuch to log kahenge
Logon ka kaam hai kehna
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20th April 2017, 22:58 #20
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I am not in to this average thing and all that. From the top of my head it will have to be Australia. This is why they have won the most world cup's. Pak and India are probably neck and neck, it's to close to call here.
PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.
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20th April 2017, 23:36 #21
Agree with @MMHS. Another loaded thread that is easy to look through, but credit goes to OP for attempting to outsmart folks with thousands of posts and a bit of cricketing knowledge. Wasn't going to work though. Just like the Test thread, the whole premise of this thread and the criteria laid is completely rubbish.
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21st April 2017, 00:35 #22
WI, Aus and India. Taken together they have won 9-10 WCs.
Last edited by Buffet; 21st April 2017 at 00:37.
"If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions
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21st April 2017, 02:03 #23
ODI All-time greats of different countries:
Australia:
1) Ponting
2) Bevan
3) McGrath
4) Warne
5) Starc (potential)
6) Smith (potential)
England:
None.
India:
1) Tendulker
2) Dhoni
3) Kohli (potential)
New Zealand:
1) Richard Hadlee
2) Boult (potential)
South Africa:
1) AB de Villiers
2) Allan Donald
3) Hashim Amla (potential)
4) Imran Tahir (potential)
5) De Kock (potential)
Sri Lanka:
1) Muralitharan
West Indies:
1) Richards
2) Garner
3) Holding
Probably missed a few but these are off the top of my head.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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21st April 2017, 02:07 #24
The fact that people are even discussing whether Afridi is a Pakistani great is just...
Batting average of 24
Bowling averag of 35
What exactly about this is legendary?
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21st April 2017, 02:16 #25
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Australia
WI/India
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21st April 2017, 02:58 #26
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SRT - 18k runs at avg of 44
Ganguly - 11k runs at avg of 42
Dravid - 10k runs at avg of 39
Kohli - 7500 runs at 50
Dhoni - 8000 runs at 50
Yuvraj - 8000 runs at 37 and SR 87
Azhar - more than 9000 runs
Kapil - 3700 runs and 250 wickets
Agarkar 288 wickets at 27, SR of 32
Srinath 300 wickets at 28
Indian greats - pick ATG from the list
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21st April 2017, 04:55 #27
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Quite simply, Kapil's innings of 175 when India were down to 17/5, followed by India going all the way and winning its first WC (when at the start of the tournament the bookies had the at 50:1) makes him an ATG of ATGs.
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21st April 2017, 06:08 #28
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21st April 2017, 06:22 #29
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Firstly, you don't just judge players by stats. But even if you conduct this exercise, the criteria the OP has put on is ridiculous.
The averages of some one playing in the 2010s cannot be compared to someone who played cricket in the 80s and 90s. The SR has also changed significantly.
Just an example for batting - Hashim Amla averages 50 with 89 SR, whereas Sachin averages 44 with a SR of 86. Sachin is clearly an ATG and Amla is not (some might argue he is, but its not as clear cut. he could on the cusp).
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21st April 2017, 06:28 #30
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off the top of my head
Australia: Ponting, Gilchrist, Hayden, Mcgrath, Bevan, Lee, Jones, Waugh brothers, Hussey, Smith and Warne.
S.Africa: Smith, Kallis, DeVilliers, Amla, Donald, Pollock, Boucher, Ntini, KP
Pakistan: Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Anwer, Miandad, Imran, Inzamam, Yousuf, Afridi, Ajmal
India: Sachin, Ganguly, Dravid, Sehwag, Azhar, Kohli, Dhoni, Kapil
W.I : Lara, Richards, Haynes, Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall,SL Gayle
SL: DeSilva, J'suriya, Mahela, Sangakarra, Vaas, Murali, Dilshan
NZ: Crowe, Hadlee, Vettori, Cairns, Taylor
Eng: errrrrr.....
Bang: Shakib
Again, just off the top of my head.
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21st April 2017, 06:33 #31
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Stats alone are certainly not enough to adjudge someone as being an ATG but they do matter. The criteria is pretty fair imo, as averages and SRs were not as high in the before the 2000s, similarly bowling averages and economy rates have gone down so the cutoff needs to be a bit lenient there. Do think Amla is an ATG. Averaging 50 over a significant period of time, even in today's game is no mean achievement.
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21st April 2017, 06:43 #32
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Fair enough. But lot of people, including me will not agree with this. Its much easier to average 50 with a SR around 90 when the norm is a 300+ score. Whereas in 90s, even a 250 was generally a winning score. Again, as I said, its not as clear cut. IMHO, Amla is on par with batsmen such as Ganguly.
