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  1. #1
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    Time for England to sack Trevor Bayliss

    It's time for Andrew Strauss to fix his mistake, and get rid of Trevor Bayliss.

    England have now lost 6 of their last 7 Tests. Collapsed in 12 of the last 18 innings.

    And the cause is always the same: Bayliss's suicidal "Aggressive Batting" mantra.

    Sure, we are a lot more competitive in ODI's than we were before. But we English couldn't care less about ODI's - it's like picking an England football manager according to how well he coaches tiddlywinks.

    We are four months from an Ashes series against a seriously rubbish Australia. Yes, they could theoretically field four excellent quicks. But they were humiliated last year by Sri Lanka and South Africa, and only beat Pakistan 3-0 courtesy of terrible Pakistani selection and (non-existent) preparation.

    This is how Bayliss's Test record looks.

    NZ 1-1 home
    Australia 3-2 home (how did we lose two Tests to a rabble we bowled out for 60?)
    Pakistan 0-2 away
    South Africa 2-1 away (no Steyn, and "led" by Amla)
    Sri Lanka 2-0 home
    Pakistan 2-2 home
    Bangladesh 1-1 away
    India 0-4 away

    Won 11
    Drawn 4
    Lost 13

    Sorry, it's not good enough.

    Bayliss and his kamikaze batting have got to go.

  2. #2
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    I'm listening to Michael Vaughan on TMS.

    Making exactly the same points: excessive risks while batting.

    When FAF is around, South Africa sell their wickets dearly, and win.

    But we English throw the bat like drunken sailors.

    Look at our players. We should be the top team in the world. But our stupid reckless mentality keeps throwing it away.

    This isn't limited overs rubbish for children. This is Test cricket, and it's all about discipline.

  3. #3
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    i don't think it is the coach. basically eng have only one world class batsman (root) and he cannot carry the team on his back all the time. if it wasn't for his epic 180 at lords they would have lost that match as well.

    cook ballance jennings are all average batsmen and stokes moeen bairstow cannot do much if the top order repeatedly fails

    eng needs two top batsmen alongside root otherwise they will continue to collapse

    i can't wait for our test series in eng next year. we were unlucky not to win last year but next year with an attack of amir hasan junaid yasir and shadab against this mediocre lineup i am very confident we will whitewash eng.

  4. #4
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    England have lost six of their last eight Tests, 8 of their last 13, and, since 2015, they've now lost on eight separate occasions in the very next match after pulling off a victory, England test side on the slide. But is it just down to the coach? players and selectors have to take some blame as well.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amjid Javed View Post
    England have lost six of their last eight Tests, 8 of their last 13, and, since 2015, they've now lost on eight separate occasions in the very next match after pulling off a victory, England test side on the slide. But is it just down to the coach? players and selectors have to take some blame as well.
    I blame the coach because we keep playing reckless cricket.

    We didn't even last 100 overs in the MATCH at Trent Bridge.

    There's no fight.

    The selection is poor too. I don't care how bad Haseeb Hameed's form is: he opens, full stop.

    Similarly, even before Ballance was first dropped two years ago I said that his technique could not work in Tests.

    1 Cook
    2 Hameed
    3 Jennings
    4 Root
    5 Bairstow
    6 Stokes
    7 Moeen
    8 Woakes
    9 Broad
    10 Finn
    11 Anderson

    And no more of this attacking rubbish.

  6. #6
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    This seems a little reactionary. Removing the coach is not going to solve the problems. Root has just become captain, allow him and Bayliss to develop an understanding.

    Not sure Root should be given so much influence over selections- the selection of Ballance and Dawson have hardly paid dividends.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I blame the coach because we keep playing reckless cricket.

    We didn't even last 100 overs in the MATCH at Trent Bridge.

    There's no fight.

    The selection is poor too. I don't care how bad Haseeb Hameed's form is: he opens, full stop.

    Similarly, even before Ballance was first dropped two years ago I said that his technique could not work in Tests.

    1 Cook
    2 Hameed
    3 Jennings
    4 Root
    5 Bairstow
    6 Stokes
    7 Moeen
    8 Woakes
    9 Broad
    10 Finn
    11 Anderson

    And no more of this attacking rubbish.
    Finn isn't international quality anymore, we have to be looking elsewhere. Hameed is obviously unselectable right now and we've got to be looking at guys like Stoneman and Westley. Picking someone who's getting ripped to shreds by county attacks isn't going to help.

