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  1. #1
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    The most over-rated player ever?

    Who is the player who is very good but NOT as great as a lot of people think?

    For me - the biggest culprit is Mr Ian Botham.

    Don't get me wrong - he was a great player. But NOT as great as a lot of English supporters and analysts make him out to be. He was not in the same class as Imran either as a batsman or a bowler. He was a more destructive batsman - but failed against the best.

    1. He is famous for his performances in the Ashes - look at the teams he faced. They were awful Aussie teams. Lillee was finished when he was bowling to Botham.

    2. He completely failed against the many series in which he played against the great Windies teams. Contrast that to King Khan.

    3. This table below is the DEFINITIVE proof of how over-rated Botham is. You look at the difference between the batting and bowling averages. Bowling averages should be low. And batting averages should be high.The difference between the two is a true indicator of all round prowess. Imran kills Botham.


    Batting average Bowling average Difference
    Imran Khan 37.69 22.81 14.8
    Richard Hadlee 27.16 22.29 4.87
    Kapil Dev 31.05 29.64 0.41
    Ian Botham 33.54 28.40 5.14


    When I see some pundits (mainly English) put Botham in an alltime 11 - it makes me laugh. So i had to get this of my chest.

  2. #2
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    I put Botham and Afridi is the same league, lots of roar not enough bite.

  3. #3
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    It is unfair to compare any all rounder to Khan. Everyone diminished when contrasted to Imran Khan.

    The man averaged >51 batting and <20 whilst bowling. That's ATG stats for a specialist batsman and bowler.

    He is an unique outlier.

    That said, Botham is a match-winner. He is an ATG.

    The most overrated ever? Shahid Afridi, who else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Googly View Post
    Who is the player who is very good but NOT as great as a lot of people think?

    For me - the biggest culprit is Mr Ian Botham.

    Don't get me wrong - he was a great player. But NOT as great as a lot of English supporters and analysts make him out to be. He was not in the same class as Imran either as a batsman or a bowler. He was a more destructive batsman - but failed against the best.

    1. He is famous for his performances in the Ashes - look at the teams he faced. They were awful Aussie teams. Lillee was finished when he was bowling to Botham.

    2. He completely failed against the many series in which he played against the great Windies teams. Contrast that to King Khan.

    3. This table below is the DEFINITIVE proof of how over-rated Botham is. You look at the difference between the batting and bowling averages. Bowling averages should be low. And batting averages should be high.The difference between the two is a true indicator of all round prowess. Imran kills Botham.


    Batting average Bowling average Difference
    Imran Khan 37.69 22.81 14.8
    Richard Hadlee 27.16 22.29 4.87
    Kapil Dev 31.05 29.64 0.41
    Ian Botham 33.54 28.40 5.14


    When I see some pundits (mainly English) put Botham in an alltime 11 - it makes me laugh. So i had to get this of my chest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salman View Post
    I put Botham and Afridi is the same league, lots of roar not enough bite.
    well well well. One thing we must remember that stats don't always tell the full story.

    I have no doubt in my mind that Botham was a legend. He may not have fulfilled his potential and he may not deserve to be in an all time world eleven, but common he was a legend!

    PS: Afridi should be completely kept out of discussion when we are talking about the greats of the game.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza619 View Post
    well well well. One thing we must remember that stats don't always tell the full story.

    I have no doubt in my mind that Botham was a legend. He may not have fulfilled his potential and he may not deserve to be in an all time world eleven, but common he was a legend!

    PS: Afridi should be completely kept out of discussion when we are talking about the greats of the game.
    Yes - he was a legend. Agreed. I also said he was a GREAT player. No doubt. I'm just questiing HOW GREAT. And I'm clarifying how very clearly King Khan was ahead.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Googly View Post
    Who is the player who is very good but NOT as great as a lot of people think?

    For me - the biggest culprit is Mr Ian Botham.

    Don't get me wrong - he was a great player. But NOT as great as a lot of English supporters and analysts make him out to be. He was not in the same class as Imran either as a batsman or a bowler. He was a more destructive batsman - but failed against the best.

    1. He is famous for his performances in the Ashes - look at the teams he faced. They were awful Aussie teams. Lillee was finished when he was bowling to Botham.

