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  1. #1
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    Preferred pronouns and non-binary gender movement

    Has anyone come across this new movement where organizations and institutions are allowing people to choose their own gender and designated personal pronoun? Apparently we're moving toward a non-binary gender world.

    This is absolute insanity.

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    There were plenty of protests where I live and at my university about this. There's nothing wrong in allowing people to select their own gender. The issue is with forcing other people to use their preferred pronouns and charge them with a hate crime if they don't do that.

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  4. #4
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    Far left garbage.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    This whole controversy is easily avoided by following one basic principle of respect : ask people how they want to be referred as and then refer them as such.
    If someone says they prefer to be called a boy/girl/man/woman/him/her/shim - then do it. How does it affect us, by showing the most basic form of respect to an individual- which is to address them as they want to be addressed ?!

  7. #7
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    I prefer to be identified as a 1999 Toyota Corolla.


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sachin136 View Post
    There were plenty of protests where I live and at my university about this. There's nothing wrong in allowing people to select their own gender. The issue is with forcing other people to use their preferred pronouns and charge them with a hate crime if they don't do that.
    How does that make sense?? Gender is determined by your body, not what you want.


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    I prefer to be identified as a 1999 Toyota Corolla.
    is Toyota Corolla a gender ? religion ?

    If the answer is no, then you are being faceteous.

    There is so much ignorance about sexual orientation and so much backwardness due to religion that people simply cannot accept the fact that if someone is a man who feels that he is a she, or a vice versa, there is no harm in referring them as they feel like.

    Infact, those people are far more courageous than most of us, because they have the guts to expose a personal thing to the world.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    How does that make sense?? Gender is determined by your body, not what you want.
    No. Gender is determined by psychology. Sex is determined by biology. This is what 'chakkas/hijdas' are - biologically male, psychologically a woman.

    There is plenty of scientific evidence that this is the case, so why not accept these people for who they are, instead of forcing them to conform to something they don't fit into ?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    This whole controversy is easily avoided by following one basic principle of respect : ask people how they want to be referred as and then refer them as such.
    If someone says they prefer to be called a boy/girl/man/woman/him/her/shim - then do it. How does it affect us, by showing the most basic form of respect to an individual- which is to address them as they want to be addressed ?!
    People can think of themselves as anything they want. But forcing others to adhere to their demands and be addressed as something that denies basic biology isn't reasonable.

  12. #12
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    Hopefully the preferred gender people dont get to interact with me, as I am only going to call people by what they look like to me.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    People can think of themselves as anything they want. But forcing others to adhere to their demands and be addressed as something that denies basic biology isn't reasonable.
    But that's it- it doesn't deny basic biology, as ultimately, psychology is part of biology via bio-chemistry.
    You are under the false impression that one fine day, a guy wakes up and thinks 'I wanna be called a girl', or vice versa.
    No. There is extensive scientific evidence, that some of us feel like the other gender, as in the way they see themselves.
    Its similar to being gay.
    And there is nothing unnatural about either of these (though cross-gender is impossible to verify if you cannot communicate with said animal directly, homosexuality is a natural thing- its found in tons and tons of species, even in our closest species (the apes).

    So the entire point is, if someone feels like they are a woman but looks like a man (or vice versa), whats the big deal about simply addressing them as they want ?
    This is basic discrimination actually. Think about it- when we meet a guy for the first time and he says ' call me mr smith', do you go ' who the eff are you to force the mr on me, Smithy-boy ?' or do you go 'sure, mr smith' ?
    So if a dude says to you 'call me Ms Sally please', you are denying the same basic courtesy you are according to cis-gendered people.

    Its their identity. And they have as much of a right to it as you have to your concept of Identity- for eg, being muslim or being Pakistani or whatever.

    Again,basic humanity is missing from the whole right-wing argument. Its not a matter of being bleeding heart, it takes a grand total of 2 seconds in most people's lives to address a person as a mr or miss most of the time anyways.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Hopefully the preferred gender people dont get to interact with me, as I am only going to call people by what they look like to me.
    So third-gender does not exist according to you ? Hijdas are just regular you and me dudes having some fun in a Sari ?

  15. #15
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    I only support this if a black person is allowed to "feel" and be treated like a white person when pulled over by cops.

    Or if a brown skinned Muslim is allowed to "feel" and be treated like a white person when going through airport security.

    #racefluid

  16. #16
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    If people can look past their childhood religious/cultural programming and have a decent scientific understanding as well as patience, they can educate themselves here:

    http://www.eulabs.eu/Downloads/gooren06.pdf

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz39 View Post
    I only support this if a black person is allowed to "feel" and be treated like a white person when pulled over by cops.

    Or if a brown skinned Muslim is allowed to "feel" and be treated like a white person when going through airport security.

    #racefluid
    There is no such thing as race biologically speaking. Its a social construct.
    There is gender and sexual orientation.

  18. #18
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    Please don't deny my right to be identified as a privileged white male and impose my #firstworldproblems and their "solutions" on the rest of society.

