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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    LDs have one shot, one message, 2nd referendum. This is their only play. Fact is 17.5 Million will not vote for LDs, and even if the the entire remain side vote for LDs, it's still not enough when you consider those eligible to vote in a GE.
    Actually there is a whole manifesto.

    It’s a good time for them because Brexit has fractured the two large parties and even a 25 seat bloc in the Commons could be pivotal.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Actually there is a whole manifesto.

    It’s a good time for them because Brexit has fractured the two large parties and even a 25 seat bloc in the Commons could be pivotal.
    All the parties have a whole manifesto, but LDs are promoting themselves on the back of stopping Brexit.

    Vince Cable's quote "We are very clear about the way forward. We want to stop Brexit and we want a People's Vote so people can decide which way we go on the matter." This after the election results.

    Brexit has fractured the 2 main parties, but Brexit is the only selling point of the LDs.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    All the parties have a whole manifesto, but LDs are promoting themselves on the back of stopping Brexit.

    Vince Cable's quote "We are very clear about the way forward. We want to stop Brexit and we want a People's Vote so people can decide which way we go on the matter." This after the election results.

    Brexit has fractured the 2 main parties, but Brexit is the only selling point of the LDs.
    I disagree with that, there are radical LD education and environmental policies.

    Brexit is drowning everything out for all parties. Nothing much else is getting down in Parliament.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I disagree with that, there are radical LD education and environmental policies.

    Brexit is drowning everything out for all parties. Nothing much else is getting down in Parliament.
    I do not disagree with you, in that, there are other policies, but when the Vince Cable's opening line upon the results is "We want to stop Brexit", he clearly feels that people voted for LD to reverse Brexit, and this right now is the only appeal of the LDs. Essentially he is appealing to Remainers.

  5. #485
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    The Greens may be a better long-term prospect as the third party.

    Their raison d’être is already encroaching upon Brexit as one of the “in” topics, and once a solution to the EU impasse has been implemented then climate change could well become THE hot topic.

    I do tend to agree with @Technics 1210 that the Lib Dems are now just known as the hardcore anti-Brexit party - whereas the Greens may make it clear that they are looking for a 2nd Referendum and that they are extremely pro-European, but they also say in their manifesto that they will make the best of whatever outcome may result, and Brexit only gets a couple of paragraphs in a 22-page document.

    The Greens just seem to be offering more.
    Last edited by James; 5th May 2019 at 19:01.

  6. #486
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    @James the LDs have been calling for a Referendum on the deal since the word go. The people got us into this hole so only the people can get us out.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I do not disagree with you, in that, there are other policies, but when the Vince Cable's opening line upon the results is "We want to stop Brexit", he clearly feels that people voted for LD to reverse Brexit, and this right now is the only appeal of the LDs. Essentially he is appealing to Remainers.
    If course a lot of them voted LD to stop Brexit among other things, but LD local government is excellent - very bright and educated people who genuinely want to make their area better. Listen to LDs talk, their brains and integrity shine out.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Heading for 25 seats at current polling. Look what the DUP managed with just ten MPs, and another hung Parliament is likely.

    I would not call 2600 Councillors and ninety Lords an utter irrelevance. That’s a lot of local government.
    once this round of crazy is over, we are going to go back to the real messaging. It wont take long for people to say "oh yeah the LD's didnt they lie about tution fee's? didnt they cause this austerity?" All they have going for them now is the anti Brexit vote. Once that is dealt with they have nothing to offer.

    Just like in 2005 when many voted for them because of their opposition to the Iraq war.
    There wont be a general election for another year at least. The tories and labour will not let anotehr GE happen until Brexit is sorted as they will both lose out. Once a deal is done in whatever form and Brexit becomes a reality, then we'll see real campaigning begin..the LD's wont be able to hack it..INMHO.

  9. #489
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    The Tories are headed for a bloodbath.




  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    The Tories are headed for a bloodbath.



    This proves that gains in LD were more of a protest vote, because if people really wanted to stop Brexit, then LD would be topping this table!

  11. #491
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    Bear in mind this is a Yougov poll.

    Yougov is a dishonest corrupt organisation run by Tories.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    This proves that gains in LD were more of a protest vote, because if people really wanted to stop Brexit, then LD would be topping this table!
    The Remain vote is split between LD, CHUKTIG and Greens. A lot of Labour voters are for Remain too but tribal loyalty keeps them on board.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    once this round of crazy is over, we are going to go back to the real messaging. It wont take long for people to say "oh yeah the LD's didnt they lie about tution fee's? didnt they cause this austerity?" All they have going for them now is the anti Brexit vote. Once that is dealt with they have nothing to offer.

