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  1. #241
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    Love watching Kohli bat. Such a class player.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    @Proactive_ no Response?

    Look what happens when we sort that stat by Avg and limit it to min 20 wkts:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling

    We get Bracken, BLee, Kapil etc >>>> Waqar (per your logic)

    Look at Venky, Tendulkar, Nehra stats ....
    The obvious flaw in your argument is discarding matches other than what deemed as "Knockouts". As I said, in multi team tournaments, every match assumes much larger importance due to the NRR factor and the fact that results other than concerning your team aren't in your control, prompting the teams to play at their best every single time they come on to the field. In that regard, here are the proper stats:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling

    Waqar Younis

    Matches: 171
    Wickets: 279
    Average: 23.44
    SR: 29.9

    Right there amongst the very best.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Still much more relevant than 95% of the ODI cricket today. The hierarchy is clear:

    World Cups > CTs > Multi team tournaments > Meaningless bilaterals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    The obvious flaw in your argument is discarding matches other than what deemed as "Knockouts". s I said, in multi team tournaments, every match assumes much larger importance due to the NRR factor and the fact that results other than concerning your team aren't in your control, prompting the teams to play at their best every single time they come on to the field
    No they don't come even closer to KO's. Knock outs are knock outs. End of story. The same reason why you discounted Kohli's inngs against Pakistan in the CT and the 2015 WC opening matches.

    And then there is your own equation (see above) where WC >> Mutli teams ... it is very clear that likes of Madan Lal, Bracken, Maharoof, Kyle Mills are all better bowlers than Waqar Younis.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...4;type=bowling


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  4. #244
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    When the subject in case is Kohli, WC matches are important but when subject is Waqar, WC matches dont hold more value. Learn to believe and write unbiased facts. Try not to show that you are very knowledgable in cricket, certainly you are not.

  5. #245
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    Read from Kohli haters in this thread and u realise that :
    1. Didn't score enough in finals
    2. Didn't perform in England tests

    These are the only two points left for them to argue nowadays

    Also shows how Kohli has ticked all the boxes in achievement except few pending

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    No they don't come even closer to KO's. Knock outs are knock outs. End of story. The same reason why you discounted Kohli's inngs against Pakistan in the CT and the 2015 WC opening matches.

    And then there is your own equation (see above) where WC >> Mutli teams ... it is very clear that likes of Madan Lal, Bracken, Maharoof, Kyle Mills are all better bowlers than Waqar Younis.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...4;type=bowling
    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    No they don't come even closer to KO's. Knock outs are knock outs. End of story. The same reason why you discounted Kohli's inngs against Pakistan in the CT and the 2015 WC opening matches.

    And then there is your own equation (see above) where WC >> Mutli teams ... it is very clear that likes of Madan Lal, Bracken, Maharoof, Kyle Mills are all better bowlers than Waqar Younis.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...4;type=bowling
    When did I discount Kohli's innings in those matches? I said that the higher the stakes, the more his average falls, which is true.

    Let's go through this again:

    Virat Kohli :

    In bilaterals (against Top 6 teams):

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Average: 59.15

    In tournaments of 3 teams or more barring WC and Champions Trophy:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Average: 42.32

    In WC and Champions Trophy:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Average: 43.30

    In WC and Champions Trophy Knockouts:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Average (against Top 6 Teams): 29.16
    Including Bangladesh: 39.14

    Average in multi team tournament Knockouts except WC and Champions Trophy:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Average: 17.75

    The facts are here. An average of almost 60 falls down to the 40s, 30s and the 20s as soon as he encounters any ODI cricket except the bilaterals. The correlation is startling yet very evident and irrefutable any way yyou look at it. The bowlers you are trying to slander may have performed less than the others in one or two of the aforementioned circumstances but still on the whole their performances are on the level that justifies their status as greats. For Kohli, it doesn't. There are sharp drops in his performance in just about every permutation of the non bilateral scenarios.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haripotter View Post
    Read from Kohli haters in this thread and u realise that :
    1. Didn't score enough in finals
    2. Didn't perform in England tests

    These are the only two points left for them to argue nowadays

    Also shows how Kohli has ticked all the boxes in achievement except few pending
    No, there are several more:

    - Zero performances of note in WC KO matches.
    - Inability to play the moving ball in tests and ODIs.
    - Zero centuries in won matches against Australia, England, South Africa away (average in won matches in those countries against the home attack: 20).
    - Untested against Pakistan away.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  8. #248
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    Wow, what a poor player!!! Why such a poor player has so many haters???? He must be dreaming to be like ATG batsmen of Pakistan, I hope his dreams remain only dreams. Ranking suggest Pakistan is not a top team against which a batsman has to be tested to be called a great batsman.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    No, there are several more:

    - Zero performances of note in WC KO matches.
    - Inability to play the moving ball in tests and ODIs.
    - Zero centuries in won matches against Australia, England, South Africa away (average in won matches in those countries against the home attack: 20).
    - Untested against Pakistan away.
    who is n.o 1 batsman according to you ? And why dnt you consider wasim or waqar good bowlers as i will bring their averages as well in some world cup important matches or some matches which will be important when they failed .
    Anyway tell me the names of batsmen who you truely consider top batsman
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 9th September 2017 at 18:41.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    The obvious flaw in your argument is discarding matches other than what deemed as "Knockouts". As I said, in multi team tournaments, every match assumes much larger importance due to the NRR factor and the fact that results other than concerning your team aren't in your control, prompting the teams to play at their best every single time they come on to the field. In that regard, here are the proper stats:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling

    Waqar Younis

    Matches: 171
    Wickets: 279
    Average: 23.44
    SR: 29.9

    Right there amongst the very best.
    We will also decide somethings. So only you will decide what is important and what is not ? we will only consider world cup performances.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by akki View Post
    We will also decide somethings. So only you will decide what is important and what is not ? we will only consider world cup performances.
    Completely fine with me. But that would also mean that you put all the intriguing multi team tournaments of the 80s and 90s on the same level with the vanilla bilateral ODI scene of today, which is also fine by me but I just find it a bit strange, that's all.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by akki View Post
    We will also decide somethings. So only you will decide what is important and what is not ? we will only consider world cup performances.
    Like i mentioned earlier, he will twist stats in a way that argument favours him. That is why i stopped having debate with him. Its pointless exercise when someone is too biased and bitter. You have more chance of winning a lotto than convince him.

  13. #253
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    Don't think anyone can argue that he's borderline an ATG player and any team would want him in their side. Think there's an argument to debate if he's the best ever, or best post-70s, whereby he hasn't done enough but he's still not even 30.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by idrizzy View Post
    Don't think anyone can argue that he's borderline an ATG player and any team would want him in their side. Think there's an argument to debate if he's the best ever, or best post-70s, whereby he hasn't done enough but he's still not even 30.
    Your last point is very important.

    Most batsmen hit their true peak between 28-32. He's just entered what should be the best part of his career.


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  15. #255
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    If you take away the boundaries as well as the non boundaries, then what is left of Kohli's score ? A big ZERO. That is how mediocre a batsman he is. His zeroes are artificially covered up by the boundaries and non boundaries otherwise he is a mediocre batsman unnecessary being hyped up.

  16. #256
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    An ATG ODI player already without a doubt, and may well end up being the GOAT.

    He is not even a great in Test cricket yet though, let alone an ATG. Got a lot to prove in the Test arena.

  17. #257
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    7 out of the 8 batsmen averaging 50+ have come in the last 10 years only Bevan achieved it pre 2000s that too including a high no of not outs.
    Are batsman better now or are pitches the flattest they've ever been in ODIs looks more like the latter.
    Who is the best in recent times Kohli or De Villiers average and s/r combination puts it in ABs favour at the moment.
    Quinton De Kock already has 12 hundreds in ODIs can he get past 30 hundreds there's every chance of he keeps up his form.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    An ATG ODI player already without a doubt, and may well end up being the GOAT.

    He is not even a great in Test cricket yet though, let alone an ATG. Got a lot to prove in the Test arena.
    Pujara/Rahane and Rahul: all 3 of them are better test players than VK

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    Pujara/Rahane and Rahul: all 3 of them are better test players than VK
    How are Rahul and Pujara better than Kohli in Tests?

    I get your logic behind Rahane (even though I do not agree with it) since Rahane played some really important innings for India in England, SA and Australia. I don't agree with it since Rahane struggles against spin, whereas Kohli doesn't. Also, other than England, Rahane has not outplayed Kohli in any of the away tours. Kohli has out batted Rahane in Australia and at home.

    But other than 1 century in Australia, what has Rahul done abroad to be rated ahead of Kohli. Same goes for Pujara. Pujara, Rahul and Kohli have all done well at home, whereas Rahane has struggled in comparison.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    When did I discount Kohli's innings in those matches?
    you did that by repeatedly pointing out his failures in matches that are essentially knockouts (matches that matter to quote you your own words) ... therefore if we use those exact same standards we get Madanlal, Bracken etc > Waqar

    This would be an appropriate time for you to go missing from this thread.

    here are your posts from the 1st page of this very thread :


    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Useless record. Got owned in the ODIs that mattered most - The 2015 WC Semi and the CT Final.. batted like a tailender in both. Proper bilateral bully lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Averages 23 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals and 31 in Eliminators with no hundreds. He can keep all the T20 records though where he can compete with the likes of Samuels and Brathwaite for the top spot. I'll take even Dhawan over him as an ODI batsman anyday. Kohli's record is the epitomy of soft runs and going AWOL when the stakes are high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Dhawan atleast didn't get blown away twice in two balls like a tailender and hung on there for a bit, same during the WC 2015 Semi, both instances where King Kohli gave us an exhibition on proper masterful chasing:

    1(13)
    5 (9)
    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    He has been a colossal failure in tournaments. You really think these hundreds when the series is 3-0 and 4-0 really count for anything when you average barely 23 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals and 31 in all ODI Eliminators? That's a dreadful record. Not worth the hype, sorry.


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  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    you did that by repeatedly pointing out his failures in matches that are essentially knockouts (matches that matter to quote you your own words) ... therefore if we use those exact same standards we get Madanlal, Bracken etc > Waqar

    This would be an appropriate time for you to go missing from this thread.

    here are your posts from the 1st page of this very thread :
    And which of these quotes state that I don't rate performances in multi team tournaments? I've been shouting from the rooftops that Kohli's average drops from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s and 20s as the stakes rise, which is true. None of those quotes contradict my point. I've pointed out his multi team tournament records (Non WC/CT) as much as I've pointed out his Knockout records, but obviously you wouldn't quote it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

    I never said that Kohli hasn't played a single good/great ODI innings in his life. It's that his overall records in those circumstances are a far cry from the expected records of someone being labelled as an all time great as I explained in post 246.

  22. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    No, there are several more:

    - Zero performances of note in WC KO matches.
    - Inability to play the moving ball in tests and ODIs.
    - Zero centuries in won matches against Australia, England, South Africa away (average in won matches in those countries against the home attack: 20).
    - Untested against Pakistan away.
    Tested against Pakistan at home and was absolutely mauled by JK.

  23. #263
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    Kohli has not proven himself in WCs (in an overall way) and knockout games.

    He is nowhere close to Tendulkar in this regard.

    But he is a better player in pressure moments (but he hasn't proven himself in the biggest stage).

    If some are going to value the importance of key games in multi team tournaments where even a non knockout game could be a virtual eliminator...then Kohli has produced 2 absolute GOAT innings in must win situation:

    Hobart 133*
    Dhaka 183

    These are unreal knocks.