    I am what I think and feel I am.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz39 View Post
    Please don't deny my right to be identified as a privileged white male and impose my #firstworldproblems and their "solutions" on the rest of society.

    I am what I think and feel I am.
    If it is not in a field that has scientific basis of being genuine, then you don't get to say that.

    You are not a carrot. Or a white person. Or a rock.

    Sexual orientation however, is clinically true and provable as fluid. What you are suggesting, is not.

  20. #20
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    Twenty years ago, there were people who said the same about gender fluidity. And now time has "proven them wrong."

    Race fluid people need a #safespace from the ignorant attacks on their identity in this thread.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz39 View Post
    Twenty years ago, there were people who said the same about gender fluidity. And now time has "proven them wrong."

    Race fluid people need a #safespace from the ignorant attacks on their identity in this thread.
    Prove that race exists as a biological fact first, buddy. Gender and gender-fluidity has already been proven.
    Any reasonable change means that change has to back it up with hard-science. Gender-fluidity and sexual-fluidity have both done it in recent times, so its time for a change.

    If you want racial-fluidity, do the hard work and prove racial fluidity with hard-science.

  22. #22
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    Now let's talk about people who are traumatized by.........trans species.

  23. #23
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    Keep shifting the goal post. Keep making up your own rules.

    PRO-TIP: the two trends below are the upcoming big societal fads so jump on the bandwagon early and become a legendary online social justice warrior.

    #racefluid #trans-species

  24. #24
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    Dont get personal with each other or posts will be deleted.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HussainRx8 View Post
    Has anyone come across this new movement where organizations and institutions are allowing people to choose their own gender and designated personal pronoun? Apparently we're moving toward a non-binary gender world.

    This is absolute insanity.
    Speaking as a Liberal I would say it is up to the individual, not the state or the religion.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by faraz39 View Post
    Keep shifting the goal post. Keep making up your own rules.

    PRO-TIP: the two trends below are the upcoming big societal fads so jump on the bandwagon early and become a legendary online social justice warrior.

    #racefluid #trans-species
    No one is shifting any goal-posts.
    I said substantiate your claim via hard-science, aka biology.

    Sociology is opinions backed without biological evidence in many cases.
    I presented an endocrinologist. THat means biologist.
    Ie, shown biological evidence of gender-fluidity.

    You havnt done so with your position, so try again.

  27. #27
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    Absolute rubbish

    I will call someone of what he or she looks like whether that person is offended or not.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    But that's it- it doesn't deny basic biology, as ultimately, psychology is part of biology via bio-chemistry.
    You are under the false impression that one fine day, a guy wakes up and thinks 'I wanna be called a girl', or vice versa.
    No. There is extensive scientific evidence, that some of us feel like the other gender, as in the way they see themselves.
    Its similar to being gay.
    And there is nothing unnatural about either of these (though cross-gender is impossible to verify if you cannot communicate with said animal directly, homosexuality is a natural thing- its found in tons and tons of species, even in our closest species (the apes).

    So the entire point is, if someone feels like they are a woman but looks like a man (or vice versa), whats the big deal about simply addressing them as they want ?
    This is basic discrimination actually. Think about it- when we meet a guy for the first time and he says ' call me mr smith', do you go ' who the eff are you to force the mr on me, Smithy-boy ?' or do you go 'sure, mr smith' ?
    So if a dude says to you 'call me Ms Sally please', you are denying the same basic courtesy you are according to cis-gendered people.

    Its their identity. And they have as much of a right to it as you have to your concept of Identity- for eg, being muslim or being Pakistani or whatever.

    Again,basic humanity is missing from the whole right-wing argument. Its not a matter of being bleeding heart, it takes a grand total of 2 seconds in most people's lives to address a person as a mr or miss most of the time anyways.
    I see what you mean that no guy wakes up wanting to be a girl and that it is very much a sequential and gradual process. But calling mr.smith mr.smith isn't breaking any biological or social conventions, so its very much different.

    Saying that gender and sex are disconnected doesnt hold up since we dont live in a world where we are judged by only our inward appearance or qualities only. You can identify as a woman from a "gender" poit of view but your outward appearance would still be that of a man. If a grown man decides to identify as a woman, then there are many social implications to it. You can't be a biological man and decide you are a woman and expect that you will be allowed in the little girls room. If little girls see that a man is in the ladies bathroom then that is wrong for a number of reasons.

    Using pronoouns such as them, ze and zer don't achieve anything except provide false reassurances to people who suffer from gender dysphoria that there demands are justified. The transgender community has a 40% suicide rate-the highest suicide rate amongst any minority community. Even after they come out to their friends and family, the suicide rate doesnt go down much. The problem goes much deeper than just pronouns, it's to do with their mental state. I dont know the exact study from which these details are from but i found them out from Ben Shapiro- a famous conservatice political commentator.

  29. #29
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    The end is near.


