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  1. #1
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    France: Court orders halal supermarket in Paris to close because it does not sell pork or wine

    France has ordered a halal supermarket in Paris to close because it does not sell pork or wine.

    The Good Price mini-market in Colombes did not comply with the conditions of its lease, which stated the shop must act as a "general food store," the Court of Nanterre ruled.

    The local authority argued members of the local community were not being served properly because the shop did not sell pork or alcohol products.

    A bailiff's report said the store almost exclusively stocked halal products.

    When the manager was questioned at the time, he said: "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."

    His lawyer argued alcohol "is not part of the general diet" and the store had no obligations to sell it as it was only a complement to food.

    The court said the products the shop stocked were "restrictive and did not fit the broad concept of general good."

    It ordered the termination of the store's lease and ordered the eviction of the tenants.

    The manager was ordered to pay €4,000 to the local authority in legal costs.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8092316.html


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  2. #2
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    Skim reading around the subject. Two types of licenses: specialist and general. Storeowner applied for general, doesn't stock general items. Fined accordingly.

  3. #3
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    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.


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    As long as this doesn't stop people in Paris from getting Halal food elsewhere there isn't a problem with this but it seems a bit extreme to close it down because it doesn't include two items. It's not like Paris only has one supermarket and the people who live there are "starved" of these items if this store doesn't include them. It seems a bit backwards but I guess I should expect this sort of stuff from France.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by WC-Passion View Post
    As long as this doesn't stop people in Paris from getting Halal food elsewhere there isn't a problem with this but it seems a bit extreme to close it down because it doesn't include two items. It's not like Paris only has one supermarket and the people who live there are "starved" of these items if this store doesn't include them. It seems a bit backwards but I guess I should expect this sort of stuff from France.
    No. The license applied was the incorrect one. Should have applied for a specialist license and would not have been charged.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by maverick85 View Post
    Skim reading around the subject. Two types of licenses: specialist and general. Storeowner applied for general, doesn't stock general items. Fined accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.
    In many areas of the UK with large Muslim populations, local branches of Supermarket chains likes Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, Morrissons, Costco etc. sell halal meat, sometimes even having separate halal meat butchers areas within the store. Meaning there is a demand for halal meat in the stores customer catchment areas.

    Similar for areas with large Chinese populations and extensive selections of Chinese food products.

    Conversley, since there are hardly any Muslims or Chinese around where I live, none of the aforementioned supermarkets sell halal meat/chicken, and only sell a very limited amount of Chinese cooking ingredients.

    When the manager was questioned at the time, he said: "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."
    Surely, even a 'general store' is entitled to only stock those items for which, in his opinions, there is local demand. What would be the point of him stocking pork products if there is no demand for them amongst his customers, meaning he has to keep buying, and discarding pork products (after the sell-by-date) on a continuous basis, thereby losing money?

    Appears as if there is some sort of agenda by some locals or members of the local council.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 5th December 2017 at 19:16.


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    No. The license applied was the incorrect one. Should have applied for a specialist license and would not have been charged.
    In that case, it was a fair decision. Otherwise it seemed a bit unnecessary.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by WC-Passion View Post
    In that case, it was a fair decision. Otherwise it seemed a bit unnecessary.
    A 'general' license does not mean that the store has to stock everything going. Surely a store owner is entitled to gauge what his customer base is likely to buy and thus stock products accordingly. If his customer base is predominantly Muslims who will not buy pork products, then why should he be forced to stock them, discard them (sell-by-date!), buy them, discard them, buy them, discard them ..... and keep losing money?


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    No. The license applied was the incorrect one. Should have applied for a specialist license and would not have been charged.
    Can you please provide some information(official) as to what a general store MUST sell?
    Last edited by KingKhanWC; 5th December 2017 at 19:37.


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    Decision reeks of Islamophobia.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    In many areas of the UK with large Muslim populations, local branches of Supermarket chains likes Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, Morrissons, Costco etc. sell halal meat, sometimes even having separate halal meat butchers areas within the store. Meaning there is a demand for halal meat in the stores customer catchment areas.

    Similar for areas with large Chinese populations and extensive selections of Chinese food products.

    Conversley, since there are hardly any Muslims or Chinese around where I live, none of the aforementioned supermarkets sell halal meat/chicken, and only sell a very limited amount of Chinese cooking ingredients.



    Surely, even a 'general store' is entitled to only stock those items for which, in his opinions, there is local demand. What would be the point of him stocking pork products if there is no demand for them amongst his customers, meaning he has to keep buying, and discarding pork products (after the sell-by-date) on a continuous basis, thereby losing money?

    Appears as if there is some sort of agenda by some locals or members of the local council.
    Do you have information on the demographic make up of the area? I would believe if it were a pre dominantly Muslim area, his lawyer should be able to chart the low sales/cost of these items?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    A 'general' license does not mean that the store has to stock everything going. Surely a store owner is entitled to gauge what his customer base is likely to buy and thus stock products accordingly. If his customer base is predominantly Muslims who will not buy pork products, then why should he be forced to stock them, discard them (sell-by-date!), buy them, discard them, buy them, discard them ..... and keep losing money?
    Depends on the amount being stocked.

    Is there a limit?

    For example, you could easily stock 2-3 bottles of wine and say you're following the rules unless there's a minimum.


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  13. #13
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    No halal store applies for wrong license and has to close down. In many western cities the store space is limited so you need to meet the requirements of the area to be able to use the space.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.
    This doesn't even make sense but it's a statement which is often repeated here. Even if Muslims don't give rights to minorities in their countries - which is a dubious statement in itself - what has that got to do with the store manager in France? He's a French citizen I presume, trading under France's laws as he is required. Are you saying he should be punished based on laws from other countries around the world?


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    A 'general' license does not mean that the store has to stock everything going. Surely a store owner is entitled to gauge what his customer base is likely to buy and thus stock products accordingly. If his customer base is predominantly Muslims who will not buy pork products, then why should he be forced to stock them, discard them (sell-by-date!), buy them, discard them, buy them, discard them ..... and keep losing money?
    You sound like you believe that the store doesent sell pork and alcohol because there is no demand and not because of his religious beliefs.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    No. The license applied was the incorrect one. Should have applied for a specialist license and would not have been charged.
    I wonder if there was some ambiguity around this stipulation? I am sure the store owner would have applied for specialist if it was clear that halal counts as specialist. Usually in the UK selling alcohol requires a specialist licence, but in France we have already seen there has been local authority efforts to impose pork as stipulatory inclusions for school meals in high Muslim areas.