    His ability to soak in pressure is proven in T20I where his knocks are more crazier than what even Viv and Tendu achieved in ODIs (I know different formats but talking about delivering under pressure).

    2014 WT20 SF - South Africa chase
    2014 WT20 Finals - SL target set (screwed by over the hill Yuvi)
    2016 WT20 QF - Aus chase (greatest T20 knock EVER without a doubt)
    2016 WT20 SF - WI target set

    Unbelievably clutch. Which shows he has that quality in him.

    But as of now, he has done diddly squat in ODI knockouts (barring a very useful little knock in WC 2011 finals and CT 2013 finals albeit in 20 overs).

    Was hopeless in 2011 QF, 2011 SF, 2015 SF, 2017 CT finals. Has a lot to prove to be rated alongside Viv and Tendu.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  24. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Kohli has not proven himself in WCs (in an overall way) and knockout games.

    He is nowhere close to Tendulkar in this regard.

    But he is a better player in pressure moments (but he hasn't proven himself in the biggest stage).

    If some are going to value the importance of key games in multi team tournaments where even a non knockout game could be a virtual eliminator...then Kohli has produced 2 absolute GOAT innings in must win situation:

    Hobart 133*
    Dhaka 183

    These are unreal knocks.

    His ability to soak in pressure is proven in T20I where his knocks are more crazier than what even Viv and Tendu achieved in ODIs (I know different formats but talking about delivering under pressure).

    2014 WT20 SF - South Africa chase
    2014 WT20 Finals - SL target set (screwed by over the hill Yuvi)
    2016 WT20 QF - Aus chase (greatest T20 knock EVER without a doubt)
    2016 WT20 SF - WI target set

    Unbelievably clutch. Which shows he has that quality in him.

    But as of now, he has done diddly squat in ODI knockouts (barring a very useful little knock in WC 2011 finals and CT 2013 finals albeit in 20 overs).

    Was hopeless in 2011 QF, 2011 SF, 2015 SF, 2017 CT finals. Has a lot to prove to be rated alongside Viv and Tendu.
    Poster once again living up to his name.

    If only others in this thread could realise this. I must say however ability to soak pressure in T20s isn't something I regard to highly because even Samuelsis top notch in that sense but would I rate him a top pressure player over all? Can't remember him doing it in ODIs or tests.

    Anyway Don Kohleone is rightly rated for being ridiculous in bilaterals, however that alone isn't enough to be in Viv league or even Punter, Tendu. He's questionable in high pressure knockouts and/or tough conditions.

  25. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    Poster once again living up to his name.

    If only others in this thread could realise this. I must say however ability to soak pressure in T20s isn't something I regard to highly because even Samuelsis top notch in that sense but would I rate him a top pressure player over all? Can't remember him doing it in ODIs or tests.

    Anyway Don Kohleone is rightly rated for being ridiculous in bilaterals, however that alone isn't enough to be in Viv league or even Punter, Tendu. He's questionable in high pressure knockouts and/or tough conditions.
    Very simple.

    The issue with Samuels is apart from those 2 knocks, he is neither consistent in T20s, ODIs or Tests nor does he have superhuman knocks like Kohli in other games. Even the 2nd WT20 knock, he didn't coordinate the chase perfectly as WI needed 19 runs off 6 balls. 9/10 times such a scenario will result in a loss no matter how good the batsman is and how bad the bowler is but we witnessed something even more incredible as Ben Stokes choked terribly to put 4 length balls ON A TROT in Brathwaite's hitting arc and Braithwaite held his nerve to hit 4 sensational sixes. If not for that, Samuels would be known for 1 crazy WT20 finals knock which is no mean feat either.

    With regards to Kohli, his T20I exploits (not once or twice but FOUR times in 2 tourneys...all in knockouts) show that he COULD withstand pressure and deliver.

    When you add in the fact that:

    1. He scored those Hobart and Dhaka knocks when his team was in a must win situation (there was another crazy knock against SL when the team was 7 down chasing a good total which Kohli and Axar finished but it was a dead rubber bilateral)

    2. He has tons of crazy ODI knocks albeit in bilateral

    3. He soaked up pressure in WC 2011 finals and got out to a brilliant return catch by Dilshan. His score in that finals may show just 30s...but as we have seen SO MANY TIMES in cricket, a team at 30/2 chasing 270+ can easily get reduced for 60/4 thereby losing the match. I thought we would lose the finals but Gambhir-Kohli partnership shifted the momentum and turned the tables around. When Kohli got out, the score was around 100. Still long way to go but out of the crazy danger zone we were in. And he did that in a finals. This may not be worthy innings of a GOAT contender but again it shows POTENTIAL.

    4. He scored in CT 2013 FINALS where he stayed and scored the runs needed to put on a somewhat decent total

    5. He scored against Pak in WC 2015 where there was a huge hype

    It shows his case is WAY different from Samuels who couldn't replicate even 20% of all this otherwise.

    Grant Elliot is one bat who has played 2 super clutch knocks in ODI in knock. In fact, his 2015 SF knock is right up there amongst the best in terms of soaking up the pressure and winning. But that's just a couple of knocks.

    Kris Srikanth top scored in 1983 finals facing a rampaging WI attack.

    We will have such examples in all formats.

    That's why we can't use Samuel's 2 knocks in World T20 to disregard Kohli's T20I credentials or his potential to soak up pressure.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 9th September 2017 at 16:10.


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  26. #266
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    Kohli has failed in important tourneys way too much to say with 100% conviction he will make it and own a WC or two.

    Logic says yes.

    But data is damning.

    But Kohli is the type who when he just switches it on...he switches it ONNNN.

    He is the type who could play gun knocks all the WC games and even do it in finals.

    But will it happen is anybody's guess.


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  27. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Very simple.

    The issue with Samuels is apart from those 2 knocks, he is neither consistent in T20s, ODIs or Tests nor does he have superhuman knocks like Kohli in other games. Even the 2nd WT20 knock, he didn't coordinate the chase perfectly as WI needed 19 runs off 6 balls. 9/10 times such a scenario will result in a loss no matter how good the batsman is and how bad the bowler is but we witnessed something even more incredible as Ben Stokes choked terribly to put 4 length balls ON A TROT in Brathwaite's hitting arc and Braithwaite held his nerve to hit 4 sensational sixes. If not for that, Samuels would be known for 1 crazy WT20 finals knock which is no mean feat either.

    With regards to Kohli, his T20I exploits (not once or twice but FOUR times in 2 tourneys...all in knockouts) show that he COULD withstand pressure and deliver.

    When you add in the fact that:

    1. He scored those Hobart and Dhaka knocks when his team was in a must win situation (there was another crazy knock against SL when the team was 7 down chasing a good total which Kohli and Axar finished but it was a dead rubber bilateral)

    2. He has tons of crazy ODI knocks albeit in bilateral

    3. He soaked up pressure in WC 2011 finals and got out to a brilliant return catch by Dilshan. His score in that finals may show just 30s...but as we have seen SO MANY TIMES in cricket, a team at 30/2 chasing 270+ can easily get reduced for 60/4 thereby losing the match. I thought we would lose the finals but Gambhir-Kohli partnership shifted the momentum and turned the tables around. When Kohli got out, the score was around 100. Still long way to go but out of the crazy danger zone we were in. And he did that in a finals. This may not be worthy innings of a GOAT contender but again it shows POTENTIAL.

    4. He scored in CT 2013 FINALS where he stayed and scored the runs needed to put on a somewhat decent total

    5. He scored against Pak in WC 2015 where there was a huge hype

    It shows his case is WAY different from Samuels who couldn't replicate even 20% of all this otherwise.

    Grant Elliot is one bat who has played 2 super clutch knocks in ODI in knock. In fact, his 2015 SF knock is right up there amongst the best in terms of soaking up the pressure and winning. But that's just a couple of knocks.

    Kris Srikanth top scored in 1983 finals facing a rampaging WI attack.

    We will have such examples in all formats.

    That's why we can't use Samuel's 2 knocks in World T20 to disregard Kohli's T20I credentials or his potential to soak up pressure.
    Fair points but in essence it's all potential talk. If you look at my previous, which was meant to be my final post in this thread I wrote that there's a few steps for Kohli apologists. Long story short, it's the same old 'based on what we've seen, he's too good not to! He's superhuman who guns down 350 with ease, it's his time...'.

    Am not gonna lie, when watching him in bilaterals I agree...I think to myself gee this guy is unstoppable and if he can gun down 350, if he can perform in T20 why wouldn't he do well... but then I see him fail in all important games which then make me think how? Perhaps an anomaly. Problem is it has happened in both the WC semi finals he's played and also the CT final. That's 3 very very important games in which he fails to turn up where the stage isn't set nor the conditions are easy. Then reality hits me, this guy excels on easy pitches when there's less pressure even tho he seems nigh unstoppable. It makes me think this guy is just a lie told so many times that everyone believes it without question. I do think he'll turn up in 2019 WC judging by how he's played but I really wouldn't be surprised if he magically fails in the all important games. Kohli is a very weird case I must say, especially after what happened in the CT final where he was looking unstoppable..if it can happen then, why wouldn't it in the 2019 WC? Oh well, It will be best last chance since he'll be in the peak of his prime...time will tell I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    Fair points but in essence it's all potential talk. If you look at my previous, which was meant to be my final post in this thread I wrote that there's a few steps for Kohli apologists. Long story short, it's the same old 'based on what we've seen, he's too good not to! He's superhuman who guns down 350 with ease, it's his time...'.

    Am not gonna lie, when watching him in bilaterals I agree...I think to myself gee this guy is unstoppable and if he can gun down 350, if he can perform in T20 why wouldn't he do well... but then I see him fail in all important games which then make me think how? Perhaps an anomaly. Problem is it has happened in both the WC semi finals he's played and also the CT final. That's 3 very very important games in which he fails to turn up where the stage isn't set nor the conditions are easy. Then reality hits me, this guy excels on easy pitches when there's less pressure even tho he seems nigh unstoppable. It makes me think this guy is just a lie told so many times that everyone believes it without question. I do think he'll turn up in 2019 WC judging by how he's played but I really wouldn't be surprised if he magically fails in the all important games. Kohli is a very weird case I must say, especially after what happened in the CT final where he was looking unstoppable..if it can happen then, why wouldn't it in the 2019 WC? Oh well, It will be best last chance since he'll be in the peak of his prime...time will tell I guess.
    Many thought 2015 WC was his to own. Didn't happen.
    Then they thought CT 2017 was his to own. Didn't happen. Sure, he killed it in the SF against Bangladesh but then we were well placed in that game and were steamrolling them anyway.

    But I guess in the grand scheme of things, its just 2 series in 2 years even though we feel its like a longggg time. Moreover his failure in 2011 WC (from an overall standpoint) and his lacklustre performance in some tri series finals back in the days all adds up to count against him.

    However the point about his potential is still valid because he has done wayyy too many things under pressure to disregard what he could do in future.

    Its not even about the tough pitches cos look at the high profile games he failed in recent times:

    2015 WC SF - Patta of the highest order
    2017 CT Final - Patta only

    ODI is mostly going to be played in flat tracks and Kohli has proven that he can play good bowlers in ODI as evidenced by the way he handled SA attack in 2010 series (not easy pitches), prime Ajmal (pre ban), prime Johnson in India..pretty much scoring against everyone all over the world in ODIs.

    He even did well against rampaging Amir in extreme swing conditions and won us a game. I remember him scoring 37 against WI quicks who were bowling really well in perth 2015 WC when the pitch spiced up a LOT under lights and he looked light years better than others even though he got out.