    "Be the best version of yourself"

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    I prefer to be identified as a 1999 Toyota Corolla.
    Chevy '67 Impala here ye heretic!


    Tazimi Sirdar

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    I see what you mean that no guy wakes up wanting to be a girl and that it is very much a sequential and gradual process. But calling mr.smith mr.smith isn't breaking any biological or social conventions, so its very much different.

    Saying that gender and sex are disconnected doesnt hold up since we dont live in a world where we are judged by only our inward appearance or qualities only. You can identify as a woman from a "gender" poit of view but your outward appearance would still be that of a man. If a grown man decides to identify as a woman, then there are many social implications to it. You can't be a biological man and decide you are a woman and expect that you will be allowed in the little girls room. If little girls see that a man is in the ladies bathroom then that is wrong for a number of reasons.

    Using pronoouns such as them, ze and zer don't achieve anything except provide false reassurances to people who suffer from gender dysphoria that there demands are justified. The transgender community has a 40% suicide rate-the highest suicide rate amongst any minority community. Even after they come out to their friends and family, the suicide rate doesnt go down much. The problem goes much deeper than just pronouns, it's to do with their mental state. I dont know the exact study from which these details are from but i found them out from Ben Shapiro- a famous conservatice political commentator.
    But science has proven that gender and sex are different. Did you read the article from the endocrinologist ? There is a biological difference.
    So the bolded part , is an appeal to ignorance and saying ' yea well, screw facts, we are gonna continue to be ignorant'.

    As per being in girls room or not- that is irrelevant. We from the subcontinent know that whether its India or Pakistan or Bangladesh, millions of people go do their business outdoors instead of a toilet...yet, that is not a problem for little girls being 'traumatized'. But stick them in a washroom and all hell breaks loose ?

    Lastly about suicide rates - its because trans community is one of the most abused communities in the world that their suicide rate is higher.

    The simple rule of thumb is, when hard facts prove something exists, its time to accept that fact. And hard biological facts has proven, that gender-fluidity does exist.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    I see what you mean that no guy wakes up wanting to be a girl and that it is very much a sequential and gradual process. But calling mr.smith mr.smith isn't breaking any biological or social conventions, so its very much different.

    Saying that gender and sex are disconnected doesnt hold up since we dont live in a world where we are judged by only our inward appearance or qualities only. You can identify as a woman from a "gender" poit of view but your outward appearance would still be that of a man. If a grown man decides to identify as a woman, then there are many social implications to it. You can't be a biological man and decide you are a woman and expect that you will be allowed in the little girls room. If little girls see that a man is in the ladies bathroom then that is wrong for a number of reasons.

    Using pronoouns such as them, ze and zer don't achieve anything except provide false reassurances to people who suffer from gender dysphoria that there demands are justified. The transgender community has a 40% suicide rate-the highest suicide rate amongst any minority community. Even after they come out to their friends and family, the suicide rate doesnt go down much. The problem goes much deeper than just pronouns, it's to do with their mental state. I dont know the exact study from which these details are from but i found them out from Ben Shapiro- a famous conservatice political commentator.
    For the bolded part - I missed quoting it earlier.
    Have you ever interacted with a transgender person ? Your post makes it clear you have not.
    I've always found it deeply unsettling how people form knee-jerk opinions on things without actually investigating them- its the part of the cultural/religious brainwashing problem and intellectual laziness.

    How can you, in one post, say 'I see what you mean that no guy wakes up wanting to be a girl' and then say ' if a grown man deciedes you are a woman' ?! Its not a decision. Its acknowledgement of reality, a quantifiable feeling backed up by distinct biology of the brain and the endocrine system. Clinically proven.

    The implications socially is that our binary and ignorant view on sexuality has to change in lieu of scientific facts.
    Ten years ago, I used to be like you - till I decieded to follow the axiom of 'always investigate first and gain first hand experience of said topic'.
    I suggest you go find a transgender person to talk to and it will be quite eye-opening.

    As per little girls seeing men in ladies room or little boys seeing women in men's room - I have a far bigger problem with seeing little girls clad in Burqa or burlesque costumes than this. Little humans are non-sexualized, so what we adults think or feel about sexuality, should not be imposed on them. We do far more damage to little humans, by applying norms of sexual conduct to them.

    Pre-pubescent children quite literally don't care whether you have a slit or a hose down there, anymore than whether your pimple is the size of a mountain or a little whitehead.

    Sexualizing children is a far bigger wrong than people realize- which is why though I am not anti-hijab, I shall never, ever condone a pre-pubescent girl wearing it, just like I won't ever condone spandex and high heels for the same age group. Let children be children.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    So third-gender does not exist according to you ? Hijdas are just regular you and me dudes having some fun in a Sari ?
    Of course third gender exists. He, she and it are the three genders.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Of course third gender exists. He, she and it are the three genders.
    You said earlier :
    Hopefully the preferred gender people dont get to interact with me, as I am only going to call people by what they look like to me.
    Now you admit third gender exists. So what does third gender humans looks like to you ??

