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  1. #1
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    When will Pakistan rid itself of this Mullah-Military alliance?

    So I am visiting my family in Pakistan right now, and there's a sit-in ("dharna") on the main road connecting Islamabad with Rawalpindi. The common people living in twin cities have to suffer a lot when commuting.

    There has been absolutely no response from the state so far. Govt is wary to act after Qadri debacle.

    There is open speculation about these dharna walas that they are being propped up by military to arm-twist the government. Just like Qadri used to crusade on Islamabad every year in both PPP and PMLN eras.

    When will our army learn the lesson not to use religion for their own nefarious gains? Haven't they learnt a lesson already from Afghan adventures?

    Now, I'm sure PTI supporters are tacitly enjoying this high-handedness of army but why don't they understand that even IK won't be able to deliver his promise until civil supremacy is installed. There is no point holding elections or getting elected if you have little power.

    All TV channels seem to be sold out to ISPR, and its like we all should kneel down and start worshiping the uniformed.

    Overall my trip here has been very depressing and it really pains to see current state of affairs in the country.

  2. #2
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    You may very well be right about military-mullah alliance but why would the army prop up a pro-Qadri rally when they are themselves the people who carried out the Qadri execution.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

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    The two seem to be tightly intermingled. There is a pretty good book on the topic - Pakistan: From Mosque to Military.

  4. #4
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    I don't think it exists, sounds like some whack conspiracy theory off of infowars.

  5. #5
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    One hand washes the other.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    I don't think it exists, sounds like some whack conspiracy theory off of infowars.
    Yeah so the Talibanization to gain strategic depth in Afghanistan is all some whack conspiracy? What about Zia and his exploitation of Islam to keep himself in power? There's no question on existence, its just when they will realize that its no good. Even after the loss of 70k+ own countrymen, they insist on manipulation religion card.
    Last edited by LegendInzi; 18th November 2017 at 16:01.

  7. #7
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    It's not in the military's interest for there to be stability in Pakistan.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Yeah so the Talibanization to gain strategic depth in Afghanistan is all some whack conspiracy? What about Zia and his exploitation of Islam to keep himself in power? There's no question on existence, its just when they will realize that its no good. Even after the loss of 70k+ own countrymen, they insist on manipulation religion card.
    Lol pull out the tinfoil hats, i dont know what y'all are on.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    It's not in the military's interest for there to be stability in Pakistan.
    tell us more about how the moon landing was fake, the music industry is satanic, and vaccines cause autism smh.

    Conspiracy nuts need to find a new hobby lol.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    It's not in the military's interest for there to be stability in Pakistan.
    Funniest statement on the internet.. Yes the politicians are hard at work day and night to build a stable, prosperous Pakistan


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Funniest statement on the internet.. Yes the politicians are hard at work day and night to build a stable, prosperous Pakistan
    If you believe they aren't, you are free to vote them out and bring in a candidate of your choice. Like Imran Khan.

    If the army is in power there will be none of that.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    So I am visiting my family in Pakistan right now, and there's a sit-in ("dharna") on the main road connecting Islamabad with Rawalpindi. The common people living in twin cities have to suffer a lot when commuting.

    There has been absolutely no response from the state so far. Govt is wary to act after Qadri debacle.

    There is open speculation about these dharna walas that they are being propped up by military to arm-twist the government. Just like Qadri used to crusade on Islamabad every year in both PPP and PMLN eras.

    When will our army learn the lesson not to use religion for their own nefarious gains? Haven't they learnt a lesson already from Afghan adventures?

    Now, I'm sure PTI supporters are tacitly enjoying this high-handedness of army but why don't they understand that even IK won't be able to deliver his promise until civil supremacy is installed. There is no point holding elections or getting elected if you have little power.

    All TV channels seem to be sold out to ISPR, and its like we all should kneel down and start worshiping the uniformed.

    Overall my trip here has been very depressing and it really pains to see current state of affairs in the country.
    You need to get your facts in order before going on your tirade against the army. The narrative that this protest is being supported by the army is nothing but the agenda being spewed by PMLN supporters.

    Let's get to some facts. The entire situation was ignited by the son in law of Nawaz Sharif when he went on a tirade in the National Assembly against a certain minority. That was followed by Shabaz Sharif's speech a few weeks ago in front of Nawaz where he demanded that the ministers for the debacle be publicly named and removed from the cabinet. Small protests were then held in cities across Punjab. The Punjab government told the protesters that their demands could only be met by the federal government. The protesters then headed to Islamabad with the blessings of the Punjab govt. they right now have the same demands that Shabaz Sharif made in his speech a few weeks ago.

    Blaming everything on the army is the easy way out taken by every single government in Pakistan. PMLN has been trying for months for there to be a conflict between the institutions in Pakistan. This is another ploy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    If you believe they aren't, you are free to vote them out and bring in a candidate of your choice. Like Imran Khan.

    If the army is in power there will be none of that.
    You need to be insane and have a tinfoil hat on to think that the army of a country will purposefully destabilize that country.


    It's just the conspiracy-theorist desi liberals who spew this garbage while sitting in their comfy lounges.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    You need to be insane and have a tinfoil hat on to think that the army of a country will purposefully destabilize that country.
    The army in question has a patchy record at best. They 'purposefully' followed policies that lost half the country, purposefully supported rogue elements in Afghanistan during the Soviet war that is causing Pakistan a headache today, made the most laughable error by invading Kargil in 1999, and can't guarantee that you will be safe in a downtown Pakistani city same time next week.

    If you absolutely need to have an army that you want to support, this lot should be disbanded and you should start all over again. I'll give them 3/10 for effort.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    So I am visiting my family in Pakistan right now, and there's a sit-in ("dharna") on the main road connecting Islamabad with Rawalpindi. The common people living in twin cities have to suffer a lot when commuting.

    There has been absolutely no response from the state so far. Govt is wary to act after Qadri debacle.

    There is open speculation about these dharna walas that they are being propped up by military to arm-twist the government. Just like Qadri used to crusade on Islamabad every year in both PPP and PMLN eras.

    When will our army learn the lesson not to use religion for their own nefarious gains? Haven't they learnt a lesson already from Afghan adventures?

    Now, I'm sure PTI supporters are tacitly enjoying this high-handedness of army but why don't they understand that even IK won't be able to deliver his promise until civil supremacy is installed. There is no point holding elections or getting elected if you have little power.

    All TV channels seem to be sold out to ISPR, and its like we all should kneel down and start worshiping the uniformed.

    Overall my trip here has been very depressing and it really pains to see current state of affairs in the country.
    Do you have any proof of military doing this or just another conspiracy theory you just invented in your free time.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The army in question has a patchy record at best. They 'purposefully' followed policies that lost half the country, purposefully supported rogue elements in Afghanistan during the Soviet war that is causing Pakistan a headache today, made the most laughable error by invading Kargil in 1999, and can't guarantee that you will be safe in a downtown Pakistani city same time next week.

