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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Current account deficit is sky-rocketing... economy is plummeting... Certain CPEC projects are in disarray... but the popularly elected finance minister is chilling in London and refuses to resign and nobody and their aunt can make him do so.
    You can make him do so. Just head to the voting booth next year and press the right button - the one for Imran Khan. If everyone else does the same, you've got your wish. If they still vote for a Sharif, then tough luck, but the people have spoken (pressed a button) and you can throw in the towel.

    I think this is futile advice though. It seems you live outside of Pakistan and the extent of your patriotism is only posting one/two-liners with smileys.

    At least know that you can't even push a button to call the army in. They'll drive in with tanks as and when they please. So do you even know what you are hoping for with your opinions on this thread?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You can make him do so. Just head to the voting booth next year and press the right button - the one for Imran Khan. If everyone else does the same, you've got your wish. If they still vote for a Sharif, then tough luck, but the people have spoken (pressed a button) and you can throw in the towel.

    I think this is futile advice though. It seems you live outside of Pakistan and the extent of your patriotism is only posting one/two-liners with smileys.

    At least know that you can't even push a button to call the army in. They'll drive in with tanks as and when they please. So do you even know what you are hoping for with your opinions on this thread?
    So the people in this thread majority of whom who have been born and raised in foreign countries and the only links they have to the country is that their parents hail from there and they have to grudgingly visit it every few years to meet relatives are more patriotic because they are parroting what you are saying (or want them to say)?


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    So the people in this thread majority of whom who have been born and raised in foreign countries and the only links they have to the country is that their parents hail from there and they have to grudgingly visit it every few years to meet relatives are more patriotic because they are parroting what you are saying (or want them to say)?
    No. I'm saying those people are hot air because they don't act on their opinions. This is the reason why Imran Khan is not PM of Pakistan - half of his voter base is outside of Pakistan and going by this thread secretly hope for an army coup over him by the looks of it.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    No. I'm saying those people are hot air because they don't act on their opinions. This is the reason why Imran Khan is not PM of Pakistan - half of his voter base is outside of Pakistan and going by this thread secretly hope for an army coup over him by the looks of it.
    That is because IK has very less chance of staging a political upheaval and ever being PM, the likes of Nawaz and Zardari will continue to be elected and forming governments. You are coming from the mindset that the army is evil, but in the Pakistani context army rule is definitely the lesser evil by quite a margin and then some.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  5. #85
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    https://www.geo.tv/latest/168649-num...ll-in-na-today



    This is your jamhoriat.... a parliament of elected representatives REJECTS a bill to restrict a convicted person from heading a party so that one person can be saved.



    All hail democracy. Democracy is the best revenge.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    And the irony of you calling me clueless. The ignorance is not only shocking but also beyond redemption.
    He's right though, Afghanistan was already war torn before the Taliban because of ethnic conflict. Pakistan later created the Taliban cause Afghanistan supporting separatists in Pakistan, you know the history and how Afghanistan doesn't recognize the border and claims half of Pakistan until the Indus. You either don't know this fact or support it, that shows where your allegiance lies.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    https://www.geo.tv/latest/168649-num...ll-in-na-today



    This is your jamhoriat.... a parliament of elected representatives REJECTS a bill to restrict a convicted person from heading a party so that one person can be saved.



    All hail democracy. Democracy is the best revenge.
    Nothing wrong with that....its a decision by representatives of people. Learn to respect that, whatever opinion you might hold about them.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Nothing wrong with that....its a decision by representatives of people. Learn to respect that, whatever opinion you might hold about them.
    Nothing wrong with that?


    Nothing wrong with that?????????



    If tomorrow these bloody politicians sell the country we should say nothing wrong with that its the will of the people???????????????




    Desi liberals and their crappy logic


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Nothing wrong with that?


    Nothing wrong with that?????????



    If tomorrow these bloody politicians sell the country we should say nothing wrong with that its the will of the people???????????????




    Desi liberals and their crappy logic
    It's not liberal or crappy logic, it's the basis of democracy. Basically you make your own bed and you lie in it. Unless you live in Pakistan you basically shouldn't be telling people how to vote. That's not directed at you personally, just foreign based commentators in general. If Pakistani people want to vote for criminals and thieves, that's their prerogative as far as I'm concerned, they are the ones who will live with the consequences, not me.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Nothing wrong with that?


    Nothing wrong with that?????????



    If tomorrow these bloody politicians sell the country we should say nothing wrong with that its the will of the people???????????????




    Desi liberals and their crappy logic

    Yes, people of Pakistan have elected them to parliament to make decisions on their behalf. That's how modern democracies work. If you see any flaws with that, next year is election time maybe someone better can fix all that. This is a system that needs to evolve and iron out these little problems.

    And stop giving that "politicians sell country" **. Army was single biggest entity in breakup of East Pakistan, first you should own up to their crimes.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Yes, people of Pakistan have elected them to parliament to make decisions on their behalf. That's how modern democracies work. If you see any flaws with that, next year is election time maybe someone better can fix all that. This is a system that needs to evolve and iron out these little problems.

    And stop giving that "politicians sell country" **. Army was single biggest entity in breakup of East Pakistan, first you should own up to their crimes.
    Army was the single biggest entity and not ZAB who refused to accept the mandate of East Pakistan?


    Perhaps you need to educate yourself before trying to give us a lecture and act all smart.


    Infact the premise of your thread has been dispelled already. You came up a he said, she said story about how this protest is being backed by the army and it has clearly been refuted by myself and other posters, now you are left with taking pot shots and spewing nonsense like "nothing wrong with it"


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    https://www.geo.tv/latest/168649-num...ll-in-na-today



    This is your jamhoriat.... a parliament of elected representatives REJECTS a bill to restrict a convicted person from heading a party so that one person can be saved.



    All hail democracy. Democracy is the best revenge.
    I agree that it sucks, but Mullahism is not going to take us anywhere.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Yes, people of Pakistan have elected them to parliament to make decisions on their behalf. That's how modern democracies work. If you see any flaws with that, next year is election time maybe someone better can fix all that. This is a system that needs to evolve and iron out these little problems.