    He is a bit of a unique case.

    With him, you never know.

    He may flop in next WC or he could score every game and in finals too.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 9th September 2017 at 17:47.


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    Dunno his stats in CT 2017.

    I think he did well in all the other games. So won't call that tourney a flop.

    Just his way of dismissal in finals may lead to a perception that he failed in that tournament. He had a great tourney otherwise I think.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 9th September 2017 at 17:51.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Dunno his stats in CT 2017.

    I think he did well in all the other games. So won't call that tourney a flop.

    Just his way of dismissal in finals may lead to a perception that he failed in that tournament. He had a great tourney otherwise I think.
    If Kohli is not a clutch player, not sure what should one call people like Amla, Root, etc.

    BTW, welcome back buddy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Many thought 2015 WC was his to own. Didn't happen.
    Then they thought CT 2017 was his to own. Didn't happen. Sure, he killed it in the SF against Bangladesh but then we were well placed in that game and were steamrolling them anyway.

    But I guess in the grand scheme of things, its just 2 series in 2 years even though we feel its like a longggg time. Moreover his failure in 2011 WC (from an overall standpoint) and his lacklustre performance in some tri series finals back in the days all adds up to count against him.

    However the point about his potential is still valid because he has done wayyy too many things under pressure to disregard what he could do in future.

    Its not even about the tough pitches cos look at the high profile games he failed in recent times:

    2015 WC SF - Patta of the highest order
    2017 CT Final - Patta only

    ODI is mostly going to be played in flat tracks and Kohli has proven that he can play good bowlers in ODI as evidenced by the way he handled SA attack in 2010 series (not easy pitches), prime Ajmal (pre ban), prime Johnson in India..pretty much scoring against everyone all over the world in ODIs.

    He even did well against rampaging Amir in extreme swing conditions and won us a game. I remember him scoring 37 against WI quicks who were bowling really well in perth 2015 WC when the pitch spiced up a LOT under lights and he looked light years better than others even though he got out.

    He is a bit of a unique case.

    With him, you never know.

    He may flop in next WC or he could score every game and in finals too.
    He was in the peak of his prime definitely for the CT 2017. Dhawan showed him what a true clutch player was in the final (albeit he too got done). Everyone thinks it's his time, they'll say the same for 2019 WC and if the same will end up happening, you'll see something like Elliot>Inzi as some sort of justification.

    If I'm honest, I don't consider Bilaterals at all important, not even the deciding games. Asia Cup is a bit more pressure filled but no one really cares about it... It's not like the 90s, 00s where you'd have Tri Quad etc series which were highly anticipated. What I'm trying to say is that he hasn't actually done much impressive feats like most claim. He's an undisputed Great player of T20s but that can't translate into ODIs because one can have only a few anomalous results until people notice he's far different in meaningless ODIs compared to the pressure filled prestigious ones.

    When I said tough pitches, I meant conditions. That doesn't mean he's failled in pressure games on tough pitches, he's failed in pressure games and he's also failed on the tougher pitches and/or against tougher bowlers...even in bilaterals. The reason I rate Dhoni so highy is that he's done everything you need from an ATG batsman (Kohli has never scored something like which Dhoni did vs rampant JK) while Kohleone has a lot to be desired. He's just ridiculously good in chasing scores...as opposed to being the all round package.

    I don't believe in using T20s for ODI and ODIs for test and etc as a source of evidence.
    Last edited by Haz95; 9th September 2017 at 18:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akki View Post
    who is n.o 1 batsman according to you ? And why dnt you consider wasim or waqar good bowlers as i will bring their averages as well in some world cup important matches or some matches which will be important when they failed .
    Anyway tell me the names of batsmen who you truely consider top batsman
    I assume you mean in ODIs because there is a long list of names ahead of him in tests.

    The answer is AB de Villiers.

    - Performances against the best teams away? Check.
    - WC performances? Check.
    - Ability to play the moving ball? Check.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 9th September 2017 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    No, there are several more:

    - Zero performances of note in WC KO matches.
    - Inability to play the moving ball in tests and ODIs.
    - Zero centuries in won matches against Australia, England, South Africa away (average in won matches in those countries against the home attack: 20).
    - Untested against Pakistan away.
    A bit of common sense needed here - over a series of matches on such flat UAE and Pak road wickets he wouldn't have issues scoring runs.

    He has a 183 against Pakistan in the Asia cup in more difficult conditions when stakes are high.

    Having said all that if Kohli was Pakistani you wouldn't make these points.

    As a Pakistan fan I would swap all the first team batsman for this guy because we don't have anyone who comes close to his quality of batsmanship.

    Next thing you'll be saying Misbah is a better test batsman than him and bla bla bla.
    Last edited by backfootpunch; 9th September 2017 at 19:03.

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    He's already an ATG in ODIs, to be the GOAT he needs to score in knockout games. If India lose a knockout game which Kohli scores, don't think you can hold that against Kohli. He certainly has the potential to catch Sachin terms of centuries.

    In tests, I think Kohli is unerrated , the only place where he has failed badly is England. He has a chance to correct that next summer. As good as Pujara,Rahane, and Vijay are in tests they have never dominated an overseas tour like Kohli did in Australia. As long as Kohli can dominate at home like he did vs England more and improve his record in England whilst maintaining his current overseas record, he will finish as one of crickets greats.

    I'll stick my neck out and say he will finish as one of crickets great batsmen. Will finish in the Lara/Sachin category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backfootpunch View Post
    A bit of common sense needed here - over a series of matches on such flat UAE and Pak road wickets he wouldn't have issues scoring runs.

    He has a 183 against Pakistan in the Asia cup in more difficult conditions when stakes are high.

    Having said all that if Kohli was Pakistani you wouldn't make these points.

    As a Pakistan fan I would swap all the first team batsman for this guy because we don't have anyone who comes close to his quality of batsmanship.

    Next thing you'll be saying Misbah is a better test batsman than him and bla bla bla.
    The sad thing is every tournament we've played against India ever since Kohli became an established batsman, he has had a hand in bringing us down, save for this CT final where even his harshest critics would've yelled a shout of relief after he was caught - you don't react like that to an overrated batsman, you react like that to a batsman who has the highest average and most 100s in chases.

    2012 Asia cup, 2012 world t20, 2013 CT, 2014 World t20, 2015 WC, 2016 Asia and world t20 cup - all games he either stayed not out or scored 50 or 100.

    Asia cup 2014 is the only other time he did nothing.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    He was in the peak of his prime definitely for the CT 2017. Dhawan showed him what a true clutch player was in the final (albeit he too got done). Everyone thinks it's his time, they'll say the same for 2019 WC and if the same will end up happening, you'll see something like Elliot>Inzi as some sort of justification.

    If I'm honest, I don't consider Bilaterals at all important, not even the deciding games. Asia Cup is a bit more pressure filled but no one really cares about it... It's not like the 90s, 00s where you'd have Tri Quad etc series which were highly anticipated. What I'm trying to say is that he hasn't actually done much impressive feats like most claim. He's an undisputed Great player of T20s but that can't translate into ODIs because one can have only a few anomalous results until people notice he's far different in meaningless ODIs compared to the pressure filled prestigious ones.

    When I said tough pitches, I meant conditions. That doesn't mean he's failled in pressure games on tough pitches, he's failed in pressure games and he's also failed on the tougher pitches and/or against tougher bowlers...even in bilaterals. The reason I rate Dhoni so highy is that he's done everything you need from an ATG batsman (Kohli has never scored something like which Dhoni did vs rampant JK) while Kohleone has a lot to be desired. He's just ridiculously good in chasing scores...as opposed to being the all round package.

    I don't believe in using T20s for ODI and ODIs for test and etc as a source of evidence.
    1. Failure in CT knockout at the peak of his prime doesn't matter if he can rectify his knockout record. Tendulkar entered 1999 WC at the peak of his prime (after the insane 1998 year) and flopped in that tourney. Yet he clicked in 2003 and 2011 WC. Kohli still has 2 WCs left to prove himself.

    2. While his knockout failures does reduce his aura, his career has still some way to go.

    3. T20I performances are not a source of evidence for future success but a reasonable indicator of what could happen.

    4. We don't have to even imagine it all:

    Take his IPL career for example.

    Serial flopper for season after season since inception.

    Used to choke on a full time basis along with his buddies ABD and Gayle in IPL.

    Then in 2016, he started owning every team and every game in the most unbelievable way and dragged his team to the qualifiers. He scored in finals too but chopped one on to his stumps so couldn't finish off the game (Gayle was super clutch that finals...ABD the preceding game).

    5. That's why I said Kohli is a unique case. Defo not a GOAT in ODI. Nowhere close but can't rule out what he can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Odd_One View Post
    If Kohli is not a clutch player, not sure what should one call people like Amla, Root, etc.

    BTW, welcome back buddy!
    Thank you bro.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 9th September 2017 at 21:19.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    1. Failure in CT knockout at the peak of his prime doesn't matter if he can rectify his knockout record. Tendulkar entered 1999 WC at the peak of his prime (after the insane 1998 year) and flopped in that tourney. Yet he clicked in 2003 and 2011 WC. Kohli still has 2 WCs left to prove himself.

    2. While his knockout failures does reduce his aura, his career has still some way to go.

    3. T20I performances are not a source of evidence for future success but a reasonable indicator of what could happen.

    4. We don't have to even imagine it all:

    Take his IPL career for example.

    Serial flopper for season after season since inception.

    Used to choke on a full time basis along with his buddies ABD and Gayle in IPL.

    Then in 2016, he started owning every team and every game in the most unbelievable way and dragged his team to the qualifiers. He scored in finals too but chopped one on to his stumps so couldn't finish off the game (Gayle was super clutch that finals...ABD the preceding game).

    5. That's why I said Kohli is a unique case. Defo not a GOAT in ODI. Nowhere close but can't rule out what he can do.



    Thank you bro.
    Even the 2015 WC Choke vs Aus. That was pretty bad, he was tuk tuking. The CT one was something beyond even his capabilities, he was noticeably flustered and was making false shots even before he got out. Now either he's still average at playing moving ball (yes I think he is, if it's threatening) or he's a choker when it's high stakes, like that game was. Either of the two are major dampners on his career for the GOAT title. It was pretty sad.

    I won't use IPL or T20s as a benchmark as neither are anywhere near as prestigious as an ODI cup, i.e. a CT or WC. Aside from that, what you basically wrote is what I've been hearing for long enough. Like I said before, if something false is said so many times by so many different people, it becomes the truth. I agree that Kohli has evolved into something even more catastrophically mad but that still doesn't dispute the fact that he's not super clutch. I heard the same plenty of times before, don't be surprised if he does indeed fail in the 2019 WC. He is a very peculiar case I must say because he does look so damn convincing in some games, even when it's an impossible situation.

    I admire that you do not blindly rate Kohli like many do in this thread and are aware of his shortcomings. I have nothing against Kohli, I think he's a ridiculously good batsman who's borderlining greatness. With regard to being GOAT or even an elite ATG however like Punter or Sach... I'll remain with what I was saying before, only time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    Even the 2015 WC Choke vs Aus. That was pretty bad, he was tuk tuking. The CT one was something beyond even his capabilities, he was noticeably flustered and was making false shots even before he got out. Now either he's still average at playing moving ball (yes I think he is, if it's threatening) or he's a choker when it's high stakes, like that game was. Either of the two are major dampners on his career for the GOAT title. It was pretty sad.