    If you absolutely need to have an army that you want to support, this lot should be disbanded and you should start all over again. I'll give them 3/10 for effort.
    You need to stop watching so much TV and get out more.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    You need to stop watching so much TV and get out more.
    Yeah, I need to step out to realize that Bangladesh is still East Pakistan, Kargil and Kashmir was conquered in 1999, and Pakistan is the peaceful paradise of South Asia.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    Yeah, I need to step out to realize that Bangladesh is still East Pakistan, Kargil and Kashmir was conquered in 1999, and Pakistan is the peaceful paradise of South Asia.
    You're ratchet lol

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    You need to be insane and have a tinfoil hat on to think that the army of a country will purposefully destabilize that country.


    It's just the conspiracy-theorist desi liberals who spew this garbage while sitting in their comfy lounges.
    This is not true. PLease watch bol tv and connect the dots. Military, Mullahs and Imran khan are working together against Pakistan, PMLN and India are working together to stablize Pakistan. Another proof of this is tsunami youth trees or whatever. Imran planting millions of trees represents symbolism, meaning he wants to turn Pakistan into a Jungle.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    This is not true. PLease watch bol tv and connect the dots. Military, Mullahs and Imran khan are working together against Pakistan, PMLN and India are working together to stablize Pakistan. Another proof of this is tsunami youth trees or whatever. Imran planting millions of trees represents symbolism, meaning he wants to turn Pakistan into a Jungle.
    On top of that the color of the trees is green, and green is the color of Islam. Imran Khan is spreading Islamization in Pakistan


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    It's not in the military's interest for there to be stability in Pakistan.
    Spot on! They have lost more soldiers in last decade than entire history (outside wars) in attacks carried out by Talibans/criminals/Indian & Afghan proxies so must be in their best interest to keep losing people and destabilize Pakistan right? It must be satisfying for them to see more attacks in Pakistan, APS attack, Naval base attack etc?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBrawler View Post
    You need to get your facts in order before going on your tirade against the army. The narrative that this protest is being supported by the army is nothing but the agenda being spewed by PMLN supporters.

    Let's get to some facts. The entire situation was ignited by the son in law of Nawaz Sharif when he went on a tirade in the National Assembly against a certain minority. That was followed by Shabaz Sharif's speech a few weeks ago in front of Nawaz where he demanded that the ministers for the debacle be publicly named and removed from the cabinet. Small protests were then held in cities across Punjab. The Punjab government told the protesters that their demands could only be met by the federal government. The protesters then headed to Islamabad with the blessings of the Punjab govt. they right now have the same demands that Shabaz Sharif made in his speech a few weeks ago.

    Blaming everything on the army is the easy way out taken by every single government in Pakistan. PMLN has been trying for months for there to be a conflict between the institutions in Pakistan. This is another ploy.
    Very well explained and glad someone commenting based on recent facts rather than conspiracy theories.

    Does someone seriously think PMLN would create this "Ahmadi" controversy without any thoughts behind it? This fasaadi and filthy Khadiz Rizvi was creating troubles on Mumtaz Qadri issue so this was the last thing any government would even think about, they first denied changing and then claimed it was a mistake.

    Also this Khadim Rizvi openly abused Rahil Sharif for providing state funeral to Edhi sb. This guy is clearly an opportunist who is using death of Mumtaz Qadri to his favour, not sure what would military get from this loser? Hafiz Saeed's party does look dodgy and should've been blocked but is it fauj's responsibility?

    Also @LegendInzi MMA was actually called "Mullah Military Alliance", who is reviving it in KPK? Who is trying to ensure PTI doesn't get back the power in 2018? Without MMA, it was going to be easy victory for PTI but now it will be HUGE task so based on your logic:

    Surely Establishment is trying to block PTI in KPK? If not then maybe MMA are just looking after their personal interests? So if that's the case then maybe Khadim and Hafiz Saeed doing same???
    Last edited by Waseem; 19th November 2017 at 05:29.

  23. #23
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    When Army gets the blame for a lot of unfortunate happenings in Pakistan, its not because of our love for the political system and parties but because ultimately it was the Army who made Nawaz Sharif and PML, along with MQM, PML-Q and others. So guess who taught Nawaz to exploit religion in the first place when campaigning against BB. But just like Kashmiri mujahedeens and Taliban changed their colors and started attacking their masters, so did Nawaz and his family. Every nefarious thing that our Army has done from subverting the constitution to playing the puppet master to political leaders and parties to using religion to create and fund extremist groups has ultimately come back and bite them. It's useless to debate their intentions or argue over who loves the country more, but looks like all they have learned from history is to become more mischievous and shadowy.


    “I am not young enough to know everything.”

    ― Oscar Wilde

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Spot on! They have lost more soldiers in last decade than entire history (outside wars) in attacks carried out by Talibans/criminals/Indian & Afghan proxies so must be in their best interest to keep losing people and destabilize Pakistan right? It must be satisfying for them to see more attacks in Pakistan, APS attack, Naval base attack etc?
    Are the top brass (the decision makers) losing their lives? Are their family members being put in the line of danger?

    It is difficult to justify military spending when there is stability and simply because their pet Hydra suddenly turned on them, doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

    Also a perpetual state of war be it hot or cold ferments sentiments which shut down any analysis of the Army's actions and motives as well as the inherent corruption.


    Better luck next time

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Funniest statement on the internet.. Yes the politicians are hard at work day and night to build a stable, prosperous Pakistan
    Who said anything about politicians or their quest for stability?

    How have you come to this conclusion?

  26. #26
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    It is difficult to say that the powerful military is behind Mullah Rizvi and his band of hate mongers as he routinely curses former COAS Raheel Sharif and other law enforcement agencies in his fiery speeches. Just two days ago, he again called Edhi saab 'a beggar' and lashed out at him for bringing up illegitimate children. He is the face of barelvi extremism. A top-grade nutter!


    Sehwag and Steyn are the Best.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    It is difficult to say that the powerful military is behind Mullah Rizvi and his band of hate mongers as he routinely curses former COAS Raheel Sharif and other law enforcement agencies in his fiery speeches. Just two days ago, he again called Edhi saab 'a beggar' and lashed out at him for bringing up illegitimate children. He is the face of barelvi extremism. A top-grade nutter!
    I've not heard or read of any concrete link.

    However, one must remember just like any organisation, the army is not a monolith but has various (and at times opposing) factions within it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    I've not heard or read of any concrete link.

    However, one must remember just like any organisation, the army is not a monolith but has various (and at times opposing) factions within it.
    Yes Army is the spawn of Satan... Any other conspiracy you would like to enlighten us with?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Spot on! They have lost more soldiers in last decade than entire history (outside wars) in attacks carried out by Talibans/criminals/Indian & Afghan proxies so must be in their best interest to keep losing people and destabilize Pakistan right? It must be satisfying for them to see more attacks in Pakistan, APS attack, Naval base attack etc?
    No man our Army likes seeing its own jawans brutally killed or children slaughtered. Heck I'd even go so far and say the army itself did APS to get sympathy.


    #conspiracy theorists

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    Are the top brass (the decision makers) losing their lives? Are their family members being put in the line of danger?

