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  1. #1
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    U.S. to recognize Jerusalem as Israelís capital, Donald Trump says, alarming Middle East leaders

    President Trump told Israeli and Arab leaders on Tuesday that he plans to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a symbolically fraught move that would upend decades of American policy and upset efforts to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

    Mr. Trump is expected to announce his decision on Wednesday, two days after the expiration of a deadline for him to decide whether to keep the American Embassy in Tel Aviv.

    Palestinian officials said Mr. Trump told the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, that the United States would move the embassy to Jerusalem. Jordan said the president gave a similar message to King Abdullah II.

    American officials, however, said such a move could not occur immediately for logistical reasons, given the lack of facilities to house the embassy staff. As a result, Mr. Trump is expected to sign a national security waiver that would authorize the administration to keep it in Tel Aviv for an additional six months.

    Still, Mr. Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital — and to set in motion an embassy move — is his riskiest foray yet into the thicket of Middle East diplomacy. Arab and European leaders warn that it could derail any peace initiative and even ignite fresh violence in the region.

    King Abdullah II strongly cautioned against the move, “stressing that Jerusalem is the key to achieving peace and stability in the region and the world,” according to a statement from the royal palace in Amman.

    “King Abdullah stressed that the adoption of this resolution will have serious implications for security and stability in the Middle East, and will undermine the efforts of the American administration to resume the peace process and fuel the feelings of Muslims and Christians,” the statement said.

    Few details of the conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Abbas were released, but a P.L.O. spokesman said that the call had given shape to the worst fears of Palestinians — that the United States would break with decades of practice and longstanding international consensus by recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

    The Palestinians hope to make East Jerusalem the capital of a Palestinian state, and the city is of great religious significance to Jews, Christians and Muslims.

    “It’s very serious,” said the spokesman, Xavier Abu Eid. “Things look very bad.”

    The Palestinian news agency, WAFA, quoted Mr. Abbas’s spokesman, Nabil Abu Rudeineh, as saying that Mr. Abbas will continue his contacts with world leaders to prevent such “unacceptable action.”

    King Abdullah also spoke with Mr. Abbas, assuring him of Jordan’s support for the Palestinians “in preserving their historic rights in Jerusalem and the need to work together to confront the consequences of this decision,” it said.

    Mr. Trump, officials said, assured Mr. Abbas that the administration would protect Palestinian interests in any peace negotiation with Israel. He also invited the Palestinian leader to visit him in Washington for further consultations.

    In his phone calls with Arab leaders, Mr. Trump is making the case that settling the question of the American Embassy could actually hasten the peace process by removing a thorny political issue that recurs every six months.

    But that is primarily a political problem for Mr. Trump, who promised during the 2016 campaign to move the embassy. His pledge was extremely popular with evangelicals and pro-Israel backers, including the casino magnate Sheldon Adelson. They expressed frustration when Mr. Trump signed the waiver in June, keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv.

    Middle East experts said the administration’s argument that it could not move the embassy immediately made little sense, since all that is required is to place a sign on the existing American consulate, declaring it the embassy.

    For Arab leaders, word that the United States would formally recognize Jerusalem as the capital had already caused great consternation. The symbolic statement of the embassy’s change of address, many officials warned, was actually less damaging to the peace process than changing United States policy on Jerusalem’s status.

    For the United States to move the embassy would break with international consensus that the status of Jerusalem remains unsettled.


    Though Israel houses its parliament, president, prime minister and most ministries in Jerusalem, and Israelis overwhelmingly want the world to acknowledge the Holy City as their seat of government, the international community recognizes de facto Israeli sovereignty only in West Jerusalem.

    East Jerusalem was captured by Israeli forces during the Arab-Israeli war of 1967. And the permanent status of Jerusalem as a whole, East and West, was postponed under the Oslo Accords, although Israel extended Jerusalem’s municipal borders to encompass the predominantly Arab eastern neighborhoods.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/w...rump-move.html


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  2. #2
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  3. #3
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    Its going to happen. He has made up his mind. I don't know if the rest of the world will follow and also recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel and not a contested region.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracket View Post
    Its going to happen. He has made up his mind. I don't know if the rest of the world will follow and also recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel and not a contested region.
    East Jerusalem is considered occupied territory. Trump and his Zionist friends can claim what they like but this will always belong to the Palestinians.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    The winners of war and geopolitics dictate the terms.


    "I tried to count the stars while in bed. To keep the thoughts of monsters from my head."

  7. #7
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    i dont know how USA can be an honest partner in the peace deal, turmp has his jewish son in law who is a staunch supporters of building in occupied territories in West Bank and Jerusalem, and then you have the US ambassador to israel who is a jew and does not believe in the two state solution.

    You cant make this up.

