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  1. #1
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    Is batting against Anderson and Broad in England one of the toughest challenges in cricket history?

    They are not quite ATG bowlers overall but are beasts at home and have been phenomenally consistent in their own conditions for almost a decade now.

    My question is, while they are not overall as good as Wasim/Waqar, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, etc, can it be considered that they are an ATG pairing and one of the toughest attacks ever to face in their home conditions?

    Imo they are as tough as any other ATG pairing at home but mediocre overseas.

  2. #2
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    Yes at home though but then so are Ashwin/Jadeja at home.

  3. #3
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    Playing against Indian spinners in India is thr ultimate test.

  4. #4
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    Not really, batting against ashwin/jadeja is tougher, the stats prove it

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

  5. #5
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    Not sure about whether it's one of the biggest challenges in history but one of the most toughest challenges in the present game. They are very difficult to face at home, especially for openers when the ball is new and when there's a bit of cloud cover.

  6. #6
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    Matches with Anderson and Broad in England against Australia they have taken 44 wickets @ 33.36

    Not sure how other countries fare

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuts_and_cuts_hard View Post
    They are not quite ATG bowlers overall but are beasts at home and have been phenomenally consistent in their own conditions for almost a decade now.

    My question is, while they are not overall as good as Wasim/Waqar, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, etc, can it be considered that they are an ATG pairing and one of the toughest attacks ever to face in their home conditions?

    Imo they are as tough as any other ATG pairing at home but mediocre overseas.
    Maybe some sort of stats should be pulled up for bowling pairs in home conditions?

  8. #8
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    Just looking at other countries

    Rough figures
    SA 29
    IND 25
    NZ 22
    WI 20
    SL 17
    PAK 17

  9. #9
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    Yes, they are definitely one of the biggest challenges for the present (past?) generation of batsmen when at their best.

    Having said that, Hashim Amla averages mightily high against them. Wonder which other batsmen have played them with relative ease?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Yes, they are definitely one of the biggest challenges for the present (past?) generation of batsmen when at their best.

    Having said that, Hashim Amla averages mightily high against them. Wonder which other batsmen have played them with relative ease?
    Shai Hope,Kraigg Brathwaite

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToeCrusher2 View Post
    Not really, batting against ashwin/jadeja is tougher, the stats prove it

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team
    With both bowlers playing it gets even better:

    Only AUS has won one single Test in Ind:

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team


    Every major Test playing nation has won atleast one Test in Eng.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team

    ---------------

    Overall:

    Total 22, W-17, L-1, D-4

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team


    Total 60 , W-37, L-12, D-11

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team


    Yes I don't see Ashwin and Jadeja playing together for 38 more Tests at home but we will certainly get close to the 37 Wins that Jimmy and Broad have together in much lesser tests.
    Last edited by Tusker; 14th September 2017 at 13:16.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Yes, they are definitely one of the biggest challenges for the present (past?) generation of batsmen when at their best.

    Having said that, Hashim Amla averages mightily high against them. Wonder which other batsmen have played them with relative ease?
    Azhar Ali

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebreaker View Post
    Shai Hope,Kraigg Brathwaite
    hahaha thats cruel man


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    hahaha thats cruel man
    No, what's cruel is that these players are better at playing the moving ball than your overrated Indian FTBs.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    No, what's cruel is that these players are better at playing the moving ball than your overrated Indian FTBs.
    No one has played Andersaon/Broad on a bowler friendly pitch better than Dravid .

    I laughed cos , You very well know Amla's stats in England is inflated cos of the 300 he scored on a flat bed . SA scored 650 lsoing 2 wickets in that innings with smith and Kallis as well getting big hundreds .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  16. #16
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    Also, don't bring Ashwin and Jadeja into this. Any quality spinner turns into a monster on Indian test pitches, when they're doctored to turn from day 1.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    No one has played Andersaon/Broad on a bowler friendly pitch better than Dravid .

    I laughed cos , You very well know Amla's stats in England is inflated cos of the 300 he scored on a flat bed . SA scored 650 lsoing 2 wickets in that innings with smith and Kallis as well getting big hundreds .
    Not talking about Dravid, he was all class.

    Yes, South Africa batted exceptionally well in that innings but it was hardly a batting paradise This is why England got nowhere near to their score over the course of both their innings and Peterson, a batsman vastly inferior to Amla, Kallis and Smith was dismissed in the first two overs.

  18. #18
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    Yes.. much like ash jsdeja combo in sc

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Also, don't bring Ashwin and Jadeja into this. Any quality spinner turns into a monster on Indian test pitches, when they're doctored to turn from day 1.
    Not even quality spinners are required, a normal bowler like Steve O Keefe rolled over so called 'Best players of spin', India in Pune by taking 12 wickets for 70 odd runs in a match, where Jadeja and Ashwin both combined were not able to match him.

