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  1. #161
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    he'll get away with it. Probably a suspended sentence and some community work. Coaching some inner city kids etc. Now if he were a BME, well that would be a different story..

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Anyone else find it weird the video of him mocking the kid was released straight after the incident with the fight happened?

    It's almost as if the press were waiting for something to happen and release/post that video. As they say here, in the UK, "they pick you up, only to knock you down."

    .
    Nice to see someone else is wise to their tactics.

    But as you say, he loaded their gun for them.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic_Inzi View Post
    what about Hales with those soft kicks on the head..
    Cheap shots. A bit like when he was mocking Azhar Ali.



  4. #164
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    Stokes should thank his lucky stars he's not being done for murder. That guy when he fell could quite easily have smashed his head on the floor and anything could have happened after that.



  5. #165
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    well there goes the test series.

    Roy can easily replace hales, but they will miss stokes' presence in the ODIs.

    This is really awful, the whole event, plus we almost had a delicious ashes in our hands, englands best ODI line up vs australias best pace attack


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by idrizzy View Post
    His career is far from over. He got into a brawl, looks bad, but the ECB will still want him in England and they'll do anything they can to do that.

    Sports stars get away with anything.
    Better bring back KP then.

    KP should destroy them in the media if they try to weasel their way out of this.


    May the Hawks Fly Forever. Lightning Hawks CC -- Team Thread.

  7. #167
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    Whilst I rate him as a player I have never liked him as a person and these recent incidents have increased my hate for him. Absolutely disgusting behaviour to mock a disabled child. Also the thug like behaviour was totally uncalled for. He would be lucky to escape a prison sentence.
    Last edited by hadi123; 30th September 2017 at 13:03.

  8. #168
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    Without Stokes England have no chance, says Chappell

    SYDNEY: Former Australia captain Ian Chappell believes England ‘haven’t got a hope in hell’ of winning the Ashes if all-rounder Ben Stokes is sidelined following a street brawl outside a Bristol nightclub.

    Stokes, vice-captain of the Test side, was named in England’s 16-man squad for the Ashes tour starting in November but was suspended on Thursday until further investigation into the incident.

    “They can’t win without him [Stokes] for a number of reasons,” Chappell told Sydney’s Daily Telegraph on Friday. “Obviously his ability is the main thing, but also, he’s a match-winning player and those sorts of players drag the rest along with them and make them better.

    “He’s probably one of those players inspired by playing against the better teams and again that has a flow on effect to the fellas that don’t have that sort of confidence. I don’t think they’ve got a hope in hell without him.”

    While the Australian side may consider the suspension of Stokes a significant boost to their chances, former captain Allan Border believes the five-match Test series would be spoiled without the firebrand all-rounder.

    “He is one of those cricketers you would go to watch play,” Border said. “He’s just got something about him, the aggressive nature of his cricket is exciting and it would be a real blow if he doesn’t come.”

    Former England captain Michael Vaughan said whatever the outcome of the case, Stokes has let himself down.

    “I am all for players having a bit of downtime,” Vaughan told the BBC. “In the world of cricket, with the players travelling all the time, you do need a bit of downtime, but he [Stokes] has to look himself in the mirror.

    “He can have as many talks from the England management, from his wife and his agent, but he has got to understand now what he’s doing and what he’s been involved in the last few days,” Vaughan added. “I just don’t understand why he would want to be in a bar at 2:30 in the morning on the Monday, before a game on the Wednesday. He is putting himself in a place where he is a target. He is a very famous person these days.”

    Stokes has been a match-winning figure for the England side since making his debut against Australia in 2013-14. In 39 Tests, he has scored 2,429 runs and picked up 95 wickets.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1360838/wi...-says-chappell


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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Only one person had the bottle, the guy that Stokes punched to the ground did not use a weapon and did not threaten Stokes.
    That will be up for debate by counsel. Defence will paint them as an aggressive group who Stokes cannot be expected to assess individually- merely that they had been under attack by a group with a weapon. Prosecution will push the other line. I don't care either way, I'm just outlining the best defence & likely arguments. Jury will decide.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricFan2012 View Post
    well there goes the test series.

    Roy can easily replace hales, but they will miss stokes' presence in the ODIs.

    This is really awful, the whole event, plus we almost had a delicious ashes in our hands, englands best ODI line up vs australias best pace attack
    England were set to lose 0-3, or 1-3 if they play well somewhere, but without Stokes it becomes 0-4 or 0-5.

  11. #171
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    KP should destroy them in the media if they try to weasel their way out of this.
    Reeks of double standards, doesn't it? I suppose the ECB will rationalize things this way: Stokes is only a disruptive influence outside the dressing room, whilst KP was a disruptive influence inside of it.

    (Not that I buy the idea that KP was disruptive. I think the other guys mercilessly teased him and bullied him because of his vanity).

  12. #172
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    That video shows Stokes as brutal.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    Better bring back KP then.

    KP should destroy them in the media if they try to weasel their way out of this.
    I'm sure they are quaking in their boots.

  14. #174
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    Stokes is liked by a lot of the English media, if it was other players in this situation the reaction would be a lot worse.



  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I'm sure they are quaking in their boots.


    There are long-term repercussions when one employee is treated differently to others especially in team settings.