    And lastly, why is biological evidence not sufficient to change your mind ?
    I am curious, because my life-long science profession has lead me to pretty easily change my mind, if scientific data is presented within the scope of the study.

  35. #35
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    The other day I was presented with a question.

    In a class of 30 pupils, 16 are male, and 2 a transgender - how many girls in the class?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    The other day I was presented with a question.

    In a class of 30 pupils, 16 are male, and 2 a transgender - how many girls in the class?
    So are you on the 'side of science' in this case, like you allegedly claimed to be in the creationist vs non-creationist debate ?

    PS: your question is unanswerable without more clarification i suppose.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    You said earlier :


    Now you admit third gender exists. So what does third gender humans looks like to you ??

    And lastly, why is biological evidence not sufficient to change your mind ?
    I am curious, because my life-long science profession has lead me to pretty easily change my mind, if scientific data is presented within the scope of the study.
    If they look masculine in female clothes, I identity them as the third gender. of course, as an open minded person I leave room for doubt.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    If they look masculine in female clothes, I identity them as the third gender. of course, as an open minded person I leave room for doubt.
    So do you assume every woman wearing jeans and t-shirt to be a third gender ?!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    So do you assume every woman wearing jeans and t-shirt to be a third gender ?!
    Please explain how you derived this logic from my statement.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Please explain how you derived this logic from my statement.
    because if men dressing in women's clothing = identified as third gender,why not the same when women dress in men's clothing ??

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    because if men dressing in women's clothing = identified as third gender,why not the same when women dress in men's clothing ??
    i dont think there is any such thing as men's clothing. and when did a symmetric relation become a given? a implies b does not lead to b implies a.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    i dont think there is any such thing as men's clothing. and when did a symmetric relation become a given? a implies b does not lead to b implies a.
    The only reason you don't think there is anything called 'men's clothing' is because women have been wearing men's clothing for 50 years now.
    Go back 100 years and you will see, there was such a thing called men's clothing and women were highly discouraged from wearing pants.

    It is not a symmetric relation, its a corollary relation : If A implies not B, then B must also imply not A.

    And more importantly, why is your first-glance view more important than another person's identity, which is rooted in a scientific fact ?
    Would you be happy, if you identified as a muslim and someone said ' pull out a Koran right now, or ****....you don't SEEM muslim so i wont address you as such' ???

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    The only reason you don't think there is anything called 'men's clothing' is because women have been wearing men's clothing for 50 years now.
    Go back 100 years and you will see, there was such a thing called men's clothing and women were highly discouraged from wearing pants.

    It is not a symmetric relation, its a corollary relation : If A implies not B, then B must also imply not A.

    And more importantly, why is your first-glance view more important than another person's identity, which is rooted in a scientific fact ?
    Would you be happy, if you identified as a muslim and someone said ' pull out a Koran right now, or ****....you don't SEEM muslim so i wont address you as such' ???
    well I am an indian, and whenever someone says you don't look indian, i feel very proud and happy.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    well I am an indian, and whenever someone says you don't look indian, i feel very proud and happy.
    Ok. But if there is an identity you WANT to be recognized, yet people don't recognize it because 'you dont display it outwardly', would you consider that person to be unduly rude or not ??

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    This is what happens when people are too liberal....





    There is iliteracy, poverty, crime, injustice, hunger, war etc in the world but some people are concerned whether they are boy or girl even though they have male anatomy


    #Mein inko rolaonga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    Ok. But if there is an identity you WANT to be recognized, yet people don't recognize it because 'you dont display it outwardly', would you consider that person to be unduly rude or not ??
    Not at all, it would be a sad way to live if the opinion of every other person affects you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Not at all, it would be a sad way to live if the opinion of every other person affects you.
    So someone saying 'screw you' randomly does not affect you at all ??
    Politeness is not a matter of opinions of every other person affecting you, it is a matter of basic decency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    This is what happens when people are too liberal....





    There is iliteracy, poverty, crime, injustice, hunger, war etc in the world but some people are concerned whether they are boy or girl even though they have male anatomy
    This is a red-herring argument.
    War, illiteracy, poverty, etc. does not mean other types of injustices should be ignored or condoned.
    This is the same type of argument as saying ' you have starving people in your nation, why are you sending people to space or spending on Presidnential entourages'.

    People are concerned, because some people are being victimized for being a certain way and that is injustice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    So someone saying 'screw you' randomly does not affect you at all ??
    Politeness is not a matter of opinions of every other person affecting you, it is a matter of basic decency.
    too much sense of entitlement. let the preferred pronoun pretenders keep begging, not going to give them an inch..these are useless people who keep inventing imaginary issues to stay relevant. If i find one, I will make sure to use the non preferred pronoun on them.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by shah_1 View Post
    Absolute rubbish

    I will call someone of what he or she looks like whether that person is offended or not.
    If I see you and call you a girl, will you be ofended?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    too much sense of entitlement. let the preferred pronoun pretenders keep begging, not going to give them an inch..these are useless people who keep inventing imaginary issues to stay relevant. If i find one, I will make sure to use the non preferred pronoun on them.
    You are not making much sense now. Asking for basic politeness is too much self-entitlement ?
    Do you feel your wife is too entitled if she gets annoyed at being referred to in a way she does not like ?!?

