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  1. #1
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    If society becomes dangerous for children, who should be blamed? Government or parents?

    I'm surprised that after the Zainab incident, many politicians have went on to blame parenting. Even though it has been mentioned that 8-10 rape/murder cases have taken place in one area alone. This itself shows how society is unsafe.

    Now, who to blame here?

    Politicians, who have not bothered to keep society safe, and always over looking and letting criminals on the loose just because of their links?

    Or

    Parents, who cannot apply helicopter parenting due to other burdens of life?


    "Life is Pain"
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  2. #2
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    The criminals and their enablers.


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  3. #3
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    As a parent i would always be weary of family (where most abuse takes) ,friends( the next biggest danger to children) and strangers but there is only so much you can do. But if abusers are protected because of their connections and incompetence of the Police and govt, what can parents do?

  4. #4
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    Depends on the circumstances.

    Goverments in nations such as the UK are to blame for the epidimic levels of child abuse, peodohiplia we see in the society here. There are to blame because they are not willing to change the law so the punishments for such offences are strong. They also accommodate offenders in prisons where they get an easy life.

    Parents can only be blamed if they neglect their children, this is open to interpretation and again depending on the circumstances.


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  5. #5
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    1. The criminal(s)
    2.The Govt, law enforcement, and the justice system.
    That's really it, you can't blame the parents cause that could've been anybody's child.


    "Be the best version of yourself"

  6. #6
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    Governments are paid by us to build a functioning society where it is safe for children, this includes education, justice and rule of law.

  7. #7
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    Its the parents responsibility ofcourse but the government cannot turn a blind eye when there are 8 cases of child rape and murder that is just ridiculous.

    It is important to make sure people know who these people are and where they live. For example in USA the police has a database where any person charged with sexual offense needs to register and information about these people is available online. These types of tools need to be made available so society is aware of what is actually happening in their own neighborhood and is not so blind.

  8. #8
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    We live in a country where the police opens fire on people protesting rape and murder of a 7 year old and politicians like Rana Sanuallah and Shahbaz Sharif defend it.


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  9. #9
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    These shameful crimes against children happen in the West as well. The perpetrators have been punished in the West as well. There is no real cure to sickness, the key is a powerful law and order environment where these episodes are always met with punishment.

  10. #10
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    If society becomes dangerous for children, SOCIETY should be blamed. To be honest, one of the bigger reasons for these animals moving around freely is that the society cares more about "izzat" than actually going all out against them.
    All the other factors are secondary.

    I was reading that there were more than 280 such cases in last 1 year where children had been attacked in the same area. Are we to believe that if all 280 parents would have pursued their respective cases seriously, nothing would have come out of it? This is a big enough number to cause riots if they didnt get justice. I can understand in some cases people are poor,uneducated and dont know their options. They should be guided. Some are threatened with death even. But which parent would fear death when it comes to the protection of their children.

    The society needs to set a standard to pursue such cases with all their power and not think about "izzat" and all other bull sheet.

  11. #11
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    Of course the answer is black and white for this. It is mix of parents, government and society.

    Pakistani society in general really needs to wake up and smell the coffee. There was this drama "Udaari" which was about child molestation and people demanded that to be banned because it was too painful to watch. Yes it was painful to watch but this pain is very important for education purposes to create awareness in society.

    You can blame parents to some extent for not talking to their kids about it which i am uncomfortable with myself but you have to talk to them and create awareness.

    Let's not even talk about government, this is least of their priorities, if Kasur case where hundreds of kids were impacted can be ignored then this is piece of cake for them. Same drama about "Notice by Shahbaz Sharif" just because there was massive uproar.

  12. #12
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    Rape incidents are very rare(as compared to other regions of India) here in Kashmir but there are hundreds of such cases pending in courts. Only one case has been solved and justice has been served in the history of Kashmir and it took 9 long years for that to happen. When Law and order and Judiciary works at this rate then they are the biggest culprits for me. There have been instances of judges being bribed by the culprits.
    Last edited by UN talkz; 11th January 2018 at 04:43.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    We live in a country where the police opens fire on people protesting rape and murder of a 7 year old and politicians like Rana Sanuallah and Shahbaz Sharif defend it.
    We don't live there...but yes I agree with your statement.

  14. #14
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    It pains me to see where the world is heading to, the moral decay of the whole planet is frightening to be honest. The pain of hellish worlds pales in comparison to listening stories about crime on children.

    As common people we don't have much power, all we can do is to think good, be good to others, do good deeds and let fate look after things.

  15. #15
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    It's obviously two different things. Unfortunately there are crimes against children all over the world, and those in public office have to make sure public places are made as safe as possible, and at the same time, parents must realise that no one else is going to ultimately be responsible for the safety of their children.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Can’t believe that some people are buying into the blaming the parents propaganda. I don’t have kids but I think it is impossible for any parent to keep an eye on their kids 100% of the time. Also, how would kids develop any social skills if parents are with them all the time?

    The government is fully responsible to provide a safe environment for all their citizens.

  17. #17
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    The state is fully responsible for providing a safe and just environment for everyone.


    Sehwag and Steyn are the Best.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayle_Force View Post
    Can’t believe that some people are buying into the blaming the parents propaganda. I don’t have kids but I think it is impossible for any parent to keep an eye on their kids 100% of the time. Also, how would kids develop any social skills if parents are with them all the time?