  8. #8
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    ITís happening.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    East Jerusalem is considered occupied territory. Trump and his Zionist friends can claim what they like but this will always belong to the Palestinians.
    It belongs to the Palestinians only in their hearts for now. Unless the larger Muslim world actually cares enough for them to wrest back control of these disputed territories, it is for Israel and America to do as they please.

  10. #10
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    It's a good step I feel, at least the Americans are finally being up front about their relationship with the Zionists, nothing will change in practical terms, other than it will make their Arab allies look a bit more foolish.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    It belongs to the Palestinians only in their hearts for now. Unless the larger Muslim world actually cares enough for them to wrest back control of these disputed territories, it is for Israel and America to do as they please.
    There is no unity between muslims, seems like every country is run by power-hungry dictators who are only interested in their own pockets rather than thinking about the wellbeeing of their people.
    If there was unity never in the World, USA would even think to make this announcement. But now they can do whatever they want.


    Ki Mohammad (saw) sey wafa tu ney tou hum terey hain
    Yeh jahaan cheez kya hai Loh-o-Qalam tere hain

  12. #12
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  13. #13
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    So much for PP's resident Trump supporters who claimed he would "stand up to Israel" for the last two years.

    The US is not an honest broker.

  14. #14
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  15. #15
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    Good move by Trump , I hope Modi breaks tradition and follows suit. Jerusalem has and always will belong to Israel , it is their holiest site.
    I doubt Trump will eventually go through it with though , the state department officials will try and stop him.


    John 3:16

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    Good move by Trump , I hope Modi breaks tradition and follows suit. Jerusalem has and always will belong to Israel , it is their holiest site.
    I doubt Trump will eventually go through it with though , the state department officials will try and stop him.
    Thatís like saying US has and always belonged to the native Indians so we should kill all the white people and throw them out.

    The west preaches globalism on one hand but when it comes to certain interests, the double standards are apparent and most Indians just enjoy being their lap dogs.

  17. #17
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    Yeah, sure seems like it.


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  18. #18
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    It seems the world has really hypocritical standards when it comes to conflicts involving the Muslim world. On one hand they are happy to be business partners and allies of the despots of the Muslim world such as certain dictators and rulers of KSA but when it comes to basic civil rights of certain Muslim populations, they conveniently turn from heaven sent moderators and peace bringers to despots themselves.


    Then they wonder why some Muslims get radicalized and spread terrorism. They should take a deeper look at themselves. What goes on in places like Myanmar, Palestine, Kashmir and what has happened in Bosnia, the inaction of lack of action speaks volume of the bias of the world.

    Trump family has tons of business interests in Israel and this is just a grab for the pot of honey. When this administration gets done, hopefully this decision will be reverted

  19. #19
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    I am not sure what's there to outrage about. It seems propped by the liberal Islamo-fascist media.

    Trump has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a visionary leader with his deft handling of complex issues and articulate speeches. Not to mention his award winning business skills. I am sure his dabble in the Middle East mess will bring long term peace and prosperity to the region. Go get them Trump

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBK_Fan View Post
    I am not sure what's there to outrage about. It seems propped by the liberal Islamo-fascist media.

    Trump has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a visionary leader with his deft handling of complex issues and articulate speeches. Not to mention his award winning business skills. I am sure his dabble in the Middle East mess will bring long term peace and prosperity to the region. Go get them Trump
    This reminds me, the other reason I am in favour of Trump's lack of diplomacy, is that it encourages unabashed cheerleading from the Hindo-neo-fascist brigade, albeit behind the keyboard. These might be small actions but they can have ripple effects in their own communities with much discord inshallah.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    This reminds me, the other reason I am in favour of Trump's lack of diplomacy, is that it encourages unabashed cheerleading from the Hindo-neo-fascist brigade, albeit behind the keyboard. These might be small actions but they can have ripple effects in their own communities with much discord inshallah.
    A lot in common between them and the white supremacists in the west. My suspicion is both are driven by ultra hatred for Muslims.
    I understand that Hindus suffered losses at the hands of Muslim conquerors from the west and the west feels threatened by Islamic fundamentalists but this sort of matching ultra radical antagonistic strategy towards the Muslim world is not going to make the world a peaceful place. It only serves to reinforce the notions propagated by radical islamists that the whole world is against Muslims and hands them a useful recruiting tool everywhere in the world. They are not proving themselves to be any better than the Al Qaeda/ISIS like **** of the earth.

    Trump seems like he is in a haste to push the world towards the brink of major conflicts and this might well be a thought out strategy from his team to throw the attention away from the ongoing Mueller investigation.

    Another way to look at it is this way: if Mueller does find something damning against him, now the Pro Israeli lobby in the US will work full time to defend him.

  22. #22
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    How do people grow in UK and still not get sarcasm?

  23. #23
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    Sometimes it's delivered really badly, usually by immigrants who don't understand how it's done elegantly.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  24. #24
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    Calling Trump articulate should be a dead giveaway, but then nothing stops a good outrage

  25. #25
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    President Trump has announced that the US now recognises Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

    Mr Trump described the move as "a long overdue step" to advance the Middle East peace process.