    Just like in 2005 when many voted for them because of their opposition to the Iraq war.
    There wont be a general election for another year at least. The tories and labour will not let anotehr GE happen until Brexit is sorted as they will both lose out. Once a deal is done in whatever form and Brexit becomes a reality, then we'll see real campaigning begin..the LD's wont be able to hack it..INMHO.
    Nothing to offer? The LD economic plan is better for the poorest three deciles than Labour’s is.

    Hmm, if Remain is the one selling point why did the LDs make massive gains in the South West, which is Brexitland?

    Liberalism is robust. It was burned down to the roots in 2015 but the roots survived and Liberalism is well on the way to recovery.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    The Greens may be a better long-term prospect as the third party.

    The Greens just seem to be offering more.
    You might as well vote Labour, as Corbynistas want the same things. Greens want to leave NATO, don’t see Russia as a threat, and get rid of our nukes. They are a nicely packaged part of the loony left as far as I am concerned.

  15. #495
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    Incredibly, the Tories are in fourth place in the Euro elections, behind Labour, Brexit and the LDs.

  16. #496
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    The Brexit Party are currently projected to take around 31 of the 73 European seats on offer.

    A quite incredible happening this, from absolutely nowhere.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    The Brexit Party are currently projected to take around 31 of the 73 European seats on offer.

    A quite incredible happening this, from absolutely nowhere.
    These are strange days. We could see the Tory party reduced to a rump at the next GE. Brexit will tear lumps out of Labour too, but to a lesser extent. If there was a GE tomorrow FPTP would put Brexit on about fifty seats.

  18. #498
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    The latest YouGov poll puts the Tories in fifth places in the Euros! What is going on?

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The latest YouGov poll puts the Tories in fifth places in the Euros! What is going on?
    Theresa May is what is going on.

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Theresa May is what is going on.
    Tories could get a more Brexity and charismatic leader to pull back votes from the Faragists. But then they will bleed Remainer voters to LD and ChUKTIG.

    Cameron’s wager has crippled the Tory party.

  21. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    The Brexit Party are currently projected to take around 31 of the 73 European seats on offer.

    A quite incredible happening this, from absolutely nowhere.
    the whole thing is a joke. Im sorry but are people stupid? Can they nots ee the irony? that an anti EU party is going to sit in the EU and be paid wages by the EU for what? for what purpose? but alas our people are politically illiterate and just dont understand politics anymore...very depressing..I have now begun to detox from the whole brexit debate..im done with it..if you guys value your Health i would urge you to do the same..

    The tories have helped lay the foundations for a generation of unnecessary turmoil in this country..in one way I have a slight feeling of relief that they arent having a go at Muslims anymore (not yet) but on the other hand it feels worse too..

  22. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    the whole thing is a joke. Im sorry but are people stupid? Can they nots ee the irony? that an anti EU party is going to sit in the EU and be paid wages by the EU for what? for what purpose? but alas our people are politically illiterate and just dont understand politics anymore...very depressing..I have now begun to detox from the whole brexit debate..im done with it..if you guys value your Health i would urge you to do the same..

    The tories have helped lay the foundations for a generation of unnecessary turmoil in this country..in one way I have a slight feeling of relief that they arent having a go at Muslims anymore (not yet) but on the other hand it feels worse too..
    I fear for when the economy really tanks. Not just lightweight austerity this time but real hardship. A lot of dispossessed people will look for someone to blame.

  23. #503
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    The end result of this, I feel, will be that we never “Brex-it” and Labour will come back into government. Could all happen before Christmas.

  24. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I fear for when the economy really tanks. Not just lightweight austerity this time but real hardship. A lot of dispossessed people will look for someone to blame.
    yes thats the biggest fear I have. We already have the far right on the march and the rise of anti semitism and islamaphobia, coupled with old fashioned racism. Who will farage blame when the economy tanks? I mean he could blame the Muslims but there arent many of us so it needs to have more impact, perhaps the socialists? or maybe women? or maybe everyone who didnt believe in his vision?

  25. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    The end result of this, I feel, will be that we never “Brex-it” and Labour will come back into government. Could all happen before Christmas.
    I have a theory. I believe there wont be a Brexit and the other nations who have a big stake in the world economy, who recognise the importance of the UK to the current international system , will "encourage" a way to ensure that brexit doesnt happen or is watered down and labour are back in power. the tories have simply lost all of the perceived image of experience and competence.

    i also have another fear other than the one I mentioned in the previous post. Lets say Labour win. What comes after labour? I mean just look at the states? everyone was euphoric when Obama won twice but look what came after him? we may see the same here..

