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  1. #161
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    Points mentioned here by OP are valid but I would still argue that Root is still well on his way to become the next ATG since Botham and should surpass the likes of Cook, KP, Swann, Anderson and Broad in the way.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Points mentioned here by OP are valid but I would still argue that Root is still well on his way to become the next ATG since Botham and should surpass the likes of Cook, KP, Swann, Anderson and Broad in the way.
    Root is the most naturally talented post-war cricketer that England has produced, apart from Botham of course who was more of a freakish "Daley Thompson" one-off master of all trades that will never be seen again on these shores most probably. Root just needs to ensure that his results match his potential. Averaging 53 in Tests and 50 in ODIs has been a good start in this regard!

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Root is the most naturally talented post-war cricketer that England has produced, apart from Botham of course who was more of a freakish "Daley Thompson" one-off master of all trades that will never be seen again on these shores most probably. Root just needs to ensure that his results match his potential. Averaging 53 in Tests and 50 in ODIs has been a good start in this regard!
    Yup..!!! Potential is there and consistency is also there.Just need to keep producing positive results.

  4. #164
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    LOL this thread is dumb.

    Even if he can't convert those half centuries to centuries they're still runs, and a lot of runs compared to some other cricketies


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  5. #165
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    Among England players I have seen, he would slot in at #5:

    Boycott
    Gooch
    Gower
    KP
    Rooooooooot
    Botham
    Knott (w)
    Swann
    Gough
    Willis
    Anderson (home) / Fraser (away)

  6. #166
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    Another innings, another half century. He seems to have the potential but is clearly unable to kick on. Looks like he needs to face a weaker team to get going mentally and get in the nack of pilling up runs.

    However, as of right now, he is definitely not in the league of Smith, Kohli and Williamson.


    “I've never lost a game I just ran out of time.” Micheal Jordan

  7. #167
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    He's a top class player but if he was Pakistani he'd be constantly getting stick for being a home track player, can't convert fifties into hundreds etc

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    He's a top class player but if he was Pakistani he'd be constantly getting stick for being a home track player, can't convert fifties into hundreds etc
    Because he's English, he's considered one of the best batsmen in the world

    He's more in the Pujara class than up there with the other 3, although it is pretty tiered atm.

    Smith alone at the top
    Kohli a level or two below him
    Kane a level or two below Kohli
    Then your Pujaras and Roots of the world

    If he was from Asia, his stats would have come under far far more scrutiny.
    Last edited by Aman; 26th November 2017 at 04:30.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  10. #170
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    Root has a chronic issue with converting 50s to big scores. As a result, his average looks good but he causes little to no impact as shown in the India tour where he got a lot of 50s and ended up with a very good average but it did not matter because scoring 50s while facing a target of 400 does not matter. He is still one of the better batsmen in cricket right now but he is clearly below Smith, Kohli and Kane in that order. In tests, I am tempted to put Kane over Kohli.


    2 possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are terrifying.

  11. #171
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    Kane is above Kohli in tests as things stand.

    In tests,
    Smith >>> Kane > Kohli > Root/Pujara/Amla.

    I do think that Smith's technique will be exposed in his 30s and he won't have the longevity the likes of Kane, Kohli and Root will.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nombre View Post
    Kane is above Kohli in tests as things stand.

    In tests,
    Smith >>> Kane > Kohli > Root/Pujara/Amla.

    I do think that Smith's technique will be exposed in his 30s and he won't have the longevity the likes of Kane, Kohli and Root will.
    The problem with Kane is the pressure of carrying the batting and leading the side can get to him. He's not as calm or as composed as he use to be because as the captain and the leader of the batting unit (it's pretty much him now) he has so much going through his head when batting. He can't just bat freely anymore. He knows if he's out, our hopes take a massive hit and as captain the blame is going to fall on him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  13. #173
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    To add to that he bats at 3, which more often than not for us is really opening.

    He should consider moving down to 4 or dropping the captaincy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  14. #174
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    Jeet Raval looks like a good find.

    Who would you have as the test captain, Watling?

  15. #175
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    So many times I've seen Root get out in the 50s, needs to remove this design mentality and stop getting complacent after a small milestone.


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sin Nombre View Post
    Jeet Raval looks like a good find.

    Who would you have as the test captain, Watling?
    I'd assume it's between him and Latham.

    I would really like Jesse Ryder back in the side, he's scoring runs in domestic cricket at quick clip and could be the x factor we need down the order.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by world cup captain View Post
    Another innings, another half century. He seems to have the potential but is clearly unable to kick on.
    Hmm, how do you explain his thirteen test hundreds?

  18. #178
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    A rather poor thread. Unfortunately it is becoming a recurring theme. Kohli and Smith are widening the gap, but Root is not overrated by any measure - he is a top class batsman whose bet is yet to come. He will improve his conversion rate.

    Williamson is a wonderful player but for me he is the weakest of the Fab Four.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    A rather poor thread. Unfortunately it is becoming a recurring theme. Kohli and Smith are widening the gap, but Root is not overrated by any measure - he is a top class batsman whose bet is yet to come. He will improve his conversion rate.

    Williamson is a wonderful player but for me he is the weakest of the Fab Four.
    Your bias for English players rearing its head again.

    3 100s away from home and a conversion rate which is more to comparable Misbah than the other 3.

    I recall you often making a big deal about Misbah's inability to score 100s, why is Root exempt from the same cricism?


