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  1. #1
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    British Politics moving forward in 2018...

    The end of 2017 saw the end of Phase One of Brexit negotiations. If that wasn't hard enough, wait until Phase Two which begins in 2018 ! Phase Two talks are expected to further clarify the transitional arrangements after leaving and outline what the UK's future trading relationship with the EU will be.

    This threatens to further expose divisions in Theresa May's Cabinet and in the Conservative Party which has a small but vocal pro-Remain faction.

    Meanwhile, a resurgent Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, buoyed by the June election that wiped out Theresa May's majority, need to clarify what their position on Brexit is. The SNP are urging them to back staying in the Single Market - but given Labour previously ruled that out it'd be a major climbdown. Brexit also threatens to strain an already disunited Union.

    Brexit is not the only issue of course. The state of public housing is lamentable with housebuilding nowhere near fulfilling demand, the NHS faces serious staff shortages whilst wage stagnation has reached RECORD levels despite falling unemployment.

    So can UK PPers look into their crystal ball for 2018 and answer these questions:

    1) Will Theresa May cling onto the door of No.10 by the end of 2018 or will she finally face a leadership contest from a rival in the ranks ?

    2) Can Labour sustain its bid for Government or did they peak in June 2017 ?

    3) Will Labour sketch out a clear plan for Brexit or will they continue with "pragmatic ambiguity" to serve both pro-Remain and Leave constituencies ?

    4) Finally, will there be a fresh election in 2018 or will Parliament stumble on and see out its full term ?

    @Yossarian @shaz619 @Gabbar Singh @Robert @James @Eagle_Eye @s28 @Cpt. Rishwat
    Last edited by Markhor; 29th December 2017 at 13:30.

  2. #2
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    Negotiating Brexit is such a poisoned chalice that I think May will stumble on because no one else, either from within the Tory party or even across the benches, seriously wants the top job right now. So more of the same to come in 2018 imo.

    We are in a bizarre position where many Tories (like Michael Hesestine) would actually prefer a Labour government led by Corbyn as they think it would put an end to Brexit. On the other hand we have the anti-Corbyn MPs within the Labour party who actually wanted their leader to take a kicking in June because they saw it as an opportunity to get rid of him. And they still haven't accepted him.

    One prediction I am sure of though and that is that the pundits and commentators who make bold predictions for British politics in 2018 will again end up with egg on their face.

  3. #3
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    I don't believe we will see another election in 2018. 2017 elections made it clear to May/Tories that another mid term election will relegate them to the opposition ranks. May will continue to be PM till Brexit. Once that is delivered, she will move to the back benches, much like David Cameron before her and let someone be the face of the party for 2021. Someone who can debate and hold his own in the face of a resurgent Labour

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    4) Finally, will there be a fresh election in 2018 or will Parliament stumble on and see out its full term ?
    At the start of 2017 Theresa May was in full control, and looking to solidify her control even more. By the end of 2017, things have changed dramatically and Theresa May is staggering on from day-to-day simply trying to hang onto power.

    As to whether there will be an election in 2018, that is not up to Theresa May or any other Tory leader if she is replaced. That power lies in the hands of the DUP. If they keep backing the Tories then the Tories will cling onto power. However, as the fudge recently agreed becomes clearer, that either there will be a hard border in Ireland between the North and South, or the Irish sea will become the new border between Britain and the whole of Ireland/EU, the DUP could turn against the Tories, in which case an election will be inevitable.

    The DUP will decide whether it's Labour or Tories that are in power at the end of 2018.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post

    1) Will Theresa May cling onto the door of No.10 by the end of 2018 or will she finally face a leadership contest from a rival in the ranks ?

    2) Can Labour sustain its bid for Government or did they peak in June 2017 ?

    3) Will Labour sketch out a clear plan for Brexit or will they continue with "pragmatic ambiguity" to serve both pro-Remain and Leave constituencies ?

    4) Finally, will there be a fresh election in 2018 or will Parliament stumble on and see out its full term ?
    1. Yes, Mrs May will survive. Who would do better? The Tory Party is riven, there is no unity candidate.

    2. Their best chance is to wait until 2022, until Brexit has destroyed Tory economic credibility. Mr Corbyn will be 72, but perhaps a younger leftist will take over. Sadly they will have no money to reverse austerity.

    3. A lot of Twitter traffic about this. Labourites seem divided. There is a hardcore camp of Lexiteers. There is another camp losing faith in the Leader’s ambiguity - if he came out for Remain then Labour would have a ten point lead. A third camp is the cultists.

    4. The Tories will stumble on until 2022 and then lose.

  6. #6
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    Declassified files apparently showing that the MI5 tried to assassinate the then Irish Taoiseach Charlie Haughey in 1987!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-you-1.3339804

    Never a dull moment this side of Europe nowadays......


    See You Space Cowboy....

  7. #7
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    Due to the DUP's love of money despite their "Christian" image I reckon this Government will shamble onwards for another while yet assuming the Tories keep the cash flowing into the DUP MP's coffers. That being said some form of leadership challenge wouldnt surprise me.

    Honestly I dont think any party in the UK want an election until after the Brexit deal, whatever it is, is finalised. No matter who's in charge of the Government the deal will be a disaster and they ruling party would likely face a heavy loss due to that. Labour would rather wait and then campaign on a pro Remain angle and likely win, Tories want whatever stability they can cobble together for the time being.


    See You Space Cowboy....

  8. #8
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    I think a lot will “happen” in the sense that there will be plenty of the usual gossip, infighting, backstabbing and dodgy dealings - but I don’t think much will change or move on at the high level.

    On 1st January 2019: TM will still be the Prime Minister, Brexit negotiations will still be slowly chugging on (to the chagrin of many), Labour will stay on the attack and Corbyn will continue to enjoy being the opposition leader. But definitely no election and probably no other polar shifts.