    The president said the US would support a two-state solution, if approved by both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

    Ahead of the decision, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas warned it would have "dangerous consequences" for the region.

    Speaking at the White House, Mr Trump said he had "judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America, and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians".

    The president said he was directing the US State Department to begin preparations to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
    Jerusalem contains sites sacred to the three major monotheistic faiths.

    East Jerusalem, which includes the Old City, was annexed by Israel after the Six Day War of 1967, but is not internationally recognised as part of Israel.

    The decision comes despite the opposition of the US's allies in the Muslim world.

    But moving the embassy fulfils a campaign promise and will appeal to Mr Trump's right-wing base.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42259443


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  26. #26
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    Where are the Saudis and their Muslim alliance

    All quiet by these traitors

    A few months ago they were doing the mambo No5 arm in arm with trump

  27. #27
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    Last edited by MenInG; 6th December 2017 at 18:47.


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  28. #28
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    Trump is at least straight forward. Not hidding the fact that he only cares for Israelis. His son in law is jew and so is his daughter.


    Ex Shahid Afridi fan.

  29. #29
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    A step towards peace... In what world???


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  30. #30
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    Timely reminder at time like this



  31. #31
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    Its good to see other world leaders condemn this clown.

    The embassy will be in West Jerusalem not the occupied East but Zionists will never build their dream temple no matter how powerful they become.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by thelandofthebravepeople View Post
    Trump is at least straight forward. Not hidding the fact that he only cares for Israelis. His son in law is jew and so is his daughter.
    Trump's son in law is a close family friend of Netanyahu. According to the New York Times, when Jared Kushner was a child
    "Mr. Netanyahu had even stayed at the Kushnersí home in New Jersey, sleeping in Jaredís bedroom. (The teenager moved to the basement that night.)"
    An Orthodox Jew, Mr. Kushner was instructed to protect Israel, remember the genocide and assure the survival of the Jewish people, those close to him say.

    He was educated at Jewish schools where second graders were expected to draw maps of Israel from memory and the West Bank was often referred to by its biblical names, Judea and Samaria, a practice that emphasizes Jewish claims to the land. His family used its real estate fortune to donate millions of dollars to American Jewish and Israeli hospitals, schools and other institutions, including a few in settlements, according to public records. In his classes, Palestinians were regarded at a distance, in part as security threats who committed acts of terrorism ó including one that killed a sister of a classmate of Mr. Kushnerís.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/u...er-israel.html
    It is said by those in the know that Trump completely relies upon Jared Kushner as far as US Middle East foreign policy is concerned.

    So much so that, on anything to do with the Middle East, Jared Kushner, and not Rex W. Tillerson, is effectively the US Secretary of State (ie Foreign Minister).


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    It belongs to the Palestinians only in their hearts for now. Unless the larger Muslim world actually cares enough for them to wrest back control of these disputed territories, it is for Israel and America to do as they please.
    Nothing lasts forever. Think back to the Soviet empire and the fall of Berlin wall.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbon11 View Post
    Where are the Saudis and their Muslim alliance

    All quiet by these traitors

    A few months ago they were doing the mambo No5 arm in arm with trump
    All these Whabbis pontificating about their piety but their main Sponser the Saudi govt in bed with people very people who hate muslims.

  35. #35
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  36. #36
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    Wouldn't be surprised if people resort to violence in response to this move. Hope that doesn't happen because it'll only make things worse.


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  37. #37
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    unfortunately of course there's going to be violence and I wouldn't be surprised if innocent non-Israeli Jews get attacked throughout Europe and beyond.

  38. #38
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    This is what happens when a sadistic troll gets unlimited power.

  39. #39
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  40. #40
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    Trump has set in motion a chain of events that, in my opinion, will eventually lead to the downfall of the Saudi Monarchy.

    MBS thought he was being clever, by getting the young Saudis on his side, by allowing women to drive, by imprisoning those of his cousins that he thought might be a threat to him in the future, and most importantly, by getting into bed with Jared Kushner, Donald Trump and the Israelis. The same Jared Kushner who's behind this announcement by Trump. (see my post #32 above).

    But now Jared Kushner/ Donald Trump have provided MBS's opponents, especially the Saudi clerics (who MBS has been trying to sideline) with a cause that they can use to rally the masses against MBS, not least by accusing MBS as being in cahoots with Kushner/Trump in this decision.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  41. #41
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Trump has set in motion a chain of events that, in my opinion, will eventually lead to the downfall of the Saudi Monarchy.

    MBS thought he was being clever, by getting the young Saudis on his side, by allowing women to drive, by imprisoning those of his cousins that he thought might be a threat to him in the future, and most importantly, by getting into bed with Jared Kushner, Donald Trump and the Israelis. The same Jared Kushner who's behind this announcement by Trump. (see my post #32 above).