    2. He completely failed against the many series in which he played against the great Windies teams. Contrast that to King Khan.

    3. This table below is the DEFINITIVE proof of how over-rated Botham is. You look at the difference between the batting and bowling averages. Bowling averages should be low. And batting averages should be high.The difference between the two is a true indicator of all round prowess. Imran kills Botham.


    Batting average Bowling average Difference
    Imran Khan 37.69 22.81 14.8
    Richard Hadlee 27.16 22.29 4.87
    Kapil Dev 31.05 29.64 0.41
    Ian Botham 33.54 28.40 5.14


    When I see some pundits (mainly English) put Botham in an alltime 11 - it makes me laugh. So i had to get this of my chest.

    Botham in first 50 Tests matches as an all rounder:

    - 10 Centuries and batting avg of 36.45
    - 19 five wickets hauls at an avg of 22.89

    If am remembering correctly, only Botham has 10+ centuries & 10+ five wickets hauls in entire history.


    The fastest in the history of Test cricket (in # of matches) to get the "doubles" of,

    1,000 runs and 100 wickets
    2,000 runs and 200 wickets
    3,000 runs and 300 wickets.

    The first player to score a century and take 10 wickets in the same Test match. He surely went downhill later but he did bring his A game with bat and ball both in the same period. A 5-fer and scoring a hundred in the same test has been done only 26 times in history. Few all rounders have done it 1-2 times. Botham did it 5 times - Twice against NZ and one time against PAK, IND and AUS. Most of his performances came before his decline.

    All rounder is some one who can bring his batting and bowling at the same time in a big way to influence the game. Botham did it a lot more than others , may be not sobers, but pretty much everyone else.

    Having said all this, Botham was neither an ATG bowler nor an ATG batsman, but surely an ATG all rounder. He is not going to make into my all time team. He won't be even a contender. IK will be a strong contender, but first half of Botham was a genuine all rounder. He was surely not effective against WI otherwise he would have been rated even higher as cricketer.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  7. #7
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    Im going to get slaughtered for saying this, but I think Shoaib Malik is very over rated by the current generation of Pakistan fans aged 17-24


    "The Indian bowling attack is as devastating as the Teletubbies"- Sir Ian Botham

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Botham in first 50 Tests matches as an all rounder:

    - 10 Centuries and batting avg of 36.45
    - 19 five wickets hauls at an avg of 22.89

    If am remembering correctly, only Botham has 10+ centuries & 10+ five wickets hauls in entire history.


    The fastest in the history of Test cricket (in # of matches) to get the "doubles" of,

    1,000 runs and 100 wickets
    2,000 runs and 200 wickets
    3,000 runs and 300 wickets.

    The first player to score a century and take 10 wickets in the same Test match. He surely went downhill later but he did bring his A game with bat and ball both in the same period. A 5-fer and scoring a hundred in the same test has been done only 26 times in history. Few all rounders have done it 1-2 times. Botham did it 5 times - Twice against NZ and one time against PAK, IND and AUS. Most of his performances came before his decline.

    All rounder is some one who can bring his batting and bowling at the same time in a big way to influence the game. Botham did it a lot more than others , may be not sobers, but pretty much everyone else.

    Having said all this, Botham was neither an ATG bowler nor an ATG batsman, but surely an ATG all rounder. He is not going to make into my all time team. He won't be even a contender. IK will be a strong contender, but first half of Botham was a genuine all rounder. He was surely not effective against WI otherwise he would have been rated even higher as cricketer.
    Top post.

    I know Botham ain't Pakistanis' favorite English player but the man was a match-winning legend.
    Last edited by WhenSultansBowled; 8th August 2017 at 14:16.

  9. #9
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    Andrew Flintoff. Will always remain an English hero because of the 2005 Ashes which is the only point in his entire career when he wasn't a completely mediocre cricketer.


    Now that you feel it, you don't

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Top post.

    I know Botham ain't Pakistanis' favorite English player but the man was a match-winning legend.
    Not against the great Windies Team in several test series. He performed poorly in all of them.

    Not against Imran Khan led Pakistan in 1987 where Imran outplayed him in the series.

    Not against Pakistan in 1992.

    Botham was a GREAT player. Undeniable. But NOT as great as he is made out.