    1) You Create An "Every Man For Himself" Attitude Among Employees
    2) You Appear To Accept Poor Behavior Based On Skill/Age/Talent (Ask a PAK fan how that works out!)
    3) Your Established Standards Mean Nothing (Looking at You Strauss)
    4) And It's A PR Disaster (i.e. ECB Accepts Violence)

    If KP adds to this, yes, they will be quaking in their boots.

    He holds enough sway in the media and it will snowball out of control.


    May the Hawks Fly Forever. Lightning Hawks CC -- Team Thread.

  16. #176
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    Stokes’ alleged victim a former soldier, says paper

    LONDON: The man allegedly punched by England cricket team vice-captain Ben Stokes is a former British Army soldier who served in Afghanistan, the Daily Telegraph revealed.

    Stokes is being investigated over accusations of causing actual bodily harm following an incident outside a night club in the early hours of Monday morning in the southwest city of Bristol.

    The 26-year-old — who was suspended by England along with team-mate Alex Hales on Thursday, a day after video footage of the incident was published by the Sun newspaper — is accused of punching Ryan Hale, also 26.

    Hale’s mother — with whom he lives — told the Daily Telegraph her son is not an ‘aggressive type’ adding that the former soldier “is not OK and it is not something that happens on a daily basis”.

    The ramifications for Stokes’s fellow England players and their social activities have seen Test captain Joe Root and leading pace bowler Stuart Broad cancel going on the Amsterdam stag party of one-day side wicket-keeper Jos Buttler.

    Their decision came after former England captain and now director of cricket Andrew Strauss cautioned players over their behaviour off the pitch.

    “Strauss read them the riot act and said any misdemeanours just would not be tolerated so Root and Broad have sensibly decided to stay away,” a source close to the England team told the Daily Telegraph.

    Police had appealed on Friday for two ‘specificwitnesses (both men)’ to come forward with their information.

    Hales — who played the last of his 11 Tests for England last year but is a regular in the One-day International side — is expected to be questioned by police next week over allegations the Nottinghamshire opening batsman kicked a man during the fracas.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1361054/st...ier-says-paper


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  17. #177
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    Garbage player and garbage human being. I loved it when this loser was smashed for four sixes by remember the name and he single handedly lost England the match cried like a child mid over. Also loved it when we smashes 33 off his 3 overs in the Champions trophy mauling of his side.

  18. #178
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    Hopefully this makes the Aussies complacent and we can surprise them in the Test matches, like our “can’t bat, can’t bowl, can’t field” team in the late 80s who ended up coming home with the Ashes.

    We would retain the Ashes with a drawn series and even that looks like a miracle at the moment.

    My prediction for this one has always been (and will stay as) 4-1 to Australia, but I refuse to give up hope before a ball has been bowled.

  19. #179
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    An ex-soldier being hit like that will not go down well with those involved in this case.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    An ex-soldier being hit like that will not go down well with those involved in this case.
    Conversely it will also make the soldier vulnerable to cross-examination when it goes to trial. Soldiers are supposed to behave in the utmost responsible manner and never discriminate on any basis, including sexual orientation. So given that there may be a homophobic dimension to this case, if Stokes' defence lawyer manages to paint his victim as an ignoramus then it will really help out Stokes.

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Conversely it will also make the soldier vulnerable to cross-examination when it goes to trial. Soldiers are supposed to behave in the utmost responsible manner and never discriminate on any basis, including sexual orientation. So given that there may be a homophobic dimension to this case, if Stokes' defence lawyer manages to paint his victim as an ignoramus then it will really help out Stokes.
    That's the thing, is the homophobic aspect of this case factual, or was it a way for Stokes and co to dig themselves out of the hole?

    Also no-one knows if the ex-soldier was the one with the bottle, or throwing homophobic insults at the couple either. There's too many questions at this point.

    One thing is for sure though, the person [ex-soldier] was backtracking and had his hands up when Stokes KO'd him. If nothing else the optics of that footage is very negative for Stokes.
    Last edited by Sherlock; 1st October 2017 at 11:42.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  22. #182
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    Look like a couple of cheap shots in there.

    Stokes punching the guy when he had his hands up and was walking back. Hales kicking the guy when he was on the floor.



  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    That's the thing, is the homophobic aspect of this case factual, or was it a way for Stokes and co to dig themselves out of the hole?

    Also no-one knows if the ex-soldier was the one with the bottle, or throwing homophobic insults at the couple either. There's too many questions at this point.

    One thing is for sure though, the person [ex-soldier] was backtracking and had his hands up when Stokes KO'd him. If nothing else the optics of that footage is very negative for Stokes.
    This is why we need a thorough investigation and maybe a trial as well. We need to find out all of the facts in a formal environment.

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Conversely it will also make the soldier vulnerable to cross-examination when it goes to trial. Soldiers are supposed to behave in the utmost responsible manner and never discriminate on any basis, including sexual orientation. So given that there may be a homophobic dimension to this case, if Stokes' defence lawyer manages to paint his victim as an ignoramus then it will really help out Stokes.
    No it won't because the last 10 seconds of that footage isn't defendable by any means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post


    There are long-term repercussions when one employee is treated differently to others especially in team settings.

