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  1. #1
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    The right to keep and bear arms

    There are only a few countries which give it's citizens the right to keep and bear arms under their constitution. Others have laws which allow gun ownership but these laws can be changed as they are not a constitutional right.

    11,656 gun-related deaths in the United States in 2017. Among the dead were 545 children.

    In Switzerland there are 46 guns per 100 people but a low rate of gun related crime. But Leibacher in 2001 shot dead 14 people and turned the gun on himself.

    Allowing guns to be lawful always has the risk of mass shootings but with violent crime still high, should EVERYONE have the right to keep and bear arms?

    Would you like to be able to keep guns in your house legally and are ok with everyone else doing the same?

    Or would you prefer no guns in society?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    The only guys who should need and use guns are high-ranking policemen and the military.

    Anybody else can be given a tazer gun on a needs must basis, but he should still be a figure of authority - not a commoner.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The only guys who should need and use guns are high-ranking policemen and the military.

    Anybody else can be given a tazer gun on a needs must basis, but he should still be a figure of authority - not a commoner.
    What if you lived in a dangerous area such some parts of Chicago or perhaps some areas of Mexico, Yemen etc? Would you not want to have the capability to defend yourself? Criminal gangs aren't going to be carrying tazer guns, so why should you?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    What if you lived in a dangerous area such some parts of Chicago or perhaps some areas of Mexico, Yemen etc? Would you not want to have the capability to defend yourself? Criminal gangs aren't going to be carrying tazer guns, so why should you?
    If I then have a gun it'll be a dog eat dog world like the USA of today.

    Ideally, there should be a massive clampdown on such weapons that even gangs will find it hard pressed to get hold of a gun.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    If I then have a gun it'll be a dog eat dog world like the USA of today.

    Ideally, there should be a massive clampdown on such weapons that even gangs will find it hard pressed to get hold of a gun.
    So you still would rather not have a gun even though you live in an area where crime is rife and gun violence is high?

    I believe in the ruling government cannot control crime, I have should have the right to keep a gun in my house to defend myself.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    So you still would rather not have a gun even though you live in an area where crime is rife and gun violence is high?

    I believe in the ruling government cannot control crime, I have should have the right to keep a gun in my house to defend myself.
    By extension, you should have no issues with nightly news reports of guns needlessly taking down innocents in various parts of the country. It's inevitable.

    If somebody has a gun and you absolutely need another gun to defend yourself, you're in a soup anyway.
    Last edited by Varun; 7th October 2017 at 18:44.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    By extension, you should have no issues with nightly news reports of guns needlessly taking down innocents in various parts of the country. It's inevitable.

    If somebody has a gun and you absolutely need another gun to defend yourself, you're in a soup anyway.
    This would be the scenario for me wanting to keep a gun. If there was no or little crime such as Switzerland, then I would want a total ban on guns.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  8. #8
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    There is a big misconception held by many Americans about the Second Amendment.

    It did not pertain to an individual right to own a gun until when the Supreme Court said there was in its decision in the 2008 District of Columbia v Heller case. That was after years of intense lobbying by the gun manufacturers, who see their sales skyrocket after every mass shooting, who bankrolled politicians and scholars to change the interpretation of the Constitution.

    At the time the Second Amendment was written, America had no standing army but 13 separate state militias. There was a great suspicion of standing armies after the colonial experience under the British. It was also to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states. The Founding Fathers also could never have foreseen how lethal these guns would become as technology advanced. Its a complete anachronism.

    The situation has become so crazy that Senate Republicans even opposed a ban in Dec 2015 on the sale of guns to those on the terrorist watchlist ! That's how much these corrupt Republicans (and some Democrats) are in the pockets of the NRA.
    Last edited by Markhor; 7th October 2017 at 19:13.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    There is a big misconception held by many Americans about the Second Amendment.

    It did not pertain to an individual right to own a gun until when the Supreme Court said there was in its decision in the 2008 District of Columbia v Heller case. That was after years of intense lobbying by the gun manufacturers, who see their sales skyrocket after every mass shooting, who bankrolled politicians and scholars to change the interpretation of the Constitution.

    At the time the Second Amendment was written, America had no standing army but 13 separate state militias. There was a great suspicion of standing armies after the colonial experience under the British. It was also to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states. The Founding Fathers also could never have foreseen how lethal these guns would become as technology advanced. Its a complete anachronism.

    The situation has become so crazy that Senate Republicans even opposed a ban in Dec 2015 on the sale of guns to those on the terrorist watchlist ! That's how much these corrupt Republicans (and some Democrats) are in the pockets of the NRA.
    So basically the NRA own the republic party when it comes to policy on guns?