    I won't use IPL or T20s as a benchmark as neither are anywhere near as prestigious as an ODI cup, i.e. a CT or WC. Aside from that, what you basically wrote is what I've been hearing for long enough. Like I said before, if something false is said so many times by so many different people, it becomes the truth. I agree that Kohli has evolved into something even more catastrophically mad but that still doesn't dispute the fact that he's not super clutch. I heard the same plenty of times before, don't be surprised if he does indeed fail in the 2019 WC. He is a very peculiar case I must say because he does look so damn convincing in some games, even when it's an impossible situation.

    I admire that you do not blindly rate Kohli like many do in this thread and are aware of his shortcomings. I have nothing against Kohli, I think he's a ridiculously good batsman who's borderlining greatness. With regard to being GOAT or even an elite ATG however like Punter or Sach... I'll remain with what I was saying before, only time will tell.
    Sachin is even bigger choker than Kohli

    Kohli over Sachin to perform under pressure.

    T20s may not be important in your views but Millions if not Billion fans in India do take it seriously. Also dont think Kohli cares if bunch of fans on forum think of him as ATG or not. Frankly speaking, he only cares to see India win one way or the other.
    These ATG tags are meaningless if overall team isnt doing well.

    He is not even 30 and he scored as many centuries as punter did in his entire career. But punter had overall better record considering his incredible century against India in WC final. But if you ask me Id take Kohli over Punter anyday and everyday of the week. Punter had weakness against spin which is why he has tailenderish average in India. Kohli too have weakness but im sure even he knows it and must be working on it.

    Anyways, this debate is never gonna end. Neutrals will always hang on to WC performance and ignore performance in bilaterals and T20s. I just care India perform as a team in WC 2019 even if it means Kohli gets out on 0 in each of the innings. Individual milestone is pointless and Im sure Kohli knows that.

  39. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    Even the 2015 WC Choke vs Aus. That was pretty bad, he was tuk tuking. The CT one was something beyond even his capabilities, he was noticeably flustered and was making false shots even before he got out. Now either he's still average at playing moving ball (yes I think he is, if it's threatening) or he's a choker when it's high stakes, like that game was. Either of the two are major dampners on his career for the GOAT title. It was pretty sad.

    I won't use IPL or T20s as a benchmark as neither are anywhere near as prestigious as an ODI cup, i.e. a CT or WC. Aside from that, what you basically wrote is what I've been hearing for long enough. Like I said before, if something false is said so many times by so many different people, it becomes the truth. I agree that Kohli has evolved into something even more catastrophically mad but that still doesn't dispute the fact that he's not super clutch. I heard the same plenty of times before, don't be surprised if he does indeed fail in the 2019 WC. He is a very peculiar case I must say because he does look so damn convincing in some games, even when it's an impossible situation.

    I admire that you do not blindly rate Kohli like many do in this thread and are aware of his shortcomings. I have nothing against Kohli, I think he's a ridiculously good batsman who's borderlining greatness. With regard to being GOAT or even an elite ATG however like Punter or Sach... I'll remain with what I was saying before, only time will tell.
    With all due respects, I feel you have made up your mind which prevents you from seeing what I am trying to point out ultimately.

    T20 or IPL are not evidence/bechmark for ODI success. They are merely indicators of pressure soaking ability. They are not the main argument. Just supporting argument whose validity is justified considering the fact that Kohli does so well in ODIs and has performed in must-win games too.

    For years, I struggled with understanding the concept of what a pressure player really means cos stats can be misleading. It was after a long time and looking into a lot of games closely, I realized being a pressure player means being great at pressure moments (which is a subset of pressure games). Kohli is that player who is great at pressure moments as he has shown many times in ODI and T20I. He has that quality. That's why he is considered clutch even though he doesn't have the stats in knockout games while ABD (whom I rate highly) is considered a choker even though he has the stats (why? cos ABD is weak in pressure moments).

    Whether Kohli will deliver or not...time will tell.

    Considering the amount of games he still has...odds are good.

    But as you rightly said, you never know cos he has flattered to deceive a lot of times (2011 WC, 2015 WC, 2017 CT).

    But then, with Kohli....you never know.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 9th September 2017 at 21:51.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Sachin is even bigger choker than Kohli

    Kohli over Sachin to perform under pressure.

    T20s may not be important in your views but Millions if not Billion fans in India do take it seriously. Also dont think Kohli cares if bunch of fans on forum think of him as ATG or not. Frankly speaking, he only cares to see India win one way or the other.
    These ATG tags are meaningless if overall team isnt doing well.

    He is not even 30 and he scored as many centuries as punter did in his entire career. But punter had overall better record considering his incredible century against India in WC final. But if you ask me Id take Kohli over Punter anyday and everyday of the week. Punter had weakness against spin which is why he has tailenderish average in India. Kohli too have weakness but im sure even he knows it and must be working on it.

    Anyways, this debate is never gonna end. Neutrals will always hang on to WC performance and ignore performance in bilaterals and T20s. I just care India perform as a team in WC 2019 even if it means Kohli gets out on 0 in each of the innings. Individual milestone is pointless and Im sure Kohli knows that.
    I'm sorry but no matter how big IPL gets or whatnot but T20s are really nowhere near ODIs. I would just like to notify you that Windies has 2 WCs in T20s but no one remembers. It's unfortunate but that's how it is because T20s is entertainment for your average fan who can't watch more than 2 hours of a sport.

    Sachin himself wasn't amazing in WCs, he was scratchy and not as convincing but he at least turned up when it was required. I rate Sachin as an elite Batsman due to his 90s heroics when bowling was arguably at its best while batting was hardest. That Sachin was twice the batsman today's Kohli is, I can confidently say that. The only thing which makes Kohli insane is his chasing ability which is probably the best ever. That alone does not make a great ODI batsman though.
    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    But as you rightly said, you never know cos he has flattered to deceive a lot of times (2011 WC, 2015 WC, 2017 CT).
    I do feel like we are basically reiterating the same thing again and again. I'm just gonna leave it at the highlighted part. While Kohli is insane, he's not much better than he was 3/4 years ago and I saw where that got him when it mattered.

    In fact when it comes to Kohli vs AB, I would actually pick AB. Here's why; I saw in the WC when AB turned up in a pressure semi final game in which he choked half way for which he ruined it for himself. However him turning up automatically gave him an advantage. In the same tournament with same amout of pressure, I saw Kohli fail to turn up completely with a huge choke. The CT final choke of Kohli was probably his worst innings ever and it really ruined his name for me because he was so visibly flustered. I think the clutch player tag of Kohli is made from meaningless bilaterals and less pressured T20s. I don't think it's as good as people make it. You're probably gonna disagree with me so we might as well agree to disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post
    I'm sorry but no matter how big IPL gets or whatnot but T20s are really nowhere near ODIs. I would just like to notify you that Windies has 2 WCs in T20s but no one remembers. It's unfortunate but that's how it is because T20s is entertainment for your average fan who can't watch more than 2 hours of a sport.

    Sachin himself wasn't amazing in WCs, he was scratchy and not as convincing but he at least turned up when it was required. I rate Sachin as an elite Batsman due to his 90s heroics when bowling was arguably at its best while batting was hardest. That Sachin was twice the batsman today's Kohli is, I can confidently say that. The only thing which makes Kohli insane is his chasing ability which is probably the best ever. That alone does not make a great ODI batsman though.

    I do feel like we are basically reiterating the same thing again and again. I'm just gonna leave it at the highlighted part. While Kohli is insane, he's not much better than he was 3/4 years ago and I saw where that got him when it mattered.

    In fact when it comes to Kohli vs AB, I would actually pick AB. Here's why; I saw in the WC when AB turned up in a pressure semi final game in which he choked half way for which he ruined it for himself. However him turning up automatically gave him an advantage. In the same tournament with same amout of pressure, I saw Kohli fail to turn up completely with a huge choke. The CT final choke of Kohli was probably his worst innings ever and it really ruined his name for me because he was so visibly flustered. I think the clutch player tag of Kohli is made from meaningless bilaterals and less pressured T20s. I don't think it's as good as people make it. You're probably gonna disagree with me so we might as well agree to disagree.
    Sachin never showed up when team needed the most. Kohli will go down as Indias greateat batsman ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haz95 View Post

    In fact when it comes to Kohli vs AB, I would actually pick AB. Here's why; I saw in the WC when AB turned up in a pressure semi final game in which he choked half way for which he ruined it for himself. However him turning up automatically gave him an advantage. In the same tournament with same amout of pressure, I saw Kohli fail to turn up completely with a huge choke. The CT final choke of Kohli was probably his worst innings ever and it really ruined his name for me because he was so visibly flustered. I think the clutch player tag of Kohli is made from meaningless bilaterals and less pressured T20s. I don't think it's as good as people make it. You're probably gonna disagree with me so we might as well agree to disagree.
    You're forgetting the virtual QF in 2017 CT.

    IND vs SA.

    AB scored 16. Kohli scored 76 (while chasing).


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    Quote Originally Posted by backfootpunch View Post
    A bit of common sense needed here - over a series of matches on such flat UAE and Pak road wickets he wouldn't have issues scoring runs.

    He has a 183 against Pakistan in the Asia cup in more difficult conditions when stakes are high.

    Having said all that if Kohli was Pakistani you wouldn't make these points.

    As a Pakistan fan I would swap all the first team batsman for this guy because we don't have anyone who comes close to his quality of batsmanship.

    Next thing you'll be saying Misbah is a better test batsman than him and bla bla bla.
    Kohli is better than any current Pakistani batsman. Who would deny that? I certainly don't and no, Misbah was not a better test batsman than him either. Kohli is a great ODI batsman and a very good test bat, I have no problem in admitting that. Any team would love to have a batsman like him, that is also true.

    My criticism of Kohli is much more rational and seeing how more and more people are raising the same points, I'm not his only critic. He's scored zero match-winning hundreds against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away and his average in won matches against those countries is 20. Add to that his consistent choking and he's got his weaknesses like any other great ODI batsman.

    When Ajmal, Hafeez, Afridi, Gul and Junaid/Irfan were all bowling together during 2011-2013, the UAE was a tough place for batsmen. Scores of 300 were rare. We didn't win much but that was down to shoddy batting.

  44. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    And which of these quotes state that I don't rate performances in multi team tournaments? I've been shouting from the rooftops that Kohli's average drops from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s and 20s as the stakes rise, which is true. None of those quotes contradict my point. I've pointed out his multi team tournament records (Non WC/CT) as much as I've pointed out his Knockout records, but obviously you wouldn't quote it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

    I never said that Kohli hasn't played a single good/great ODI innings in his life. It's that his overall records in those circumstances are a far cry from the expected records of someone being labelled as an all time great as I explained in post 246.
    All Iam saying is that Waqar is in a similar situation as Kohli ... do you agree or disagree ? And yes from those quotes you imply that Kohli's runs earlier in the tournament do not count at all.

    Example:

    Useless record. Got owned in the ODIs that mattered most - The 2015 WC Semi and the CT Final.. batted like a tailender in both. Proper bilateral bully lol.
    Averages 23 in 8 ODI Tournament Finals and 31 in Eliminators with no hundreds.

    That doesn't sound like you are a fan of runs scored other than in Knock outs. But somehow magically the same doesn't apply to Waqar for some strange reason.