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  17. #17
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    People need to understand French culture. They are as much pro pork, as they are pro dog meat. If there is demand for tender puppy meat, they will stipulate general stores to stock it. Their founding values are liberty, equality and fraternity after all.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    People need to understand French culture. They are as much pro pork, as they are pro dog meat. If there is demand for tender puppy meat, they will stipulate general stores to stock it. Their founding values are liberty, equality and fraternity after all.
    I think French culture has changed in the past decade, as I mentioned, there was the outcry over the local authority which made pork the mandatory meat option in a town replacing the halal meat. Nothing wrong with that, like Syed bhai, said, their country, their rules, but perhaps there is some confusion what constitutes specialist and what constitutes general due to a change in emphasis recently. I am sure following this case, that confusion should be lifted ongoing.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    You sound like you believe that the store doesent sell pork and alcohol because there is no demand and not because of his religious beliefs.
    When the manager was questioned at the time, he said: "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."
    That sounds like the store owner is stocking what he thinks will generate the most sales in his store given the customer base. Why should he be stocking products that take valuable shelf space (and/or cooler/freezer space), as well as a financial outlay, if in his opinion there is no demand for those products amongst his customer base? More so if he must discard such products if/when they reach the sell-by date (in the case of pork products) and are still unsold.

    And last but not least, he also has to bear in mind the customers he will lose if he starts stocking pork products.

    I can virtually guarantee (having at one time lived in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood when working/living in the States), that if a Jewish store owner, who's main clientele consisted of orthodox Jewish customers, will lose most of his clientele if he started stocking and selling pork.


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  20. #20
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    How are the other supermarkets getting away with it?

    A quick look at Google Maps shows there's another halal supermarket about 7-8 minutes away from this one.

    Is this a case of the shop owner purposely applying for the "General" license (lesser restrictions/lesser fees?) when everyone else is applying for the "Specialist" license?


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.
    While it may sound like no big deal for some, local residents have complained that they have to travel much further just to grab a bottle of vin rouge to go with dinner.

    The head of the housing authority that owns the shop, Olivier Virolle, has filed an appeal to terminate the lease because he says the current shopkeeper isn't respecting the conditions of the contract, namely that the store act as a "general supermarket".

    "It's a communalist supermarket not just because of what's not there, but also what is there, namely prayer mats and 95 percent of the meat being Halal," Virolle told Le Parisien newspaper.
    .



  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    That sounds like the store owner is stocking what he thinks will generate the most sales in his store given the customer base. Why should he be stocking products that take valuable shelf space (and/or cooler/freezer space), as well as a financial outlay, if in his opinion there is no demand for those products amongst his customer base? More so if he must discard such products if/when they reach the sell-by date (in the case of pork products) and are still unsold.

    And last but not least, he also has to bear in mind the customers he will lose if he starts stocking pork products.

    I can virtually guarantee (having at one time lived in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood when working/living in the States), that if a Jewish store owner, who's main clientele consisted of orthodox Jewish customers, will lose most of his clientele if he started stocking and selling pork.
    Won't it be discrimanatory for other halaal stores who are using specialist licenses, when they can use this argument of demand and stock only specific items with general license?



  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingusama92 View Post
    How are the other supermarkets getting away with it?

    A quick look at Google Maps shows there's another halal supermarket about 7-8 minutes away from this one.

    Is this a case of the shop owner purposely applying for the "General" license (lesser restrictions/lesser fees?) when everyone else is applying for the "Specialist" license?
    Could be possible. Like in Bollywood, they apply for Universal certificate even if it has adult content, as they want more footfalls.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlizeeFan View Post
    Won't it be discrimanatory for other halaal stores who are using specialist licenses, when they can use this argument of demand and stock only specific items with general license?
    Doesn't invalidate the argument that a shop keeper is entitled to stock products that he believes the majority of his clientele are most likely to buy and generate profit for him as long as the products are not excluded from the type of license he holds.

    As I said earlier, would you expect a Jewish store owner to stock pork if the majority of his customers are orthodox Jews who will stop buying from his shop if does, resulting in him going out of business because he's lost the majority of his customers?

    In the OP example, with the local council forcing him to close, is that going to facilitate the availability of alcohol and pork? Of course, the real reason behind it all could be that someone else wished to take over the lease, someone who had the right connections at the local council. Although he might then discover that the halal buying customers may go elsewhere because they do not trust him 100% that pork meat has been handled completely separately from the halal products.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 6th December 2017 at 16:45.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Could be possible. Like in Bollywood, they apply for Universal certificate even if it has adult content, as they want more footfalls.
    But surely, even though they have a Universal certificate, they are not obliged to show adult films and/or films with adult content? All it means is that they can, if they wished to do so? But they are not forced to do so. More so if their catchment area is primarily family orientated.


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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    But surely, even though they have a Universal certificate, they are not obliged to show adult films and/or films with adult content? All it means is that they can, if they wished to do so? But they are not forced to do so. More so if their catchment area is primarily family orientated.
    Those movies which should be for 18 plus, apply for universal because they want as much audience as possible. Here the storekeeper applied for general license so that people don't think it is just for muslims. So he gets muslims as well as non muslim customers. That is a possible reason why he applied for the general license. Otherwise why didn't he just apply for the specialist license, when the law allows him.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Doesn't invalidate the argument that a shop keeper is entitled to stock products that he believes the majority of his clientele are most likely to buy and generate profit for him as long as the products are not excluded from the type of license he holds.

    As I said earlier, would you expect a Jewish store owner to stock pork if the majority of his customers are orthodox Jews who will stop buying from his shop if does, resulting in him going out of business because he's lost the majority of his customers?

    In the OP example, with the local council forcing him to close, is that going to facilitate the availability of alcohol and pork? Of course, the real reason behind it all could be that someone else wished to take over the lease, someone who had the right connections at the local council. Although he might then discover that the halal buying customers may go elsewhere because they do not trust him 100% that pork meat has been handled completely separately from the halal products.
    It's important to remember the government vets all licensing applications (general/specialist) and approves based on a set criteria.

    I believe one of the criterion includes location to help map out placement of stores/hospitals/banks.

    It's why the court stated, "failed to meet the needs of all inhabitants of the residential area.” The general license is approved with an understanding pork/alcohol will be kept on the premises. If not, you apply for the specialist license and are approved along those lines (just like every other halal supermarket in Paris).

    There are one of two reasons why this has occurred:

    1) The shop owner was trying to be clever and avoid higher fees/increased inspections associated with specialist licensing
    2) The shop owner knew in advance he wouldn't receive approval for a specialist license because there's another "specialist" halal supermarket 7-8 minutes away.

    I have a good feeling this is a dodgy shop owner who had his bluff called and is now playing the 'I wasn't aware' card to wiggle his way out. If not, the 10-15 halal supermarkets spread across Paris (multiple in Colombus) would have been dragged to court too.

    Now there's a separate debate whether such licensing should be strict (you MUST sell alcohol) or lenient (you CAN sell alcohol) but it appears the court is clear about its interpretation for now.
    Last edited by kingusama92; 6th December 2017 at 17:47.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.
    I get the general premise of what you are saying. If this was about muslims in Switzerland or Sweden for example i’d fully agree, however France has looted muslim countries it colonised, it’s why they in return expected many migrants from said countries. Second I doubt this would happen if it was a kosher grocer


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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Doesn't invalidate the argument that a shop keeper is entitled to stock products that he believes the majority of his clientele are most likely to buy and generate profit for him as long as the products are not excluded from the type of license he holds.