  20. #20
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    Anderson and Broad are gun.

    One of the toughest in this era.

    Excellent combo in England.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  21. #21
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    Broad hasn't done anything substantial of late, Anderson is the only threat nowadays.

    A bowling attack of Hazlewood, Starc and Cummins is a more fearsome combo than Anderson and Broad.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Not talking about Dravid, he was all class.

    Yes, South Africa batted exceptionally well in that innings but it was hardly a batting paradise This is why England got nowhere near to their score over the course of both their innings and Peterson, a batsman vastly inferior to Amla, Kallis and Smith was dismissed in the first two overs.
    637/2 and the pitch was not flat , SA just played exceptionally well ?
    As for England they batted first against morkel , Philander and Steyn makes all the difference in England . They managed ~400 in the first innings .


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

  23. #23
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    Only if there is good cloud cover and some grass on the pitch.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    637/2 and the pitch was not flat , SA just played exceptionally well ?
    As for England they batted first against morkel , Philander and Steyn makes all the difference in England . They managed ~400 in the first innings .
    All he knows is when indian batsmen perform flat pitch.
    When indian bowlers perform minefield.
    When pak team players or his beloved amla does well the pitch must be difficult to bat and a certain flat pitch must be one which is not easy to bat on. And yet he of all people questions people about logic.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Not talking about Dravid, he was all class.

    Yes, South Africa batted exceptionally well in that innings but it was hardly a batting paradise
    Oh my god what.

    I'm pretty sure you are intentionally taking the mickey at this point. Anyone who saw that match knows what a road that pitch was.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    637/2 and the pitch was not flat , SA just played exceptionally well ?
    As for England they batted first against morkel , Philander and Steyn makes all the difference in England . They managed ~400 in the first innings .
    And couldn't cross 300 on the second dig. Oh, I forgot, that was a magical pitch that was hard for England, easy for South Africa and hard again for England.

    Anderson, Broad and Swann are better in their home conditions than Steyn, Philander and Morkel. The difference was that South Africa had three ATGs batting for them.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsalan Pro View Post
    Not even quality spinners are required, a normal bowler like Steve O Keefe rolled over so called 'Best players of spin', India in Pune by taking 12 wickets for 70 odd runs in a match, where Jadeja and Ashwin both combined were not able to match him.
    Exactly. Bowling well in England requires skill and exceptional talent. Same is not true for the minefields of India where even Indian batsmen struggle to make 50s. Ashwin and Jadeja have their numbers solely because they are Indians. Anderson and Broad have specific skill-sets for English conditions which makes them such a fearsome pair at home.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Exactly. Bowling well in England requires skill and exceptional talent. Same is not true for the minefields of India where even Indian batsmen struggle to make 50s. Ashwin and Jadeja have their numbers solely because they are Indians. Anderson and Broad have specific skill-sets for English conditions which makes them such a fearsome pair at home.
    Kohli must be the greatest test batsman in history then cause he averages 55+ in India with 7 centuries on those minefields

  29. #29
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    Nothing compared to McGrath and Warne.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToeCrusher2 View Post
    Kohli must be the greatest test batsman in history then cause he averages 55+ in India with 7 centuries on those minefields
    No. On those minefields he's failed every time. The pitches he has scored on have been flat ones that India laid out for England and New Zealand. As expected, Ashwin averaged 30 in that series against England because he wasn't given a pitch more suited to him than his tailor-made suit.

    And what? How does an average of 55 make him the greatest batsman in history? Pujara, from his own team averages more and Amla averages 60+.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    No. On those minefields he's failed every time. The pitches he has scored on have been flat ones that India laid out for England and New Zealand. As expected, Ashwin averaged 30 in that series against England because he wasn't given a pitch more suited to him than his tailor-made suit.

    And what? How does an average of 55 make him the greatest batsman in history? Pujara, from his own team averages more and Amla averages 60+.
    Then jadeja must be the greatest spinner in history because he averaged 25 on those flat ones which were laid out for england and nz. Btw ashwin managed to average 17 on the flat wickest laid out for nz

  32. #32
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    New Zealand are rubbish in Asia. No test defeat hurts more than the one test we lost to the Kiwis at home.

    You guys have a proud history of spin-bowling. Stop embarrassing everyone by pretending that Ashwin and Jadeja are better than the likes of Kumble, Bedi, Bhajjan, etc.

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    Batting against Broad and Anderson in English conditions is indeed a challenge for many visiting teams. However, Id say currently Ashwin/Jadeja combo in India have to be even stiffer challenges. Now that K Yadav have also joined the rank it will make it even harder for visiting batsmen to counter the trio.