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  20. #180
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    FYI here are the worst conversion rates

    Worst 50s to 100s conversion rate:
    20.41 Misbah (10/49)
    23.29 VVS Laxman (17/73)
    25.00 A Stewart (15/60)
    25.81 M Atherton (16/62)
    27.03 B Simpson (10/37)
    27.91 B McCullum (12/43)
    28.26 JOE ROOT (13/46)
    ** Min 10 100s


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    I'd assume it's between him and Latham.

    I would really like Jesse Ryder back in the side, he's scoring runs in domestic cricket at quick clip and could be the x factor we need down the order.
    Does Jesse want to play? Last I heard he asked to stay out of the limelight for his own good.

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrongun View Post
    Does Jesse want to play? Last I heard he asked to stay out of the limelight for his own good.
    I remember him getting called up for the A side a while back before being pulling out because of personal reasons a few years back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  23. #183
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    So the same Joe Root who came out and made 254 against Pakistan the game after England were humiliated at Lords is underated?

  24. #184
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    People need to calm down and stop doing banghra every time one of the fab 4 fail. Root is a top class batsmen , he has issues with his conversion rate but once that improves he'll be nearly unstoppable.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    Your bias for English players rearing its head again.

    3 100s away from home and a conversion rate which is more to comparable Misbah than the other 3.

    I recall you often making a big deal about Misbah's inability to score 100s, why is Root exempt from the same cricism?
    If Root is still failing to get big scores at the age of 40, he will cop his fair share of criticism.

    It is easy to forget that he is a couple of years younger than Smith and Kohli. It was around this age when those two took their game to the next level, i.e. around 2014.

    Root is entering his peak years only now, and the next 2-3 years will decide if he’s going to be par with Smith and Kohli as an ATG or if he will fall just short.

    Considering the trajectory of his career so far and his ability to score runs in all conditions, one would back him to up his game a notch.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    If Root is still failing to get big scores at the age of 40, he will cop his fair share of criticism.

    It is easy to forget that he is a couple of years younger than Smith and Kohli. It was around this age when those two took their game to the next level, i.e. around 2014.

    Root is entering his peak years only now, and the next 2-3 years will decide if he’s going to be par with Smith and Kohli as an ATG or if he will fall just short.

    Considering the trajectory of his career so far and his ability to score runs in all conditions, one would back him to up his game a notch.
    I'm not talking about his ability to perform in the future, I'm talking about his performances now.

    He could very well turn it around and enter the elite group with Smith and Kohli, but as is as he a distant observer with Kane and co.
    Last edited by Aman; 27th November 2017 at 22:24.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Hmm, how do you explain his thirteen test hundreds?
    First of all, I should clear up that I never said he is not a good player, I don't know if you were aiming at this but I wanted to get that out of the way.

    Now he has played 61 test matches and has scored 13 centuries with 33 half centuries. This in itself is a solid record but when he is compared to Kohli who has scored 19 tons with 14 fifties from 62 matches and Smith who has 21 tons with 21 fifties from 57 matches. Looking at who he is being compared to, he is clearly not up to the mark.

    If this fails, just look at Aman's post, 180. It's quite clear with the conversion rates.


    “I've never lost a game I just ran out of time.” Micheal Jordan

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Hmm, how do you explain his thirteen test hundreds?
    13 hundreds in 61 tests or 112 innings are good numbers. Comparable to Daryl Cullianan, Samarweera and Azhar Ali



  29. #189
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    Joe Root is a very good player but needs to work on his temperament. I have seen him throw his wicket away after getting to a 50 multiple times. When you are playing in a team where you are most important member of the batting unit, more is expected of you. Smith played a phenomenal innings at Gabba when his team needed him the most but Joe Root in similar situation in both the innings got out at most inopportune moments for his team. He did that a few times in India as well. I remember after looking very good at the crease, he came down and hit Ashwin to mid off and got out. Smith will never do that, you would have to bowl a good ball to get him out.

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    If Root is still failing to get big scores at the age of 40, he will cop his fair share of criticism.

    It is easy to forget that he is a couple of years younger than Smith and Kohli. It was around this age when those two took their game to the next level, i.e. around 2014.

    Root is entering his peak years only now, and the next 2-3 years will decide if he’s going to be par with Smith and Kohli as an ATG or if he will fall just short.

    Considering the trajectory of his career so far and his ability to score runs in all conditions, one would back him to up his game a notch.
    On 26th Birthday

    Smith: 60.18 AVG (41 Matches)
    Root: 52.80 AVG (53 Matches)

    In 27th Birth Year

    Smith: 77.40 AVG (15 Matches) [Includes Ashes in England!]
    Root: 56.78 AVG (8 Matches) [All matches at home except Brisbane test!]



    He will never touch Smith's heights. It's not going to happen. It's silly to compare him to someone of Smith's greatness.


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  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    On 26th Birthday

    Smith: 60.18 AVG (41 Matches)
    Root: 52.80 AVG (53 Matches)

    In 27th Birth Year

    Smith: 77.40 AVG (15 Matches) [Includes Ashes in England!]
    Root: 56.78 AVG (8 Matches) [All matches at home except Brisbane test!]



    He will never touch Smith's heights. It's not going to happen. It's silly to compare him to someone of Smith's greatness.
    When I mentioned Smith and Kohli's ATG status, I wasn't referring to Tests specifically. That is why I mentioned Kohli in the first place, who is unlikely to catch Smith in Tests, let alone Root. However, the latter's best years are ahead of him in all formats, and I think he can go down as the third ATG batsman of the 2010 era.

