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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Away nations

    Australia- 50.05
    Bangladesh- 80.83
    England- 52.46
    New Zealand- 62.16
    South Africa- 45.57
    Sri Lanka- 35.56
    West Indies- 45.46
    Zimbabwe- 60.83

    Guess where he has the worst average? His favourite opponent, Sri Lanka LOL. The only place where is average is below 45, by the way

    And finally, India- 58.39

    Away average overall- 48.89
    Neutral average- 60.03
    do indian's even care about averages in sri lanka? i thought series in srilanka are snooze fest and no one really bothered to show up from the fans ... turns out virat doesn't care much for them either

  2. #82
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    Would matter Zilch, if he can't perform in KOs under pressure in ICC tournaments.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    haha I had forgotten about that gem .. where he dismissed Kohli's Test hundreds in Aus because he declared them to be flat pitches

    Yet these same pitches no one else can score 4 centuries in a series in Australia.

  4. #84
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    In an era of tons of pointless bilateral ODIs, what really sets batsmen apart are their performances in multi team tournaments where every match right until the final has much more meaning than the bilaterals with the NRR in the equation as well.

    Virat Kohli's stats in tournaments of 3 teams or more against the Top 6 teams:



    Meanwhile, Steven Smith, a batsman considered as a vastly inferior ODI batsman to Kohli has these performances in that regard:



    It's hilarious really. Kohli is nowhere even Smith as an ODI batsman on the basis of performances in matches that actually matter. Kohli can score hundreds upon hundreds and average 300 in all of these useless bilaterals but as soon as the pressure of a tournament is on, the golden boy CHOKES. Not even one of the Top 5 ODI batsmen of this generation. The hype is just so so unwarranted.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    In an era of tons of pointless bilateral ODIs, what really sets batsmen apart are their performances in multi team tournaments where every match right until the final has much more meaning than the bilaterals with the NRR in the equation as well.

    Virat Kohli's stats in tournaments of 3 teams or more against the Top 6 teams:



    Meanwhile, Steven Smith, a batsman considered as a vastly inferior ODI batsman to Kohli has these performances in that regard:



    It's hilarious really. Kohli is nowhere even Smith as an ODI batsman on the basis of performances in matches that actually matter. Kohli can score hundreds upon hundreds and average 300 in all of these useless bilaterals but as soon as the pressure of a tournament is on, the golden boy CHOKES. Not even one of the Top 5 ODI batsmen of this generation. The hype is just so so unwarranted.
    ohh you found a new stat which suits you ? A tournament with 3 teams matters more than a series with 2 teams , cos there is a NRR factor ? Who can argue with this logic .

    And off course , Smith is considered vastly inferior ODI batsmen apparently by every one so lets pull up his stats . Average of of 54 , total of 759 runs in 22 matches of which 529 scored in the 10 matches at home , but i guess away stats dont matter when the player is not Virat .

    Curious to know who the 5 players of this generation better than Virat , I bet one is definitely Amla (lol) .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    ohh you found a new stat which suits you ? A tournament with 3 teams matters more than a series with 2 teams , cos there is a NRR factor ? Who can argue with this logic .

    And off course , Smith is considered vastly inferior ODI batsmen apparently by every one so lets pull up his stats . Average of of 54 , total of 759 runs in 22 matches of which 529 scored in the 10 matches at home , but i guess away stats dont matter when the player is not Virat .

    Curious to know who the 5 players of this generation better than Virat , I bet one is definitely Amla (lol) .
    No. Amla is actually the deputy choker in chief, right next to Kohli tbh. Both are like brothers in that regard.

    And of course a 3 team tournament is infinitely more significant than a bilateral series any day. In a bilateral of 5 matches, you can win 3 matches by 1 run and lose the other two by 200 runs and still be the winner of the series while in the case of 3 team tournaments, every match with the extent of the victory/ defeat as well comes into play and the tournament actually isn't over right until the final whereas a bilateral can end in barely more than half the matches with the others going redundant. It's a no brainer.

    Kohli isn't event the best in his own team in that regard. Dhawan is, who averages 50+. He's the best Indian ODI player of this generation by some distance. Sadly, he doesn't score as many hundreds as Kohli in pointless bilaterals so he won't get the publicity that Kohli gets.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    No. Amla is actually the deputy choker in chief, right next to Kohli tbh. Both are like brothers in that regard.

    And of course a 3 team tournament is infinitely more significant than a bilateral series any day. In a bilateral of 5 matches, you can win 3 matches by 1 run and lose the other two by 200 runs and still be the winner of the series while in the case of 3 team tournaments, every match with the extent of the victory/ defeat as well comes into play and the tournament actually isn't over right until the final whereas a bilateral can end in barely more than half the matches with the others going redundant. It's a no brainer.

    Kohli isn't event the best in his own team in that regard. Dhawan is, who averages 50+. He's the best Indian ODI player of this generation by some distance. Sadly, he doesn't score as many hundreds as Kohli in pointless bilaterals so he won't get the publicity that Kohli gets.
    Can you tell us some batsmen that have played a better inngs than the 133* vs SL and 183 Vs Pak ? Both in chases and Not in bilateral ODI's ?