    1) You Create An "Every Man For Himself" Attitude Among Employees
    2) You Appear To Accept Poor Behavior Based On Skill/Age/Talent (Ask a PAK fan how that works out!)
    3) Your Established Standards Mean Nothing (Looking at You Strauss)
    4) And It's A PR Disaster (i.e. ECB Accepts Violence)

    If KP adds to this, yes, they will be quaking in their boots.

    He holds enough sway in the media and it will snowball out of control.
    He had his moment with that book and all. Nothing happened.

  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    He had his moment with that book and all. Nothing happened.
    Its more than KP though isn't it. KP and his supporters lost the battle but there's multiple people out there who still carry agendas/grudges against Strauss and the current establishment.
    Seemingly treating Stokes leniently would be giving them a target.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  27. #187
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    Guy is a complete tool.

    But people are overlooking ECB's initial response here. Right after this incident came into light (of course minus the video), the ECB gave Stokes a ticket to Australia. It was only after the video evidence surfacing, they were forced to drop Stokes under public pressure. It just tells you that ECB has different set of rules for certain players. They could have simply held up his selection pending enquiry, but they instead tried to sneak him through to Australia, hoping that the heat would soon die down & their star player would get through this as well, just like he previously has.

    It's not new to be hypocritical but than ECB shouldn't talk about morals & ethics. They should simply accept they r nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

    As for those presenting arguments supporting Stokes & Hales, they need to remember that there are people on the other end as well, whose arguments we haven't yet heard. May be what they have to say could be more damning for Mr. Perfect Stokes & his sidekick.

    Just my 3 cents worth.


    The day d last tree died, d last river poisond & d last fish caught,we'll realize we can't eat money

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by style_guru View Post
    Guy is a complete tool.

    But people are overlooking ECB's initial response here. Right after this incident came into light (of course minus the video), the ECB gave Stokes a ticket to Australia. It was only after the video evidence surfacing, they were forced to drop Stokes under public pressure. It just tells you that ECB has different set of rules for certain players. They could have simply held up his selection pending enquiry, but they instead tried to sneak him through to Australia, hoping that the heat would soon die down & their star player would get through this as well, just like he previously has.

    It's not new to be hypocritical but than ECB shouldn't talk about morals & ethics. They should simply accept they r nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

    As for those presenting arguments supporting Stokes & Hales, they need to remember that there are people on the other end as well, whose arguments we haven't yet heard. May be what they have to say could be more damning for Mr. Perfect Stokes & his sidekick.

    Just my 3 cents worth.
    This isn't surprising, the Windian greats who toured SA for rebel tours were discarded like anything. Their English counterparts were welcome back with both arms wide open.

    The same goes for KP/Cook as one was apparently more English, or pro establishment, than the other!

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Its more than KP though isn't it. KP and his supporters lost the battle but there's multiple people out there who still carry agendas/grudges against Strauss and the current establishment.
    Seemingly treating Stokes leniently would be giving them a target.

    "It" isn't about KP at all. So what if "multiple people" - whoever they are - have a target? Nothing will happen. The only way that Strauss comes under pressure is prolonged England failure, and they won five of their last seven tests and fourteen of their last sixteen ODIs.

    I offer a more parsimonious thought: that "the establishment" - another ill-defined group - are furious with Stokes for letting them down after they showed faith by promoted him to vice-captain. He may never play for England again.

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    This isn't surprising, the Windian greats who toured SA for rebel tours were discarded like anything. Their English counterparts were welcome back with both arms wide open.

    The same goes for KP/Cook as one was apparently more English, or pro establishment, than the other!
    This is not accurate.

    Their English counterparts all served three year bans. Just four of them played for England again: Gooch, Willey, Emburey, and Lever (once).

    At least one Caribbean rebel played for WI again.

  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by style_guru View Post
    Guy is a complete tool.

    But people are overlooking ECB's initial response here. Right after this incident came into light (of course minus the video), the ECB gave Stokes a ticket to Australia. It was only after the video evidence surfacing, they were forced to drop Stokes under public pressure. It just tells you that ECB has different set of rules for certain players. They could have simply held up his selection pending enquiry, but they instead tried to sneak him through to Australia, hoping that the heat would soon die down & their star player would get through this as well, just like he previously has.

    It's not new to be hypocritical but than ECB shouldn't talk about morals & ethics. They should simply accept they r nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

    As for those presenting arguments supporting Stokes & Hales, they need to remember that there are people on the other end as well, whose arguments we haven't yet heard. May be what they have to say could be more damning for Mr. Perfect Stokes & his sidekick.

    Just my 3 cents worth.
    Why, which other England player was arrested for assault? Who are you comparing the Stokes case to, specifically? How did the ECB treat that player differently?

  32. #192
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    A lot of people saying that Ben Stokes should have the same fate as KP. I personally don't believe that this is double standards from ECB. Don't get me wrong, what Stokes done was even worse than the things Kevin Pietersen done as you can be prosecuted for that type of violence. However, ECB were right to drop KP as no player, especially an experienced one, should be texting derogatory comments about their team mates let alone captain. That is bad from a cricketing point of view as it can really split the dressing room and reduce team morale which can translate to bad performance.