    The Trump visit will be headline news whatever happens. My view? Everyone is expecting swathes of protests from the Millenials. I agree there will be plenty of those. But I also think he has lots of supporters in England on the far-right who stay quieter most of the time - they will raise their hands just as enthusiastically. Hopefully there is no civil unrest.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post


    4. The Tories will stumble on until 2022 and then lose.
    I agree.

    First of all, Brexit is done and people need to move on and look forward. Whether it's good or bad, there is no space for romantic remainers.....there's no reversing whats already been done. The best thing for the UK is the incumbent government continues till the whole exit transaction is complete, stability is very important in this crucial phase.

    2022 will mark and end of the Tory era, just like how 2010 finished off the blairites. By then people will be fed up of the Tories and the incumbency factor will be primed up. Plus Teresa may is an absoloutley hopeless campaigner, her efforts in the last election made an almost 70 year old Corbyn look like a rockstar! Jacob Rees Mogg would be my favourite Tory candidate but the smart move for him would be to wait for the 2027 elections.

    One thing we have seen after the multiple Labour leadership elections, internal party revolt and backstabbing is that Jeremy Corbyn is one stubborn old man. He wont allow any questions as to who the 2022 Labour candidate will be apart from himself. Plus it's him who is pulling the youth to the Labour party and the polling booths. Replace him with anyother mainstream Labour face and the party will lose that.

    Jeremy Corbyn Prime Minister........what a chain reaction that will set off!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
    I agree.

    First of all, Brexit is done and people need to move on and look forward. Whether it's good or bad, there is no space for romantic remainers.....there's no reversing whats already been done. The best thing for the UK is the incumbent government continues till the whole exit transaction is complete, stability is very important in this crucial phase.
    No one gave the Brexiteers, and possibility of a referendum, a chance a few years ago, and yet look what happened. But now the roles are reversed, and the Brexiteers expect the Remainers to just give up. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that as March 2019 gets closer and the Brexiteers too start realising the scale of the disaster Brexit will be, and start changing their views (some have already done so), that the decision could not be reversed, especially if the EU agreed to give a helping hand by changing the rules on the free movement of people (or giving the UK an opt-out) if the UK stayed in.

    It aint over yet.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 30th December 2017 at 08:13.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  11. #11
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    2018 begins like many other years with an NHS winter crisis.

    With increasing demand, less hospital beds, insufficient numbers of staff and a Government that has failed to provide the service adequate funding - who saw that coming ?!

  12. #12
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    Theresa May is the weakest PM in my living memory, and she could give Neville Chamberlain a run for his money too! She absolutely the worse PM to guide the UK towards Brexit. Stubborn, and clueless. Her General Election in 2017 will go down as one of the biggest blunders in British Politics, if not the greatest blunder.

    I would like to see Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM and Boris as deputy.

    Corbyn will continue his rise as austerity deepens, and if he is still around 2022, he will become PM.

    Nigel Farage is billy no mates and I doubt he will re-enter politics as UKIP leader.

    Liberal Democrats are going nowhere even if they find a young and charismatic leader.

    UK will move towards a No-Deal Brexit, and GBP will drop.

    Inflation will rise, as will interest rates resulting in even more debt and lower purchasing power.

    There will be social and civil unrest if there is a 2nd referendum causing more instability in British politics and economy.

    Then there is the Trump factor.


  13. #13
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    @R3verse Swing,

    Rees-Mogg is brute iron-fist Tory atavism dressed as a loveable PG Woodhouse character. The Tories would move hard right under him and much of their young Bright Blue support would switch to the Lib Dems.

    Goldman Sachs reckon that the Cabinet will split this year between the hard Leavers and the Dealers. That could force May back to the nation in another GE. But it won’t resolve anything as no party will have a majority. Maybe a Labour / Scot Nat / Lib Dem confidence-and-supply government would work. Labour in power could not supply the Lib Dems with finance as the Tories have the DUP, so there would have to be a red line about access to the CU and SM instead of money supply. But Corbyn would not accept that.

    What a mess, we are hopelessly divided over this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @R3verse Swing,

    Rees-Mogg is brute iron-fist Tory atavism dressed as a loveable PG Woodhouse character. The Tories would move hard right under him and much of their young Bright Blue support would switch to the Lib Dems.

    Goldman Sachs reckon that the Cabinet will split this year between the hard Leavers and the Dealers. That could force May back to the nation in another GE. But it won’t resolve anything as no party will have a majority. Maybe a Labour / Scot Nat / Lib Dem confidence-and-supply government would work. Labour in power could not supply the Lib Dems with finance as the Tories have the DUP, so there would have to be a red line about access to the CU and SM instead of money supply. But Corbyn would not accept that.

    What a mess, we are hopelessly divided over this.
    What I love about JRM is what you see is what you get. Plus he is not afraid of his beliefs, and doesn’t indulge in spin. Example, his views on abortion and his Christian faith. His stiff upper lip attitude coupled with the typical Tory haughty prose is just what the Tories need, and this country. We need leadership, a sense of direction, someone who can make decisions without fear.

    I agree the Tories will move right, but these days the question is what is defined as the middle? We’re either right, or left. I believe this change in landscape was the result of post 2008 austerity. Brexit certainly didn’t help, but was more catalyst.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    What I love about JRM is what you see is what you get. Plus he is not afraid of his beliefs, and doesn’t indulge in spin. Example, his views on abortion and his Christian faith. His stiff upper lip attitude coupled with the typical Tory haughty prose is just what the Tories need, and this country. We need leadership, a sense of direction, someone who can make decisions without fear.