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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Its quite hilarious to see Pakistani fans dismiss Non-ICC event stats as useless and at the same time they swear by 73-52 when talk shifts to India-Pakistan comparison and try to water down the 6-0 WC streak ... funny people
    Cherry picking is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position. It is a kind of fallacy of selective attention, the most common example of which is the confirmation bias.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Can you tell us some batsmen that have played a better inngs than the 133* vs SL and 183 Vs Pak ? Both in chases and Not in bilateral ODI's ?
    Consistency matters. Anyone can come up with a great innings or two (not that they don't matter) but being a consistent contributor to the team in multi team series and tournaments is just a whole new level of performance, something which Kohli hasn't been able to attain, not even close.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Consistency matters. Anyone can come up with a great innings or two (not that they don't matter) .
    Can you show some of these innings ....


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Can you show some of these innings ....
    Why should I when that's not even my point? In the same breath.. can you give any rational explanation as to why Kohli averages 17 in 9 matches against Aus in tournaments as opposed to averaging 80 in 14 bilateral matches?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Can you tell us some batsmen that have played a better inngs than the 133* vs SL and 183 Vs Pak ? Both in chases and Not in bilateral ODI's ?
    Good innings but whoever doubted Kohli chasing down any total against Sri Lanka and/or on a flat road? Where are his match-winning innings against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo23 View Post


    hilarious self contradiction
    I have to spell everything out for you guys, eh? Pitches in Australia are flat but the fact that Kohli doesn't have a matchwinning century in that country still goes against him. That is four countries where Kohli has yet to win a game against the home team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    Pitches r flat almost everywhere these days.
    Did Kohli start playing international cricket a couple of years ago? Was that hilarious choke at the 2015 WC semi-final his debut match? Pitches have been flatter across the board since the last World Cup but no matter how flat a pitch, overhead conditions can change it into a bowlers' paradise. No where is this truer than in England and South Africa, where Kohli has predictably failed.

  13. #93
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    Whether it's the South African bowlers in South Africa, the English in England or Pakistan in India, Kohli has consistently failed against seam and swing bowling. There isn't any doubt that he's a bunny against the moving ball, even his supporters have no choice but to agree.

    However, his choking and lack of match-winning ability even on the flat pitches of Australia must really hurt.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Why should I when that's not even my point? In the same breath..
    because these are difficult things to do .... if it was so easy everyone would have similar inngs or five.

    can you give any rational explanation as to why Kohli averages 17 in 9 matches against Aus in tournaments as opposed to averaging 80 in 14 bilateral matches?
    Such anomalies are nothing new in cricket ... lookup Shane Warnes, Ponting, Lara Test match stats in India .


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Whether it's the South African bowlers in South Africa, the English in England or Pakistan in India, Kohli has consistently failed against seam and swing bowling. There isn't any doubt that he's a bunny against the moving ball, even his supporters have no choice but to agree.

    However, his choking and lack of match-winning ability even on the flat pitches of Australia must really hurt.
    So Aussie bowling is worse than Pakistan's bowling (in India) ?


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    because these are difficult things to do .... if it was so easy everyone would have similar inngs or five.
    Of course not. Inzamam Ul Haq played quite possibly the best innings in WC history in the SF of the 92 World WC. Still it doesn't excuse him of his horrendous performances in the subsequent WCs and he is rightly considered a failure in World Cups.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Such anomalies are nothing new in cricket ... lookup Shane Warnes, Ponting, Lara Test match stats in India .
    It's not an anomaly though. It's much closer to being the norm:

    80 Vs 17 - Aus
    47 Vs 15 - England
    73 Vs 8 - NZ

    That's your 3 out of Top 6 teams. Colossal failure at tournaments despite being an overwhelming success at Bilaterals against the same team.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    So Aussie bowling is worse than Pakistan's bowling (in India) ?
    Once again, your age is getting the best of you. The conditions supported swing and seam when Pakistan toured India last and Kohli, as always, failed. Australia bowled to him on some insanely flat tracks and were missing their best bowlers.

    Kohli won't last more than five balls against any of Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins in bowling friendly conditions.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    No. Amla is actually the deputy choker in chief, right next to Kohli tbh. Both are like brothers in that regard.

    And of course a 3 team tournament is infinitely more significant than a bilateral series any day. In a bilateral of 5 matches, you can win 3 matches by 1 run and lose the other two by 200 runs and still be the winner of the series while in the case of 3 team tournaments, every match with the extent of the victory/ defeat as well comes into play and the tournament actually isn't over right until the final whereas a bilateral can end in barely more than half the matches with the others going redundant. It's a no brainer.

    Kohli isn't event the best in his own team in that regard. Dhawan is, who averages 50+. He's the best Indian ODI player of this generation by some distance. Sadly, he doesn't score as many hundreds as Kohli in pointless bilaterals so he won't get the publicity that Kohli gets.
    Firstly even in your "filtered" stat Virat averages ~42 , not 14 so easy there .