  26. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I fear for when the economy really tanks. Not just lightweight austerity this time but real hardship. A lot of dispossessed people will look for someone to blame.
    I ultimately blame Capitalism and Central Banks. The rich keep getting richer, the poor, poorer.

    This has been the 1 solid trend since December 23, 1913.

  27. #507
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    Lib Dems pass Labour and are now in second place in the Euro polls according to YouGov.

    Before someone says YouGov is a Tory owned poll, note that it puts the Tories in single figures.

    CHuKTIG are disintegrating already, on 2%. I get that Umunna and some of the others were hounded out by Momentum, but they might has well have joined the Lib Dems. Now that bridge is burned.

  28. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Lib Dems pass Labour and are now in second place in the Euro polls according to YouGov.

    Before someone says YouGov is a Tory owned poll, note that it puts the Tories in single figures.

    CHuKTIG are disintegrating already, on 2%. I get that Umunna and some of the others were hounded out by Momentum, but they might has well have joined the Lib Dems. Now that bridge is burned.
    read the guardian write up of their recent "rally"..it was beyond pathetic. Chukka is realising what a fool he is and how he has flushed his career down the loo..It laughable and I for one am glad its happened to this sorry bunch. Good riddance.

    I dont understand why labour arent campaigning? I'm a Corbyn supporter but I dont agree with this weird policy they are adopting for these elections. Maybe they think theyll mean diddly squat because we are leaving anyway..??

  29. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    read the guardian write up of their recent "rally"..it was beyond pathetic. Chukka is realising what a fool he is and how he has flushed his career down the loo..It laughable and I for one am glad its happened to this sorry bunch. Good riddance.

    I dont understand why labour arent campaigning? I'm a Corbyn supporter but I dont agree with this weird policy they are adopting for these elections. Maybe they think theyll mean diddly squat because we are leaving anyway..??
    Plenty of Labour activity on social media. They are trying to grab their Remain supporters back from LD and Green. But constructive ambiguity on Brexit has come home to roost.

  30. #510
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    @Markhor What do you make of these pointless European elections and who will you be voting for ?
    @Robert for the first time in maybe 10 or 15 years my family voted for the Lib Dems I can't personally forgive them for the tuition fees otherwise would have this time, it's such a tough position I can't go for Change UK because it has Tories in it, Labour am 50/50 with and they are 50/50 on many topics to which leaves me with the Greens but in Brum, no one really stands a chance against Labour regardless so perhaps a vote for them is a vote in a two horse race between Labour and Conservatives for me anyway


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  31. #511
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    @shaz619 Clegg was daft to make that promise before he had studied the accounts and realised the hole the universities were in.

    But he is gone from politics.

  32. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @shaz619 Clegg was daft to make that promise before he had studied the accounts and realised the hole the universities were in.

    But he is gone from politics.
    Out of 4 possible votes 3 of them have gone to the Lib Dems in me house so it's fine I do respect their manifesto and position, but would their stance change if they began to wield more influence ? they are making big gains in Brum


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  33. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Out of 4 possible votes 3 of them have gone to the Lib Dems in me house so it's fine I do respect their manifesto and position, but would their stance change if they began to wield more influence ? they are making big gains in Brum
    Could depend on the next leader.

    I think that Jo Swinson is centre-right like Clegg, but Sir Ed Davey could win. He was Climate Change Minister in Coalition and was instrumental in getting the French, Germans and Poles on board for the Climate Change EU Directive. That made Obama and the Chinese sit up, and join the Paris Agreement. So Davey pushed the first domino that led to this excellent international accord to limit global warming damage.

    In any event there will be no more coalitions with the Tories which toxified the LDs (and in turn made the Tories less toxic).

  34. #514
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    Sick to death of Brexit now, absolutely exhausted from it all. Quite close to taking a few steps back from politics until a resolution has been reached on the EU. We need to return to a busy and issue-littered domestic agenda ASAP.

  35. #515
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    this thread should be renamed to just "british politics" cos it aint moving anywhere, just limping along in giants circles like a blind dude with a short leg....

  36. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @shaz619 Clegg was daft to make that promise before he had studied the accounts and realised the hole the universities were in.

    But he is gone from politics.
    Nope. It was not about the books. Clegg was offered deputy PM position by Cameron on the condition he conceded on student loans. Power, Money, and Greed.

    He might be gone from politics, but his failed legacy lives on - LDs had one shot, and Clegg blew it.

  37. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Nope. It was not about the books. Clegg was offered deputy PM position by Cameron on the condition he conceded on student loans. Power, Money, and Greed.