    I agree the Tories will move right, but these days the question is what is defined as the middle? We’re either right, or left. I believe this change in landscape was the result of post 2008 austerity. Brexit certainly didn’t help, but was more catalyst.
    Interesting that Farron get pilloried for his beliefs on gays (despite voting for their greater liberty) but Moggy gets a free pass though he would take their liberty away.

    Abandoning the centre is just what the Tories need? Thatcher won big because she attracted much of the white working class who were previously for Labour. Blair appealed to many Tories, Cameron was a socially Liberal Tory.

    Neither right nor left leaves me politically homeless. My instinct has always been with the Ashdowns, Blairs and Clarkes.
    Last edited by Robert; 21st January 2018 at 07:58.

  16. #16
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    UKIP continue to be a joke this year.

    Maybe they should have a rotating leadership like....the European Union !

  17. #17
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    @R3verse Swing and @Markhor - I chatted to a PPC today about the return to two-party politics. He thought that this was not so much due to people becoming more left or more right as an anti-Corbyn and anti-Tory vote. People will look at one party or the other in horror and vote for the opposite big party to keep them out.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @R3verse Swing and @Markhor - I chatted to a PPC today about the return to two-party politics. He thought that this was not so much due to people becoming more left or more right as an anti-Corbyn and anti-Tory vote. People will look at one party or the other in horror and vote for the opposite big party to keep them out.
    The middle ground is no longer the enviable position.... it's either left or right. Not be confused with far left or far right.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    UKIP continue to be a joke this year.

    Maybe they should have a rotating leadership like....the European Union !
    Utter joke. The party is doomed. Cameron was indeed right, it is filled with racist fruit cakes and loons.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @R3verse Swing and @Markhor - I chatted to a PPC today about the return to two-party politics. He thought that this was not so much due to people becoming more left or more right as an anti-Corbyn and anti-Tory vote. People will look at one party or the other in horror and vote for the opposite big party to keep them out.
    I think a genuine left/right choice on the ballot paper is to be welcomed.

    When Blair and Cameron were the respective party leaders, there wasn't a cigarette paper between their policies. The "centre" need to note that its their actions that have created the polarisation of western politics.

    By presiding over deregulation, privatisation, house price bubbles that've destroyed a generation's dreams of home ownership and falling real wages then voters understandably go to the extremes as they don't trust mainstream politicians to work in their interests.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Utter joke. The party is doomed. Cameron was indeed right, it is filled with racist fruit cakes and loons.
    They want a second referendum on their this-weeks-Leader !

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Interesting that Farron get pilloried for his beliefs on gays (despite voting for their greater liberty) but Moggy gets a free pass though he would take their liberty away.
    Farron’s voting record on LGBT rights is a bit mixed actually; the comparison is flawed anyway, because JRM is an old-school Tory and very consistent in his right-wing Christian conservative beliefs, those are his principles and he sticks to those - whereas Farron was the President and then the Party Leader of the Liberal Democrats and he effectively said that homosexuality is a sin. That is no Liberal. So rather than the view itself, it is the hypocrisy that people object to.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Interesting that Farron get pilloried for his beliefs on gays (despite voting for their greater liberty) but Moggy gets a free pass though he would take their liberty away.

    Abandoning the centre is just what the Tories need? Thatcher won big because she attracted much of the white working class who were previously for Labour. Blair appealed to many Tories, Cameron was a socially Liberal Tory.

    Neither right nor left leaves me politically homeless. My instinct has always been with the Ashdowns, Blairs and Clarkes.
    Farron was pilloried for his beliefs because he didn’t give a straight answer and tried to wriggle himself out of the situation numerous times, though in his defence I would say that one’s personal beliefs are irrelevant. This point was demonstrated beautifully by JRM, in that, when he stated his belief, he topped it by saying that his belief was not enough to change law. This is where Farron was exposed as a amateur politician. Plus it is the season of straight talking politics. Saying this, I do wonder what the reaction would’ve been had Sadiq Khan stated the same?

    Tories have always been considered centre right. UKIP is a fringe party of Conservatism, hence Blue-Kip. One of the reasons why Cameron offered the EU referendum was to recuperate UKIP votes lost in 2010 which ended up in a coalition. It kind of worked in 2015, when Tories ended up with a slim majority

    I think British politics today is a matter of left or right. Remain vs Brexit, Rich vs Poor, Immigrant vs Indigenous.

    The 2 party state you have mentioned exemplifies the problem with politics as a whole. We call it a democracy but the reality is it’s one or the other, leaving tremendous scope for tactical voting, which is why polls are skewed and considered unreliable these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Utter joke. The party is doomed. Cameron was indeed right, it is filled with racist fruit cakes and loons.
    The UKIP party might be doomed, but in fact UKIP is a fringe Tory party. The difference between UKIP and Tories is simple, the former wants nothing to do with the EU, much like Maggie Thatcher. Hence the moniker – Blue-Kip.

    Yes party is doomed, but the rise of UKIP is one of the reasons why Cameron offered the EU vote in 2016. It was simply to subdue the rise of right-wing populous politics in the UK. As ever our politicians are disconnected with reality and failed to realise that the rise in fascism was much to do with austerity more than anything else.

    10 second hypothetical : if UK does not exit the EU, Farage is leader of UKIP, again, then do not be surprised by UKIP's Renaissance.
    Last edited by R3verse Swing; 22nd January 2018 at 18:17.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Farron’s voting record on LGBT rights is a bit mixed actually; the comparison is flawed anyway, because JRM is an old-school Tory and very consistent in his right-wing Christian conservative beliefs, those are his principles and he sticks to those - whereas Farron was the President and then the Party Leader of the Liberal Democrats and he effectively said that homosexuality is a sin. That is no Liberal. So rather than the view itself, it is the hypocrisy that people object to.
    Sure he’s Liberal. He voted to make gays more free *despite* his religious belief. He’s the beating heart of Liberalism. His views don’t matter, what counts are his actions. I am stunned that people don’t get this.

