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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Based on what? Where were his leadership skills when you were brutally whitewashed by a team like Srilanka at your own home?
    I hate it to say it man but if you're gonna bring up random matches then CT Final will be brought up.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Based on what? Where were his leadership skills when you were brutally whitewashed by a team like Srilanka at your own home?
    Is that it?

    Is that your only point?

    To fault a person in their first ever Test series without the decade and a half long mainstay of their middle-order? Not to mention an injured and novice attack?

    This is not India where the pitches are doctored to spin square on Day 1 and touring teams look like young folks on rollerblades. It was in the UAE which the PCB have no control over concerning pitches and a certain Herath who muddled out your team for 112 not too long ago, which by the way is still two less than what Pakistan managed with a depleted batting lineup.

  3. #163
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    Also, “brutally whitewashed”?

    The margin of victory was 21 and 68 runs.

  4. #164
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    Who is the better captain is debatable,

    one thing is for sure though Kohli's game did not deteriorate with captain responsibilities. Sarfraz on the other hand is a shadow of the player he was before he was captain.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Also, “brutally whitewashed”?

    The margin of victory was 21 and 68 runs.
    2-0 is still 2-0.And even Hardik Pandya smoked the same Herath to smithereens. Hardik Sobers PANDYA.lol.
    And then got whitewashed again in NewZealand by 5-0.Has he ever beaten a non-minnow anywhere in ODI or Test series? Not even good enough good to tie the shoeleaces of Kohli.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Is that it?

    Is that your only point?

    To fault a person in their first ever Test series without the decade and a half long mainstay of their middle-order? Not to mention an injured and novice attack?

    This is not India where the pitches are doctored to spin square on Day 1 and touring teams look like young folks on rollerblades. It was in the UAE which the PCB have no control over concerning pitches and a certain Herath who muddled out your team for 112 not too long ago, which by the way is still two less than what Pakistan managed with a depleted batting lineup.
    Lol. Keep on coming up with excuses.We smoked same team by 3-0 at their own home just few weeks ago before your team got brutalized.
    Beat at least one non-minnow in an ODI series or Test series and then we will talk whether he is good enough to stand in the same room as Kohli.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    2-0 is still 2-0.And even Hardik Pandya smoked the same Herath to smithereens. Hardik Sobers PANDYA.lol.
    And then got whitewashed again in NewZealand by 5-0.Has he ever beaten a non-minnow anywhere in ODI or Test series? Not even good enough good to tie the shoeleaces of Kohli.
    Umm Herath did not even play that game. SL were playing legends Sandakan and Pushpakumara LOL.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    I hate it to say it man but if you're gonna bring up random matches then CT Final will be brought up.
    You can bring up CT final you want.I can bring up so many things.Like no ODI or Test series win against a non-minnow team anywhere in the world

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    You can bring up CT final you want.I can bring up so many things.Like no ODI or Test series win against a non-minnow team anywhere in the world
    And how many does Kohli have? Don't mention those flukes on Indian pitches please.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    Umm Herath did not even play that game. SL were playing legends Sandakan and Pushpakumara LOL.
    Sure he played and went close to 4 runs per over with no wickets.
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-sl-v-ind-2017

    Keep coming up with better excuses next time.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    And how many does Kohli have? Don't mention those flukes on Indian pitches please.
    Just Beat SA at their own home by 5-1.
    Beat Australia by 4-1,Beat Nz by 2-1, and ENgland by 2-1.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Sure he played and went close to 4 runs per over with no wickets.
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...-sl-v-ind-2017

    Keep coming up with better excuses next time.
    Umm you said Pandya smashed to smithereens. 50 runs is nothing in Tests lol.

    The last match Pakistan played against Herath he went at 3.7. You can check I'm not lying.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Just Beat SA at their own home by 5-1.
    Beat Australia by 4-1,Beat Nz by 2-1, and ENgland by 2-1.
    And Sarfraz is yet to vs any of them in a home series as of yet.

    In fact he's only played NZ away and that was with an injured squad with no practice.

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    And Sarfraz is yet to vs any of them in a home series as of yet.

    In fact he's only played NZ away and that was with an injured squad with no practice.
    Love your excuses,man.keep them coming.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    Umm you said Pandya smashed to smithereens. 50 runs is nothing in Tests lol.

    The last match Pakistan played against Herath he went at 3.7. You can check I'm not lying.
    50 runs at 102 S/R at your opponents home is pretty good in Test cricket. And in the last Test against You ,Herath took 5 wickets at your own home whereas against us he could only take one at his own home. That is the difference.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    2-0 is still 2-0.And even Hardik Pandya smoked the same Herath to smithereens. Hardik Sobers PANDYA.lol.
    And then got whitewashed again in NewZealand by 5-0.Has he ever beaten a non-minnow anywhere in ODI or Test series? Not even good enough good to tie the shoeleaces of Kohli.
    No.

    You specifically stated "brutally whitewashed' which would mean something along the lines of India in England 2011 where the lowest margin of defeat was 196 runs. That is still not even half of 68+21= 89 runs.

    Herath was one of the best spinners in world cricket when we toured him last time just a month before you guys did in 2015. We beat him by the same margin of 2-1 that you did except against us he took three wickets and against you, just a month later, took fifteen. Now in 2017, you guys absolutely smashed SL and they beat us 2-0, so full credit to you. However, as far as the argument of Hardik "Sobers" Pandya rendering Herath ineffective goes, he has been woefully out-of-form. So much so that he took twenty-three wickets against notoriously poor spin-playing sides of WI, SA, and BD. Hardik has been exposed for the brainless IPL hack he is with the recent tours and continues to prove ineffective with the ball as well. Worrying more about his "swag" than the position of the team.

    He has played only four ODI series to date winning three and losing one with an overall record of 13-5. 0-5 in NZ is bad but not as bad as IND's 0-4-1 with a squad of healthy and experienced bowlers/batsmen.

    As far as the "not fit to tie shoelaces" part, the overall record between Kohli and Sarfraz is 1-1. With their last meeting resulting in the single biggest margin of victory in an ICC tournament Final ever; so I suggest waiting until the rubber match(s) before calling one unfit to tie the others' shoelaces.
    Last edited by ManFan; 4th August 2018 at 23:28.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Love your excuses,man.keep them coming.
    So riddle me this.

    What is the excuse of India for losing their past two series to England and for Pakistan drawing theirs?

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Lol. Keep on coming up with excuses.We smoked same team by 3-0 at their own home just few weeks ago before your team got brutalized.
    Beat at least one non-minnow in an ODI series or Test series and then we will talk whether he is good enough to stand in the same room as Kohli.
    Excuses?

    Pune 2017 saw Steve O' Keefe pick up twelve wickets for seventy runs!

    Steve O' Keefe!

    If Nagpur 2015 and the entire Border-Gavaskar 2017-2018 series does not show to you the blatant spin-friendly pitches produced in India than I don't know what will.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    No.

    You specifically stated "brutally whitewashed' which would mean something along the lines of India in England 2011 where the lowest margin of defeat was 196 runs. That is still not even half of 68+21= 89 runs.

    Herath was one of the best spinners in world cricket when we toured him last time just a month before you guys did in 2015. We beat him by the same margin of 2-1 that you did except against us he took three wickets and against you, just a month later, took fifteen. Now in 2017, you guys absolutely smashed SL and they beat us 2-0, so full credit to you. However, as far as the argument of Hardik "Sobers" Pandya rendering Herath ineffective goes, he has been woefully out-of-form. So much so that he took twenty-three wickets against notoriously poor spin-playing sides of WI, SA, and BD. Hardik has been exposed for the brainless IPL hack he is with the recent tours and continues to prove ineffective with the ball as well. Worrying more about his "swag" than the position of the team.