    And stop giving that "politicians sell country" **. Army was single biggest entity in breakup of East Pakistan, first you should own up to their crimes.
    It was gonna break up anyways, do you notice the thousands of miles of distance, India being an between, and other factors. Can't blame the military for everything.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxamax View Post
    I agree that it sucks, but Mullahism is not going to take us anywhere.
    Agreed


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Funny how keyboard warriors are quick to blame the army for ALL the ills in the country but if there is a crisis in the country it is the army that has to mobilize to fix it.

    There is earthquake or flood its not the politicians that get there or civil relief agencies, its the army, but as per these keyboard warriors the army's only role is to defend borders then why is it being called for relief measures?

    When politicians turn Karachi into a war-zone, it is the army yet again that is called in to fix it. But but but borders

    When Indian funded BLA runs amok with security in Baluchistan it is not the police or the political setup that fixes it but the army is called in to fix it.

    There are elections in Pakistan, even simple by-elections and, you guessed it, army is called in to oversee them and ensure security. But but but big bad army

    When China comes with a big full of money promising prosperity it is the army that is designated as the bodyguard for every Ting, Shin or Husang from China. Where are the politicians and the civilian institutions? But but but army is bad


    TTP has been crushed, militant wing of MQM has been demolished, BLA has been pretty much negated and the influx of militants from Afghanistan has been ended. There is bit of inertia to fix the LEJ problem because it serves our purpose in Kashmir. I would want LEJ to be handled so that they do not target Pakistanis, while continuing to serve our interests in Kashmir.

    So whenever the Pakistani nation needs help there is only one institution that stands up and takes responsibility while all the politicians since 1947 have just focused on stuffing their pockets. If the army has to come and fix everything then might as well give them the government, we won't be going anywhere with people like Sharif or Zardari running the show.

    Funny how the narrative of the desi liberal keyboard warriors perfectly mimics the narrative of Pakistan's biggest enemy, India.
    Game. Set. Match.

    I came here to say the same thing but seems some posters have grudges with the army for the most pathetic of reasons.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Yes, people of Pakistan have elected them to parliament to make decisions on their behalf. That's how modern democracies work. If you see any flaws with that, next year is election time maybe someone better can fix all that. This is a system that needs to evolve and iron out these little problems.

    And stop giving that "politicians sell country" **. Army was single biggest entity in breakup of East Pakistan, first you should own up to their crimes.
    WHAT???

    It was ZA Bhutto The Great not the army.

    Can't believe people still take his name with such respect for giving charismatic speeches and shredding the pages of his speech in front of the world. There hasn't been a single decent foreign investor in Pakistan ever since Nationalization. His lust for power lost us East Pakistan. His son-in-law and daughter have done literally nothing for the country and yet we hear "Bhutto ajj bhi zinda hai"

  17. #97
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    Just curious. Can the army not have corrupt elements? Why are they exempt from critique? Ya phir har army ka banda doodh se dhula hota hai?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan Sasuke View Post
    Just curious. Can the army not have corrupt elements? Why are they exempt from critique? Ya phir har army ka banda doodh se dhula hota hai?
    They seem to have fantastic PR, what with that curated 'ISPR' thing.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    They seem to have fantastic PR, what with that curated 'ISPR' thing.
    ISPR falls in with our habit of romanticising everything relating to the army. Everything good happens because of the army, and everything bad happens because of politicians. People fail to realise that just like the sharifs and zardaris, there is corruption in the army too. Accountability should be for both institutions.

  20. #100
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    When will Pakistan rid itself of the rotten culture that plagues and get rid of the corrupt politicians that will do anything, including selling their own mothers and destroying the country for money - and that too at the behest of foreign powers? That's the question you need to be asking yourself here. Pakistan's army is not the people's enemy and they don't partner with the mullahs - who need to be destroyed in order for law and order to prevail and stabilize the country.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    And the irony of you calling me clueless. The ignorance is not only shocking but also beyond redemption.
    But you dont have the ability to enlighten me?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    WHAT???

    It was ZA Bhutto The Great not the army.

    Can't believe people still take his name with such respect for giving charismatic speeches and shredding the pages of his speech in front of the world. There hasn't been a single decent foreign investor in Pakistan ever since Nationalization. His lust for power lost us East Pakistan. His son-in-law and daughter have done literally nothing for the country and yet we hear "Bhutto ajj bhi zinda hai"
    Bhutto's double games and incendiary statements antagonised the Bengalis but to ignore the military's role would be denying historical fact. Before the 1970 election, Yahya introduced the Legal Framework Order which gave him power to veto any constitution prepared by an elected assembly, demonstrating that the military wouldn't countenance handing over power to any party either in the Western or Eastern wing, that it perceived as undermining its interests no matter the verdict of the people.

    Brigadier A.R. Siddiqi, the head of the ISPR, wrote "the right of a provincial party to frame the Constitution and run the national government for the next five years was not acceptable to the military high command." Simply put, the generals would not transfer power.

    Whilst the talks between Mujib and Bhutto were deadlocked, the talks never broke down as per the common view but unilaterally abandoned on the orders of Yahya and his hawks in the NSC with their military action. The tragedy is that Mujib's conception of a free Bengali nation was not incompatible with something less than an independent, sovereign state. Awami League sent proposals even as late as March 1971 for a Confederation of Pakistan, allowing PPP to govern West Pakistan.

    Ultimately, Yahya had decided on military action months before and behaved like his British predecessors in playing a game of divide and rule - pitting the PPP and the Awami League against each other whilst plans to roll in the tanks were drawn up. It was drunkard Yahya who postponed the National Assembly session for 3rd March 1971 and didn't announce an alternative date resulting in violent protests in the East. Bhutto obviously inflamed the situation by boycotting the NA session leading to an impression of collusion and that he was stalling at Yahya's behest.

    There were honourable exceptions within the military - the governor of East Pakistan Admiral Ahsan and General Sahibzada Yaqub Khan, commander of the eastern forces, resigned as they rightly saw no good in abandoning political dialogue and pursuing the military course that proved disasterous.