    I really dont understand the problem with winning 3 matches by one run and losing the other 2 by 200 .
    Like your bilateral even a multi-team tournament teams play a lot of inconsequential matches , the last matches of most tournaments are between teams which are already qualified for already been knocked out and its even worse with ICC/WC .

    Dhawan better than Virat , really ? am out of here


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Once again, your age is getting the best of you. The conditions supported swing and seam when Pakistan toured India last and Kohli, as always, failed. Australia bowled to him on some insanely flat tracks and were missing their best bowlers.

    Kohli won't last more than five balls against any of Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins in bowling friendly conditions.
    How did that work out in the T20 World cup when Amir was supposed to make him look like a novice. Ohhh wait T20Is don't count. ... NOR Does the 1st match in the CT ... nor does the Asia cup nor do the others .... see the pattern

    BTW aren't Indian pitches ALL FLAT
    Last edited by Tusker; 22nd August 2017 at 16:22.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post

    It's not an anomaly though. It's much closer to being the norm:

    80 Vs 17 - Aus
    47 Vs 15 - England
    73 Vs 8 - NZ

    That's your 3 out of Top 6 teams. Colossal failure at tournaments despite being an overwhelming success at Bilaterals against the same team.
    I just realized that between eng and nz there are only 5 matches. ... in the stat you posted. Only one match vs nz .... lol

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    I just realized that between eng and nz there are only 5 matches. ... in the stat you posted. Only one match vs nz .... lol
    So? Fail once. Fail twice.. fail five times? And 9 times vs Aus?

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    Firstly even in your "filtered" stat Virat averages ~42 , not 14 so easy there .

    I really dont understand the problem with winning 3 matches by one run and losing the other 2 by 200 .
    Like your bilateral even a multi-team tournament teams play a lot of inconsequential matches , the last matches of most tournaments are between teams which are already qualified for already been knocked out and its even worse with ICC/WC .

    Dhawan better than Virat , really ? am out of here
    I find this strange. Pak fans used to do the same with Sachin as well. they used to say something like Dravid was better than Sachin. But when comparison is between Ponting and Dravid, they talk about Dravid's horrible strike rate, inability to score against warne-mcgrath, etc.,

    Now he says Dhawan is better than Kohli. If the comparison is between Dhawan and Root or Smith, he will bring Dhawan's average in non ICC matches or not being consistent, etc. as reason to put Dhawan down. really strange.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    So? Fail once. Fail twice.. fail five times? And 9 times vs Aus?
    Fail 5 time's? Take a look at who was the highest scorer in the 2013 CT Final ... which was a low scoring match.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    Don't understand why some Pakistani fans try to show national pride by hating on Indians. Love for Pakistan does not mean hate for India. Kohli is an established ATG in ODIs and quite possibly the best ODI batsman of all time after Viv.
    and the argument of not performing in finals even if it was true ... india rides on him to get to the finals ... how is that discounted

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by joseph gomes View Post
    kohli now has 45+ odi average in every single nation he has played

    australia- 50.05
    bangladesh- 80.83
    england- 52.46
    india- 58.39
    new zealand- 62.16
    south africa- 45.57
    sri lanka- 47.31
    west indies- 45.46
    zimbabwe- 60.83

    it's the same as tendulkar's test record (40+ average in all countries)
    update

  26. #106
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    How about his averages against each opposition?

  27. #107
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    Kohli ended up with a fifty in his 50th T20I, and in the process, he even went past McCullum as the highest run-scorer in T20I run-chases.
    In the ODI series he went past Ponting in ODI in terms of centuries, 30 ODI centuries and just 189 games to his name. Still can play for more 100 games one thinks.
    Even if he scores 1 century per 10 games from now on he gonna get 40 odd 100s in ODI.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    In an era of tons of pointless bilateral ODIs, what really sets batsmen apart are their performances in multi team tournaments where every match right until the final has much more meaning than the bilaterals with the NRR in the equation as well.

    Virat Kohli's stats in tournaments of 3 teams or more against the Top 6 teams:



    Meanwhile, Steven Smith, a batsman considered as a vastly inferior ODI batsman to Kohli has these performances in that regard:



    It's hilarious really. Kohli is nowhere even Smith as an ODI batsman on the basis of performances in matches that actually matter. Kohli can score hundreds upon hundreds and average 300 in all of these useless bilaterals but as soon as the pressure of a tournament is on, the golden boy CHOKES. Not even one of the Top 5 ODI batsmen of this generation. The hype is just so so unwarranted.
    how convenient that out of the 22 match sample space for Steve Smith, not even an adequately large sample for any analysis, nearly 50% of those matches are played at home, in Australia.

    on the other hand, for kohli, the sample is much larger: 49. though still not the requisite 50 minimum desired ideal sample size, it is a much more robust sample. and above all, only 10% of those matches have been played at home.

  29. #109
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    The more Kohli performs, the more it is proved in the minds of some here that Kohli is a mediocre player. I fervently wish that they will never get a batsman as mediocre as him for their team. Let them be blessed with ATGs. Indians are happy with such ridiculously ordinary non ATG batsmen as Tendulkar and Kohli.
    Last edited by squarecut; 6th September 2017 at 19:59.