    Stokes + Hales' case is a little bit different. What they done was a crime but from a cricketing point of view is not as bad as what KP done. It is simply bad from a PR view to have criminals in your team which is why they have eventually been dropped despite Stokes' being selected for the Ashes originally as it sends a bad image but I don't think that ECB's stance has been different simply because Stokes is a young player who could have a great career whereas Pietersen was approaching the end of his career anyway. I think that Stokes & Hales would have the exact same treatment if he had done what KP had done but it is impossible to tell as their offences were completely different.

  33. #193
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    BBC correspondent saying this case could take "several months" and if that's the case Stokes is unlikely to go to Australia, or play anytime soon.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  34. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    BBC correspondent saying this case could take "several months" and if that's the case Stokes is unlikely to go to Australia, or play anytime soon.
    Wonder if he'll get a central contract - announcement to be made tomorrow.

  35. #195
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    Stokes will get a central contract, but his is bound to contain a clause. I think KP's did as well.

    ECB will still be optimistic of helping Stokes to get away with this, by whatever means necessary.

  36. #196
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    I can't think that the police will decide whether or not to charge him before the start of the Ashes Tour, so I guess he's out.

  37. #197
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    Ben Stokes to be given England central contract despite Bristol arrest

    The England & Wales Cricket Board is poised to show its support for Ben Stokes by offering him a central contract on Friday.

    Stokes will be one of about 10 players offered the top earning central contract by the ECB. The announcement has been delayed for 48 hours due to minor tinkering over the terms and conditions of the contracts covering off-field behaviour in the light of Stokes’s arrest last week.

    Alex Hales, who has been interviewed by police for his part in the incident, will keep his incremental contract, the next level down from Stokes.

    Stokes, who gets married later this month, has kept a low profile since his arrest and not been seen in public.

    The ECB does not want him to slip out of contract and recognise it has to support him while the judicial process is ongoing.

    He is still waiting to learn if he will be charged by police for his part in a street fight in Bristol last week. The ECB has suspended him indefinitely while the police investigation is underway. His Ashes hopes rest on the pace of the police investigation and the severity of any charges they may bring.

    England leave for Australia on Oct 28 and need clarity quickly on whether their allrounder will be available for any of the trip.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2...ristol-arrest/
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 5th October 2017 at 11:23.

  38. #198
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    Hales was kicking they guy on the head when Stokes was giving the fella multiple punches, the police have to charge otherwise this is ok to do on the street.

  39. #199
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    Looks like their central ECB contracts will be renewed.

  40. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Looks like their central ECB contracts will be renewed.
    I'd imagine there would be clauses if there is gaol time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    I'd imagine there would be clauses if there is gaol time.
    Sure. One can't claim wages in prison.

  42. #202
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    Looks like Hales will not face charges.

  43. #203
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    are they taking the mick, the guy was literally kicking the guy on the head while stokes was pounding him...

    He has to be charged, otherwise this sets a precedence its ok to kick a guy on the floor..

  44. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic_Inzi View Post
    are they taking the mick, the guy was literally kicking the guy on the head while stokes was pounding him...

    He has to be charged, otherwise this sets a precedence its ok to kick a guy on the floor..
    Don't mix up civil law with criminal law. Precedence does not exist in criminal law in England & Wales.

  45. #205
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    stokes is now officially dropped from ashes squad

  46. #206
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    Hales not being charged, is rather baffling, tbh.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Hales not being charged, is rather baffling, tbh.
    Being part of the establishment or one of the elite sportsmen in the country has it's advantages

    Before anyone says that this is the UK not South Asia, you'd be naive to think that the top 1% don't get preferential treatment, even if it's in the west!

  48. #208
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    Alex Hales comes from the leafy end of Nottingham, and is best mates with Stuart Broad who is the son of Chris Broad who is an ICC match referee, chairman of The Broad Appeal and has a lot of influential friends, and etc... you get the picture. One of my close friends knows these families very well - they come from an affluent bubble-like background of back-scratching, fraternal societies and private schooling.

    In contrast a troublemaking ginger Northern lad from the failing, bailed-out Durham CCC, born of New Zealand immigrants - Ben Stokes - is a lot less likely to get preferential treatment from the English establishment.

  49. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Alex Hales comes from the leafy end of Nottingham, and is best mates with Stuart Broad who is the son of Chris Broad who is an ICC match referee, chairman of The Broad Appeal and has a lot of influential friends, and etc... you get the picture. One of my close friends knows these families very well - they come from an affluent bubble-like background of back-scratching, fraternal societies and private schooling.

    In contrast a troublemaking ginger Northern lad from the failing, bailed-out Durham CCC, born of New Zealand immigrants - Ben Stokes - is a lot less likely to get preferential treatment from the English establishment.
    Surely that shouldn't have any bearing on a matter of criminal/civil law?

    Well, it shouldn't anyway.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  50. #210
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    Why its so big deal people fighting outside pubs? happen everyday in India,rarely cases goes to Police ;))

    I guess only because celebrities involved this get much coverage otherwise no one bothers with such things.

  51. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Surely that shouldn't have any bearing on a matter of criminal/civil law?

    Well, it shouldn't anyway.
    Shouldn’t, but does.

  52. #212
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    It would be tragic if Hales gets out clean despite being an offender while Stokes suffer.