    As I said earlier, would you expect a Jewish store owner to stock pork if the majority of his customers are orthodox Jews who will stop buying from his shop if does, resulting in him going out of business because he's lost the majority of his customers?
    Is there any law which prevents him from maintaining a halal store and ensuring that his stock is according to the demand?

    If there is a provision and license for that, then this argument doesn't hold anywhere in world.

    Thing is that the owner had an option for going for valid license and he just tried to act smart. He is free to stock as per the demand in that area, but it would only be fair to other halal stores if he is forced to go for similar license.
    Last edited by AlizeeFan; 7th December 2017 at 03:52.



  30. #30
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    Sounds very odd that a general store in France would not sell wine. Whenever I have gone to a general store they have had at least two isles dedicated to wine. The French are wine drinkers so I don't think that any store would not sell their stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Their country their rules. Muslims don't give minorities any rights in their own countries but want all the rights in foreign countries.
    If selling EtOH and pork were terms of the lease, the store owners shouldn't have signed it, so I'd have to agree. Otherwise a halal store shouldn't be legally bound even to sell actual zabiha halal meat, let alone alcohol or pork products.

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    A story with a lot of beef for the tabloids! mind the pun
    Last edited by Sean143; 7th December 2017 at 12:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    A 'general' license does not mean that the store has to stock everything going. Surely a store owner is entitled to gauge what his customer base is likely to buy and thus stock products accordingly. If his customer base is predominantly Muslims who will not buy pork products, then why should he be forced to stock them, discard them (sell-by-date!), buy them, discard them, buy them, discard them ..... and keep losing money?
    I highly doubt that all of the people in the local area of this supermarket are Muslim, and there are some people who want to be part of their customer base, but it doesn't sell the products that there is a demand for (pork and wine in this instance), so they don't shop there. I think if they knew that their supermarket was going to predominantly aim towards Muslims, (who will not buy these products) they should've gotten the specialist license, as it would be a supermarket stocking specifically for halal items.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WC-Passion View Post
    I highly doubt that all of the people in the local area of this supermarket are Muslim, and there are some people who want to be part of their customer base, but it doesn't sell the products that there is a demand for (pork and wine in this instance), so they don't shop there. I think if they knew that their supermarket was going to predominantly aim towards Muslims, (who will not buy these products) they should've gotten the specialist license, as it would be a supermarket stocking specifically for halal items.
    Completely missing the point.

    Surely the point of a 'general' license is that a store owner should be able to (not obliged to) stock whatever products, rightly or wrongly, he thinks he can sell and make a reasonable profit from. His business will then survive or fail on the decisions he takes.

    Whereas a 'specialist' license would, on the one hand, allow him to sell certain restricted products that a general license couldn't (eg hot food, as that would require compliance with various hygene regulations surrounding the serving of hot food), whilst also preventing him from selling various items that fall outside his specialist license remit.

    Point being that a general license should be one that says "you can stock these items if you wish to", as opposed to "you must stock these items regardless of whether they will generate a profit for you or not".

    And what about the existing local customers that buy from him on a regular basis? What about their rights and needs? By closing him down they too are being penalised.

    And lastly, by closing him down, is it going to suddenly make pork or alcohol more easily available? Unless of course someone is ready to over the premises and set up their own general store....which may be the real agenda behind it all.


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  35. #35
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    It appears that they issue licenses for shops in each area so that there is a general store to cater for everyone and licenses for specialist stores to cater for specialised items. If the holder of the general license does not cater for the everyone then locals will have to travel to other areas for general items. This shopkeeper has obviously taken the wrong license out and is not doing what he should. It is also not fair on the other shop owners that have taken out specialised licenses who are doing the right thing.

    The store owner has done the wrong thing and its as simple as that.

  36. #36
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    From another source, google is your friend.

    The Court of Nanterre ruled on Monday that the “Good Price” mini-market in Colombes failed to comply with the conditions of its lease, according to which the grocery must act as a "general food store,” La Liberation reported.

    The court ordered the termination of the store's lease and the eviction of the tenants. In addition, the owner must pay €4,000 to the local authority in respect of legal costs.

    The court ruled that the owner of the store had failed to meet “the needs of all inhabitants of the residential area.” The products that the shop stocked were "restrictive and did not fit the broad concept of general goods,” it added.

    Local residents complained that after the halal mini-market replaced a regular supermarket they were not being served properly, with halal products constituting 96 percent of what the grocery shop sold.
    It’s basically a public housing area, with highly subsidized apartments. The state owns the location, because it built and rents the apartments. In order to comply with regulations and laws, there must be a « general food store ». The court ruled that in order to be a « general food store », it must have pork and wine, which are part of the « general diet » in France (those are typical items that we use to compute inflation, for instance). It’s okay to have halal stuff (hell t probably is part of the general diet as well), but not exclusively, or it makes it a halal store rather than a general food store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    From another source, google is your friend.
    Exactly.

    Great find and precisely what I was pointing out in my post earlier.

    All first world nations methodically follow and apply zoning bylaws. They build their communities around these licenses whether it's banks/hospitals/schools/libraries/supermarkets. The same would have happened in the US, Canada, England, or Australia.


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    I was speaking to some Parisian Muslims who told me their are some towns where halal meat options in shops and restaurants are more available. A few not to far from Disneyland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    From another source, google is your friend.
    Seems pretty straightforward and clear. The courts were right in this instance and the store owner should have checked through the terms of his lease before deciding to go his own way.


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    A shop owner in France not willing to stock French wine is akin to a roadside vendor in a Mumbai suburb deciding that vada pavs are not fair game anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imrankhannsu View Post
    I was speaking to some Parisian Muslims who told me their are some towns where halal meat options in shops and restaurants are more available. A few not to far from Disneyland.
    Lots of immigrants in the 18th district. You'll easily find halal food there. Bit far from Disneyland though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Completely missing the point.

    Surely the point of a 'general' license is that a store owner should be able to (not obliged to) stock whatever products, rightly or wrongly, he thinks he can sell and make a reasonable profit from. His business will then survive or fail on the decisions he takes.

    Whereas a 'specialist' license would, on the one hand, allow him to sell certain restricted products that a general license couldn't (eg hot food, as that would require compliance with various hygene regulations surrounding the serving of hot food), whilst also preventing him from selling various items that fall outside his specialist license remit.

    Point being that a general license should be one that says "you can stock these items if you wish to", as opposed to "you must stock these items regardless of whether they will generate a profit for you or not".

    And what about the existing local customers that buy from him on a regular basis? What about their rights and needs? By closing him down they too are being penalised.

    And lastly, by closing him down, is it going to suddenly make pork or alcohol more easily available? Unless of course someone is ready to over the premises and set up their own general store....which may be the real agenda behind it all.
    I think there’s a bizarre dilemma that’s been created here.

    Obviously, the French government sees a store with a general license, and thinks that it must have all general items stocked regardless of profit, otherwise this wouldn’t have happened.

    I’m assuming that there will be another store that will replace this one as generally local supermarkets are replaced if they are closed down for one reason or another so the locals are able to buy what they need.