  30. #110
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    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.
    Averaged 48 in 2011.

    He'll be fine.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.
    And if he performs (like last tour in 2013) and we win you will say Steyn is off color, Rabada is over rated, Philander is past it, Abbott is gone because of kolpak deal, ABD's mind is not with test format, Amla is ageing, QdK is in consistent, Faf is overrated and overall RSA is a poor team now


    ...

  33. #113
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    In brief, all teams that lose to India (read almost every team) are rubbish.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.

    If he does win a few games the pitches will become flat or the bowling attack will be labeled as rubbish by you anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.
    What would happen if he scores 150 in a match? Flat pitch or bad bowlers?

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    What would happen if he scores 150 in a match? Flat pitch or bad bowlers?
    Both, not to forget (BCC)ICC owned neutral umpires & DRS.
    Last edited by R0H1T; 7th September 2017 at 09:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    Averaged 48 in 2011.

    He'll be fine.
    And around 16 in 2013/14. He has yet to record a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away, lest we forget. Averages in the 20s in the matches that India has won against those countries, away.


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  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    And around 16 in 2013/14. He has yet to record a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away, lest we forget. Averages in the 20s in the matches that India has won against those countries, away.
    Played 2 matches but it should be of least concern to you as long as you can bash him in any possible way.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    And around 16 in 2013/14. He has yet to record a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away, lest we forget. Averages in the 20s in the matches that India has won against those countries, away.
    He can not and never will score a century against pak in an away match . He has got hundreds in australia where the team failed to win which was not his fault. He has not been great in england against them but i am sure he will improve. Also in south africa he had played well in 2011 with a match winning knock though not a century. We will see in this series though and then wait for your replies which have already been predicted by other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    And around 16 in 2013/14. He has yet to record a single match-winning hundred against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away, lest we forget. Averages in the 20s in the matches that India has won against those countries, away.
    The stats you're using to prove your point are not really indicative of much.

    Firstly, how can he play against Pakistan away? He's made two hundreds in the Asia Cup and World Cup against Pakistan and they were both at neutral venus.

    The 'average in the 20s' bit is based on eight matches over a seven year career....

    He has made three hundreds in England and Australia and set up the match well for his team - his team failed to capitalise.

    Not saying that these points are way off the mark - he has won his team matches single-handedly elsewhere so he should be able to do it in Australia, England and South Africa too. Plus, the last tour of Australia saw him play against a second string attack yet he couldn't deliver. But these stats are manipulative to make it seem like he's been a complete failure in these countries which is not true.


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  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    The stats you're using to prove your point are not really indicative of much.

    Firstly, how can he play against Pakistan away? He's made two hundreds in the Asia Cup and World Cup against Pakistan and they were both at neutral venus.

    The 'average in the 20s' bit is based on eight matches over a seven year career....

    He has made three hundreds in England and Australia and set up the match well for his team - his team failed to capitalise.

    Not saying that these points are way off the mark - he has won his team matches single-handedly elsewhere so he should be able to do it in Australia, England and South Africa too. Plus, the last tour of Australia saw him play against a second string attack yet he couldn't deliver. But these stats are manipulative to make it seem like he's been a complete failure in these countries which is not true.
    These stats just strengthen something most cricket viewers already know: Virat Kohli is quite susceptible to the moving ball and high-quality pace bowling in general. Scoring match-winning century after century on home pitches, that are absolutely in favor of the batsman is quite different to scoring match-winning hundreds away on pitches helpful to the pace bowlers.

    In Australia, where the pitches are just as flat as the ones found in India, he has been out-gunned by the likes of Warner, Smith and Maxwell. In South Africa and England, he's been defeated by the moving ball. It's not the country as much as it is the conditions. When Pakistan last toured India, the conditions were bowler-friendly and we all remember what happened.

    Even though he himself is quite supportive of Pakistan, the fact that he has never played Ajmal, Amir, Afridi, Junaid, Irfan, Gul, etc in their home conditions (UAE, not Pakistan) means he hasn't been tested enough. Ajmal was the #1 ODI bowler during his prime, Pakistan are the current CT winners and have generally had a top-quality bowling attack throughout Kohli's career. This is a big test he has inadvertently dodged.

    This is similar to the criticism leveled against the likes of Dennis Lille (Indian subcontinent) and Younis Khan (Australia) when they are accused of not being tested in certain conditions, albeit in test cricket.


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  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teshi98 View Post
    Played 2 matches but it should be of least concern to you as long as you can bash him in any possible way.
    Hopefully the five match ODI series that comes after the tests will be enough time for Kohli to display his class.


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  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Hopefully the five match ODI series that comes after the tests will be enough time for Kohli to display his class.
    Yes it should be enough for him and he is most likely going to display it as well

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    These stats just strengthen something most cricket viewers already know: Virat Kohli is quite susceptible to the moving ball and high-quality pace bowling in general. Scoring match-winning century after century on home pitches, that are absolutely in favor of the batsman is quite different to scoring match-winning hundreds away on pitches helpful to the pace bowlers.