  11. #11
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    Shahid Afridi. For one reason, the number of matches he got to play considering how below average he was.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  12. #12
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    I also believe Kapil Dev is a little over rated by us Indians. Brilliant all rounder who contributed a hell lot to Indian cricket, but we Indians tend to over rate him a little. Maybe partly because Imran Khan was much better. Pretty much how a lot of Pakistani fans try to over rate their batsmen to the level of Sachin and Sunny. Just my two cents.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    I also believe Kapil Dev is a little over rated by us Indians. Brilliant all rounder who contributed a hell lot to Indian cricket, but we Indians tend to over rate him a little. Maybe partly because Imran Khan was much better. Pretty much how a lot of Pakistani fans try to over rate their batsmen to the level of Sachin and Sunny. Just my two cents.
    Te lo juro when I read the Imran Khan bit I knew the Inzi bit was coming

    You showed big heart and complemented Imran but then... :littlefinger

  14. #14
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    Bear in mind just because I call these players overrated, doesn't mean they are not great They are all undoubtedly great players

    Australia:
    Mike Hussey

    England:
    Andrew Flintoff

    India:
    Kapil Dev ATG allrounder for sure. But some Indians put him level with Imran. Not close to him

    South Africa:
    AB de Villiers. He is good but the way people talk about him you would think he is Sachin-Lara-Ponting level. He is not even close. 4 th best batsman in his own team for most of his career behind Kallis, Amla and Smith.

    Pakistan:
    Miandad
    Inzamam
    Afridi

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Te lo juro when I read the Imran Khan bit I knew the Inzi bit was coming

    You showed big heart and complemented Imran but then... :littlefinger
    Not at all. I never had him in mind. I was just speaking about the general trend among fans from both those nations. Indian fans have this complex about Imran Khan and hence quite a lot of them try to berate him and try to place Kapil Dev higher. Likewise a lot of Pakistani fans have a complex about Sachin and Sunny and try to rate their batsmen on the same level.

    That was just my opinion, I never intended to offend anyone by speaking my mind.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  16. #16
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    waqar younis

  17. #17
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    I don't know why people claiming afridi as overrated i haven't saw anyone rating him so highly in my lifetime not even his own beloved fans

  18. #18
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    Shoaib malik.

    Mohammad yousuf.


    "Life is Pain"
    ~House~

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    Kapil Dev. Why in the world is someone with a bowling average of 29 and batting average of 30 called an ATG? He's a good all-rounder but nothing more than that.

  20. #20
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    Inzamam ul haq is another name.

    The guy never bought out his A game in icc tournaments. After that 1992 world cup he didnt perform in other icc tournaments. Or i could be wrong.

    But the 2007 world cup really left a bad impression about him


    "Life is Pain"
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  21. #21
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    From Pakistan Sahibzada Afridi followed by Godfather (in Mickey's words) Misbah.

    They always gave us false impression that Pakistan mai talent nahi ya mai na hota to Pakistan 250 bhi na kr saky.. Made us happy with mediocrity.. Highly overrated by Pakistanis.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  22. #22
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    Rohit sharma.

    Guy has two 200s to his name but i always found him over


    his batting avg is in the 30s.


    "Life is Pain"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Not at all. I never had him in mind. I was just speaking about the general trend among fans from both those nations. Indian fans have this complex about Imran Khan and hence quite a lot of them try to berate him and try to place Kapil Dev higher. Likewise a lot of Pakistani fans have a complex about Sachin and Sunny and try to rate their batsmen on the same level.

    That was just my opinion, I never intended to offend anyone by speaking my mind.
    Not similar. Kapil or any other Indian bowler are nowhere near Imran. Miandad and Younis are ATGs themselves.

  24. #24
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    From rest of world Indians and Englishmen are generally overrated while NZ, SL players are underrated. Australians and SAffers are rated fine.


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    Inzamam ul haq is another name.

    The guy never bought out his A game in icc tournaments. After that 1992 world cup he didnt perform in other icc tournaments. Or i could be wrong.

    But the 2007 world cup really left a bad impression about him
    Lol. He was over the hill in 2007. That in no way diminishes his status as a Pakistani legend and a great of his generation. Very good captain as well.