    So JRM is ok because he is fixed in his oppressive beliefs - and he would reverse the Equal Marriage Act if he could, while Farron is the Devil merely because he was weak and told a lie under pressure as we all have.

    What is wrong with people?

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    @R3verse Swing - I would not necessarily characterise UKIP as a subset of the conservative right as the Tories are an authoritarian (top of the y-axis) party and many Kippers are libertarian (bottom, like right wing Liberals).

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    Paul Mason and Robert Peston have explained the Carillion affair in more detail than I can but again, events play into Corbyn's hands.

    The sordid love affair that the British Establishment have had with PFI for the last 25 years is being exposed for all its inadequacies and flaws.

    We need to move away from the ideology of private = good, public = bad. There are some areas where there is no evidence the private sector is any more efficient than the public sector.

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    Well said Brian Reade:

    Carillion blacklisted trade unionists, ran up £600m pension deficit while protecting execs' bonuses, Tories gave party donor boss billion-pound contracts while firm in meltdown, now demanding a state bailout. Yet welfare claimants demonised as scroungers. What a bizarre country.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Paul Mason and Robert Peston have explained the Carillion affair in more detail than I can but again, events play into Corbyn's hands.

    We need to move away from the ideology of private = good, public = bad. There are some areas where there is no evidence the private sector is any more efficient than the public sector.
    I put in ten years for them. Good employer IMO - private health care, generous pension scheme. I think I got out at the right time though!

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    What I love about JRM is what you see is what you get. Plus he is not afraid of his beliefs, and doesn’t indulge in spin. Example, his views on abortion and his Christian faith. His stiff upper lip attitude coupled with the typical Tory haughty prose is just what the Tories need, and this country. We need leadership, a sense of direction, someone who can make decisions without fear.

    I agree the Tories will move right, but these days the question is what is defined as the middle? We’re either right, or left. I believe this change in landscape was the result of post 2008 austerity. Brexit certainly didn’t help, but was more catalyst.
    Have you lost your mind? I would take teresa May over JRM any day of the week. He is a danger to the very fabric of Britain. I dont want another stiff upper lip eton boy ruling the country. hey are out of touch and should be sent to the dustbin of history.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Have you lost your mind? I would take teresa May over JRM any day of the week. He is a danger to the very fabric of Britain. I dont want another stiff upper lip eton boy ruling the country. hey are out of touch and should be sent to the dustbin of history.
    TM is all over the place. She has made many U-turns, and one which cost her a majority in Parliament. Though the main reason is she is a remainer who doesn't believe in Brexit. She cannot control her cabinet either, she decided to speak about Uber at Davis of all things instead of pushing for post Brexit deals, and her neighbour at Downing Street, Hammond, shows her up more time than often.

    She is clinging on to power. A wannabe Thatcher facing the threat of no confidence from all angles.

    JRM actually believes in Brexit, is a straight talker, and has a clear sense of direction which is why I believe he will make a great PM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Have you lost your mind? I would take teresa May over JRM any day of the week. He is a danger to the very fabric of Britain. I dont want another stiff upper lip eton boy ruling the country. hey are out of touch and should be sent to the dustbin of history.
    I agree - never mind taking us back to the seventies like Labour - he would take us back to the thirties....

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    2018 wil likely be the worst year for Britain since the end of WWII and the set up of the welfare state. The NHS is on the verge of collapsing with no end in sight, council housing is falling apart, the benefits system is being used to bully and intimidate the poorest people and government is becoming more and more insular, with millions already spent on so called brexit, which will never be a true brexit anyway.

    The only hope is that there is some sort of Tory mutiny, May loses her powers and another election is called, which one would hope, leads to a Labour victory ,where policies for the benefit of our society can finally become a reality.

    One can dream...

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    More likely there will be no GE, but a Tory Leadership challenge and GRE takes over for the next four years. Hard Brexit results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barah_admi View Post
    2018 wil likely be the worst year for Britain since the end of WWII and the set up of the welfare state. The NHS is on the verge of collapsing with no end in sight, council housing is falling apart, the benefits system is being used to bully and intimidate the poorest people and government is becoming more and more insular, with millions already spent on so called brexit, which will never be a true brexit anyway.

    The only hope is that there is some sort of Tory mutiny, May loses her powers and another election is called, which one would hope, leads to a Labour victory ,where policies for the benefit of our society can finally become a reality.

    One can dream...
    I have been hearing about the collapse of the NHS since I gained awareness. It's not going to happen.

    People need to realise, if politicians oppose or dare to change the Welfare state, The Pensions, or the NHS - they will lose. This is precisely what happened with TM in GE 2017. She attacked the elderly, and paid a hefty price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I agree - never mind taking us back to the seventies like Labour - he would take us back to the thirties....
    I thought that would be Corbyn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I have been hearing about the collapse of the NHS since I gained awareness. It's not going to happen.

    People need to realise, if politicians oppose or dare to change the Welfare state, The Pensions, or the NHS - they will lose. This is precisely what happened with TM in GE 2017. She attacked the elderly, and paid a hefty price.
    Propose? Changes have already occurred, private corporations are already handling over 60% of the NHS, hospitals were built by them and the government is in huge debt. They will come to collect. You would be incredibly naive to think the NHS, benefits etc are sacrosanct. They are not.

    We have already seen disability benefits taken away from thousands who needs them, horror stories of people suffering from epilepsy being sent in to work with computers etc etc. The collapse is happening all around us. Public service spending, as a percentage of GDP down to 38%, soon to be 36%. This can only get worse unless the electorate does something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    More likely there will be no GE, but a Tory Leadership challenge and GRE takes over for the next four years. Hard Brexit results.
    Surely would be Boris, Gove, or Mogg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I have been hearing about the collapse of the NHS since I gained awareness. It's not going to happen.