    Stokes controversies may go against him however, What an idiot!

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Surely that shouldn't have any bearing on a matter of criminal/civil law?

    Well, it shouldn't anyway.
    Only in terms of the quality of legal representation Stokes and Hales can afford - the former considerably more.

    You don't get let off a serious violent offence because your uncle plays golf with the Chief Constable. That would open Officers up to charges of bias from their own anti corruption squad.

  54. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    Hales not being charged, is rather baffling, tbh.
    He was never arrested or put on bail. He gave a statement to help the police. I assume the police thought he had no role and now dont want to look bad by arresting him.

    Stokes was arrested so will be charged.


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  55. #215
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    Not being charged shouldn't mean he can't be charged. He was seen kicking someone in the head, the HEAD. If that ain't enough to be charged then there's something wrong with our legal system.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  56. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Don't mix up civil law with criminal law. Precedence does not exist in criminal law in England & Wales.
    This is so wrong it is laughable. Of course legal precedent exists in criminal law.

    In any case it look's like the poster was using the word "precedence" according to its ordinary meaning rather than in a legal sense.

  57. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    This is so wrong it is laughable. Of course legal precedent exists in criminal law.

    In any case it look's like the poster was using the word "precedence" according to its ordinary meaning rather than in a legal sense.
    What @Robert is saying is that the criminal courts in England & Wales view each alleged offence and each defendant as absolutely unique. Every situation and every person has different circumstances attached to what they are alleged to have done. It is an ultra-democratic system wherein everyone's view is heard and taken seriously. Sure there are sentencing guidelines based on the current agreed body of law, but in a judge's closing statement you would never hear words to the effect "for purposes of consistency due to a case heard several years ago..." because they are not allowed to do that. This is where criminal law differs to civil law.

  58. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    This is so wrong it is laughable. Of course legal precedent exists in criminal law.

    In any case it look's like the poster was using the word "precedence" according to its ordinary meaning rather than in a legal sense.
    Precedence exists as a principle in case law, not criminal law. Magistrates and Crown Court judges do not look back to County or High Court cases from 1928 or whatever as a guiding or binding precedent, they just go by what the statute says. Civil and criminal court systems are completely separate in the UK.

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post

    Stokes was arrested so will be charged.
    I wonder. A lawyer friend tells me that the Sun video has been edited to make Stokes look worse, leaving out the buildup to the incident. If so, the edited video has been in the public domain and so will prejudice a jury - everyone has an opinion on it - in which case the CPS may decide that the video is inadmissible as evidence.

    So a prosecution would not succeed in court and Stokes will not be charged.

  60. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I wonder. A lawyer friend tells me that the Sun video has been edited to make Stokes look worse, leaving out the buildup to the incident. If so, the edited video has been in the public domain and so will prejudice a jury - everyone has an opinion on it - in which case the CPS may decide that the video is inadmissible as evidence.

    So a prosecution would not succeed in court and Stokes will not be charged.
    The police would have the full footage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  61. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    What @Robert is saying is that the criminal courts in England & Wales view each alleged offence and each defendant as absolutely unique. Every situation and every person has different circumstances attached to what they are alleged to have done.
    The criminal courts in England & Wales view each alleged offence and each defendant as absolutely unique. Every situation and every person has different circumstances attached to what they are alleged to have done.
    You are confusing two different things. When there is a criminal trial there are "points of fact" and there are "points of law." In basic terms, the former is fact-specific and is "unique" to the case. It is a question of "did X happen?" and such questions are for the jury to decide after having heard submissions from both sides.

    "Points of law" on the other hand are decided by the judge. Where there is a point of law to discuss the jury is asked to leave the room and submissions are made by both parties to the judge. At this point they do rely on case law and judges are bound by the principles established by case law.

    Appeals in criminal law can only be on points of law, not points of fact. That's to say you can't simply appeal because you disagree with the jury's finding of fact but you can appeal if there has been an error in law. That could because the judge misapplied the law, gave incorrect directions to the jury, misinterpreted the law, or it could just be the law is unclear etc. Such appeals are only possible precisely because there is a canon of case law to rely on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Precedence exists as a principle in case law, not criminal law. Magistrates and Crown Court judges do not look back to County or High Court cases from 1928 or whatever as a guiding or binding precedent, they just go by what the statute says. Civil and criminal court systems are completely separate in the UK.
    Precedence exists as a principle in case law, not criminal law.
    Case law simply refers to the principles/rules established in previous legal cases. There is case law in criminal law. Just go to any legal library and you will find some. Don't forget some criminal offences aren't found in statute and are in fact common law offences. If there wasn't any case law, how could that be?

    It is an ultra-democratic system wherein everyone's view is heard and taken seriously.
    The courts are not "ultra-democratic" and nor should they be. Do not conflate rule of law and procedural fairness with democracy.

  62. #222
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    Back to the matter at hand, the decision to prosecute or not is in fact governed by the CPS's Prosecution Policy and Guidance which is a whole other kettle of fish.

    But it is wrong for anyone to say there is no precedence in criminal law, which is why I commented. As I have already said, Robert's initial post was based on (what I believe to be) a misinterpretation of Majestic Inzi's use of the word "precedence", as Majestic Inzi's seemed to be using the word according to it its ordinary meaning rather than in a legal sense.