    Waqar in Eliminators:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling

    Waqar Overal in Multi-Nation tournaments where he is closer to Venkatesh Prasad:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    Furthermore if we consider that in Worldcups Waqar's record is not good we come to a conclusion that

    Waqar in World cups excluding minnows.
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...2;type=bowling


    Venkatesh Prasad is just as good a bowler ( if not better) than Waqar and that he has a similarly useless overall record like Kohli's overall record in your opinion ). But wait ... this is where his record in preliminary matches in tournaments like the great Khaleej Times trophy where Pakistan played against the mighty Zimbabwe are good enough for you


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post

    My criticism of Kohli is much more rational and seeing how more and more people are raising the same points, I'm not his only critic. He's scored zero match-winning hundreds against Australia, England, South Africa or Pakistan away and his average in won matches against those countries is 20. Add to that his consistent choking and he's got his weaknesses like any other great ODI batsman.
    This point has been refuted countless times.

    1) IND bowlers capitulated in AUS (He averaged 56+)
    2) Averaged 48 in 2011 vs SA and only got to bat twice in his latest visit
    3) No sample size vs PAK (nor was PAK a good ODI side in recent years to merit a mention)

    Only AWAY vs England is problematic and applicable.

    There's nothing wrong with criticizing Kohli but it should be done with context.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Sachin never showed up when team needed the most. Kohli will go down as Indias greateat batsman ever.
    Yes sachin never showed up like in qf, semi final of world cups isn't it? What has kohli done un wc or icc odi tournaments that is a patch on sachin.

    I m a fan of virat but he failed spectacularly in the chances he got to make a difference in wc semi and ct 2017 final.

    If u want check sachins average in finals and come back. Kohli may be better in bilaterals but in wc and ct tournaments he failed spectacularly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Again refering to that WC against Pakistan,

    It was Sachin's knock that gave Dravid lot of room to play out some dot balls and get set. Imagine if say when Dravid arrived at crease and India needed 8 runs an over for last 12-13 overs, would you really think Dravid was the man?
    Like i mentioned, Dravid was a good batsman to play a support role, never in his career he managed to grab the game by the neck and take it out of the reach from opponent. R Sharma have managed to do that on multiple ocassions.
    The only reason why we have this debate on Dravid is how you rate him so highly whereas you always down play R Sharma without any logic or stats. Your reasoning is 'soft runs' LOL. Dravid is the one who always scored so called soft runs when everyone else around him had to lay the foundation. Im glad that BCCI dumped him post 2007 WC debacle. Now i hope they dump Dravid 2.0( Rahane) for good.
    Lets just say my understanding of an Impact innings and soft runs is very different from yours .

    You are asking me why a 37 year old player after having scored 10K runs got dropped ? Same reason why Srinath replaced Kapil ? same reason why Pant will most likely replace Dhoni ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    Lets just say my understanding of an Impact innings and soft runs is very different from yours .

    You are asking me why a 37 year old player after having scored 10K runs got dropped ? Same reason why Srinath replaced Kapil ? same reason why Pant will most likely replace Dhoni ?
    It's nice to see you get a taste of your own medicine, just like you nitpick and make silly posts about Sachin, the same way candiang00se is ranting about your favorite player dravid, lol this is fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    Lets just say my understanding of an Impact innings and soft runs is very different from yours .

    You are asking me why a 37 year old player after having scored 10K runs got dropped ? Same reason why Srinath replaced Kapil ? same reason why Pant will most likely replace Dhoni ?
    Dravid was 35 at that point and a regular in the ODI side.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    Lets just say my understanding of an Impact innings and soft runs is very different from yours .

    You are asking me why a 37 year old player after having scored 10K runs got dropped ? Same reason why Srinath replaced Kapil ? same reason why Pant will most likely replace Dhoni ?
    He was extremely lucky to be played for such long. Had India found player like Raina in 2004 era, he would've replaced Dravid in LOIs.

    Yes your understanding is pretty biased when it comes to LOIs. You label someone who actually have the ability to win games on his own as 'soft runs' and while someone who genuiely struggled to win matches on his own as 'Impact player'. Never got the logic behind it. What has 10K runs got anything to do with how useless he was as player on its own.

    Kapil, Srinath and Dhoni do have something in common. During their peak days they were match winners. Could win matches on their own. Dravid on the other hand would tuk tuk to win matches when someone else would've done the hard work.

    Dravid's 10K has to be most soft runs scored by any player in LOIs.

  51. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToeCrusher2 View Post
    It's nice to see you get a taste of your own medicine, just like you nitpick and make silly posts about Sachin, the same way candiang00se is ranting about your favorite player dravid, lol this is fun
    Who told you Dravid is my fav player ? I dont worship any player , never will .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Dravid was 35 at that point and a regular in the ODI side.

    Ok , so was every other player till he gets dropped .


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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    He was extremely lucky to be played for such long. Had India found player like Raina in 2004 era, he would've replaced Dravid in LOIs.

    Yes your understanding is pretty biased when it comes to LOIs. You label someone who actually have the ability to win games on his own as 'soft runs' and while someone who genuiely struggled to win matches on his own as 'Impact player'. Never got the logic behind it. What has 10K runs got anything to do with how useless he was as player on its own.

    Kapil, Srinath and Dhoni do have something in common. During their peak days they were match winners. Could win matches on their own. Dravid on the other hand would tuk tuk to win matches when someone else would've done the hard work.

    Dravid's 10K has to be most soft runs scored by any player in LOIs.

    I may be biased against Rohit and that from being one of his biggest fans few years back , but have valid reasons for it . I have explained this multiple times on different threads/forums , it almost feels like I have been only talking about this guy for past few months .

    The thing I hate about any player , is when you start playing for your personal milestone , your stats and put your self above the team .

    Dravid wasnt as gifted as Rohit , but he gave his best and played a very important roles albeit supporting ones but he did what was best for the team , thats why I will take Dravid over Rohit any day .

    Dravid's strike rate was similar to likes of Ganguly and Inzamam which was pretty normal .

    lol at Rohits ability to win games , you mean scoring a 200 on a 350 par score pitch ? We have lost 50% of the matches Rohit has scored a 100 and his fans claim hes a superman once his set , while if you check the stats the Indian teams win ratio does not change when he score a 0 or a 100 . That in an era when opening is the easiest role in the game .
    if you disagree , Can list some of the matches India would have certainly lost without his contribution ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    I may be biased against Rohit and that from being one of his biggest fans few years back , but have valid reasons for it . I have explained this multiple times on different threads/forums , it almost feels like I have been only talking about this guy for past few months .

    The thing I hate about any player , is when you start playing for your personal milestone , your stats and put your self above the team .

    Dravid wasnt as gifted as Rohit , but he gave his best and played a very important roles albeit supporting ones but he did what was best for the team , thats why I will take Dravid over Rohit any day .

    Dravid's strike rate was similar to likes of Ganguly and Inzamam which was pretty normal .

    lol at Rohits ability to win games , you mean scoring a 200 on a 350 par score pitch ? We have lost 50% of the matches Rohit has scored a 100 and his fans claim hes a superman once his set , while if you check the stats the Indian teams win ratio does not change when he score a 0 or a 100 . That in an era when opening is the easiest role in the game .
    if you disagree , Can list some of the matches India would have certainly lost without his contribution ?
    Again you're being hypocrite. On one hand you're justifying Dravid's slow approach in ODIs stating it was acceptable in that era while you're bashing Rohit for having strikerate of around 90. How many openers in today's world have strikerate of 90? Please dont list the name of hacks. Rohit may not be the best but he does the job when he gets going. Now coming to your point where you easily shrugged off 200 like as if we see batsmen been scoring 200s alot these days. In entire history just 5 batsmen have managed to do that. So according to you scoring 200 on 350 pitch seems norm, then please tell me why have other teams batsmen have not been able to score 200s. Now you're bashing Rohit even when he scores. We all know how crappy Indian bowlers are and more often than not will lose match from winning position. So, if Rohit score a century even at strike rate of 90 and bowlers get hammered and lose match, guess what who you gonna blame? Rohit 'soft runs' Sharma.
    Asian fans are really something. If a bowler takes 5 wickets and give away 65-70 runs and team's best batsman score 0(1) are you gonna be blaming the batsman or the bowler for the defeat? When was the last time a bowler who took 4fer or 5fer was blamed for defeat? Why the double standard?
    just an fyi, im no Rohit fan matter fact Im not a fan of any player. I only want to see my team does well.
    I'll certainly list the matches where he played the best innings. Winning a match you also need bowlers to do their job.
    1) 264

    2) Century against AUS in Melbourne on tough pitch where every other batsmen struggled. We did lost the match due to our crappy bowlers we are blessed with. Without his century bowlers would've lost that match inside 20 overs.

    3) 200 against Australia.

    4) Century against BD in QF of WC 2015.

    These are few innings I could think top of my head. One thing i agree with you is that Rohit is immensly talented. He is also the laziest player i have ever seen. If he had even 50% of the work ethics of Kohli, he may very well would've been better than Kohli. But sadly, he just too laid back and lazy. He is Akmal of India. Despite his laziness, he is still key member of Indian team and to label his effort as useless just make absolute no sense.
    Since you do not consider Rohit, please enlighten us who you'd rather have in team that would do much better job than him?

  55. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    All Iam saying is that Waqar is in a similar situation as Kohli ... do you agree or disagree ? And yes from those quotes you imply that Kohli's runs earlier in the tournament do not count at all.

    Example:






    That doesn't sound like you are a fan of runs scored other than in Knock outs. But somehow magically the same doesn't apply to Waqar for some strange reason.

    Waqar in Eliminators:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling

    Waqar Overal in Multi-Nation tournaments where he is closer to Venkatesh Prasad:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    Furthermore if we consider that in Worldcups Waqar's record is not good we come to a conclusion that

    Waqar in World cups excluding minnows.
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...2;type=bowling


    Venkatesh Prasad is just as good a bowler ( if not better) than Waqar and that he has a similarly useless overall record like Kohli's overall record in your opinion ). But wait ... this is where his record in preliminary matches in tournaments like the great Khaleej Times trophy where Pakistan played against the mighty Zimbabwe are good enough for you

    The following is a post I made on Aug 22, much before this thread was even created, explaining my preference for multi team tournaments to bilaterals:

    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    In an era of tons of pointless bilateral ODIs, what really sets batsmen apart are their performances in multi team tournaments where every match right until the final has much more meaning than the bilaterals with the NRR in the equation as well.

    Virat Kohli's stats in tournaments of 3 teams or more against the Top 6 teams:



    Meanwhile, Steven Smith, a batsman considered as a vastly inferior ODI batsman to Kohli has these performances in that regard:



    It's hilarious really. Kohli is nowhere even Smith as an ODI batsman on the basis of performances in matches that actually matter. Kohli can score hundreds upon hundreds and average 300 in all of these useless bilaterals but as soon as the pressure of a tournament is on, the golden boy CHOKES. Not even one of the Top 5 ODI batsmen of this generation. The hype is just so so unwarranted.
    So, it isn't that I've been saying that Knockouts are the be all and end all, stop with the assumptions already.

    And I just don't get the Waqar comparison at all tbh. In the first eliminator table you posted, he averages 27. In the second he averages 22 with 230 wickets (better than his career average) and in the third (WC one) he averages 25, comparatively Kohli's averages fall from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s and 20s while applying the same criteria. If Waqar averaged 30+ in any of those circumstances then you'd have a point.. but Waqar is still in the 22-27 range in all these statistics, I don't know why you even bring Prasad into this lol he isn't even on the second table, averages 33 as compared to Waqar's 25 in the third table and averages more than Waqar in the first table as well. You're just throwing mud on the wall at this point hoping it sticks. There is no comparison between Kohli and Waqar whatsover.