    People need to realise, if politicians oppose or dare to change the Welfare state, The Pensions, or the NHS - they will lose. This is precisely what happened with TM in GE 2017. She attacked the elderly, and paid a hefty price.
    The Tory hard right is ideologically opposed to the NHS. Thatcher wanted to end it but the Treasury dissuaded her as it would have been inflationary. Rees-Mogg will slowly chop it up and sell it to the Yanks piecemeal. Then it will be gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barah_admi View Post
    2018 wil likely be the worst year for Britain since the end of WWII and the set up of the welfare state. The NHS is on the verge of collapsing with no end in sight, council housing is falling apart, the benefits system is being used to bully and intimidate the poorest people and government is becoming more and more insular, with millions already spent on so called brexit, which will never be a true brexit anyway.

    The only hope is that there is some sort of Tory mutiny, May loses her powers and another election is called, which one would hope, leads to a Labour victory ,where policies for the benefit of our society can finally become a reality.

    One can dream...
    Well said. Speaking of council housing, there's a lot of nonsense being spoken about "hard left takeovers" of Labour Councils lately.

    Haringey Council (of Baby P infamy) has been singled out by mainstream media and bitter Labour "centrists" who have no idea about the ground reality. Aditya Chakrabortty has produced some terrific writing for the Guardian on what's ACTUALLY happened there.

    For those who don't know - council leader Claire Kober has resigned after months of Labour infighting. She planned to take a large portion of municipal assets such as libraries, school building and council homes, and place them into a private fund. Her partner in what's named the Haringey Development Vehicle (HDV) is the multinational property developer Lendlease.

    This scheme will throw people out of their homes. Whilst Kober promises every family will get their home back once rebuilt - there is NO explicit social housing target whilst the policy passed by Kober's cabinet is riddled with loopholes. Needless to say, the scheme is unpopular locally. Chakrabortty writes:

    By bringing in the HDV, Kober triggered nothing less than civil war in the local Labour movement. Momentum certainly latched onto the issue, as a good campaign group would. But others who opposed it were the area’s two MPs, including notable revolutionary vanguardist David Lammy, the Maoist Lib Dems, the big unions and the two constituency Labour parties. The council’s own scrutiny committee published two thorough reports calling for an immediate halt – twice. The leadership not only ignored all such democratic checks and balances; it organised secret meetings with Lendlease that backbench councillors didn’t even know about.
    Thus, Labour's NEC ordered the Labour-run Haringey Council to halt the scheme. Yet Kober has the nerve in her resignation statement today to complain she was the victim of sexism and bullying by Momentum through "undemocratic behaviour" ! You are not a "moderate" for being complicit in social cleansing through these so-called regeneration schemes; it is not "moderate" to sell off public assets. Kober and her allies DESERVE deselection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Well said. Speaking of council housing, there's a lot of nonsense being spoken about "hard left takeovers" of Labour Councils lately.

    Haringey Council (of Baby P infamy) has been singled out by mainstream media and bitter Labour "centrists" who have no idea about the ground reality. Aditya Chakrabortty has produced some terrific writing for the Guardian on what's ACTUALLY happened there.

    For those who don't know - council leader Claire Kober has resigned after months of Labour infighting. She planned to take a large portion of municipal assets such as libraries, school building and council homes, and place them into a private fund. Her partner in what's named the Haringey Development Vehicle (HDV) is the multinational property developer Lendlease.

    This scheme will throw people out of their homes. Whilst Kober promises every family will get their home back once rebuilt - there is NO explicit social housing target whilst the policy passed by Kober's cabinet is riddled with loopholes. Needless to say, the scheme is unpopular locally. Chakrabortty writes:



    Thus, Labour's NEC ordered the Labour-run Haringey Council to halt the scheme. Yet Kober has the nerve in her resignation statement today to complain she was the victim of sexism and bullying by Momentum through "undemocratic behaviour" ! You are not a "moderate" for being complicit in social cleansing through these so-called regeneration schemes; it is not "moderate" to sell off public assets. Kober and her allies DESERVE deselection.
    Exactly! I was confused about the Haringey issue myself before reading what he wrote in the Guardian.

    I won't give away details about where I live, but our local Labour members are also looking to have an open ballot for mayoral elections, for so long dominated by one centrist/Blairite member. The motion has been passed in my ward but we're waiting for it to be passed across wards.

    Glad to know there are like minded members on here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I agree - never mind taking us back to the seventies like Labour - he would take us back to the thirties....
    30's? no way more like 1860. This man is a throwback to the victorian era. I'm currently reading a book on the decline of the british empire and he reminds me of one of those historical figures. We cannot allow him in power. It would destroy the fabric of british society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Well said. Speaking of council housing, there's a lot of nonsense being spoken about "hard left takeovers" of Labour Councils lately.

    Haringey Council (of Baby P infamy) has been singled out by mainstream media and bitter Labour "centrists" who have no idea about the ground reality. Aditya Chakrabortty has produced some terrific writing for the Guardian on what's ACTUALLY happened there.

    For those who don't know - council leader Claire Kober has resigned after months of Labour infighting. She planned to take a large portion of municipal assets such as libraries, school building and council homes, and place them into a private fund. Her partner in what's named the Haringey Development Vehicle (HDV) is the multinational property developer Lendlease.

    This scheme will throw people out of their homes. Whilst Kober promises every family will get their home back once rebuilt - there is NO explicit social housing target whilst the policy passed by Kober's cabinet is riddled with loopholes. Needless to say, the scheme is unpopular locally. Chakrabortty writes:



    Thus, Labour's NEC ordered the Labour-run Haringey Council to halt the scheme. Yet Kober has the nerve in her resignation statement today to complain she was the victim of sexism and bullying by Momentum through "undemocratic behaviour" ! You are not a "moderate" for being complicit in social cleansing through these so-called regeneration schemes; it is not "moderate" to sell off public assets. Kober and her allies DESERVE deselection.
    Yes its all over social media..But have you heard that there will be a complete wipeout of the tories in london? If that happens the labour "centrists" will also suffer and I hope they do. They are a disgrace.