    The government is fully responsible to provide a safe environment for all their citizens.
    No idea about the area which the incident in the OP took place, but it would depend a lot on where you live. I live in England, and I can tell you now that there are places I wouldn't let my kids wander around unsupervised.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    No idea about the area which the incident in the OP took place, but it would depend a lot on where you live. I live in England, and I can tell you now that there are places I wouldn't let my kids wander around unsupervised.
    I understand as that would clearly be negligence but kids do go to school, play sports, go to pray, participate in other leisure activities etc. Parents can’t be with them all the time.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayle_Force View Post
    I understand as that would clearly be negligence but kids do go to school, play sports, go to pray, participate in other leisure activities etc. Parents can’t be with them all the time.
    Obviously not, I'm answering the question posed by the OP. You would expect the govt to make society safe in general, but if your kids go missing, blaming the govt won't bring them back. I'm thinking back to the Madelaine McCann case a few years ago, when she was abducted while on holiday with her parents in Portugal.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Obviously not, I'm answering the question posed by the OP. You would expect the govt to make society safe in general, but if your kids go missing, blaming the govt won't bring them back. I'm thinking back to the Madelaine McCann case a few years ago, when she was abducted while on holiday with her parents in Portugal.
    Wasn't it found out that it was parents themselves who were involved in that case?


    #Mein inko rolaonga

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Wasn't it found out that it was parents themselves who were involved in that case?
    No, they were negligent but not the ones that kidnapped her.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayle_Force View Post
    I understand as that would clearly be negligence but kids do go to school, play sports, go to pray, participate in other leisure activities etc. Parents can’t be with them all the time.
    I'm sorry why not? a seven year old should not be left alone period. At anytime in any society. We live in a sick world and children are targets. I never let my kids out of my sight. And they pray and go and play sports.

    As for this particular case, this is a direct result of the collapse of law and order. I would ratehr live in a racist country with law and order than a non racist one that is lawless..

    Its clear there is a ring in this area and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Rural Pakistan is riddled with pornography and its ill effects not to mention, abuse, misogyny etc,. This is a consequence of such deviant tendencies.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    I'm sorry why not? a seven year old should not be left alone period. At anytime in any society. We live in a sick world and children are targets. I never let my kids out of my sight. And they pray and go and play sports.

    As for this particular case, this is a direct result of the collapse of law and order. I would ratehr live in a racist country with law and order than a non racist one that is lawless..

    Its clear there is a ring in this area and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Rural Pakistan is riddled with pornography and its ill effects not to mention, abuse, misogyny etc,. This is a consequence of such deviant tendencies.
    you are right
    law and order is the main problem here.

    Be it Zardari, Musharaffe or Nawaz. The Law and Order hasn't improved.


    "Life is Pain"
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  25. #25
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    Society itself deserves the bulk of the blame. We will come out on the streets, burn some random people's property but not address the root causes because those involve asking uncomfortable questions about the foundation our society and culture are built on.

    We can not address the issue of child rape in Pakistan without addressing the sexualization of children that is a natural consequence of society not just condoning but actively promoting child marriage and defending it against any criticism. We can not "create awareness", the most common refrain for amateur social reformers, without talking about sex, a big no-no in Pakistani society. Just see how society reacts to sex education being added to school curricula. We also can not address the elephant in the room, the prevailing attitudes towards sex in Pakistan and how entire generation of frustrated adults with no form of release can create a ticking time bomb. Sociologists have been crying themselves hoarse over a potential 10-15 million men in China, a country of 1.4 billion, posing a serious threat to social stability because there literally aren't enough women in the country for them. Imagine that scenario in a country where it's every man until he's married. Then there's the usual whataboutism along the lines of pedophilia being prevalent in the west too but these cases in Pakistan can not be compared to pedophilia in the west for several reasons, key among them being that it's not natural for pedophilia to be this prevalent anywhere and pedophiles are generally cowards who don't murder and dump their victims, exceptions notwithstanding. It is representative of a greater issue that absolutely no one is willing to talk about and many are willing to go out of their way to suppress any discussion on the subject from those who actually want to talk about the issues.

    The Zainab case is one of many such cases that cause a temporary hue and cry, and then die down. The exact same thing happened in Karachi a few years ago to a three year old who was discovered in a sewer (or water tank, I'm hazy on the details since it was a long time ago) and it has been happening regularly. Another 15 year old was found raped and murdered today, just one day after the Zainab case, in a field in Sargodha. These cases are not comparable to cases of pedophilia, simply because of

    The government is simply an agent of the society and fairly representative too. While the common perception is that governments in Pakistan operate in isolation from the public they're serving, that's only partly true. While governments do their own thing on the economic front, on social issues you'll be hard pushed to find a government anywhere in the world that delivers on the public's demands as quickly and as frequently as Pakistani governments, regardless of party affiliation, do.


    Roses are red
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    *Redacted*

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Society itself deserves the bulk of the blame. We will come out on the streets, burn some random people's property but not address the root causes because those involve asking uncomfortable questions about the foundation our society and culture are built on.

    We can not address the issue of child rape in Pakistan without addressing the sexualization of children that is a natural consequence of society not just condoning but actively promoting child marriage and defending it against any criticism. We can not "create awareness", the most common refrain for amateur social reformers, without talking about sex, a big no-no in Pakistani society. Just see how society reacts to sex education being added to school curricula. We also can not address the elephant in the room, the prevailing attitudes towards sex in Pakistan and how entire generation of frustrated adults with no form of release can create a ticking time bomb. Sociologists have been crying themselves hoarse over a potential 10-15 million men in China, a country of 1.4 billion, posing a serious threat to social stability because there literally aren't enough women in the country for them. Imagine that scenario in a country where it's every man until he's married. Then there's the usual whataboutism along the lines of pedophilia being prevalent in the west too but these cases in Pakistan can not be compared to pedophilia in the west for several reasons, key among them being that it's not natural for pedophilia to be this prevalent anywhere and pedophiles are generally cowards who don't murder and dump their victims, exceptions notwithstanding. It is representative of a greater issue that absolutely no one is willing to talk about and many are willing to go out of their way to suppress any discussion on the subject from those who actually want to talk about the issues.