  26. #26
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    Other guy I find overrated is waqar younis, yes he had insane stats for a brief period of time, but the guy has been caught plenty of time ball tempering, and wasn't the same after his back injury, wasim was a much better and skillful bowler than him, Johnson is hugely overrated, so is Anderson,Infact broad has a better control than Anderson, though he is not as skillful as Anderson in swinging conditions.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vayuu View Post
    Other guy I find overrated is waqar younis, yes he had insane stats for a brief period of time, but the guy has been caught plenty of time ball tempering, and wasn't the same after his back injury, wasim was a much better and skillful bowler than him,
    You will rarely see anyone rating Waqar higher than Wasim so not surer why you think he is over rated.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    Bradman, who else.


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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    I also believe Kapil Dev is a little over rated by us Indians. Brilliant all rounder who contributed a hell lot to Indian cricket, but we Indians tend to over rate him a little. Maybe partly because Imran Khan was much better. Pretty much how a lot of Pakistani fans try to over rate their batsmen to the level of Sachin and Sunny. Just my two cents.
    Kapil Dev is overratted in Test , not in OD . In OD he was above other three all rounders.

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    I think Gary Sobers is the most over rated player in History.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    I think Gary Sobers is the most over rated player in History.
    If anything he is underrated. He averaged 75 with the bat in a decade of cricket in 50s and 60s and bowled 3 different styles of bowling and picked up 230 wickets @34 despite not getting to bash minnows. If he got to bash Bang/Zim, he would average <30 with the ball.

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    India: Ashwin, Jadeja,
    Srinath(by Indians only)
    Pakistan: Inzamam, Afridi, Amir

  33. #33
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    Ben Stokes, Daniel Vettori and Shahid Afridi

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    Virat Kohli easily.

    An average of < 50 and barely 45 away in Tests.. and to think that this dude was being compared to Donald Bradman when he was in his purple patch for making some double centuries at home..

    ODI Finals average of 22 in 8 matches. Failed comprehensively in the two most important ODI matches of his life - ICC World Cup 2015 Semi and CT 2017 Final.. two stages where his so called "chasing prowess" was needed more than any time else and he bailed like a tailender on both occasions.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Googly View Post
    Who is the player who is very good but NOT as great as a lot of people think?

    For me - the biggest culprit is Mr Ian Botham.

    Don't get me wrong - he was a great player. But NOT as great as a lot of English supporters and analysts make him out to be. He was not in the same class as Imran either as a batsman or a bowler. He was a more destructive batsman - but failed against the best.

    When I see some pundits (mainly English) put Botham in an alltime 11 - it makes me laugh. So i had to get this of my chest.
    Neither as batsman?

    It's not difficult to guess who could be better batsman

    Matches: 67
    Inn: 106
    Runs: 3806
    Avg: 36.95
    100s: 13
    HS: 220

    Matches: 88
    Inn: 126
    Runs: 3807
    Runs: 37.69
    HS: 136
    Runs: 6




    From 1977 to 1983, Botham was 2nd highest century scorer in world for 7 years.

    Gavaskar - 21
    Botham - 13
    Border - 12
    Chappell - 12
    Miandad - 11
    Richards - 10

    Botham was consistently among top 6-7 run getters in the world from his debut.

    He is probably only all rounder who ranked among top 10 batsman in ICC ranking.

    How can Imran be better batsman than Botham when he had already suprpassed him with more runs and 100s and similar average (Botham had more than 4000 runs at 37.5 once)

    Imran's avg of 50 from 1981 to 1992

    Imran was not even among top 25 run getters in world during that phase. Not among top 30 in world in list of top century makers. He never made into top 10 of batting rankings.
    Last edited by AlizeeFan; 9th August 2017 at 09:06.



  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Googly View Post
    3. This table below is the DEFINITIVE proof of how over-rated Botham is. You look at the difference between the batting and bowling averages. Bowling averages should be low. And batting averages should be high.The difference between the two is a true indicator of all round prowess. Imran kills Botham.