  8. #8
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    English players are mental midgets. This "explosiveness", "aggression" and "positivity" is just a facade to cover that up. The most overrated Test team in the world. Have been mediocre everywhere apart from the South Africa tour which was against a half strength South African side which wasn't there mentally. Even in LOIs they have bottled it twice since the World Cup.


    Kuch to log kahenge
    Logon ka kaam hai kehna

  9. #9
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    We should have appointed Jason Gillespie in the first place.

    Australia have made clear that Justin Langer is their next coach, and Gillespie is now coaching Papua New Guinea.

    Bayliss's "brand" of kamikaze reckless attack is exposed now. The English cricket public has had its doubts for a while, but after today he's even more of a lame duck than Theresa May.

    I can see Cook, Hameed, Root and Bairstow wearing down Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon. But not under Bayliss.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    We should have appointed Jason Gillespie in the first place.

    Australia have made clear that Justin Langer is their next coach, and Gillespie is now coaching Papua New Guinea.

    Bayliss's "brand" of kamikaze reckless attack is exposed now. The English cricket public has had its doubts for a while, but after today he's even more of a lame duck than Theresa May.

    I can see Cook, Hameed, Root and Bairstow wearing down Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Lyon. But not under Bayliss.
    Gillespie's made it pretty clear he wants to spend more time at home hence why he's only taken on the temporary jobs recently. The PNG job is I believe 2 months long with most of the games being played on a tour in Australia. Looks like we're setting up Collingwood as our next coach when he eventually retires.

  11. #11
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    Players need to take responsibility.
    Jennings and Balance don't cut it and the middle order is hit and miss.
    If Trevor was forcing it then Cook would be batting with an improved strike rate too, no?


    If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got #improve

  12. #12
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    All this talk of "positive" and "aggressive" cricket is fine but you still need to graft in Tests. And nobody in this England team is willing to do that.

    To not bat even 100 overs in a Test is unacceptable.

    The top order remains brittle - Strauss and Trott have not been adequately replaced. Keaton Jennings is not convincing, but I'd give him the series. Gary Ballance has a rubbish technique and is a TTF at international level yet keeps getting picked ! How many more innings do the selectors need to see him struggle in for the message to sink in ?!

    Mark Wood has pace but is going the way of Wahab Riaz. "Intimidating spells" and a few played and misses don't cut it - you need wickets at this level.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo23 View Post
    i don't think it is the coach. basically eng have only one world class batsman (root) and he cannot carry the team on his back all the time. if it wasn't for his epic 180 at lords they would have lost that match as well.

    cook ballance jennings are all average batsmen and stokes moeen bairstow cannot do much if the top order repeatedly fails

    eng needs two top batsmen alongside root otherwise they will continue to collapse

    i can't wait for our test series in eng next year. we were unlucky not to win last year but next year with an attack of amir hasan junaid yasir and shadab against this mediocre lineup i am very confident we will whitewash eng.
    The Pakistani batting will struggle and England will probably win as a result.

  14. #14
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    Some points of Junaids points which I don't agree with are that England don't care about LO. Lol that's a myth. They were always disappointed and would make so many changes to try and solve there problems in LO cricket. 2nd point I don't agree with is calling Australia rubbish. Look at how they competed in India compared to England. They would have beaten Pakian regardless of which if your fantasy teams they selected. South Africa have done well in Australia recently so losing to them was no disgrace, the margin of defeat was embarrassing. The losses to Sri Lanka were bad but losing Okefe didn't help. But I don't think England would have done any better than Aussies, there spin playing ability is non exsistant and the less said about there spin attack the better.


    On topic. Baylis has done a good job in LO cricket but in tests as Junaids has mentioned his all aggressive approach is rubbish. I think it is done for flat pitches but pitches that have something in it for the bowlers England batsmen should be more watchful and more careful. If England can get off to a good start Bairstow, Stokes, and Ali could then accelerant and take on tired bowlers. But England have found themselves in trouble early and there middle order has too much to do.

    I would definitely get Hameed back in the team and move Root upto 3. That could help England start better imo.

  15. #15
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    recalling Ballance was a Pakistan esque recall

  16. #16
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    Itni zaldee? We were discussing few months back about the mega transformation.

    I think, TB has to find a balance between longer & shorter format of the game - his batting picks need to be a bit more selective. It's not that a reborn ENG team is ramming around ODI arena.