    There potentially is a hidden agenda against having specifically a halal supermarket in this area, and the licensing reason is a way to make it seem like there is a valid reason for the closure of this supermarket. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the case, especially after seeing what the French Government has done in the past.

    I wouldn’t expect to find out anytime soon though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WC-Passion View Post
    I think there’s a bizarre dilemma that’s been created here.

    Obviously, the French government sees a store with a general license, and thinks that it must have all general items stocked regardless of profit, otherwise this wouldn’t have happened.

    I’m assuming that there will be another store that will replace this one as generally local supermarkets are replaced if they are closed down for one reason or another so the locals are able to buy what they need.

    There potentially is a hidden agenda against having specifically a halal supermarket in this area, and the licensing reason is a way to make it seem like there is a valid reason for the closure of this supermarket. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the case, especially after seeing what the French Government has done in the past.

    I wouldn’t expect to find out anytime soon though.
    But there is another halal supermarket 7-8 minutes away and they're still open.

    And multiple other major halal supermarkets in those neighborhoods. Not to mention the multiple halal restaurants.

    The French government has shown its bias against Muslims/Islam so I can see why suspicions arise but this definitely seems like a regular zoning/licensing issue.


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    If the court thinks that Pork and wine are basic things which need to be available in the super market, it is fine. The shop owner should have applied for a specialist license.

    However that can open a pandora box of which things are necessary to be made available by the super markets. Surely the super markets cannot have every single item. Who decides which things are a must and which are not? I think it would always be something arbitrary and always dependent on the judgement of the court. Hence, it would never inspire any confidence among shop owners especially muslim ones who are likely to be viewed with an eye of suspicion.

    Another question is, if not selling pork and wine makes a market communal and biased against non-muslims, then isn't forcing a supermarket to sell pork and wine also communal and biased against muslims? Or are we going to act utilitarian and say we should only care about the majority? Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    If the court thinks that Pork and wine are basic things which need to be available in the super market, it is fine. The shop owner should have applied for a specialist license.

    However that can open a pandora box of which things are necessary to be made available by the super markets. Surely the super markets cannot have every single item. Who decides which things are a must and which are not? I think it would always be something arbitrary and always dependent on the judgement of the court. Hence, it would never inspire any confidence among shop owners especially muslim ones who are likely to be viewed with an eye of suspicion.

    Another question is, if not selling pork and wine makes a market communal and biased against non-muslims, then isn't forcing a supermarket to sell pork and wine also communal and biased against muslims? Or are we going to act utilitarian and say we should only care about the majority? Just a thought.
    The point that has been shown here is if the shopkeeper wanted to avoid selling pork and wine he needed to apply for a different license...so he wasn't forced to do anything just like the other halal meat shops have been able to stay open with their specialist licenses...

    We have stores here that cater to specific nationalities for instance...not just faiths...it would be wrong for them to claim a general license whilst say selling things for one community...

    Imagine going to a general store that didn't sell cigarettes for instance?...

    If the Muslim wants to act religiously in this case then he can apply for a different license...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    The point that has been shown here is if the shopkeeper wanted to avoid selling pork and wine he needed to apply for a different license...so he wasn't forced to do anything just like the other halal meat shops have been able to stay open with their specialist licenses...

    We have stores here that cater to specific nationalities for instance...not just faiths...it would be wrong for them to claim a general license whilst say selling things for one community...

    Imagine going to a general store that didn't sell cigarettes for instance?...

    If the Muslim wants to act religiously in this case then he can apply for a different license...
    Help me out here please.

    Is it determined that this particular muslim was not providing pork and wine because of his religious beliefs? I am certain there is no way that can be proved except a confession from him.

    The owner said he targets what he sees as a businessman. I dont care what intentions he had in "his heart" about his religion or any other thing. i only care about the demographic make up of his customers and his actions as a businessman to target them.

    Surely if the majority of his customers are muslims or jews, he would want to retain them by not keeping pork and alcohol in his shop AND at the same time also want the "Other" customers to buy the rest of the items which he provides as a general store owner. Isnt this justified to boost business? Or Do the courts not care about such business tactics and still want them to operate under a specialist license?? I am speaking purely from a business POV, not religious or any other view.

    Also, what do you think about my first point in my previous post? Isnt it a bit arbitrary to declare which items just have to be there in the markets at any cost and the items which are not essential? I know people will come and say that wine or pork is part of French culture but that doesnt prove anything. A lot of things are part of a place's culture but should it warrant closure of a shop if they dont sell a couple of such items? Ofcourse you can say its the court's verdict and has to be accepted. That is fine and accepted but it just doesnt sound , good...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Help me out here please.

    Is it determined that this particular muslim was not providing pork and wine because of his religious beliefs? I am certain there is no way that can be proved except a confession from him.

    The owner said he targets what he sees as a businessman. I dont care what intentions he had in "his heart" about his religion or any other thing. i only care about the demographic make up of his customers and his actions as a businessman to target them.

    Surely if the majority of his customers are muslims or jews, he would want to retain them by not keeping pork and alcohol in his shop AND at the same time also want the "Other" customers to buy the rest of the items which he provides as a general store owner. Isnt this justified to boost business? Or Do the courts not care about such business tactics and still want them to operate under a specialist license?? I am speaking purely from a business POV, not religious or any other view.

    Also, what do you think about my first point in my previous post? Isnt it a bit arbitrary to declare which items just have to be there in the markets at any cost and the items which are not essential? I know people will come and say that wine or pork is part of French culture but that doesnt prove anything. A lot of things are part of a place's culture but should it warrant closure of a shop if they dont sell a couple of such items? Ofcourse you can say its the court's verdict and has to be accepted. That is fine and accepted but it just doesnt sound , good...
    Let's say a general store owner is a vegetarian by belief...or abhors cigarettes...and then chooses not to sell them?...then should he be given a license to run a general store?...you expect to have certain things from your store...it's upto whoever understands the demographic make-up or national requirements to make that decision...stocking pork and wine is something i have seen in every general store in the West...

    If you don't want to store meat, or alcohol then don't apply for a general license...and apply for a specialist one...which is what the other halal meat shops have done, Jewish etc...or say a vegan store... i have a vegetarian store near me and a Russian store...they won't have general licenses and are free to stock what they please cos they aren't catering to the population at large...

    Irregardless of why he wasn't providing pork or wine this was the requirement of the license he signed...i'd expect the same off a Hindu storeowner with a general license ie to sell beef...or a Jewish one...to sell non Kosher...if they feel uncomfortable doing that then get the other license...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    The point that has been shown here is if the shopkeeper wanted to avoid selling pork and wine he needed to apply for a different license...so he wasn't forced to do anything just like the other halal meat shops have been able to stay open with their specialist licenses...

    We have stores here that cater to specific nationalities for instance...not just faiths...it would be wrong for them to claim a general license whilst say selling things for one community...

    Imagine going to a general store that didn't sell cigarettes for instance?...

    If the Muslim wants to act religiously in this case then he can apply for a different license...
    Do you live in France? If so, would i have to apply for a special licence if i decided not to stock tobacco on ethical grounds but otherwise sold items that met the 'requirements' of a general licence? I'd be interested to know what criteria has to be met for a general or special licence. Presuming you live in France and speak the language I'd be much obliged if you could impart some of your knowledge on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Help me out here please.