    He has played only four ODI series to date winning three and losing one with an overall record of 13-5. 0-5 in NZ is bad but not as bad as IND's 0-4-1 with a squad of healthy and experienced bowlers/batsmen.

    As far as the "not fit to tie shoelaces" part, the overall record between Kohli and Sarfraz is 1-1. With their last meeting resulting in the single biggest margin of victory in an ICC tournament Final ever; so I suggest waiting until the rubber match(s) before calling one unfit to tie the others' shoelaces.
    Yes, Herath magically recovered his form against Pakistan in UAE in few months after his mauling at his own home. And in some magical world, 5-0 is better than 4-1.Jesus, You guys are so full of excuses for absolute pathetic performances.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    So riddle me this.

    What is the excuse of India for losing their past two series to England and for Pakistan drawing theirs?
    We lost because we played pathetically (See, I don't come up with excuses ). And you won the tests because you played well.
    But that has nothing to do with current discussion.

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Yes, Herath magically recovered his form against Pakistan in UAE in few months after his mauling at his own home. And in some magical world, 5-0 is better than 4-1.Jesus, You guys are so full of excuses for absolute pathetic performances.
    Says the guy who doesn't bother to read the rest of the post.

    He has taken twenty-three wickets in eight Test matches. It shows our inability to play against him rather than his current prowess.

    As far as the 0-4-1 statement, neither side managed a win in NZ. So going by your other post of a whitewash is a whitewash, I guess their performances are equal.

    At least we gained something out of that tour beating the #1 Ranked team in their den while you got smoked by B-Mac on his way to a triple century. :YK :YK :YK

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    50 runs at 102 S/R at your opponents home is pretty good in Test cricket. And in the last Test against You ,Herath took 5 wickets at your own home whereas against us he could only take one at his own home. That is the difference.
    Yes and Sohail Khan smashed Aussie bowlers for 70 runs at 110 SR in Boxing Day Test at MCG.

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    We lost because we played pathetically (See, I don't come up with excuses ). And you won the tests because you played well.
    But that has nothing to do with current discussion.
    Yes it does because you fail to take into account the reasons for poor showings.

    The England tours for you took place in easy, flat, dry conditions with experienced batsmen and bowlers.

    There can be no excuse for your failures.

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Says the guy who doesn't bother to read the rest of the post.

    He has taken twenty-three wickets in eight Test matches. It shows our inability to play against him rather than his current prowess.

    As far as the 0-4-1 statement, neither side managed a win in NZ. So going by your other post of a whitewash is a whitewash, I guess their performances are equal.

    At least we gained something out of that tour beating the #1 Ranked team in their den while you got smoked by B-Mac on his way to a triple century. :YK :YK :YK
    First of all the 4-0 , debacle was under Dhoni, not Kohli. And at least we could chase 319 and tioe one match. So definitely 4-1-0 is better than 5-0 whitewash.
    There is nothing worse in this world than getting whitewashed by a team like Srilanka at your own home.
    Just like I said earlier, beat some non-minnow in ODI series or Test series at least at your own home first ans then we can compare against Kohli.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Yes it does because you fail to take into account the reasons for poor showings.

    The England tours for you took place in easy, flat, dry conditions with experienced batsmen and bowlers.

    There can be no excuse for your failures.
    Lol.There is no excuse for any failure other than you are simply not good enough. We are sensible enough to acknowledge that but you are even finding excuses out of thin air for home whitewash (might be the first for any Pakistan captain) against a pathetic team like Srilanka.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    First of all the 4-0 , debacle was under Dhoni, not Kohli. And at least we could chase 319 and tioe one match. So definitely 4-1-0 is better than 5-0 whitewash.
    There is nothing worse in this world than getting whitewashed by a team like Srilanka at your own home.
    Just like I said earlier, beat some non-minnow in ODI series or Test series at least at your own home first ans then we can compare against Kohli.
    Which ever way you try and spin it (currently by going against your own word of a whitewash is a whitewash no matter the margin and directing it towards Dhoni instead of Kohli), Sarfraz and Kohli is not a comparison as far as CAPTAINCY is concerned.

    I'll end with this: one has an ICC trophy on his rap sheet while the other has a Bollywood actress.

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Lol.There is no excuse for any failure other than you are simply not good enough. We are sensible enough to acknowledge that but you are even finding excuses out of thin air for home whitewash (might be the first for any Pakistan captain) against a pathetic team like Srilanka.
    A pathetic team that just beat BD, WI, and SA?

    Excuses are one thing if I did not give you credit for beating the same team months earlier.

    I'm stating the background information which you kindly ignore on India's tour to NZ.

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Has he ever beaten a non-minnow anywhere in ODI or Test series? Not even good enough good to tie the shoeleaces of Kohli.
    The Champions Trophy is an ODI series

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    Which ever way you try and spin it (currently by going against your own word of a whitewash is a whitewash no matter the margin and directing it towards Dhoni instead of Kohli), Sarfraz and Kohli is not a comparison as far as CAPTAINCY is concerned.

    I'll end with this: one has an ICC trophy on his rap sheet while the other has a Bollywood actress.
    i will end with this.One has beaten non-minnows in both Test and ODI series whereas other have not won a Test/ODI series against a non-minnow yet got whitewashed by pathetic Srilankan team for the first time in the history of his country's history.If he had any shame, he would have resigned then and there itself.

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    A pathetic team that just beat BD, WI, and SA?

    Excuses are one thing if I did not give you credit for beating the same team months earlier.

    I'm stating the background information which you kindly ignore on India's tour to NZ.
    LOL.BD and WI. Even your team will beat those minnows.And SA are pathetic against spinners and even then they beat them at their own home. But when they smoked you by 2-0, they did it at your own home and that too after a brutal mauling from us (Couldn't even beat us even in one game in that tour either in ODI or Tests or T20).

  31. #191
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    Can't believe this is even being discussed.

    Sarfaraz had the challenge of introducing young players with little international cricket experience. He introduced young players like Faheem and Shadab and gave them the chance to prove themselves as world class all-rounders. He took a rookie team to a world tournament win by beating their arch-rivals by a record margin. Sarfaraz is known to pick a good starting 11 for most games and each player plays based on merit. Under Sarfaraz, we've seen the rise of Babar and Fakhar- 2 of the best top order batsmen in the world atm.

    Kohli didn't have the challenge of building a new team like Sarfaraz did. Most of the players that remain a part of the side have been playing since the days of Dhoni. Dhoni already laid the foundation for Kohli to build upon. What Kohli has been doing now, however, is showing favortism in team selection. Players like Dhoni, who is past his best, shouldn't be anywhere near the LOI side. But Kohli insists on keeping him around rather than grooming a younger wicket-keeper batsman. Players like Rahul aren't given proper chances and are dropped immediately after not performing well.

    There is no doubt that Kohli is a much better player than Sarfaraz, but Sarfaraz wipes the floor when it comes to captaincy. The rise of Pakistan under Sarfaraz has been much more grand than the rise of India under Kohli.

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    Can't believe this is even being discussed.

    Sarfaraz had the challenge of introducing young players with little international cricket experience. He introduced young players like Faheem and Shadab and gave them the chance to prove themselves as world class all-rounders. He took a rookie team to a world tournament win by beating their arch-rivals by a record margin. Sarfaraz is known to pick a good starting 11 for most games and each player plays based on merit. Under Sarfaraz, we've seen the rise of Babar and Fakhar- 2 of the best top order batsmen in the world atm.