  56. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    The following is a post I made on Aug 22, much before this thread was even created, explaining my preference for multi team tournaments to bilaterals:
    Your preference does not translate to fact ... have you explained why they have vanished if they were sooo popular and exciting. You have not. I just realized that the latest Tri-Series that was played was between NZ-BD-IRL. You want me to believe that series was faaar more competitive than any Bilateral series ?

    If you want to be taken seriously maybe you want to tell us how Khaleej Times tournament was so much more competitive than any of the current Bilaterals and the stats in such pointless ODI's . Have you watched the recent Ind vs Eng/NZ ODI series ? If not I suggest you watch the upcoming Ind-vs-Aus series and tell us how it is all sooo easy and that nobody cares and that its all pointless.

    As for the NRR situation ... well today we have the ICC Rankings which are far more important than NRR ( Which BTW will not always be relevant in most matches because points are more important ) . Whereas even after winning the first 3 matches ( and the series ) India would have lost points had they lost the remaining two matches to SL.

    I will agree that World Cups and other ICC Tournaments (Including the T20s whether you like it or not) are far greater in importance than anything else but to pretend that tri-series are more important than Bilaterals is not true.


    So, it isn't that I've been saying that Knockouts are the be all and end all, stop with the assumptions already.

    And I just don't get the Waqar comparison at all tbh. In the first eliminator table you posted, he averages 27. In the second he averages 22 with 230 wickets (better than his career average) and in the third (WC one) he averages 25, comparatively Kohli's averages fall from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s and 20s while applying the same criteria. If Waqar averaged 30+ in any of those circumstances then you'd have a point.. but Waqar is still in the 22-27 range in all these statistics, I don't know why you even bring Prasad into this lol he isn't even on the second table, averages 33 as compared to Waqar's 25 in the third table and averages more than Waqar in the first table as well. You're just throwing mud on the wall at this point hoping it sticks. There is no comparison between Kohli and Waqar whatsover.
    Look at all the bowlers who have far better stats than Waqar in those lists. This is exactly the point of cherry picked stats to suit your agenda. If I want to pull down Waqar I have enough ammunition to do so. Moreover Waqar failed in the two most important matches of his career 96 QF and 2003 Ind-vs-Pak which was a must win match for Pak(No stat will tell you that BTW). None of the other matches even comes closer in importance during Waqar's career. So according to your simplistic formula he would be a big failure.

    But anyone who watched Waqar bowl would laugh at such analysis. Understand ?

    If not then look at the stats of the likes of Zack, Nehra, Srinath, Malinga, Razzaq ... they are woeful but nobody in their right mind would pick Bracken over these bowlers in ODI's just because Bracken has God like stats in Multi-Nation KO matches. Doesn't work that way.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Your preference does not translate to fact ... have you explained why they have vanished if they were sooo popular and exciting. You have not. I just realized that the latest Tri-Series that was played was between NZ-BD-IRL. You want me to believe that series was faaar more competitive than any Bilateral series ?

    If you want to be taken seriously maybe you want to tell us how Khaleej Times tournament was so much more competitive than any of the current Bilaterals and the stats in such pointless ODI's . Have you watched the recent Ind vs Eng/NZ ODI series ? If not I suggest you watch the upcoming Ind-vs-Aus series and tell us how it is all sooo easy and that nobody cares and that its all pointless.

    As for the NRR situation ... well today we have the ICC Rankings which are far more important than NRR ( Which BTW will not always be relevant in most matches because points are more important ) . Whereas even after winning the first 3 matches ( and the series ) India would have lost points had they lost the remaining two matches to SL.

    I will agree that World Cups and other ICC Tournaments (Including the T20s whether you like it or not) are far greater in importance than anything else but to pretend that tri-series are more important than Bilaterals is not true.




    Look at all the bowlers who have far better stats than Waqar in those lists. This is exactly the point of cherry picked stats to suit your agenda. If I want to pull down Waqar I have enough ammunition to do so. Moreover Waqar failed in the two most important matches of his career 96 QF and 2003 Ind-vs-Pak which was a must win match for Pak(No stat will tell you that BTW). None of the other matches even comes closer in importance during Waqar's career. So according to your simplistic formula he would be a big failure.

    But anyone who watched Waqar bowl would laugh at such analysis. Understand ?

    If not then look at the stats of the likes of Zack, Nehra, Srinath, Malinga, Razzaq ... they are woeful but nobody in their right mind would pick Bracken over these bowlers in ODI's just because Bracken has God like stats in Multi-Nation KO matches. Doesn't work that way.
    I haven't explained why tri-series are better than bilaterals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Well firstly the matches are different because immediately the margin of defeat comes into play and contributes to the NRR. Teams are compelled towards more proactive play. That in itself elevates it from the level of a bilateral. Plus, as I said, a tournament isn't over right until the last ball of the final is bowled, whereas like the recently concluded India-SL series, the 4th and 5th matches were redundant. I'll take a 3 team tournament over a bilateral any day. Much more context to every match and a bigger stage in the form of a final(s) to separate the wheat from the chaff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Tri Series would still be much more compelling since there would be an added dynamic of Aus-SL as well. Remember the 2011-12 Tri Series in Aus? One of the best ODI series of this decade simply because of the fact that every game along with the margins of victory/defeat mattered right until the last moment. Australia were getting the better of India, India were getting the better of SL and SL were getting the better of Aus. That's compelling cricket. Teams were forced to play the best cricket they could to keep their NRR healthy, that's something you just don't see in bilaterals, there is a completely different skill to multi team series than to bilaterals, there is simply no comparison.
    This was before you started the Waqar-Prasad comparison fiasco to deviate from the point. I've explained it at length why Tri series hold much more relevance, are much more intriguing and force teams to play much better cricket than the bilaterals. It's not just about the NRR. People want to see compelling cricket first. Rating chart comes later. I ask you again. You have two options: One of seeing two bilateral series in Ind-SL and Ind-Aus or a tri series between Ind-SL-Aus, what would you prefer to see.. and not please don't bring the "well yeah depends on what type of games happen". NO. I want to know which scenario would you prefer to watch beforehand if you had a choice. That's the entire point which you're sidestepping in the entire argument.

    The reason why Tri Series don't happen has got nothing to do with cricketing reasons. It has more to do with the scheduling, logistics and the monetary reasons. Bring me a cricketing point why they're not happening and I'll entertain that.

    Again, on the Waqar point, Waqar averages no more than 27 in any of the tables you posted, whereas Kohli's averages dip to the 30s and 20s. If you can't realise the difference there than I can't do anything. Waqar was not in any circumstance a failure like Kohli has been in these scenarios. Sure, Waqar failed in important games too, but in totality his stats are more than respectable and in some instances his average is better than his over ODI average. If Kohli was even averaging 40+ in all the scenarios then there would be no argument, but he doesn't.. he troughs into the 30s and 20s which is an obvious and staggering discrepancy when you consider he averages close to 60 in bilaterals.
    Last edited by Proactive_; 10th September 2017 at 20:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    I haven't explained why tri-series are better than bilaterals?





    This was before you started the Waqar-Prasad comparison fiasco to deviate from the point. I've explained it at length why Tri series hold much more relevance, are much more intriguing and force teams to play much better cricket than the bilaterals. It's not just about the NRR. People want to see compelling cricket first. Rating chart comes later. I ask you again. You have two options: One of seeing two bilateral series in Ind-SL and Ind-Aus or a tri series between Ind-SL-Aus, what would you prefer to see.. and not please don't bring the "well yeah depends on what type of games happen". NO. I want to know which scenario would you prefer to watch beforehand if you had a choice. That's the entire point which you're sidestepping in the entire argument.

    The reason why Tri Series don't happen has got nothing to do with cricketing reasons. It has more to do with the scheduling, logistics and the monetary reasons. Bring me a cricketing point why they're not happening and I'll entertain that.
    I don't really have a preference between Bilaterals and Tri-Series. Both can be as entertaining and memorable or as boring and forgettable as any ODI Cricket ever played. I present to you NZ-IRL-BD Triseries recently as evidence ... if you think that it was any more challenging than the BD-NZ Bilateral ODIs then you are lying.


    Again, on the Waqar point, Waqar averages no more than 27 in any of the tables you posted, whereas Kohli's averages dip to the 30s and 20s. If you can't realise the difference there than I can't do anything. Waqar was not in any circumstance a failure like Kohli has been in these scenarios. Sure, Waqar failed in important games too, but in totality his stats are more than respectable and in some instances his average is better than his over ODI average. If Kohli was even averaging 40+ in all the scenarios then there would be no argument, but he doesn't.. he troughs into the 30s and 20s which is an obvious and staggering discrepancy when you consider he averages close to 60 in bilaterals.
    An avg of 27 is nothing great at all in KO matches. Bracken is the real deal - absolute God like stats.

    Its very simple ... Bracken beats Waqar (By a verry long margin) in all thre categories that you harp about : WorldCups , Multi-Nation Preliminary and KO matches (links below). Therefore is Bracken a better bowler than Waqar. A simple yes or no will do. If you still do not consider Bracken as a better bowler than Waqar then elaborate ( more like you will look for unique excuses ):

    Preliminary Matches In Multi-Nation ODI's:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    KO Matches In Multi-Nation ODI's:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    WordCups:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...2;type=bowling


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  59. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    I don't really have a preference between Bilaterals and Tri-Series. Both can be as entertaining and memorable or as boring and forgettable as any ODI Cricket ever played. I present to you NZ-IRL-BD Triseries recently as evidence ... if you think that it was any more challenging than the BD-NZ Bilateral ODIs then you are lying.




    An avg of 27 is nothing great at all in KO matches. Bracken is the real deal - absolute God like stats.

    Its very simple ... Bracken beats Waqar (By a verry long margin) in all thre categories that you harp about : WorldCups , Multi-Nation Preliminary and KO matches (links below). Therefore is Bracken a better bowler than Waqar. A simple yes or no will do. If you still do not consider Bracken as a better bowler than Waqar then elaborate ( more like you will look for unique excuses ):

    Preliminary Matches In Multi-Nation ODI's:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    KO Matches In Multi-Nation ODI's:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=bowling


    WordCups:
    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...2;type=bowling
    No, I'll be consistent. These stats along with the fact that Bracken being a former No.1 ODI bowler surely hold him in very good stead. The only factor he lacks in is the volume of wickets in which regard the comparison of wickets stands like:

    Waqar Vs Bracken:

    236 wickets at 22.70 vs 78 wickets at 20.00 (Huge difference in wickets here)
    43 wickets at 27.48 vs 27 wickets at 15.62 (This is a clear victory for Bracken here, I have no problem admitting)
    14 wickets at 25.14 vs 12 wickets at 16.08 (I agree again, clear victory for Bracken).

    I have no problem admitting that I would have rated Bracken as the better ODI bowler if he had like just 50-60 wickets more in the first scenario at a similar average, a difference of 160 wickets is just way too vast to ignore, the scenario in WCs is evident though so no argument there.

    Now, the ball is in your court. Would you agree that based on these parameters Kohli's performances have been significantly underwhelming as compared to his otherwise near 60 average bilateral standards?

    As for your Tri series point, again.. you're basing this point on the assumption that one team out of the three has to be hugely outclassed from the get go. This isn't the case on most occasions, see the traditional Oz Tri Series amongst other multi team tournaments that took place in the 90s which were hugely competitive and brought the best out of the teams in every game right until the final.