    Secession was not inevitable, even with the distance between the two wing. It was the West Pakistani elite's treatment of East Pakistan as a vast colonial possession, and a refusal to decipher between calls for autonomy and secession, that drove them away.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Bhutto's double games and incendiary statements antagonised the Bengalis but to ignore the military's role would be denying historical fact. Before the 1970 election, Yahya introduced the Legal Framework Order which gave him power to veto any constitution prepared by an elected assembly, demonstrating that the military wouldn't countenance handing over power to any party either in the Western or Eastern wing, that it perceived as undermining its interests no matter the verdict of the people.

    Brigadier A.R. Siddiqi, the head of the ISPR, wrote "the right of a provincial party to frame the Constitution and run the national government for the next five years was not acceptable to the military high command." Simply put, the generals would not transfer power.

    Whilst the talks between Mujib and Bhutto were deadlocked, the talks never broke down as per the common view but unilaterally abandoned on the orders of Yahya and his hawks in the NSC with their military action. The tragedy is that Mujib's conception of a free Bengali nation was not incompatible with something less than an independent, sovereign state. Awami League sent proposals even as late as March 1971 for a Confederation of Pakistan, allowing PPP to govern West Pakistan.

    Ultimately, Yahya had decided on military action months before and behaved like his British predecessors in playing a game of divide and rule - pitting the PPP and the Awami League against each other whilst plans to roll in the tanks were drawn up. It was drunkard Yahya who postponed the National Assembly session for 3rd March 1971 and didn't announce an alternative date resulting in violent protests in the East. Bhutto obviously inflamed the situation by boycotting the NA session leading to an impression of collusion and that he was stalling at Yahya's behest.

    There were honourable exceptions within the military - the governor of East Pakistan Admiral Ahsan and General Sahibzada Yaqub Khan, commander of the eastern forces, resigned as they rightly saw no good in abandoning political dialogue and pursuing the military course that proved disasterous.

    Secession was not inevitable, even with the distance between the two wing. It was the West Pakistani elite's treatment of East Pakistan as a vast colonial possession, and a refusal to decipher between calls for autonomy and secession, that drove them away.
    A good summary. Bhutto was not blameless. Ambitious and thirsting for power, Sisson and Rose in their work on the events of 1971, report that a senior minister had observed to Yahya Khan that if Bhutto ‘did not assume power within a year he would literally go mad’. Others have suggested that Bhutto was motivated by a fear, shared by senior leadership of the PPP, that the party would become divided if it did not achieve a share of power at the centre. The PPP was a broad based movement, encompassing a range of interests, rather than a class based party. This gave it certain fragility and limited Bhutto’s room for manoeuvre. He also was wary of losing support in West Pakistan if he was seen to cave in too readily to Mujib’s demands.

    Yet, for all this, many apportion the blame firmly towards the military for the reasons outlined by Markhor. Playing a game of divide and rule the army were reluctant to transfer power in any way which undermined their dominance. The leading Pakistani historian, Ayesha Jalal, in her work on The State of Martial Rule, wrote that “Even if they wanted to, Mujib and Bhutto could not palpably arrive at any formula to share power without the implicit approval of the praetorian guard and mandarins.”

    Whichever way we choose to point the finger at the main players in 1971, we should also not lose sight of the medium term and events of the 1960s. Military rule under Ayub had exacerbated tensions between the two wings. Power lay firmly with the military and bureaucracy, two institutions in which the Bengali presence was marginal. This not only contributed to alienation in East Pakistan, but meant the West Pakistani elite were distanced and insulated from Bengali interests, becoming dangerously out of touch with the ground reality in East Pakistan. The Agartala conspiracy case also backfired and in fact only raised Mujib’s standing. Economically, interregional disparity between West and East Pakistan had increased under military rule. Per capita income in 1949/50, was 10 per cent higher in West Pakistan, but by 1964/65 this had risen to over 30 per cent. A long-standing grievance, pre-dating 1958, was that West Pakistan was a beneficiary of the foreign exchange earned from export of raw jute from East Pakistan. The Ayub regime sought to suppress Bengali culture too. It tried clumsily to prevent Bengalis from celebrating the birthday of the celebrated Bengali poet, Rabindranath Tagore, as well as banning his works.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    They seem to have fantastic PR, what with that curated 'ISPR' thing.
    PMLN all but run Geo, Jang etc. This is Pakistan.

  25. #105
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    From Major Ishaq's martyrdom thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    You know very well that our criticism is directed solely to the GHQ Generals who violate constitution, disrespect mandate of people, overthrow democratically elected governments and interfere beyond their domain. If anything, this fine young man embraced shahadat because of the policy of Army dictators of past who created and armed militants in that area.

    So stop with this distortion of pointing 'liberals' on the back of this Shaheed soldier. It's disgusting and demeaning to his sacrifice.
    Just like some distort support for Army as support for dictatorship?
    Check all the threads where we have discussed Zia's pathetic and disastrous policies that resulted in extremism and destruction of country. It was work of a mad radicalised individual whose policies are criticised by every sane person in the country and no one calls you anti Army for criticising people like Zia ul Haq.

    Read the following to understand where we are coming from:




    Now this person is also a liberal, moderate and well educated but she knows very well the difference between valid criticism and bashing of fauj by certain sections.

  26. #106
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    Do people remember when Army launched an operation against Lal masjid mullahs?? People can dig all the threads on PP and read what our view was.

    What was reaction of our politicians back then? Most opposed the operation even though Mullah Aziz's gang had been harassing average people issuing open threats. Army was bashed day & night for allegedly killing unarmed kids and women when reality was there were armed terrorists inside the mosque and that mullah has been spewing venom against Army ever since, he doesn't even consider them "SHAHEED" because they lost lives fighting Talibans.

    Point is you can't blame whole ARMY for pathetic policies of mad individuals and especially when current generation has nothing to do with policies of those who ruled decades ago. I see so many Army haters so arrogantly saying "Aur karo support inko showing no respect to martyrs".
    And this after they have been fighting and losing their lives for a decade now?