    Kohli didn't have the challenge of building a new team like Sarfaraz did. Most of the players that remain a part of the side have been playing since the days of Dhoni. Dhoni already laid the foundation for Kohli to build upon. What Kohli has been doing now, however, is showing favortism in team selection. Players like Dhoni, who is past his best, shouldn't be anywhere near the LOI side. But Kohli insists on keeping him around rather than grooming a younger wicket-keeper batsman. Players like Rahul aren't given proper chances and are dropped immediately after not performing well.

    There is no doubt that Kohli is a much better player than Sarfaraz, but Sarfaraz wipes the floor when it comes to captaincy. The rise of Pakistan under Sarfaraz has been much more grand than the rise of India under Kohli.
    Very good post! One is building a team for the future, the other is destroying an already established team.

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    Can't believe this is even being discussed.

    Sarfaraz had the challenge of introducing young players with little international cricket experience. He introduced young players like Faheem and Shadab and gave them the chance to prove themselves as world class all-rounders. He took a rookie team to a world tournament win by beating their arch-rivals by a record margin. Sarfaraz is known to pick a good starting 11 for most games and each player plays based on merit. Under Sarfaraz, we've seen the rise of Babar and Fakhar- 2 of the best top order batsmen in the world atm.

    Kohli didn't have the challenge of building a new team like Sarfaraz did. Most of the players that remain a part of the side have been playing since the days of Dhoni. Dhoni already laid the foundation for Kohli to build upon. What Kohli has been doing now, however, is showing favortism in team selection. Players like Dhoni, who is past his best, shouldn't be anywhere near the LOI side. But Kohli insists on keeping him around rather than grooming a younger wicket-keeper batsman. Players like Rahul aren't given proper chances and are dropped immediately after not performing well.

    There is no doubt that Kohli is a much better player than Sarfaraz, but Sarfaraz wipes the floor when it comes to captaincy. The rise of Pakistan under Sarfaraz has been much more grand than the rise of India under Kohli.
    2-0 whitewash at home against side like Srilanka and 5-0 whitewash against Newzealand is not a rise in any world.He would be the first Pakistan captain to undergo such humiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    Key word being "have," meaning they've done it before, but can't do it again if required.

    How about his 96(86) at Galle against Herath and Perera which took Pakistan to 400?

    I know you're not a fan of Sarf fsr but you're definitely wrong here.

    So Smith can't score against spinners again in the future but Sarfraz can ?

    How many years ago was that? Sarfraz is a good player of spin but not 1 of the best in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    I agree with your points but this is a thread strictly on who’s the better captain.

    And when commenting on that comparison, Sarfraz wins hands down. Does not mean he’s a better cricketer or role model but simply a better cricketing leader.

    Kohli isn't a bad leader at all. He leads through performance and his attitude towards fitness and hard work,not everyone is tactically astute.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    Can't believe this is even being discussed.

    Sarfaraz had the challenge of introducing young players with little international cricket experience. He introduced young players like Faheem and Shadab and gave them the chance to prove themselves as world class all-rounders. He took a rookie team to a world tournament win by beating their arch-rivals by a record margin. Sarfaraz is known to pick a good starting 11 for most games and each player plays based on merit. Under Sarfaraz, we've seen the rise of Babar and Fakhar- 2 of the best top order batsmen in the world atm.

    Kohli didn't have the challenge of building a new team like Sarfaraz did. Most of the players that remain a part of the side have been playing since the days of Dhoni. Dhoni already laid the foundation for Kohli to build upon. What Kohli has been doing now, however, is showing favortism in team selection. Players like Dhoni, who is past his best, shouldn't be anywhere near the LOI side. But Kohli insists on keeping him around rather than grooming a younger wicket-keeper batsman. Players like Rahul aren't given proper chances and are dropped immediately after not performing well.

    There is no doubt that Kohli is a much better player than Sarfaraz, but Sarfaraz wipes the floor when it comes to captaincy. The rise of Pakistan under Sarfaraz has been much more grand than the rise of India under Kohli.
    I couldn't have put it better myself. Top effort.

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Bumrah,Chahal,and Kuldeep have improved under Kohli.
    India's bowling has come leaps and bounds under Kohli particularly in tests. Dhoni on the other hand was setting defensive fields outside Asia and was shown to be tactically inept in the longer format in alien conditions.

    Sarfraz went into the SL series with just one spinner but yes he's still a more tactically astute captain according to the hype circle on here.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 6th August 2018 at 12:03.

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    2-0 whitewash at home against side like Srilanka and 5-0 whitewash against Newzealand is not a rise in any world.He would be the first Pakistan captain to undergo such humiliation.
    Stop treating SL as a minnow team. They have embarrassed Australia and SA in similar conditions. NZ in NZ beat India 4-0.

    And if you think these are the worst results any Pakistani captain achieved then you should stop posting here. Ever heard of the 3-0 whitewash in Bangladesh or several whitewashes in Australia or a home series loss to Zimbabwe?

    I have no doubt now that your understanding and knowledge of cricket is pedestrian level.

  39. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    India's bowling has come leaps and bounds under Kohli particularly in tests. Dhoni on the other hand was setting defensive fields outside Asia and was shown to be tactically inept in the longer format in alien conditions.

    Sarfraz went into the SL series with just one spinner but yes he's still a more tactically astute captain according to the hype circle on here.

    Sarfraz looks amazing as his predecessors were not very good tactically. Whilst Kohli can't be as good as tactically as Dhoni.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 6th August 2018 at 12:03.

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasan123 View Post
    Kohli isn't a bad leader at all. He leads through performance and his attitude towards fitness and hard work,not everyone is tactically astute.
    His fitness and work ethic are incomparable.

    That is commendable but does not help him win matches as a Captain.

    Look, there are several aspects of captaincy ranging from how you handle the different egos under your command, on-field improvisation and tactics, lockeroom politics, presentation of your unit and individual(s), finding the thumbscrew of the opposition, etc, etc.

    Kohli is the best batsman of his generation and this recent Test has erased his only blemish. But he has a LONG way to go before he can be considered a great captain. His Test record is superb but it is mostly been at Home. Now that is nothing to be ashamed of and is something Sarfraz failed at in his first assignment. But he made up for it by leading an inexperienced and novice unit in alien conditions to a draw.

    For all his accomplishments and fascinating traits, one thing Kohli has failed at is creating an environment in which the players feel at home. Look at Sarfraz’s merry men outside the field and sometimes even on (even when he gets angry, they don’t retaliate in disrespect) the field. Now, compare that with Kohli when he keeps chopping and changing and pushing the bravado.

    Can you imagine the conversation they had after that abysmal show in the second innings? Who can stand up to Kohli when he might be tearing their performances apart?

    A Captain is first responsible for his team environment. Sarfraz has taken a young and talented group and allowed them to as they say in cricketing terms, “play their natural game”.

  41. #201
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    If Kohli is such a good captain why is Dhoni still pulling the ropes in ODIs whilst Kohli hides out on the boundary?
    @ManFan

  42. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    If Kohli is such a good captain why is Dhoni still pulling the ropes in ODIs whilst Kohli hides out on the boundary?
    @ManFan
    Meanwhile Azhar would ask Sarfraz for advice when he was captain and change the field.

    The difference is drastic.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    You got whitewashed at home to Srilanka 2-0 and we whitewashed them at their home by 3-0.
    Comeback when you have as good record as Pak overseas. It is speacially shameful for BCCI to have all the resources to financially load their team and management but all they got is nothing but TRASH team that has done ZILCH overseas to impress.

    LOL. Indians got RAVAGED and thrashed by a team barely 1/10 of experience of Indians in international cricket IN THE CT LOL - how pathetic and terrible you lots are and your psychology. You can't even compete to a team with extremely low experience and from a country marred by corruption and going through its worst phase. That is how pathetic you lots are LOL.