    It is difficult to justify military spending when there is stability and simply because their pet Hydra suddenly turned on them, doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

    Also a perpetual state of war be it hot or cold ferments sentiments which shut down any analysis of the Army's actions and motives as well as the inherent corruption.
    It is undeniable that the army has incentives to intervene in politics to protect its interests. Most obviously there is the factor of wishing to safeguard appropriations from the national budget for defence spending. In addition, more attention has recently been given to the military's wider penetration into Pakistan's economy and its extensive business interests, characterised as 'Military Inc.' by Ayesha Siddiqa.

    Yet, there is a danger here of underplaying ideology and over-estimating material self-interest. A strong commitment to the unity of Pakistan and a very patriotic ethos permeates the institution. The idea that the army is the premier unifying force and that its own strength is entwined with the nation's strength may well be fallacious but it is not entirely driven by self-interest but in fact a result of a distinct institutional mindset. The work of Aqil Shah (The Army and Democracy) that seeks to enter "the habits of mind"of the army is particularly illuminating in this regard.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    No man our Army likes seeing its own jawans brutally killed or children slaughtered. Heck I'd even go so far and say the army itself did APS to get sympathy.


    #conspiracy theorists
    No army in the world wants its soldiers killed, but their job is to put their lives on the line. Police do the same, shall we refuse to ever criticise them despite their corruption and abuses being widely reported since they also sacrifice their lives ?

    When the Army belatedly conducts operations it should have carried out years ago against TTP, yes it deserves credit.

    However Army has not lifted a finger against LEJ, an organisation that has been widely reported as having close links to the security establishment, which has slaughtered thousands of Shias including children. Are those peoples' lives not as valuable ?

    One of the rare occasions they did was when Malik Ishaq was dumb enough to openly declare his allegiance to ISIS. When are we going to get Zarb-e-Azb on these sectarian goons who are even allowed to contest elections under various names ?

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    The naivety is shocking.

    People need to read, listen and see more. It is an indisputable fact that military establishment has never wanted peace and stability in the country. As long as the country is at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, the army will continue to pull the strings from the background.

    A prosperous, stable Pakistan means that military top brass will lose its relevance. This is not a new age phenomena - it has the been story of the country since its formation. The disproportionate resources allocated to the army has put them in a position where they can make the civilian government dance to their tunes.

    The fact that there are people in Pakistan who support the Army in spite of what they have done to the country simply reflects their ignorance. It is an institution that has sabotaged the government three times - leaving it in a worse position every single time. Not to forget the numerous failed coups, and let's not even talk about its role in the creation of the TTP when it decided to get in bed with the U.S.

    Now when the chickens have come home to roost, the army is taking credit for "successful operations" to destroy militant hideouts. It is an institution that has done more harm than Nawaz and Zardari put together, and has been a consistent and persistent threat to democracy.

    People can dream of a messiah and vote for the likes of Imran Khan, but the fact is that the GHQ will continue to run the show and dictate the foreign policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The naivety is shocking.

    People need to read, listen and see more. It is an indisputable fact that military establishment has never wanted peace and stability in the country. As long as the country is at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, the army will continue to pull the strings from the background.

    A prosperous, stable Pakistan means that military top brass will lose its relevance. This is not a new age phenomena - it has the been story of the country since its formation. The disproportionate resources allocated to the army has put them in a position where they can make the civilian government dance to their tunes.

    The fact that there are people in Pakistan who support the Army in spite of what they have done to the country simply reflects their ignorance. It is an institution that has sabotaged the government three times - leaving it in a worse position every single time. Not to forget the numerous failed coups, and let's not even talk about its role in the creation of the TTP when it decided to get in bed with the U.S.

    Now when the chickens have come home to roost, the army is taking credit for "successful operations" to destroy militant hideouts. It is an institution that has done more harm than Nawaz and Zardari put together, and has been a consistent and persistent threat to democracy.

    People can dream of a messiah and vote for the likes of Imran Khan, but the fact is that the GHQ will continue to run the show and dictate the foreign policy.
    Any details? Or something you just made up?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Any details? Or something you just made up?
    There is plenty of literature out there on the role of ISI in the creation of Taliban. It is not something that I made up and it is not a conspiracy. You can find many resources on this subject.

    'details' on this subject would mean a discussion of hundreds of pages. I would have been willing to oblige but unfortunately I am aware of the fact that you will not change your opinion because of your predisposition. After all, this is a topic that has been recycled a dozen times on PP.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    There is plenty of literature out there on the role of ISI in the creation of Taliban. It is not something that I made up and it is not a conspiracy. You can find many resources on this subject.

    'details' on this subject would mean a discussion of hundreds of pages. I would have been willing to oblige but unfortunately I am aware of the fact that you will not change your opinion because of your predisposition. After all, this is a topic that has been recycled a dozen times on PP.
    TTP is not the Taliban the Pakistani army supported in the mid 90s'.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    Are the top brass (the decision makers) losing their lives? Are their family members being put in the line of danger?

    It is difficult to justify military spending when there is stability and simply because their pet Hydra suddenly turned on them, doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

    Also a perpetual state of war be it hot or cold ferments sentiments which shut down any analysis of the Army's actions and motives as well as the inherent corruption.
    Yesterday's average soldiers are today's top brass so it doesn't matter whether top brass is losing lives because there is no single force knowingly putting their soldiers lives in danger.

    I don't know how people conveniently forget that security forces are still fighting war with Talibans/ISIS etc. Indians are running this whole Balochistan separation campaign and their proxies BLA just murdered 20 innocent people last week. Afghan terrorists also attacked a check post killing soldiers on the border so we are still fighting a war so quite silly to think this is all designed by Pak armed forces themselves to increase their budget???

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The naivety is shocking.

    People need to read, listen and see more. It is an indisputable fact that military establishment has never wanted peace and stability in the country. As long as the country is at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, the army will continue to pull the strings from the background.

    A prosperous, stable Pakistan means that military top brass will lose its relevance. This is not a new age phenomena - it has the been story of the country since its formation. The disproportionate resources allocated to the army has put them in a position where they can make the civilian government dance to their tunes.

    The fact that there are people in Pakistan who support the Army in spite of what they have done to the country simply reflects their ignorance. It is an institution that has sabotaged the government three times - leaving it in a worse position every single time. Not to forget the numerous failed coups, and let's not even talk about its role in the creation of the TTP when it decided to get in bed with the U.S.

    Now when the chickens have come home to roost, the army is taking credit for "successful operations" to destroy militant hideouts. It is an institution that has done more harm than Nawaz and Zardari put together, and has been a consistent and persistent threat to democracy.

    People can dream of a messiah and vote for the likes of Imran Khan, but the fact is that the GHQ will continue to run the show and dictate the foreign policy.
    Dude put down that koolaid and stop listening to Alex Jones and Modi propaganda. You're an educated guy but your sheer ignorance is dumbfounding. Conspiracy theories aren't gonna fix Pakistan's problems, you need to self reflect instead of turning the army into this imaginary boogeyman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miandadrules View Post
    Are the top brass (the decision makers) losing their lives? Are their family members being put in the line of danger?