    Batting average Bowling average Difference
    Imran Khan 37.69 22.81 14.8
    Richard Hadlee 27.16 22.29 4.87
    Kapil Dev 31.05 29.64 0.41
    Ian Botham 33.54 28.40 5.14


    When I see some pundits (mainly English) put Botham in an alltime 11 - it makes me laugh. So i had to get this of my chest.
    And this Imran had overtaken this average difference only after 72 tests



























































































    MatBat AvBowl AvAve DiffStart DateBat AvBowl AvAve DiffStart Date
    12526.8-1.7928/07/775--3 Jun 1971
    212.520.2-7.6911/08/7719.6655-35.3325 Jul 1974
    312.7517.28-4.5310/02/7812.642.6-29.998 Aug 1974
    436.816.0420.7524/02/7816.1662.6-46.4322 Aug 1974
    539.51920.504/03/781839-20.999 Oct 1976
    648.1421.8526.2801/06/7817.3737.35-19.9823 Oct 1976
    755.6218.4137.215/06/7822.4438.63-16.1830 Oct 1976
    849.8818.0531.8329/06/7823.1842.55-19.3624 Dec 1976
    947.118.7728.3227/07/7822.1543.52-21.361 Jan 1977
    1043.5417.3326.210/08/7820.5733.86-13.2914 Jan 1977
    1141.6616.5425.1124/08/7819.3134.71-15.418 Feb 1977
    1242.2317.0525.1701/12/7819.1633.34-14.174 Mar 1977
    1339.3318.4820.8415/12/7821.3535.3-13.9418 Mar 1977
    1436.5818.4618.1229/12/7820.8134.72-13.91 Apr 1977
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    5437.9223.3214.626/08/8231.2222.438.787 Nov 1985
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    5636.924.0912.826/11/8230.122.217.8814 Mar 1986
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    6235.9724.5211.4411/08/8331.5221.959.5611 Feb 1987
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    6437.6124.9812.6220/01/8432.4822.1410.344 Mar 1987
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    7336.4826.2510.2223/08/8432.521.9110.5822 Apr 1988
    7436.4726.2810.1913/06/8532.9321.8411.0810 Feb 1989
    7536.6126.210.4127/06/8533.722.0411.6624 Feb 1989
    7636.6326.2810.3411/07/8535.2422.213.0415 Nov 1989
    7736.4926.3610.1301/08/8535.2322.3612.8623 Nov 1989
    7836.3326.529.8115/08/8535.5722.6112.951 Dec 1989
    7936.1326.379.7629/08/8535.4522.6512.799 Dec 1989
    8035.9126.419.4921/02/8635.2122.7312.4712 Jan 1990
    8135.3626.538.8307/03/8636.0322.7813.2419 Jan 1990
    8235.0826.688.3921/03/8636.8822.8714.013 Feb 1990
    8335.0326.578.4503/04/8637.6422.8714.7715 Nov 1990
    8434.6727.067.611/04/8636.922.8714.0323 Nov 1990
    8535.1227.068.0521/08/8637.2922.7614.526 Dec 1990
    8635.8927.098.7914/11/8638.2322.8115.4212 Dec 1991
    8735.427.258.1428/11/8638.2322.8115.4220 Dec 1991
    8835.3627.048.3126/12/8637.6922.8114.882 Jan 1992



  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Virat Kohli easily.

    An average of < 50 and barely 45 away in Tests.. and to think that this dude was being compared to Donald Bradman when he was in his purple patch for making some double centuries at home..

    ODI Finals average of 22 in 8 matches. Failed comprehensively in the two most important ODI matches of his life - ICC World Cup 2015 Semi and CT 2017 Final.. two stages where his so called "chasing prowess" was needed more than any time else and he bailed like a tailender on both occasions.
    Spot on there @shaz619 would agree with you here

    You, bro, are to Indians of PP what @Mamoon is to Pakistanis at PP keep it up! Love your posts.

  38. #38
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    Afridi
    Wahab Riaz
    Jayawardene
    Zaheer Khan
    Anderson
    Broad
    Flintoff
    KP

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Spot on there @shaz619 would agree with you here

    You, bro, are to Indians of PP what @Mamoon is to Pakistanis at PP keep it up! Love your posts.
    Well someone's got to counter the nauseating Kohli media propaganda that has infiltrated the minds of most Indian fans making them believe that he's some sort of a Godly figure in Indian cricket . Don't get me wrong, I don't think everything is doom and gloom with Indian cricket.. I'm a huge admirer of guys like Rahane and Pujara, these are the sort of guys who I think should epitomise Indian cricket, not some phoney pseudo macho Mr. Forbes Top 20 politician who goes missing more often than not when it matters, becomes a damsel-in-distress when the coach tries to do his job, blatantly tries to get "his boys" into the team at the cost of team balance (The Rohit- Pujara saga in 2015) and is basically an embarrassment as a captain of a cricket team due to his childish antics on the field.