  27. #107
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    I can't edit post #105 so adding this in addition to Mehr's earlier tweet, there is a difference between criticising policies and being anti fauj:



  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    He's right though, Afghanistan was already war torn before the Taliban because of ethnic conflict. Pakistan later created the Taliban cause Afghanistan supporting separatists in Pakistan, you know the history and how Afghanistan doesn't recognize the border and claims half of Pakistan until the Indus. You either don't know this fact or support it, that shows where your allegiance lies.
    I am Pashtun, born and bred in Peshawar. You don't need to provide a cursory overview of the history and geopolitics of this region. I am not contesting the notion that Afghanistan was already destabilized; I'm objecting the statement that the "Taliban emerged itself". The Taliban would not have emerge into the monster that it is today without the backing of the Pakistani military.

    Secondly, our military has played no small role in furthering the destabilization of Afghanistan to the point that it is a basket case to this date. We took advantage of their internal conflicts and used them to our advantage, but it has backfired great time. It is a fact that we should not deny, and it brings us back to the original point that the military has done more damage to the country than any civilian institution.

    Today, we have multiple right-wing extremists groups because of the influence and the inspiration of the Taliban and the paradigm shift in the country due to the torrid, extremist ideology of the Gen. Zia, the greatest gift Pakistani military has given to the country. To say that the military has had no influence on the formation of the TTP because they are fighting against it is a very ignorant position to take.

    They are fighting the TTP because the chickens have come home to roost now, and although they are in bed with LeJ now, they will end up fighting them one day when things get out of control, which they will eventually. Nonetheless, KKWC apologist views on extremism are well documented so his propensity to whitewash the crime of the military does not surprise me.

    As far as my allegiance is concerned, I am proud of my ethnicity but I'm a strong critic of Pashtun nationalism because is a threat to Pakistan's stability. There is a minority group among Pakistani Pashtuns who have an emotional connection to Afghanistan, but thankfully, the majority prefer to identify themselves as Pakistanis first and Pashtuns later.

    Now obviously you can dismiss all of this and ask to remove my tinfoil hat.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I am Pashtun, born and bred in Peshawar. You don't need to provide a cursory overview of the history and geopolitics of this region. I am not contesting the notion that Afghanistan was already destabilized; I'm objecting the statement that the "Taliban emerged itself". The Taliban would not have emerge into the monster that it is today without the backing of the Pakistani military.

    Secondly, our military has played no small role in furthering the destabilization of Afghanistan to the point that it is a basket case to this date. We took advantage of their internal conflicts and used them to our advantage, but it has backfired great time. It is a fact that we should not deny, and it brings us back to the original point that the military has done more damage to the country than any civilian institution.

    Today, we have multiple right-wing extremists groups because of the influence and the inspiration of the Taliban and the paradigm shift in the country due to the torrid, extremist ideology of the Gen. Zia, the greatest gift Pakistani military has given to the country. To say that the military has had no influence on the formation of the TTP because they are fighting against it is a very ignorant position to take.

    They are fighting the TTP because the chickens have come home to roost now, and although they are in bed with LeJ now, they will end up fighting them one day when things get out of control, which they will eventually. Nonetheless, KKWC apologist views on extremism are well documented so his propensity to whitewash the crime of the military does not surprise me.

    As far as my allegiance is concerned, I am proud of my ethnicity but I'm a strong critic of Pashtun nationalism because is a threat to Pakistan's stability. There is a minority group among Pakistani Pashtuns who have an emotional connection to Afghanistan, but thankfully, the majority prefer to identify themselves as Pakistanis first and Pashtuns later.

    Now obviously you can dismiss all of this and ask to remove my tinfoil hat.
    Rough estimate percentage of this minority?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khan12 View Post
    Rough estimate percentage of this minority?
    Difficult to quantify, but I can say with conviction that no more than 5% of the Pashtun population want KP to breakaway from Pakistan and join Afghanistan. There are still some closet supporters of Daud Khan and Pashtuns got a bad rapport during the reign of ANP, but by and large, Pashtun nationalism is a dead horse in KP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Difficult to quantify, but I can say with conviction that no more than 5% of the Pashtun population want KP to breakaway from Pakistan and join Afghanistan. There are still some closet supporters of Daud Khan and Pashtuns got a bad rapport during the reign of ANP, but by and large, Pashtun nationalism is a dead horse in KP.
    I being pashtun my self will be shocked even if this is close to 2%. Infact, I have never come across a Pakistani Pashtun who wants to join Afganistan. Though I don't live in Pakistan anymore so you figure maybe more accurate.

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    A lot of Pashtuns have a soft corner for Afghanistan and claim to be Afghans but are equally proud of being Pakistanis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khan12 View Post
    I being pashtun my self will be shocked even if this is close to 2%. Infact, I have never come across a Pakistani Pashtun who wants to join Afganistan. Though I don't live in Pakistan anymore so you figure maybe more accurate.
    being a pashtun i agree,this nationalism mantra is dead here.

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    The dilemma is getting bigger and bigger everyday, it seems.

    The censorship by the army and truth hiding is only going to hold up for a certain amount of time. The army tried to censor its endeavors back in 2003 when the military operation in FATA started. It got exposed with the emergence of TTP. The army tried to hide drone attacks, which started in 2005 and when the issue became public they tried to claim innocence but now it's a fact that every drone strikes happens with the permission of the army.

    Those with a little bit of background knowledge can see another failed strategy getting exposed today.

    Starting with Musharaf's era and his decision to take part in the war on terror, the army has undergone a serious clean up process amongst it ranks. Hence today the results is that most of the upper to mid level generals don't have strong religious convictions but as the nature of the country would suggest, the average foot soldier still holds strong religious believes. All of this is not random.

    I don't intend to create sectarian divide but the reality is that a Deobandi and Barelvi divide does exist in the society and it exists to a very extreme extent in the army. I don't have any loyalties to any particular religious group and obviously a generalization about people from either group cannot be made. However the problem can't be solved or understood without keeping this aspect in mind.