    Is it determined that this particular muslim was not providing pork and wine because of his religious beliefs? I am certain there is no way that can be proved except a confession from him.

    The owner said he targets what he sees as a businessman. I dont care what intentions he had in "his heart" about his religion or any other thing. i only care about the demographic make up of his customers and his actions as a businessman to target them.

    Surely if the majority of his customers are muslims or jews, he would want to retain them by not keeping pork and alcohol in his shop AND at the same time also want the "Other" customers to buy the rest of the items which he provides as a general store owner. Isnt this justified to boost business? Or Do the courts not care about such business tactics and still want them to operate under a specialist license?? I am speaking purely from a business POV, not religious or any other view.

    Also, what do you think about my first point in my previous post? Isnt it a bit arbitrary to declare which items just have to be there in the markets at any cost and the items which are not essential? I know people will come and say that wine or pork is part of French culture but that doesnt prove anything. A lot of things are part of a place's culture but should it warrant closure of a shop if they dont sell a couple of such items? Ofcourse you can say its the court's verdict and has to be accepted. That is fine and accepted but it just doesnt sound , good...
    The license was granted to sell general items as part of the lease. The reason this is in place is so that the people living in the area are guaranteed to be able to buy general items in their locality.

    The purpose of this is type of arrangement is to ensure everyone in the neighbourhood can shop locally. As an example if all the shop owners decided that bakery's gave the best profits and no one wanted to provide vegetables because the profits were to low then local people would have to travel to buy their vegetables.

    Provisions are in place so that all the local people are catered for when it comes to their shopping. This particular store owner has taken up the general store lease but failed to honour requirements of the lease and disadvantaged the local customers. He is free to open and sell whatever he wants a store but not when he agrees to a legal obligation to provide a service.

    The general store lease provided here is there to make sure that locals are able to buy a range of goods that caters for all people so they can shop locally. This means that the elderly don't have to travel distances to shop, there are a lot of reasons why people should have access to general products close to their homes.

    A good businessman not only turns a good profit but provides a service to the community as a whole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    And lastly, by closing him down, is it going to suddenly make pork or alcohol more easily available? Unless of course someone is ready to over the premises and set up their own general store....which may be the real agenda behind it all.
    This. My very first thought was how this matter was raised before the courts. It was either a random inspection of the area or an agenda at play. Who or why, we'll probably never know.

    One amusing aspect on this thread is that without sufficient knowledge of the matter some have showcased their prejudices behind a veneer of a seemingly willful obtuseness. It's the same old players at the same old game

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadabFakhar View Post
    Do you live in France? If so, would i have to apply for a special licence if i decided not to stock tobacco on ethical grounds but otherwise sold items that met the 'requirements' of a general licence? I'd be interested to know what criteria has to be met for a general or special licence. Presuming you live in France and speak the language I'd be much obliged if you could impart some of your knowledge on the subject.
    I said here...where I am...I live in Bucharest...we have specialist stores of all kinds around and general stores...general stores serve everything...the national dish here is formed from maize...you won't see a single store without it (general)...i also smoke and every general store stocks cigarettes...

    I quite like Russian food so go to a specialist Russian store...it doesn't serve cigarettes nor does it serve maize...but it does serve Pelmeni which i like...their license will be different...a fruit store or bakery are also not general stores...

    It's really not that difficult a concept to understand...other posters here have stated as much that there are plenty of halal meat shops with specialist licenses within the vicinity of the closed shop...

    If you get the correct license you can sell what you like...if you get a general license you are required to sell specific things which are deemed necessary for the general populace...

    So yeh if you wanted a general license you would need to store tobacco here...Romanians smoke...many do...if you have your ethics then apply for a different license...we have a vegan store here too which was opened on ethical grounds...they would just require a different license...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadabFakhar View Post
    This. My very first thought was how this matter was raised before the courts. It was either a random inspection of the area or an agenda at play. Who or why, we'll probably never know.

    One amusing aspect on this thread is that without sufficient knowledge of the matter some have showcased their prejudices behind a veneer of a seemingly willful obtuseness. It's the same old players at the same old game
    Evidently you didn't read the majority of this thread...

    There were complaints made by locals that this store replaced a supermarket but was supplying halal meat only, wasn't selling pork or alcohol...

    You may find that offensive...but the fact is the shopowner possessed the wrong license...

    If the French closed down a halal meat shop that had a specialist license then you would have every right to be annoyed...France is a place where discrimination is indeed on the rise...this example however is not one of them...

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    There is a big chinese supermarket near my house called Sunny. They have 2 separate meat counters on opposite sides of the store: first one offer non-halal meat and is run by non-muslims; second one offers halal meat only and is run by muslims. Whenever I have gone to this store, I have seen that there is rush on the halal meat section while the non-halal meat section has almost no customers. I suspect that some non-muslims also buy halal meat. Is not store having a loss in non-halal meat section in this case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I said here...where I am...I live in Bucharest...we have specialist stores of all kinds around and general stores...general stores serve everything...the national dish here is formed from maize...you won't see a single store without it (general)...i also smoke and every general store stocks cigarettes...

    I quite like Russian food so go to a specialist Russian store...it doesn't serve cigarettes nor does it serve maize...but it does serve Pelmeni which i like...their license will be different...a fruit store or bakery are also not general stores...

    It's really not that difficult a concept to understand...other posters here have stated as much that there are plenty of halal meat shops with specialist licenses within the vicinity of the closed shop...

    If you get the correct license you can sell what you like...if you get a general license you are required to sell specific things which are deemed necessary for the general populace...

    So yeh if you wanted a general license you would need to store tobacco here...Romanians smoke...many do...if you have your ethics then apply for a different license...we have a vegan store here too which was opened on ethical grounds...they would just require a different license...
    This is about the application of business law. Even if you knew about Romanian business law it'd still be somewhat different to a municipality in France. As Yossarian has pointed out, he may not have been obliged to sell every general item but we're shooting in the dark because neither you or I know the terms of his lease. It's why i asked whether you live in France. God knows why you're comparing 'general concepts' of your experiences in Romania to particular clauses of a legal document in France.

    It's simple for me. I don't pretend to know French business law so i can't make judgements which is why i asked you those questions because you've mentioned the owner's religious reasons to not stock pork or alcohol. The more i read into it the more it seems like a social and political statement than a correct legal ruling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Evidently you didn't read the majority of this thread...

    There were complaints made by locals that this store replaced a supermarket but was supplying halal meat only, wasn't selling pork or alcohol...

    You may find that offensive...but the fact is the shopowner possessed the wrong license...

    If the French closed down a halal meat shop that had a specialist license then you would have every right to be annoyed...France is a place where discrimination is indeed on the rise...this example however is not one of them...
    I read the entire thread and more which is how i came to understand upon what little information people have made judgements.