  40. #40
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    Abdul Razzaq.

  41. #41
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    Shahid Afridi is very hugely overrated by some Pakistan fans. On the creedit side, he won many ODIs and he was key in the World T20 win.

    However, he was never a GREAT player. He was an EXCITING player only.

  42. #42
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    Afridi.

  43. #43
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    Dale Steyn , ABD, Jayasuriya, Afridi , flintoff, kevin pieterson, Inzi, to name but a few, great players in their own right, but too many times i have seen them mentioned up there with ATG's like Tendulker, Wasim Imran etc..

  44. #44
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    I hate to say it and I know many will disagree but it has to be Kohli.
    Hyped to no end despite failing in several high profile games and having a modest test record.
    Amazing in bilaterals and ICC tournament group stage games though...

  45. #45
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    Every player who is not from your country and whom you do not like and/ or are jealous of his achievements is easy to diss off as an over rated player. Look at the records of players whom you regard as overrated. These records were made on the real field in the real matches aganst real opposition, not on some computer games. One cannot have long and successful international careers if they did not have it in them.

    To take the example of Botham, for instance, he rewrote records books when he arrived. Scoring century in a match and taking five wickets in an innings was considered a rare achievement and previous greats had achieved it only once in their careers. Botham did it seven times. He in fact became the first to record the double of a century in a match plus take ten wickets in a match. He turned the Ashes series around in 1981 from a series that was looking like going Australia's way till well into the second test.

    Botham's greatness cannot be pooh poohed by people who were perhaps not even born at the time Botham was active.
    Last edited by squarecut; 9th August 2017 at 14:25.

  46. #46
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    Hafeez

  47. #47
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    Sir Ian Botham's first sixty tests were little short of miraculous. After that, injuries gradually reduced him. In his position after 1985 I would have turned myself into a solid #5 batter and off-spinner - one of his 24 fivefers came bowling off-breaks.

    His figures against WI suffered because they made him skipper against them, a role he was not suited to, for ten tests in a row. He started thinking about what he was doing, fatal in an instinctual player. They should gave given it to Gooch, but he was feeling his way after being promoted to opener at the time.

    I wouldn't put him in an England ATG side, which would be.....

    Hobbs
    Hutton
    Hammond (c)
    Compton
    May
    KP
    Knott (w)
    Statham
    Trueman
    Laker





    I think the most overrated is Tendulkar. While clearly excellent, I rate Richard, Lara and even Dravid higher. Too many times Tendulkar would disappear when the pressure was on, and leave the hard yards to his Wall or his VVS.
    Last edited by Robert; 9th August 2017 at 21:35.

  48. #48
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    And Botham was a better batter than Imran, who could uncharitably be described as a red ink merchant with a vast number of not outs to artificially swell his average.

  49. #49
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    Waqar Younis
    Anil Kumble
    James Anderson

    None of them is an ATG nor even among top 3 bowlers in their playing days.

  50. #50
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    AB de Villiers.


    Swing it like Akram, whack it like Afridi, live it like Inti.

  51. #51
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    I also think KP and Gilchrist are overrated.

    Good stats but not ATG level by any means yet they still find themselves in many World XI and Best XI teams for some reason.

  52. #52
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    The fraud, Sahibzada Shahid Khan Afridi


    Hum na hon hamare baad, Sarfraz Sarfraz

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarfarazian92 View Post
    The fraud, Sahibzada Shahid Khan Afridi
    Overrated? Yes. But fraud? How?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Overrated? Yes. But fraud? How?
    Fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.


    Hum na hon hamare baad, Sarfraz Sarfraz

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarfarazian92 View Post
    Fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
    Still doesn't make sense. He doesn't have any remarkable achievements in the game. And it's his fans who unjustifiably credit him with qualities.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Still doesn't make sense. He doesn't have any remarkable achievements in the game. And it's his fans who unjustifiably credit him with qualities.
    His fans do unjustifiably credit him with quality, but he also thinks of himself as some Pakistani legend.