    In Australia, where the pitches are just as flat as the ones found in India, he has been out-gunned by the likes of Warner, Smith and Maxwell. In South Africa and England, he's been defeated by the moving ball. It's not the country as much as it is the conditions. When Pakistan last toured India, the conditions were bowler-friendly and we all remember what happened.

    Even though he himself is quite supportive of Pakistan, the fact that he has never played Ajmal, Amir, Afridi, Junaid, Irfan, Gul, etc in their home conditions (UAE, not Pakistan) means he hasn't been tested enough. Ajmal was the #1 ODI bowler during his prime, Pakistan are the current CT winners and have generally had a top-quality bowling attack throughout Kohli's career. This is a big test he has inadvertently dodged.

    This is similar to the criticism leveled against the likes of Dennis Lille (Indian subcontinent) and Younis Khan (Australia) when they are accused of not being tested in certain conditions, albeit in test cricket.
    Despite Ajmal's exploits, for much of his career specially prior to the 2015 World Cup, Pakistan was a very poor team in UAE in ODIs and frequently lost series. We actually did better outside UAE during that time-frame. Anyway, Kohli can not decide whether India plays Pakistan or not and where they do play. He has two hundreds against us (one against Ajmal and co at the peak of their powers) and a very impressive knock in a World T20 match where Amir was swinging the ball all over the place.

    However, it's true that he has not been able to replicate his feats against the best bowlers on a consistent basis, specially against fast bowlers. His overall record in Eng/Aus/SA is inferior to his overall record which suggests that he can't deliver at the same rate against the best bowlers. But, he's just 28 years old and has time to rectify that.


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  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    These stats just strengthen something most cricket viewers already know: Virat Kohli is quite susceptible to the moving ball and high-quality pace bowling in general. Scoring match-winning century after century on home pitches, that are absolutely in favor of the batsman is quite different to scoring match-winning hundreds away on pitches helpful to the pace bowlers.
    So Ashwin, Jadeja, BK , Bumrah are the best ODI bowlers then ? Right ?


    In Australia, where the pitches are just as flat as the ones found in India, he has been out-gunned by the likes of Warner, Smith and Maxwell. In South Africa and England, he's been defeated by the moving ball. It's not the country as much as it is the conditions. When Pakistan last toured India, the conditions were bowler-friendly and we all remember what happened.

    Even though he himself is quite supportive of Pakistan, the fact that he has never played Ajmal, Amir, Afridi, Junaid, Irfan, Gul, etc in their home conditions (UAE, not Pakistan) means he hasn't been tested enough. Ajmal was the #1 ODI bowler during his prime, Pakistan are the current CT winners and have generally had a top-quality bowling attack throughout Kohli's career. This is a big test he has inadvertently dodged.

    This is similar to the criticism leveled against the likes of Dennis Lille (Indian subcontinent) and Younis Khan (Australia) when they are accused of not being tested in certain conditions, albeit in test cricket.
    So Pak have a better bowling than Aus , SAF and Eng ?


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  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Hopefully the five match ODI series that comes after the tests will be enough time for Kohli to display his class.
    You really want him to fail, don't you? Fairly disappointing but not surprising.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Despite Ajmal's exploits, for much of his career specially prior to the 2015 World Cup, Pakistan was a very poor team in UAE in ODIs and frequently lost series. We actually did better outside UAE during that time-frame. Anyway, Kohli can not decide whether India plays Pakistan or not and where they do play. He has two hundreds against us (one against Ajmal and co at the peak of their powers) and a very impressive knock in a World T20 match where Amir was swinging the ball all over the place.

    However, it's true that he has not been able to replicate his feats against the best bowlers on a consistent basis, specially against fast bowlers. His overall record in Eng/Aus/SA is inferior to his overall record which suggests that he can't deliver at the same rate against the best bowlers. But, he's just 28 years old and has time to rectify that.
    Any batsman will have easier time scoring against inferior bowlers. That's the case with 99% of batsmen even if they are ATGs.


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  48. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Despite Ajmal's exploits, for much of his career specially prior to the 2015 World Cup, Pakistan was a very poor team in UAE in ODIs and frequently lost series. We actually did better outside UAE during that time-frame. Anyway, Kohli can not decide whether India plays Pakistan or not and where they do play. He has two hundreds against us (one against Ajmal and co at the peak of their powers) and a very impressive knock in a World T20 match where Amir was swinging the ball all over the place.

    However, it's true that he has not been able to replicate his feats against the best bowlers on a consistent basis, specially against fast bowlers. His overall record in Eng/Aus/SA is inferior to his overall record which suggests that he can't deliver at the same rate against the best bowlers. But, he's just 28 years old and has time to rectify that.
    It's not really the best bowlers but difficult conditions. Kohli has smashed the Australian attack - albeit one that wasn't at full strength - all around the park in India. Same goes for England and like you mentioned, Pakistan in that Asia cup match. He can take on any attack in the world as long as it is in his comfort-zone but once he leaves it, he becomes prone to failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    You really want him to fail, don't you? Fairly disappointing but not surprising.
    No, I just want this to cleared up. Kohli is not deserving of all this praise if he doesn't fulfill the above-mentioned criteria. However, if he does have a scintillating series against South Africa and England, he does not deserve to be criticized.