    I'm not offended nor have i mentioned this to be discriminatory. Don't let the machinations of your mind cast insinuations upon mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadabFakhar View Post
    This is about the application of business law. Even if you knew about Romanian business law it'd still be somewhat different to a municipality in France. As Yossarian has pointed out, he may not have been obliged to sell every general item but we're shooting in the dark because neither you or I know the terms of his lease. It's why i asked whether you live in France. God knows why you're comparing 'general concepts' of your experiences in Romania to particular clauses of a legal document in France.

    It's simple for me. I don't pretend to know French business law so i can't make judgements which is why i asked you those questions because you've mentioned the owner's religious reasons to not stock pork or alcohol. The more i read into it the more it seems like a social and political statement than a correct legal ruling.
    Gilly posted this earlier:

    The Court of Nanterre ruled on Monday that the “Good Price” mini-market in Colombes failed to comply with the conditions of its lease, according to which the grocery must act as a "general food store,” La Liberation reported.

    The court ordered the termination of the store's lease and the eviction of the tenants. In addition, the owner must pay €4,000 to the local authority in respect of legal costs.

    The court ruled that the owner of the store had failed to meet “the needs of all inhabitants of the residential area.” The products that the shop stocked were "restrictive and did not fit the broad concept of general goods,” it added.

    Local residents complained that after the halal mini-market replaced a regular supermarket they were not being served properly, with halal products constituting 96 percent of what the grocery shop sold.
    And other posters have pointed out that there are plenty of halal meat shops functioning which do not sell pork. Some within the vicinity of the store that has been closed down. There is no war on halal meat shops. Simply a mountain out of a molehill over one that was shut down because they applied for the wrong license.

    The local residents complained that it wasn't a general store and with 96% halal products and no alcohol I'm sure you will agree that fits the definition of a specialist store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Gilly posted this earlier:



    And other posters have pointed out that there are plenty of halal meat shops functioning which do not sell pork. Some within the vicinity of the store that has been closed down. There is no war on halal meat shops. Simply a mountain out of a molehill over one that was shut down because they applied for the wrong license.

    The local residents complained that it wasn't a general store and with 96% halal products and no alcohol I'm sure you will agree that fits the definition of a specialist store.
    It's not about applying for a licence, it's about the lease conditions which state "general food store and related activities". Gilly conveniently missed that part out. It's the interpretation of the latter the owner is disputing. The fact that you're mentioning 'licence' and not 'lease and eviction' vindicates my earlier posts

    In any case i said I read this "thread and more", here's the more:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ch-town-tells/

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/155827...lim-only-area/

    Now refer back to the obtuseness and prejudice post before you make your next reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadabFakhar View Post
    It's not about applying for a licence, it's about the lease conditions which state "general food store and related activities". Gilly conveniently missed that part out. It's the interpretation of the latter the owner is disputing. The fact that you're mentioning 'licence' and not 'lease and eviction' vindicates my earlier posts

    In any case i said I read this "thread and more", here's the more:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ch-town-tells/

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/155827...lim-only-area/

    Now refer back to the obtuseness and prejudice post before you make your next reply.
    Your posts only confirm what has already been stated on this thread:

    Good Price discount mini-market in Colombes has been told by the local housing authority, from which it rents its premises, that it has not followed the conditions on the lease that stipulate that the shop must act as a "general food store."
    Add the fact that it's actually a franchise...

    ll members of the local community are not being served properly if there are no alcohol or pork products in the Good Price store, which is run as a franchise
    He said locals, particularly older residents, had complained that they could no longer get the full range of products at Good Price, which replaced a regular supermarket, and had to travel some distance now to do their shopping.
    The owners argument...

    “I look around me and I target what I see. The lease states ‘general food store and related activities’ - but it all depends on how you interpret ‘related activities’,”
    So there is nothing wrong with selling halal meat...but he has to surely fit the standards of a general food store first...ie sell your halal meat and sell the pork as you have been asked to do...

    The issue is about it being a franchised supermarket...if it was just a halal meat shop it wouldn't be an issue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Let's say a general store owner is a vegetarian by belief...or abhors cigarettes...and then chooses not to sell them?...then should he be given a license to run a general store?...you expect to have certain things from your store...it's upto whoever understands the demographic make-up or national requirements to make that decision...stocking pork and wine is something i have seen in every general store in the West...

    If you don't want to store meat, or alcohol then don't apply for a general license...and apply for a specialist one...which is what the other halal meat shops have done, Jewish etc...or say a vegan store... i have a vegetarian store near me and a Russian store...they won't have general licenses and are free to stock what they please cos they aren't catering to the population at large...

    Irregardless of why he wasn't providing pork or wine this was the requirement of the license he signed...i'd expect the same off a Hindu storeowner with a general license ie to sell beef...or a Jewish one...to sell non Kosher...if they feel uncomfortable doing that then get the other license...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    The license was granted to sell general items as part of the lease. The reason this is in place is so that the people living in the area are guaranteed to be able to buy general items in their locality.

    The purpose of this is type of arrangement is to ensure everyone in the neighbourhood can shop locally. As an example if all the shop owners decided that bakery's gave the best profits and no one wanted to provide vegetables because the profits were to low then local people would have to travel to buy their vegetables.

    Provisions are in place so that all the local people are catered for when it comes to their shopping. This particular store owner has taken up the general store lease but failed to honour requirements of the lease and disadvantaged the local customers. He is free to open and sell whatever he wants a store but not when he agrees to a legal obligation to provide a service.

    The general store lease provided here is there to make sure that locals are able to buy a range of goods that caters for all people so they can shop locally. This means that the elderly don't have to travel distances to shop, there are a lot of reasons why people should have access to general products close to their homes.

    A good businessman not only turns a good profit but provides a service to the community as a whole.
    Thank you so much guys for taking out time to explain.

    He should have applied for a specialist license. However, i must say that the term "general goods" still remains loosely defined but i guess the courts are there to take that decision and that has to be accepted.

  60. #60
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    @shaykh

    Your posts only confirm what has already been stated on this thread:
    Not at all. Almost all discussion has related to whether the owner applied for the correct licence or not. This is clearly not the case and such an argument was posited probably in an attempt to discredit the owner. It was, however, always a case of abiding by his lease obligations and to his knowledge, he was. That is the LEGAL aspect to this case

    The articles provide the context of the underlying sentiment of the locals that prompted this place to be reported and for the tenant to act upon it. The article also mentions Jerome Besnard's comments citing 'secular ideals'. That is the POLITICAL and SOCIAL backdrop that addresses the who, how and why, but since you've made your mind up(before reading the articles) that discrimination doesn't apply here you need not trouble yourself about this any further.

    All in all, I don't think we have enough information to say whether the ruling was correct or not. We don't know the full terms of the lease, or whether the landlord was aware when he signed the lease over that it would become a store with predominantly halal products. There's too many unknowns to make a sound judgement on this. To those who became overnight experts of French Business Law and mentioned that he applied for the wrong licence to escape costs, I don't know whether it was down to prejudice or incomprehension.