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by world cup captain View Post
    If this fails, just look at Aman's post, 180. It's quite clear with the conversion rates.
    I don't know why this metric is deemed important. Martin Crowe had a 1:1 conversion rate. But there were better batters about. Even Ian Botham's conversion rate was close to 1:1,

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I don't know why this metric is deemed important. Martin Crowe had a 1:1 conversion rate. But there were better batters about. Even Ian Botham's conversion rate was close to 1:1,
    I think you missed the point.

    Joe Root is at his peak right now and is in great form. If even in his prime he has such a poor conversion rate imagine what will happen once he loses form. Great batsmen are those who capitalize on good form and get big hundreds. 3 tons in so many overseas tests is a very average return.

    Also, Martin Crowe was one of the best batsmen in his time. In the mid-late 80s after Viv's decline, he was arguably the best in the world.

  34. #194
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    Worst 50s to 100s conversion rate:
    20.41 Misbah (10/49)
    23.29 VVS Laxman (17/73)
    25.00 A Stewart (15/60)
    25.81 M Atherton (16/62)
    27.03 B Simpson (10/37)
    27.91 B McCullum (12/43)
    28.26 JOE ROOT (13/46)
    ** Min 10 100s
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 28th November 2017 at 11:09.

  35. #195
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    Joe Root is a class player. He has a huge conversion rate problem but it is partly a problem because he is ridiculously consistent in tests. He has 46 fifty plus scores in 112 innings. The most among the fab 4. Also I see a lot of PPers have begun overrating Smith here.

    As good as Smith is, remember the quality of pitches Smith has mostly played on in home conditions. Australian pitches were flat in all previous four home summers. Compare that to England pitches which generally favour 350 score matches. Root has plenty to work on but mediocrity around Smith in the batting order and the pitches make him look ridiculously better than he is. And he is a top player.

    The 2015 ashes in England saw how Smith failed in the three matches where the ball swung and dominate on the two flat tracks that were more australian than english. He was also mediocre vs. SA when the australian pitches were actually helpful. Similarly in SL. Failed in Pune and Bangalore 3 innings and score a hundred in one where he was dropped 6 times. Played well on a flat Ranchi track and in Dharamshala, which again was more Australian than subcontinental wicket.

    I still think there is not a big gap in the top 4 players and Root is an amazing amazing player. Smith just about takes the prize for now.

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Joe Root is a class player. He has a huge conversion rate problem but it is partly a problem because he is ridiculously consistent in tests. He has 46 fifty plus scores in 112 innings. The most among the fab 4. Also I see a lot of PPers have begun overrating Smith here.

    As good as Smith is, remember the quality of pitches Smith has mostly played on in home conditions. Australian pitches were flat in all previous four home summers. Compare that to England pitches which generally favour 350 score matches. Root has plenty to work on but mediocrity around Smith in the batting order and the pitches make him look ridiculously better than he is. And he is a top player.

    The 2015 ashes in England saw how Smith failed in the three matches where the ball swung and dominate on the two flat tracks that were more australian than english. He was also mediocre vs. SA when the australian pitches were actually helpful. Similarly in SL. Failed in Pune and Bangalore 3 innings and score a hundred in one where he was dropped 6 times. Played well on a flat Ranchi track and in Dharamshala, which again was more Australian than subcontinental wicket.

    I still think there is not a big gap in the top 4 players and Root is an amazing amazing player. Smith just about takes the prize for now.
    That is true, Smith's real test will be when his performances drop (& they will) & how the team copes with their best batter failing. That will be true(r) test of his captaincy & overall as a cricketer as well.

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I don't know why this metric is deemed important. Martin Crowe had a 1:1 conversion rate. But there were better batters about. Even Ian Botham's conversion rate was close to 1:1,
    After some tour match, I believe Bayliss himself said we need 160s, not 60s. The ability to convert after getting in determines whether if a batsman can take his game to the next level which is why we Pakistanis get disappointed with our test batsman. A lot of times they get set but arent’t able to convert.

    As far as the comparisons with Botham and Crowe are, they are unfair due to difference in eras. Batting has became easier thus expectations from batsmen have increased. If Root played 30 years ago with the same record, he would have been hailed as a legend of the game. Now, Root’s failure to convert doesn’t mean he is a bad batsman, it’s just that he cannot be considered with the greatest batsmen of the era because of this great flaw.


    “I've never lost a game I just ran out of time.” Micheal Jordan

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Joe Root is a class player. He has a huge conversion rate problem but it is partly a problem because he is ridiculously consistent in tests. He has 46 fifty plus scores in 112 innings. The most among the fab 4. Also I see a lot of PPers have begun overrating Smith here.
    That would be true if he had the same amount of hundreds as Smith/Kohli while having more fifties. As it stands he has 13, compared to 19/21 - quite a big gap. In fact having 6 less hundreds than Kohli in the same number of games is almost embarrassing given Kohli is clearly a inferior test player to Root. The conversion problem is a huge issue, all these pretty fifties (he got like 7-8 in that India series), may look good on the resume but they do absolutely nothing for the team.

  39. #199
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    yes.mighty overrated crickter.