    Many of the mid to upper-level generals with a Deobandi background were given early retirement after Musharaf's decision to join in with the Americans.

    This was because the "enemy" ie. the Taliban were from Deobandi school of thought, hence they had support of Deobandi scholars, which would naturally lead to a conflict of interest among the generals from Deobandi background, who adhered to their scholars. After America's attack many Deobandi scholars did in fact issue fatwas in support of Taliban, the most notable amongst them would be Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai. These fatwas were pretty bold and judged the army's decision to support America in its war against Afghan Muslims as unislamic. As a consequence of such verdicts many Deobandi generals and officials in the army and ISI were against Musharraf's decision. So it was decided to get rid of such generals and officials. Which would prove to be highly costly, since some of those mid-level generals would become rouge and go on to support and join the Taliban, which led to some high-profile attacks by the TTP.

    Obviously they couldn't get rid of every single person with an affiliation with the Deobandi school of though, nor was every Deobandi general against Musharraf's decision. As with every group Deobandi's too have differences of opinions on issues among themselves. Additionally I think that there are other reasons to believe that a significant but less influencial Deobandi presence still remains in the army and the ISI.

    Then you had the exact opposite. The Barelvis, who had no issues with fighting the Taliban or supporting America against them. Since they already saw Deobandis as misguided in general and saw the Taliban as extremists and Khawarij in specific. Barelvis were also blindly loyal to the army and saw it as a true "Islamic" army and wouldn't really question its legitimacy or decisions.

    Hence it was decided. Majority of the recruits in the army were to be recruited from Barelvi dominant regions, which included Punjab for the most part. Especially in the early stages of the fight against TTP around 2007 when it wasn't clear who the group is and what they want, many of the recruits who were sent to fight them were from barelvi background, since the matter was already clear to them and they didn't have to think too much about it. While the deobandis on the other hand were still unsure about the issue and were afraid of ending up fighting their own "brothers".

    The Barelvi foot soldiers had the attitude that they are fulfilling a highly religious duty by getting rid of the extremists, the misguided one and to put it in their own words "the dogs of hell fire". Their motivation was a religious motivation and their higher ups also made sure to make full use of their religious enthusiasm. The average low-ranked soldier was sold the idea that it was a "jihad" against extremists which they were a part of and they weren't fighting, because it was America's orders.

    While the army's elite was getting more and more "secularized" and "liberal", the average infantrymen were once again being fed religious motivation to get the job done, which was bringing the elite millions and millions of dollars. Once again the higher-ups decided to take full advantage of others religious believes. Each and every action if the army was justified by the Quran and Hadeeth to the new recruits.

    This all leads us to today, where the higher-ups in the army find their hands tied together firmly. They can't take any serious action against this current group of protestors because this is a Barelvi group. Over the years the strategic recruitment of Barelvis has led to a very large percentage of soldiers to be barelvi, who after joining the army were reinforced the notion of the army being a guardian of Islam. These Barelvi soldiers take their scholars as seriously as the Deobandis.

    Whether the higher-ups in the army like it or not, they have to keep quite otherwise they risk a very strong backlash from these low-level soldiers. They weren't expecting such a turn of events, since so far most Barelvi scholars hardly made any political noises. To the higher-ups in the army the Barelvis might have been less violence prone and less extreme in contrast to Deobandis but now they are finding out that it was only a matter of time. As they learnt the hard way, religion truly is the opium of the people.

    I don't know if the current group of anarchists is directly supported by the army but I am sure that the reason behind army's lack of action is the dilemma it finds itself in.

    The issue at hand is very complex and can't be solved by wishful thinking. I don't intend to point out all the mistakes and expose the army's incompetence but I have no sympathy with the high generals of the army who have made fortunes on the expense of the nation and the gullible ones. May they continue to sweat hard due to their exploitations.

    To truly solve this issue you would need years of carefully thought out steps and it won't happen from one day to another. Sadly I don't find anyone with enough foresight and understanding to solve the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    The dilemma is getting bigger and bigger everyday, it seems.

    The censorship by the army and truth hiding is only going to hold up for a certain amount of time. The army tried to censor its endeavors back in 2003 when the military operation in FATA started. It got exposed with the emergence of TTP. The army tried to hide drone attacks, which started in 2005 and when the issue became public they tried to claim innocence but now it's a fact that every drone strikes happens with the permission of the army.

    Those with a little bit of background knowledge can see another failed strategy getting exposed today.

    Starting with Musharaf's era and his decision to take part in the war on terror, the army has undergone a serious clean up process amongst it ranks. Hence today the results is that most of the upper to mid level generals don't have strong religious convictions but as the nature of the country would suggest, the average foot soldier still holds strong religious believes. All of this is not random.

    I don't intend to create sectarian divide but the reality is that a Deobandi and Barelvi divide does exist in the society and it exists to a very extreme extent in the army. I don't have any loyalties to any particular religious group and obviously a generalization about people from either group cannot be made. However the problem can't be solved or understood without keeping this aspect in mind.

    Many of the mid to upper-level generals with a Deobandi background were given early retirement after Musharaf's decision to join in with the Americans.

    This was because the "enemy" ie. the Taliban were from Deobandi school of thought, hence they had support of Deobandi scholars, which would naturally lead to a conflict of interest among the generals from Deobandi background, who adhered to their scholars. After America's attack many Deobandi scholars did in fact issue fatwas in support of Taliban, the most notable amongst them would be Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai. These fatwas were pretty bold and judged the army's decision to support America in its war against Afghan Muslims as unislamic. As a consequence of such verdicts many Deobandi generals and officials in the army and ISI were against Musharraf's decision. So it was decided to get rid of such generals and officials. Which would prove to be highly costly, since some of those mid-level generals would become rouge and go on to support and join the Taliban, which led to some high-profile attacks by the TTP.

    Obviously they couldn't get rid of every single person with an affiliation with the Deobandi school of though, nor was every Deobandi general against Musharraf's decision. As with every group Deobandi's too have differences of opinions on issues among themselves. Additionally I think that there are other reasons to believe that a significant but less influencial Deobandi presence still remains in the army and the ISI.