    It is difficult to justify military spending when there is stability and simply because their pet Hydra suddenly turned on them, doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

    Also a perpetual state of war be it hot or cold ferments sentiments which shut down any analysis of the Army's actions and motives as well as the inherent corruption.
    Remember we were hearing statements like we have broken the back of terrorists in 2014/15/16, it was all foreign lobby appreciation gimmick, now we are back at mainstreaming islamist political parties, letting 4th schedule parties participate in elections and allowing Qadri flags to fly over everywhere...

    After that things go back to phase 1 when there is another deadly terrorist attack.

    It seems the state policies of annual dharna politics is the main tool to keeping the government in control.

    Ahsan Khan was thinking his interior ministry will not be 'a banana ministry' ... what a fools paradise he is living in

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Dude put down that koolaid and stop listening to Alex Jones and Modi propaganda. You're an educated guy but your sheer ignorance is dumbfounding. Conspiracy theories aren't gonna fix Pakistan's problems, you need to self reflect instead of turning the army into this imaginary boogeyman.
    Karachi's political situation is a recent example, engineered politics will not work, people will/have never accepted it.

    One of my friends from Punjab a very naive guy said told me 'kaisi baatain kar raha hai?' How will the army of our country plot against their own people''

    The naievity of that statement had me at a loss of words... I was shocked to see such statements come out from people who wanna defend the army at all costs..

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    Funny how keyboard warriors are quick to blame the army for ALL the ills in the country but if there is a crisis in the country it is the army that has to mobilize to fix it.

    There is earthquake or flood its not the politicians that get there or civil relief agencies, its the army, but as per these keyboard warriors the army's only role is to defend borders then why is it being called for relief measures?

    When politicians turn Karachi into a war-zone, it is the army yet again that is called in to fix it. But but but borders

    When Indian funded BLA runs amok with security in Baluchistan it is not the police or the political setup that fixes it but the army is called in to fix it.

    There are elections in Pakistan, even simple by-elections and, you guessed it, army is called in to oversee them and ensure security. But but but big bad army

    When China comes with a big full of money promising prosperity it is the army that is designated as the bodyguard for every Ting, Shin or Husang from China. Where are the politicians and the civilian institutions? But but but army is bad


    TTP has been crushed, militant wing of MQM has been demolished, BLA has been pretty much negated and the influx of militants from Afghanistan has been ended. There is bit of inertia to fix the LEJ problem because it serves our purpose in Kashmir. I would want LEJ to be handled so that they do not target Pakistanis, while continuing to serve our interests in Kashmir.

    So whenever the Pakistani nation needs help there is only one institution that stands up and takes responsibility while all the politicians since 1947 have just focused on stuffing their pockets. If the army has to come and fix everything then might as well give them the government, we won't be going anywhere with people like Sharif or Zardari running the show.

    Funny how the narrative of the desi liberal keyboard warriors perfectly mimics the narrative of Pakistan's biggest enemy, India.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The army in question has a patchy record at best. They 'purposefully' followed policies that lost half the country, purposefully supported rogue elements in Afghanistan during the Soviet war that is causing Pakistan a headache today, made the most laughable error by invading Kargil in 1999, and can't guarantee that you will be safe in a downtown Pakistani city same time next week.

    If you absolutely need to have an army that you want to support, this lot should be disbanded and you should start all over again. I'll give them 3/10 for effort.
    No city government can guarantee youll be safe in downtown next week, definitely no city government in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    Pakistan has a democratic elected government. Last government completed its term. It just both of them are corrupt to the core.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by www787 View Post
    No city government can guarantee youll be safe in downtown next week, definitely no city government in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    Pakistan has a democratic elected government. Last government completed its term. It just both of them are corrupt to the core.
    Yes and that has been the case since 1970s, nothings changed, 'corruption' has always been the reason for Martial laws and toppling governments.

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    It's not about any 'Mullah-Military' alliance, it's about the rabid obsession of Pakistanis with Islam. Pakistanis care more about their precious Islam than they care about Pakistan.

    Unless Pakistanis purge themselves of this obsessions, things will not normalize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Spot on! They have lost more soldiers in last decade than entire history (outside wars) in attacks carried out by Talibans/criminals/Indian & Afghan proxies so must be in their best interest to keep losing people and destabilize Pakistan right? It must be satisfying for them to see more attacks in Pakistan, APS attack, Naval base attack etc?
    No but the 2014 naval base attack wasn't possible without inside help - a number of naval officers were arrested afterwards. This is what happens when you radicalise your own population, including your elements of your own military by having it believe it is a Muslim Army, to achieve strategic purposes and ignore the blowback.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1135509

    One navy official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to talk to the press, said at least eight navy personnel had been arrested based on the attackers' phone records, including four aboard the Zulfiqar.

    Three serving mid-level lieutenant commanders from Karachi were also arrested in the western city of Quetta, allegedly trying to flee to Afghanistan two days after the botched raid, officials said.

  45. #45
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    Good job pakistanio , welldone.
    those who have guts to bash pakistani army on pakistani forum.

    , salute to those pakistanis who are sitting in thre comfy zone and hae never gt the bullet on thre chest and hae never guarding the borders of pakistan..

    guess what, next time when ISIS/Daesh knocking your door from afghan border thn they will also blame pakistani army for "creating" this mess.


    The Griffins ....

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewarrior View Post
    Good job pakistanio , welldone.
    those who have guts to bash pakistani army on pakistani forum.

    , salute to those pakistanis who are sitting in thre comfy zone and hae never gt the bullet on thre chest and hae never guarding the borders of pakistan..

    guess what, next time when ISIS/Daesh knocking your door from afghan border thn they will also blame pakistani army for "creating" this mess.
    You don;t need guts to criticize an institution whose past is chequered at best, at their worst you could say they have been Pak's biggest enemy (within) & none come close to the harm that the army's done in destruction of the dream of a true democracy that Jinnah once had.

    The many dictators & there misdeeds peak for themselves, the Pak hand in helping US during the Soviet invasion is undeniable, whatever happened afterwards, from the Afghan side is mostly your own fault!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    You don;t need guts to criticize an institution whose past is chequered at best, at their worst you could say they have been Pak's biggest enemy (within) & none come close to the harm that the army's done in destruction of the dream of a true democracy that Jinnah once had.

    The many dictators & there misdeeds peak for themselves, the Pak hand in helping US during the Soviet invasion is undeniable, whatever happened afterwards, from the Afghan side is mostly your own fault!
    our country, our rules.
    understand ?
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 20th November 2017 at 19:24.


    The Griffins ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    No but the 2014 naval base attack wasn't possible without inside help - a number of naval officers were arrested afterwards. This is what happens when you radicalise your own population, including your elements of your own military by having it believe it is a Muslim Army, to achieve strategic purposes and ignore the blowback.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1135509
    Ok so army is to blame for some of its own rogue elements? Have you been living in a cave and not seen how often rogue elements within the US Army turn their guns towards their own? How the heck do you propose the army stop it?



    Easy to talk away from behind a keyboard without suggesting alternates.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0H1T View Post
    You don;t need guts to criticize an institution whose past is chequered at best, at their worst you could say they have been Pak's biggest enemy (within) & none come close to the harm that the army's done in destruction of the dream of a true democracy that Jinnah once had.