  34. #34
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    Australia in Australia with both McGrath and Warne playing.

    54 tests, 43 wins, 7 draws and 4 losses. The four losses were against South Africa in 1994, Pakistan in 1995 and the West Indies twice in 1996/1997. From 1997 to 2007 Australia did not lose a single test at home when both McGrath and Warne played.

    England in England with both Broad and Anderson playing.

    60 tests, 37 wins, 11 draws and 12 losses.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  35. #35
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    On Ashwin Jadeja point, I would like to say that Ash bowled poorly vs Australia where conditions were helpful but still his overall performance wasn't that good.

    So, we can certainly say that it does require a certain skill set to do well even in India for spinners and not all can be successful there unless what the pitches were Vs SA but it wasn't the case Vs everyone.

    Now irrespective of stats,it is also a fact that Ashwin bowled really well Vs England when pitches were flatter. He was definitely better than his AVG of 29 there.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    On Ashwin Jadeja point, I would like to say that Ash bowled poorly vs Australia where conditions were helpful but still his overall performance wasn't that good.

    So, we can certainly say that it does require a certain skill set to do well even in India for spinners and not all can be successful there unless what the pitches were Vs SA but it wasn't the case Vs everyone.

    Now irrespective of stats,it is also a fact that Ashwin bowled really well Vs England when pitches were flatter. He was definitely better than his AVG of 29 there.
    If i recall correctly due to super long home season( played 9'test prior to Australia series) many Indian cricketers were burned out and/or carrying injuries, which is why after Australia series some players decided to take rest from IPL. I honestly do not ever want to see BCCI conducting so many test matches in short span of time, they will run the team to the ground. I dont even know why India agreed to play 5 test matches against poms at home when Indians dont even care about test cricket.

    But coming to your point that Ashwin bowled poorly against Aussies, is partial true as he played important role in levelling the series 1-1 when India was defending low total. Again, we may have seen better from Aswhin had he not burned out due to long season. Now imagine, Broad-Anderson playing 9 test matches on the trot and then facing India or any other team, im pretty sure either or even both wouldnt be same as we would expect them to be.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    If i recall correctly due to super long home season( played 9'test prior to Australia series) many Indian cricketers were burned out and/or carrying injuries, which is why after Australia series some players decided to take rest from IPL. I honestly do not ever want to see BCCI conducting so many test matches in short span of time, they will run the team to the ground. I dont even know why India agreed to play 5 test matches against poms at home when Indians dont even care about test cricket.

    But coming to your point that Ashwin bowled poorly against Aussies, is partial true as he played important role in levelling the series 1-1 when India was defending low total. Again, we may have seen better from Aswhin had he not burned out due to long season. Now imagine, Broad-Anderson playing 9 test matches on the trot and then facing India or any other team, im pretty sure either or even both wouldnt be same as we would expect them to be.
    Yes..I am not saying that Ashwin bowled poorly because he wasn't good enough but he had form and fitness issue andas a result he certainly didn't bowled as well as is expected. I think you should read my post again as you are confusing points here.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Yes..I am not saying that Ashwin bowled poorly because he wasn't good enough but he had form and fitness issue andas a result he certainly didn't bowled as well as is expected. I think you should read my post again as you are confusing points here.
    Im not actually denying you i only give you detailed explanations for his initial poor series against the Aussies.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianG00se View Post
    Im not actually denying you i only give you detailed explanations for his initial poor series against the Aussies.
    Ok.. Thanks. I knew there was form and fitness issue with Ashwin during that series but didn't knew the exact thing.

  40. #40
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    Some people here are too salty. Haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    On Ashwin Jadeja point, I would like to say that Ash bowled poorly vs Australia where conditions were helpful but still his overall performance wasn't that good.

    So, we can certainly say that it does require a certain skill set to do well even in India for spinners and not all can be successful there unless what the pitches were Vs SA but it wasn't the case Vs everyone.

    Now irrespective of stats,it is also a fact that Ashwin bowled really well Vs England when pitches were flatter. He was definitely better than his AVG of 29 there.
    Yeah. It's nonsense to say you need skills to bowl in England but not in India.

    Jeetan Patel, Santner, Craig averaged 40-60 in the 2016 series.
    Lyon averaged 37 in the 2013 series (which included 2 rank turners).
    The great O Keefe averaged 50 in the rest of the 3 games post Pune.
    Ashwin averaged 50+ in 2012 England series.

    Lyon on his 2nd tour to India, averaged 23 cos he bowled way better. O Keefe averaged the same but that was due to the first game heroics than consistent performances.

    The only tour where visiting spinners averaged great just for showing up was during SA series where Tahir, Simon and co averaged 20. In the flatter tracks (Bangalore and Delhi), they averaged 70. In that tour, our spinners averaged 11 and 13 with low 20s average in those flatter tracks. lol.