    Then you had the exact opposite. The Barelvis, who had no issues with fighting the Taliban or supporting America against them. Since they already saw Deobandis as misguided in general and saw the Taliban as extremists and Khawarij in specific. Barelvis were also blindly loyal to the army and saw it as a true "Islamic" army and wouldn't really question its legitimacy or decisions.

    Hence it was decided. Majority of the recruits in the army were to be recruited from Barelvi dominant regions, which included Punjab for the most part. Especially in the early stages of the fight against TTP around 2007 when it wasn't clear who the group is and what they want, many of the recruits who were sent to fight them were from barelvi background, since the matter was already clear to them and they didn't have to think too much about it. While the deobandis on the other hand were still unsure about the issue and were afraid of ending up fighting their own "brothers".

    The Barelvi foot soldiers had the attitude that they are fulfilling a highly religious duty by getting rid of the extremists, the misguided one and to put it in their own words "the dogs of hell fire". Their motivation was a religious motivation and their higher ups also made sure to make full use of their religious enthusiasm. The average low-ranked soldier was sold the idea that it was a "jihad" against extremists which they were a part of and they weren't fighting, because it was America's orders.

    While the army's elite was getting more and more "secularized" and "liberal", the average infantrymen were once again being fed religious motivation to get the job done, which was bringing the elite millions and millions of dollars. Once again the higher-ups decided to take full advantage of others religious believes. Each and every action if the army was justified by the Quran and Hadeeth to the new recruits.

    This all leads us to today, where the higher-ups in the army find their hands tied together firmly. They can't take any serious action against this current group of protestors because this is a Barelvi group. Over the years the strategic recruitment of Barelvis has led to a very large percentage of soldiers to be barelvi, who after joining the army were reinforced the notion of the army being a guardian of Islam. These Barelvi soldiers take their scholars as seriously as the Deobandis.

    Whether the higher-ups in the army like it or not, they have to keep quite otherwise[B] they risk a very strong [/B]backlash from these low-level soldiers. They weren't expecting such a turn of events, since so far most Barelvi scholars hardly made any political noises. To the higher-ups in the army the Barelvis might have been less violence prone and less extreme in contrast to Deobandis but now they are finding out that it was only a matter of time. As they learnt the hard way, religion truly is the opium of the people.

    I don't know if the current group of anarchists is directly supported by the army but I am sure that the reason behind army's lack of action is the dilemma it finds itself in.

    The issue at hand is very complex and can't be solved by wishful thinking. I don't intend to point out all the mistakes and expose the army's incompetence but I have no sympathy with the high generals of the army who have made fortunes on the expense of the nation and the gullible ones. May they continue to sweat hard due to their exploitations.

    To truly solve this issue you would need years of carefully thought out steps and it won't happen from one day to another. Sadly I don't find anyone with enough foresight and understanding to solve the issue.
    These "low level Soldiers" are only going to do whatever they are ordered by higher ups. There is no sectarian divide in army as you are trying to portray and it is discouraged at almost every level of Army. The smallest basic unit of our army is "Unit or company" and it has soldiers and officers from different sect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    These "low level Soldiers" are only going to do whatever they are ordered by higher ups. There is no sectarian divide in army as you are trying to portray and it is discouraged at almost every level of Army. The smallest basic unit of our army is "Unit or company" and it has soldiers and officers from different sect.
    I agree with you in the sense that when it comes to day to day activities the army is united, especially now that the rouge elements have been dealt with and no one in their right mind would question the fight against TTP.

    But if you look carefully you will see a certain double standard when it comes to dealing with molvis from different backgrounds.

    Last year this Rizvi guy publicly used harsh words and abusive language against the COAS of the time, Raheel Sharif, without fearing any consequences. Now more than a year later the same guy is out on the streets spreading chaos.

    While the army has dealt harshly with molvis who crossed a certain line, like Nizamuddin Shamzai, Ghazi Rasheed and Jhangvi gang, it find itself in a dilemma regarding the current situation.

    This Rizvi guy is up to no good and wants to create division. The higher-ups cannot afford to test the loyalties of their subordinates, otherwise they would have sent out a strong message to Rizvi, the first time he opened his mouth against Raheel Sharif. We are an emotional nation and it is easy to mobilize masses over strong emotional and religious sentiments. It is a serious dilemma for the army which needs careful assessment and proper handling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirris View Post
    I agree with you in the sense that when it comes to day to day activities the army is united, especially now that the rouge elements have been dealt with and no one in their right mind would question the fight against TTP.

    But if you look carefully you will see a certain double standard when it comes to dealing with molvis from different backgrounds.

    Last year this Rizvi guy publicly used harsh words and abusive language against the COAS of the time, Raheel Sharif, without fearing any consequences. Now more than a year later the same guy is out on the streets spreading chaos.

    While the army has dealt harshly with molvis who crossed a certain line, like Nizamuddin Shamzai, Ghazi Rasheed and Jhangvi gang, it find itself in a dilemma regarding the current situation.

    This Rizvi guy is up to no good and wants to create division. The higher-ups cannot afford to test the loyalties of their subordinates, otherwise they would have sent out a strong message to Rizvi, the first time he opened his mouth against Raheel Sharif. We are an emotional nation and it is easy to mobilize masses over strong emotional and religious sentiments. It is a serious dilemma for the army which needs careful assessment and proper handling.
    I think army higher ups are in dilemma not because they are doubtful of the conviction or loyalties of their subordinates but due to the nature of issue here. No other religious issue is as sensitive as Namoos-e-Resaalat . Rizvi has exploited this perfectly and army is showing restraint because of emotionally charged public.
    .