    What part of the biological proof presented by endocrinologist did you not get ? Or is it too difficult to accept because the science is too complicated ??
    I have already proven- by quoting an endocrinologist- that this stuff,is real. It has a basis in biology.
    So why you are dismissing empiric evidence as 'imaginary issues' ??

    What you are displaying, is basic knee-jerk discrimination. Pretty telling of the type of person you are, if empiric evidence cannot change your mind about an issue that is ultimately, trivial to you and does not affect you in any which way, but affects the victims of your behaviour.
    Last edited by Traveller55; 2nd February 2018 at 18:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    You are not making much sense now. Asking for basic politeness is too much self-entitlement ?
    Do you feel your wife is too entitled if she gets annoyed at being referred to in a way she does not like ?!?

    What part of the biological proof presented by endocrinologist did you not get ? Or is it too difficult to accept because the science is too complicated ??
    I have already proven- by quoting an endocrinologist- that this stuff,is real. It has a basis in biology.
    So why you are dismissing empiric evidence as 'imaginary issues' ??

    What you are displaying, is basic knee-jerk discrimination. Pretty telling of the type of person you are, if empiric evidence cannot change your mind about an issue that is ultimately, trivial to you and does not affect you in any which way, but affects the victims of your behaviour.

    I am totally OK with not making any sense to you, as long as I make sense to myself. Call me whatever, I stand by my decision, and can't wait to meet these preferred pronoun darlings in real life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    I am totally OK with not making any sense to you, as long as I make sense to myself. Call me whatever, I stand by my decision, and can't wait to meet these preferred pronoun darlings in real life.
    You are not even making sense to yourself, unless you are irrational.
    Earlier you said, if you saw a man in a woman's clothing, you will identify them as third gender and accepted that there is such a thing called third gender ('it' according to you).
    Now, you are saying its inventing useless, imaginary issues and you won't give an inch.

    Those two positions are contradictory and the only way to make sense of it, is if you admit to being irrational.

    You can't wait to meet people in real life, where you can't even show basic level of decency to them. Must make you very proud when you find yourself on the similar recieving end.
    Last edited by Traveller55; 2nd February 2018 at 19:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    You are not even making sense to yourself, unless you are irrational.
    Earlier you said, if you saw a man in a woman's clothing, you will identify them as third gender and accepted that there is such a thing called third gender ('it' according to you).
    Now, you are saying its inventing useless, imaginary issues and you won't give an inch.

    Those two positions are contradictory and the only way to make sense of it, is if you admit to being irrational.

    You can't wait to meet people in real life, where you can't even show basic level of decency to them. Must make you very proud when you find yourself on the similar recieving end.
    I never denied that third gender doesnt exist, don't know how you interpreted that. I only said that I will decide what pronouns to use for them, not going to let them dictate what pronoun I should be using.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    I never denied that third gender doesnt exist, don't know how you interpreted that. I only said that I will decide what pronouns to use for them, not going to let them dictate what pronoun I should be using.

    As long as you do that same thing for regular people, fine. Else you are discriminating in a way similar to racism, where there is no rhyme or reason to be impolite to people.

    I hope you are accepting of any pronoun used for you, if you don't care how your usage of pronouns affect others.

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    Live and let live I say. Whatever the UK govt decides it the right way is good for me. I have my own values and I can always pass them on to those that matter.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    So are you on the 'side of science' in this case, like you allegedly claimed to be in the creationist vs non-creationist debate ?

    PS: your question is unanswerable without more clarification i suppose.
    Stumbled already? It was a simple question.

    In terms of science, XX = Female, XY = Male. FACT.

    A man dressing up as a girl doesn't make him a woman or vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Stumbled already? It was a simple question.

    In terms of science, XX = Female, XY = Male. FACT.

    A man dressing up as a girl doesn't make him a woman or vice versa
    .
    You are confusing sex identities as gender identities.

    I've already posted evidence from endocrinologist that shows men can be women inside and vice versa, based on hard biological fact.
    Therefore, XX can identify as a 'he' and a XY can identify as a 'she'.


    Your move, chief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    You are confusing sex identities as gender identities.

    I've already posted evidence from endocrinologist that shows men can be women inside and vice versa, based on hard biological fact.
    Therefore, XX can identify as a 'he' and a XY can identify as a 'she'.


    Your move, chief.
    XY - Mamle
    XX - Female

    Show me another combination of chromosomes, until then you don't have a leg to stand on.

    Your argument boils down to what one feels like - doesn't hold up in a court of science.