    He might be gone from politics, but his failed legacy lives on - LDs had one shot, and Clegg blew it.
    Nobody joins LD for money, power and greed - they have a much better chance of a Cabinet post in Labour or Tories.

    Nobody in Coalition knew about the hole education was in until all the Cabinet positions were announced.

    LDs just gained 700 Councillors and are second in the Euro polls so the recovery is well under way.

  38. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Nobody joins LD for money, power and greed - they have a much better chance of a Cabinet post in Labour or Tories.

    Nobody in Coalition knew about the hole education was in until all the Cabinet positions were announced.

    LDs just gained 700 Councillors and are second in the Euro polls so the recovery is well under way.
    I didn't say Nick Clegg joined for LDs for money and power. Money, Power, and Greed were the reasons he reneged on his promise for the sake of becoming deputy PM.

    When LDs gain 50 odd seats they lost in Parliament, because of Clegg, then LDs can claim they have moved on from Clegg's disastrous legacy. How long is Vince cable going to be leader of the LDs? Sign of desperation if you ask me.

    If nobody knew the hole education was in at the time of the coalition, then it proves even further just how incompetent the LDs are.

  39. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I didn't say Nick Clegg joined for LDs for money and power. Money, Power, and Greed were the reasons he reneged on his promise for the sake of becoming deputy PM.

    When LDs gain 50 odd seats they lost in Parliament, because of Clegg, then LDs can claim they have moved on from Clegg's disastrous legacy. How long is Vince cable going to be leader of the LDs? Sign of desperation if you ask me.
    I expect his to announce his stand-down in a few days. New leader by July. I think Sir Ed Davey.

    If nobody knew the hole education was in at the time of the coalition, then it proves even further just how incompetent the LDs are.
    Nobody can know what a set of accounts say without opening them.

    He actually lost seats before coming into government. Kennedy had more seats and they all voted against the Iraq War.

    Clegg’s tragedy is that he made the Tories look humane, because they nicked the credit for his good achievements. He was a friendly Lib Dem Labrador amid a Tory pack of jackals.

  40. #520
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    LOL Fib Dems

    How can you have the temerity to call 4th place a 'fightback'




  41. #521
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  42. #522
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    Last edited by s28; 21st May 2019 at 07:55.

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  44. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    LOL Fib Dems

    How can you have the temerity to call 4th place a 'fightback'
    +700 wards last month, and second place in the Euros.

    Success breeds success which will start to translate into more MPs.

    As for “Fib Dems” what do you think of the lie of “jobs first Brexit”? You might as well say “buildings first tsunami”.

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    Jeremy Hunt and Sajid Javid have requested private meetings with the PM this afternoon...

    Sounds like the gig is up for May.

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    Looking increasingly likely that it’ll be Boris as the next PM and that he will take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal.

  47. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Looking increasingly likely that it’ll be Boris as the next PM and that he will take the United Kingdom out of the European Union without a deal.
    Not sure how, Tories just do not have the numbers and the parliamentary numbers are against them.

    That 2017 GE, will go down in the history as the worst political mistake in living memory. Instead of gaining seats, tories loss the majority - all because Corbyn was underestimated, and the polls were inaccurate.

    No wonder the was an official inquiry into how the polls go it so wrong!

  48. #528
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    Who have you guys voted for in the European elections ?


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  49. #529
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    Green.

  50. #530
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    May will resign tommorow.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  51. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Not sure how, Tories just do not have the numbers and the parliamentary numbers are against them.

    That 2017 GE, will go down in the history as the worst political mistake in living memory. Instead of gaining seats, tories loss the majority - all because Corbyn was underestimated, and the polls were inaccurate.
    Not all.

    The Tories ran the worst campaign I can remember with May doing her robot impression spewing soundbites instead of thinking on her feet, and shooting their core support in the foot with the dementia tax.

    While Parliament has voted against No Deal, Boris could just do nothing until it happens by default.

  52. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Who have you guys voted for in the European elections ?
    LD. Best chance of reducing probable Brexit Party MEPs by one where I live.

  53. #533
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    She has resigned.

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    Theresa May announces her resignation as Prime Minister

    Theresa May has bowed to intense pressure from her own party and named 7 June as the day she will step aside as Conservative leader, drawing her turbulent three-year premiership to a close.

    Speaking in Downing Street, May said it had been “the honour of my life” to serve as Britain’s second female prime minister. Her voice breaking, she said she would leave “with no ill will, but with enormous and enduring gratitude to have had the opportunity to serve the country I love”.

    The prime minister listed a series of what she said were her government’s achievements, including tackling the deficit, reducing unemployment and boosting funding for mental health.