  63. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    You are confusing two different things. When there is a criminal trial there are "points of fact" and there are "points of law." In basic terms, the former is fact-specific and is "unique" to the case. It is a question of "did X happen?" and such questions are for the jury to decide after having heard submissions from both sides.

    "Points of law" on the other hand are decided by the judge. Where there is a point of law to discuss the jury is asked to leave the room and submissions are made by both parties to the judge. At this point they do rely on case law and judges are bound by the principles established by case law.

    Appeals in criminal law can only be on points of law, not points of fact. That's to say you can't simply appeal because you disagree with the jury's finding of fact but you can appeal if there has been an error in law. That could because the judge misapplied the law, gave incorrect directions to the jury, misinterpreted the law, or it could just be the law is unclear etc. Such appeals are only possible precisely because there is a canon of case law to rely on.

    Case law simply refers to the principles/rules established in previous legal cases. There is case law in criminal law. Just go to any legal library and you will find some. Don't forget some criminal offences aren't found in statute and are in fact common law offences. If there wasn't any case law, how could that be?
    .
    Yes, murder is a common law crime because it dates before government legislation, though it is tried in the criminal court. So precedency can apply.

    Perhaps I misused the word statute. I meant legislation passed by Parliament such as the Health and Safety at Work Act, to which precedent does not apply, though common law cases informed the framing of it.

  64. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yes, murder is a common law crime because it dates before government legislation, though it is tried in the criminal court. So precedency can apply.

    Perhaps I misused the word statute. I meant legislation passed by Parliament such as the Health and Safety at Work Act, to which precedent does not apply, though common law cases informed the framing of it.
    Of course it is tried in a criminal court, because the common law is just as much a source of law as statutes are.

    Your use of the word statute is correct, but your understanding of how the UK legal system works is wrong. Precedent does apply to all statutes, including the HSW. That is how every single common law legal system works. Subsequent cases which relate to that statute form part of the case law and the important cases will establish principles/rules to be applied in similar circumstances. The reason for this is that statutes by definition are incomplete- it is impossible for Parliament to cover every eventuality, nor is possible (or even wise) for them to try and define everything. That's for the courts to do, through their decisions relating to that statute.

    Judges are more likely to be loyal to the ordinary meaning of the statute if the Act was recently passed, but as time goes on the case law will change and broaden/narrow the scope of the statute to reflect (i) new situations (ii) subsequent statutes (iii) rule of law considerations etc.

    Hope that is clear.

  65. #225
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    'Get stuck into' Ben Stokes, Mitchell Starc tells Australia fans

    Fast bowler Mitchell Starc has called on Australian fans to "get stuck into" England's Ben Stokes if he makes the trip for the Ashes series.

    Stokes was arrested last month on suspicion of causing actual bodily harm, and is suspended from England selection until further notice with a police investigation ongoing.

    The 26-year-old, who was released without charge, has been included in the Ashes squad but will not travel with the rest of the squad to Australia on October 28.

    The ECB announced they have still not yet made a final decision on his involvement in the upcoming series.

    Aussie bowler Starc said: "I guess I'd love if he was out here. I'd love for the Australian crowd to get stuck into him the way the Poms (English) get stuck into our blokes over there.

    "Regardless of whether he's here or not, I think the atmosphere is going to be great at all the grounds.

    "I'm really looking forward to that atmosphere and if Ben is playing I'm sure it's going to be hyped up and really loud. But I'm sure Ben knows how to cope with that sort of stuff if he does play."

    Stokes' absence would be a huge blow for England, who have lost two out of their past three tours Down Under 5-0 and are desperate to hit the ground running in the first Test in Brisbane on November 23.

    Starc is encouraging crowds in Australia to give the tourists a hostile welcome with or without Stokes, believing it can make a big difference.

    "Why not? Go for it. The Aussie boys will be backing you all the way in," he added.

    "On certain people I think it can (affect their performance).

    "For certain guys, if they're copping it in the crowd they enjoy the banter, they give it back and really enjoy that atmosphere and that banter both ways with the crowd.

    "Other guys will go into their shell and it might affect their cricket."

    http://www.skysports.com/cricket/new...australia-fans

  66. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by mak36 View Post
    Of course it is tried in a criminal court, because the common law is just as much a source of law as statutes are.

    Your use of the word statute is correct, but your understanding of how the UK legal system works is wrong. Precedent does apply to all statutes, including the HSW. That is how every single common law legal system works. Subsequent cases which relate to that statute form part of the case law and the important cases will establish principles/rules to be applied in similar circumstances. The reason for this is that statutes by definition are incomplete- it is impossible for Parliament to cover every eventuality, nor is possible (or even wise) for them to try and define everything. That's for the courts to do, through their decisions relating to that statute.

    Judges are more likely to be loyal to the ordinary meaning of the statute if the Act was recently passed, but as time goes on the case law will change and broaden/narrow the scope of the statute to reflect (i) new situations (ii) subsequent statutes (iii) rule of law considerations etc.

    Hope that is clear.
    It's not what I was taught when studying to be a H&S professional.

  67. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by giri26 View Post
    Fast bowler Mitchell Starc has called on Australian fans to "get stuck into" England's Ben Stokes if he makes the trip for the Ashes series.