    Your evidence has the same level of credence as an eternal universe - laughable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    XY - Mamle
    XX - Female

    Show me another combination of chromosomes, until then you don't have a leg to stand on.

    Your argument boils down to what one feels like - doesn't hold up in a court of science.

    Your evidence has the same level of credence as an eternal universe - laughable.
    Chromosomes determine sex. Not gender.
    Biology has already proven that.

    Evidence presented how XX chromosome individuals may feel male and vice versa according to biology:

    http://www.eulabs.eu/Downloads/gooren06.pdf

    Dr. Gooren is an endocrinologist who has presented hard, empiric evidence.

    Ergo, it is scientifically documented.
    Ergo, you are overruled.
    Again, your move, chief. Keep exposing yourself .

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    Redefining the English language I see. Sex/Gender same difference.

    XX feels like a male doesn't make XX a male.

    What next? You feel like Wonder Woman because you have long hair, blue eyes, and wear a belt? No wait, at 55 you feel young, so you claim to be 15.

    Tsk Tsk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Redefining the English language I see. Sex/Gender same difference.
    Nope it is not. One is a physical trait, one is a mental one.

    XX feels like a male doesn't make XX a male.
    Sorry, overruled by hard biological evidence.
    You have presented zero evidence to support your position. I have presented a PhD in endocrinology who has categorically supported my position.

    What next? You feel like Wonder Woman because you have long hair, blue eyes, and wear a belt? No wait, at 55 you feel young, so you claim to be 15.

    Tsk Tsk.
    If it is supported by hard biological evidence verified empirically, then yes. Otherwise, no. Thats how science works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    Nope it is not. One is a physical trait, one is a mental one.



    Sorry, overruled by hard biological evidence.
    You have presented zero evidence to support your position. I have presented a PhD in endocrinology who has categorically supported my position.



    If it is supported by hard biological evidence verified empirically, then yes. Otherwise, no. Thats how science works.
    Wrong. Science works on falsification and repeatable tests.

    What next? The sun orbits the Earth because you feel like it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Wrong. Science works on falsification and repeatable tests.
    Which relies on empirical evidence.

    What next? The sun orbits the Earth because you feel like it?
    If evidence is presented, as I have, then yes. Same evidence-based methodology was used to overrule heliocentric model.
    Just as hard biological evidence is used to overrule your position on gender.

    Kindly address the scientific paper of authority presented or counter it with equal evidence from biology experts.Or admit defeat/irrationality of your position.
    Those are the only options you have left, mate.

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    Another piece of evidence to scientifically confirm transgenderism via clinical psychology:

    https://www.thenewatlantis.com/docLi...yandGender.pdf


    I have thus presented biological evidence (specific hormonal discrepancies identified by endocrinology) as well as clinical psychology.

    Reverse Swing on the other hand, has presented zero corroboration of his position and thus, his position is unobjective and unscientific.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    Which relies on empirical evidence.



    If evidence is presented, as I have, then yes. Same evidence-based methodology was used to overrule heliocentric model.
    Just as hard biological evidence is used to overrule your position on gender.

    Kindly address the scientific paper of authority presented or counter it with equal evidence from biology experts.Or admit defeat/irrationality of your position.
    Those are the only options you have left, mate.
    You also presented evidence of an eternal universe, which was falsified moons ago. I guess desperation knows no bounds.

    You are arguing for the sake of it. Using Google at your disposal. An obvious trait.

    I'm left wondering whether you are a member of the Flat-Earth society, son. (See what I did here?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    You also presented evidence of an eternal universe, which was falsified moons ago. I guess desperation knows no bounds.
    That is your claim, you have not substantiated your claim with any citation. So again, overruled due to your ideological desperation.

    You are arguing for the sake of it. Using Google at your disposal. An obvious trait.

    I'm left wondering whether you are a member of the Flat-Earth society, son. (See what I did here?).
    Flat earth society would be more up your alley, since you are demonstrating an ability to hold an unscientific position not backed up by any citation- just your own opinion.

    The entire forum can see, who is making things up as they go along and who is citing experts of science for a scientific position.

    Feel free to post any counter article from an authority in clinical biology. Else you have nothing but your empty ideological words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    That is your claim, you have not substantiated your claim with any citation. So again, overruled due to your ideological desperation.



    Flat earth society would be more up your alley, since you are demonstrating an ability to hold an unscientific position not backed up by any citation- just your own opinion.

    The entire forum can see, who is making things up as they go along and who is citing experts of science for a scientific position.

    Feel free to post any counter article from an authority in clinical biology. Else you have nothing but your empty ideological words.
    What ever helps you sleep at night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    What ever helps you sleep at night.
    Evidence helps me sleep well at night, from scientific figures of authority. Clearly inapplicable to your position or else you'd have countered my scientific & empiric biological evidence of gender-fluidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    Evidence helps me sleep well at night, from scientific figures of authority. Clearly inapplicable to your position or else you'd have countered my scientific & empiric biological evidence of gender-fluidity.
    Yawn.