    The Zainab case is one of many such cases that cause a temporary hue and cry, and then die down. The exact same thing happened in Karachi a few years ago to a three year old who was discovered in a sewer (or water tank, I'm hazy on the details since it was a long time ago) and it has been happening regularly. Another 15 year old was found raped and murdered today, just one day after the Zainab case, in a field in Sargodha. These cases are not comparable to cases of pedophilia, simply because of

    The government is simply an agent of the society and fairly representative too. While the common perception is that governments in Pakistan operate in isolation from the public they're serving, that's only partly true. While governments do their own thing on the economic front, on social issues you'll be hard pushed to find a government anywhere in the world that delivers on the public's demands as quickly and as frequently as Pakistani governments, regardless of party affiliation, do.
    There's also this documentary of bachaybazi in Peshawar. i think it stems from an ultra conservative culture where the genders are segregated.


    "Be the best version of yourself"

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakistanian View Post
    There's also this documentary of bachaybazi in Peshawar. i think it stems from an ultra conservative culture where the genders are segregated.

    Peshawar, Kasur, Taunsa, the whole country really. This is a natural outcome of an entire society being sexually deprived under fear of death.


    Roses are red
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    *Redacted*

  28. #28
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    I agree with the above three posts.

    I'm sure the parents will agonise over them not being there for their child until their last day on earth. However often children are well intentionally left in the care of family members or distant relatives, who sometimes turn out to be the culprits of these crimes.

    Where society is at fault is for the total lack of sex education in schools, failure to arrest and prosecute the perpetrators who often have links to powertul officials, and an ultra conservative religious culture that promotes extreme gender segregation and suppresses natural urges - which manifests itself in horrific ways.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    I'm sorry why not? a seven year old should not be left alone period. At anytime in any society. We live in a sick world and children are targets. I never let my kids out of my sight. And they pray and go and play sports.

    As for this particular case, this is a direct result of the collapse of law and order. I would ratehr live in a racist country with law and order than a non racist one that is lawless..

    Its clear there is a ring in this area and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Rural Pakistan is riddled with pornography and its ill effects not to mention, abuse, misogyny etc,. This is a consequence of such deviant tendencies.
    Unless you are super rich and can afford to not work and have no other obligations, There is no way to be with a kid 100% of the time.

    Unfortunately, not everyone gets the option or the privilege to live in a society with law and order.

  30. #30
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    Both.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gayle_Force View Post
    Unless you are super rich and can afford to not work and have no other obligations, There is no way to be with a kid 100% of the time.

    Unfortunately, not everyone gets the option or the privilege to live in a society with law and order.
    I lived in pakistan too and would never let my little siblings be left alone with relatives. My parents kept us pretty safe considering law and order was almost non existant.

    Coming onto the posts above about a repressive religious culture and the lack of sex education. We have sex education in the uk. It is an openly sexual society but abuse is so rife its become normal. Women just shrug their shoulders and see it as a normal thing. Men dont talk about it. Rape happens all the time. Peadophilia is so rife you have a case nearly every day.

    But the different is they are caught, tried and convicted. People can see action being taken. You can talk about sex till the cows come home but if you dont combine it with a comprehensive law and order strategy you will simple make the problem worse.

    The issue is also (and I will come at this from a islamic perspective as opposed to me colleagues above who will address it from a more secular point of view). Sex education is an essential part of a Muslims basic knowledge base. We should be talking to our children from as early an age as possible about sex, its importance within (halal) relationships, pitfalls and what Islam says about it. What you have in Pakistan is a weird repressive culture that associates honour with the woman while the man is exempt. It makes talking about sex a taboo while everyone is watching porn.

    We need a robust law and order setup to prevent sexual crime. At the same time we need to make it easier for conservative parents to talk about sex with their children and in wider society. Those on here who want a western style secular society need to understand that that approach wont work. The provision of education, law and order and health are all inter-related and subsequent governments just dont have the intellectual capacity to handle any of it.

    they need to stop hiring ego driven consultants, quasi journalists and business men to run affairs.

    Its a complete mess and until we get real leadership in all these areas it will get worse to the point where the hypocrites will take over, and start burning people at the stake like they are doing across the border.

  32. #32
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    Relevant to the topic here is a report of number of cases of child abuse in pakistan. Don't know if the difference between provinces is because parents are more careful in one province than other? or if governance is better in one or other?


    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1363150...ases-pakistan/

    10% increase in child abuse cases in Pakistan

    ISLAMABAD:
    At least 11 children became victims of sexual abuse everyday while almost 100 were murdered after sexual assault in 2016, a 10 per cent increase in such cases compared to the previous year, a report launched on Wednesday stated.

    Out of the sexual abuse victims, 41 per cent were boys. As many as 2,410 girls and 1,729 boys were sexually abused last year.

    The report, ‘Cruel numbers 2016’ revealed that 4,139 children were sexually abused last year out of which 76 per cent cases were reported from rural areas whereas 24 per cent were reported from urban areas.

    The report has been compiled after monitoring and gathering data from 86 national, regional and local newspapers.

    Punjab reported the highest number of cases (2,676) in 2016 which were followed by 987 cases reported from Sindh, 166 from Balochistan, 156 from Islamabad, 141 from Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, nine from Azad Jammu and Kashmir and four cases from Gilgit-Baltistan.

    Of the total around 78 per cent of cases were registered with the police, 32 per cent were unregistered, whereas police refused to register an FIR for 142 cases.

    The study reveals that among major crime categories, 1,445 cases of abduction were reported, followed by 502 rape cases, 453 cases of sodomy, 217 gang rape cases, 268 gang sodomy and 362 cases of attempt of child sexual abuse.

    For the sake of the children

    A 19 per cent increase has been reported in abduction cases which have increased from 1,386 cases in 2015 to 1,654 cases in 2016 bringing the number of abducted children to five per day.

    The highest percentage of vulnerable age group among both boys and girls was reported between the ages of 11 and 15 years and the second vulnerable group between the ages of 6 and 10 years.

    Around 97 per cent of the children were abused once and in three per cent of the cases children were abused for more than a day, says the report.

    A majority of the abusers were found to be acquaintances of the victims (1,765), 798 were strangers.

    The report also highlights the 176 cases of child marriage reported in 2016.

    “Child sexual abuse is a global issue and challenging for every country to address,” First Secretary Development to Royal Norwegian Embassy Tom Jorgen said.