    The many dictators & there misdeeds peak for themselves, the Pak hand in helping US during the Soviet invasion is undeniable, whatever happened afterwards, from the Afghan side is mostly your own fault!
    Pakistan will continue supporting any organization in Afghanistan if it means that it will bring stability to Afghanistan and not have their filth fall on us. That meant supporting the Afghan Taliban post Soviet era and it was working fine till 9/11. We do not need lecture on our foreign policy from an outsider.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    TTP is not the Taliban the Pakistani army supported in the mid 90s'.
    The apologist point of view is that the TTP (Pakistani Taliban) has nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban, and they are simply two distinct ideologies separated by the Durand Line. That is true, but only partially.

    The military's role in creating the Afghan Taliban to destabilize Kabul has had a significant influence on the formation of the TTP. A lot of faction that broke away from the Afghan Taliban played a key role in the formation of the TTP, and Baitullah Mehsud has drawn a lot of inspiration from Mullah Omar.

    Al-Qaeda itself has been able to back the TTP because of the destabilization of the region, thanks to the military and their decision to assist NATO.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewarrior View Post
    Good job pakistanio , welldone.
    those who have guts to bash pakistani army on pakistani forum.

    , salute to those pakistanis who are sitting in thre comfy zone and hae never gt the bullet on thre chest and hae never guarding the borders of pakistan..

    guess what, next time when ISIS/Daesh knocking your door from afghan border thn they will also blame pakistani army for "creating" this mess.
    Learn to differentiate between the military establishment/ISI and the common soldier. The establishment that is pulling the strings from the background are sitting in their comfort zones with zero accountability.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Dude put down that koolaid and stop listening to Alex Jones and Modi propaganda. You're an educated guy but your sheer ignorance is dumbfounding. Conspiracy theories aren't gonna fix Pakistan's problems, you need to self reflect instead of turning the army into this imaginary boogeyman.
    Your knowledge on Pakistan and its internal affairs is very elementary. You haven't spent much time in Pakistan (if any) and you clearly do not know how things work in this country. If I were you, I would refrain from passing generic comments on these threads, and calling everything a conspiracy without any knowledge.

  53. #53
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    The fact that there are people in Pakistan who are completely oblivious to the corruption of the military, and the damage that they have done to the country and the region, shows how good a job the military has done in maintaining its public image.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The fact that there are people in Pakistan who are completely oblivious to the corruption of the military, and the damage that they have done to the country and the region, shows how good a job the military has done in maintaining its public image.
    Helps when they can make people disappear. It's like that curtain analogy from stranger things.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Your knowledge on Pakistan and its internal affairs is very elementary. You haven't spent much time in Pakistan (if any) and you clearly do not know how things work in this country. If I were you, I would refrain from passing generic comments on these threads, and calling everything a conspiracy without any knowledge.
    Dude take off the tinfoil hat, targeting my American background makea you a racist. Expected better from you.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Ok so army is to blame for some of its own rogue elements? Have you been living in a cave and not seen how often rogue elements within the US Army turn their guns towards their own? How the heck do you propose the army stop it?



    Easy to talk away from behind a keyboard without suggesting alternates.
    One only needs to look at the history of Pakistan to see how this has happened. Since independence, the Pakistani military took it upon itself to defend not just the geographical borders of the country, but its ideological frontiers. Inheriting the British practice of institutionalising religion in the military to serve its goals, Pakistan's military chiefs took it further by creating an "ideological army" and used Islam for strategic purposes.

    Whilst Ayub never had desire to embark upon an Islamicising mission and sought to limit the role of ulema in government, he did use Islam to reinforce his rule. Despite his secular credentials, he founded the Council of Islamic Ideology which has turned out to be one of the most reactionary bodies in the country. The 1959 Sharif Commission review of educational policy invoked religion "for the purposes of national integration". The committee, led by drunkard Yahya of all people, that decided upon the name Islamabad for the new capital stated:

    This [the Islamic ideology] is the foremost justification for our existence and we cannot be true to Pakistan without being true to this ideology.
    As is common knowledge, Zia then preceded to embark upon an Islamisation project of which consequences are still felt. Zia stated the "preservation of the Islamic character of the country was as important as the security of our geographic boundaries". Unlike Ayub, Islam was used to legitimise his unconstitutional rule. Lacking a political constituency - the "military mullah alliance" that has nearly destroyed Pakistani society came of age. Zia promoted an intolerant, exclusionary brand of Islam funded by Saudi petrodollars that worsened sectarian divides and attitudes towards minorities. The textbooks were changed to glorify jihad in order to produce footsoldiers for the Afghan war thus a generation of children's minds were poisoned so Zia could execute the CIA's handiwork against the Soviets.

    Even enlightened moderate Musharraf spoke of Pakistan being a "fort of Islam" and the Military Mullah Alliance was literally formalised after the 2002 elections.

    So why is it surprising that Pakistan has a radicalisation problem, even within the military's own ranks in the form of "rogue elements" as you put it, that has manifested into violence devouring over 50,000 lives when the most powerful institution of the country has been feeding this nonsense to people for decades ? Why is it surprising people became brainwashed ? When you spend 40+ years glorifying jihad in the textbooks, why wouldn't we see jihadi groups be formed ?

    What was the alternative ? A military that is a normal fighting force that people can be proud of, designed to defend the countries borders, not an institution designed to propagate religion, change the country's schoolbooks, create national myths and further its own political objectives.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    One only needs to look at the history of Pakistan to see how this has happened. Since independence, the Pakistani military took it upon itself to defend not just the geographical borders of the country, but its ideological frontiers. Inheriting the British practice of institutionalising religion in the military to serve its goals, Pakistan's military chiefs took it further by creating an "ideological army" and used Islam for strategic purposes.

    Whilst Ayub never had desire to embark upon an Islamicising mission and sought to limit the role of ulema in government, he did use Islam to reinforce his rule. Despite his secular credentials, he founded the Council of Islamic Ideology which has turned out to be one of the most reactionary bodies in the country. The 1959 Sharif Commission review of educational policy invoked religion "for the purposes of national integration". The committee, led by drunkard Yahya of all people, that decided upon the name Islamabad for the new capital stated:



    As is common knowledge, Zia then preceded to embark upon an Islamisation project of which consequences are still felt. Zia stated the "preservation of the Islamic character of the country was as important as the security of our geographic boundaries". Unlike Ayub, Islam was used to legitimise his unconstitutional rule. Lacking a political constituency - the "military mullah alliance" that has nearly destroyed Pakistani society came of age. Zia promoted an intolerant, exclusionary brand of Islam funded by Saudi petrodollars that worsened sectarian divides and attitudes towards minorities. The textbooks were changed to glorify jihad in order to produce footsoldiers for the Afghan war thus a generation of children's minds were poisoned so Zia could execute the CIA's handiwork against the Soviets.

    Even enlightened moderate Musharraf spoke of Pakistan being a "fort of Islam" and the Military Mullah Alliance was literally formalised after the 2002 elections.