    Good night!

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Yawn.

    Good night!
    Thank you for demonstrating what a baseless ideological position looks like. Good night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    is Toyota Corolla a gender ? religion ?
    Hey! That's what I feel like being today. That is my gender, who are you to judge?


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

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    Definition of He: used to refer to a man, boy.
    Definition of Man: an adult human male.

    Just because you are a women and want to be referred to as a man I should use the wrong words?


    Does cricket survive off of it's money or does it survive for it's money?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aloo paratha View Post
    Definition of He: used to refer to a man, boy.
    Definition of Man: an adult human male.

    Just because you are a women and want to be referred to as a man I should use the wrong words?
    Look dude, hard biological facts have already been posted. Twice. It is up to you, if you want to educate yourself on scientific evidence or keep being ignorant.

    A woman who feels like a man inside, is empirically evidenced in biology (endocrinology) and is therefore, valid.

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    Like how religious posters are throwing around scientific jokes,oh man!


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    But science has proven that gender and sex are different. Did you read the article from the endocrinologist ? There is a biological difference.
    So the bolded part , is an appeal to ignorance and saying ' yea well, screw facts, we are gonna continue to be ignorant'.

    As per being in girls room or not- that is irrelevant. We from the subcontinent know that whether its India or Pakistan or Bangladesh, millions of people go do their business outdoors instead of a toilet...yet, that is not a problem for little girls being 'traumatized'. But stick them in a washroom and all hell breaks loose ?

    Lastly about suicide rates - its because trans community is one of the most abused communities in the world that their suicide rate is higher.

    The simple rule of thumb is, when hard facts prove something exists, its time to accept that fact. And hard biological facts has proven, that gender-fluidity does exist.
    Many scientific studies have proved that transgenderism isn't a mental condition. But on the other hand, several studies have shown that it definitely IS a mental conditon. The discrepency arises because of the way we as a society have been conditioned to manipulate the meanings of words and define them so they suit us best. The gender arguement is just used by pseudo-liberals to seem politically correct, which adds to the social justice warrior nonsense. Transgenderism being a normal thing for one's mental state isnt a scientific fact. There is no hard evidence that states "even though you are a biological man, the way your brain works is that of a female."Throughout history, the behaviour of wanting to change your "gender" from a biological man to a biological woman has been deemed to be a mental disorder. It used to be called gender identitiy disorder, then gender dysphoria, and now transgenderism. Being born with some form of mutation of your genitals or some fault in your genes and chromosome is one thing, but thinking that you're a woman but infact you are a biological man is not healthy or natural.

    As for people doing their business outdoors, it is very much a problem for little girls, and everyone for that matter, to be traumatized. No one is comfortable with seeing human beings relieving themselves in public. It's become a regular thing that people have to go through in the subcontinent, but that doesnt make it okay.



    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    For the bolded part - I missed quoting it earlier.
    Have you ever interacted with a transgender person ? Your post makes it clear you have not.
    I've always found it deeply unsettling how people form knee-jerk opinions on things without actually investigating them- its the part of the cultural/religious brainwashing problem and intellectual laziness.

    How can you, in one post, say 'I see what you mean that no guy wakes up wanting to be a girl' and then say ' if a grown man deciedes you are a woman' ?! Its not a decision. Its acknowledgement of reality, a quantifiable feeling backed up by distinct biology of the brain and the endocrine system. Clinically proven.

    The implications socially is that our binary and ignorant view on sexuality has to change in lieu of scientific facts.
    Ten years ago, I used to be like you - till I decieded to follow the axiom of 'always investigate first and gain first hand experience of said topic'.
    I suggest you go find a transgender person to talk to and it will be quite eye-opening.

    As per little girls seeing men in ladies room or little boys seeing women in men's room - I have a far bigger problem with seeing little girls clad in Burqa or burlesque costumes than this. Little humans are non-sexualized, so what we adults think or feel about sexuality, should not be imposed on them. We do far more damage to little humans, by applying norms of sexual conduct to them.

    Pre-pubescent children quite literally don't care whether you have a slit or a hose down there, anymore than whether your pimple is the size of a mountain or a little whitehead.

    Sexualizing children is a far bigger wrong than people realize- which is why though I am not anti-hijab, I shall never, ever condone a pre-pubescent girl wearing it, just like I won't ever condone spandex and high heels for the same age group. Let children be children.
    I've studied with a female who was going through transition therapy to transfer over to a man. You saying that I'm forming knee-jerk opinions without even researching about the topics is a broad assumption. It makes me take you a bit less seriously and makes me think that you are just relaying the social justive warrior notion of "embrace everyone for who they are. you are all special. We are on your side" All that stuff works in a hypothetical ideal world where everyone is different but arent affected negatively because of it, but in the case of transgenderism, there are devastating consequences. The suicide rate in the transgender society is 40 percent as i said before. This exceeds the suicide rate in the holocaust when millions of jews were mercilessly killed. I dont think the transgender people go anywhere near as much torture and pain as those innocent jews. Bullying is present in all societies throughout the world. African-american kids living in majority white areas in america go through severe amounts of bullying as well. I dont see the suicide rate there to be anywhere near as 40%. 4 out of 10 transgender people commiting suicide is a frightening amount. It's the highest suicide rate amongst any minority in history. You can't just say bullying is the main reaosn. It's the chemical dysbalance in the brain, if anything, that leads to these suicide rates.