    But now Jared Kushner/ Donald Trump have provided MBS's opponents, especially the Saudi clerics (who MBS has been trying to sideline) with a cause that they can use to rally the masses against MBS, not least by accusing MBS as being in cahoots with Kushner/Trump in this decision.
    I agree. Trump visited Saudi and then flew to Israel, this move being likely to have been discussed. Since then rulers have made people disappear, so although this will have a backlash on Saudi, how it will happen is anyone's guess.

    Turkey always talks tough but nothing ever happens to Israel, lets see if they will now suspend diplomatic ties. Pakistan has condemned the move too but unlike the other Muslim nations, it never recognised the outpost which was a great move.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    Thatís like saying US has and always belonged to the native Indians so we should kill all the white people and throw them out.
    It is the holiest site to Judaism just like Mecca and Medina are to Islam , what part of that do you not understand ? Muslims in that area will be able to visit their mosques just like always , nothing's changed in that regard.


    John 3:16

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    It is the holiest site to Judaism just like Mecca and Medina are to Islam , what part of that do you not understand ? Muslims in that area will be able to visit their mosques just like always , nothing's changed in that regard.
    So you accept everything which is written in the Old Testament/Torah?

    It's also the holiest site of Christians. What about them?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    It is the holiest site to Judaism just like Mecca and Medina are to Islam , what part of that do you not understand ? Muslims in that area will be able to visit their mosques just like always , nothing's changed in that regard.
    And it will always remain the holiest site for Jews but it doesnít has to be capital of any state.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    It is the holiest site to Judaism just like Mecca and Medina are to Islam , what part of that do you not understand ? Muslims in that area will be able to visit their mosques just like always , nothing's changed in that regard.
    Jerusalem is also holy to Christians. Furthermore, many Palestinians are Christians. George Habash, who founded the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was a Palestinian Christian. Over the years, many of the senior members of the PLO have been Palestinian Christians.

    Although most Palestinian Christians have over the years migrated to other parts of the world, as of 2000, there were more than half a million who classed themselves as being "Palestinian Christians" regardless of where they lived.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  47. #47
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  48. #48
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    He didn't do this to promote peace. He didn't do this as a strategic move to start a conflict.

    He simply did this because the Robert Muller investigation regarding his Russia links is burning his administration. This is perfect to divert away from that, as well as throwing some meat to his base.

    All about his big fat ego. This ridiculous decision will prove costly in many ways.

    Let's get one thing straight - this 2 state soloution that we keep hearing about is now completely dead.
    It will be a one state solpution where's the Palestinians will be always be treated second class.
    Last edited by 90MPH; 6th December 2017 at 21:25.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post

    only thing that concerns me, Trump talk very frankly and he has said certain countries behind close doors are saying different to what they are saying in public, i can bet UK and Saudis are definitely on that list..

    Shameful, the sauds have sold their soul to the devil...

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90MPH View Post
    He didn't do this to promote peace. He didn't do this as a strategic move to start a conflict.

    He simply did this because the Robert Muller investigation regarding his Russia links is burning his administration. This is perfect to divert away from that, as well as throwing some meat to his base.

    All about his big fat ego. This ridiculous decision will prove costly in many ways.

    Let's get one thing straight - this 2 state soloution that we keep hearing about is now completely dead.
    It will be a one state solpution where's the Palestinians will be always be treated second class.
    The two state solution was dead ages ago, now the Pals need to get equal rights, one state for 2 peoples...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90MPH View Post
    He didn't do this to promote peace. He didn't do this as a strategic move to start a conflict.

    He simply did this because the Robert Muller investigation regarding his Russia links is burning his administration. This is perfect to divert away from that, as well as throwing some meat to his base.

    All about his big fat ego. This ridiculous decision will prove costly in many ways.

    Let's get one thing straight - this 2 state soloution that we keep hearing about is now completely dead.
    It will be a one state solpution where's the Palestinians will be always be treated second class.
    There is never an 'always'.

    A 'one state solution' will be the beginning of the end. Over time, the Palestinian/Arab population will outnumber the Jewish population. With the gap getting bigger year-by-year (think 30 ...40 ...50... years)

    When that time arises, how could then this 'Jewish/Palestinian single-state' continue to maintain policies that favour it's Jewish inhabitants? If it continued to do so, it will fall into the same trap as any other state where the minority group ruled over the majority, and giving itself preferential treatment as a result. ie Just like apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). And we all know what happened there.

    Minorities can't rule over majorities indefinitely in this day and age. Even more so if it calls itself a democracy.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  52. #52
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    .

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Wouldn't be surprised if people resort to violence in response to this move. Hope that doesn't happen because it'll only make things worse.
    That's a typical response though isn't it, some people are always on the lookout for a reason to be violent.