    So why is it surprising that Pakistan has a radicalisation problem, even within the military's own ranks in the form of "rogue elements" as you put it, that has manifested into violence devouring over 50,000 lives when the most powerful institution of the country has been feeding this nonsense to people for decades ? Why is it surprising people became brainwashed ? When you spend 40+ years glorifying jihad in the textbooks, why wouldn't we see jihadi groups be formed ?

    What was the alternative ? A military that is a normal fighting force that people can be proud of, designed to defend the countries borders, not an institution designed to propagate religion, change the country's schoolbooks, create national myths and further its own political objectives.
    Yes military has used the religion to its advantage, but for the average joe in Pakistan religion is perhaps the single most important thing in their lives. Heck most Pakistanis would rank their allegiance to Islam far higher than their allegiance to Pakistan. Most Pakistanis think of Pakistan as "Islam ki talwar" so it provides the army with a good unifying force in a nation split on many levels.

    Even politicians have done the same. Who can forget what ZAB did on the Ahmedi issue and how we are still suffering its repercussions. Nawaz Sharif wanted to declare himself Ameer-e-Momineen (big LOL) and has time and again used the support from radical elements to prop up his government. Quite rich to blame army only when the politicians have done the same.

    Apart from Zia, military rule has generally been better for Pakistan in terms of national development and economic progress.

    So why is it surprising that Pakistan has a radicalisation problem, even within the military's own ranks in the form of "rogue elements" as you put it, that has manifested into violence devouring over 50,000 lives when the most powerful institution of the country has been feeding this nonsense to people for decades ?

    Perhaps you need to go back and do a bit more studying, since it seems here you are suggesting that the army itself created and funded the TTP which has killed 70k Pakistanis and directly targeted the Pak Army.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Yes military has used the religion to its advantage, but for the average joe in Pakistan religion is perhaps the single most important thing in their lives. Heck most Pakistanis would rank their allegiance to Islam far higher than their allegiance to Pakistan. Most Pakistanis think of Pakistan as "Islam ki talwar" so it provides the army with a good unifying force in a nation split on many levels.
    That's because they've been brainwashed by the state over decades thanks to manipulation of the education system and the press. Pakistan was never as religiously conservative pre-1970s as it has been recently. It was a mainstream, traditional Sunni Muslim state with a rich history and heritage of Sufism, but thanks to decisions by various rulers it has allowed a Saudi funded extreme Deobandism to fester.
    Even politicians have done the same. Who can forget what ZAB did on the Ahmedi issue and how we are still suffering its repercussions. Nawaz Sharif wanted to declare himself Ameer-e-Momineen (big LOL) and has time and again used the support from radical elements to prop up his government. Quite rich to blame army only when the politicians have done the same.
    I agree but this thread is titled the Military Mullah Alliance in case you missed it.

    No doubt politicians have made alliances with religious parties to secure their vote bank. However these religious parties have only gained its relevance and strength we see today thanks to the security establishment's patronage and co-opting of them since the 80s, and both ZAB and Nawaz came under the tutelage of military rulers lest we forget.

    Perhaps you need to go back and do a bit more studying, since it seems here you are suggesting that the army itself created and funded the TTP which has killed 70k Pakistanis and directly targeted the Pak Army.
    There's a subtle difference between creating the ideology that led to formation of groups like TTP, and actually suggesting they created it which wasn't what I said. However the TTP were an offshoot of the Afghan Taliban which was once our pet project in the 90s.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Learn to differentiate between the military establishment/ISI and the common soldier. The establishment that is pulling the strings from the background are sitting in their comfort zones with zero accountability.

    height of ignorance.
    Dont poke your nose when you dont even know the difference between establishment and military/ISI.


    The Griffins ....

  60. #60
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    looks like every second person on this forum is a defence analyst or relative or, like someone who can gve shut up call to chief of MI.
    be it doctor or engineer. and they know more thn govt and army/ISI and also know how to solve the complicated issues in simple manner.


    The Griffins ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The apologist point of view is that the TTP (Pakistani Taliban) has nothing to do with the Afghani Taliban, and they are simply two distinct ideologies separated by the Durand Line. That is true, but only partially.

    The military's role in creating the Afghan Taliban to destabilize Kabul has had a significant influence on the formation of the TTP. A lot of faction that broke away from the Afghan Taliban played a key role in the formation of the TTP, and Baitullah Mehsud has drawn a lot of inspiration from Mullah Omar.

    Al-Qaeda itself has been able to back the TTP because of the destabilization of the region, thanks to the military and their decision to assist NATO.
    This pretty much proves you are clueless and are just repeating what you have read in some tabloid.

    The military did not create the Taliban to destablise Kabul. Kabul was already in ruins due to civil war. The Taliban emerged by itself and once they won the civil war, Pakistan naturally backed the rulers of Afghanistan for national interests. A LOT did not break away , just a few members who are paid mercianieres of the CIA and India recurituing vunerable young men to join thier cause and kill while they sit merry in Kabul.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    This pretty much proves you are clueless and are just repeating what you have read in some tabloid.

    The military did not create the Taliban to destablise Kabul. Kabul was already in ruins due to civil war. The Taliban emerged by itself and once they won the civil war, Pakistan naturally backed the rulers of Afghanistan for national interests. A LOT did not break away , just a few members who are paid mercianieres of the CIA and India recurituing vunerable young men to join thier cause and kill while they sit merry in Kabul.

    This is false. Its common knowledge that the ttp was formed during the soviet union war in afghanistan by the ISI. After the war the ISI directed them towards the kashmir insurgency and propelled a proxy war...Its been hell on Kashmir and India ever since and India has been trying to pick up the pieces and recover to this day...The rest they say is history as India then had to play the same game back ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snak3eye5 View Post
    This is false. Its common knowledge that the ttp was formed during the soviet union war in afghanistan by the ISI. After the war the ISI directed them towards the kashmir insurgency and propelled a proxy war...Its been hell on Kashmir and India ever since and India has been trying to pick up the pieces and recover to this day...The rest they say is history as India then had to play the same game back ....
    lol

    Find me ONE article from a repubtable media source which states this or ONE which even mentions the TTP prior to 2003.


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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
    It's not about any 'Mullah-Military' alliance, it's about the rabid obsession of Pakistanis with Islam. Pakistanis care more about their precious Islam than they care about Pakistan.

    Unless Pakistanis purge themselves of this obsessions, things will not normalize.
    This is true and for some reason pakistani public thinks army is different from other pakistani's. How can Army be any different than most of us when they are pakistani themselves. They have the good and the bad what they do depends who comes into power. Army has used mullah's in the past so will always be suspected for it in present and the future.
    Allowing militias to be formed in Pakistan to fight Russia in Afghanistan and India in Kashmir has resulted in the militaristic wings of religious parties. And they were able to get military hardware when guns meant for Afghan war with Russia stayed in Pakistan because of corruption in our military who were in power at the time.