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  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It's not really the best bowlers but difficult conditions. Kohli has smashed the Australian attack - albeit one that wasn't at full strength - all around the park in India. Same goes for England and like you mentioned, Pakistan in that Asia cup match. He can take on any attack in the world as long as it is in his comfort-zone but once he leaves it, he becomes prone to failure.



    No, I just want this to cleared up. Kohli is not deserving of all this praise if he doesn't fulfill the above-mentioned criteria. However, if he does have a scintillating series against South Africa and England, he does not deserve to be criticized.
    Kohli had a great Test series vs AUS in AUS so credit where due as well and in NZ to, neither are easy places to tour for batsman
    Last edited by shaz619; 8th September 2017 at 19:47.

  50. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    It's not really the best bowlers but difficult conditions. Kohli has smashed the Australian attack - albeit one that wasn't at full strength - all around the park in India. Same goes for England and like you mentioned, Pakistan in that Asia cup match. He can take on any attack in the world as long as it is in his comfort-zone but once he leaves it, he becomes prone to failure.



    No, I just want this to cleared up. Kohli is not deserving of all this praise if he doesn't fulfill the above-mentioned criteria. However, if he does have a scintillating series against South Africa and England, he does not deserve to be criticized.
    Get your excuses ready because recent SA pitches for ODI's are roads where 300 is the norm and people like Miller are smashing centuries for fun
    Last edited by hadi123; 8th September 2017 at 20:37.

  51. #131
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    Dunno about ICC tournaments but Kohli will rip out any bowling attack in any country. His average has risen by 5 points since Since Jan 2016

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.
    He will surely perform well. But u won't acknowledge it.

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    These stats just strengthen something most cricket viewers already know: Virat Kohli is quite susceptible to the moving ball and high-quality pace bowling in general. Scoring match-winning century after century on home pitches, that are absolutely in favor of the batsman is quite different to scoring match-winning hundreds away on pitches helpful to the pace bowlers.
    You don't watch cricket, do you? Indian pitches, if you would have cared to notice, are more often than not good cricket pitches with even 260 being defended a handful of times (in the last year and so). Not many flat pitches. And if you were really watching cricket, you wouldn't call Aus, SA or England helpful to fast bowlers. Just absolute ignorance.
    Last edited by UN talkz; 14th November 2017 at 14:14.

  54. #134
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    Its clear from comments above just how many people are having trouble accepting Kholis stellar record mostly out of jealousy. The guys has 31 ODI tons and in all likelyhood will end up with over 50. He is definitely an ODI great. Tests the story is slightly different.

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Can't wait to see Kohli bat in South Africa again. Given the ATG that he is, we can expect him to help India win a few games there.
    More than his performances, you would like to vomit your venom against him.

  56. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakhs View Post
    Its clear from comments above just how many people are having trouble accepting Kholis stellar record mostly out of jealousy. The guys has 31 ODI tons and in all likelyhood will end up with over 50. He is definitely an ODI great. Tests the story is slightly different.
    32 ODI Centuries


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  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeeteshssaxena View Post
    He will surely perform well. But u won't acknowledge it.
    I will. I expect him to do well.

    Quote Originally Posted by rashmin View Post
    More than his performances, you would like to vomit your venom against him.
    Nice use of imagery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    You don't watch cricket, do you? Indian pitches, if you would have cared to notice, are more often than not good cricket pitches with even 260 being defended a handful of times (in the last year and so). Not many flat pitches. And if you were really watching cricket, you wouldn't call Aus, SA or England helpful to fast bowlers. Just absolute ignorance.
    Indian pitches are good cricket pitches? Lol. I've watched 300 and 350+ scored enough times in India to know that your ODI pitches are a disgrace. Yes, the last series against South Africa and Australia had a couple of sporting pitches but one would have to be a total dummy to call Indian pitches sporting, in general.

    South Africa and England offer the most help to the fast bowlers. I never said Australia have anything other than roads.

  58. #138
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    Virat is not even 30 years of age. 9000+ ODI runs (overall ~ 15000 runs), averages ~50 across all 3 formats with 49 International centuries.

    Does he need to prove anything else?

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandMaster View Post
    Virat is not even 30 years of age. 9000+ ODI runs (overall ~ 15000 runs), averages ~50 across all 3 formats with 49 International centuries.

    Does he need to prove anything else?
    My friend! Even if he scores 100 tons, he would still be an inferior bastmen to our Pak brothers in this forum. ;) I feel sad that Kohli is an Indian bastman! Imagine he was a Pak player with such stats, our brothers would have made him Messiah of World Cricket by now ;)
    Last edited by Tyler Durden; 15th November 2017 at 05:06.

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Indian pitches are good cricket pitches? Lol. I've watched 300 and 350+ scored enough times in India to know that your ODI pitches are a disgrace. Yes, the last series against South Africa and Australia had a couple of sporting pitches but one would have to be a total dummy to call Indian pitches sporting, in general.