    But she admitted: “It is and will alway remain a matter of deep regret to me that I have not been able to deliver Brexit.”

    May’s announcement came after a meeting with Graham Brady, the chair of the backbench 1922 Committee – which was prepared to trigger a second no-confidence vote in her leadership if she refused to resign.

    Her fate was sealed after a 10-point “new Brexit deal”, announced in a speech on Tuesday, infuriated Tory backbenchers and many of her own cabinet – while falling flat with the Labour MPs it was meant to persuade.

    The leader of the House of Commons, Andrea Leadsom, resigned on Wednesday, rather than present the Brexit bill to parliament.

    A string of other cabinet ministers had also expressed concerns, including Sajid Javid, Jeremy Hunt, Chris Grayling and David Mundell.

    In particular, they rejected May’s promise to give MPs a vote on a second referendum as the Brexit bill passed through parliament, and implement the result – which they felt came too close to endorsing the idea.

    The prime minister will remain in Downing Street, to shoulder the blame for what are expected to be dire results for her party at Thursday’s European elections – and to host Donald Trump when he visits.

    The 1922 Committee will set out the terms of a leadership contest, to kick off on 7 June, which is expected to last perhaps six weeks.

    The former foreign secretary Boris Johnson is the front-runner to be Britain’s next prime minister; but more than a dozen senior Tory figures are considering throwing their hats into the ring.

    In the cabinet, Rory Stewart has already said he will stand, while Jeremy Hunt, Michael Gove, Penny Mordaunt and Sajid Javid are all likely contenders.

    May’s departure came after three years of wrangling with Brexiters on her own backbenches about what future relationship with the European Union they would be prepared to accept.

    That became considerably more difficult when she lost her majority at the 2017 general election, after spearheading what was widely regarded as a disastrous campaign, promising “strong and stable leadership in the national interest”.

    Brexit is likely to dominate the race to succeed May, with time increasingly tight for a new team to set out any new direction before the deadline of 31 October for Britain’s departure from the EU.

    May’s longtime friend Damian Green, the former first secretary of state, defended her record on Friday.

    He said: “All prime ministers, in the end, take responsibility for what happens on their watch, but I think that it’s undeniable that suddenly and unexpectedly becoming prime minister after the seismic shock of the Brexit referendum meant that she was dealt an extremely difficult hand to play. And the truth is that having an election a year later, which cut the Conservative party’s majority, then [made it] impossible.”

    Green told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “The fact that parliament has not been able to get a Brexit deal through has led to the impatience, bordering into contempt, for the political class and the amount of hostility and borderline violence is something we have not known for a very very long time.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...rvative-brexit


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  55. #535
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    She's gone at last.

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    May becomes the fourth Conservative Prime Minister to resign over Europe following Thatcher, Major and Cameron.

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    Her statement revealed she is human like anyone, to the point yet emotional.

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    To add, when the Tories lost their majority in 2017, that was the moment she lost control.

    2017 GE will be taught in school and political spheres for decades to comes.

    Who'd have thought it, Corbyn was her undoing!

  59. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Who have you guys voted for in the European elections ?
    Lib Dems, and yes it was a protest vote.
    There really was no other choice.

    Having said that, I have always been a Tory voter but after the current fiasco I'm now slowly moving towards the Lib Dems.

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    Not set in stone yet, but just a few years ago who would have envisaged a world where we have Johnson as PM and Trump as the US President??

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    In the last GE I voted for Corbyn's Labour, thankfully have never voted for Nu Lab under Blair/Brown.

    These Euro elections I saw as a proxy 2nd ref so voted for Brexit Party, in the northwest the BP campaign was run by a former Communist so it is a broad based coalition. In any future GE would probably vote Lab.

  62. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by irfan View Post
    In the last GE I voted for Corbyn's Labour, thankfully have never voted for Nu Lab under Blair/Brown.

    These Euro elections I saw as a proxy 2nd ref so voted for Brexit Party, in the northwest the BP campaign was run by a former Communist so it is a broad based coalition. In any future GE would probably vote Lab.
    How can a socialist possibly vote for Brexit? The working class will be hurt the most - millions of jobs lost and austerity forever. You are putting your ideology before the lives of the people you claim to support!

  63. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    How can a socialist possibly vote for Brexit? The working class will be hurt the most - millions of jobs lost and austerity forever. You are putting your ideology before the lives of the people you claim to support!
    It is possible to be a socialist whilst having full sovereign control. That's the idea isn't it?

    You seem to oppose socialism, meaning you support capitalism, and if you support capitalism then not only are you putting your ideology first, but you must also accept that in capitalism, there are winners, and losers.