    Stokes was arrested last month on suspicion of causing actual bodily harm, and is suspended from England selection until further notice with a police investigation ongoing.

    The 26-year-old, who was released without charge, has been included in the Ashes squad but will not travel with the rest of the squad to Australia on October 28.

    The ECB announced they have still not yet made a final decision on his involvement in the upcoming series.

    Aussie bowler Starc said: "I guess I'd love if he was out here. I'd love for the Australian crowd to get stuck into him the way the Poms (English) get stuck into our blokes over there.

    "Regardless of whether he's here or not, I think the atmosphere is going to be great at all the grounds.

    "I'm really looking forward to that atmosphere and if Ben is playing I'm sure it's going to be hyped up and really loud. But I'm sure Ben knows how to cope with that sort of stuff if he does play."

    Stokes' absence would be a huge blow for England, who have lost two out of their past three tours Down Under 5-0 and are desperate to hit the ground running in the first Test in Brisbane on November 23.

    Starc is encouraging crowds in Australia to give the tourists a hostile welcome with or without Stokes, believing it can make a big difference.

    "Why not? Go for it. The Aussie boys will be backing you all the way in," he added.

    "On certain people I think it can (affect their performance).

    "For certain guys, if they're copping it in the crowd they enjoy the banter, they give it back and really enjoy that atmosphere and that banter both ways with the crowd.

    "Other guys will go into their shell and it might affect their cricket."

    http://www.skysports.com/cricket/new...australia-fans
    This will get ugly really fast considering the people they have down under. Of course we have idiots everywhere but just egging them on is why there's a certain DJT in the white house!

    Stokes should be punished for whatever he;s done or whenever he's found guilty, bringing that up in the middle of a series, by an opposition player or the crowd is just out of order^2
    Last edited by hadi123; 11th October 2017 at 20:13.

  68. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    This will get ugly really fast considering the people they have down under. Of course we have idiots everywhere but just egging them on is why there's a certain DJT in the white house!

    Stokes should be punished for whatever he;s done or whenever he's found guilty, bringing that up in the middle of a series, by an opposition player or the crowd is just out of order^2
    We're not the guys who throw rocks at opposition team buses so I'm not sure what you mean by this.
    Last edited by hadi123; 11th October 2017 at 20:13.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  69. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    We're not the guys who throw rocks at opposition team buses so I'm not sure what you mean by this.
    As opposed to running naked on the field of play, potentially threatening the players?

  70. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    As opposed to running naked on the field of play, potentially threatening the players?
    Years ago now as opposed to yesterday.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  71. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Years ago now as opposed to yesterday.
    How many years would that be, I remember Symonds tackling one during the 2008 CB series.

    Regardless though why would this behavior be acceptable to you or Starc? Whatever Stokes done is none of anyone else's business you;re there to watch a game of cricket not judge someone else's character without knowing 100% what happened that night.

    Even if you did, you are not party to the matter at hand, do any of you judge someone when doing business with them or during a social gathering?

    How is this any different, give them hell ~ yeah right, I guess that's ICC is starting red cards!
    Last edited by R0H1T; 11th October 2017 at 08:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    How many years would that be, I remember Symonds tackling one during the 2008 CB series.

    Regardless though why would this behavior be acceptable to you or Starc? Whatever Stokes done is none of anyone else's business you;re there to watch a game of cricket not judge someone else's character without knowing 100% what happened that night.

    Even if you did, you are not party to the matter at hand, do any of you judge someone when doing business with them or during a social gathering?

    How is this any different, give them hell ~ yeah right, I guess that's ICC is starting red cards!
    All that will happen to Stokes is that he will get roundly booed.

    You're the one drawing perverse links to American elections and what not.

    And as someone who has gotten out drinking before and has has gotten into arguments before when out, yes I do judge those who lash out so violently especially when accidental deaths because of people getting hit and their head hitting the concrete aren't uncommon.
    Last edited by Convict; 11th October 2017 at 08:59.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  73. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    All that will happen to Stokes is that he will get roundly booed.

    You're the one drawing perverse links to American elections and what not.

    And as someone who has gotten out drinking before and has has gotten into arguments before when out, yes I do judge those who lash out so violently especially when accidental deaths because of people getting hit and their head hitting the concrete aren't uncommon.
    That's not what happens & you know it, players don't just get booed.

    Why not, you think dog whistling is fine?

    No one truly knows what happened that night, should Stokes be setting an example ~ absolutely, would punishing him to set an example (by ECB) be the right thing to do ~ possibly. But then would you apply the same logic & treat someone close to you just the way you did with Stokes? If not, 100% of the time & all the time, then you have no business preaching anything to anyone.

    The same goes when dealing with someone i.e. when you can profit from him, no need to deal with anyone who's less than an upstanding citizen.

  74. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    That's not what happens & you know it, players don't just get booed.

    Why not, you think dog whistling is fine?

    No one truly knows what happened that night, should Stokes be setting an example ~ absolutely, would punishing him to set an example (by ECB) be the right thing to do ~ possibly. But then would you apply the same logic & treat someone close to you just the way you did with Stokes? If not, 100% of the time & all the time, then you have no business preaching anything to anyone.