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by giri26 View Post
    Joe Root is a very good player but needs to work on his temperament. I have seen him throw his wicket away after getting to a 50 multiple times. When you are playing in a team where you are most important member of the batting unit, more is expected of you. Smith played a phenomenal innings at Gabba when his team needed him the most but Joe Root in similar situation in both the innings got out at most inopportune moments for his team. He did that a few times in India as well. I remember after looking very good at the crease, he came down and hit Ashwin to mid off and got out. Smith will never do that, you would have to bowl a good ball to get him out.
    Exactly.Even his dismissal against J yadav in india or dismissal against yasir at lords was shocking.He has hardly done anything special away from home and his home performance is certainly not better than Pujara.You don't see best test players like Smith,kohli,pujara to throw wickets like that.
    Last edited by Savage; 28th November 2017 at 12:45.

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Joe Root is a class player. He has a huge conversion rate problem but it is partly a problem because he is ridiculously consistent in tests. He has 46 fifty plus scores in 112 innings. The most among the fab 4. Also I see a lot of PPers have begun overrating Smith here.

    As good as Smith is, remember the quality of pitches Smith has mostly played on in home conditions. Australian pitches were flat in all previous four home summers. Compare that to England pitches which generally favour 350 score matches. Root has plenty to work on but mediocrity around Smith in the batting order and the pitches make him look ridiculously better than he is. And he is a top player.

    The 2015 ashes in England saw how Smith failed in the three matches where the ball swung and dominate on the two flat tracks that were more australian than english. He was also mediocre vs. SA when the australian pitches were actually helpful. Similarly in SL. Failed in Pune and Bangalore 3 innings and score a hundred in one where he was dropped 6 times. Played well on a flat Ranchi track and in Dharamshala, which again was more Australian than subcontinental wicket.

    I still think there is not a big gap in the top 4 players and Root is an amazing amazing player. Smith just about takes the prize for now.
    Flawed logic.

    Smith has won a match in turners against Ashwin/Jadeja when the likes of Amla, de Villiers, Kane, Root and Cook all were struggling to save a test match there. This is one big example. This Australian type pitch logic is weird again. Everyone does it on favorable types of pitches to them only. India have better performances in Adelaide and Sydney in the past in Australia and in England, its Lords and Oval. Same for Pakistan.

    The way Smith turned the game in the recent high pressure test match vs their rivals was spectacular and one of the best innings played by any one among fab four.

    In England, he failed whenever there was much off swing and seam but look he still ends up with two match winning performances there. Its because when he scores he goes big unlike Root whose 50-60 has no impact on the game. Till now how many match winning performances you can recall for Kohli, Root and Williamson away?? Smith already has 5-6 away from home. Its also not that he is having some ATG team with him while others are playing with trash attacks.

  42. #202
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    Smith is not overrated. He deserves all sort of hypes because on flat tracks, he is not just scoring and making his avg look pretty like some other batsmen but also winning games everywhere in the world.

    2 won in Eng
    1 won in NZ
    1 won in Ind
    1 won in SA

    5 match winning performances already leaving out dozens of match winning performances at home.

    He is like Ashwin of home who is also doing better than everyone else away from home.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Flawed logic.

    Smith has won a match in turners against Ashwin/Jadeja when the likes of Amla, de Villiers, Kane, Root and Cook all were struggling to save a test match there. This is one big example. This Australian type pitch logic is weird again. Everyone does it on favorable types of pitches to them only. India have better performances in Adelaide and Sydney in the past in Australia and in England, its Lords and Oval. Same for Pakistan.

    The way Smith turned the game in the recent high pressure test match vs their rivals was spectacular and one of the best innings played by any one among fab four.

    In England, he failed whenever there was much off swing and seam but look he still ends up with two match winning performances there. Its because when he scores he goes big unlike Root whose 50-60 has no impact on the game. Till now how many match winning performances you can recall for Kohli, Root and Williamson away?? Smith already has 5-6 away from home. Its also not that he is having some ATG team with him while others are playing with trash attacks.
    If you are talking about Smiths innings at Pune , admitting it is still a high quality innings , you need to take it in context.

    1) Australia already had a first innings lead close to 150

    2) He was dropped twice .
    3) The pitch was a turner albeit a slow one. Main spinners like Ashwin, Jadeja and Lyon turned the deliveries more which helped the batsman missed the edges more . The successful spinner there was O'Keefe who dint turn the ball and most of them will tell you straight ball on a turner is more difficult.

    Take nothing away from Smith though , it was still a good innings. I rate Pujara s 2nd innings at Bangalore more coz that was a shooter pitch and a turner keeping up and down.

  44. #204
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    That innings in India is so overrated by Smith, I swear he was dropped 6-8 times in that 100.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  45. #205
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    I'd be worried about Joe Root's form going forward in this Ashes.

    Australia are targeting him like they did in 2013-14, they're pushing him back with short balls so when they bowl fuller his head is falling over, his balance and weight is not transferring properly and he's getting out LBW.

    There's nobody in this England team capable of scoring daddy hundreds on a consistent basis - Cook struggles against quality pace attacks, Stoneman, Malan and Vince are still new at Test level, Bairstow and Ali are too low down the order to construct longer innings so if Root's struggling - how do England score the 450-500+ scores needed to win in Australia ?

  46. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aman View Post
    That innings in India is so overrated by Smith, I swear he was dropped 6-8 times in that 100.
    He got at least 5 chances. He is a good player of spin, but that innings isn't the best example.

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Flawed logic.

    Smith has won a match in turners against Ashwin/Jadeja when the likes of Amla, de Villiers, Kane, Root and Cook all were struggling to save a test match there. This is one big example. This Australian type pitch logic is weird again. Everyone does it on favorable types of pitches to them only. India have better performances in Adelaide and Sydney in the past in Australia and in England, its Lords and Oval. Same for Pakistan.