    As mentioned above I find it amusing that people a) fail to read the article properly and b) fail to acknowledge all factors relating to a particular issue before making judgements. This thread, for me, exposes the sentiments of those who were ranting on about licensing, if of course they haven't already been exposed on other threads. They tried to determine that the Muslim owner was hoodwinking the council by applying for the wrong licence, yet it was all down to a few words on a property lease.

    I can honestly say as someone who has owned businesses I can sympathise with the owner, It's never easy for a new start-up and this guy has to go and do it all over again. I wouldn't begrudge him if he felt discriminated or that it was a local conspiracy to drive him out of town. I too would feel wronged.

  61. #61
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    Even if the store made a mistake, still it was unfair to close it.
    Fine should have been the most punishment that store should had to pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    There is a big chinese supermarket near my house called Sunny. They have 2 separate meat counters on opposite sides of the store: first one offer non-halal meat and is run by non-muslims; second one offers halal meat only and is run by muslims. Whenever I have gone to this store, I have seen that there is rush on the halal meat section while the non-halal meat section has almost no customers. I suspect that some non-muslims also buy halal meat. Is not store having a loss in non-halal meat section in this case?
    There's a lot of hypocricy and Islampophobia shown here under the guise of the store owner must sell everything because it's a 'general store' license and 'there are other halal supermarkets down the road'.

    Normally they're amongst the first to defend the rights of a businessman to make business decisions that are best for his business.

    Whereas here they are completely ignoring the point that the store owner himself has made, "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see." and expect him to take business decisions that are not profitable, but loss making, for him.

    Going by his statement, as a businessman, he has weighed up all the pros and cons of what he should stock, or not stock, based upon the demographics of the potential customers around him, and how much business he will gain versus how much he will lose depending upon what he stocks, the customers that get attracted to his store because of what he stocks/not stocks, and the customers that he loses because of what he stocks/not stocks.

    He obviously thinks that stocking pork and alcohol will create a net loss for him (for reasons mentioned above).

    Furthermore, presumably when he obtained the lease:
    either no one else was willing to open up a general store at that location,
    or no one else was prepared to pay the full cost of the lease,
    or he won the lease in an auction by bidding to pay more than anyone else.


    No matter which one of above was the case, the fact of the matter is that he's paying more to the council than anyone else was prepared to pay at the time he was granted the lease!

    And yet, they now want to take away his lease, which means that either someone else picks up the lease (perhaps the agenda all along), or no one else picks up the lease - meaning no general store - and everyone loses, including those who wished to buy pork pork & alcohol but also other products, those who didn't buy pork & alcohol but bought other products, as well as the council itself who now have an empty premises and no lease money coming in!


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadabFakhar View Post
    @shaykh

    All in all, I don't think we have enough information to say whether the ruling was correct or not. We don't know the full terms of the lease, or whether the landlord was aware when he signed the lease over that it would become a store with predominantly halal products. There's too many unknowns to make a sound judgement on this. To those who became overnight experts of French Business Law and mentioned that he applied for the wrong licence to escape costs, I don't know whether it was down to prejudice or incomprehension.

    As mentioned above I find it amusing that people a) fail to read the article properly and b) fail to acknowledge all factors relating to a particular issue before making judgements. This thread, for me, exposes the sentiments of those who were ranting on about licensing, if of course they haven't already been exposed on other threads. They tried to determine that the Muslim owner was hoodwinking the council by applying for the wrong licence, yet it was all down to a few words on a property lease.

    I can honestly say as someone who has owned businesses I can sympathise with the owner, It's never easy for a new start-up and this guy has to go and do it all over again. I wouldn't begrudge him if he felt discriminated or that it was a local conspiracy to drive him out of town. I too would feel wronged.
    There's a reason the landlord specifically mentioned "general food shop" in the agreement.

    In Paris, there's a stipulation called the "tous commerces” clause and it's included in all commercial lease agreements. This clause is verified upon agreement by the Chamber of Commerce or Trade. If the tenant's licensing doesn't check out, he/she can't sign the agreement. It will be cancelled automatically. The landlord has no say whatsoever.

    1) The landlord says he needs a general food store. He's restricted by zoning bylaws (would lose commercial rights on property if those regulations aren't followed)
    2) Agreement was signed and sent to the Chamber of Commerce for ratification
    3) It was approved because this shop owner had incorrect licensing otherwise it would never get to the next step
    4) Someone alerted the landlord and it went to court
    5) Court deemed the tenant didn't follow the lease and made him close up

    No one said they're an expert in French business law nor is anyone prejudiced against the owner. It's a case of making sense of the information.

    Your position was correct if all agreements didn't filter through the government. I would have even agreed the landlord weaseled a specialist store into where a general store was supposed to be and then tried to save face when people complained. However, that's impossible in Paris due to the two-step process for all commercial leases. This is what leads me to believe the shop owner is at fault here.


    May the Hawks Fly Forever. Lightning Hawks CC -- Team Thread.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    There's a lot of hypocricy and Islampophobia shown here under the guise of the store owner must sell everything because it's a 'general store' license and 'there are other halal supermarkets down the road'.

    Normally they're amongst the first to defend the rights of a businessman to make business decisions that are best for his business.

    Whereas here they are completely ignoring the point that the store owner himself has made, "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see." and expect him to take business decisions that are not profitable, but loss making, for him.

    Going by his statement, as a businessman, he has weighed up all the pros and cons of what he should stock, or not stock, based upon the demographics of the potential customers around him, and how much business he will gain versus how much he will lose depending upon what he stocks, the customers that get attracted to his store because of what he stocks/not stocks, and the customers that he loses because of what he stocks/not stocks.

    He obviously thinks that stocking pork and alcohol will create a net loss for him (for reasons mentioned above).

    Furthermore, presumably when he obtained the lease:
    either no one else was willing to open up a general store at that location,
    or no one else was prepared to pay the full cost of the lease,
    or he won the lease in an auction by bidding to pay more than anyone else.


    No matter which one of above was the case, the fact of the matter is that he's paying more to the council than anyone else was prepared to pay at the time he was granted the lease!

    And yet, they now want to take away his lease, which means that either someone else picks up the lease (perhaps the agenda all along), or no one else picks up the lease - meaning no general store - and everyone loses, including those who wished to buy pork pork & alcohol but also other products, those who didn't buy pork & alcohol but bought other products, as well as the council itself who now have an empty premises and no lease money coming in!
    IMO you are just looking to make it a muslim victim scenario.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    There's a lot of hypocricy and Islampophobia shown here under the guise of the store owner must sell everything because it's a 'general store' license and 'there are other halal supermarkets down the road'.
    By turning a law abiding issue as an anti muslim issue, you are only strengthening islamophobia and undermining a just cause. So well done.

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    Read through this thread seems like a simple case of wrong licensing.. What were the probability of him getting a specialist license when there was another halal shop nearby? Maybe he could only get general license so he got it but should have sold every general good then and not act like a halal shop only.. Seems to be he did wrong knowingly..