    The same goes when dealing with someone i.e. when you can profit from him, no need to deal with anyone who's less than an upstanding citizen.
    If one of my mates was that violent I'd dissociate myself with them for sure.

    And what would go on beyond players getting booed? Come on tell me.

    It would be no different to what Broad copped last time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  75. #235
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    Ben Stokes has apologised to Katie Price and her son Harvey for a video that appeared to show the England all-rounder imitating a TV appearance made by the disabled youngster.

    TV personality Price had said Stokes' behaviour was "disgusting".

    The video emerged after Stokes was arrested following an incident near a Bristol nightclub in September.

    "I foolishly attempted to copy the clip after I saw it a few times," Stokes, 26, tweeted on Wednesday.

    "I should never have done this and I am so sorry," added the Test vice-captain.

    "It was absolutely not my intention to offend Harvey, Katie or anybody else. I have written to both Harvey and Katie to say sorry and prior to this offered to meet in person at the end of last month with a view to also getting behind their petition about online bullying. I do hope I can put this right."

    This is the first time Stokes has spoken publicly since he was arrested on suspicion of causing actual bodily harm on a night out that followed England's victory over West Indies in the third one-day international.

    The England and Wales Cricket Board has said Stokes will not travel to Australia on 28 October with the rest of the Ashes squad "at this stage".

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/41589080


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  76. #236
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    Ben Stokes: England all-rounder loses New Balance sponsorship

    Ben Stokes has lost his sponsorship with sportswear brand New Balance.

    The England all-rounder was arrested on 26 September on suspicion of causing actual bodily harm following an incident near a Bristol nightclub.

    New Balance said it "does not condone behaviour that does not match our brand culture and values".

    The England and Wales Cricket Board has said Stokes, 26, will not travel to Australia on 28 October with the rest of the Ashes squad "at this stage".

    On Wednesday, the Test vice-captain apologised to TV personality Katie Price and her son Harvey for a video that appeared to show him imitating a TV appearance made by the disabled youngster.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/41590315


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  77. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    If one of my mates was that violent I'd dissociate myself with them for sure.

    And what would go on beyond players getting booed? Come on tell me.

    It would be no different to what Broad copped last time.
    Few tinnies be thrown perhaps, Bunnings Snag or two as well......


    See You Space Cowboy....

  78. #238
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    From Stokes' agent Neil Fairbrother:

    Name:  19bde289-4882-4714-a58a-20ad18069120.jpg
Views: 159
Size:  131.5 KB


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  79. #239
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    Some of the biggest names in cricket were in attendance on Saturday as England all-rounder Ben Stokes got married.

    Numerous members of the England squad were at the Church of St Mary the Virgin in East Brent, near Weston-super-Mare in Somerset, to watch Stokes marry Clare Ratcliffe.

    Among the guests at the church were current England Test captain Joe Root, former captain and record-runscorer Alastair Cook, fast bowler Stuart Broad and Durham's Paul Collingwood, a former England all-rounder.

    Guests sang hymns, including Jerusalem, during the 40-minute service and there were loud cheers at the end of the ceremony, before the newly-married couple posed for pictures outside the church.

    The England squad are set to fly to Australia later this month for the Ashes series, but Stokes will not be joining them at that stage.

    The Durham man was named in the squad and may join the party at some point, but is currently suspended pending a police investigation, after he was arrested on suspicion of actual bodily harm last month.

    Stokes was arrested after an incident outside a nightclub in Bristol on September 25.

    Earlier this week, representatives of the all-rounder said he will offer a full explanation of the incident "when the time is right".

    http://www.skysports.com/cricket/new...ng-in-somerset


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  80. #240
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    Police renew Stokes incident witness appeal

    London - English police have called again for two men who they believe are key witnesses to the incident that has placed talismanic England all-rounder Ben Stokes's place on the Ashes tour in jeopardy to come forward.

    The police had already appealed a fortnight ago for the duo to assist them with their investigation into the disturbance outside a nightclub in Bristol late last month which resulted in England vice-captain Stokes being arrested.

    "We're renewing our appeal to trace two men we believe could be key witnesses to a disorder in Bristol in the early hours of Monday, 25 September.

    "A 27-year-old man suffered minor facial injuries in the incident. The men we hope to talk to left Mbargo nightclub on Triangle West at 2.19am and walked in the direction of Queens Road with two other men."

    The police added that alongside one arrest three other men had attended voluntary interviews, one of those being 26-year-old Stokes' England team-mate Alex Hales, who was out with him on the night in question.

    Last week, representatives of Stokes said he would offer a full explanation of the incident "when the time is right".

    Stokes - who got married last week - will not travel to Australia with the rest of the England squad for the Ashes as he waits to learn whether he will face criminal charges but has not been ruled out of the five-Test series, which starts on November 23.

    The England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) will not consider him for selection until further notice as it awaits developments in the ongoing police investigation.

    The player's financial fortunes have also suffered with sports equipment manufacturer New Balance terminating their contract with him last week.

    The company's decision was announced hours after Stokes apologised to British celebrity Katie Price and her disabled son Harvey after a video emerged of Stokes impersonating the pair.

    Stokes, who is also subject to internal disciplinary action, has had his central contract renewed by the ECB since his arrest.

    http://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/pol...ppeal-20171017


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