    The way Smith turned the game in the recent high pressure test match vs their rivals was spectacular and one of the best innings played by any one among fab four.

    In England, he failed whenever there was much off swing and seam but look he still ends up with two match winning performances there. Its because when he scores he goes big unlike Root whose 50-60 has no impact on the game. Till now how many match winning performances you can recall for Kohli, Root and Williamson away?? Smith already has 5-6 away from home. Its also not that he is having some ATG team with him while others are playing with trash attacks.
    Agree with some of what you have said. He is in the absolute top category. But my point is that the huge gap there appears to be between him and others in tests is an illusion. And again those match winning 100s are dependent on so many other factors. Let us break it down.

    That indian hundred, as others have said here, is hyped to an extent. He was dropped about six times and the team was effectively 170/1 when he came in on that pitch.
    One of his hundred in England came about in a dead rubber and when Chris rogers also made 170 odd. The other was good, but my point was that he didn't conquer the english conditions. And a lot of these hundreds are supported by top class Aussie bowling attack. They could have very well been draws if he had played with an inferior attack just how it happened with Virat in Australia last time around.

    The bowling attack plays a huge role in converting those 100s into match winning runs. India should have won that Johannesburg game and maybe one or two of those Australian games (in which Virat scored) if we had a decent attack. You will see more of such knocks for Virat in the next year and a half when he plays abroad again after 3 years in those 4 countries. Also Williamson has won his team a match in UAE, should have won that match in Lords if not for that ridiculous Stokes and Root partnership. Played top knocks in Brisbane and Perth but again, didn't have the attack for those pitches. Won a match with Taylor in Colombo and drew a match vs India on debut.

    Maybe Root has lacked there in big hundreds category but Virat and Williamson have a lot of innings away that could have ended in wins if for better attacks or some luck. Doesn't make them lesser players.

    Again, everyone scores at home but that huge difference in average that appears between the players is a lot down to how easy it has been at home. Virat averages over 60 in Australia against vastly superior bowlers compared to what Smith constantly faces on those wickets. Smith averages 72 in Australia and that makes his average appear ridiculous. And that Brisbane knock was probably his best yet. But other three have played a lot of ridiculous innings too.

    Smith is ahead of others right now in test but I don't think there is a lot of difference.

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    Root is good rather than great. Steve Smith meanwhile I would rate as a great batsman, in fact he may be the only great Test batsman left.

  49. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Agree with some of what you have said. He is in the absolute top category. But my point is that the huge gap there appears to be between him and others in tests is an illusion. And again those match winning 100s are dependent on so many other factors. Let us break it down.

    That indian hundred, as others have said here, is hyped to an extent. He was dropped about six times and the team was effectively 170/1 when he came in on that pitch.
    One of his hundred in England came about in a dead rubber and when Chris rogers also made 170 odd. The other was good, but my point was that he didn't conquer the english conditions. And a lot of these hundreds are supported by top class Aussie bowling attack. They could have very well been draws if he had played with an inferior attack just how it happened with Virat in Australia last time around.

    The bowling attack plays a huge role in converting those 100s into match winning runs. India should have won that Johannesburg game and maybe one or two of those Australian games (in which Virat scored) if we had a decent attack. You will see more of such knocks for Virat in the next year and a half when he plays abroad again after 3 years in those 4 countries. Also Williamson has won his team a match in UAE, should have won that match in Lords if not for that ridiculous Stokes and Root partnership. Played top knocks in Brisbane and Perth but again, didn't have the attack for those pitches. Won a match with Taylor in Colombo and drew a match vs India on debut.

    Maybe Root has lacked there in big hundreds category but Virat and Williamson have a lot of innings away that could have ended in wins if for better attacks or some luck. Doesn't make them lesser players.

    Again, everyone scores at home but that huge difference in average that appears between the players is a lot down to how easy it has been at home. Virat averages over 60 in Australia against vastly superior bowlers compared to what Smith constantly faces on those wickets. Smith averages 72 in Australia and that makes his average appear ridiculous. And that Brisbane knock was probably his best yet. But other three have played a lot of ridiculous innings too.

    Smith is ahead of others right now in test but I don't think there is a lot of difference.
    The gap is huge.

    Smith is miles ahead of everyone else in AWAY matches. The nit-picking of his innings is unfair considering how large the sample size is.

    He puts runs on the board. Period.

    AWAY averages

    Smith: 57.29 AVG (10 100s) [28 Matches]
    Root: 44.30 AVG (3 100s) [23 Matches]
    Kohli: 45.13 AVG (10 100s) [31 Matches]
    Williamson: 46.41 AVG (9 100s) [32 Matches]


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  50. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    The gap is huge.

    Smith is miles ahead of everyone else in AWAY matches. The nit-picking of his innings is unfair considering how large the sample size is.

    He puts runs on the board. Period.

    AWAY averages

    Smith: 57.29 AVG (10 100s) [28 Matches]
    Root: 44.30 AVG (3 100s) [23 Matches]
    Kohli: 45.13 AVG (10 100s) [31 Matches]
    Williamson: 46.41 AVG (9 100s) [32 Matches]
    Nobody saying he is not the best right now. The difference between him and Kohli & Williamson is a little exaggerated by factors which although intangible cannot be ignored. And for me , that Pune innings is a bit overrated. Pune innings is mentioned because lot of his supporters bring that into context every time. Kohli's 84 in the 2nd innings at Visakhapatnam against England is a chance less innings on a even treacherous pitch. Just coz it was not a century , doesn't come to discussion often.