    He said that there is a need to address the entire child protection to bring some significant and meaningful change in society.

    National Commissioner for Children Ejaz Ahmed Qureshi stated that there are around 100 million children in Pakistan to be looked after.
    Punjab reported the highest number of cases (2,676) in 2016 which were followed by 987 cases reported from Sindh, 166 from Balochistan, 156 from Islamabad, 141 from Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, nine from Azad Jammu and Kashmir and four cases from Gilgit-Baltistan.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Society itself deserves the bulk of the blame. We will come out on the streets, burn some random people's property but not address the root causes because those involve asking uncomfortable questions about the foundation our society and culture are built on.

    We can not address the issue of child rape in Pakistan without addressing the sexualization of children that is a natural consequence of society not just condoning but actively promoting child marriage and defending it against any criticism. We can not "create awareness", the most common refrain for amateur social reformers, without talking about sex, a big no-no in Pakistani society. Just see how society reacts to sex education being added to school curricula. We also can not address the elephant in the room, the prevailing attitudes towards sex in Pakistan and how entire generation of frustrated adults with no form of release can create a ticking time bomb. Sociologists have been crying themselves hoarse over a potential 10-15 million men in China, a country of 1.4 billion, posing a serious threat to social stability because there literally aren't enough women in the country for them. Imagine that scenario in a country where it's every man until he's married. Then there's the usual whataboutism along the lines of pedophilia being prevalent in the west too but these cases in Pakistan can not be compared to pedophilia in the west for several reasons, key among them being that it's not natural for pedophilia to be this prevalent anywhere and pedophiles are generally cowards who don't murder and dump their victims, exceptions notwithstanding. It is representative of a greater issue that absolutely no one is willing to talk about and many are willing to go out of their way to suppress any discussion on the subject from those who actually want to talk about the issues.

    The Zainab case is one of many such cases that cause a temporary hue and cry, and then die down. The exact same thing happened in Karachi a few years ago to a three year old who was discovered in a sewer (or water tank, I'm hazy on the details since it was a long time ago) and it has been happening regularly. Another 15 year old was found raped and murdered today, just one day after the Zainab case, in a field in Sargodha. These cases are not comparable to cases of pedophilia, simply because of

    The government is simply an agent of the society and fairly representative too. While the common perception is that governments in Pakistan operate in isolation from the public they're serving, that's only partly true. While governments do their own thing on the economic front, on social issues you'll be hard pushed to find a government anywhere in the world that delivers on the public's demands as quickly and as frequently as Pakistani governments, regardless of party affiliation, do.
    So you feel that when child rape happens in Pakistan it is due to Islam itself. That is a surprising change of direction from you I must admit. No wonder you are scornful of the public who have went on the rampage against this tragedy, their crocodile tears are worthless it seems.


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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmz View Post
    Relevant to the topic here is a report of number of cases of child abuse in pakistan. Don't know if the difference between provinces is because parents are more careful in one province than other? or if governance is better in one or other?


    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1363150...ases-pakistan/



    Punjab reported the highest number of cases (2,676) in 2016 which were followed by 987 cases reported from Sindh, 166 from Balochistan, 156 from Islamabad, 141 from Khyber-Pakhtunkwa, nine from Azad Jammu and Kashmir and four cases from Gilgit-Baltistan.
    Those numbers are not even on the same planet as reality since they include only reported or known cases which make up a fraction of a percentage point of all the actual cases. They also reflect the cultural variances between different parts of the country as ultraconservative KPK, with 30 odd million people, reports fewer cases than relatively liberal (by Pakistani standards) Islamabad with it's population of ~2 million despite KPK being a hub of child abuse. 141 cases from KPK in 2016 is a joke. There's probably more children than that abused on any given day in a second tier KPK city like Mardan or Nowshehra.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So you feel that when child rape happens in Pakistan it is due to Islam itself. That is a surprising change of direction from you I must admit. No wonder you are scornful of the public who have went on the rampage against this tragedy, their crocodile tears are worthless it seems.
    The fact that you were able to condense your inferences from a 500 word post into two and a half lines, one and a half of which is irrelevant, should be enough of an indication that you're probably missing something. To simplify, let me put it this way: due to the overarching presence of religion in the development of our culture and social norms, any discussion on them without addressing the role of religion is meaningless. I am scornful of the public because while they burn a few unrelated people's cars and shops to register their "protest", they refuse to allow any deeper exploration of the underlying causes because that, as I said previously, entails asking difficult questions about things they hold sacrosanct, of which religion is one.

    This is not the first rampage and it certainly won't be the last. Question is what did those rampages achieve when the same public stood by the clergy when they were fighting for their right to marry children, something that is intricately tied to the religious sensitivities of the society that is apparently so outraged at something they helped create in the first place.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    The fact that you were able to condense your inferences from a 500 word post into two and a half lines, one and a half of which is irrelevant, should be enough of an indication that you're probably missing something. To simplify, let me put it this way: due to the overarching presence of religion in the development of our culture and social norms, any discussion on them without addressing the role of religion is meaningless. I am scornful of the public because while they burn a few unrelated people's cars and shops to register their "protest", they refuse to allow any deeper exploration of the underlying causes because that, as I said previously, entails asking difficult questions about things they hold sacrosanct, of which religion is one.