    Best of The Best : Tendulkar - Wasim - Gilchrist

  44. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Any unbiased person can see the fact the if you remove Kohli from captaincy and give it to let's say Rohit in shorter formats and Rahane in tests, the results are going to be the same. I will take those home wins with a grain of salt. Even SL has been demolishing teams at home. The only reason that Kohli is captain is because he is an automatic choice in all formats and he is so far ahead of his teammates that BCCI has no choice but to keep Kohli as captain. Ponting won far more than Kohli ever will but how many regard him as a top captain? Not all great batsmen are great captains. This is a simple concept which his blind fans fail to understand.

    Had Kohli not captained India, they would have still won all the series. Any team with Ashwin and Jadeja in those conditions would have won. You are giving too much credit to his captaincy. What happened to this great captain when a visiting team for the first time challenged his at home? Rahane showed in just one match that how overrated Kohli is as a captain. However, this has become a norm that if you say anything about Kohli, you will be labeled either delusional or biased.

    Sarfraz is a better captain than Kohli and it is not even up for debate. His team selection is much better and he has been grooming younger players much better. Hafeez did not get a single ODI in Zimbabwe. Your excuse for Kohli's support for Dhoni is useless. It is just not Dhoni. Kohli has consistently showed support for TTFs or has-beens. He has not allowed Rahul to settle because he keeps bringing back Jhadav, Karthik, Raina, etc. He brought back Gambhir of all people. He shamelessly tried to disturb the whole batting order by moving everyone to accommodate his friend Sharma.

    I think I have debated enough on this topic and thee is nothing else to write. Someone who is yet to win a tournament or a major test series outside home is getting too much credit for his captaincy. His fans are too blind to see his flaws:

    1. He was completely clueless in the CT final.
    2. He single handedly lost the SA test series due to his poor team selection.
    3. Indian middle order is not settled in any format. His teammates have lost confidence due to consistence droppings.
    4. He has systematically kept Rahul out of team to make room for his buddies.
    5. He is completely spineless to criticize Dhoni. He infact supports him shamelessly in every press conference.
    6. He is tactically very poor.

    The irony is that all the criticism for Sarfraz applies to Kohli more:

    1. Sarfraz plays his buddies (none of Asad, Azhar, Anwar, etc. are in the team). All of Kohli's buddies are always picked.

    2. Sarfraz was a dummy captain in PSL. He went to KP for guidance. This is actually true for Kohli who runs to Dhoni when the tough gets going.

    3. Sarfraz is spineless. That is why Hafeez has been dropped. Kohli on the other hand showers praises on Dhoni.
    Although the Champions Trophy was a fluke, I will give Sarfraz credit because I don’t think Azhar would have been able to fluke those wins against South Africa, England and India.

    However, any captain would have won the matches against minnows and associates that have made Sarfraz look like a legendary batsman.

    Even a rookie like Imam will captain the team to wins against Scotland, Zimbabwe and weak Sri Lankan and Zimbabwean teams.

    Since Champions Trophy, the only tough ODI series that Sarfraz played was in New Zealand, and he looked as clueless as Azhar did against England and Australia in ODIs.

    Sarfraz’s Test record as captain also makes for a poor reading: 3 defeats in 5 games.

    I fail to see what makes him so special as a captain. People talk about giving youngsters a chance, but again, that is not a big deal when you don’t have a settled squad.

    We have been rebuilding and have tried different combinations, it has nothing to do with Sarfraz having great vision.

    People talk about Kohli not giving new players chances. He booted out veterans like Ashwin and Jadeja for Yadav and Chahal when they had stagnated in Limited Overs.

    Hafeez has been sidelined by Mickey. Sarfraz has nothing to do with it. As far as Kohli protecting Dhoni is concerned, what do you expect him to say in press conferences? That Dhoni is a washed up geezer who is selfishly hogging a place in the team?

    Dhoni is a huge figure and he is in a position where Kohli and BCCI are pretty much powerless to tell him to go. He will eventually force their hand, but it hasn’t reached that stage yet.

    He will definitely retire after the World Cup next year and I don’t think the management is interested in tainting his legacy by throwing him out against his wishes.

    Kohli is not a great captain, but he is not a slouch either. He has weaknesses which I have highlighted early, but he has improved India’s bowling in Tests. As far as the South African series is concerned, he made selection errors, but that series could have easily been 2-1 in India’s favor had he won two tosses instead of Faf.

    Chasing in the fourth innings was impossible in those conditions and it was not a surprise that South Africa got trashed in the third Test as soon as Kohli won the toss and decided to bat first.

    Sarfraz is a good captain, but he is not some miracle worker that Pakistani fans have made him look to be. However, it is understandable because our fans are extremely desperate and deluded.

    They will keep shouting about how Sarfraz is a better captain and all that, but India will continue to be ranked higher than Pakistan in Tests and ODIs.

    Who cares about Sarfraz’s captaincy when we continue to be a mediocre team. We saw the improvements when we got thrashed in New Zealand 5-0, but I guess that reality check was not enough for our fans.

  45. #205
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    Kohli fields in the outfield in the death overs in ODIs because along with Jadeja, he is the best deep fielder in India.

    He covers ground rapidly, doesn’t misfield and fumble the ball, and has a very accurate, strong throw.

    Pakistani fans: Kohli is a coward who hides on the boundary in close matches because he cannot handle the pressure.

    This reminds me of what the great Mirza Ghalib said:

    Hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat, lekin

    Dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghalib yeh khayaal achcha hai


    Last edited by AssassinatedDevil; 5th August 2018 at 23:54.

  46. #206
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    His decision to not employ Ashwin against Curran properly was the biggest error in the test match.

    Maybe a good motivator and leads from the front but tactially very poor. India need to look for someone else, maybe Ashwin


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  47. #207
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    So Sarfraz deserves no credit for winning while Kohli deserves credit for failing.

    OK.

    Got it.

  48. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Although the Champions Trophy was a fluke, I will give Sarfraz credit because I don’t think Azhar would have been able to fluke those wins against South Africa, England and India.

    However, any captain would have won the matches against minnows and associates that have made Sarfraz look like a legendary batsman.

    Even a rookie like Imam will captain the team to wins against Scotland, Zimbabwe and weak Sri Lankan and Zimbabwean teams.

    Since Champions Trophy, the only tough ODI series that Sarfraz played was in New Zealand, and he looked as clueless as Azhar did against England and Australia in ODIs.

    Sarfraz’s Test record as captain also makes for a poor reading: 3 defeats in 5 games.

    I fail to see what makes him so special as a captain. People talk about giving youngsters a chance, but again, that is not a big deal when you don’t have a settled squad.

    We have been rebuilding and have tried different combinations, it has nothing to do with Sarfraz having great vision.

    People talk about Kohli not giving new players chances. He booted out veterans like Ashwin and Jadeja for Yadav and Chahal when they had stagnated in Limited Overs.

    Hafeez has been sidelined by Mickey. Sarfraz has nothing to do with it. As far as Kohli protecting Dhoni is concerned, what do you expect him to say in press conferences? That Dhoni is a washed up geezer who is selfishly hogging a place in the team?

    Dhoni is a huge figure and he is in a position where Kohli and BCCI are pretty much powerless to tell him to go. He will eventually force their hand, but it hasn’t reached that stage yet.

    He will definitely retire after the World Cup next year and I don’t think the management is interested in tainting his legacy by throwing him out against his wishes.

    Kohli is not a great captain, but he is not a slouch either. He has weaknesses which I have highlighted early, but he has improved India’s bowling in Tests. As far as the South African series is concerned, he made selection errors, but that series could have easily been 2-1 in India’s favor had he won two tosses instead of Faf.

    Chasing in the fourth innings was impossible in those conditions and it was not a surprise that South Africa got trashed in the third Test as soon as Kohli won the toss and decided to bat first.