Also, on the general cut off, one cannot just make averages lenient. Test cricket, even though has changed over the last 2 decades, has not had as significant a change as ODIs. So, one criteria fits all will not work here.
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21st April 2017, 06:49 #33
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Decent list but,
Pak - Remove Ajmal and Yousuf. Not sure if Afridi fits there either. Add Zaheer Abbas. Probably Even Shoaib Akhtar.
India - Not sure about Sehwag. Yuvraj could be added there due to his exploits in WC.
Eng - KP
SA - I would add Cronje and Rhodes there. Remove Amla.
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21st April 2017, 06:49 #34
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21st April 2017, 07:04 #35
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21st April 2017, 07:09 #36
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21st April 2017, 07:19 #37
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I listed Ajmal without considering the controversy surrounding his action. On numbers alone he can be considered good enough to qualify for Pakistan's ATG list given his contribution during the years that he played. But a 50/50 choice. Similarly thought about excluding Afridi but his batting and bowling should not be viewed in isolation. As a package, he wasn't too bad and how many people have 400 wickets? I agree that averages do matter but sometimes its also about absolute numbers and longevity. Why is it difficult to find an English ODI great? Simply because very few of them played for a long period of time. Again a 50/50 choice and can be excluded. Zaheer Abbas in ODIs? Errr, don't know about that. But yes missed Akhtar, deserves to be included, in place of Ajmal.
Cronje over Amla?
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21st April 2017, 09:15 #38
Australia
West Indies
Pakistan
India
South Africa
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21st April 2017, 11:12 #39
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21st April 2017, 11:20 #40
Australia.
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21st April 2017, 11:24 #41
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21st April 2017, 11:28 #42
First Class Player
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21st April 2017, 11:31 #43
Oh my. Which legendary team faced the full wrath of Kapil Dev that day? Australia? England? Pakistan?
Zimbabwe. Oh, nevermind. Kapil Dev is not an ATG. He is a great ODI player but he wasn't consistently great and therefore comparable to Afridi, who himself is a great ODI player but no where near ATG level.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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21st April 2017, 11:31 #44
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21st April 2017, 11:33 #45
First Class Player
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21st April 2017, 11:35 #46
Don't forget the league match of 2015. The only WC defeat that was significant was the defeat in the semi-finals of the 2011 WC. That was the only defeat that led to us missing out for a WC for the taking and led to India winning it instead.
All the others were just like any other loss to India because they had no impact on either team's WC hopes. The fact that India did not win a single WC despite these five wins tells you all you need to know.
Indians do hype them up to mask the embarrassing overall W/L record of the two countries though. Or the fact that Pakistan has won more ODI games despite playing a much fewer number of matches.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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21st April 2017, 11:36 #47
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21st April 2017, 11:39 #48
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21st April 2017, 11:57 #49
First Class Player
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21st April 2017, 12:12 #50
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Australia- Ponting, Gilchrist, Bevan, Mark Waugh, Warne, Lee, Mcgrath
Pakistan- Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Akhtar, Yousuf, Anwar
India- Tendulkar, Dhoni, Yuvraj, Kohli, Ganguly, Kapil
Sri Lanka- Jayasuriya, Sangakkara, Vaas, Muralitharan, Dilshan, Malinga
West Indies- Richard, Lara, Gayle, Ambrose
New Zealand- Hadlee
England- ...
Bangladesh- Shakib
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21st April 2017, 14:07 #51
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21st April 2017, 14:18 #52
Exactly. I'd rather lose another WC match to India as long as we beat everyone else and win the cup. India are welcome to beat him and then choke against Australia when it really matters.
It was a victory for an underdog team who punched well above their weights. India were nowhere near the quality of the West Indies at that time.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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21st April 2017, 14:31 #53
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21st April 2017, 16:07 #54
First Class Player
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The hallmark of a truly great player is that he will on the field, make a decisive contribution one way or the other.
http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/k...ichards-505321
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21st April 2017, 21:47 #55
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21st April 2017, 22:21 #56
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21st April 2017, 22:57 #57
Australia.
Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n
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22nd April 2017, 01:08 #58
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22nd April 2017, 03:15 #59
Aust have the most and too many than I can be bothered trying to list
The others;
WI - Richards, Garner, Lara, Ambrose
SL - De Silva, Murali, Vaas & Jayasuriya
Pakistan - Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain
India - Tendulkar, Dev, Dhoni
South Africa - Pollock, AB deV, Donald & Kallis
New Zealand - Hadlee, Bond, Vettori, Cairns
England - KP & Flintoff
Bang - Shakib
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22nd April 2017, 14:43 #60
Australia.