    This is not the first rampage and it certainly won't be the last. Question is what did those rampages achieve when the same public stood by the clergy when they were fighting for their right to marry children, something that is intricately tied to the religious sensitivities of the society that is apparently so outraged at something they helped create in the first place.
    Of course, I can see the link as well. This fellow who raped a 7 year old was probably thinking it was okay because Islam sanctifies sex with children. The public are two faced by protesting the rape on one hand but eulogising the religion which is the root cause. No wonder you are scornful of the vast majority of your Pakistani countrymen. The rapist seems to be the only one who sees things clearly from an Islamic point of view. Other than you and I it seems.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Of course, I can see the link as well. This fellow who raped a 7 year old was probably thinking it was okay because Islam sanctifies sex with children.
    This fellow was a 20 or 30 something who has almost certainly never had any form of sexual contact with another human being for the ten or so years he has been sexually mature because he lives in a society where that is not a realistic possibility for almost anyone who isn't willing to make a lifelong commitment and get married. He also lives in a society where viewing children as sexual objects is not a taboo like it is in, say, Canada or Sweden because he lives in a society where the dominant culture views children as legitimate sexual objects since the religious makeup of the society heavily favors one particular religion that endorses child marriage. In a nation where there are 60.77 million men who have reached sexual maturity but have no form of release outside of marriage, it takes 0.01% of them to act out this way for us to have around 6000 people like this fellow running around the country.
    Last edited by DW44; 12th January 2018 at 13:21.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    This fellow was a 20 or 30 something who has almost certainly never had any form of sexual contact with another human being for the ten or so years he has been sexually mature because he lives in a society where that is not a realistic possibility for almost anyone who isn't willing to make a lifelong commitment and get married. He also lives in a society where viewing children as sexual objects is not a taboo like it is in, say, Canada or Sweden because he lives in a society where the dominant culture views children as legitimate sexual objects since the religious makeup of the society heavily favors one particular religion that endorses child marriage. In a nation where there are 60.77 million men who have reached sexual maturity but have no form of release outside of marriage, it takes 0.01% of them to act out this way for us to have around 6000 people like this fellow running around the country.
    Pretty much spot on.

    Paedophilia in our country won't be taken seriously because having sex with minors is not a crime. Marriages to 13 and 14 year olds are perfectly legal due to religion. This is not a subjective view, but a simple fact. The reaction of our law minister should tell you as much. This issue will die down after a few weeks like the 2015 scandal did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Pretty much spot on.

    Paedophilia in our country won't be taken seriously because having sex with minors is not a crime. Marriages to 13 and 14 year olds are perfectly legal due to religion. This is not a subjective view, but a simple fact. The reaction of our law minister should tell you as much. This issue will die down after a few weeks like the 2015 scandal did.
    I genuinely don't think that pedophilia is the right term to use in the context of child rape and child abuse in Pakistan. Pedophiles are people who are specifically sexually attracted to children. In Pakistan, the majority of cases seem to indicate a pattern of sexually deprived heterosexual adults preying on children, both male and female, as a low risk target of last resort. Pedophiles also tend to be fairly cowardly and this pattern of killing children and dumping their bodies after raping them (before someone objects, yes, it happens frequently enough to be considered a pattern) is very uncharacteristic of pedophiles who thrive on secrecy and maintaining a facade of normalcy while going out of their way to draw as little attention to their abuse as possible. This is plain, good old fashioned desperation, not pedophilia.
    Last edited by DW44; 12th January 2018 at 13:46.


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    Note that this forum is visited and read by very young people so lets watch how we express ourselves on such topics


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Pretty much spot on.

    Paedophilia in our country won't be taken seriously because having sex with minors is not a crime. Marriages to 13 and 14 year olds are perfectly legal due to religion. This is not a subjective view, but a simple fact. The reaction of our law minister should tell you as much. This issue will die down after a few weeks like the 2015 scandal did.
    Whats the minimum legal age for marriage in Pakistan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Whats the minimum legal age for marriage in Pakistan?
    18 for men, 18 for women in Punjab and Sind, 16 for women in other provinces. These are not enforced though and child marriage is rampant. A full 50%, or half, of all marriages in Pakistan involve a girl under 18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Society itself deserves the bulk of the blame. We will come out on the streets, burn some random people's property but not address the root causes because those involve asking uncomfortable questions about the foundation our society and culture are built on.

    We can not address the issue of child rape in Pakistan without addressing the sexualization of children that is a natural consequence of society not just condoning but actively promoting child marriage and defending it against any criticism. We can not "create awareness", the most common refrain for amateur social reformers, without talking about sex, a big no-no in Pakistani society. Just see how society reacts to sex education being added to school curricula. We also can not address the elephant in the room, the prevailing attitudes towards sex in Pakistan and how entire generation of frustrated adults with no form of release can create a ticking time bomb. Sociologists have been crying themselves hoarse over a potential 10-15 million men in China, a country of 1.4 billion, posing a serious threat to social stability because there literally aren't enough women in the country for them. Imagine that scenario in a country where it's every man until he's married. Then there's the usual whataboutism along the lines of pedophilia being prevalent in the west too but these cases in Pakistan can not be compared to pedophilia in the west for several reasons, key among them being that it's not natural for pedophilia to be this prevalent anywhere and pedophiles are generally cowards who don't murder and dump their victims, exceptions notwithstanding. It is representative of a greater issue that absolutely no one is willing to talk about and many are willing to go out of their way to suppress any discussion on the subject from those who actually want to talk about the issues.

    The Zainab case is one of many such cases that cause a temporary hue and cry, and then die down. The exact same thing happened in Karachi a few years ago to a three year old who was discovered in a sewer (or water tank, I'm hazy on the details since it was a long time ago) and it has been happening regularly. Another 15 year old was found raped and murdered today, just one day after the Zainab case, in a field in Sargodha. These cases are not comparable to cases of pedophilia, simply because of

    The government is simply an agent of the society and fairly representative too. While the common perception is that governments in Pakistan operate in isolation from the public they're serving, that's only partly true. While governments do their own thing on the economic front, on social issues you'll be hard pushed to find a government anywhere in the world that delivers on the public's demands as quickly and as frequently as Pakistani governments, regardless of party affiliation, do.
    You have made some interesting claims.
    I just looked up a couple of stats and found that in 2012 around 67000 cases of child molestation were reported in USA and according the following report , 1 in 35 men in England and wales show paedophilic tendencies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...cy-claims.html

    The numbers are staggering. I mean even if you multiply the numbers of such reported cases in pakistan by 20 , it wont match the numbers in these countries.