    South Africa and England offer the most help to the fast bowlers. I never said Australia have anything other than roads.
    there is just so much delusion in those four lines. Poor old stereotyping.

    Did you watch the NZ series last year and this year? or the Kolkata match vs. England? That SA series actually had some of the flattest pitches we have had (except probably in Chennai), if you thought those were sporting.
    Then wow. After that SA series, the pitches have more or less been excellent cricket pitches. And a high score can also mean good quality batting. Like in Kolkata vs england and in Wnkhade vs NZ. These were far far from flat pitches. I have actually started to watch ODIs a lot more because of our pitches.

    also England and SA pitches are bowling friendly? What??? They, and England is particular, have absolute pancakes and anybody who has watched ODIs in last two years would know that.

    And why do you hate logic and rationality Bilal? I mean it is fine if you absolutely hate Virat and India, but never leave logic behind my friend.
    Last edited by hadi123; 15th November 2017 at 13:24.

  61. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    there is just so much delusion in those four lines. Poor old stereotyping.

    Did you watch the NZ series last year and this year? or the Kolkata match vs. England? That SA series actually had some of the flattest pitches we have had (except probably in Chennai), if you thought those were sporting.
    Then wow. After that SA series, the pitches have more or less been excellent cricket pitches. And a high score can also mean good quality batting. Like in Kolkata vs england and in Wnkhade vs NZ. These were far far from flat pitches. I have actually started to watch ODIs a lot more because of our pitches.

    also England and SA pitches are bowling friendly? What??? They, and England is particular, have absolute pancakes and anybody who has watched ODIs in last two years would know that.

    And why do you hate logic and rationality Bilal? I mean it is fine if you absolutely hate Virat and India, but never leave logic behind my friend.
    In my last post I meant to type New Zealand, not South Africa.

    That is all well and good but the post-2015 WC caveat makes no sense because Kohli has yet to play an ODI series in England and South Africa since then and my posts were about his career overall, which has mostly been about enormous success in Asia and Australia and failure in England, South Africa and almost any other time that he has been faced with the moving ball.

    He has changed his technique so perhaps this will allow him to become the all-conditions player that someone as hyped as him should be.
    Last edited by hadi123; 15th November 2017 at 13:24.


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  62. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    In my last post I meant to type New Zealand, not South Africa.

    That is all well and good but the post-2015 WC caveat makes no sense because Kohli has yet to play an ODI series in England and South Africa since then and my posts were about his career overall, which has mostly been about enormous success in Asia and Australia and failure in England, South Africa and almost any other time that he has been faced with the moving ball.

    He has changed his technique so perhaps this will allow him to become the all-conditions player that someone as hyped as him should be.
    How has he failed in SA and England? He averages in high 40s there. But wait now you will point out a couple of bilateral ODI series 4 years (where again pitches were absolutely flat in England, but Virat was in bad form). But oh, you don't consider bilaterals of any value. You are caught in a dilemma. If you follow your beliefs, then Virat has done well. But wait that goes against your belief. So, what is stronger, your belief or the hate for Virat? This is getting interesting.

    Also, if you want to see players against moving ball. Don't except to see that in England or SA even this time around. Their pitches are flat. Have been for a long long time. If you want to watch quality ODI cricket, watch the India ODIs nowadays. And Virat dominated NZ in 2016 and 2017 on quality wickets. He will definitely do well on away tours. But then you can say that their pitches are flat. So yeah, he will definitely not be pleasing you.

    As far as all condition player goes, I could give you a lot of really good Virat innings on good cricket pitches but what is the point.

  63. #143
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    Kohli is a great batsman! Anybody who says otherwise is just bitter or dishonest.

  64. #144
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    Has Kohli won a single away series with the bat vs Australia, South Africa, England, New Zealand?

    Runs in those conditions aren't enough given the pitches are flat everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Has Kohli won a single away series with the bat vs Australia, South Africa, England, New Zealand?

    Runs in those conditions aren't enough given the pitches are flat everywhere.
    I've answered this in a previous thread.

    It's the bowlers who have let him down repeatedly. Multiple big scores where he pushed the team past 300 weren't defended.

    Indian bowlers do well at home and then fall apart in alien conditions.


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  66. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    I've answered this in a previous thread.

    It's the bowlers who have let him down repeatedly. Multiple big scores where he pushed the team past 300 weren't defended.

    Indian bowlers do well at home and then fall apart in alien conditions.
    That's not necessarily true, what's definitely a pattern is that our bowlers struggle bowling first in must win games especially on flat tracks, cue in the 2003 WC disaster & this CT finale. In games where we've had to defend mediocre totals, on non pancake tracks our record is as good as anyone else out there, if not better viz 1983 final, 1985 B&H cup, 2008 CB series, 2013 CT final et al.

  67. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    I've answered this in a previous thread.

    It's the bowlers who have let him down repeatedly. Multiple big scores where he pushed the team past 300 weren't defended.

    Indian bowlers do well at home and then fall apart in alien conditions.
    He has failed to outbat those teams in those conditions like he does it in India with a tremendous ease.