    "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought"-JFK

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    lol

    Find me ONE article from a repubtable media source which states this or ONE which even mentions the TTP prior to 2003.
    I have nothing to gain from spreading false info. Its all in the history books...But here is an excerpt from the below link

    https://thediplomat.com/2014/06/the-...n-afghanistan/

    For four decades, Pakistan’s spy-generals have played Afghanistan like a powerful chip in a consequential game of poker. They know the important local militants, have open channels to their favorite groups, and regularly play various groups against the Western coalition. The twin justifications for the aggressive intervention in Afghan affairs are India and American withdrawal. Since Pakistan’s humiliating dissection at Indian and nascent Bangladeshi hands in 1971, Islamabad’s doctrine vis--vis Afghanistan has been known as strategic depth. For the ISI, Afghanistan is to be a safety net should the delusional prediction that India will invade a weaker Pakistan actually come true.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snak3eye5 View Post
    I have nothing to gain from spreading false info. Its all in the history books...But here is an excerpt from the below link

    https://thediplomat.com/2014/06/the-...n-afghanistan/

    For four decades, Pakistan’s spy-generals have played Afghanistan like a powerful chip in a consequential game of poker. They know the important local militants, have open channels to their favorite groups, and regularly play various groups against the Western coalition. The twin justifications for the aggressive intervention in Afghan affairs are India and American withdrawal. Since Pakistan’s humiliating dissection at Indian and nascent Bangladeshi hands in 1971, Islamabad’s doctrine vis--vis Afghanistan has been known as strategic depth. For the ISI, Afghanistan is to be a safety net should the delusional prediction that India will invade a weaker Pakistan actually come true.
    The Afghan Taliban and TTP are 2 different organizations, you're an idiot for not understanding this basic fact.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    No but the 2014 naval base attack wasn't possible without inside help - a number of naval officers were arrested afterwards. This is what happens when you radicalise your own population, including your elements of your own military by having it believe it is a Muslim Army, to achieve strategic purposes and ignore the blowback.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1135509
    You are mixing two different issues together. Radicalisation is a totally different issue and it is across the board, absolutely nothing to do with Army. If anything radicalisation in Army is less of an issue compared to rest of society as it's a strong institution and there is much more check and balance (Only risk being mad individuals like Zia rising in the ranks).

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewarrior View Post
    looks like every second person on this forum is a defence analyst or relative or, like someone who can gve shut up call to chief of MI.
    be it doctor or engineer. and they know more thn govt and army/ISI and also know how to solve the complicated issues in simple manner.
    Yes, however even worse are Sabir Shakir, Arshad Hussain, Sami Khan and Amir Liaquat Hussain, payroll stooges of the army on different channels. We don't even get paid millions for writing our bss and these people are poisoning millions of minds on TV with their fake information, lying to the people, and creating mass hysteria begging for martial law to happen, and ogle fantasies about army rule daily.

    Atleast you know we don't have an agenda of boot polish on our hands.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Pakistan will continue supporting any organization in Afghanistan if it means that it will bring stability to Afghanistan and not have their filth fall on us. That meant supporting the Afghan Taliban post Soviet era and it was working fine till 9/11. We do not need lecture on our foreign policy from an outsider.
    Right & you should focus on your own house, because fake propaganda seems to be a thing certain Pakistanis love to spread!
    @defencepk suspended by twitter for posting photoshopped pics of Indian student activist
    https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/co...r_for_posting/

    Also I live here, in South Asia, have more at stake than someone residing in NA, spare me your love of the motherland. If you truly love your country, more than yourself, then come over here & help others get rid of leeches like Nawaz Sharif or rogue elements in the army, if not you're all hot air!

  70. #70
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    POST-2008 politics has followed a few unstated rules based on the twin cities having a tacit no-nuclear-first-strike pact in place. Pindi will not use its nuclear option (coup) first if Islamabad doesnt first use its nuclear option (clipping Pindis wings). Politicians will rule but Pindi will run the security and foreign policy domains. In return, Pindi will avoid politicking if its core powers arent threatened.

    Zardari tried putting the ISI under civilian control reportedly under US advice. But faced with a furious backlash from the security establishment, he gave up soon and remained meek subsequently. Nawaz too kept his desire for civilian supremacy well under check. Yet, despite civilian meekness, this elite political pact appears to be unravelling after 10 years. There are many hints, perhaps even evidence, that Pindi is becoming restive and, like in the 1990s, wants to covertly manage politics even when its core interests are not threatened.

    The targets are seemingly our main parties. Early signs emerged in 2015. Carried away by its success in crushing violence in Karachi, the security establishment perhaps felt it could end sleaze too. Whether the intent was really this or merely bringing to heel politicians, the anti-PPP drive failed. This month, further signs emerged with the failed attempt to arrange a marriage between the MQM-P and PSP.

    Finally, in the PML-Ns case there are more hints than evidence. The PML-N leaders hint at the establishments hand in Sharifs disqualification. The verdict itself is so weak it encourages speculation whether an elected prime minister would be evicted on such flimsy grounds without establishment support. Sharif faces more solid proof of sleaze in NAB cases. So, the unfair de-seating may soon become moot. But it has instigated political instability. The electoral entrance of fringe religious groups and rumours about mysterious calls being made to PML-N MNAs further muddy the water.

    Rumours about minus-three, even minus-four formulae (Altaf, Zardari, Nawaz and Imran) had started appearing in 2015 on social media. As of today, Altaf stands fully eliminated and Nawaz partially so. Imrans fate is in balance in the court and ECP cases. Of course, all this may not be the result of plotting since our politicians carry sufficient skeletons in their closets to convict them. But engineering is not the right strategy for removing the gaps in our politics. So while the proof may not yet be solid enough to strongly accuse Pindi, the hints are strong enough to put out a cautionary note against devising such a strategy given past failures.

    Such forays into politics are seen as the result of the follies of politicians. There are two variants to this logic. The first assigns noble aims to Pindi: politicians mess things so much that it has to intervene. But politicians have never messed things so badly. In fact, dictators have messed things more. The second variant is more cynical. It argues that the follies of politicians allow Pindi to grab power in the garb of being saviour. This variant is closer to our situation. But there is nothing inevitable even about it. There are many states where governance is also poor but where there are no deep states itching to step in. In fact, among major states, such temptations afflict establishments now only in a small group which can aptly be called the TEMPT (Thailand, Egypt, Myanmar, Pakistan and Turkey) Club.

    Yet, there is strong support for such politicking among many educated people who view politics via only a moral lens. Such a lens is critical but when used alone it creates unrealistic demands for unconditional, full and instant change. Thus, it must be supplemented with a political economy lens which provides better strategies and realistic time frames for political change.

    The PML-N and MQM are currently the two parties facing the most flux. There is much thats wrong with them when viewed from a moral lens. But a political economy lens helps in analysing how some of their follies emerge from strong needs within society and not just the evil aims of their leaders. The MQM is being asked to give up its name and ethnic politics based on the view that these serve only the needs of its leaders. But more than jobs and flyovers, the MQM provides a sense of unity and identity to Mohajirs. Defanging its violent arms is proper; forcing it to abandon ethnic politics is not.

    Similarly, the PML-N is the embodiment of patronage and dynastic politics which produces sleaze. Controlling sleaze is necessary but only via civilian accountability tools and sound verdicts. But trying to demolish the PML-N instantly can affect Punjabs broader political economy that thrives on patronage.