  64. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post

    Having said that, I have always been a Tory voter but after the current fiasco I'm now slowly moving towards the Lib Dems.
    Following Lord Heseltine and Lord Cooper.

  65. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post

    You seem to oppose socialism, meaning you support capitalism, and if you support capitalism then not only are you putting your ideology first, but you must also accept that in capitalism, there are winners, and losers.
    This isn’t Boolean logic.

    I’m for the people. That means applying whatever mix of capitalism and socialism benefits the most people in any given situation, and tearing down any structure which disempowers the people. This is true Liberalism.

  66. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    This isn’t Boolean logic.

    I’m for the people. That means applying whatever mix of capitalism and socialism benefits the most people in any given situation, and tearing down any structure which disempowers the people. This is true Liberalism.
    You are not for the people. You are supporting a party that is trying to overturn a democratic decision before its implementation, the result of the largest democratic exercise in British history. True liberalism? More like a poor man's version of dictatorship.

  67. #547
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    I need to hear from our resident political expert:

    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Oh dear.

    May will resign? This is news? Please catch up. There was a vote of no confidence in May recently, and she won. She won not because she was competent, but because the alternate threat was Corbyn as PM! This fact is the one glue which unites the Tory party!

    What does this mean? She is UNTOUCHABLE for 365 days.

    Don't you guys get it? Corbyn is the reason why May is still PM.

  68. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
    I need to hear from our resident political expert:



    She wasn't voted out, through a vote of no confidence. She was untouchable till the end of the year. She decided to resign.

    Big difference for a Big Mac.

  69. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    You are not for the people. You are supporting a party that is trying to overturn a democratic decision before its implementation, the result of the largest democratic exercise in British history. True liberalism? More like a poor man's version of dictatorship.

    Brexit is the perfect example of a structure which hurts the people. If you want to see poor men, wait for Brexit.

    But only the people can stop it. This is more liberty and democracy, not less.

  70. #550
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    https://www.newstatesman.com/theresa...-next-leader-1

    Theresa May will stand down as leader of the Conservative Party on 7 June, triggering a leadership election, the exact length of which has yet to be decided. She leaves behind one hell of a mess.

    She bowed out with the rampant shamelessness that has typified her public statements: talking about compromise “not being a dirty word” in the exact same square foot where she tried to whip up an angry mob against parliament not two months ago. She also talked about making sure Grenfell doesn’t happen again, having taken two years to do anything to get the same cladding removed from private tower blocks.

    It makes her the second Conservative prime minister to resign from office since the Brexit vote of 23 June 2016 and it feels like a big bet to think that her replacement will be any more likely to resolve the deadlock than she was.
    Summed up well by Stephen Bush, where were her calls for compromise after the Brexit vote ? Instead in her first few months in office she pandered to the hard right of her party and made ZERO effort to reach across the aisle.

  71. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Brexit is the perfect example of a structure which hurts the people. If you want to see poor men, wait for Brexit.

    But only the people can stop it. This is more liberty and democracy, not less.
    Are you including people who voted for Brexit in your statement, or just the people who support your view?

    Doesn't change the fact the party you are voting for wants to overturn a decision made by the people.

    You cannot say for certain that Brexit would hurt the people, this is project fear again.

    The structure that is hurting people is capitalism.

    The parties wanting to overturn the democratic result are further hurting the people by creating divisions, and destroying faith in democracy.

    You are voting for your ideology, not for the people.

  72. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Are you including people who voted for Brexit in your statement, or just the people who support your view?

    Doesn't change the fact the party you are voting for wants to overturn a decision made by the people.

    You cannot say for certain that Brexit would hurt the people, this is project fear again.

    The structure that is hurting people is capitalism.

    The parties wanting to overturn the democratic result are further hurting the people by creating divisions, and destroying faith in democracy.

    You are voting for your ideology, not for the people.
    The referendum was flawed in many ways and it should never have been a simple yes or no vote and arguably something of this stature should never have been given to the public in the first place.

  73. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    The referendum was flawed in many ways and it should never have been a simple yes or no vote and arguably something of this stature should never have been given to the public in the first place.
    While I agree it can be argued that the referendum was flawed (even though referendums are always include 2 options), but the fact you believe something of this stature should never have been given to the people is just mind blowing given that a referendum is the purest form of democracy.

    You do realize a referendum was put to the people to join the EEC in the 70s. Or are referendums pointless from the losing sides perspective only?

  74. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    While I agree it can be argued that the referendum was flawed (even though referendums are always include 2 options), but the fact you believe something of this stature should never have been given to the people is just mind blowing given that a referendum is the purest form of democracy.