    He doesn't have any remarkable achievements, yet he thinks he's made of some different gravy.


    Hum na hon hamare baad, Sarfraz Sarfraz

  57. #57
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    Shoaib Akthar.
    Always found him average at best whenever he used to play against India. I still remember that six Sachin tonked against him in 2003 World cup match and how Dravid used to toy his bowling in Test matches.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarfarazian92 View Post
    His fans do unjustifiably credit him with quality, but he also thinks of himself as some Pakistani legend.

    He doesn't have any remarkable achievements, yet he thinks he's made of some different gravy.
    He isn;t the most overrated Pakistani ever, forget about the most overrated cricketer. Though he was probably the most overhyped Pak cricketer, the tag of boom boom got to his head especially in the last decade. To please a section of the crowd he went into Super Saiyan mode far more than he needed to, if he batted normally I'd say he could have averaged a good 5~10 higher, with a few not outs. But some of the cricket commentators & a large section of the crowd would just go Boom Boom, I guess he obliged even when the team needed him more.

  59. #59
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    Yasir Shah is another one. He was being hyped up to be a future ATG by Pakistani fans and no other than Warnie the legend himself.

    Everything went south after his 10fer at Lords and perhaps the hype started to get to his head.

    Worse was to come and he got a phainty of a lifetime down under, completely helpless against a rampaging Warner and looking completely clueless as Starc whacked him to all parts of the MCG. A bowling average of 84 for that series, has to be one of the worst individual bowling performances in Aus in recent memory.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balthazar View Post
    Shoaib Akthar.
    Always found him average at best whenever he used to play against India. I still remember that six Sachin tonked against him in 2003 World cup match and how Dravid used to toy his bowling in Test matches.
    Ha!


    It is scary how more than 1.324 billion humans can't produce a half decent pacer. Let alone anyone comparable to Akhtar

  61. #61
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    Well, to be an overrated player means either your skill is really not great at all, or your rating is simply waaay too inflated.

    My list:

    Shane Warne - Often called the Bradman of bowling, greatest bowler ever, Australia's MVP, a once-in-a-lifetime cricketer, one of five cricketers of the century, etc. Yes, he was the greatest leggie, but he tends to get so much more credit than he deserves. It is said that he mastered leg-spin, the hardest skill and revived leg-spin. So? That in itself doesnt make him a more effective bowler. Notably failed against India, was second best against Tendulkar/Lara, but despite his obvious flaws, he is presented as someone destined for cricket's Mt. Rushmore.

    Wasim Akram - Speaking as one of Wasim's big fans, I fail to see why pundits rate him so so highly. He regularly appears on most all-time XI lists, and considered the best bowler of all-time by most in the subcontinent, but the reality is that, especially in test cricket, his achievements are modest compared to his peers.

    Virender Sehwag - A terrific opener, albeit one who was consistently exposed outside the subcontinent and in the swinging conditions of England, New Zealand and South Africa. I have never seen a batsman so quickly go from marauder to flat foot once the wicket swings a bit. Yet was given a rating up to the moon based on his admittedly devastating knocks on flat tracks.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    Well, to be an overrated player means either your skill is really not great at all, or your rating is simply waaay too inflated.


    Virender Sehwag - A terrific opener, albeit one who was consistently exposed outside the subcontinent and in the swinging conditions of England, New Zealand and South Africa. I have never seen a batsman so quickly go from marauder to flat foot once the wicket swings a bit. Yet was given a rating up to the moon based on his admittedly devastating knocks on flat tracks.
    Are you sure ? He has scored test centuries outside the subcontinent in almost all the countries that you have named. He scored a century on debut in South Africa. He has scored century in Australia as well.