  60. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    No, I'll be consistent. These stats along with the fact that Bracken being a former No.1 ODI bowler surely hold him in very good stead. The only factor he lacks in is the volume of wickets in which regard the comparison of wickets stands like:

    Waqar Vs Bracken:

    236 wickets at 22.70 vs 78 wickets at 20.00 (Huge difference in wickets here)
    43 wickets at 27.48 vs 27 wickets at 15.62 (This is a clear victory for Bracken here, I have no problem admitting)
    14 wickets at 25.14 vs 12 wickets at 16.08 (I agree again, clear victory for Bracken).

    I have no problem admitting that I would have rated Bracken as the better ODI bowler if he had like just 50-60 wickets more in the first scenario at a similar average, a difference of 160 wickets is just way too vast to ignore, the scenario in WCs is evident though so no argument there.

    Now, the ball is in your court. Would you agree that based on these parameters Kohli's performances have been significantly underwhelming as compared to his otherwise near 60 average bilateral standards?

    As for your Tri series point, again.. you're basing this point on the assumption that one team out of the three has to be hugely outclassed from the get go. This isn't the case on most occasions, see the traditional Oz Tri Series amongst other multi team tournaments that took place in the 90s which were hugely competitive and brought the best out of the teams in every game right until the final.
    Consistent ehh ? lets see ... didnt you declare Kohli as a failure based on a grand total of 5 inngs in Eng + NZ ? But now suddenly 45 matches are not good enough sample size for Bracken ?

    Anyhow here is Virat Kohli in Preliminary matches that you are now using to justify Waqar:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=batting

    What will be the excuse now?


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  61. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Consistent ehh ? lets see ... didnt you declare Kohli as a failure based on a grand total of 5 inngs in Eng + NZ ? But now suddenly 45 matches are not good enough sample size for Bracken ?

    Anyhow here is Virat Kohli in Preliminary matches that you are now using to justify Waqar:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...5;type=batting

    What will be the excuse now?
    Eh, I agree that Bracken would have been better if the difference in wickets wasn't so startling.. 236 wickets vs 78 wickets there just isn't a comparison.


    It's beyond any evidence at this point. Kohli's average take a downfall the moment the stakes change from a bilateral series to a multi nation series, why is it so hard to accept for you? It's like beating a dead horse at this point. I know you will never address the point of Kohli's averaged dipping from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s and 20s in the same criteria while trying to slander a bowler so averages no more than 27 in any of these scenarios so it's pointless.
    Last edited by Proactive_; 11th September 2017 at 07:40.

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    wow ,this guy is savage.he is definitely gonna beat sachin's record.All the best to this guy.

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    Btw, @Tusker, remove minnows like Ire and Scotland in the table you posted and Kohli's average falls again:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    So, in essence, here's how Kohli's average falls in all the tables considered

    59.15 (against Top 6 Bilaterals)

    47.60 (against Top 6 Multi Nation tournament Priliminary)

    43.30 (In WC and Champions Trophy against Top 6)

    42.32 (In tournaments of 3 teams or more, barring WC/Champions Trophy)

    39.14 ( In WC/Champions Trophy Knockouts)

    29.16 ( In WC/Champions Trophy Knockouts without Bangladesh)

    17.75 (Average in multi team tournament knockouts except WC/Champions Trophy)

    I mean I just can't. Any way people try to slice and dice it, the facts are just very too glaring to ignore.

  64. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Btw, @Tusker, remove minnows like Ire and Scotland in the table you posted and Kohli's average falls again:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    So, in essence, here's how Kohli's average falls in all the tables considered

    59.15 (against Top 6 Bilaterals)

    47.60 (against Top 6 Multi Nation tournament Priliminary)

    43.30 (In WC and Champions Trophy against Top 6)

    42.32 (In tournaments of 3 teams or more, barring WC/Champions Trophy)

    39.14 ( In WC/Champions Trophy Knockouts)

    29.16 ( In WC/Champions Trophy Knockouts without Bangladesh)

    17.75 (Average in multi team tournament knockouts except WC/Champions Trophy)

    I mean I just can't. Any way people try to slice and dice it, the facts are just very too glaring to ignore.
    He has failed in 2 big matches like sf 2015,final 2017. He was a rookie in 2011 and even in the final he stopped sl momentum and had a partnership of 70 which was crucial.

    For failing in 2 matches u r posting nonsense nonstop.

    At the end of the day he is a world cup winner and the other guys u point have not

  65. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by sachin100 View Post
    He has failed in 2 big matches like sf 2015,final 2017. He was a rookie in 2011 and even in the final he stopped sl momentum and had a partnership of 70 which was crucial.

    For failing in 2 matches u r posting nonsense nonstop.

    At the end of the day he is a world cup winner and the other guys u point have not
    At the end of the day Sreesanth is a World Cup winner while guys like De Villiers are not. Proves nothing. It's not just about 2 matches, all the facts are the on the table.

  66. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    At the end of the day Sreesanth is a World Cup winner while guys like De Villiers are not. Proves nothing. It's not just about 2 matches, all the facts are the on the table.
    Because as u said they don't matter to u. Only knock out matches in icc tournaments that to only idis matter to u.

    He was sensational in icc t 20 tournaments which u cleverly sidestep. If he is a choker why didn't he choke in that knock out matches?

    Is he a choker only in odi icc knock outs? He has done well in ct 2013 final in a low scoring game

    Why r u excluding bangladesh semifinal? Is it not a icc knock out where he is supposed to choke

  67. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by sachin100 View Post
    Because as u said they don't matter to u. Only knock out matches in icc tournaments that to only idis matter to u.

    He was sensational in icc t 20 tournaments which u cleverly sidestep. If he is a choker why didn't he choke in that knock out matches?

    Is he a choker only in odi icc knock outs? He has done well in ct 2013 final in a low scoring game

    Why r u excluding bangladesh semifinal? Is it not a icc knock out where he is supposed to choke
    No, you're wrong again. See post 246 for a much more comprehensive picture. Kohli can keep all the T20 records where he can compete with the likes of Samuels and Brathwaite for the top spot, I got no issues with that. In ODIs his record is beyond over hyped. His averages fall from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s 20s and even 10s when you delve into the stats. Also, I've included the SF against Bang, add which he averages 39 while removing them, it falls down to the paltry 29. He is hardly worth the hype as an ODI batsman and these facts prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    No, you're wrong again. See post 246 for a much more comprehensive picture. Kohli can keep all the T20 records where he can compete with the likes of Samuels and Brathwaite for the top spot, I got no issues with that. In ODIs his record is beyond over hyped. His averages fall from almost 60 to the 40s, 30s 20s and even 10s when you delve into the stats. Also, I've included the SF against Bang, add which he averages 39 while removing them, it falls down to the paltry 29. He is hardly worth the hype as an ODI batsman and these facts prove it.
    So 2 big matches is all it took for u to come to that conclusion. What are the important series knockouts he is averaging 19?

  69. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by sachin100 View Post
    So 2 big matches is all it took for u to come to that conclusion. What are the important series knockouts he is averaging 19?
    Again, See post 246.. all the tables have been posted, click on them to see all the concerned matches.

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    He will windup as the GOAT when he retires - in another 10 years perhaps. He is an ATG already. Like other greats, he is a genius with some flaws or chinks in his armour.

    My God. I am here after maybe a two year hiatus. Greetings friends, if you still remember me. 😁

  71. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianWillow View Post
    He will windup as the GOAT when he retires - in another 10 years perhaps. He is an ATG already. Like other greats, he is a genius with some flaws or chinks in his armour.

    My God. I am here after maybe a two year hiatus. Greetings friends, if you still remember me. ��
    Look who's back.

    The LEGEND has arrived.

    You always seem to be active for a few months, then take a long break, then back for a while, then a long break. What's up with that?


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  72. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Look who's back.

    The LEGEND has arrived.

    You always seem to be active for a few months, then take a long break, then back for a while, then a long break. What's up with that?
    Hahaha. Lots of reasons for that sensible.

  73. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Eh, I agree that Bracken would have been better if the difference in wickets wasn't so startling.. 236 wickets vs 78 wickets there just isn't a comparison.
    Bracken played 45 Prelim matches and thats not a good enough sample for you but Kohli is a failure for you based on just 5 matches against Eng and NZ ... you don't see the problem in that ?


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  74. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Bracken played 45 Prelim matches and thats not a good enough sample for you but Kohli is a failure for you based on just 5 matches against Eng and NZ ... you don't see the problem in that ?
    45 is alright, but your comparison is with someone who has played 200+. I've already admitted that Bracken has better stats, it's only the longevity that's the issue. I've always rated Bracken as a great ODI bowler, I definitely won't be having a 100 post discussion if someone prefers Bracken over Waqar on ODIs. But I'll digress here. In case of Kohli though, the stats are clear, see post 303 for reference as to how much his performances fall from bilateral to multi team tournaments.

    I mean, it's fine. If you rate bilaterals on par with multi team series then it's your prerogative, I personally don't and have always found them to be much more meaningless (even after the inception of the rating system) as compared to Tri series and all. Kohli can silence everyone by having a great WC 2019 with a good performance or two in knockout games. But at this moment, he's definitely not worth the hype that he is getting. That's all.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 11th September 2017 at 16:48.

  75. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Again you're being hypocrite. On one hand you're justifying Dravid's slow approach in ODIs stating it was acceptable in that era while you're bashing Rohit for having strikerate of around 90. How many openers in today's world have strikerate of 90? Please dont list the name of hacks. Rohit may not be the best but he does the job when he gets going. Now coming to your point where you easily shrugged off 200 like as if we see batsmen been scoring 200s alot these days. In entire history just 5 batsmen have managed to do that. So according to you scoring 200 on 350 pitch seems norm, then please tell me why have other teams batsmen have not been able to score 200s. Now you're bashing Rohit even when he scores. We all know how crappy Indian bowlers are and more often than not will lose match from winning position. So, if Rohit score a century even at strike rate of 90 and bowlers get hammered and lose match, guess what who you gonna blame? Rohit 'soft runs' Sharma.
    Asian fans are really something. If a bowler takes 5 wickets and give away 65-70 runs and team's best batsman score 0(1) are you gonna be blaming the batsman or the bowler for the defeat? When was the last time a bowler who took 4fer or 5fer was blamed for defeat? Why the double standard?
    just an fyi, im no Rohit fan matter fact Im not a fan of any player. I only want to see my team does well.
    I'll certainly list the matches where he played the best innings. Winning a match you also need bowlers to do their job.
    1) 264

    2) Century against AUS in Melbourne on tough pitch where every other batsmen struggled. We did lost the match due to our crappy bowlers we are blessed with. Without his century bowlers would've lost that match inside 20 overs.

    3) 200 against Australia.

    4) Century against BD in QF of WC 2015.

    These are few innings I could think top of my head. One thing i agree with you is that Rohit is immensly talented. He is also the laziest player i have ever seen. If he had even 50% of the work ethics of Kohli, he may very well would've been better than Kohli. But sadly, he just too laid back and lazy. He is Akmal of India. Despite his laziness, he is still key member of Indian team and to label his effort as useless just make absolute no sense.
    Since you do not consider Rohit, please enlighten us who you'd rather have in team that would do much better job than him?
    I have made it very clear , I dont look at stats blindly to judge a player . if you watched cricket from 90s to early 2000 , Indian batting from being dependent on Tendulkar moved to being dependent on the Top3 and its only after the likes of Yuvi and Kaif came in to picture we stopped relaying on the top order completely . Dravid played a role of a anchor and every time we lost 2 early wickets he had to play cautiously , unlike now especially when we played overseas it was pretty normal for us to lose early wickets . Thats playing according to situation , Some one like Virat may have played differently but no one is comparing him to Virat anyway .