    You do realize a referendum was put to the people to join the EEC in the 70s. Or are referendums pointless from the losing sides perspective only?
    I used to love destroying leave voters but its become extremely tedious now.
    For the sake of uniting Britain I have decided to keep a lid on it.

    But Yes, due to the circumstances, austerity etc, the British people should never have been given this vote.
    I firmly believe this.

    The leave campaign was full of misinformation which people bought into.

    Finally, if Remain had won, I'm 100pct certain that Farage and his ilk would be campaigning now for another referendum.

    Anyway, from someone who is a firm Remainer, who doesn't want to leave without a deal, I'm now
    half wishing we do leave without a deal.

  75. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    I used to love destroying leave voters but its become extremely tedious now.
    For the sake of uniting Britain I have decided to keep a lid on it.

    But Yes, due to the circumstances, austerity etc, the British people should never have been given this vote.
    I firmly believe this.

    The leave campaign was full of misinformation which people bought into.

    Finally, if Remain had won, I'm 100pct certain that Farage and his ilk would be campaigning now for another referendum.

    Anyway, from someone who is a firm Remainer, who doesn't want to leave without a deal, I'm now
    half wishing we do leave without a deal.
    I don't care if you loved destroying leave voters, the fact is you didn't answer my question. Basically you lost the 2016 referendum, (despite the false claims under the guise of project fear), cry about it, claim referendums should not be given to the people, but ignore the fact it was a referendum that lead to the UK to join the EEC, in the first place.

    Both sides lied. This is a fact. Guess what, politicians lie. Tell me something new.

    As for Farage, he was not in any position of power, he is not, was not, and will never be a member of Parliament. You can claim he would have fought for another referendum, sure, but he would not have fought to overturn a decision without implementation. This is the difference.

    Any subsequent referendum on the EU prior to the implementation of the 2016 result, is simply a loser's vote.

    You want another referendum, first wait for the government to impliment the result, THEN campaign for another referedum.

  76. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    I don't care if you loved destroying leave voters, the fact is you didn't answer my question. Basically you lost the 2016 referendum, (despite the false claims under the guise of project fear), cry about it, claim referendums should not be given to the people, but ignore the fact it was a referendum that lead to the UK to join the EEC, in the first place.

    Both sides lied. This is a fact. Guess what, politicians lie. Tell me something new.

    As for Farage, he was not in any position of power, he is not, was not, and will never be a member of Parliament. You can claim he would have fought for another referendum, sure, but he would not have fought to overturn a decision without implementation. This is the difference.

    Any subsequent referendum on the EU prior to the implementation of the 2016 result, is simply a loser's vote.

    You want another referendum, first wait for the government to impliment the result, THEN campaign for another referedum.
    Like I said, people felt disfranchised and feeling the affects of the austerity measures and immigration from Europe, largely from Eastern Europe. The referendum was probably the biggest protest vote in the history of protest votes.

    False claims under the guise of project fear?
    Anyway, this is why I now half hope we do exit without a deal. If and when that happens we will truly know if it was project fear. However, what we do know for a fact is that the UK was not paying in £350m per week to the EU which we could divert to the NHS; that we will not be able to bring in skilled workers from the common wealth or elsewhere without resulting in higher wages which in turn would hit employers such as the the NHS, the services and manufacturing sectors.

    Anyway, i'm sick of arguing on Brexit until we crash out. Then we can see if Britian can prosper by negotiating better trade deals with the rest of the world without compromising on quality.

  77. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMMY69 View Post
    Like I said, people felt disfranchised and feeling the affects of the austerity measures and immigration from Europe, largely from Eastern Europe. The referendum was probably the biggest protest vote in the history of protest votes.

    False claims under the guise of project fear?
    Anyway, this is why I now half hope we do exit without a deal. If and when that happens we will truly know if it was project fear. However, what we do know for a fact is that the UK was not paying in £350m per week to the EU which we could divert to the NHS; that we will not be able to bring in skilled workers from the common wealth or elsewhere without resulting in higher wages which in turn would hit employers such as the the NHS, the services and manufacturing sectors.

    Anyway, i'm sick of arguing on Brexit until we crash out. Then we can see if Britian can prosper by negotiating better trade deals with the rest of the world without compromising on quality.
    Yes false claims under project fear. The lose of 100000s jobs as an example, yet here we are, highest number employed in Britain. Or how about Mark Carney's claims, the head of the BoE, Britain would enter recession, well I am not seeing this, all I see is the UK is one of the fastest growing economies in the Europe. As for the £350M. May stated on LBC the figure was higher, and not only that she injected the equivalent of £350M per week for the NHS!