  54. #54
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    White man's world, white man's rule. Nothing muslims can do to except complain and protest. Our leaders left us with no choice.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    That's a typical response though isn't it, some people are always on the lookout for a reason to be violent.
    I suppose they should just lay down and die like the natives of Australia did when the colonialists and their convicts arrived?


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I suppose they should just lay down and die like the natives of Australia did when the colonialists and their convicts arrived?
    Ouch.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    That's a typical response though isn't it, some people are always on the lookout for a reason to be violent.
    If you ignore the whole context regarding the plight of the Palestinians, then yes, it may seem like that.

    Anyway, I can understand why some people might resort to that. Peaceful protests and demonstrations barely get any coverage nowadays; there's demonstrations underway already but not many are aware of it. I certainly haven't seen any mainstream media coverage. But I don't support violence as a). two wrongs don't make a right and b). it helps no one and ultimately, everyone is worse off.

    Regardless, it's pretty obvious who's causing the chaos this time around. I'm not sure if this is a game for Trump and he just thinks he can do whatever he wants, or whether this is one of his strategies. Whenever the pressure is mounting on him (in this case, it's the Russia investigation), it seems that he does something ridiculous to divert the attention. This isn't the first time.


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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    It is the holiest site to Judaism just like Mecca and Medina are to Islam , what part of that do you not understand ? Muslims in that area will be able to visit their mosques just like always , nothing's changed in that regard.
    It is holy site for Muslims before they were any people called Jews or Christians.
    Al Aqsa is first Qibla, we belive it is 2nd Mosque after Makkah Kaabah to be built on earth.
    All the Prophet's of Israel were Muslims ie those who submit to the will of God.
    None of them called themselves Jews or Christian for that matter.
    Jeruslem will return to Muslims in future just as it was conqured back from crusaders.



  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    Regardless, it's pretty obvious who's causing the chaos this time around. I'm not sure if this is a game for Trump and he just thinks he can do whatever he wants, or whether this is one of his strategies. Whenever the pressure is mounting on him (in this case, it's the Russia investigation), it seems that he does something ridiculous to divert the attention. This isn't the first time.
    To be fair to Trump, in fact to the vast majority of US politicians, when it comes to matters regarding Israel and the Middle East, Trump (and most other US politicians) are just the monkeys. We know who the organ grinders are (hint: They might be Americans by name and citizenship, but their primary loyalties lie elsewhere).


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  60. #60
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    To better understand Trump's actions, always look at key events before or after.

    It's always a way to divert attention because he has the media in his hands. They eat up everything he says to increase their ratings.

    In this case, it's the Muller investigation.


    May the Hawks Fly Forever. Lightning Hawks CC -- Team Thread.

  61. #61
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  62. #62
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    Lol let Trump and the USA deal with the consequences. Trump will realize in due course that he can't just say whatever he wants to say, whatever is in his mind and heart, he can't just do whatever he wants to do and whatever is in his heart, every decision or step he takes will have consequences for him, the US overall. He or the US does not exist in a Vaccum.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Trump has set in motion a chain of events that, in my opinion, will eventually lead to the downfall of the Saudi Monarchy.

    MBS thought he was being clever, by getting the young Saudis on his side, by allowing women to drive, by imprisoning those of his cousins that he thought might be a threat to him in the future, and most importantly, by getting into bed with Jared Kushner, Donald Trump and the Israelis. The same Jared Kushner who's behind this announcement by Trump. (see my post #32 above).

    But now Jared Kushner/ Donald Trump have provided MBS's opponents, especially the Saudi clerics (who MBS has been trying to sideline) with a cause that they can use to rally the masses against MBS, not least by accusing MBS as being in cahoots with Kushner/Trump in this decision.
    You are right, but there is just one piece left to complete that chain of events

    You need Trump to tweet or say (by mistake) that his good friend, MBS, was aware of this announcement and had supported it (which I am sure he has).

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    You are right, but there is just one piece left to complete that chain of events

    You need Trump to tweet or say (by mistake) that his good friend, MBS, was aware of this announcement and had supported it (which I am sure he has).
    The 1st (next) Arab leader who visits Trump in the White House, and is seen posing with Trump, will be signing his own demise.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  65. #65
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    Palestinians injured in protests over US Jerusalem move

    Thousands of Palestinians have taken to the streets of Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to protest against the US decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a contentious move that has inflamed tensions in Palestine and across the region.

    In the occupied West Bank, Palestinians clashed with Israeli forces in a handful of cities throughout Thursday.

    At least 49 Palestinians were injured in the protests, and 16 were sent to hospital, according to local health authorities in the West Bank.

    Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel-Hamid, reporting from Ramallah, said the clashes were dissipating after "several hours of quite vigorous confrontation between the youth and the Israeli army".

    Palestinian protesters gathered at the central Al Manara square in Ramallah and marched towards El Bireh, where they were met by Israeli troops firing tear gas and rubber bullets.