    PS: Smith is the best batsman right now for the simple fact that he scores loads of runs .

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by WengerOut View Post
    Nobody saying he is not the best right now. The difference between him and Kohli & Williamson is a little exaggerated by factors which although intangible cannot be ignored. And for me , that Pune innings is a bit overrated. Pune innings is mentioned because lot of his supporters bring that into context every time. Kohli's 84 in the 2nd innings at Visakhapatnam against England is a chance less innings on a even treacherous pitch. Just coz it was not a century , doesn't come to discussion often.

    PS: Smith is the best batsman right now for the simple fact that he scores loads of runs .
    Don't forget that India were bowled out for just over a hundred in both the innings by Steve O' Keefe in Pune. The pitch had lots of turn. Smith's innings was phenomenal. I understand your point but to undermine a great effort to praise Kohli is not right. Smith is phenomenal player, we are not just talking about ability here. The kind of innings he played at the Gabba under pressure was amazing. He is not just ahead of others due to scoring lots of runs.

  52. #212
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    Smith is definitely the most consistent and well ahead. But Kohli will get there and eventually might even finish ahead of him when Smith loses some form and Kohli enters his peak.

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by giri26 View Post
    Don't forget that India were bowled out for just over a hundred in both the innings by Steve O' Keefe in Pune. The pitch had lots of turn. Smith's innings was phenomenal. I understand your point but to undermine a great effort to praise Kohli is not right. Smith is phenomenal player, we are not just talking about ability here. The kind of innings he played at the Gabba under pressure was amazing. He is not just ahead of others due to scoring lots of runs.
    In one of my posts , I had mentioned as to why , of all the spinners played in that match , the least inferior one played better. Regarding the pitch also.

    I dint bring Kohli to undermine Smith innings. It was the argument against the opinion that only Smith plays fantastically on tough pitches.

    Lets not discuss Gabba innings . That was just situational pressure which everyone in the fab 4 is good at.

    I reiterate , Smith is the best of them because he scores consistently the big innings among them.

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    Just 1 hundred in the 3rd inns or test matches played and 0 in 4th Inns, thats a pretty glaring issue and something he needs to rectify if hes to go up another level as a batsmen. To many nice 50s which dont win many test matches.

  55. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Agree with some of what you have said. He is in the absolute top category. But my point is that the huge gap there appears to be between him and others in tests is an illusion. And again those match winning 100s are dependent on so many other factors. Let us break it down.

    That indian hundred, as others have said here, is hyped to an extent. He was dropped about six times and the team was effectively 170/1 when he came in on that pitch.
    One of his hundred in England came about in a dead rubber and when Chris rogers also made 170 odd. The other was good, but my point was that he didn't conquer the english conditions. And a lot of these hundreds are supported by top class Aussie bowling attack. They could have very well been draws if he had played with an inferior attack just how it happened with Virat in Australia last time around.

    The bowling attack plays a huge role in converting those 100s into match winning runs. India should have won that Johannesburg game and maybe one or two of those Australian games (in which Virat scored) if we had a decent attack. You will see more of such knocks for Virat in the next year and a half when he plays abroad again after 3 years in those 4 countries. Also Williamson has won his team a match in UAE, should have won that match in Lords if not for that ridiculous Stokes and Root partnership. Played top knocks in Brisbane and Perth but again, didn't have the attack for those pitches. Won a match with Taylor in Colombo and drew a match vs India on debut.

    Maybe Root has lacked there in big hundreds category but Virat and Williamson have a lot of innings away that could have ended in wins if for better attacks or some luck. Doesn't make them lesser players.

    Again, everyone scores at home but that huge difference in average that appears between the players is a lot down to how easy it has been at home. Virat averages over 60 in Australia against vastly superior bowlers compared to what Smith constantly faces on those wickets. Smith averages 72 in Australia and that makes his average appear ridiculous. And that Brisbane knock was probably his best yet. But other three have played a lot of ridiculous innings too.

    Smith is ahead of others right now in test but I don't think there is a lot of difference.
    Luck shouldn't even be brought here otherwise South Africans could have been finalists in 1992, 1999 and 2015 WC and won't have been hailed as choker as they are talked of.

    That hundred by Smith may not be good quality wise so what he got three hundreds in that series against Ashwin/Jadeja. That makes up as a series defining performance.

    Root on much flatter ones got 1 hundred( when Stokes and Moen hit one also) and failed to draw any match on his own. Smith drew the third one in India too. Williamson failed there too. No drawn matches there.

    Kohli had zero hundreds and nothing performances at home in recent series vs Aus and SA on tougher pitches facing no one as good as Ashwin or Jadeja. Smashed heavily against the kiwis and England on better pitches, dead rubber and against inferior attacks.So you decide there? You are evaluating Smith performance in India solely but I would recommend you to do it with relative to others of fab four.

    There will be few matches where you would think Smith got support from others in winning the game but that is because he has simply been so good. He scores when nobody scores and scores when everyone scores too.

    And yes Williamson won a match in UAE but even there McCullum played a better inning but I will still count that.So how many?

    Winning is hard for NZ and India in Australia but same is case for Australia in Indian conditions if not in SA/Eng/NZ. Match winning inning is not the only parameter set here. Smith excels even in other parameters.

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    The gap is huge.

    Smith is miles ahead of everyone else in AWAY matches. The nit-picking of his innings is unfair considering how large the sample size is.

    He puts runs on the board. Period.

