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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    You can't compare people generation to generation because skill and knowledge is passed down over time and overall increases over time.

    The only way too compare players is to their contemporaries. Then you look at how much of a gap there was between them.

    Then you compare current players and the gap in skill and talent between them and their contemporaries.

    For example what is the closest average to Bradman's in his era and what is the closest average to Tendulkar or Vivs in his era.

    Then you get a clear understanding of what it means to be great.
    And who is going to ensure that the modern day greats are competing with the same Amateur level batsmen as Bradman did and only from 2 countries ? This is nothing new you are saying and has been thoroughly dissected and answered right here on this page.

    So now one of 2 things will happen:

    1. You will pretend that Bradmans peers were outstanding cricketers just like any modern day cricketer
    2. Or you will run away from this thread.

    Otherwise every single aspect of Bradman and his dominance has been meticulously dissected and addressed.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And who is going to ensure that the modern day greats are competing with the same Amateur level batsmen as Bradman did and only from 2 countries ? This is nothing new you are saying and has been thoroughly dissected and answered right here on this page.

    So now one of 2 things will happen:

    1. You will pretend that Bradmans peers were outstanding cricketers just like any modern day cricketer
    2. Or you will run away from this thread.

    Otherwise every single aspect of Bradman and his dominance has been meticulously dissected and addressed.
    There were actually 5 countries playing during Bradmans era nothing like re writing facts is there Australia England West Indies South Africa and India in this period India were genuine minnows while SA and West Indies won some matches but weren't as strong as England and Australia.
    Bradmans average was a long way ahead but otherwise a handful averaged over 50 despite hundreds and thousands of batsmen playing test and FC only a tiny percentage could make a mark at test level it tells you it wasn't club cricket was it the difficulty level was high enough for batsmen to struggle to average over 50.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Going by your logic will you accept someone from school cricket level as being better than Kohli if he avgs twice as everyone else at that level?
    After reading a ton of arguments here, this makes the most sense.

    Bradman's era was of amateurs. If someone's doing really well among them, far ahead of the rest, that does not mean he can be compared to the pros where the game is highly developed and competitive.


    Someone doing mighty good at school level cricket (far ahead of peers), even in the 80s, cannot be compared to the pros playing at the international level.


    Bradman's era can probably be compared to today's school or college level cricket, maybe not even that. The game has evolved SO SO SO much.

    His record would've had some value if the game at that time was similar to today's, similar competitiveness, skills etc.
    Last edited by Hawkeye; 9th November 2018 at 00:43.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cric1234 View Post
    There were actually 5 countries playing during Bradmans era nothing like re writing facts is there Australia England West Indies South Africa and India in this period India were genuine minnows while SA and West Indies won some matches but weren't as strong as England and Australia.
    which is why it is a two horse race for all practical purposes. and most importantly bradman never played in any of these countries barring England. That tells you their place.

    Bradmans average was a long way ahead but otherwise a handful averaged over 50 despite hundreds and thousands of batsmen playing test and FC only a tiny percentage could make a mark at test level it tells you it wasn't club cricket was it the difficulty level was high enough for batsmen to struggle to average over 50.
    Yeah why dont you actually prove how the standard was indeed comparable to modern day Test level using technical analysis Sorry your words dont mean anything. See if you can refute my Technical analysis of Jack Hobbs that made earlier.


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  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cric1234 View Post
    There were actually 5 countries playing during Bradmans era nothing like re writing facts is there Australia England West Indies South Africa and India in this period India were genuine minnows while SA and West Indies won some matches but weren't as strong as England and Australia.
    Bradmans average was a long way ahead but otherwise a handful averaged over 50 despite hundreds and thousands of batsmen playing test and FC only a tiny percentage could make a mark at test level it tells you it wasn't club cricket was it the difficulty level was high enough for batsmen to struggle to average over 50.
    Over 70% of Bradman's matches were against England. The remaining 15 were against extremely substandard teams and Australia typically won by an innings and 100+ runs.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    After reading a ton of arguments here, this makes the most sense.