    As for little girls wearing hijabs, thats not even remotely as worrying as thinking yourself to be of the opposite sex. "Little humans" are not sexualized, but thats not related to this discussion.



    School of UCLA research on transgenderism in 2016 was from where i got my stats from btw
    Last edited by AssassinatedDevil; 3rd February 2018 at 07:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    Many scientific studies have proved that transgenderism isn't a mental condition. But on the other hand, several studies have shown that it definitely IS a mental conditon. The discrepency arises because of the way we as a society have been conditioned to manipulate the meanings of words and define them so they suit us best. The gender arguement is just used by pseudo-liberals to seem politically correct, which adds to the social justice warrior nonsense. Transgenderism isnt a scientific fact. There is no hard evidence that states "even though you are a biological man, the way your brain works is that of a female."Throughout history, the behaviour of wanting to change your "gender" from a biological man to a biological woman has been deemed to be a mental disorder. It used to be called gender identitiy disorder, then gender dysphoria, and now transgenderism. Being born with some form of mutation of your genitals or some fault in your genes and chromosome is one thing, but thinking that you're a woman but infact you are a biological man is not healthy or natural.

    As for people doing their business outdoors, it is very much a problem for little girls, and everyone for that matter, to be traumatized. No one is comfortable with seeing human beings relieving themselves in public. It's become a regular thing that people have to go through in the subcontinent, but that doesnt make it okay.
    The two bolded statements are contradictory. If science has proved transgenderism isn't a mental condition, it defaults to a biological condition.
    And I have already provided proof of that from the highest sources possible.
    Ergo, transgerism *is* a fact.
    That some transgenders are 'mentally and not physically' transgender, are irrelevant to those who ARE physically transgender, as substantiated by endocrinology.

    You are in no objective position to judge what is/what is not natural which has been substantiated by cold, hard facts about hormonal systems.
    Period.

    Your claims are meaningless- I have provided direct proof of biological basis to transgenderism. Ergo, for you to ad-hoc declare transgenderism to be unnatural, you need to provide atleast ONE opposing biological treatese on the subject.

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    "Little humans" are not sexualized, but thats not related to this discussion.
    When pre-pubescent kids are put in hijab or sexy clothing, they are being sexualized in the two opposing spectrum of sexualization. Modesty, by definition, is a sexualized concept- nobody in their right minds has a problem with kids running around naked as a part of life growing up. Ergo, asking kids to wear clothing that is deemed 'modest', is by fundamental, sexualizing children.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    The two bolded statements are contradictory. If science has proved transgenderism isn't a mental condition, it defaults to a biological condition.
    And I have already provided proof of that from the highest sources possible.
    Ergo, transgerism *is* a fact.
    That some transgenders are 'mentally and not physically' transgender, are irrelevant to those who ARE physically transgender, as substantiated by endocrinology.

    You are in no objective position to judge what is/what is not natural which has been substantiated by cold, hard facts about hormonal systems.
    Period.

    Your claims are meaningless- I have provided direct proof of biological basis to transgenderism. Ergo, for you to ad-hoc declare transgenderism to be unnatural, you need to provide atleast ONE opposing biological treatese on the subject.
    http://waltheyer.com/transgenders-4-...tal-disorders/ check the references at the bottom of these documents. Should be enough evidence for my side of the arguement.



    The most succint articles and studies imo for my case https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...der-sex-change

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...port-Final.pdf

    The youtube links are good civil discussions on the topic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkONHNXGfaM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdjdNgvF42o


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUOjuiAikrU

    Last link is from a transgender activist saying how transgenderism is objectively a mental disorder, but an interesting video nonetheless
    Last edited by AssassinatedDevil; 3rd February 2018 at 08:04.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller55 View Post
    When pre-pubescent kids are put in hijab or sexy clothing, they are being sexualized in the two opposing spectrum of sexualization. Modesty, by definition, is a sexualized concept- nobody in their right minds has a problem with kids running around naked as a part of life growing up. Ergo, asking kids to wear clothing that is deemed 'modest', is by fundamental, sexualizing children.
    I'm confused as to what you mean by "nobody in their right minds has a problem with kids running around naked as a part of life growing up". I dont know about you but if i see random kids running around naked then i would definitely see it as a problem.


    If you tell children to not wear "sexy clothing" then you are doing your level best to not make them a target of sexual predators. I dont see what's wrong with that. There can be an arguement about the 2 extremes but generally if it prevents harm from sexual predators then it's a relatively good thing.

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