    Protests were also held in Hebron, Nablus, Jenin, Tulkarem and Jericho in the West Bank, according to Anadolu news agency, as well as in East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.

    At least four Palestinians were injured in Gaza after Israeli soldiers fired live ammunition at dozens of demonstrators who assembled east of Khan Younes, in the southern part of the coastal territory, according to Palestinian news agency, Wafa.


    Days of Rage

    Palestinians had called for three days of rage in response to Trump's announcement on Wednesday, and for the closure of local schools and stores.

    Al Jazeera's Harry Fawcett, reporting from East Jerusalem on Thursday, said a small-scale protest had been ongoing for most of the day outside Damascus Gate, the main entrance to the Old City.

    "There has been a good deal of anger and just disbelief at what has happened overnight coming out of the White House," he said.

    Israeli police, meanwhile, attempted to break up the protest and confiscated Palestinian flags, he reported.

    In Ramallah, Al Jazeera's Abdel-Hamid said "another round of confrontations" between Palestinians and Israeli soldiers was expected on Friday.

    "We expect more scenes [of] violence and unrest across the entire occupied West Bank," she said.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...135501865.html


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  66. #66
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    The US have always recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

    Obama June 4th 2008
    "Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable.

    "The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper ó but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognised and defensible borders.

    "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided. I have no illusions that this will be easy."
    Bush 2000
    "Something will happen when I'm president: as soon as I take office I will begin the process of moving the US ambassador to the city Israel has chosen as its capital."
    Clinton 1993
    "I have always wanted to move our embassy to west Jerusalem. We have a designated site there. I have not done so because I didn't want to do anything to undermine our ability to help to broker a secure and fair and lasting peace for Israelis and for Palestinians."

  67. #67
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    Trump just wants war. He is influenced by evangelical Christians who want to accelerate what they call the "rapture". This to them can not occur until Israel takes over the entire Middle East. I do not care about Palestine at all, Pakistan should never get involved in Arab wars. We got our own country to sort out, let the great Arab's fight their own battles. Only a crackpot like Zaid Hamid wants Pak to get involved in foreign wars. Sab se pehle Pakistan


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Trump just wants war. He is influenced by evangelical Christians who want to accelerate what they call the "rapture". This to them can not occur until Israel takes over the entire Middle East. I do not care about Palestine at all, Pakistan should never get involved in Arab wars. We got our own country to sort out, let the great Arab's fight their own battles. Only a crackpot like Zaid Hamid wants Pak to get involved in foreign wars. Sab se pehle Pakistan
    So let’s watch the world burn around us. Than who is gonna be left to watch out for us?
    Last edited by Sean143; 8th December 2017 at 10:36.

  69. #69
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    Well the only reason no-one has taken this step until now is that it legitimises Israel's existence as a sovereign state...and of course the Arab and Muslim world are opposed to the very existence of Israel...

    Jerusalem has long been the capital for Israelis...and those who are opposed to it have more or less shown their position...accepting their decision of a capital city means accepting their existence...

    Haniyeh has said that ALL of Israel is Palestine...Abbas has said ALL of Jerusalem is Palestine...and even the clips shown from around the Muslim world have echoed that mantra...

    The idea that the issue is Jerusalem or 1967 etc usually masks the fact that many are simply opposed to Israel and believe they should all somehow get up and leave...the issue has always been Balfour and 1948...

    Netanyahu also shows no interest in dividing up Jerusalem...and has been building housing in Eastern Jerusalem...

    The notion that this kills the peace process is nonsensical...because it presumes there is a peace process...it doesn't exist...Trumps action simply confirms it...

    He did do the futile thing of saying the borders need to be discussed between both sides...something that was neglected in discussion because of course the very idea that Jews want sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem is bad enough...

    It's a very odd position to take...because in essence for many there is no room for compromise yet they expect Israel to make compromises...if your enemy wants you gone then it makes perfect sense that you would want their position to be weak...and you would exert strength...its power politics and real politik...the same argument would be valid if the shoe was on the other foot...

    Arabs hate Israelis and Israelis hate Arabs so there is NO prospect for peace...if Israelis compromise on anything it weakens their position...

    It was quite laughable actually to hear someone discussing a one state solution with me the other day...i mean somehow it makes rational sense to allow oneself to be a minority around your enemies...what possible incentive is there for Israel to make the likes of Hamas, PA or Hezbollah stronger?...

    Furthermore this idea that this will fan the flames suggests both sides are at peace or something...there have already been a few Days of Rage this year...

    Israel can handle Hamas rockets without a problem with their defence systems...all Hamas are doing is causing Palestinians additional problems...if you're gonna attack you at the very least need to be able to achieve some sort of result which doesn't put your own in additional danger...

    But then nation state leaders are judged by their ability to keep their own safe...militias whether that be Hamas or FARC benefit from death of their own...