    Bradman's era was of amateurs. If someone's doing really well among them, far ahead of the rest, that does not mean he can be compared to the pros where the game is highly developed and competitive.


    Someone doing mighty good at school level cricket (far ahead of peers), even in the 80s, cannot be compared to the pros playing at the international level.


    Bradman's era can probably be compared to today's school or college level cricket, maybe not even that. The game has evolved SO SO SO much.

    His record would've had some value if the game at that time was similar to today's, similar competitiveness, skills etc.
    Exactly ! However I have no idea how people can keep pretending that Cricket was played at the same level as today especially after seeing those crystal clear video clips. Imagine if there was no footage !! I would be laughed at ridiculed and perhaps kicked outta here as a troll ! It tells us the power and absolute stranglehold the old boys club has - and still does - in the world of cricket.


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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    After reading a ton of arguments here, this makes the most sense.

    Bradman's era was of amateurs. If someone's doing really well among them, far ahead of the rest, that does not mean he can be compared to the pros where the game is highly developed and competitive.


    Someone doing mighty good at school level cricket (far ahead of peers), even in the 80s, cannot be compared to the pros playing at the international level.


    Bradman's era can probably be compared to today's school or college level cricket, maybe not even that. The game has evolved SO SO SO much.

    His record would've had some value if the game at that time was similar to today's, similar competitiveness, skills etc.
    So every school kid averages 100 when playing school cricket?

    What are you even saying?

    Bradman was playing against whatever the best standard there was at that time. Otherwise why werent there many other batsmen with same average or even 70 or 80? Playing with almost half size bat in comparison to now a days and playing against the best players available and beating everyone by almost having double the average is not an easy task.

    No single era can have same skilset as era before, skillset was different even a decade ago let alone decades ago. Wickets were totally different 7-8 years ago, as they were more bowling friendly so we cant even compare current batsmen of that time.

    So comparing era is always gonna be difficult and subjective to a certain extent.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by austerlitz View Post
    I showed you with pictures how bradman is different from tendulkar and how smith is partially similar.You simply ignored it all.And now saying thats not how it works.In this case we will just have to agree to disagree then.
    Can't use still pictures to analyze techniques. Just doesn't cut it.

    I don't see much problem.He doesnt use his bottom hand at all ,so the foot being in air doesnt make the ball go in air because he can still get on top of it.Its a shot for slow bowling.
    What!!! I just pointed out a whole list of problems with his footwork and no I dont agree with what you are saying ... because the single biggest requirement for playing any defensive shot is that both feet should be grounded otherwise you have no balance.

    If you dont agree with that then there's no point continuing this technical discussion as it is such a basic thing. But feel free to demonstrate that technique to any serious batting coach and see if they can keep a straight face. Just dont tell you copied it from Jack Hobbs.

    Another thing - try the shot he demonstrates at 5:23 ( there is a slow mo of that same shot at 5:29 ). See for yourselves how wrong it is.



    How he would do against todays fast bowling is anybodys guess.Obviously he wont play till 48 today.And hobbs is nowhere near bradman.Bradman doesnt average 58,he averages 100.Incomparable difference..
    And we can easily see why there is a huge difference which is my entire point. You just dont want to accept that there is a day and night difference between Hobbs and even the avg modern day batsman let alone the greats. Therefore That difference is meaningless. If a modern day greats competition was with similarly very amateur players then what you say has some merit to it. You just simply can't compare Hobbs to SRT, Lara, Kohli etc. No way.

    Just can't believe someone would even entertain the thought that Hobbs technique will even work today. Anyone with that technique won't last 10 mins today against top class fast bowlers.

    Sorry but there is a massive massive difference in our understanding of the game and its minute very very technical aspects. Iam all for learning new things and having an open mind but it ***HAS*** to be based on some really rock solid technical basis and sound logic ... otherwise this will be the usual deadbeat thread like all Bradman threads.
    Last edited by Tusker; 9th November 2018 at 01:52.