    AWAY averages

    Smith: 57.29 AVG (10 100s) [28 Matches]
    Root: 44.30 AVG (3 100s) [23 Matches]
    Kohli: 45.13 AVG (10 100s) [31 Matches]
    Williamson: 46.41 AVG (9 100s) [32 Matches]
    Disagree. And also the numbers are wrong. Smith averages 53.94 in away+neutral matches. And take away WI, it becomes 50. If you take away the opposition that have not been challenging for India (WI, Bangla, SL), Virat averages 50+ away too. Weirdly, Virat has average records in Bangla (1 inning), SL and WI. And the rest 50+ average is based on cricket till 2015 cos Virat has not played against top 4 away since then. That is why I say the difference is not huge. But Virat needs to be a lot more consistent in tests. Next year will tell us where he is in that pack. And I have some bias for Williamson. He doesn't get the same opportunities as other three. Has 4 matches in this home summer too. Has had too much responsibility in the away matches. Root clearly has a problem, needs to improve the conversion rate big time. I am counting on him to do that. In my eyes, the difference is not huge. And the next year will probably decide for me.

    Maybe because Smith fails so often away when the other team has played well in the first inning sets me off a little and he does get ridiculously easy conditions in half the matches he plays. He is the best now, but not by much. You have a different opinion and that is fine.

  57. #217
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    Its embarrassing to see people nitpick Smith innings in Pune considering he scored three hundreds in 4 innings in that series.

    What Kane and Root did on better batting pitches? No drawn match. Only 1 hundred on flattest pitch of the season. Smith came up with a victory in Pune and drew one in the third test.

    What Kohli did vs Aus and SA at home?

  58. #218
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    I put them in tests as:

    Smith

    Kohli/ Root/ Williamson

    Odis:

    Kohli

    Root
    Smith/ Williamson

    Overall, Kohli and Smith will end up as top tier ATGs of the era. Root and Williamson will be behind by a couple of levels.

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Let's ignore this part. Its irrelevant to talk about. I am more interested in Smith performance in India in that complete series not just in Pune.
    Yes, he was amazing in the last two matches. And that series is probably a huge reason why everyone would say that he is the best right now.

  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Disagree. And also the numbers are wrong. Smith averages 53.94 in away+neutral matches. And take away WI, it becomes 50. If you take away the opposition that have not been challenging for India (WI, Bangla, SL), Virat averages 50+ away too. Weirdly, Virat has average records in Bangla (1 inning), SL and WI. And the rest 50+ average is based on cricket till 2015 cos Virat has not played against top 4 away since then. That is why I say the difference is not huge. But Virat needs to be a lot more consistent in tests. Next year will tell us where he is in that pack. And I have some bias for Williamson. He doesn't get the same opportunities as other three. Has 4 matches in this home summer too. Has had too much responsibility in the away matches. Root clearly has a problem, needs to improve the conversion rate big time. I am counting on him to do that. In my eyes, the difference is not huge. And the next year will probably decide for me.

    Maybe because Smith fails so often away when the other team has played well in the first inning sets me off a little and he does get ridiculously easy conditions in half the matches he plays. He is the best now, but not by much. You have a different opinion and that is fine.
    Williamson literally was our batting in Australia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  61. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Disagree. And also the numbers are wrong. Smith averages 53.94 in away+neutral matches. And take away WI, it becomes 50. If you take away the opposition that have not been challenging for India (WI, Bangla, SL), Virat averages 50+ away too. Weirdly, Virat has average records in Bangla (1 inning), SL and WI. And the rest 50+ average is based on cricket till 2015 cos Virat has not played against top 4 away since then. That is why I say the difference is not huge. But Virat needs to be a lot more consistent in tests. Next year will tell us where he is in that pack. And I have some bias for Williamson. He doesn't get the same opportunities as other three. Has 4 matches in this home summer too. Has had too much responsibility in the away matches. Root clearly has a problem, needs to improve the conversion rate big time. I am counting on him to do that. In my eyes, the difference is not huge. And the next year will probably decide for me.

    Maybe because Smith fails so often away when the other team has played well in the first inning sets me off a little and he does get ridiculously easy conditions in half the matches he plays. He is the best now, but not by much. You have a different opinion and that is fine.
    If you take away all of his matches, he averages 0.

    Using neutral tests where he was batting at #8 in his debut series is unfair considering none of Virat, Kane, or Root had to face such a scenario.

    But yes, I failed to account for the UAE series (2 tests) where he averaged 43-44.


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  62. #222
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    Root is not overrated at all. He has complete game for all conditions. He just needs to take the next step on conversion. Kholi too used to hit hundred and get out now he bashes tired attacks till bowlers give up on getting him out.

    Not fare to compare him to smith who has achieved his highest potential.

  63. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princejain191 View Post
    Yes, he was amazing in the last two matches. And that series is probably a huge reason why everyone would say that he is the best right now.
    I dont like this nitpicking which some people do for example the hundred in 4th test was a bit Australian like pitch, in 3rd test it was very flat wicket and in 1st test the quality of inning was poor. He failed in Bangalore also. I mean its obvious if anyone scores 3-4 hundreds in one series, there will be some pitches flatter to bat on.

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    Williamson is the only member of the 'Fab Four' who is not overrated. The current Ashes and the next two series in South Africa will tell us a lot about Root, Kohli and Smith.

    I expect Kane to end up the best of the four, although he will remain the least hyped.

  65. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Williamson is the only member of the 'Fab Four' who is not overrated. The current Ashes and the next two series in South Africa will tell us a lot about Root, Kohli and Smith.