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    IMO you are just looking to make it a muslim victim scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    By turning a law abiding issue as an anti muslim issue, you are only strengthening islamophobia and undermining a just cause. So well done.
    No, it's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are claiming he's not selling alcohol and pork due to religious reasons, as opposed to the store owner himself stating ""It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."
    It's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are turning a businessman's business decisions into religious arguments by claiming he's doing it cause of religion and not because he wants to make the best business decisions that he thinks help his business.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    No, it's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are claiming he's not selling alcohol and pork due to religious reasons, as opposed to the store owner himself stating ""It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."
    It's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are turning a businessman's business decisions into religious arguments by claiming he's doing it cause of religion and not because he wants to make the best business decisions that he thinks help his business.
    Actually I said it's immaterial what his intentions are...whether it's a moral decision or a business one...if someone has a general food store and half his clientelle are say Muslim or Jewish he is still obliged to do what someone with a general food store should do...

    It's really not Islamaphobic to say that this isn't a Muslim being victimised for being Muslim...the other halal meat places are in place...and provide for their customers just as the other specialist shops...

    The shopkeeper may well have made a business decision...but he's done it with the wrong license...so the issue is actually Muslims turning it into a Muslim issue when it's clearly a situation where the shopkeeper happens to be Muslim...

    I would have the same argument if the shopkeeper was Jewish, vegetarian or Russian...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    No, it's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are claiming he's not selling alcohol and pork due to religious reasons, as opposed to the store owner himself stating ""It's business. I look around me and I target what I see."
    It's the hypocrites and Islamophobes who are turning a businessman's business decisions into religious arguments by claiming he's doing it cause of religion and not because he wants to make the best business decisions that he thinks help his business.
    Your arguments are an islamophobes dream. So please continue conflating genuine hatred for muslims, with technical legalities and people trying to play the system, and keep adding to islamophobia.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Your arguments are an islamophobes dream. So please continue conflating genuine hatred for muslims, with technical legalities and people trying to play the system, and keep adding to islamophobia.
    And yet in your previous post you quoted the first sentence whilst completely ignoring the rest of the post. How about trying to refute the points listed in the main body of the post rather than being offended by the first sentence alone? Perhaps it's hitting too close to home?

    Here, let me repost the rest of the post since you obviously forgot to read it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Whereas here they are completely ignoring the point that the store owner himself has made, "It's business. I look around me and I target what I see." and expect him to take business decisions that are not profitable, but loss making, for him.

    Going by his statement, as a businessman, he has weighed up all the pros and cons of what he should stock, or not stock, based upon the demographics of the potential customers around him, and how much business he will gain versus how much he will lose depending upon what he stocks, the customers that get attracted to his store because of what he stocks/not stocks, and the customers that he loses because of what he stocks/not stocks.

    He obviously thinks that stocking pork and alcohol will create a net loss for him (for reasons mentioned above).

    Furthermore, presumably when he obtained the lease:
    either no one else was willing to open up a general store at that location,
    or no one else was prepared to pay the full cost of the lease,
    or he won the lease in an auction by bidding to pay more than anyone else.


    No matter which one of above was the case, the fact of the matter is that he's paying more to the council than anyone else was prepared to pay at the time he was granted the lease!

    And yet, they now want to take away his lease, which means that either someone else picks up the lease (perhaps the agenda all along), or no one else picks up the lease - meaning no general store - and everyone loses, including those who wished to buy pork pork & alcohol but also other products, those who didn't buy pork & alcohol but bought other products, as well as the council itself who now have an empty premises and no lease money coming in!


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    And yet in your previous post you quoted the first sentence whilst completely ignoring the rest of the post. How about trying to refute the points listed in the main body of the post rather than being offended by the first sentence alone? Perhaps it's hitting too close to home?

    Here, let me repost the rest of the post since you obviously forgot to read it.
    I don't need or want to refute your points, when I know that you are defending someone who tried to play the system, by using the victim card. By doing so, you are lumping such people who play the victim card with real victims, and thus undermining the real victims' cause. Your pathetic excuse is that some muslim haters are justifying the court order, but they are only a mirror image of those who are playing the victim card where none exists. So please carry on helping spread islamophobia.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    I don't need or want to refute your points, when I know that you are defending someone who tried to play the system, by using the victim card. By doing so, you are lumping such people who play the victim card with real victims, and thus undermining the real victims' cause. Your pathetic excuse is that some muslim haters are justifying the court order, but they are only a mirror image of those who are playing the victim card where none exists. So please carry on helping spread islamophobia.
    You "don't need or want to refute your points" which form the main gist of the post, and yet you vehemently disgree with it, and instead go on a rant which simply confirms the first sentence in the original post
    More a case of your inability or refusal to understand the practical economics that the aforementioned points refer to me thinks.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    You "don't need or want to refute your points" which form the main gist of the post, and yet you vehemently disgree with it, and instead go on a rant which simply confirms the first sentence in the original post
    More a case of your inability or refusal to understand the practical economics that the aforementioned points refer to me thinks.
    You can laugh all you want but I would suggest that you should take up the cause of real victims if you are really, i mean, really concerned about islamophobia, instead of trying to make victims of perfectly able people who have freedom provided by law, yet shamelessly try to leech the system.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    You can laugh all you want but I would suggest that you should take up the cause of real victims if you are really, i mean, really concerned about islamophobia, instead of trying to make victims of perfectly able people who have freedom provided by law, yet shamelessly try to leech the system.
    Yet again you go on another rant because you "don't need or want to refute your points" which form the main gist of the post. With your inability or refusal to understand the practical economics that the aforementioned points refer to, and you repeatedly keeping on ranting and trying to divert attention from these business related points, you are simply confirming every time the first sentence in the original post.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yet again you go on another rant because you "don't need or want to refute your points" which form the main gist of the post. With your inability or refusal to understand the practical economics that the aforementioned points refer to, and you repeatedly keeping on ranting and trying to divert attention from these business related points, you are simply confirming every time the first sentence in the original post.
    If nothing else, at least address this point.

    Furthermore, presumably when he obtained the lease:
    either no one else was willing to open up a general store at that location,
    or no one else was prepared to pay the full cost of the lease,
    or he won the lease in an auction by bidding to pay more than anyone else
    .

    No matter which one of above was the case, the fact of the matter is that he's paying more to the council than anyone else was prepared to pay at the time he was granted the lease!

    And yet, they now want to take away his lease, which means that either someone else picks up the lease (perhaps the agenda all along), or no one else picks up the lease - meaning no general store - and everyone loses, including those who wished to buy pork pork & alcohol but also other products, those who didn't buy pork & alcohol but bought other products, as well as the council itself who now have an empty premises and no lease money coming in!
    Or then again perhapsyou can't, 'cause it's too deep for you to comprehend.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    If nothing else, at least address this point.

    Or then again perhapsyou can't, 'cause it's too deep for you to comprehend.
    You can try all your tomfoolery and laugh your evil villainous laugh. But I am not going to dignify you with a detailed response when all you are trying to spread is islamophobia.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    You can try all your tomfoolery and laugh your evil villainous laugh. But I am not going to dignify you with a detailed response when all you are trying to spread is islamophobia.
    In others words you can't. Due to an inability to comprehend the economics of the points listed. Fair enough.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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