  9. #329
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    Bradman was at disadvantage in terms of the current training facilities, bats and equipements etc.
    He didnt have any of these things so undermining his average just bcz of standard of cricket which was same for everyone at that time is a weak argument.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    Bradman was playing against whatever the best standard there was at that time. Otherwise why werent there many other batsmen with same average or even 70 or 80?
    Because the competition level of cricket in those days was not even a fraction of what it is today. This is because Cricket wasnt as popular and lucrative as it is today therefore his competition was not really just as same as current day greats.

    It was mostly amateur cricket back then which is not at all conducive to attracting talent. So imagine the likes of Kohli , Root, Smith etc competing with school and club level cricketers. Might only get out due to boredom. Just because it says Test match on scorecards then and now doesnt mean the two matches are played at the same standard and skill level.

    What amazes me is how people just simply dont get this at all. Quite mind boggling


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  11. #331
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    Jack Hobbs era is before Bradman he had retired by the 30s and 40s him and Sutcliffe were the first great batsmen to average over 50 opening was easier in this era with it gradually becoming more difficult.
    His style is suited to the bowling he's facing and pitches he's batting on more faster bowlers would emerge during 30s and 40s and beyond.
    Larwood Lindwall Tyson Trueman and others came after Hobbs retired it can only be guess work how well he would've done but an average of 56 isn't above modern day greats and nowhere near Bradman however he did well in his era.

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan24 View Post
    So every school kid averages 100 when playing school cricket?

    What are you even saying?

    Bradman was playing against whatever the best standard there was at that time.

    No, not every school kid averages 100. What I'm saying is, if one of the school level kids averages 100 but the rest 40-50, that does not make the 100 averaging school level kid the same level as top professionals of that game.

    Bradman's era was very far away and different in skills, competitiveness to today's game. A person averaging 100 at that time cannot be compared to today's pros.

    Because it will be like comparing a school kid averaging 100 to a professional.

    Watch the videos man.. you'll know.

  13. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cric1234 View Post
    Jack Hobbs era is before Bradman he had retired by the 30s and 40s him and Sutcliffe were the first great batsmen to average over 50 opening was easier in this era with it gradually becoming more difficult.
    Actually its quite the opposite ( i.e if you go by the so called experts who rate him a better player on wet tracks than Bradman ) . In any case Hobbs played against Bradman in 2 series. Considering how littlle cricket was played in those days thats a significant overlap. And FC cricket for more than 6 years. So no thats not true. Nothing changes dramatically in a few yrs time.


    His style is suited to the bowling he's facing and pitches he's batting on more faster bowlers would emerge during 30s and 40s and beyond.
    Larwood Lindwall Tyson Trueman and others came after Hobbs retired it can only be guess work how well he would've done but an average of 56 isn't above modern day greats and nowhere near Bradman however he did well in his era.
    Bradman never played against Lindwall , Tyson and Trueman.


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  14. #334
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    Just to illustrate how almost everything about cricket was Amateurish ... have a read of Hobbs obituary published by Wisden

    "Jack Hobbs was cricket's most prolific batsman. He finished with 61,237 first-class runs and 197 centuries*, most of them stylishly made from the top of the Surrey or England batting orders. And he might have scored many more had the Great War not intervened, or if he hadn't been inclined to get out shortly after reaching 100 to let someone else have a go. Hobbs was known as "The Master", and scored consistently throughout a long career that didn't end till he was past 50. Half his hundreds came when he was over 40, and he remains, at 46 in 1928-29, the oldest man to score a Test century. His opening partnerships with Yorkshire's Herbert Sutcliffe are part of the game's rich folklore. Hobbs was also a charming man, and the world of cricket rejoiced in 1953 when he became the first professional cricketer to be knighted"
    the FC Century count is wrong because they didnt know if 2 hundreds made in Ceylon were in a FC match or not. Imagine such a thing happening today. Next it claims they were all stylishly made ( again a good example of why one should not take dated reviews as-is ... it might have been a stylish way to play in circa 1925 but not now) and most importantly that he got out to give others a chance ( you do this today and you are done as a cricketer ) and that half his FC Centuries came after age 40 ( I dont know what to say but lets say words fail me and leave it at that )

    If that does not portray the absolute total amateur scene then nothing else will.