  70. #70
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    Netanyahu sure benefitted from assassination of Rabin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assass..._Yitzhak_Rabin

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Well the only reason no-one has taken this step until now is that it legitimises Israel's existence as a sovereign state...and of course the Arab and Muslim world are opposed to the very existence of Israel...

    Jerusalem has long been the capital for Israelis...and those who are opposed to it have more or less shown their position...accepting their decision of a capital city means accepting their existence...

    Haniyeh has said that ALL of Israel is Palestine...Abbas has said ALL of Jerusalem is Palestine...and even the clips shown from around the Muslim world have echoed that mantra...

    The idea that the issue is Jerusalem or 1967 etc usually masks the fact that many are simply opposed to Israel and believe they should all somehow get up and leave...the issue has always been Balfour and 1948...

    Netanyahu also shows no interest in dividing up Jerusalem...and has been building housing in Eastern Jerusalem...

    The notion that this kills the peace process is nonsensical...because it presumes there is a peace process...it doesn't exist...Trumps action simply confirms it...

    He did do the futile thing of saying the borders need to be discussed between both sides...something that was neglected in discussion because of course the very idea that Jews want sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem is bad enough...

    It's a very odd position to take...because in essence for many there is no room for compromise yet they expect Israel to make compromises...if your enemy wants you gone then it makes perfect sense that you would want their position to be weak...and you would exert strength...its power politics and real politik...the same argument would be valid if the shoe was on the other foot...

    Arabs hate Israelis and Israelis hate Arabs so there is NO prospect for peace...if Israelis compromise on anything it weakens their position...

    It was quite laughable actually to hear someone discussing a one state solution with me the other day...i mean somehow it makes rational sense to allow oneself to be a minority around your enemies...what possible incentive is there for Israel to make the likes of Hamas, PA or Hezbollah stronger?...

    Furthermore this idea that this will fan the flames suggests both sides are at peace or something...there have already been a few Days of Rage this year...

    Israel can handle Hamas rockets without a problem with their defence systems...all Hamas are doing is causing Palestinians additional problems...if you're gonna attack you at the very least need to be able to achieve some sort of result which doesn't put your own in additional danger...

    But then nation state leaders are judged by their ability to keep their own safe...militias whether that be Hamas or FARC benefit from death of their own...
    That may be the case at the present.

    But as long as one side feels that their rights, lands and properties have been stolen from them, and they have been forced to make 'peace' under duress, then the underlying hatred will linger on for decades, even centuries, only to resurface again if/when they are in a strong position again.

    Just look at the Balkan States, and how those who's peoples were 'wronged' centuries ago are now trying to 'right' those 'wrongs'.

    So sure, Israel might be happy to keep the Palestinians subjugated for yet another half a century or more, that is unless Israel/USA force them to accept a 'peace deal' under duress, but what happens after that? Keep the status quo forever and a day?

    Think long term, and not just another decade or three.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 8th December 2017 at 11:48.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    That may be the case at the present.

    But as long as one side feels that their rights, lands and properties have been stolen from them, and they have been forced to make 'peace' under duress, then the underlying hatred will linger on for decades, even centuries, only to resurface again if/when they are in a strong position again.

    Just look at the Balkan States, and how those who's peoples were 'wronged' centuries ago are now trying to 'right' those 'wrongs'.

    So sure, Israel might be happy to keep the Palestinians subjugated for yet another half a century or more, that is unless Israel/USA force them to accept a 'peace deal' under duress, but what happens after that? Keep the status quo forever and a day?

    Think long term, and not just another decade or three.

    Damage is done...the peace process is dead...both sides have moved to the right...and in Israels case their death toll has severely declined in the last decade despite efforts from the other side...Israel can handle the likes of Hamas a lot better now...in terms of security it's doing a lot better than it had done...Hamas's little rockets are largely ineffectual...

    And yes you are right that if the other side becomes strong again then it will be a disaster...so surely from a rational viewpoint there is a strong interest in ensuring that side continues to be weak...

    What do you suggest Israel should do?...make concessions?...when the opponent desires your obliteration it's suicide to start making compromises especially from a position of strength...

  73. #73
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    Trump is an idiot and did this for his own selfish reasons but I have to laugh at people who, with a straight face, say that heís killed the peace process. Ermm what peace process? How can you kill something that doesnít exist? Nothing of note, towards peace, has happened for decades.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Damage is done...the peace process is dead...both sides have moved to the right...and in Israels case their death toll has severely declined in the last decade despite efforts from the other side...Israel can handle the likes of Hamas a lot better now...in terms of security it's doing a lot better than it had done...Hamas's little rockets are largely ineffectual...

    And yes you are right that if the other side becomes strong again then it will be a disaster...so surely from a rational viewpoint there is a strong interest in ensuring that side continues to be weak...