    If religion was the cause of it in Pakistan, which you have very reluctantly hinted at, whats the cause for such huge numbers in these western countries?

    You have talked about violence not being a trait generally shown by Paedophiles but which sample are you considering here? You also have to look at socio-cultural aspects and how strong an influence the social mores and norms have on a child molestor (Paedophile or just sex starved). Other factors like whether the molestor knows the family of victim or not also plays a role in determining his eventual actions. There is no certain way to determine what the motivation behind such an attack is unless we know intimate details.

    In my opinion, this is a social reality which exists everywhere. Its not right to solely blame religion for it in Pakistan.

    Like all other places Pakistan has categories of child molestors :

    1 Ultra Religious or even Non- religious folk who want to go by examples which took place thousands of years ago to prove their actions right. Ultra religious people genuinely feel they are right while the non-religious just use religion as an excuse.

    2 People with Mental problems related to Paedophilia who hide behind religion.

    3 Simple Paedophiles who dont use religion, and know what they are doing is wrong.

    4 Simply sex starved individuals who think Children can be soft targets.

    I sincerely dont think religion would play a bigger role in Pakistan as compared to most other countries in such cases. Its a global reality and needs to be tackled by strong laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    18 for men, 18 for women in Punjab and Sind, 16 for women in other provinces. These are not enforced though and child marriage is rampant. A full 50%, or half, of all marriages in Pakistan involve a girl under 18.
    So at least the law , on paper, protects girls from it.

    Like we discussed in the other thread, many problems including Child marriage is a south asian problem, not just a muslim problem in particular. Its shameful that in this day and age it is still prevelant in such huge numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    You have made some interesting claims.
    I just looked up a couple of stats and found that in 2012 around 67000 cases of child molestation were reported in USA and according the following report , 1 in 35 men in England and wales show paedophilic tendencies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...cy-claims.html

    The numbers are staggering. I mean even if you multiply the numbers of such reported cases in pakistan by 20 , it wont match the numbers in these countries.
    Here's the problem with comparing statistics on sex crimes from the UK and US with statistics from Pakistan: Pakistani statistics aren't worth the paper they're printed on. As a general rule of thumb, more conservative societies report sex crimes less frequently than liberal ones. In Pakistan, that problem is further compounded because a rape victim can end up in jail for ten years if she fails to produce four pious male Muslim witnesses. I can confirm that this still happens because it happened only a few months ago. Statistically, a woman in Sweden is more likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman in Pakistan or India (another Pakistan type country) but that doesn't mean that a woman in Sweden is actually more likely to be sexually assaulted.

    The same applies to child rape which is reported even less frequently and the frequency decreases the more conservative the region. This much has been established in a previous post that had official statistics, according to which KPK not only had fewer cases of child molestation than Islamabad (population 30 million vs 2 million) but in absolute terms, it only had 141 cases. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the social setup in Pakistan would take about half a second to dismiss those figures as a joke.

    Off course this all assumes that a comparison between this specific type of case in Pakistan (child raped, murdered and body dumped) is comparable to cases of pedophilia in the west, a premise I reject emphatically. While there are pedophiles in Pakistan and pedophilia is a major issue, cases like the Zainab case are not the work of pedophiles. This is not an isolated occurrence either since we've had at least five or six more such cases reported in the last three days alone. Name one country where this is a daily occurrence?


    If religion was the cause of it in Pakistan, which you have very reluctantly hinted at, whats the cause for such huge numbers in these western countries?
    I didn't "very reluctantly hint" at religion being one of the causes (not the only one but the main one), I made that claim in very strong terms and I stand by it. The specific kind of cases we're talking about here are not, as previously explained, the work of pedophiles so I don't see why you'd compare the two. Pedophilia is a mental illness that exists in both Pakistan and the west, as it does in every country on earth, but this spate of rape-murder-dump cases is not the work of pedophiles. Nowhere in the world is there precedent for pedophiles operating in this manner.

    You have talked about violence not being a trait generally shown by Paedophiles but which sample are you considering here? You also have to look at socio-cultural aspects and how strong an influence the social mores and norms have on a child molestor (Paedophile or just sex starved). Other factors like whether the molestor knows the family of victim or not also plays a role in determining his eventual actions. There is no certain way to determine what the motivation behind such an attack is unless we know intimate details.
    If we were talking about a handful of attacks, that would be true. What we're dealing with is an epidemic of a very specific kind of crime that is taking place in a very specific kind of society. Pakistan is one of very few countries where sexually mature adults remain celibate till marriage as a rule. Pakistan is also one of very few countries that actively enforces this. In this regard, Pakistan is decidedly abnormal since this level of stringency is uncommon even in other Muslim countries. The closest culture to Pakistan's in this regard is India and that is another hub of sexual violence. That children don't get targeted there as much as in Pakistan reflects the religious differences between the two countries, Pakistan being one where children are viewed as legitimate sexual objects on account of the religious makeup of Pakistan's population.

    In my opinion, this is a social reality which exists everywhere. Its not right to solely blame religion for it in Pakistan.
    Pedophilia is. The kill-rape-dump thing isn't "a social reality that exists everywhere". Name one country where it happens as frequently as Pakistan, and just to make things easy for you, you don't have to account for unreported cases.

    Like all other places Pakistan has categories of child molestors :

    1 Ultra Religious or even Non- religious folk who want to go by examples which took place thousands of years ago to prove their actions right. Ultra religious people genuinely feel they are right while the non-religious just use religion as an excuse.

    2 People with Mental problems related to Paedophilia who hide behind religion.

    3 Simple Paedophiles who dont use religion, and know what they are doing is wrong.

    4 Simply sex starved individuals who think Children can be soft targets.

    I sincerely dont think religion would play a bigger role in Pakistan as compared to most other countries in such cases. Its a global reality and needs to be tackled by strong laws.
    The whole point is that the 4th category is so outsized in Pakistan compared to pretty much any other country in the world because of the social norms in Pakistan which, in turn, are a product of religious dogma that has some pretty ridiculous rules governing sexual behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    So at least the law , on paper, protects girls from it.