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  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    No, not every school kid averages 100. What I'm saying is, if one of the school level kids averages 100 but the rest 40-50, that does not make the 100 averaging school level kid the same level as top professionals of that game.

    Bradman's era was very far away and different in skills, competitiveness to today's game. A person averaging 100 at that time cannot be compared to today's pros.

    Because it will be like comparing a school kid averaging 100 to a professional.

    Watch the videos man.. you'll know.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLLapepap48

    This is proper footage of a test match in 1946 full overs being shown there are hardly any bad bowls bowled like half trackers short and wide balls full tosses etc is this really worse than test or FC cricket today?

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cric1234 View Post
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLLapepap48

    This is proper footage of a test match in 1946 full overs being shown there are hardly any bad bowls bowled like half trackers short and wide balls full tosses etc is this really worse than test or FC cricket today?
    Do you the name of the left arm bowler bowling here at 3:36 : https://youtu.be/jLLapepap48?t=216

    What style of bowling according to you is he doing ? Spin/Medium Fast/Fast-Medium etc ... ?


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  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And who is going to ensure that the modern day greats are competing with the same Amateur level batsmen as Bradman did and only from 2 countries ? This is nothing new you are saying and has been thoroughly dissected and answered right here on this page.

    So now one of 2 things will happen:

    1. You will pretend that Bradmans peers were outstanding cricketers just like any modern day cricketer
    2. Or you will run away from this thread.

    Otherwise every single aspect of Bradman and his dominance has been meticulously dissected and addressed.
    If this was true then name another person in Bradmans era with a similar average.

    If everyone is amateur except for one person then why is he not average?

    Is Tesla not a genius because he didn't understand quantum physics like todays scientists?

    Tesla is a genius because he was well ahead of his contemporaries.

    If you put Tesla in todays society he would still succeed as an inventor because he would have the access we have now onto of his natural intellect.

    Similarly if you put Bradman in todays era with our training and knowledge then he would more than likely still be one of the most successful batsmen.

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    If this was true then name another person in Bradmans era with a similar average.
    Thats not the point. The point is you cannot compare amateur stats to Professional era stats. The two just arent comparable at all. Bradman could have averaged 4 times as the next best guy - it just does not matter. Reason - Standard of cricket.

    If everyone is amateur except for one person then why is he not average?
    He is an amateur too !!

    Is Tesla not a genius because he didn't understand quantum physics like todays scientists?

    Tesla is a genius because he was well ahead of his contemporaries.

    If you put Tesla in todays society he would still succeed as an inventor because he would have the access we have now onto of his natural intellect.
    Cant compare science and sports. For one thing you cannot learn how to bowl fast in Cricket and play a fast bowler. You either have that skill or you dont. In science I can learn from others and then add my own two cents.

    Similarly if you put Bradman in todays era with our training and knowledge then he would more than likely still be one of the most successful batsmen.
    And if Virat kohli were to face bowlers like in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLLapepap48 he would never get out.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Can't use still pictures to analyze techniques. Just doesn't cut it.



    What!!! I just pointed out a whole list of problems with his footwork and no I dont agree with what you are saying ... because the single biggest requirement for playing any defensive shot is that both feet should be grounded otherwise you have no balance.

    If you dont agree with that then there's no point continuing this technical discussion as it is such a basic thing. But feel free to demonstrate that technique to any serious batting coach and see if they can keep a straight face. Just dont tell you copied it from Jack Hobbs.