    Pleple are shocked today, because the Test results are exposed today, but few months back I wrote something on ODI team also - repeating that with little extension -

    Since WC 2015, ENG in ODI

    3-2 NZ (H) - won the decider by DWL
    2-3 AUS (H) - blown away in decider to a AUS team resting few players
    3-1 PAK (N/UAE) - Azhar's team
    2-3 SAF (A) - surrendered a 2-0 lead
    3-0 SR: (H) - should have been 3-1, or 4-1, for the rain & last ball 6 tie
    4-1 PAK (H) - Azhar's team, lost 5th match after 4-0 lead & resting few players
    2-1 BD (A) - 3 very close matches
    1-2 IND (A) - lost the series 2-0
    3-0 WI (A)
    2-1 SAF (H) - won series 2-0, blown in the dead rubber
    3-1 CT (H) - blew opponents in group stages, lost inside 35 overs by 8 wickets in 1st KO hurdle

    I might be missing 1 or 2 pieces here - but this gives me a clear indication of "softi" - minnow bashers, who run away from contest when someone isn't bullied at the initial sight. They'll blow WI at home again 5-0 or 4-1......... then, I hope Aussies solve their issues to put an ODI team that doesn't rest more than 2/3 of their 1st choice players

  17. #17
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    One thing I forgot to add in my post above was that I think it maybe a good idea for Baylis to be in charge of the LO teams and allow someone else to coach the test team.

    Don't know how realistic this but think could help England as Baylis won't change from his aggressive batting approach. One thing I find interesting though is how England and Baylis opt for an all aggressive approach with the bat but will make defensive bowling changes and defensive selections. Bring Ballance back was a safety choice and same with Dawson who isn't a test match cricketer.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Itni zaldee? We were discussing few months back about the mega transformation.

    I think, TB has to find a balance between longer & shorter format of the game - his batting picks need to be a bit more selective. It's not that a reborn ENG team is ramming around ODI arena.

    Pleple are shocked today, because the Test results are exposed today, but few months back I wrote something on ODI team also - repeating that with little extension -

    Since WC 2015, ENG in ODI

    3-2 NZ (H) - won the decider by DWL
    2-3 AUS (H) - blown away in decider to a AUS team resting few players
    3-1 PAK (N/UAE) - Azhar's team
    2-3 SAF (A) - surrendered a 2-0 lead
    3-0 SR: (H) - should have been 3-1, or 4-1, for the rain & last ball 6 tie
    4-1 PAK (H) - Azhar's team, lost 5th match after 4-0 lead & resting few players
    2-1 BD (A) - 3 very close matches
    1-2 IND (A) - lost the series 2-0
    3-0 WI (A)
    2-1 SAF (H) - won series 2-0, blown in the dead rubber
    3-1 CT (H) - blew opponents in group stages, lost inside 35 overs by 8 wickets in 1st KO hurdle

    I might be missing 1 or 2 pieces here - but this gives me a clear indication of "softi" - minnow bashers, who run away from contest when someone isn't bullied at the initial sight. They'll blow WI at home again 5-0 or 4-1......... then, I hope Aussies solve their issues to put an ODI team that doesn't rest more than 2/3 of their 1st choice players

    Australia will beat most teams in LO at home. Don't think it exposes England LO team but may expose 1 or 2 players .


    Hoping for a good series.

  19. #19
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    Fully agree with Junaids the OP.

    England batted cavalierly - and extremely stupidly. This was a test match for crying out loud. Patience was the key on this slow wicket. Instead, England displayed staggering ineptitude and played recklessly. They tried to play like Gilchrist forgetting the fact that Gilchrist batted at number 7 in the last chance saloon position. You cannot bat like Gilchrist in a test match in the top 6 batting positions on a slow wicket.

    Bayliss is the brains behind this approach so he deserves the criticism.
    Last edited by The Googly; 17th July 2017 at 21:20.

  20. #20
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    Lets analyse after the SA series.

    Don't think he is going anywhere to be honest.

    One point mooted on TMS was maybe Paul Farbrace can take a lead role for Tests and Baylis for the ODIs.


    Frank Skinner: Pakistan looked better than this when they were trying to lose.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adil_94 View Post
    recalling Ballance was a Pakistan esque recall
    Can try him at no. 5 if needed. Definitely not a no. 3

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Sure, we are a lot more competitive in ODI's than we were before. But we English couldn't care less about ODI's - it's like picking an England football manager according to how well he coaches tiddlywinks.
    The attendance figures suggest otherwise.

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    Bayliss was brought in for OD cricket.

    They better get different coaches for different formats.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    The attendance figures suggest otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Bayliss was brought in for OD cricket.

    They better get different coaches for different formats.
    Andrew Strauss is like me, the sponsors, the corporate box holders and the people who spend £100 per day per Test ticket.

    Privately educated. Only follows Tests. Follows Rugby Union as much as football. And most importantly.........

    Pays the bills for the ECB.