5 times World Champion , 7 times finalist.
Need we say more ?
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22nd April 2017, 15:24 #61
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Afridi liked few others was possessed of a paradoxical combination of longevity and lack of development. Many runs and wickets yet all at a less than impressive average, and not consistently enough to be seen as a force. One counted on Afridi in the way that one counts on a full house in poker. It was more or less downhill all the way after that first electrifying 100. He did help Pakistan to a WC, but it was in T20 not ODI. On the basis of his bowling alone, however I'd peg him as a T20 ATG.
Aus
Ponting
McGrath
Warne
Gilchrist
Slater
Lee
Hussey
Waugh
Hayden (Far better than Inzi)
Starc
India
SRT
Ganguly
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil
Yuvraj (Borderline, but was instrumental in WC victory)
SA
Pollock
Steyn
Donald
Amla
ABDV
Kallis
Klusener (Far superior to Razzaq, who is no ATG by world standards)
Boucher
Tahir
Pak
Wasim
Waqar
Imran
Saqlain
Ajmal
Inzi (A Pakistani great, and instrumental in WC, but)
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22nd April 2017, 15:27 #62
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22nd April 2017, 15:52 #63
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22nd April 2017, 15:52 #64
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22nd April 2017, 16:03 #65
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So which World Cup was won by Pakistan in the rest of the Bilateral matches (Total 121 Matches) between the 2 teams ?
Indians do hype them up to mask the embarrassing overall W/L record of the two countries though. Or the fact that Pakistan has won more ODI games despite playing a much fewer number of matches.
Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata
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22nd April 2017, 16:50 #66
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22nd April 2017, 22:38 #67
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22nd April 2017, 22:44 #68
A catch, no matter how good it was, does not excuse Kapil failing in that final. He isn't an ATG all-rounder but merely a great one.
Dravid was a mediocre ODI player, not any better than Younis Khan was for Pakistan. Sehwag probably won't make an India all-time XI and was pretty overrated, if I'm being honest. Surprised not to see Srinath in the India list but a good one by @New Yorker.
Ajmal was the best ODI bowler in the world for a period of three years and has performed everywhere, possessing an average of below 23. Imran Khan has very good numbers and was instrumental in Pakistan winning the '92 WC. He's an ATG in the ODI format.
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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23rd April 2017, 00:56 #69
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Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata
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23rd April 2017, 02:23 #70
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Not better than Younis Khan when Dravid's numbers are comparable to Inzi and not YK.
Dravid scored 10889 runs at avg of 39 and SR of 71 in 344 matches.
Inzi scored 11739 runs at avg of 39 and SR of 74 in 378 matches.
YK scored 7249 runs at avg of 31 and SR of 75. How is he comparable to YK and not Inzi? Inzi had slightly better SR. But there isn't much difference. Dravid was consistent match winner for India in ODIs. Sehwag has contributed more for Indian ODI team than Ajmal has done for Pakistani team.
Dravid started his ODI career in 1996 and was consistently close to 650-750 ranking points in ODIs from 99-2007, while Inzi hit 800 once in early 95 and after that he was inconsistent with 600-750 points range.
YK never 500 ranking points. Dravid was not YK of Indian team.
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23rd April 2017, 03:05 #71
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Aus, WI and India. The sheer amount of tournaments they won, no other team comes close to them. The statistical analysis in meaningless games is just useless. You need to perform in big tournaments.
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23rd April 2017, 03:18 #72
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23rd April 2017, 03:33 #73
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله
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23rd April 2017, 03:41 #74
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23rd April 2017, 04:38 #75
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23rd April 2017, 06:18 #76
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23rd April 2017, 07:37 #77
I would reckon
Oz
WI
Ind
Pak
SA
SL
NZ
Eng
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23rd April 2017, 11:01 #78
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Sure he didn't have that one off type of inning which Inzi played in 92 WC, but apart from that they had very similar batting performances and impact on their teams.
Ajmal lied about his injury to get leverage from ICC. Without that lie, he wouldn't have been half good as he is thought to be. He isn't even a Pakistani great, let alone be an ATG. Because of him, genuine bowler like Yasir Shah couldn't get into the test team.
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23rd April 2017, 11:37 #79
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Kapil was an ATG no doubt. Dont know why people discussing these things so much. So was Miandad too. No questions on these two.
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23rd April 2017, 12:25 #80
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