  63. #63
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    Sehwag has scored test century in England as well. In New Zealand he scored three ODI centuries in swinging conditions.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by squarecut View Post
    Are you sure ? He has scored test centuries outside the subcontinent in almost all the countries that you have named. He scored a century on debut in South Africa. He has scored century in Australia as well.
    Australia with less swing and good bounce suited his style of play. But he averages in 20, 25 and 27 in NZ, SA and England and as his career progressed he seemed more at sea in these conditions.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    Waqar Younis
    Anil Kumble
    James Anderson

    None of them is an ATG nor even among top 3 bowlers in their playing days.
    Well, even Wasim was not better than Donald, McGrath and Ambrose. So not being among the top 3 is a function of competition and can't be the sole criterion of judging some one as ATG.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  66. #66
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    To add to my point - I consider Waqar an ATG, even though a tier below when compared to McGrath, Ambrose, Donald and Wasim. Simply based on what he did in career. Kumble was not an ATG spinner. He needed to do better to make the cut. Anderson was never in contention.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  67. #67
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    Sachin, Wasim, khan, ab de Villeres, Viv on this forum

    Bradman on neutral forums from what I have seen

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Sachin, Wasim, khan, ab de Villeres, Viv on this forum
    Agree here. It's like poking a hornets nest when you point out some of the negatives in each player.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by subshakerz View Post
    Australia with less swing and good bounce suited his style of play. But he averages in 20, 25 and 27 in NZ, SA and England and as his career progressed he seemed more at sea in these conditions.
    Oz with zero swing & little extra bounce, basically pile on the runs, is what the MO was for Oz in their home domination over the last decade. That's how they neutered most opposition attacks, except SA, when they did have swinging conditions in 2010/11 Eng routed them with 3 innings defeat, an feat almost unheard of since the days of Larwood.
    Last edited by R0H1T; 10th August 2017 at 13:50.

  70. #70
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    wonderful topic to discuss..off season

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by msb314 View Post
    I also think KP and Gilchrist are overrated.

    Good stats but not ATG level by any means yet they still find themselves in many World XI and Best XI teams for some reason.
    There is very good argument for gilchrist to be greatest all-rounder ever (not me personally). Keeper averaging 47 brings invaluable stability to any side

  72. #72
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    Another thing to remember about Botham is that he took more test catches than Imran, Hadlee and Kapil put together, so he really helped the other bowlers. Best slipper for England I can remember, except perhaps Strauss.

  73. #73
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    This is an interesting thread.

    I'm curious to know people who are rating Bradman, Botham, Waqar, Kumble as 'most overrated cricketer ever', have these people watched them play? If they haven't seen them play and are basing their judgement on statistics the by all means Adam Voges would be regarded by them as the most under-rated cricketer ever.

    I always find it funny when people reach to conclusions without knowing the subject matter.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post

    His figures against WI suffered because they made him skipper against them, a role he was not suited to, for ten tests in a row. He started thinking about what he was doing, fatal in an instinctual player. They should gave given it to Gooch, but he was feeling his way after being promoted to opener at the time.
    Agree with a lot of what you said. But not this bit.

    How many series did he play against Windies? A lot.

    How many series was he captain v Windies? one? I may be wrong but i was not many!


    Also- yes - his first 60 tests were very good. Apart from against Windies. He mostly failed against Imran Khan's Pakistan. And the Aussies were not that good in Botham's time.

  75. #75
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    Most overrated cricketer in recent times has to be Mustafiz Rahman. When he debut against India he was bit mystery bowler, his cutters were hard to picked. His fans even called him next coming of Wasim. Two years later, when his cutter have been found out, he is even struggling to contain runs. In order for him to be effective, he needs pitch that suits his style of bowling, his cutters doesn't grip on green/flat pitch, and he doesn't swing/seam either. I can see he is gonna have tough times ahead specially if he is only gonna rely on cutters.

  76. #76
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    Yousuf, Sehwag (in tests), Dilshan, Harbhajan and of course Afridi

  77. #77
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    Kapil is not overrated. He is an ATG in odi and close to being one in tests. Carried for long because of weak bowling lineup and ended with 434 wickets.Took his team to WC win in 83.

    An ATG cricketer overall.

  78. #78
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    Graeme Hick springs to mind.

    Smashed bowlers to all parts in county cricket then the likes of Waqar Younis made him look like a club player.



  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Googly View Post
    Agree with a lot of what you said. But not this bit.

    How many series did he play against Windies? A lot.

    How many series was he captain v Windies? one?
    Four. 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986.

    Two - ten tests in a row. The ultimate baptism of fire for a young skipper!

  80. #80
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    Among the Indians, Ravi Shastri and Kris Srikkant.

    Surprising that no one has mentioned these two!

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