    You can't survive as England coach if you improve the ODI performance but underachieve in Tests.

    Just read the reader feedback on the online versions of The Times, The Daily Telegraph and even The Guardian.

    Because the reality is that the ECB doesn't really get to choose the coach. Or captain.

    If you lose the support of the MCC you are in trouble. But what really counts is what is said behind closed doors in the private gentleman's clubs: The Athenaeum, Brooks, Boodles, the Carlton, the East India Club, the Garrick and The Reform Club.

    And I can assure you, nobody there is saying "well at least we can score 380 now in ODI's."

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    Bayliss was brought in for OD cricket.

    They better get different coaches for different formats.
    Has he done anything exceptional with ODI team? What I see is few changes in ODI lineup, but that could have been the case after a WC disaster under any other coach. Personally, I didn't like his ODI team composition, neither strategy.

    We are in an era, when there are not many good ODI teams & no outstanding team. PAK, SRL & WI are probably at their lowest in last 20 years, NZ also isn't that strong since WC; ZIM, BD, AFG improved but still never in top bracket. Only you can say IND, AUS & SAF are solid ODI teams. Still, Poms are easily behind these 3 & the day PAK had a right turn of their screw, simply rolled Poms.

    Therefore, I am not sure what ENG team actually has achieved in last 27 months. May be higher W/L, but that's only a function of how many soft matches you are playing. So far, only significant match that I see ENG winning is the 2nd ODI against SAF for a 2-0 lead, when SAF failed to chase probably run a ball 60 with 5/6 wickets at hand.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Has he done anything exceptional with ODI team? What I see is few changes in ODI lineup, but that could have been the case after a WC disaster under any other coach. Personally, I didn't like his ODI team composition, neither strategy.

    We are in an era, when there are not many good ODI teams & no outstanding team. PAK, SRL & WI are probably at their lowest in last 20 years, NZ also isn't that strong since WC; ZIM, BD, AFG improved but still never in top bracket. Only you can say IND, AUS & SAF are solid ODI teams. Still, Poms are easily behind these 3 & the day PAK had a right turn of their screw, simply rolled Poms.

    Therefore, I am not sure what ENG team actually has achieved in last 27 months. May be higher W/L, but that's only a function of how many soft matches you are playing. So far, only significant match that I see ENG winning is the 2nd ODI against SAF for a 2-0 lead, when SAF failed to chase probably run a ball 60 with 5/6 wickets at hand.
    And Pakistan at their lowest won the Champions Trophy 17, thats the kind of talent and potential Pakistan has.

  27. #27
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    Haven't England had a win percentage of around 50% in Tests for like the last 20 years or so?


    Politics trumps intelligence (pun intended).

  28. #28
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    I have made the observation before: Bayliss has more influence on the odi/t20 team results, but his test coaching has been indifferent.

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    Eng fans should get used to these kind of results after they mad selfish player like Root as their captain.
    He ll continue to play for his avg without much positive effect on result.
    Eng need to get rid of
    Cook ( think avg of 38 in last 20 tests with 2 100s only)
    James Anderson (35 years old)
    And other useless players at top

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asim2Good View Post
    Eng fans should get used to these kind of results after they mad selfish player like Root as their captain.
    He ll continue to play for his avg without much positive effect on result.
    Eng need to get rid of
    Cook ( think avg of 38 in last 20 tests with 2 100s only)
    James Anderson (35 years old)
    And other useless players at top
    Care to expand on how Root selfishly plays for his average...?

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    According to George Dobell, England told Surrey that they wouldn't be naming a 13 man squad but if they did, Mark Stoneman would be the 13th man.

    Well England did name a 13 man squad and Mark Stoneman wasn't in the squad at all.

    Only two weeks ago Bayliss said he wouldn't play 8 batsmen as it'd just paper over the cracks. Well he's playing 8 batsmen in this Test.

    He said Moeen Ali would be used as the 2nd spinner, yet here he is the main spinner. Liam Dawson gets called up and dropped whilst England's best spinner in the India tour in Adil Rashid is nowhere to be seen.

    There is no rhyme or reason to England's selection policies. The only constant under Bayliss in Tests has been the batting collapses.

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    Unsure what they picked Malan for. Surely Stoneman was next cab off the rank?

    Jennings is half a class below test level.

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    Maybe but I think selection is an issue in England atm. Like y the heck is Jennings and malan playing and y isn't stoneman and Rashid playing. Also Root at 3 plz
    Team should be
    Cook
    Stoneman
    Root
    Westly
    Bairstow
    Stokes
    Moeen
    Woakes/Roland jones
    Rashid
    Broad
    Anderson

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Unsure what they picked Malan for. Surely Stoneman was next cab off the rank?