    Sarfraz is a good captain, but he is not some miracle worker that Pakistani fans have made him look to be. However, it is understandable because our fans are extremely desperate and deluded.

    They will keep shouting about how Sarfraz is a better captain and all that, but India will continue to be ranked higher than Pakistan in Tests and ODIs.

    Who cares about Sarfraz’s captaincy when we continue to be a mediocre team. We saw the improvements when we got thrashed in New Zealand 5-0, but I guess that reality check was not enough for our fans.
    You know someone has lost an argument when they accept that Kohli is not a great captain and Sarfraz is a good captain. However, they just can't admit it that a Pakistani cricketer is better than an Indian cricketer at something due to their ego and bias against a certain team and player.

    The strength of a team has nothing to do with captaincy otherwise Ponting would be considered a better captain than Fleming. Even Ranatunga who is nowhere near Ponting as a cricketer was a better captain. This is not a hard concept to grasp. Unfortunately, the only argument I hear are either totally irrelevant to the discussion or subjective like he's a better batsman or he's inspiring his teammates.

  49. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    You know someone has lost an argument when they accept that Kohli is not a great captain and Sarfraz is a good captain. However, they just can't admit it that a Pakistani cricketer is better than an Indian cricketer at something due to their ego and bias against a certain team and player.

    The strength of a team has nothing to do with captaincy otherwise Ponting would be considered a better captain than Fleming. Even Ranatunga who is nowhere near Ponting as a cricketer was a better captain. This is not a hard concept to grasp. Unfortunately, the only argument I hear are either totally irrelevant to the discussion or subjective like he's a better batsman or he's inspiring his teammates.
    I don’t see the problem in admitting that.

    I can comfortably state that Kohli is better than Sarfraz and the entire PAK XI as a batsman.

    But he’s a poor captain.

  50. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Kohli fields in the outfield in the death overs in ODIs because along with Jadeja, he is the best deep fielder in India.

    He covers ground rapidly, doesn’t misfield and fumble the ball, and has a very accurate, strong throw.

    Pakistani fans: Kohli is a coward who hides on the boundary in close matches because he cannot handle the pressure.

    This reminds me of what the great Mirza Ghalib said:

    Hum ko maaloom hai jannat ki haqeeqat, lekin

    Dil ko khush rakhne ko Ghalib yeh khayaal achcha hai



    Pretty rich from someone who thinks Faheem is not even a cricketer, let alone an all-rounder.
    Last edited by AssassinatedDevil; 5th August 2018 at 23:56.

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManFan View Post
    I don’t see the problem in admitting that.

    I can comfortably state that Kohli is better than Sarfraz and the entire PAK XI as a batsman.

    But he’s a poor captain.
    Kohli is better than the entire Pakistani squad put together but it is too hard for some people on this forum to admit that a Pakistani cricketer could be better at something.

  52. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Kohli is better than the entire Pakistani squad put together but it is too hard for some people on this forum to admit that a Pakistani cricketer could be better at something.
    We all agree that Pakistani bowling is way better than Indians or Amir is better than any Indian seamer at present.

    But what you are asking us to accept is factually not correct. Under Kohli's captaincy, this Eng ODI series loss of 2-1 is the first loss in his tenure. He won all series at home also beat SA in SA. Even at tests he is doing a great job. Won the debut series in SL, won all series at home, captained like a champion in SA (even though we lost). He took his team to CT final as well.

    Sarfraz though won the CT but getting whitewashed by SL at home, whitewashed by NZ in NZ etc took a hit at his captaincy calibre.

    Another key factor is Kohli has that persona, charm and charisma. He leads from the front with the bat or fielding and set example to everyone. Sarfraz is a poor player (skillwise) and resort to shouting towards cricketers who are superior to him. I think it wont be long when someone from his team give him back in field. If I recall, Hasan Ali already got furious towards him once. Sarfraz dont command the same respect from his fellow players like Kohli does.

    Kohli is a better captain and will lead India for next 6-8 years atleast. Ask any experts anywhere, they would pick Kohli anyday.

  53. #213
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    No one will remember Sarfraz when he retires regardless of who is more "tactically astute" today because his lack of fitness, training and care for his diet has accelerated his decline in his batting and eventually sometime in the short term future (2019 WC or 2020 WT20) he'll be axed from the team. If he isn't, his batting legacy will become the equivalent of Adnan Akmal.

    I had high hopes for Sarfraz after the 2017 CT win but it strongly appears he has become content with this success and his hunger for more silverware has simply diminished because of his lifestyle habits and poor work ethic, so for those who expect big things from are going to be left in dispair eventually because he isn't going to be a captain or player for much longer. He's already 31, so I doubt with his current levels of commitment he's going to last for long unless Pakistan want to treat him like a Hafeez and let his career linger with further mediocrity up until 40. Time to wake up and face the reality. The sooner he goes after next year's WC the better. As mentioned earlier by another poster, no one aspires to be Sarfraz but more people in Pakistan for sure dream to be the Pakistani Virat Kohli.
    Last edited by topspin; 5th August 2018 at 22:21.

  54. #214
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    Kohli is probably as bad a captain as Tendulkar was; there is no comparison with Sarfraz; Sarfraz cannot make the team on merit as batsman or wicket keeper and yet he is making the team only because of his captaincy

  55. #215
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    Sarfaraz is Brearley to Kohli's Botham, that sums it up imo

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canford Cliffs View Post
    We all agree that Pakistani bowling is way better than Indians or Amir is better than any Indian seamer at present.

    But what you are asking us to accept is factually not correct. Under Kohli's captaincy, this Eng ODI series loss of 2-1 is the first loss in his tenure. He won all series at home also beat SA in SA. Even at tests he is doing a great job. Won the debut series in SL, won all series at home, captained like a champion in SA (even though we lost). He took his team to CT final as well.

    Sarfraz though won the CT but getting whitewashed by SL at home, whitewashed by NZ in NZ etc took a hit at his captaincy calibre.

    Another key factor is Kohli has that persona, charm and charisma. He leads from the front with the bat or fielding and set example to everyone. Sarfraz is a poor player (skillwise) and resort to shouting towards cricketers who are superior to him. I think it wont be long when someone from his team give him back in field. If I recall, Hasan Ali already got furious towards him once. Sarfraz dont command the same respect from his fellow players like Kohli does.

    Kohli is a better captain and will lead India for next 6-8 years atleast. Ask any experts anywhere, they would pick Kohli anyday.
    No, Pakistan's bowling is not way better than India's. The spinners have made the Indian attack better. Pakistan's fast bowling is a bit better.

    Beating all those teams at home is no big achievement. Overseas batsmen are worst at playing spin in this era. If you made Rahane captain, India would have still won all those series because they are a superior team in those conditions. There is no Kohli magic in it.

    Whenever Kohli's fans have no valid argument left, they resort to bringing his batting skills which are irrelevant in this discussion. Ranatunga had the worst fitness, yet many would take his captaincy over Ponting's who is an ATG batsman.

    Losing to NZ is not a big deal. They are a very strong team at home. They beat India 4-0. SL is no minnow team in Asia. They have embarrassed both Australia and SA in those conditions. That was Pakistan's first series after Younis and Misbah. Mickey and Arthur made a blunder by not playing second spinner. Besides, captaincy and team strength are two different things. You can't expect Sarfraz to be a world beater with the players available to him. It's like saying Fleming was a poor captain because NZ did not win anything big under him. They just didn't have not have the players. Kohli, on the other hand, has the best available talent and full say in team selection, what is stopping him from winning overseas test series?

    All indirect comparisons are useless when we know Sarfraz lifted the CT while Kohli went back home in tears. Sarfraz beat England in the first test, Kohli lost his first against the same team. Sarfraz' team has been very successful in the PSL while Kohli's strong RCB is yet to win an IPL.