    What is your personal view in general do you feel this is a human right?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    So basically the NRA own the republic party when it comes to policy on guns?

    What is your personal view in general do you feel this is a human right?
    The Republican Party is the political wing of not just the NRA, but big business and multinational corporations.

    I find it abhorrent - if people want to keep a handgun in their homes for self-defence that's fine but there's no need for civilians to be accessing semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

    Its amusing Second Amendment advocates talk about needing to arm themselves to "protect against government tyranny" as if Hillbilly Joe from Kansas can stop the might of the Federal Government and most powerful army known to man with his collection of rifles. These gun nuts need to live in reality.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    There is a big misconception held by many Americans about the Second Amendment.

    It did not pertain to an individual right to own a gun until when the Supreme Court said there was in its decision in the 2008 District of Columbia v Heller case. That was after years of intense lobbying by the gun manufacturers, who see their sales skyrocket after every mass shooting, who bankrolled politicians and scholars to change the interpretation of the Constitution.

    At the time the Second Amendment was written, America had no standing army but 13 separate state militias. There was a great suspicion of standing armies after the colonial experience under the British. It was also to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states. The Founding Fathers also could never have foreseen how lethal these guns would become as technology advanced. Its a complete anachronism.

    The situation has become so crazy that Senate Republicans even opposed a ban in Dec 2015 on the sale of guns to those on the terrorist watchlist ! That's how much these corrupt Republicans (and some Democrats) are in the pockets of the NRA.
    Impressed by your knowledge of American history



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  12. #12
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    I think Australia had a similar situation to the States in the 90s (albeit to much smaller scale). They had a big gun violence problem too and the government came out with an amnesty scheme in which everybody was asked to hand in their firearms and people carrying unlicensed guns were not prosecuted. The government bought back the weapons at market rate.

    Obviously in the states if the government starts paying for the weapons the bill will go in the billions, but it is for the Americans to decide whether a few billions and the right to bear arms is worth more than the 10-20k lives that are lost every year due to gun violence.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  13. #13
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    Any anti gun law will only take away the guns from the good people, because the bad guys can always arrange guns, law or no law.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Any anti gun law will only take away the guns from the good people, because the bad guys can always arrange guns, law or no law.
    Dude right now in the States you can walk into a Walmart and walk away with a semi-automatic rifle. If weapons become illegal it would make it harder for even criminals to acquire them.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  15. #15
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    I used to exercise my right to bare arms, but then I discovered full-sleeved T-shirts, and have never looked back.


    Silver-tongued seraphim circling the spire...
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  16. #16
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    Switzerland is a bit of a curious one because all males aged 18-55 IIRC are required to be state miliatuamen and issued with a rifle. But they do not have access to ammunition for same except in time of national emergency.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostalgic View Post
    I used to exercise my right to bare arms, but then I discovered full-sleeved T-shirts, and have never looked back.



    You need to post more often


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  18. #18
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    Absolutely bizarre gun regulations in the US.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostalgic View Post
    I used to exercise my right to bare arms, but then I discovered full-sleeved T-shirts, and have never looked back.
    ,rofl,somehow was expecting your post on this as soon as i read the title.


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  20. #20
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    the WW1 and WWII opened the weapon market. USA and their allies keep the weapon market alive by making unnecessary wars and threaten every other nation...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ask_analyse_act View Post
    the WW1 and WWII opened the weapon market. USA and their allies keep the weapon market alive by making unnecessary wars and threaten every other nation...
    The most common weapon is the Russian-made AK-47.

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  23. #23
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    Australia had a mass shooting in the 90s called the Port Arthur massacre in which 36 people were killed.

    After this strict action was taken and all guns were to be brought back to the government to be destroyed on a buy-back scheme.

    Since then there are no mass shootings, and gun violence is very rare other then a few gang violence incidents.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The only guys who should need and use guns are high-ranking policemen and the military.

    Anybody else can be given a tazer gun on a needs must basis, but he should still be a figure of authority - not a commoner.
    You clearly don't have any experience living in some of the dangerous parts of the US.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nostalgic View Post
    I used to exercise my right to bare arms, but then I discovered full-sleeved T-shirts, and have never looked back.
    Reminds me of a Jay-Z lyric from his first album. "Like short sleeves, I bare arms"


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    Only military and police should keep arms. And them too, must pass regular evaluations.

    Common people should never have access to weapons. Even hunting should be monitored.

  27. #27
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    Can someone dig up the law for Karachi I mean are there even any laws for gun control. Growing up I have seen and used a firearm (target practice) very easily without much hassle as well and if you go to a gun shop in Saddar you can very easily buy one too without proper paperwork or anything.