    Our spinners have been doing the job at home for a long time.

    And yes, Ash was good in England series. Averaged like 23 after 4 tests (others were averaging above 30 except Rashid I think) but was a bit unlucky in 5th test last innings. Post that Jaddu has gone up a notch or two while Ash was mostly poor (probably due to injury).

    Coming back to the topic, historically, the toughest pair competition comes down to:

    Wasim-Waqar Vs Ambrose-Walsh Vs McGrath-Warne Vs Donald-Pollock
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 14th September 2017 at 16:33.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Some people here are too salty. Haha.



    Yeah. It's nonsense to say you need skills to bowl in England but not in India.

    Jeetan Patel, Santner, Craig averaged 40-60 in the 2016 series.
    Lyon averaged 37 in the 2013 series (which included 2 rank turners).
    The great O Keefe averaged 50 in the rest of the 3 games post Pune.
    Ashwin averaged 50+ in 2012 England series.

    Lyon on his 2nd tour to India, averaged 23 cos he bowled way better. O Keefe averaged the same but that was due to the first game heroics than consistent performances.

    The only tour where visiting spinners averaged great just for showing up was during SA series where Tahir, Simon and co averaged 20. In the flatter tracks (Bangalore and Delhi), they averaged 70. In that tour, our spinners averaged 11 and 13 with low 20s average in those flatter tracks. lol.

    Our spinners have been doing the job at home for a long time.

    And yes, Ash was good in England series. Averaged like 23 after 4 tests (others were averaging above 30 except Rashid I think) but was a bit unlucky in 5th test last innings. Post that Jaddu has gone up a notch or two while Ash was mostly poor (probably due to injury).

    Coming back to the topic, historically, the toughest pair competition comes down to:

    Wasim-Waqar Vs Ambrose-Walsh Vs McGrath-Warne Vs Donald-Pollock
    Ambrose -Bishop were much more dangerous than Ambrose- Walsh

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by anoop View Post
    Ambrose -Bishop were much more dangerous than Ambrose- Walsh
    Sample set matters.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

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    Marshall and Holding pair was probably the most lethal ever. Wasim-Waqar, McGrath-Warne, Ambrose-Walsh, Donald-Pollock etc.

    Botham-Willis at peak was probably the most lethal English pair. (Anderson-Broad comes second maybe?)

    Steyn-Philander (in SA) was the most dangerous pair of this decade? I guess so. Cant beat two bowlers averaging 20 odd there.

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    Not as much threatening for Pakistan as they level the series in the presence of both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ipl_fan View Post
    Playing against Indian spinners in India is thr ultimate test.
    Cakewalk for us.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    And couldn't cross 300 on the second dig. Oh, I forgot, that was a magical pitch that was hard for England, easy for South Africa and hard again for England.

    Anderson, Broad and Swann are better in their home conditions than Steyn, Philander and Morkel. The difference was that South Africa had three ATGs batting for them.
    lol do you know anything about score board pressure ? is it the first time you have come across a match where one team puts up a huge score on a flat pitch and the other crumbles under pressure ? And scoring 300 in the last innings if anything proves it was a flat pitch .

    I really cant believe am actually having an argument on this !!


    " you don't play for the crowd, you play for your country " - MSD

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    Quote Originally Posted by jusarrived View Post
    lol do you know anything about score board pressure ? is it the first time you have come across a match where one team puts up a huge score on a flat pitch and the other crumbles under pressure ? And scoring 300 in the last innings if anything proves it was a flat pitch .

    I really cant believe am actually having an argument on this !!
    Yeah. Some of the biggest test wins happened on extremely flat pitches where the team batting first posts a huge first innings score and then cheaply dismisses the opposition twice.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Only if there is good cloud cover and some grass on the pitch.
    Curious how Jimmy just took 7-43 on a shirt -front under bright sunshine then.....

    In answer to the OP question I don't see that they are any harder to face than, say, Gough & Caddick or Harmison & Hoggard. They have just been around longer due to central contracts. That, and because visiting batsmen have a lesser skill set than their predecessors.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Australia in Australia with both McGrath and Warne playing.

    54 tests, 43 wins, 7 draws and 4 losses. The four losses were against South Africa in 1994, Pakistan in 1995 and the West Indies twice in 1996/1997. From 1997 to 2007 Australia did not lose a single test at home when both McGrath and Warne played.

    England in England with both Broad and Anderson playing.

    60 tests, 37 wins, 11 draws and 12 losses.
    Not that I am comparing Jimmy and Draco with those two Aussie champions, but consider also that McWarne usually had a mountain or runs to bowl at, while runs are in short supply for England these days.

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