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    The real catastrophe in Pakistan is the cynical use of Islamist extremism by the country’s security establishment to hold democracy hostage and to foment the insecurity it needs to maintain its grip on power. Until that changes, there is scant hope Pakistan will take control of the terrorism that threatens its citizens’ lives and the stability of the region.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/o...-pakistan.html

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    We will do what's best for us. Karlo jo karna hai.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    We will do what's best for us. Karlo jo karna hai.
    Woh to nazar aa hi raha hai... lage raho phir aise hi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    We will do what's best for us. Karlo jo karna hai.
    Where will you draw the line if the country falls into a spiraling chaos if that's you're mindset ??

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    What's new? Same crap about "do more" and attacking Pakistan Army.

    Pakistan Army is supposedly protecting all extremists who kill it's soldiers on daily basis, it makes a LOT of sense to haters but to an average Pakistani. What these people can't see is we have come long way from supporting such groups (which others in the region also supported one way or another). India, Iran, US, Afghanis, Russia all play these dirty games but strategies do change with time and we have seen massive change in the last 5 years.

    This church attack as per all news was carried out by ISIS, same group that has launched attacks against Pakistan Army as well and any decent person would give credit to Pakistan Army for taking appropriate actions to ensure ISIS doesn't form strong base in Pakistan and many articles confirm ISIS has failed in Pakistan due to prompt actions by security agencies.

    Also great to see Pakistan COAS Bajwa standing with Christian brothers attending Christmas celebrations in churches which does strong message in a country where some idiots even think wishing Christmas is a crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snak3eye5 View Post
    Where will you draw the line if the country falls into a spiraling chaos if that's you're mindset ??
    It's not that mindset, no one takes Americans or their media propaganda seriously now. Their non stop propaganda is boring and useless given how much Pakistan has sacrificed in recent years but all you hear is non stop crap from them. This is what "kar lo jo karna hai" is all about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Woh to nazar aa hi raha hai... lage raho phir aise hi
    Keep crying

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snak3eye5 View Post
    Where will you draw the line if the country falls into a spiraling chaos if that's you're mindset ??
    It won't no matter how much you hope for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    What's new? Same crap about "do more" and attacking Pakistan Army.

    Pakistan Army is supposedly protecting all extremists who kill it's soldiers on daily basis, it makes a LOT of sense to haters but to an average Pakistani. What these people can't see is we have come long way from supporting such groups (which others in the region also supported one way or another). India, Iran, US, Afghanis, Russia all play these dirty games but strategies do change with time and we have seen massive change in the last 5 years.

    This church attack as per all news was carried out by ISIS, same group that has launched attacks against Pakistan Army as well and any decent person would give credit to Pakistan Army for taking appropriate actions to ensure ISIS doesn't form strong base in Pakistan and many articles confirm ISIS has failed in Pakistan due to prompt actions by security agencies.

    Also great to see Pakistan COAS Bajwa standing with Christian brothers attending Christmas celebrations in churches which does strong message in a country where some idiots even think wishing Christmas is a crime.
    You missed the point of this article. It's highlighting Army's use of religious extremists to undermine democracy and arm-twist the government.

    On the off topic 'do more' part, your words will have credence once Haqqani and LeT bandits are reigned in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    You missed the point of this article. It's highlighting Army's use of religious extremists to undermine democracy and arm-twist the government.

    On the off topic 'do more' part, your words will have credence once Haqqani and LeT bandits are reigned in.
    lol Haqqanis, sure they are Pakistan's biggest problem?

    For some reason you have absolutely no concern for Pakistan or Pakistanis, it's all about Americans.

    Check all my previous posts on this topic on PP, i used to be (and still am) big critic of Pakistanis blaming America for everything without taking responsibility. What i also have realised over the years is Americans absolutely don't care about PAKISTAN's interests. Afghan terrorists have killed thousands of innocent people in Pakistan but Americans couldn't take action against them or TTP leadership living in safe heavens in Afghanistan.
    Pakistan is fighting TTP backed by Afghan and Indians and then there are ISIS terrorists so last thing Pakistan should be worried about is Haqqanis or anyone not targeting Pakistan. Yes in an ideal world no such group should exist who believe in violence but Jerusalem episode should be enough to explain what sort of world we are living in unfortunately.

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    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    It seems as if the establishment will never learn.

    Military has decimated Pakistan and left us on the verge of social, economic and cultural collapse.

    I don't know why certain posters here are denying the obvious truths that posters like @Mamoon, @LegendInzi, @TalentSpotterPk have been pointing out.

    Military has been toying with religious extremist groups for a very long time and guess who has paid the price? Ordinary Pakistanis who no longer feel safe within their own country.

    Military has been involving itself in politics and we still think that there can be a fully democratic solution to our problems. It is plainly clear that unless we have a clear break and new start to our politics in which the military is subordinate to civilian government, we will continue to struggle as a nation.

    The establishment has been robbing us since the days of Ayub in the fifties. Since then it has given us gifts like 1965 war, Tashkent embarrassment, 1971 break up of our beautiful country, crippled economy, Kargil, cooperation and supporting extremists. The economic toll on Pakistan has been very severe.

    Until we realise this, we are going nowhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loralai View Post
    It seems as if the establishment will never learn.

    Military has decimated Pakistan and left us on the verge of social, economic and cultural collapse.

    I don't know why certain posters here are denying the obvious truths that posters like @Mamoon, @LegendInzi, @TalentSpotterPk have been pointing out.

    Military has been toying with religious extremist groups for a very long time and guess who has paid the price? Ordinary Pakistanis who no longer feel safe within their own country.

    Military has been involving itself in politics and we still think that there can be a fully democratic solution to our problems. It is plainly clear that unless we have a clear break and new start to our politics in which the military is subordinate to civilian government, we will continue to struggle as a nation.

    The establishment has been robbing us since the days of Ayub in the fifties. Since then it has given us gifts like 1965 war, Tashkent embarrassment, 1971 break up of our beautiful country, crippled economy, Kargil, cooperation and supporting extremists. The economic toll on Pakistan has been very severe.