    The morons and fools have left us with an almighty mess in brexit. I mean just listen to james o brian on LBC and just hear some of the moronic individuals who support this stupidity..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ohLWx2cx4

    just listen to this stupidity

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    You all should stop blaming the Tories, Labour, or any other political party.

    You should be pointing the finger at Capitalism. Capitalism has failed, not our government (regardless of which political party). The failure of Capitalism resulted in austerity which ended up in Brexit.

    1930s? The Great Depression lead to Austerity in the West, which lead to the rise of Nazism, not Hitler.

    Put money in the pockets of every soul in the UK, and they will not give a damn about who is in power. This is evident by the fact that the two most controversial PMs of UK in living memory were in power for the longest, governing the UK during the greatest economic booms the UK has ever seen - Thatcher and Blair.

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    The failure was not capitalism’s but of governments to tame and harness it to serve the people.

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    Two council elections last night. A successful defence for Labour in Falmouth and a big gain for the Lib Dems in Brexit Sunderland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The failure was not capitalism’s but of governments to tame and harness it to serve the people.
    Not sure how the Government can tame capitalism? Putting restrictions on profitability and opportunity is akin to communism no?

    Labour was criticised for spending too much of government's money during the 00 boom years too.

    The trouble with capitalism is that it creates debt, and boom cycles are born through debt expansion. No government in the world can control this phenomena.

    I would say this though, QE should have been spent on public infrastructure opposed to bailing out the banks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    You all should stop blaming the Tories, Labour, or any other political party.

    You should be pointing the finger at Capitalism. Capitalism has failed, not our government (regardless of which political party). The failure of Capitalism resulted in austerity which ended up in Brexit.

    1930s? The Great Depression lead to Austerity in the West, which lead to the rise of Nazism, not Hitler.

    Put money in the pockets of every soul in the UK, and they will not give a damn about who is in power. This is evident by the fact that the two most controversial PMs of UK in living memory were in power for the longest, governing the UK during the greatest economic booms the UK has ever seen - Thatcher and Blair.
    Where would your Conservative advocate Rees-Mogg stand on curbing capitalism? I don't really follow politics much these days so don't know much about him.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Not sure how the Government can tame capitalism? Putting restrictions on profitability and opportunity is akin to communism no?

    Labour was criticised for spending too much of government's money during the 00 boom years too.

    The trouble with capitalism is that it creates debt, and boom cycles are born through debt expansion. No government in the world can control this phenomena.

    I would say this though, QE should have been spent on public infrastructure opposed to bailing out the banks.
    Well, in that case the banks would have collapsed and we’d have another 1929.

    You regulate gas and oil to prevent disastrous spills. You have government set the interest rates, not the Bank of England. You make lending to the sub-Prime market illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, in that case the banks would have collapsed and we’d have another 1929.

    You regulate gas and oil to prevent disastrous spills. You have government set the interest rates, not the Bank of England. You make lending to the sub-Prime market illegal.
    That's the point though isn't it? In capitalism there are failures and successes, but the problem was that Governments intervened in 2008. Had the economy collapsed properly circa 2008/2009, then we would be on better footing right now. Right now the British economy has put all it's eggs in one basket, Mortgages, propping up an economy based on debt. The solution? Pile on more dent to get out of debt.

    The government knows that setting higher interest rates is the solution but cannot since most of the public are drowning in debt.

    In the end the system doesn't collapse, but evaporates!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Where would your Conservative advocate Rees-Mogg stand on curbing capitalism? I don't really follow politics much these days so don't know much about him.
    He would let Capitalism run its course. No institution is too big too fail. No government bail outs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    That's the point though isn't it? In capitalism there are failures and successes, but the problem was that Governments intervened in 2008. Had the economy collapsed properly circa 2008/2009, then we would be on better footing right now.

    We would have ten million unemployed, social unrest, fascists marching, ethnic minorities persecuted, public services in a state of collapse.

    It took WW2 for the West to recover from 1929.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, in that case the banks would have collapsed and we’d have another 1929.

    You regulate gas and oil to prevent disastrous spills. You have government set the interest rates, not the Bank of England. You make lending to the sub-Prime market illegal.
    Why should banks be exempt from the rules of capitalism and not other businesses such as Carillion? Individuals also go bust under capitalism. Banks have to fail otherwise they get a risk free ride when gambling people's money on the stock market without any consequences.

    Making subprime lending illegal is one way, but the irony is without debt, capitalism just does not function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    We would have ten million unemployed, social unrest, fascists marching, ethnic minorities persecuted, public services in a state of collapse.

    It took WW2 for the West to recover from 1929.
    Agreed, but this highlights just how flawed capitalism is.

    Economies can recover by simply printing more money, but society does not recover from economic crashes.

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    The hard left in Bristol have just achieved the impossible - they've united the political class in sympathy and admiration for JRM.

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    BBC : The Sunday Times reports on an alleged plot by Brexiteers to build a "dream team" at No 10. It says Tory MPs have warned the prime minister will face a coup if she insists on moving forward with plans to keep the UK in the customs union. The paper reveals Eurosceptics have urged the foreign secretary to consider a pact which would see Michael Gove as deputy prime minister and Jacob Rees-Mogg appointed the chancellor. It also claims despite Boris Johnson offering support to Theresa May, he told plotters he was "ready" for a future leadership contest.