    Another thing - try the shot he demonstrates at 5:23 ( there is a slow mo of that same shot at 5:29 ). See for yourselves how wrong it is.





    And we can easily see why there is a huge difference which is my entire point. You just dont want to accept that there is a day and night difference between Hobbs and even the avg modern day batsman let alone the greats. Therefore That difference is meaningless. If a modern day greats competition was with similarly very amateur players then what you say has some merit to it. You just simply can't compare Hobbs to SRT, Lara, Kohli etc. No way.

    Just can't believe someone would even entertain the thought that Hobbs technique will even work today. Anyone with that technique won't last 10 mins today against top class fast bowlers.

    Sorry but there is a massive massive difference in our understanding of the game and its minute very very technical aspects. Iam all for learning new things and having an open mind but it ***HAS*** to be based on some really rock solid technical basis and sound logic ... otherwise this will be the usual deadbeat thread like all Bradman threads.
    All of what you are saying about hobbs is assumptions.That technique is suited for defense and slower bowling of the era.How he would cope in this era is difficult to say.In any case no one has argued hobbs would be better than modern day greats,though i have argued he would be better than hacks like dhawan and mediocrities like atherton .It is bradman that is being argued as the greatest even over modern day greats.
    There is no such 'issue' with fast bowling or footwork on bradman's case.And that avg is because of his unique technique which you are trying to sidestep by citing 'lack of enough videos' .
    What you cant argue against is bradman's technique is fundamentally different from classical orthodox technique in stance and bat arc.So the question is what is 'solid technical basis'?Is the orthodox classical technique really the best way.How do we know when others haven't even tried bradman's method.2 guys that have partially tried it -headley and smith have both been successful.

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by austerlitz View Post
    All of what you are saying about hobbs is assumptions.
    Absolutely not. Did you try to play the shots yourself ? What part of it is an assumption ? I described the technique using basic fundamentals of batting. And I did not invent those strokes out of thin air. Iam accurately describing what I see. If there is any assumptions being made they are by you. Because on the one hand you accept that he never faced any fast bowler but have no qualms in issuing blanket statements that his technique will work today at Test cricket.

    I have never seen any coach ask someone to play a backfoot defensive shot with one leg. Or skip down the pitch in that manner as I described in my earlier post ( front foot at 45 degrees and in the air and the toe pointing to Silly point when he has made contact ). If you think otherwise please point me in the direction of these coaches. Keep in mind that it is this exact technique that fetched him more than half his career Test hundreds after age 40 including a double hundred. If this does not ring all sorts of alarm bells then nothing else will.

    Dont take my word for it ... go ask some serious impartial reputed posters over here to analyze that technique to get a 2nd opinion.

    That technique is suited for defense and slower bowling of the era.How he would cope in this era is difficult to say.In any case no one has argued hobbs would be better than modern day greats,though i have argued he would be better than hacks like dhawan and mediocrities like atherton .It is bradman that is being argued as the greatest even over modern day greats.
    There is no such 'issue' with fast bowling or footwork on bradman's case.And that avg is because of his unique technique which you are trying to sidestep by citing 'lack of enough videos' .
    What you cant argue against is bradman's technique is fundamentally different from classical orthodox technique in stance and bat arc.So the question is what is 'solid technical basis'?Is the orthodox classical technique really the best way.How do we know when others haven't even tried bradman's method.2 guys that have partially tried it -headley and smith have both been successful.
    The reason Iam concentrating on Hobbs is because of the 2x theory. That is the main argument of every Bradman fan including you. Also you may not know this but Jack Hobbs is regarded as a better player than Bradman on bad pitches by experts of that time.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  21. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post

    Cant compare science and sports. For one thing you cannot learn how to bowl fast in Cricket and play a fast bowler. You either have that skill or you dont. In science I can learn from others and then add my own two cents.
    Imran Khan would beg to differ. Read his autobiography.

  22. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by humzy View Post
    Imran Khan would beg to differ. Read his autobiography.
    Beg to differ on what ?


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