  57. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspin View Post
    No one will remember Sarfraz when he retires regardless of who is more "tactically astute" today because his lack of fitness, training and care for his diet has accelerated his decline in his batting and eventually sometime in the short term future (2019 WC or 2020 WT20) he'll be axed from the team. If he isn't, his batting legacy will become the equivalent of Adnan Akmal.

    I had high hopes for Sarfraz after the 2017 CT win but it strongly appears he has become content with this success and his hunger for more silverware has simply diminished because of his lifestyle habits and poor work ethic, so for those who expect big things from are going to be left in dispair eventually because he isn't going to be a captain or player for much longer. He's already 31, so I doubt with his current levels of commitment he's going to last for long unless Pakistan want to treat him like a Hafeez and let his career linger with further mediocrity up until 40. Time to wake up and face the reality. The sooner he goes after next year's WC the better. As mentioned earlier by another poster, no one aspires to be Sarfraz but more people in Pakistan for sure dream to be the Pakistani Virat Kohli.
    Just one question for you. Who was a better captain, Ranatunga (he captained SL in 96 in case you don't know) or Ponting?

  58. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricVet View Post
    Comeback when you have as good record as Pak overseas. It is speacially shameful for BCCI to have all the resources to financially load their team and management but all they got is nothing but TRASH team that has done ZILCH overseas to impress.

    LOL. Indians got RAVAGED and thrashed by a team barely 1/10 of experience of Indians in international cricket IN THE CT LOL - how pathetic and terrible you lots are and your psychology. You can't even compete to a team with extremely low experience and from a country marred by corruption and going through its worst phase. That is how pathetic you lots are LOL.
    Good record overseas as Pakistan? LOL. The last time you won/drew a Test in Australia was in 1995, 23 years back. That too even with way better fast bowlers than us.

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Stop treating SL as a minnow team. They have embarrassed Australia and SA in similar conditions. NZ in NZ beat India 4-0.

    And if you think these are the worst results any Pakistani captain achieved then you should stop posting here. Ever heard of the 3-0 whitewash in Bangladesh or several whitewashes in Australia or a home series loss to Zimbabwe?

    I have no doubt now that your understanding and knowledge of cricket is pedestrian level.
    Aussies and SA are not subcontinental teams known for playing spin .And they beat them in SL. Yours is a subcontinental team grown up on playing spin and they beat you 2-0 at your own home. That too straight after a humiliating mauling by us at their own home.They were at their lowest point in their history and still blanked you.And it was discussed widely in this forum those days that Sarfaraz did a big tactical mistake by going with only one spinner. If he was better than Kohli, he would have atleast drew that series against such a team coming straight after losing all the matches at home against us.

  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    Good record overseas as Pakistan? LOL. The last time you won/drew a Test in Australia was in 1995, 23 years back. That too even with way better fast bowlers than us.
    But but but we thrashed Zim-D 5-0 in Zimbabwe with our A side.

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    He was also the first Pakistan captain to lift the Champion's trophy and that too with a very young team, in contrast, Kohli has players like Sharma, Dhawan, and Dhoni who are very big names in international cricket. Also, Sarfraz is only one of two Pakistan captains to win a major 50 over competition, so I don't think he went through any "humiliation", in fact he should be proud of what he has achieved. As far as the 5-0 whitewash is concerned, yes i get that it was a bad series but it was his and most of the players in the squad's first ever tour there. The 2-0 whitewash was his first ever series as test captain, being a captain in tests is a whole different ball game and that too without Misbah and Younis which have been tremendous of the years, we all knew that series was going to be tough, but still the margin of defeat was very narrow so I wouldn't consider that as a humiliation for a player on test captaincy debut.

  62. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    2-0 whitewash at home against side like Srilanka and 5-0 whitewash against Newzealand is not a rise in any world.He would be the first Pakistan captain to undergo such humiliation.
    Refer to post number 221

  63. #223
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    Kohli is a clueless captain tbh. His selection policies are ridiculous. He has instilled fear in most of the players that no one's place is safe in the team except his'. You can see the results as no batter looks confident in their test team apart from himself, knowing they can be booted out any time. Rahane looks extremely out of place so do Vijay and Pujara. The only beneficiaries of his vision have been Bumrah and Pandya, who will get a place regardless of their performances cause "they have potential to be one of the best". No one would bench Bhuvneshwar for a Test in SA for an excuse like this pitch suited Ishant more or would pick Rohit for Rahane cause Rohit is more aggressive.

    He needs to give confidence to his incumbents and tell them they will play regardless of their form instead of having a bad game and being booted out for "more suitable option".

    It's more or less the same reason that he hasn't been able to find a permanent no. 4 and no.6 in LOI's when he keeps dropping people after a few failures.

    Plus reading @Mamoon's anti Pakistan analyses has been becoming even more nauseating as the time passes by.

  64. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    If Kohli is such a good captain why is Dhoni still pulling the ropes in ODIs whilst Kohli hides out on the boundary?
    @ManFan
    Because he doesn't hold a candle to Dhoni's astute knowledge of the game.

    Sarfaraz, for all his yelling and shouting out on the field, exudes authority because he takes charge in the field. He is the sole tactician who decides field placements and bowling changes, which happen to be the things that a captain should take charge of in every team. Relegating these tasks on your senior colleagues makes it seem like you have some sort of doubt about your decisions. Also, it makes it seem like Kohli keeps Dhoni in the team just for these sort of things

  65. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingolfy View Post
    2-0 whitewash at home against side like Srilanka and 5-0 whitewash against Newzealand is not a rise in any world.He would be the first Pakistan captain to undergo such humiliation.
    So by that logic, Sri Lanka is also a better team than India since Pakistan beat India just last year in a final but they couldn't beat Sri Lanka at home. Is that the way you think about sports? Just focussing on the flaws of a team and blatantly ignoring the positives? If you can't realise that Pakistan has improved a lot under Sarfaraz then you must've started watching cricket after the Pak vs NZ series.

  66. #226
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    Dhoni>sarfraz>kohli

  67. #227
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    I see a lot of people talking about how Sarfraz takes charge of the game and is a proactive captain, and that is what makes him a great leader.

    There is more to great leadership than shouting at better players, and perhaps it will also help if Sarfraz takes charge as a player as well, instead of performing poorly and not showing any dedication with his fitness.

    A great leader has to back himself as a player as well, and not hide behind Imad Wasim in a Champions Trophy Final who only scored 2 boundaries in 25 odd deliveries.

    The fact that Sarfraz did not back himself to score some quick runs and completely take India out of the game in that situation was an early sign of his tendency to hide behind his teammates and not take any responsibility as an individual player.

    However, I suppose it’s all fine as long as he is thrashing minnows and weak teams and is shouting at players who are performing better than him. The whitewash in New Zealand is irrelevant.

  68. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I see a lot of people talking about how Sarfraz takes charge of the game and is a proactive captain, and that is what makes him a great leader.

    There is more to great leadership than shouting at better players, and perhaps it will also help if Sarfraz takes charge as a player as well, instead of performing poorly and not showing any dedication with his fitness.

    A great leader has to back himself as a player as well, and not hide behind Imad Wasim in a Champions Trophy Final who only scored 2 boundaries in 25 odd deliveries.

    The fact that Sarfraz did not back himself to score some quick runs and completely take India out of the game in that situation was an early sign of his tendency to hide behind his teammates and not take any responsibility as an individual player.

    However, I suppose it’s all fine as long as he is thrashing minnows and weak teams and is shouting at players who are performing better than him. The whitewash in New Zealand is irrelevant.
    By that logic Ganguly was an idiot promoting a rookie Dhoni to 3 against Pakistan in a home series

  69. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I see a lot of people talking about how Sarfraz takes charge of the game and is a proactive captain, and that is what makes him a great leader.