    Like we discussed in the other thread, many problems including Child marriage is a south asian problem, not just a muslim problem in particular. Its shameful that in this day and age it is still prevelant in such huge numbers.
    On paper means nothing, and besides Pakistan manages to discriminate between the two sexes even on paper with the two different legal ages for the two sexes. South Asian culture is one of the most religion heavy in the world so you can't separate religion and culture. Even with that in mind, child marriage is more popular in parts of South Asia where Muslims make up a larger percentage of the population. Religion's role in encouraging viewing children as sexual objects isn't even limited to South Asia. The US is another country where child marriage is a major issue and all the major hubs happen to be in the most religious parts of the country, mostly in the South.


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    You have made some interesting claims.
    I just looked up a couple of stats and found that in 2012 around 67000 cases of child molestation were reported in USA and according the following report , 1 in 35 men in England and wales show paedophilic tendencies.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...cy-claims.html

    The numbers are staggering. I mean even if you multiply the numbers of such reported cases in pakistan by 20 , it wont match the numbers in these countries.

    If religion was the cause of it in Pakistan, which you have very reluctantly hinted at, whats the cause for such huge numbers in these western countries?

    You have talked about violence not being a trait generally shown by Paedophiles but which sample are you considering here? You also have to look at socio-cultural aspects and how strong an influence the social mores and norms have on a child molestor (Paedophile or just sex starved). Other factors like whether the molestor knows the family of victim or not also plays a role in determining his eventual actions. There is no certain way to determine what the motivation behind such an attack is unless we know intimate details.

    In my opinion, this is a social reality which exists everywhere. Its not right to solely blame religion for it in Pakistan.

    Like all other places Pakistan has categories of child molestors :

    1 Ultra Religious or even Non- religious folk who want to go by examples which took place thousands of years ago to prove their actions right. Ultra religious people genuinely feel they are right while the non-religious just use religion as an excuse.

    2 People with Mental problems related to Paedophilia who hide behind religion.

    3 Simple Paedophiles who dont use religion, and know what they are doing is wrong.

    4 Simply sex starved individuals who think Children can be soft targets.

    I sincerely dont think religion would play a bigger role in Pakistan as compared to most other countries in such cases. Its a global reality and needs to be tackled by strong laws.
    I'll say the same thing which I said to dear Captain, religion is not the cause for paedophilia. Religion however IS the reason why sex against minors isn't frowned upon at considering the amount of marriages involving minors under 16. Islam considers anyone an adult who's passed puberty, whether that be at 12 or 16. When in reality a person is still a child. That's a fact and nothing to do with whiny posters here who will take this as anti-religion, if I am wrong then please correct me and I will take this statement back.

    Also please don't compare West to Pakistan, even groping an underage girl in the West or even sending underage girls adult texts will get you: jail, life on the sex offender list, barred from any sort of proper employment, you cannot live in the same house as anyone under the age of 18 even your own children, you cannot be near anywhere where there are kids and you have to report to the police everytime you travel out of the city for the rest of your life. In the USA its even worse.

    Tell me if its the same in Pakistan and I will shut my mouth and leave the thread.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    So at least the law , on paper, protects girls from it.

    Like we discussed in the other thread, many problems including Child marriage is a south asian problem, not just a muslim problem in particular. Its shameful that in this day and age it is still prevelant in such huge numbers.
    And also well done on being a poster who can debate without throwing around slurs or labels on others, even if I disagree with you. Others ought to read your posts and learn a thing or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    I'm surprised that after the Zainab incident, many politicians have went on to blame parenting. Even though it has been mentioned that 8-10 rape/murder cases have taken place in one area alone. This itself shows how society is unsafe.

    Now, who to blame here?


    Politicians, who have not bothered to keep society safe, and always over looking and letting criminals on the loose just because of their links?

    Or

    Parents, who cannot apply helicopter parenting due to other burdens of life?
    The society in general, ie everyone.

    Pakistanis like to blame everyone else... except their own.

    For example, nearly every Pakistani complains about the endemic corruption that pervades every aspect of society.

    And yet..

    I'm betting that every single Pakistani has, or is close to someone who has, given or taken bribes.
    It may be on a very small scale, such as slipping a few rupees to a policeman to ignore a traffic violation, or greasing the palm of a junior clerk to get something expedited, or a teacher being presented with a 'gift' for helping a child get admission, or handing a few £'s/$'s to a Customs official to look the other way and let you through without charging Customs Duty ..... the list is endless. All of the aforementioned is corruption.

    Sometime ago, a poster on this forum was ranting about corruption. He let it slip that his family regularly paid off junior govt. officials, for expediting building permits, or not checking the tax forms, etc. He claimed it was necessary to make sure his family's business thrived. And guess what? Despite ranting about the endemic corruption, he refused to accept that what his family was doing was also corruption.

    Every Pakistani needs to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves "Am I guilty of the very same corrupt practices that I am complaining of?"


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    It all starts with the police actually catching perpetrators of a crime. In the West someone will think 10 times before commiting a crime because he knows he will not get away with it that easily as compared to someone in Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Here's the problem with comparing statistics on sex crimes from the UK and US with statistics from Pakistan: Pakistani statistics aren't worth the paper they're printed on. As a general rule of thumb, more conservative societies report sex crimes less frequently than liberal ones. In Pakistan, that problem is further compounded because a rape victim can end up in jail for ten years if she fails to produce four pious male Muslim witnesses. I can confirm that this still happens because it happened only a few months ago. Statistically, a woman in Sweden is more likely to be sexually assaulted than a woman in Pakistan or India (another Pakistan type country) but that doesn't mean that a woman in Sweden is actually more likely to be sexually assaulted.