    I expect Kane to end up the best of the four, although he will remain the least hyped.
    Nah, he'll drop out and become the weakest of the 4.

    We're going to play less Test cricket and more LOIs. Good thing is he may improve as a LOI batsmen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Williamson is the only member of the 'Fab Four' who is not overrated. The current Ashes and the next two series in South Africa will tell us a lot about Root, Kohli and Smith.

    I expect Kane to end up the best of the four, although he will remain the least hyped.
    I have a soft spot for Kane since his U19 days (2008). You could tell how good he was immediately. However, he's fighting a real uphill battle.

    His prime years will be wasted because of the NZCB's reluctance to set up a proper schedule.

    On an even playing field, he can easily go toe to toe with Root/Kohli/Smith.


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  67. #227
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    If he takes England home tomorrow will he still be overrated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    If he takes England home tomorrow will he still be overrated?
    One innings.

    But it will be a step in the right direction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Don't worry bro. Your other thread allows for rain. Maybe it will save you?

  69. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    If he takes England home tomorrow will he still be overrated?
    Kohli didn't take his team home here but it was still a good knock

  70. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    If he takes England home tomorrow will he still be overrated?
    Players like Inzi, Afridi are called greats for just once in a blue moon effort. So why shouldn't root's knock be counted?

  71. #231
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    If he does take England home. It will be in top 10 test knocks ever played due the quality of attack ,situation of series, pitch etc. Having said that if he does take england through it will be a once in a career innings.

  72. #232
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    Root is a level behind Smith and Kohli. I dont have expectations from him to win the match tomorrow. However, if he does that it would be one big stride.

  73. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderwoman View Post
    Players like Inzi, Afridi are called greats for just once in a blue moon effort. So why shouldn't root's knock be counted?
    Afridi is not a great. Inzy is just a great not ATG.

    Root is guaranteed to become a great and ATG is something which will be decided only after turning 30.

  74. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smudger View Post
    If he does take England home. It will be in top 10 test knocks ever played due the quality of attack ,situation of series, pitch etc. Having said that if he does take england through it will be a once in a career innings.
    Oh come the Aussie attack is overrated by many, Starc is hit & miss (mostly miss) & Josh goes missing on flat tracks. Only Cummins & Lyon are in the top 5 test bowlers category atm, based on current form. This will indeed be one of the top 5 chases of this decade but the Aussie attack isn;t all that hot as it's made out to be, as SA showed last year.

  75. #235
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    Root just might win One for his Country !!!!

  76. #236
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    I understand the point that this may be just one innings if he does bring it home tomorrow but my argument is if he does get a match winning hundred tomorrow that will surely shut up the critics who say he only scores 50s/60s because this is a pressure match against a world class bowling line up.

  77. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    I understand the point that this may be just one innings if he does bring it home tomorrow but my argument is if he does get a match winning hundred tomorrow that will surely shut up the critics who say he only scores 50s/60s because this is a pressure match against a world class bowling line up.
    Not really, his real worth would be known once Cook & Anderson retire. In case of Kohli & Smith, both have done exceptionally well in at least one series where all other batters have failed, I don;t remember Root having a series like Smith in India this year or Kohli vs England last year.

    Root is still not as consistent as Smith nor does he score big as consistently as Kohli, yet!

  78. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    Not really, his real worth would be known once Cook & Anderson retire. In case of Kohli & Smith, both have done exceptionally well in at least one series where all other batters have failed, I don;t remember Root having a series like Smith in India this year or Kohli vs England last year.

    Root is still not as consistent as Smith nor does he score big as consistently as Kohli, yet!
    I believe England's batting line up, even with Cook, is worse than India's and probably on par with Australi's. Kohli has lots of other good batsmen in the 11 but Smith's only World class partner is Warner whereas Root's is Cook. I agree Root hasn't had an amazing series like Smith in India though but he is definitely not an overrated player, which is what the OP of this thread states.

  79. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadi123 View Post
    I believe England's batting line up, even with Cook, is worse than India's and probably on par with Australi's. Kohli has lots of other good batsmen in the 11 but Smith's only World class partner is Warner whereas Root's is Cook. I agree Root hasn't had an amazing series like Smith in India though but he is definitely not an overrated player, which is what the OP of this thread states.
    Yes & the argument given is that Joe is a tad "soft" & fails more often than these two in crunch situations, which still holds true & won;t change with one innings. A (good) series ~ maybe, multiple series ~ definitely, but he has time on his side.

  80. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    Not really, his real worth would be known once Cook & Anderson retire. In case of Kohli & Smith, both have done exceptionally well in at least one series where all other batters have failed, I don;t remember Root having a series like Smith in India this year or Kohli vs England last year.

    Root is still not as consistent as Smith nor does he score big as consistently as Kohli, yet!
    The series in which kohli scored every other batsman also scored. Rahul got 199 pujara got runs even nair got 300. From england root ,moeen,stokes also scored . Even in australia series where kohli scored runs every other batsman even tailender got runs . Truth be told kohli have never had truly astonishing series like smith where he scored 3 hundreds and all other batters scored 2 . If kohli wants tomatch smiths india performance then he has to score huge amount of runs in england or south africa on green wickets. Smith scored those runs overseas in conditions completely alien to him. Kohli looks like a legend when he is scoring against the sl attack. Even in this series when the ball was nipping around king kohli scored a duck and surrendered. Dont tell me about his 2nd inn century . When he came at the crease score was 191 for 2.

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