    This all thus requires patient handling rather than crude political engineering by arrogant elements.
    A pertinent piece in Dawn today.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1371800/taming-politics

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    This pretty much proves you are clueless and are just repeating what you have read in some tabloid.

    The military did not create the Taliban to destablise Kabul. Kabul was already in ruins due to civil war. The Taliban emerged by itself and once they won the civil war, Pakistan naturally backed the rulers of Afghanistan for national interests. A LOT did not break away , just a few members who are paid mercianieres of the CIA and India recurituing vunerable young men to join thier cause and kill while they sit merry in Kabul.
    And the irony of you calling me clueless. The ignorance is not only shocking but also beyond redemption.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewarrior View Post
    height of ignorance.
    Dont poke your nose when you dont even know the difference between establishment and military/ISI.
    I think the steam that is coming out of year ears is meddling with your thinking. Now I understand that you have a soft spot for the armed force, but the fact is that the true establishment (or umpire, as Imran Khan calls them) is the military and its ISI wing.

    The political establishment is just a puppet of the military establishment, and that has been this country's biggest tragedy. Political institutions have not been allowed to develop because of the influence of the military.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    Dude take off the tinfoil hat, targeting my American background makea you a racist. Expected better from you.
    Racist?

    You are an American-Pakistani, which means that you are not a White American, and thus my comment has nothing to do with your 'American background'.

    It doesn't matter if you were born and bred in the U.S. That has nothing to do with your uninformed views on Pakistan and Pakistani politics. All you do is accuse other people of wearing tinfoil hats without providing any insightful discourse that supports the contrary argument.

    Anyway, I don't mind apologizing if you felt offended. That was not my intention at all.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    A pertinent piece in Dawn today.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1371800/taming-politics
    Nawaz may have stashed billions away (Read about Hudaibia paper mills case which is mother of all corruption) but don't touch him otherwise democracy is in danger. There could be documentaries about their monet laundering, book written on their corruption and family name in international leaks but it is all a conspiracy by Pak establishment.

    You can't target Zardari because it's attack on democracy, his right hand Uzair Baloch may have killed many people for him and collected bhatta (paying millions to Zardari's sister Faryal).


    MQM kills hundreds of people, you can't touch them because it's attack on democracy & Muhajirs. They can burn 250 in a factory for failing to pay bhatta and literally destroy Karachi.

    Obviously it's none of military's business to punish them but there is plenty of evidence and even Supreme court decisions but we are told all Supreme court judges are also playing military's game.

    So it come down to NAB, police, SECP, FBR etc who work more like personal servants for ruling elite which means no one should ever pay for their crimes. This is what has happened and some people want this to continue....lagay raho!
    Last edited by Waseem; 21st November 2017 at 10:43.

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    From this thread it seems that Pakistanis are forbidden from criticizing the Pakistani army.

    Even if they are the paragons of constructing a healthy society with safe borders (which they are not), they shouldn't be exempt from analysis and potential negative judgement. But those who do are quickly shot down, with the 'politicians are no better' line being prattled out. Well, I don't think Pakistani army critics have any love lost for politicians either, but they recognize that the said politicians and their parties can be disposed off at the polling booth when the time comes, while the army has had 5-7 year bursts where they have only managed to fly the country to the ground - albeit with some good PR.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    From this thread it seems that Pakistanis are forbidden from criticizing the Pakistani army.

    Even if they are the paragons of constructing a healthy society with safe borders (which they are not), they shouldn't be exempt from analysis and potential negative judgement. But those who do are quickly shot down, with the 'politicians are no better' line being prattled out. Well, I don't think Pakistani army critics have any love lost for politicians either, but they recognize that the said politicians and their parties can be disposed off at the polling booth when the time comes, while the army has had 5-7 year bursts where they have only managed to fly the country to the ground - albeit with some good PR.
    This is absolutely correct. The one safeguard you have with politicians is that you can vote them out at the end of five years - assuming they haven't stripped the country bare of it's assets by that time - with the army the public basically is stuck indefinitely. As I have said many times previously as well, who is to say the army generals themselves can't be bought off by foreign powers who can then milk the country indefinitely?

    That said, the reason the military influence has lasted so long in Pakistan is because, rightly or wrongly, the public trust them more than the politicians or more unfortunately, the media.


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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I think the steam that is coming out of year ears is meddling with your thinking. Now I understand that you have a soft spot for the armed force, but the fact is that the true establishment (or umpire, as Imran Khan calls them) is the military and its ISI wing.

    The political establishment is just a puppet of the military establishment, and that has been this country's biggest tragedy. Political institutions have not been allowed to develop because of the influence of the military.
    i have seen already some steam coming out from the ears from the NORA lovers when the verdict cmes against him. you were no where to be seen.
    so yeah, i am guilty for loving my country's armed forces.
    so who will protect us when ISIS will come knocking the door from afghan border ?
    who will protect us when the police cant save thir own lives, so forgt to protect citizens.
    who will protect karachi the financial HUB of pakistan, from gangsters and mafia like, uzair baloch etc ? becoz police dont have full authority to take action becoz of the ppp govt in sindh.

    I think we should call the armed forces back to thre bunkers and leave the security issues in the hand of our "competent" noora and zardari lovers . so they can send the Militia of thre "matwalay" and "jiyalay" on borders to fight ISIS/TTP or in karachi etc or in the time of natural disaster etc.
    Last edited by Lonewarrior; 21st November 2017 at 12:14.


    The Griffins ....

  78. #78
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    Funny how desi liberals are all of a sudden up in arms against the military just because a corrupt politician was sent home.



    Long live Pak Army, keep hunting these corrupt politicians.





    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    From this thread it seems that Pakistanis are forbidden from criticizing the Pakistani army.

    Even if they are the paragons of constructing a healthy society with safe borders (which they are not), they shouldn't be exempt from analysis and potential negative judgement. But those who do are quickly shot down, with the 'politicians are no better' line being prattled out. Well, I don't think Pakistani army critics have any love lost for politicians either, but they recognize that the said politicians and their parties can be disposed off at the polling booth when the time comes, while the army has had 5-7 year bursts where they have only managed to fly the country to the ground - albeit with some good PR.



    Why do you guys meddle in matters in which you have limited knowledge?



    There is no such thing as "voting out of office" in Pakistan. The people just keep voting for the same people over and over again. The people of interior Sindh have been voting for Bhutto for the last 40 years even though the Bhuttos and their darbaris have kept them purposefully the poorest people in the country. Heck even educated and socially aware Lahore elected Nawaz Sharif's wife a month after SC declared him a liar and a thief and even though the lady was ill and lying in a bed in London and never campaigned.

    So don't give us the lecture of "voting out of office" because that is the furthest thing from reality.


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay

  80. #80
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    Current account deficit is sky-rocketing... economy is plummeting... Certain CPEC projects are in disarray... but the popularly elected finance minister is chilling in London and refuses to resign and nobody and their aunt can make him do so.




    but but but army is bad for country


    #Hum apko container deingaye dharnay ke liyay


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