    What do you suggest Israel should do?...make concessions?...when the opponent desires your obliteration it's suicide to start making compromises especially from a position of strength...
    It is quite intriguing that the Palestinians have not had access to more damaging hardware in recent history. Might be they are helpless and dumb, or maybe they just recognise that in an out and out war they don't have a chance. I find it hard to believe that the Israeli defence measures can be that outstanding that they can't be touched in this day and age.

    As far as I'm concerned it's an Arab issue, it's up to them to make any deals with Israel, or fight wars if that's what they want. It will sort itself out one way or the other in the end.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    To better understand Trump's actions, always look at key events before or after.

    It's always a way to divert attention because he has the media in his hands. They eat up everything he says to increase their ratings.

    In this case, it's the Muller investigation.
    Its also partly a result of pressure from his donors, namely his top donor Sheldon Adelson who is a Netanyahu ally.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...581_story.html

    An important outside voice advising Trump to make the leap was Adelson’s, according to several people familiar with the two men’s conversations. At a White House dinner earlier this year, Adelson made the issue a main topic, one person said. In the months that followed, Adelson periodically asked others close to Trump what was causing the delay and expressed frustration, these people said.

    Several advisers said he did not seem to have a full understanding of the issue and instead appeared to be focused on “seeming pro-Israel,” in the words of one, and “making a deal,” in the words of another.
    Turns out "Drain the Swamp" was a big, fat lie as were the claims from his blind supporters that Trump "can't be bought" or would stand up to Israeli interests. His son-in-law Kushner was a director of a foundation that funded illegal settlements so this administration has no intention of being a fair broker, not that the US ever were.

    The actual announcement is symbolic in reality and doesn't rule out the possibility of a divided Jerusalem in a final agreement (of which the prospect is increasingly slim) but in a region where symbolism matters, its an act of diplomatic arson and puts the US at odds with the rest of the world.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Damage is done...the peace process is dead...both sides have moved to the right...and in Israels case their death toll has severely declined in the last decade despite efforts from the other side...Israel can handle the likes of Hamas a lot better now...in terms of security it's doing a lot better than it had done...Hamas's little rockets are largely ineffectual...

    And yes you are right that if the other side becomes strong again then it will be a disaster...so surely from a rational viewpoint there is a strong interest in ensuring that side continues to be weak...

    What do you suggest Israel should do?...make concessions?...when the opponent desires your obliteration it's suicide to start making compromises especially from a position of strength...
    Still thinking short term ( a few decades? a half a century?). But long term? When the Palestinian/Arab population in Israel proper + occupied territories is rising faster than those of Jewish descent?

    The Israelis have been winning the 'battles' for the last 70 odd years, and will probably continue doing so for the next half century or so. But are they likely to win the 'war' long term? Highly unlikely considering the hate and resentment they are stoking up for generations to come.

    The history of the Holy Lands themselves should be pretty good indications. 70 years,... a century,.... a century and a half, .... is nothing within that context.


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

  77. #77
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    The Arab population in Israel is not growing at a significantly higher rate than the Jewish population. The people in Gaza and West Bank will never be citizens of Israel and with increased settlements their living conditions will continue to deteriorate To assume these people will be able to defeat a technologically advanced Israeli army and effect a change is laughable really. For people talking about the long game, what do you think the Israelis are playing?

  78. #78
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    Palestine recognizing Texas as part of Mexico is funniest retort ever.


    Yet again the States got their behinds handed to them. Been a common occurrence of late.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBK_Fan View Post
    The Arab population in Israel is not growing at a significantly higher rate than the Jewish population. The people in Gaza and West Bank will never be citizens of Israel and with increased settlements their living conditions will continue to deteriorate To assume these people will be able to defeat a technologically advanced Israeli army and effect a change is laughable really. For people talking about the long game, what do you think the Israelis are playing?
    Poor fellow. Thinking short term. Read the post #76 above yours. Think L...O...N...G term!


    ďIn individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the ruleĒ

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    Thing is Israel is already very dense...i mean some classrooms have upto 40 kids...hospitals have long waiting times and there is lots of traffic...by 2040 Israels population is projected to grow by 5m...with the number of elderly doubling...and the Haredi population too...they are 11% currently...

    Israel when it was created had a population of 850,000 and that has gone up tenfold...Israelis are starting to emigrate but they get 25,000 new immigrants themselves a year...

    Haredi's have 6.5children on average...Bedouins 5.5...

    Palestinian Arabs as it happens were averaging 8.5 at one point....it was encouraged for Israelis to have more children as apatriotic act but this is coming back to bite them a bit ...there are large subsidies paid to big families...Haredis for instance are 65% of those who are unemployed...

    Bibi sort of addressed this by cutting child allowances in half which lowered the birth rate...

    Now imagine what a popualtion disaster a one state solution qwould be...

    Israeli Arabs have less kids than Jewish kids so they arent a demographic weapon in Israel proper...

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