    Jennings is half a class below test level.
    Stoneman and Westley were fighting it out for the three spot. Stoneman wasn't selected because they didn't want three lefties in the top order again. To a certain extent, the plan worked: the right-left combo disrupted the SA bowlers which prevented them from gaining rhythm so it was probably the right call.

    I am glad Malan was picked ahead of Dawson. That said, I wish they had played Rashid. That would have added some much needed variety to the bowling attack, and SA are hardly renowned players of spin. But let's be honest, as soon as Woakes is back Malan will probably lose his spot. The team looks unbalanced at the moment- the return of Woakes should help.

    Not sure what Moeen needs to do to be given a chance to bat higher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Has he done anything exceptional with ODI team? What I see is few changes in ODI lineup, but that could have been the case after a WC disaster under any other coach. Personally, I didn't like his ODI team composition, neither strategy.

    We are in an era, when there are not many good ODI teams & no outstanding team. PAK, SRL & WI are probably at their lowest in last 20 years, NZ also isn't that strong since WC; ZIM, BD, AFG improved but still never in top bracket. Only you can say IND, AUS & SAF are solid ODI teams. Still, Poms are easily behind these 3 & the day PAK had a right turn of their screw, simply rolled Poms.

    Therefore, I am not sure what ENG team actually has achieved in last 27 months. May be higher W/L, but that's only a function of how many soft matches you are playing. So far, only significant match that I see ENG winning is the 2nd ODI against SAF for a 2-0 lead, when SAF failed to chase probably run a ball 60 with 5/6 wickets at hand.
    Imo there's is going to be a change in era. An era where Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Srilanka, West Indies will be frequently beaten by England, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh.
    South Africa and Australia have gone down after wc 2015 and this champions trophy showed that clearly. Also New Zealand r barely as good as they were under mcculum. Srilanka and west Indies obviously not as good as before.
    Meanwhile look at Pakistan and Bangladesh and how much they have improved in last 12 months. Especially Bangladesh. Pakistan it's more in last 6 months than 12 months but still I expect a lot from these teams in future. India and England obviously will always be top quality teams.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Unsure what they picked Malan for. Surely Stoneman was next cab off the rank?

    Jennings is half a class below test level.
    They don't want too many lefties in the team , if he comes in it has to be a straight swap with another leftie possibly jennings but he will get the whole series I reckon


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Andrew Strauss is like me, the sponsors, the corporate box holders and the people who spend £100 per day per Test ticket.

    Privately educated. Only follows Tests. Follows Rugby Union as much as football. And most importantly.........

    Pays the bills for the ECB.

    You can't survive as England coach if you improve the ODI performance but underachieve in Tests.

    Just read the reader feedback on the online versions of The Times, The Daily Telegraph and even The Guardian.

    Because the reality is that the ECB doesn't really get to choose the coach. Or captain.

    If you lose the support of the MCC you are in trouble. But what really counts is what is said behind closed doors in the private gentleman's clubs: The Athenaeum, Brooks, Boodles, the Carlton, the East India Club, the Garrick and The Reform Club.

    And I can assure you, nobody there is saying "well at least we can score 380 now in ODI's."
    Sadly, the days when those people held sway over the plebians are long gone. In general that's a sad thing, but the one thing the British aristocracy is wrong about is the merits of Test Cricket vs limited overs. Sadly, the Empire and the old-boys network has gone with a whimper, and TRPs matter more than the view in the gentleman's clubs.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    Sadly, the days when those people held sway over the plebians are long gone. In general that's a sad thing, but the one thing the British aristocracy is wrong about is the merits of Test Cricket vs limited overs. Sadly, the Empire and the old-boys network has gone with a whimper, and TRPs matter more than the view in the gentleman's clubs.
    Not in England!

    Every Television Ratings Point since 2005 has been miniscule. Ratings for both Test and ODI cricket on Sky are so small as to be immeasurable, but Sky refuse to release their ratings anyway. And the one time they did......

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...stralia-ecb-tv

    Every form of cricket has been in decline in England since free-to-air TV lost the coverage rights. It has basically hidden the game from view.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cri...vey-shows.html

    And still the people Will Carling described as "57 old farts" run cricket, just as they did rugby.

    http://en.espn.co.uk/onthisday/rugby/story/96238.html

  39. #39
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    England are heavy favourites to win this test now and will hammer a pathetic WIs side later this summer. Bayliss won't be sacked anytime soon, at least not until after the Ashes.

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