    Yes I agree with you that austerity was the reason behind the 2016 referendum, but don't claim referendums should not be put to the people when the very institution you wish to remain in is the result of a referendum in the UK.

    As I have said above, it is capitalism that is at fault, nothing else. If you do not want to debate Brexit, lets talk about how capitalist model needs to be changed for the betterment of society.

  78. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technics 1210 View Post
    Are you including people who voted for Brexit in your statement, or just the people who support your view?

    Doesn't change the fact the party you are voting for wants to overturn a decision made by the people.

    You cannot say for certain that Brexit would hurt the people, this is project fear again.

    The structure that is hurting people is capitalism.

    The parties wanting to overturn the democratic result are further hurting the people by creating divisions, and destroying faith in democracy.

    You are voting for your ideology, not for the people.
    The people are my ideology. The party I support does not want to overturn the decision, it wants the people to overturn it.

    I can’t say for certain that my heart will carry on beating tomorrow, but I prepare for the probability that it will based on various parameters. Same with Brexit.

  79. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The people are my ideology. The party I support does not want to overturn the decision, it wants the people to overturn it.

    I can’t say for certain that my heart will carry on beating tomorrow, but I prepare for the probability that it will based on various parameters. Same with Brexit.
    Come on mate, your party does want to overturn Brexit, how do you think it is attracting people to it's view? The message of your party is simple, Stop Brexit.

    I am sure you disagree, then do you believe the Brexit Party doesn't want Brexit, but the people do?

    Which people come under your ideology? The one who support staying in the EU? Or all people, ala democracy?

  80. #560
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    The race to become the next Conservative Party leader has begun, following Theresa May's announcement that she will step down next month.

    The contest will not only result in a new party leader, but also in the next prime minister of the UK.

    Party bosses expect a new leader to be chosen by the end of July.

    Mrs May confirmed on Friday that she will resign as party leader on 7 June, but will continue as PM while the leadership contest takes place.

    She agreed with chairman of the Tory backbench 1922 Committee, Sir Graham Brady, that the process to choose a new leader should begin the week after she stands down.

    Four candidates have confirmed their intention to stand:

    Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt
    International Development Secretary Rory Stewart
    Former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
    Former Work and Pensions Secretary Esther McVey
    However, more than a dozen more are believed to be seriously considering running - including Sir Graham, who has resigned as chair of the 1922 Committee.

    Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd has ruled herself out, telling the Daily Telegraph: "I don't think it is my time at the moment."

    She also hinted that she could work with Mr Johnson in the future, saying: "I have worked with him before... we were able to work together."

    On Friday, Environment Secretary Michael Gove - another possible candidate - declined to say whether he would stand, saying it was "the prime minister's day".

    Most bookmakers have Mr Johnson as favourite, in front of former Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab and Mr Gove.

    Tory MPs have until the week commencing 10 June to put their name forward, and any of them can stand - as long as they have the backing of two parliamentary colleagues.

    The candidates will be whittled down until two remain, and in July all party members will vote to decide on the winner.

    The Conservative Party had 124,000 members, as of March last year. The last leader elected by the membership was David Cameron in 2005, as Theresa May was unopposed in 2016.

    It will be the first time Conservative members have directly elected a prime minister, as opposed to a leader of the opposition.

    Announcing her departure in Downing Street, Mrs May urged her successor to "seek a way forward that honours the result of the referendum".

    She added: "To succeed, he or she will have to find consensus in Parliament where I have not.

    "Such a consensus can only be reached if those on all sides of the debate are willing to compromise."

    Mr Johnson told an economic conference in Switzerland on Friday that a new leader would have "the opportunity to do things differently".

    Outlining his Brexit position, he told the conference: "We will leave the EU on 31 October, deal or no deal. The way to get a good deal is to prepare for a no deal."

    Who are the Conservative members?
    Most members of most parties in the UK are pretty middle-class. But Conservative Party members are the most middle-class of all: 86% fall into the ABC1 category.

    Around a quarter of them are, or were, self-employed and nearly half of them work, or used to, in the private sector.

    Nearly four out of 10 put their annual income at over £30,000, and one in 20 put it at over £100,000. As such, Tory members are considerably better-off than most voters.

    Read more from Prof Tim Bale here

    Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats have also begun their search for a new leader after Sir Vince Cable confirmed he would hand over the reins on 23 July.

    Sir Vince announced in March that he would stand down after the local elections in May, but after a strong performance from the party some questioned whether he would stay on.

    However, in a statement on Friday, he said: "We have rebuilt the Liberal Democrats. I will be proud to hand over a bigger, stronger party."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48403705


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