  28. #28
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    All of America should drink some tanda paani and calm down.

    In a society as drug and drink fuelled as the US ,with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, addicted to some from of medication, legal or otherwise and with it being so easy to obtain guns, especially powerful firearms, should be banned. Oturight, no nonsense ban.

  29. #29
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    I think the police should carry guns. In Britain we get this wrong. The police are often less well-armed than the criminals in Britain nowadays, which I think is appalling and embarrassing. One of the cop-killings in England in the 21st century featured the policeman being shot in the back because he was running away from the criminal who was armed with a semi-automatic shotgun. Like I said - totally wrong.

    Personal ownership - for home defence, hunting and leisure - is more complicated in my view. Automatic weapons should be for military only; I also would not allow public ownership of handguns or submachine guns because they are easily concealable and can be carried around.

    Rifles and shotguns however - I think if the background checks are extensive and the potential owner is interviewed and vetted, then there should be general availability of these weapons for public ownership.

    Currently about the best you can do in Britain for home defence is a baseball bat, a set of brass knuckles or a pet dog - I have 2 out of 3 of these, and do I feel 100% safe in my home? Sadly, no.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I think the police should carry guns. In Britain we get this wrong. The police are often less well-armed than the criminals in Britain nowadays, which I think is appalling and embarrassing. One of the cop-killings in England in the 21st century featured the policeman being shot in the back because he was running away from the criminal who was armed with a semi-automatic shotgun. Like I said - totally wrong.

    Personal ownership - for home defence, hunting and leisure - is more complicated in my view. Automatic weapons should be for military only; I also would not allow public ownership of handguns or submachine guns because they are easily concealable and can be carried around.

    Rifles and shotguns however - I think if the background checks are extensive and the potential owner is interviewed and vetted, then there should be general availability of these weapons for public ownership.

    Currently about the best you can do in Britain for home defence is a baseball bat, a set of brass knuckles or a pet dog - I have 2 out of 3 of these, and do I feel 100% safe in my home? Sadly, no.
    Police in britain should have guns? Why?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandapanii View Post
    Police in britain should have guns? Why?
    I gave my reasoning in my original post that you quoted.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I gave my reasoning in my original post that you quoted.
    "In Britain we get this wrong. The police are often less well-armed than the criminals in Britain nowadays, which I think is appalling and embarrassing. One of the cop-killings in England in the 21st century featured the policeman being shot in the back because he was running away from the criminal who was armed with a semi-automatic shotgun. Like I said - totally wrong."

    That's not a reason English sahab, that is a personal opinion.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandapanii View Post
    "In Britain we get this wrong. The police are often less well-armed than the criminals in Britain nowadays, which I think is appalling and embarrassing. One of the cop-killings in England in the 21st century featured the policeman being shot in the back because he was running away from the criminal who was armed with a semi-automatic shotgun. Like I said - totally wrong."

    That's not a reason English sahab, that is a personal opinion.
    It is a reason, the police in Britain dont carry guns and when faced with a villain who is armed then the police have to retreat.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It is a reason, the police in Britain dont carry guns and when faced with a villain who is armed then the police have to retreat.
    The police carry asps and they often face off against villains as you put it, who are also carry hand held weaponry. Guns are not as frequently seen here among criminals. In the rare instance where a gun is involved, in most instances the police call out would have already identified that and an armed unit would be on the way to deal with it.

    So again, on a factual basis, why should regular police carry guns?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandapanii View Post
    The police carry asps and they often face off against villains as you put it, who are also carry hand held weaponry. Guns are not as frequently seen here among criminals. In the rare instance where a gun is involved, in most instances the police call out would have already identified that and an armed unit would be on the way to deal with it.

    So again, on a factual basis, why should regular police carry guns?
    I'm not argueing with you, I have just told you a reason, if you dont accept it then good for you.

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    I live in a quiet area so keeping guns would be pointless. If anything they'd be more of a hazard than protection. I suppose it depends on what sort of neighbourhood you live in. If you are in an area with high crime then I can see why guns would offer a feeling of security.


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    Unfortunately Vegas incident will continue to "inspire" lot more people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post

    Civilians have no business carrying an AR-15.

    Time for US to reinstate the assault weapons ban and introduce federal background checks which even a majority of NRA members support ! I'm sure folks can still go deer hunting without an AR-15.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Civilians have no business carrying an AR-15.