    Until we realise this, we are going nowhere.
    Ask them to comment on the MMA alliance with Nooras? Why no comment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Ask them to comment on the MMA alliance with Nooras? Why no comment?
    This same Talat and lifafa liberals were posting IK clips and questionign his faith but i guess that was halal and this is haram? Hypocrisy of pak liberals is so obvious they dont even hide it anymore


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    This same Talat and lifafa liberals were posting IK clips and questionign his faith but i guess that was halal and this is haram? Hypocrisy of pak liberals is so obvious they dont even hide it anymore
    Talat and just desperate for revenge and he feels humiliated as he has no credibility. He took the Noora money but has zero credibility, as the saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Talat and just desperate for revenge and he feels humiliated as he has no credibility. He took the Noora money but has zero credibility, as the saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it.
    You know Najam Sethi once said according to Wikileaks Talat used to work for CIA


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Learn to differentiate between the military establishment/ISI and the common soldier. The establishment that is pulling the strings from the background are sitting in their comfort zones with zero accountability.
    The first sentence of this post is a simple one, but it’s the most important one on this thread.
    Last edited by aliasad1998; 3rd July 2018 at 12:14.


    "Our business is our business. None of your business" - Race 3

  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan Sasuke View Post
    ISPR falls in with our habit of romanticising everything relating to the army. Everything good happens because of the army, and everything bad happens because of politicians. People fail to realise that just like the sharifs and zardaris, there is corruption in the army too. Accountability should be for both institutions.
    Good post is this. You're spot on. There is no accountability for our generals at all.

    At least there is scrutiny of civilian politicians and their investments. Nothing of the like for those in the armed forces.

  58. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loralai View Post
    Good post is this. You're spot on. There is no accountability for our generals at all.

    At least there is scrutiny of civilian politicians and their investments. Nothing of the like for those in the armed forces.
    There is only scrutiny of Politicians because of IK has forced the issue of corruption but i do agree that the Gens, bureaucrats and in particular the lower Judiciary and some in the upper(Justice Qayyum)

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    There is only scrutiny of Politicians because of IK has forced the issue of corruption but i do agree that the Gens, bureaucrats and in particular the lower Judiciary and some in the upper(Justice Qayyum)
    Given Imran's stance on corruption, do you think he will push for scrutiny of Generals and high ranking members of the Army?

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loralai View Post
    Given Imran's stance on corruption, do you think he will push for scrutiny of Generals and high ranking members of the Army?
    We know the Sharifs were created by the Generals and the Generals have no respect for them as they are fundamentally corrupt. And In time yes, but it takes time. The best thing about IK is that he owes nothing to the Generals- they even helped the Nooras in 2013.

  61. #141
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  62. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loralai View Post
    Given Imran's stance on corruption, do you think he will push for scrutiny of Generals and high ranking members of the Army?
    Nope, that will be IK digging his own grave!

    Halfway through reading 'Kargil to Coup' by Nazim Zehra, it's stunning to see how top Army brass who formed the the Kargil clique, including Pervez Musharraf, then Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Aziz Khan, Gen Mahmud Ahmed, Brigadier Javed Hassan got away with strategic blunders of Himalyan proportions with their so called Operation KP (Koh Paima).

    Questions were never asked and the blame was piled up against an incumbent and militarily ignorant and lazy PM! They actually got away with murder and to this date never questioned for that defeat or for the loss of lives that never received recognition or a proper burial on home soil. Even the Air Force and Navy did not mince words as to how stupid the whole plan was.

    But no there are absolutely no repercussions for the Army leadership and there never will be.

  63. #143
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    Last edited by Abdullah719; 6th July 2018 at 19:55.

  64. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    Can’t find any insaafians commenting on this even if I use binoculars.

    @Mian @Bewal Express @Waseem

    Can we be graced by your presence and esteemed opinions? What is this, and how do you defend it?

  65. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Can’t find any insaafians commenting on this even if I use binoculars.

    @Mian @Bewal Express @Waseem

    Can we be graced by your presence and esteemed opinions? What is this, and how do you defend it?
    What about it?

  66. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    What about it?
    Why is the military protecting a terrorist?

  67. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Why is the military protecting a terrorist?
    Are you that stupid or just want to act like one? ASF is not military it's freaking Airport Security Force at least check the uniform and military isn't ASF.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  68. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Why is the military protecting a terrorist?
    Thats not military.

  69. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Why is the military protecting a terrorist?
    Since when has the ASF been the Millitary? Maybe you should stick to your saplings or supporting Showbiz after he stole 400crore from the poorest people needing clean water.

  70. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Are you that stupid or just want to act like one? ASF is not military it's freaking Airport Security Force at least check the uniform and military isn't ASF.
    textbook 'deep state'

  71. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by LegendInzi View Post
    textbook 'deep state'
    Continue with your conspiracy stories it's hilarious you guys accuse others of falling for conspiracy theories but you are exactly same.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  72. #152
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    Seems like some people are born shameless.

  73. #153
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    Why is protection given to this terrorist?!

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomousx View Post
    Why is protection given to this terrorist?!
    He isn’t terrorist, tbh he represents majority of laymen in our country. Just live with it.

    Me think TLY will surprise a lot of people. Will have huge success in upcoming elections.

  75. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Free Hit View Post
    He isn’t terrorist, tbh he represents majority of laymen in our country. Just live with it.

    Me think TLY will surprise a lot of people. Will have huge success in upcoming elections.
    Majority of Pakistan wants to nuke Holland if given the weapon? I really don't think so. This is a crazy terrorist trying to the emotions of our majority.

  76. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomousx View Post
    Why is protection given to this terrorist?!
    I don't know, same reason right wing nuts elsewhere get it..I mean I've heard serving american officials claiming they want to nuke Makkah and Medina..and they actually have nukes to do it..

  77. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    I don't know, same reason right wing nuts elsewhere get it..I mean I've heard serving american officials claiming they want to nuke Makkah and Medina..and they actually have nukes to do it..
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Khadim Hussain Rizvi is a terrorist and so are the American officials who claim so.

  78. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by venomousx View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Khadim Hussain Rizvi is a terrorist and so are the American officials who claim so.
    He is the latest in our Establishment's list of "assets". They don't realise that he is already out of control and spewing extremism.

    In any other country this guy would be behind bars but here he is leading a political party!

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