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    Brexiteers plot to install ‘dream team’ at No 10: Boris Johnson, Michael Gove — and Jacob Rees-Mogg as chancellor

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...llor-g6szw0p69

    Theresa May will face a coup that would install a “dream team” of “three Brexiteers” if she persists with plans to keep Britain in a *customs union with the European Union, Tory MPs warned last night.

    Eurosceptics contacted Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, on Friday and urged him to agree a pact that would see Michael Gove, the environment secretary, become his deputy prime minister and Jacob Rees-Mogg — the shop steward of the backbench Brexiteers — appointed chancellor if the prime minister is forced out.

    While encouraging MPs to “rally round” May, Johnson also told one of the plotters that he would be “ready” for a future contest. He vowed that the “cavalry is coming” to block the customs union plan when May’s Brexit “war cabinet” meets to discuss Britain’s future relations with Brussels this week.

    Another cabinet Brexiteer has told MPs that Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, will resign if a customs union is agreed.

    In a fresh challenge to May:
    ● Eurosceptics threatened to submit a “tsunami” of letters demanding a vote of no confidence unless May backed down on the customs union, warning they could “take back control” of the government whenever they wanted
    ● Downing Street placed about 10 ministers on “suicide watch” amid fears of a walkout that could cause the government to collapse, with defence minister Tobias Ellwood at the top of the list
    ● Rees-Mogg, in a heated showdown last week with Julian Smith, the chief whip, demanded that May sack her civil service Brexit negotiator Oliver Robbins
    ● Smith told MPs that Philip *Hammond was to blame for Brexit tensions, saying the chancellor has a political “tin ear”
    ● MPs called for a Brexit minister to be permanently stationed in Brussels to keep an eye on officials, with former cabinet minister Iain Duncan Smith touted for the role.

    The Brexit “war cabinet” will meet for two hours on both Wednesday and Thursday to agree Britain’s negotiating stance.

    Under a plan drawn up by *Robbins, the UK could keep trading goods tariff-free with the EU and negotiate separate trade deals on services with non-EU countries.

    Brexiteers, however, want to be able to do free trade deals on goods with the rest of the world as well. Rees-Mogg said: “We do not wish to be in ‘a’ customs union, ‘the’ customs union or ‘an’ customs union.” He accused Treasury officials of “fiddl*ing the figures” on Brexit.

    Johnson and Gove will fight the plans for a customs union and Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, has told MPs that Brexiteer ministers will kill off the plan.

    May’s team are considering an “away day” during the recess a week later to finalise the government’s position, daring min*is*ters to sign up or “do a Heseltine” and resign on the spot, as Mich*ael *Heseltine did in 1986 when leav*ing Margaret Thatcher’s cabinet.

    A leading Eurosceptic said: “The PM needs to understand that we can take back control. If she persists with this customs union plan, we can get rid of her and we have the numbers to ensure that one of us takes over.”

    Under the “Three Brexiteers” plan, senior jobs would be found for Priti Patel, the former cabinet minister, and Dominic Raab, the housing minister overlooked for promotion by May in her January reshuffle.

    The plotters fear that a failure to pre-agree a plan would lead to a “free for all” in which up to seven Brexiteers would fight it out to take on home secretary Amber Rudd, defence secretary Gavin Williamson and health secretary Jeremy Hunt, the other frontrunners.

    Penny Mordaunt, the new international development secretary and Brexiteer, has told colleagues that she has had “leadership training”.

    Johnson’s allies believe he would have to win support from non-Eurosceptics to secure the leadership and have encouraged him to make overtures to Rudd, with a view to making her Britain’s first female chancellor.

    No 10 is on tenterhooks about a ministerial resignation and is watching Johnson and others with leadership ambitions such as Ellwood, Phillip Lee, Sam Gyimah, Raab and Rory Stewart * — as well as Johnson’s brother Jo and his former leadership campaign chief Ben Wallace — all of whom have denied that they intend to resign.

    Ellwood said he was “donning my suit of armour” to fight “the mother of all battles with the Treasury” for higher defence spending.

    Fox did not respond to requests for comment.

    A former minister said: “After the election, the matchbox was clearly on sale in the shop. Now someone has bought the matchbox and we are all waiting to see who will strike the match.”

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    Anyone see JRM and Steve Baker double-team to sneakily impugne the honour of the Civil Service in the Commons the other day? Even DD was frowning in disquiet.

    Classic Trumpesque bait-and-switch tactics. Corrosive to faith in our institutions. We live in perilous days, ripe for a far right (or far left) takeover.

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    Of the many aspects that'll form this Conservative Government's legacy - the destruction of the finances of local authorities is one of the most scandalous.

    Tory-run Northamptonshire County Council issue a section 114 notice banning new spending. It's the first such notice issued in more than 20 years.

    Councils don't just collect the rubbish every week - they're essential for elderly social care, children's centres, housing provision etc. Yet how are they meant to maintain adequate services amidst growing demand when their budgets have been cut by 26% since 2010 ?!

    As a result, it appears Council Tax will rise in 95% of English authorities, itself an iniquitous tax given there's a cap on Council Tax for higher value properties which have not been revalued since 1991 ! So much for Tory economic competence.

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    4.99% Council Tax rise in Cornwall, already the poorest part of the U.K.

    Cornwall returned six Tory MPs out of six last June.

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    Surrey has the biggest deficit, no doubt taxes are going up!

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    It will go up minimum 3% everywhere. Already there are rumours of hikes >10%. Libraries across the UK will soon be a very rare commodity. More fire services will have to consolidate as well.

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    County councils cannot raise taxes by 5% or over without a local referendum.

    Though I have been saying for a while that we should all pay more tax.

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    Corbyns a wasteman

    That Owen smith guy would have forced another election by now


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    County councils cannot raise taxes by 5% or over without a local referendum.