    Time for US to reinstate the assault weapons ban and introduce federal background checks which even a majority of NRA members support ! I'm sure folks can still go deer hunting without an AR-15.
    In my village and the surrounding villages in Pakistan almost all have some kind of firearm and many have the AK-47 and the same goes for many parts of Pakistan but you dont hear of random mindless shootings gunning down multiple people for no reason?

    Are we missing the elephant in the room? American society is one where violence is glorified or do you feel this has little relevance?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    In my village and the surrounding villages in Pakistan almost all have some kind of firearm and many have the AK-47 and the same goes for many parts of Pakistan but you dont hear of random mindless shootings gunning down multiple people for no reason?

    Are we missing the elephant in the room? American society is one where violence is glorified or do you feel this has little relevance?
    Yeah, but people do get killed mercilessly in other ways. Every society is as violent as others. America is first world and every little thing that happens there makes it to the headlines. If something happens in Bihar or Punjab or Balochistan, no one cares.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Yeah, but people do get killed mercilessly in other ways. Every society is as violent as others. America is first world and every little thing that happens there makes it to the headlines. If something happens in Bihar or Punjab or Balochistan, no one cares.
    Sure. I dont know about India but in Pakistan many people have guns. In the US people get killed by many other ways too. The point here is guns being available to a population but some nations seem to have people who use them on innocent people more than others.

    America may be first world but it's arguable if it's civilised.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Sure. I dont know about India but in Pakistan many people have guns. In the US people get killed by many other ways too. The point here is guns being available to a population but some nations seem to have people who use them on innocent people more than others.

    America may be first world but it's arguable if it's civilised.
    Not going to comment about Pakistan, but I can tell you, Americans are lot more civilized when they are outside than Indians in India. I lived among both people to know the clear difference.

    I feel that development seems to be coming at a cost. People are getting alienated from each other. Many live in virtual worlds. Pressure to perform, breaking down of family structure, lopsided laws favoring women are all taking their toll on Americans mental health. Just my observation. Add to this the easy availability of Guns. A recipe for disaster.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Not going to comment about Pakistan, but I can tell you, Americans are lot more civilized when they are outside than Indians in India. I lived among both people to know the clear difference.

    I feel that development seems to be coming at a cost. People are getting alienated from each other. Many live in virtual worlds. Pressure to perform, breaking down of family structure, lopsided laws favoring women are all taking their toll on Americans mental health. Just my observation. Add to this the easy availability of Guns. A recipe for disaster.
    I've started a thread on mental health being used to justify behaviour, please do comment.

    Mabye these people are just 'bad', 'evil' or 'criminal'. ?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    It's more thrilling to just tase people. If I was in law enforcement I know what I would be doing.


    Gangster rap made me do it.

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    You know a white guy did something bad because instead of calling it terrorism a discussion is initiated on gun control and protecting the 2nd amendment.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  48. #48
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    So the Right to Bear Arms deprives a few more dozen of their right to live.

  49. #49
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    Since the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando 17 months ago, there have been 555 mass shootings as the FBI defines them: four or more people shot at once. Approximately 689 people have been killed, and nearly 2,700 wounded.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-ame...***-shootings/


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  50. #50
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  51. #51
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  52. #52
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    Police: Shooter, 2 students dead in shooting at Aztec High School in New Mexico

    AZTEC, N.M. – Authorities say three people are dead including the shooter following a shooting at a New Mexico high school. San Juan County Sheriff Ken Christesen told reporters that three people believed to be students died Thursday at Aztec High School.

    New Mexico Police said via Twitter the shooter was among the the deceased.

    The victims' families were notified "immediately," state police said.

    There were no other injuries reported, state police said.

    It wasn't immediately clear if the shooting happened inside the school or who was suspected of firing the shots.

    San Juan County Sheriff's Lt. Kyle Lincoln told CBS affiliate KRQE that law enforcement are clearing the building and searching the school.

    The New Mexico State Police were taking over the investigation. Federal authorities were also investigating what led to the shooting.

    Other schools in the area also were locked down as a precaution. Authorities say it could be a few hours before the lockdowns are lifted.

    A crowd of nervous parents gathered at Aztec City Hall to wait for more information as officers tried to reassure them about the safety of their children.

    Aztec is a rural community of 6,500 people in the heart of northwestern New Mexico's oil and gas country and near the Navajo Nation. Its main street is lined by old brick buildings that date back more than a century.

    Michael Padilla, a former Aztec school board member, told KRQE the violence is unheard of in their small community.

    "Tragically the horrors that visited many other communities have come to roost here in Aztec," Padilla said.

    Padilla called the scene "chaotic" and said there was a massive law enforcement presence.

    Residents voiced disbelief on social media, while members of the New Mexico congressional delegation, state Attorney General Hector Balderas and other elected officials offered their condolences and other assistance.