    There is more to great leadership than shouting at better players, and perhaps it will also help if Sarfraz takes charge as a player as well, instead of performing poorly and not showing any dedication with his fitness.

    A great leader has to back himself as a player as well, and not hide behind Imad Wasim in a Champions Trophy Final who only scored 2 boundaries in 25 odd deliveries.

    The fact that Sarfraz did not back himself to score some quick runs and completely take India out of the game in that situation was an early sign of his tendency to hide behind his teammates and not take any responsibility as an individual player.

    However, I suppose it’s all fine as long as he is thrashing minnows and weak teams and is shouting at players who are performing better than him. The whitewash in New Zealand is irrelevant.
    If Sarfraz Ahmed realises that he is not a power-hitter and understands & accepts the fact that someone else may perform better than him, I consider this to be our great luck. Instead of coming out himself with a rather limited power-hitter technique in hopes of getting personal milestones and fame, he sent out Imad Wasim who had shown potential to play quick - for the TEAM.

    What you may see as a flaw is actually a blessing. He is not selfish and not driven by the desire to make himself famous. He puts the teams needs over himself.

  70. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    If Sarfraz Ahmed realises that he is not a power-hitter and understands & accepts the fact that someone else may perform better than him, I consider this to be our great luck. Instead of coming out himself with a rather limited power-hitter technique in hopes of getting personal milestones and fame, he sent out Imad Wasim who had shown potential to play quick - for the TEAM.

    What you may see as a flaw is actually a blessing. He is not selfish and not driven by the desire to make himself famous. He puts the teams needs over himself.
    Yes that is correct, but i feel that he needs to realise that he has to improve his batting and fitness A LOT if Pakistan are to succeed.

  71. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    You know someone has lost an argument when they accept that Kohli is not a great captain and Sarfraz is a good captain. However, they just can't admit it that a Pakistani cricketer is better than an Indian cricketer at something due to their ego and bias against a certain team and player.

    The strength of a team has nothing to do with captaincy otherwise Ponting would be considered a better captain than Fleming. Even Ranatunga who is nowhere near Ponting as a cricketer was a better captain. This is not a hard concept to grasp. Unfortunately, the only argument I hear are either totally irrelevant to the discussion or subjective like he's a better batsman or he's inspiring his teammates.
    I have maintained from the start of this so-called discussion that Kohli is a good captain but he needs to improve in certain areas.

    I have also called Sarfraz a good captain and better than Azhar, although the latter had to cope with much tougher opposition, so I am not sure from where you have pulled this out.

    As far as the rest of the post is concerned, you have made irrational arguments to prove that Kohli is a dud captain and that Sarfraz is far better.

    You refuse to give Kohli credit for winning a Test series against all major teams and thrashed South Africa 5-1 in an away ODI series, because apparently India would have won all those series without Kohli’s captaincy.

    However, you refuse to extend the same logic to Sarfraz winning series against Scotland, Zimbabwe, West Indies, Sri Lanka who are weak in ODIs now as well as a second string Australian team against whom Sarfraz has a 2-1 record.

    You also have nothing to say over why Sarfraz could not win Pakistan a single ODI in New Zealand (the only tough series since the Champions Trophy) if he is such a tactical genius. Perhaps it would help if he can perform as a player against a good team for once? He has been garbage against any good team since 2016.

    You criticize Kohli for not kicking Dhoni out and for protecting him in press conferences, but you have not explained what you want Kohli to tell the media? That Dhoni is a selfish player who is blackmailing the management?

    What would Sarfraz have done if he was the Indian captain? What would he have said regarding Dhoni in press conferences?

    You have ignored the fact that he couldn’t even kick Hafeez out of the team and even demoted himself down the order to accommodate him at number four.

    The only reason Hafeez is out of the team is because Mickey has had enough of him. Sarfraz doesn’t have the personality or the guts to stand up to seniors.

    As far as the Champions Trophy is concerned, yes Sarfraz won the trophy, but Kohli smashed his team earlier and made it to the final.

    It was a bad day for India and a great day for Pakistan. The fact that Bumrah dismissed Fakhar on a no-ball had nothing to do with the captaincy of Kohli and Sarfraz.

  72. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adijazz1706 View Post
    By that logic Ganguly was an idiot promoting a rookie Dhoni to 3 against Pakistan in a home series
    Yes he was an idiot for promoting Dhoni to number 3 because he smashed 150 against Pakistan and then smashed 183 against Sri Lanka a few months later.

    Dhoni was a devastating top order batsman. He first gained prominence when he scored a lot of runs at the top of the order for India A in a tri-series in Kenya.

    If he was selfish, he could have kept batting at 3 and would have scored 30+ ODI hundreds, but since India had a lot of top-order players, he demoted himself down the order and evolved into a legendary finisher.

  73. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    If Sarfraz Ahmed realises that he is not a power-hitter and understands & accepts the fact that someone else may perform better than him, I consider this to be our great luck. Instead of coming out himself with a rather limited power-hitter technique in hopes of getting personal milestones and fame, he sent out Imad Wasim who had shown potential to play quick - for the TEAM.

    What you may see as a flaw is actually a blessing. He is not selfish and not driven by the desire to make himself famous. He puts the teams needs over himself.
    You don’t have to be a great power-hitter to do better than Imad, who had made zero contribution with the bat in that tournament and cost Pakistan 10-15 runs because of his inability to find the fence.

    If you are not backing yourself as captain to come at 270/4 in 42 overs, it says a lot about you as a leader.

    As captain you have to take risks. Great leaders do not hide. In the 2011 World Cup Final, an out of form Dhoni promoted himself ahead of inform players like Yuvraj and Raina because he wanted to take responsibility.

    Had he failed and India lost, he would have been heavily criticized for being selfish and trying to steal glory, but that is what great captains do; they take charge and lead from the front.

    However, our standards are so low that all it takes is a bunch of wins against minnows bad weak teams for someone to be labeled a great leader.

    The whitewash in New Zealand was eye-opening and exposed the so-called great leader.

    As long as don’t win series against the top sides which Sarfraz hasn’t been able to so far, we cannot call him a great leader.

    We have a lot of tough series coming up and it will show where Sarfraz stands as a player, leader and tactician.

  74. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Yes he was an idiot for promoting Dhoni to number 3 because he smashed 150 against Pakistan and then smashed 183 against Sri Lanka a few months later.

    Dhoni was a devastating top order batsman. He first gained prominence when he scored a lot of runs at the top of the order for India A in a tri-series in Kenya.

    If he was selfish, he could have kept batting at 3 and would have scored 30+ ODI hundreds, but since India had a lot of top-order players, he demoted himself down the order and evolved into a legendary finisher.
    Dhoni was on the verge of being dropped once Karthik came back from injury IIRC, the fact that Ganguly backed him in a high pressure contest was the making of him. Sarfaraz probably thought Imad had a better chance of scoring runs based on his performance in the previous ODI series in England, it was the obvious decision. Oh, and Dhoni in the WC final came in because of Murali having 2 left handers to target in case Raina or Yuvraj came in
    Last edited by Adijazz1706; 6th August 2018 at 09:16.

  75. #235
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    To rate someone on how they might've captained a side is to first give precedence on the resources that the individual might have at his disposal. Many a times I've read on Pakpassion on how Pakistani athletes are not world class by any stretch of imagination; for the sake of the argument lets all agree that this facet is indeed true.