    Rohit in comparison starts slowly on flat decks where a par score is 350 , sucks the momentum out of the innings , thats lack of intent to me and a player who plays for his personal records. I just dont like such players in the Indian team .
    The only opener I rate these days is Warner , he does not have to average 60 but when he plays 20 overs he puts the team in position to win the match , unlike Sharma who we have to wait till 43rd over for him to start taking any chances .

    I would suggest you go check some of the score cards of our matches in late 90s and early 2000 when India got good starts . We got to a score of ~180-200 those days , with the game changing gradually ~2010 India on a good day got to ~240-280 way ahead of other teams , now in the T20 era we bat at the pace we batted in late 90s .

    Stop blaming bowlers please , if anything our ODI bowling has improved over the years and its just a coincidence that only when he scores our bowlers struggle ? its not a coincidence , just a fact that he scores only batting first on flat beds and we end up getting to a par score at best even when he bats well . No wonder we struggle to defend 300 on a 350 pitch .

    I would open with anyone else who shows more intent than this guy . Good comparison with Akmal , I think you just agreed with me on why he should not be in the team .


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    Sadly Rohit plays a bit for his own records and sometimes takes away the momentum, if batsmen at the other end have a bad day. That said there is no doubt that he is very good. Everyone can't be a Warner or Sehwag though. 90 is a decent enough strike rate, but Rohit's intent is not always positive.

  77. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    I have made it very clear , I dont look at stats blindly to judge a player . if you watched cricket from 90s to early 2000 , Indian batting from being dependent on Tendulkar moved to being dependent on the Top3 and its only after the likes of Yuvi and Kaif came in to picture we stopped relaying on the top order completely . Dravid played a role of a anchor and every time we lost 2 early wickets he had to play cautiously , unlike now especially when we played overseas it was pretty normal for us to lose early wickets . Thats playing according to situation , Some one like Virat may have played differently but no one is comparing him to Virat anyway .

    Rohit in comparison starts slowly on flat decks where a par score is 350 , sucks the momentum out of the innings , thats lack of intent to me and a player who plays for his personal records. I just dont like such players in the Indian team .
    The only opener I rate these days is Warner , he does not have to average 60 but when he plays 20 overs he puts the team in position to win the match , unlike Sharma who we have to wait till 43rd over for him to start taking any chances .

    I would suggest you go check some of the score cards of our matches in late 90s and early 2000 when India got good starts . We got to a score of ~180-200 those days , with the game changing gradually ~2010 India on a good day got to ~240-280 way ahead of other teams , now in the T20 era we bat at the pace we batted in late 90s .

    Stop blaming bowlers please , if anything our ODI bowling has improved over the years and its just a coincidence that only when he scores our bowlers struggle ? its not a coincidence , just a fact that he scores only batting first on flat beds and we end up getting to a par score at best even when he bats well . No wonder we struggle to defend 300 on a 350 pitch .

    I would open with anyone else who shows more intent than this guy . Good comparison with Akmal , I think you just agreed with me on why he should not be in the team .
    Now you're providing a proper constructive criticism that helps me understand your point of view compared to your earlier argument 'soft runs'. Coming to topic on hand, Rohit indeed plays defensively in first 10 overs. If i recall correctly, India had the lowest run rate for the first 10overs for recently concluded ICC Champions Trophy. Now we all can argue that its a selfish play by R Sharma, but how can we be so sure that its not the decision by the team management and Kohli? Maybe team management want to hold on to maximum wickets at the end and have a go at the bowling. Im not really sure what the exact reason is, it may very well be the intent from a batsman or perhaps a collective decision. But i have to agree with you that bat safely and attack later modelled is outdated and will always have risk of posting below par total, for instance match against SL in champions trophy.
    Im in favour of dropping R Sharma for good if it means Indian team is doing well. Like i mentioned, i only care about Indian team doing well regardless of who plays.

    Now coming to Indian bowling, well yes it had improved over the years when we look back and see we mostly had trundler like I Pathan, V Kumar, Ashok 'High Jump' Dinda and other rubbish bowlers. For the first time in longtime, I've seen 4 man pace attack(including H Pandya) who can bowl 140+ in our lineup. But still our bowling line up is weak, and its down to poor selection of players. First of all, U Yadav should mostly be reserved for test matches. He is one bowler who could single handedly win matches for opponents. Even on seamer friendly surface, he will get tonked for 7 an over thus releasing all the pressure that was created by other bowlers. Secondly, R Ashwin is complete liability in LOIs. His bowling is toothless on batting surfaces, plus he is also the slowest and worst ground fielder. He is so unfit that he will never be able to save runs on boundaries and/or run/dive take spectacular catch that can win match; less we talk about his batting in Odis the better.

    You see if team management had brains then they could easily field young upcoming players against Australia to test them out. But we will be getting to see the Axar Patel. If India teams want to have better outing than champions trophy then they need to get over with their obssession with spinners 'containing' the run rate because most teams will take apart bowlers like Ashwin/Jadeja/Patel. K Yadav must be the number 1 choice of spinner for Indian team.
    Anyways, we both want to see our team does well and want to see best possible 11 men on field.

    Might sharing me your choice of 11 men for series against Aussies and Kiwis?
    Last edited by hadi123; 12th September 2017 at 12:35.

  78. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Now you're providing a proper constructive criticism that helps me understand your point of view compared to your earlier argument 'soft runs'. Coming to topic on hand, Rohit indeed plays defensively in first 10 overs. If i recall correctly, India had the lowest run rate for the first 10overs for recently concluded ICC Champions Trophy. Now we all can argue that its a selfish play by R Sharma, but how can we be so sure that its not the decision by the team management and Kohli? Maybe team management want to hold on to maximum wickets at the end and have a go at the bowling. Im not really sure what the exact reason is, it may very well be the intent from a batsman or perhaps a collective decision. But i have to agree with you that bat safely and attack later modelled is outdated and will always have risk of posting below par total, for instance match against SL in champions trophy.
    Im in favour of dropping R Sharma for good if it means Indian team is doing well. Like i mentioned, i only care about Indian team doing well regardless of who plays.

    Now coming to Indian bowling, well yes it had improved over the years when we look back and see we mostly had trundler like I Pathan, V Kumar, Ashok 'High Jump' Dinda and other crappy bowlers. For the first time in longtime, I've seen 4 man pace attack(including H Pandya) who can bowl 140+ in our lineup. But still our bowling line up is weak, and its down to poor selection of players. First of all, U Yadav should mostly be reserved for test matches. He is one bowler who could single handedly win matches for opponents. Even on seamer friendly surface, he will get tonked for 7 an over thus releasing all the pressure that was created by other bowlers. Secondly, R Ashwin is complete liability in LOIs. His bowling is toothless on batting surfaces, plus he is also the slowest and worst ground fielder. He is so unfit that he will never be able to save runs on boundaries and/or run/dive take spectacular catch that can win match; less we talk about his batting in Odis the better.

    You see if team management had brains then they could easily field young upcoming players against Australia to test them out. But we will be getting to see the Axar 'chucking' Patel. If India teams want to have better outting than champions trophy then they need to get over with their obssession with spinners 'containing' the run rate because most teams will take apart bowlers like Ashwin/Jadeja/Patel. K Yadav must be the number 1 choice of spinner for Indian team.
    Anyways, we both want to see our team does well and want to see best possible 11 men on field.

    Might sharing me your choice of 11 men for series against Aussies and Kiwis?
    I dont have anything against Rohit , like I said I was a fan once and even when he was ridiculed for his early failures I wanted him tried in Test cricket . its after seeing him for couple of years I changed my opinion completely , I dont think he has improved any aspect of his game since he started off . The statistical improvement is due to just one reason of him opening , which suits his game not necessarily best suited for the team . The number's of 180/200/240 I gave was at ~40th over mark , I wasnt clear there . I have criticised Tendulkar/Ganguly for not accelerating earlier after getting good opening starts , which was probably very harsh for 90s but you can imagine how it feels when we play with 90s approach now.

    Agree on Ashwin , Yadav and Patel .

    My choice of 11, I dont see it happening anytime soon !

    Dhawan
    Rohit ( ideally Pant )
    Virat
    Rahul
    Pandey ( Ideally Sarfaraz )
    Dhoni
    Pandya
    Kuldeep
    BK
    Shami
    Bumrah


    Pant , KL , Kuldeep and Sarfaraz have been 4 youngsters I have followed very closely frm their U-19 days . Only Sarfaraz seems to have completely messed up his career , I always thought he was one player who could replace the Dhoni the batsmen . I hope at least 3 of these play the next WC , can be very special players especially KL and Kuldeep .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  79. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    I dont have anything against Rohit , like I said I was a fan once and even when he was ridiculed for his early failures I wanted him tried in Test cricket . its after seeing him for couple of years I changed my opinion completely , I dont think he has improved any aspect of his game since he started off . The statistical improvement is due to just one reason of him opening , which suits his game not necessarily best suited for the team . The number's of 180/200/240 I gave was at ~40th over mark , I wasnt clear there . I have criticised Tendulkar/Ganguly for not accelerating earlier after getting good opening starts , which was probably very harsh for 90s but you can imagine how it feels when we play with 90s approach now.

    Agree on Ashwin , Yadav and Patel .

    My choice of 11, I dont see it happening anytime soon !

    Dhawan
    Rohit ( ideally Pant )
    Virat
    Rahul
    Pandey ( Ideally Sarfaraz )
    Dhoni
    Pandya
    Kuldeep
    BK
    Shami
    Bumrah


    Pant , KL , Kuldeep and Sarfaraz have been 4 youngsters I have followed very closely frm their U-19 days . Only Sarfaraz seems to have completely messed up his career , I always thought he was one player who could replace the Dhoni the batsmen . I hope at least 3 of these play the next WC , can be very special players especially KL and Kuldeep .
    My choice of 11 would also be same as yours except for Sarfraz. Id stick with M Pandey as we need player who absorb pressure and guide lower order. Pandey is must specially now that Dhoni have regressed and Pandya is hit and miss.

  80. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    45 is alright, but your comparison is with someone who has played 200+. I've already admitted that Bracken has better stats, it's only the longevity that's the issue. I've always rated Bracken as a great ODI bowler, I definitely won't be having a 100 post discussion if someone prefers Bracken over Waqar on ODIs. But I'll digress here. In case of Kohli though, the stats are clear, see post 303 for reference as to how much his performances fall from bilateral to multi team tournaments.
    huh ? what do you mean "45 is alright" ? Shouldn't it be just 5 ODI's ? Or perhaps different yardsticks for different cricketers ?

    And no ... nobody who knows his cricket will pick Bracken over Waqar. This is the point which you will never get. Same thing for Kohli over most modern day greats when it comes to chasing.

    I mean, it's fine. If you rate bilaterals on par with multi team series then it's your prerogative, I personally don't and have always found them to be much more meaningless (even after the inception of the rating system) as compared to Tri series and all.
    This is where having an opinion and backing it up with facts becomes hard. There is no way you can prove your theories about Tri-Series being soo competitive. Nobody really misses those meaningless trophies such as the great Khaleej Times trophy. Did you even know about that trophy and when was the last time it was played and who won it ? Nobody gives a rats behind. Same thing for bilaterals therefore they are all the same for most part.

    The only tournaments that matter are the WC and ICC events because of the history and prestige. Even the CT was almost dead ... had India not won it in 2013 it would have certainly been discontinued.


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