    Though I have been saying for a while that we should all pay more tax.
    We should go back to Income Tax for more revenue. However 20% plus NI contributions is a sufficient basic rate. It’s the highest rate that should be increased again IMO, particularly after Brexit when there will be less opportunity for the rich to instantly jettison off their money elsewhere into the EU. I would go back to a highest rate of 50p as a minimum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    We should go back to Income Tax for more revenue. However 20% plus NI contributions is a sufficient basic rate. It’s the highest rate that should be increased again IMO, particularly after Brexit when there will be less opportunity for the rich to instantly jettison off their money elsewhere into the EU. I would go back to a highest rate of 50p as a minimum.
    50p? That's a bargain! Spare a thought for people who worked in the 50s and 60s when income tax was around 90%! Then down to 75% in the 70s!

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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    50p? That's a bargain! Spare a thought for people who worked in the 50s and 60s when income tax was around 90%! Then down to 75% in the 70s!
    “Back when income tax was all we had”, to quote George Harrison.

    Three polls put the Tories back in the lead. Labour should be ten points clear of this omnishambles Government. Corbyn’s unicorn policy of a “Jobs First Brexit” is starting to lose him support.

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    Polling right now suggest a ‘right bloc’ of Con / DUP with 317 votes, verses a ‘Left bloc’ of Labour, Scot Nats, Plaid and Greens on 310.

    That would mean the Lib Dem Leader would be Kingmaker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Polling right now suggest a ‘right bloc’ of Con / DUP with 317 votes, verses a ‘Left bloc’ of Labour, Scot Nats, Plaid and Greens on 310.

    That would mean the Lib Dem Leader would be Kingmaker.
    As LDs were Kingmakers in 2010!

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    In a GE now I reckon the nation would go either Tory majority or Labour majority.

    Aside from a short-lived Conservative government at the back end of an exhausted Cameron’s career, we have had a Coalition / Hung Parliament status for 8 years now - in this time, not a lot has been achieved beyond the basic survival principles.

    The better policies, such as Equal Marriage and increasing the tax-free allowance, have been drowned out by the spread of austerity, poverty, food banks, appalling and overpriced sardine tin public transport, knife crime, food / petrol prices rocketing, and unaffordable further education.

    It is time for a party to take 350 seats and make some swift changes to rejuvenate the country a little.

  70. #70
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    The best policy is the one where I pay little tax and get to live very compatibly #WarTory #Vote4May #StrongAndStable


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  71. #71
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    If you manage to reach a stage where you make 30K+ which is a pretty compatible position, you will still get taxed a shocking 40% ! and when you have mouths to feed you're going to struggle. Screw Jeremy Corbyn!



    Whoever brings that 40% down will have my vote, I need to think about the near future. I need the money, am hungry.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  72. #72
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    The main thing is to focus on yourself, equip yourself with the necessary skills to advance your career and invest in your family's. Don't be a pretend revolutionary or get caught up to do the right thing (like those extremely bored people who are already in a compatible position) . Focus on making as much money possible, if you have that then if the NHS does die and the public services get hit who cares you could always pull out some dosh to protect yourself and your family. If everyone else gets done over, not your problem.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  73. #73
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    We need lower tax rates! And we need to protect the big corporations which create so many jobs for us! Also, I don't mind the tuition fees being 30K especially when you decide to do something rubbish like art or pharmacy! but make exceptions for those who want to enrol on engineering degrees as they are the future.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  74. #74
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    Also, SCRAP BENEFITS! too many damn scroungers! 99% of them are Lazy and make no effort to find a job and are happy to claim JSA weekly while they sell crack on the side.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  75. #75
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    @shaz619 appears to have joined Moggmentum.....

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    If you manage to reach a stage where you make 30K+ which is a pretty compatible position, you will still get taxed a shocking 40% ! and when you have mouths to feed you're going to struggle. Screw Jeremy Corbyn!



    Whoever brings that 40% down will have my vote, I need to think about the near future. I need the money, am hungry.
    What? People get taxed 40% rate on a 30k income? Vow! Is that number inclusive of all taxes, i.e. income tax, NHS etc etc?

    Of course there is a high sales tax (maybe called something else in the UK) rate on top of this for all purchases, I am sure. How much is that?

    Also, how long do unemployment benefits last?
    Last edited by USofA; 14th February 2018 at 07:33.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by USofA View Post
    What? People get taxed 40% rate on a 30k income? Vow! Is that number inclusive of all taxes, i.e. income tax, NHS etc etc?

    Of course there is a high sales tax (maybe called something else in the UK) rate on top of this for all purchases, I am sure. How much is that?

    Also, how long do unemployment benefits last?
    The income tax includes everything apart from national insurance and repayment of uni tuition fees, there could be other extras to but those are the ones I know.

    I don't think there is a limit on unemployment benefits however you only get around 50 pounds per week and that's not money you can live on plus you're paid those benefits 6 weeks at a time

  78. #78
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    You knew I'd join you eventually good ol Rob



    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  79. #79
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    Right now am making a pathetic salary which doesn't help me or my fam but its a good oppourtunity to grow and gain experience, there is potential for growth though and if am lucky to make it after all me struggles and earn around 30K, you will still pay a big chunk to the tax man which is just sad. Plus I have many responsibilities, have to take care of my fam and then think about marriage and stuff to in the future if I get the chance so there are loads of expenses. Right now am paying rent for two places and just about getting by, some relatives were like why don't you go UAE the prospects are good there and they value British excellence; I gave that guy a slap, no matter how bad things get I will never abandon queen and country God Save our glorious Queen, Long live our Tyranny and Long Live the Memories of THE RAJ, the sun will never set on the EMPIRE.

  80. #80
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    To be fair, I do support Corbyn's idea of QE to society rather than the banks, at least people would benefit with long term jobs through infrastructure projects. Sure beats the wasteful HS2 debacle!

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