    Since we have now established a false negative (Type I error), the default setting should be a loss for Pakistan irrespective of the opponent the comes up against us. This is because, under normal circumstances and if all things are constant, not being world class should disable them from winning any games whatsoever. In such a scenario we insert a single variable 'alpha' i.e. captaincy win % and then adjudge both the candidates on how they fared.

    To have a fair comparison we will take sample sets from an arbitrary timeline and since Sarfraz was appointed captain much later than Virat we will take the whole of Sarfraz's career (From 23 Sept 2016) as captain and a portion of that of Kohli's (Same starting Date).

    In the given period (23rd Sept 2016 - 06 August 2018)

    Sarfraz (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 56
    Won = 42
    Win % = 75.00

    Kohli (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 73
    Won = 49
    Win % = 67.12

    At face value, Sarfraz has a higher Alpha value than Virat Kohli implying that if all other variables are kept constant then by sheer numbers Sarfraz is a better captain than Kohli. There are two options here now:

    (a) Pakistani players are world class and the difference in win percentage is because we have a core bunch of players that are superior in cricketing skill.
    (b) We accept the above results claiming that Indian players are superior to ours however due to the captaining skill of Sarfraz he is showing more progress than Kohli in captaining a side.


    P.S. You cannot eat you cake and then............

  76. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    To rate someone on how they might've captained a side is to first give precedence on the resources that the individual might have at his disposal. Many a times I've read on Pakpassion on how Pakistani athletes are not world class by any stretch of imagination; for the sake of the argument lets all agree that this facet is indeed true.

    Since we have now established a false negative (Type I error), the default setting should be a loss for Pakistan irrespective of the opponent the comes up against us. This is because, under normal circumstances and if all things are constant, not being world class should disable them from winning any games whatsoever. In such a scenario we insert a single variable 'alpha' i.e. captaincy win % and then adjudge both the candidates on how they fared.

    To have a fair comparison we will take sample sets from an arbitrary timeline and since Sarfraz was appointed captain much later than Virat we will take the whole of Sarfraz's career (From 23 Sept 2016) as captain and a portion of that of Kohli's (Same starting Date).

    In the given period (23rd Sept 2016 - 06 August 2018)

    Sarfraz (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 56
    Won = 42
    Win % = 75.00

    Kohli (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 73
    Won = 49
    Win % = 67.12

    At face value, Sarfraz has a higher Alpha value than Virat Kohli implying that if all other variables are kept constant then by sheer numbers Sarfraz is a better captain than Kohli. There are two options here now:

    (a) Pakistani players are world class and the difference in win percentage is because we have a core bunch of players that are superior in cricketing skill.
    (b) We accept the above results claiming that Indian players are superior to ours however due to the captaining skill of Sarfraz he is showing more progress than Kohli in captaining a side.


    P.S. You cannot eat you cake and then............
    You can use as many statistical jagnor and as many as proverbs as you want, but your so-called statistical jagnor means nothing when you don’t factor in the strength of the opposition.

    Comparing W/L ratios or averages and strike rates mean nothing unless you take the opposition into account.

    Kohli has captained ODI series against Australia, New Zealand, england and South Africa, while the only tough team Sarfraz has faced in ODIs was New Zealand and we were beaten like donkeys.

    In Tests, he has played a series against all tough teams while Sarfraz has only captained 5 matches, including two against Sri Lanka in the UAE where his brilliant captaincy shown through, as well as a match in Ireland.

    In T20s his record is impressive, but he has played a lot of matches against weak opposition.

    Henceforth, your comparison of W/L ratios and percentages is meaningless and has added zero value to this discourse.

    All your Type 1s and alphas and betas have failed.

  77. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adijazz1706 View Post
    Dhoni was on the verge of being dropped once Karthik came back from injury IIRC, the fact that Ganguly backed him in a high pressure contest was the making of him. Sarfaraz probably thought Imad had a better chance of scoring runs based on his performance in the previous ODI series in England, it was the obvious decision. Oh, and Dhoni in the WC final came in because of Murali having 2 left handers to target in case Raina or Yuvraj came in
    Karthik is a mediocre player who would not have been able to keep Dhoni out of the team for long.

    Dhoni had a slow start to his career but India was aware of his immense potential. They were not going to discard him, just like they didn’t discard Rohit who took 6 years to get going in international cricket.

    That previous series in England was a year ago. Sarfraz backed Imad to score runs in June 2017 based on what he did in July 2016?

    What a tactical genius. No wonder he only hit 2 boundaries in 25 odd deliveries.

    As far as Dhoni promoting himself is concerned, irrespective of the Murali factor, he was in poor form and had struggled against far lesser bowlers than the Sri Lankan chucker, and Yuvraj and Raina were in great form, and were the reason why India won the quarterfinal and the semifinal respectively.

    It was a very bold decision and he deserves credit for absorbing the pressure, and proving himself the great leader that he was.

  78. #238
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    Viral kohli leads from the front and has full control.

    Sarfraz is bit of a coward, rides on the coat tails of other's success and pretends he had lot to do with it.

  79. #239
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    If Sarfraz somehow wins us the next world cup then IMO he will surpass Imran let alone Kohli (already a better captain than Kohli IMO) . That will be 3 global one day toutnament wins out of 3, with an Ok at best team especially when he took charge as odi captain (it was no 8/9).

    Frankly not many common cricket fans rembember bilatetals but tournament wins are remembered forever. I can't name even a single series which India won or lost in 1980s (even though I am a crazy cricket fanl) but know under Kapil India won 1983 world cup and for that he will always remain in high regards, similarly Dhoni will always be held as a great captain for wc and ct wins despite Kohli's India thrashing SA away 5-1.. If someone is comparing CT win with 5-0 loss against NZ then sorry you are living in lala land.

    Baqi other posters have already made some great points so can't add much. One thing though I would like to add is Pakistani team with mostly rookies is developing very nicely under Sarfraz with big match performances as well which can't be said about Indian team under Kohli, long may it continue.
    Last edited by SarfiBabarHaris; 6th August 2018 at 11:29.

  80. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahmedwaqas92 View Post
    To rate someone on how they might've captained a side is to first give precedence on the resources that the individual might have at his disposal. Many a times I've read on Pakpassion on how Pakistani athletes are not world class by any stretch of imagination; for the sake of the argument lets all agree that this facet is indeed true.

    Since we have now established a false negative (Type I error), the default setting should be a loss for Pakistan irrespective of the opponent the comes up against us. This is because, under normal circumstances and if all things are constant, not being world class should disable them from winning any games whatsoever. In such a scenario we insert a single variable 'alpha' i.e. captaincy win % and then adjudge both the candidates on how they fared.

    To have a fair comparison we will take sample sets from an arbitrary timeline and since Sarfraz was appointed captain much later than Virat we will take the whole of Sarfraz's career (From 23 Sept 2016) as captain and a portion of that of Kohli's (Same starting Date).

    In the given period (23rd Sept 2016 - 06 August 2018)

    Sarfraz (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 56
    Won = 42
    Win % = 75.00

    Kohli (Total Games as Captain Test/ODI/T20s)
    Matches = 73
    Won = 49
    Win % = 67.12

    At face value, Sarfraz has a higher Alpha value than Virat Kohli implying that if all other variables are kept constant then by sheer numbers Sarfraz is a better captain than Kohli. There are two options here now:

    (a) Pakistani players are world class and the difference in win percentage is because we have a core bunch of players that are superior in cricketing skill.
    (b) We accept the above results claiming that Indian players are superior to ours however due to the captaining skill of Sarfraz he is showing more progress than Kohli in captaining a side.


    P.S. You cannot eat you cake and then............
    Kohli also would have had better W/L ratio had he been playing minnows more.Get their W/L ratio against non-minnows and then we will see the massive difference.You have an SA tour coming up.We will see how you will do there and then hype up Sarafaraz.


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