    "While details are still coming in, we grieve for the innocent victims in this senseless act of violence. Too many lives have been disrupted and too many futures cut short," U.S. Rep. Ben Ray Lujan said in a tweet.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/aztec-h...live-updating/


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    Friends mourn young sports fans slain in Kentucky school shooting

    (Reuters) - When a teenaged boy opened fire in a Kentucky high school, he claimed the lives of two young, well-liked sports enthusiasts and traumatized a small farming town, where investigators on Wednesday tried to piece together the shooter’s motive.


    Police have not yet identified the 15-year-old gunman in the Tuesday morning attack at Marshall County High School in Benton, Kentucky, about 120 miles (190 km) northwest of Nashville, Tennessee.

    Fourteen other students suffered were wounded, and another four high schoolers suffered non-gunshot wounds in the panic. It was the latest outbreak of gun violence in a nation where school shootings have become frequent.

    The suspect, who police said was arrested without a struggle, was due to appear in court by Thursday.

    Prosecutors intend to ask the court to charge the suspect as an adult, Jason Darnall, an assistant county attorney for Marshall County, told a news conference on Wednesday.

    The youth will be charged with two counts of murder and multiple counts of assault, Darnall said. A grand jury will meet on Feb. 13 and will decide whether to proceed with the case, he said.

    “Until that point everything remains confidential,” Darnall said.

    The slain students were identified by state police as Bailey Holt and Preston Cope, both 15, state police said.

    “Bailey Holt and Preston Cope were two great people,” Marshall County High student Gabbi Bayers said on Facebook. “It hurts knowing we won’t be able to share the laughs anymore.”

    The teens’ enthusiasm for sports was evident from photos shared online by friends. Holt was a fan of the University of Louisville’s Cardinals football team. Cope played Little League baseball for the Calvert City Sluggers, in another small town more than 10 miles (16 km) north of Benton.

    “My thoughts and prayers are with Bailey Holt, Preston Cope, their families, and all of the wounded victims who are in recovery,” President Donald Trump wrote on Twitter on Wednesday, saying he had spoken to Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin.

    Bevin posted a tweet saying that the families whose children were victims “will get through this but it’s going to come at a cost and there will be scars.” He reiterated a call for people not to speculate publicly on the motives behind the shooting.

    The suspect entered a common area in the school on Tuesday, pulled out a handgun and began firing at students, state police said.

    The attack at the school of nearly 1,150 students was the latest eruption of gunfire that has become a regular occurrence at schools and college campuses across the United States over the past several years.

    The injured comprised five female and 13 male students, all 14 to 18 years old.

    Five victims were still receiving care at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville on Wednesday. Hospital officials said four of those were in critical but stable condition. The fifth was in stable condition.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-k...-idUSKBN1FD1XD


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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post

    Wow 18 school shootings... 1800 dead.... They barely made a murmur in the news

  56. #56
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    Mother of slain Florida student screams at Trump live on camera

    Mother Lori Alhadeff lost her daughter Alyssa Wednesday after Nikolas Cruz, a 19-year-old man, killed 17 students at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. In an interview with CNN Thursday she screamed into the camera demanding President Donald Trump do something.

    “How? How do we allow a gunman to come into our children’s school?” Alhadeff asked. “How do they get through security? What security is there? There’s no metal detectors. The gunman, a crazy person, just walks right into the school, knocks on the window of my child’s door and starts shooting, shooting her and killing her!”

    She then turned her anger to the president.

    “President Trump, you say what can you do?” she asked, responding to Trump’s statement earlier. “You can stop the guns from getting into these children’s hands! Put metal detectors at every entrance to the schools. What can you do? You can do a lot! This is not fair to our families and our children go to school and have to get killed! I just spent the last two hours putting the burial arrangements for my daughters funeral, who is 14! Fourteen! President Trump, please do something! Do something. action! We need it now! These kids need now!”

    The cameras cut back to Baldwin, who is in Parkland meeting with families and covering the tragedy. She cast her eyes down and held up her hand, her voice cracking.

    “Sorry, Gary, thank you,” Baldwin said before she paused again. “I’m sorry. It’s just — Congressman [Ted] Deutch, help me out, of Florida here. Just hearing that mother, I’m sorry. It got me.”

    Deutch talked to Baldwin about things that should be done but Baldwin hammered him on what he actually intends to do. Like many Democrats, however, Deutch doesn’t have any power in Congress to go up against the gun lobby.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/02/wat...n-falls-apart/


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  58. #58
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    Here we go, a solution at last!




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  59. #59
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    Oh well that settles it.


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