    To be considered as one of the GOAT which he is talked about, he has to win few series against good ODI sides with the bat away from home and dominate a 50 over world cup.

  68. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    He has failed to outbat those teams in those conditions like he does it in India with a tremendous ease.

    To be considered as one of the GOAT which he is talked about, he has to win few series against good ODI sides with the bat away from home and dominate a 50 over world cup.
    This is true in Australia. However, in England and South Africa he's failed against the home teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    How has he failed in SA and England? He averages in high 40s there. But wait now you will point out a couple of bilateral ODI series 4 years (where again pitches were absolutely flat in England, but Virat was in bad form). But oh, you don't consider bilaterals of any value. You are caught in a dilemma. If you follow your beliefs, then Virat has done well. But wait that goes against your belief. So, what is stronger, your belief or the hate for Virat? This is getting interesting.

    Also, if you want to see players against moving ball. Don't except to see that in England or SA even this time around. Their pitches are flat. Have been for a long long time. If you want to watch quality ODI cricket, watch the India ODIs nowadays. And Virat dominated NZ in 2016 and 2017 on quality wickets. He will definitely do well on away tours. But then you can say that their pitches are flat. So yeah, he will definitely not be pleasing you.

    As far as all condition player goes, I could give you a lot of really good Virat innings on good cricket pitches but what is the point.
    Bashing Bangladesh and Sri Lanka in England is no achievement because the conditions are alien for the opposition, just like they are alien for Kohli.

    Against the home teams, Kohli has failed and is yet to score a single century in wins.
    Last edited by UN talkz; 15th November 2017 at 16:21.

  69. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted123 View Post
    Has Kohli won a single away series with the bat vs Australia, South Africa, England, New Zealand?

    Runs in those conditions aren't enough given the pitches are flat everywhere.
    Yes he hasn't won there but not many teams does that. Everyone is a HTB these days.

    In this decade, Australia haven't loss any odi series at home.

    SA lost only one series at home.

    India lost only two series at home and I think they have already played all matches at home for this decade.

    Other teams haven't been that great in odis.

  70. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Away nations

    Australia- 50.05
    Bangladesh- 80.83
    England- 52.46
    New Zealand- 62.16
    South Africa- 45.57
    Sri Lanka- 35.56
    West Indies- 45.46
    Zimbabwe- 60.83

    Guess where he has the worst average? His favourite opponent, Sri Lanka LOL. The only place where is average is below 45, by the way

    And finally, India- 58.39

    Away average overall- 48.89
    Neutral average- 60.03
    These are awesome numbers.

    What a player.

  71. #151
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    Brilliant numbers.

  72. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    This is true in Australia. However, in England and South Africa he's failed against the home teams.



    Bashing Bangladesh and Sri Lanka in England is no achievement because the conditions are alien for the opposition, just like they are alien for Kohli.

    Against the home teams, Kohli has failed and is yet to score a single century in wins.
    He averages 45+ in NZ, England and SA against the top 5 bowling attacks. Your arguments could not be more invalid. And he can't do much when our bowling has been horrible. He has scored plenty in those countries and that was 4 years ago, expect him to score loads in the next year and two.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    The way you contradict yourself Bilal, you can have an argument with yourself.

  73. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    This is true in Australia. However, in England and South Africa he's failed against the home teams.



    Bashing Bangladesh and Sri Lanka in England is no achievement because the conditions are alien for the opposition, just like they are alien for Kohli.

    Against the home teams, Kohli has failed and is yet to score a single century in wins.
    Adding to my above post

    P.S. - Scoring against SL has probably been more valuable in the last 8 years. England has had a horrible ODI team (with average bowlers) and SL has been more than decent. But we know you like England solely because Virat has an average record against them. Doesn't change the fact though

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    He averages 45+ in NZ, England and SA against the top 5 bowling attacks. Your arguments could not be more invalid. And he can't do much when our bowling has been horrible. He has scored plenty in those countries and that was 4 years ago, expect him to score loads in the next year and two.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    The way you contradict yourself Bilal, you can have an argument with yourself.
    The arguments are pretty valid but I can't really help you see the truth if you choose not to believe it. He has been average against England and South Africa away from home, outbatted in Australia and almost any other time he has been met with conditions that favor swing and seam, he's failed. The exception proving the rule being his century in South Africa in tests.

    He was exposed yet again today, by Lakmal of all people. However, I suppose he's going to load in South Africa and England next year. Let's see if your bold claim is proven right.

  75. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    The arguments are pretty valid but I can't really help you see the truth if you choose not to believe it. He has been average against England and South Africa away from home, outbatted in Australia and almost any other time he has been met with conditions that favor swing and seam, he's failed. The exception proving the rule being his century in South Africa in tests.

    He was exposed yet again today, by Lakmal of all people. However, I suppose he's going to load in South Africa and England next year. Let's see if your bold claim is proven right.
    Not a bold claim really, given how he has been batting in ODIs in last 3 years and how odi pitches generally have played in SA and England. Bold would be to say the opposite.

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