    The same applies to child rape which is reported even less frequently and the frequency decreases the more conservative the region. This much has been established in a previous post that had official statistics, according to which KPK not only had fewer cases of child molestation than Islamabad (population 30 million vs 2 million) but in absolute terms, it only had 141 cases. Anyone even vaguely familiar with the social setup in Pakistan would take about half a second to dismiss those figures as a joke.

    Off course this all assumes that a comparison between this specific type of case in Pakistan (child raped, murdered and body dumped) is comparable to cases of pedophilia in the west, a premise I reject emphatically. While there are pedophiles in Pakistan and pedophilia is a major issue, cases like the Zainab case are not the work of pedophiles. This is not an isolated occurrence either since we've had at least five or six more such cases reported in the last three days alone. Name one country where this is a daily occurrence?



    I didn't "very reluctantly hint" at religion being one of the causes (not the only one but the main one), I made that claim in very strong terms and I stand by it. The specific kind of cases we're talking about here are not, as previously explained, the work of pedophiles so I don't see why you'd compare the two. Pedophilia is a mental illness that exists in both Pakistan and the west, as it does in every country on earth, but this spate of rape-murder-dump cases is not the work of pedophiles. Nowhere in the world is there precedent for pedophiles operating in this manner.


    If we were talking about a handful of attacks, that would be true. What we're dealing with is an epidemic of a very specific kind of crime that is taking place in a very specific kind of society. Pakistan is one of very few countries where sexually mature adults remain celibate till marriage as a rule. Pakistan is also one of very few countries that actively enforces this. In this regard, Pakistan is decidedly abnormal since this level of stringency is uncommon even in other Muslim countries. The closest culture to Pakistan's in this regard is India and that is another hub of sexual violence. That children don't get targeted there as much as in Pakistan reflects the religious differences between the two countries, Pakistan being one where children are viewed as legitimate sexual objects on account of the religious makeup of Pakistan's population.


    Pedophilia is. The kill-rape-dump thing isn't "a social reality that exists everywhere". Name one country where it happens as frequently as Pakistan, and just to make things easy for you, you don't have to account for unreported cases.


    The whole point is that the 4th category is so outsized in Pakistan compared to pretty much any other country in the world because of the social norms in Pakistan which, in turn, are a product of religious dogma that has some pretty ridiculous rules governing sexual behavior.



    On paper means nothing, and besides Pakistan manages to discriminate between the two sexes even on paper with the two different legal ages for the two sexes. South Asian culture is one of the most religion heavy in the world so you can't separate religion and culture. Even with that in mind, child marriage is more popular in parts of South Asia where Muslims make up a larger percentage of the population. Religion's role in encouraging viewing children as sexual objects isn't even limited to South Asia. The US is another country where child marriage is a major issue and all the major hubs happen to be in the most religious parts of the country, mostly in the South.
    Only one problem with the general logic of the post, that it's primarily the fault of religion in Pakistan. Saudi Arabia is even stricter in religious terms. And yet .....


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Only one problem with the general logic of the post, that it's primarily the fault of religion in Pakistan. Saudi Arabia is even stricter in religious terms. And yet .....
    The country where a preacher raped and tortured to death his five year old daughter and then walked free after paying blood money to... himself I guess? Great legal system, clearly all is well there. I'm sure if there were any sex crimes there, they would be well documented and publicized because that's precisely how that country works. Oh wait!
    Last edited by DW44; 13th January 2018 at 19:12.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    The country where a preacher raped and tortured to death his five year old daughter and then walked free after paying blood money to... himself I guess? Great legal system, clearly all is well there. I'm sure if there were any sex crimes there, they would be well documented and publicized because that's precisely how that country works. Oh wait!
    You seem to be making out that similar crimes don't take place in other countries.

    Saudi Arabia, as a society, has many faults, there's no doubt about that. And of course, like every other country in the world, it has it's fair share of paedophiles, rapists, sex-perverts, murderers et al. All I can say is that, in terms of crimes (reported or not), in general, Saudi Arabia is safer than the countries of the sub-continent, and even parts of the USA and some European countries. Unlike you I suspect, I can speak from having lived/worked in Saudi Arabia, the USA and various European countries.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The society in general, ie everyone.

    Pakistanis like to blame everyone else... except their own.

    For example, nearly every Pakistani complains about the endemic corruption that pervades every aspect of society.

    And yet..

    I'm betting that every single Pakistani has, or is close to someone who has, given or taken bribes.
    It may be on a very small scale, such as slipping a few rupees to a policeman to ignore a traffic violation, or greasing the palm of a junior clerk to get something expedited, or a teacher being presented with a 'gift' for helping a child get admission, or handing a few £'s/$'s to a Customs official to look the other way and let you through without charging Customs Duty ..... the list is endless. All of the aforementioned is corruption.

    Sometime ago, a poster on this forum was ranting about corruption. He let it slip that his family regularly paid off junior govt. officials, for expediting building permits, or not checking the tax forms, etc. He claimed it was necessary to make sure his family's business thrived. And guess what? Despite ranting about the endemic corruption, he refused to accept that what his family was doing was also corruption.

    Every Pakistani needs to look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves "Am I guilty of the very same corrupt practices that I am complaining of?"
    my view on corruption is that, you cannot stop a common person from committing it.

    Corruption doesnt finish if we take a stand, corruption finishes or reduces when the measures are strict.

    Everywhere in the world people dont wana pay taxes, in country like Pakistan its easy to exploit thse loopholes, in west its not, due to laws.

    but i could be wrong, but thats just my view


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    You seem to be making out that similar crimes don't take place in other countries.

    Saudi Arabia, as a society, has many faults, there's no doubt about that. And of course, like every other country in the world, it has it's fair share of paedophiles, rapists, sex-perverts, murderers et al. All I can say is that, in terms of crimes (reported or not), in general, Saudi Arabia is safer than the countries of the sub-continent, and even parts of the USA and some European countries. Unlike you I suspect, I can speak from having lived/worked in Saudi Arabia, the USA and various European countries.
    Yes, well I hope you'll excuse me for not finding that particularly impressive. Saudi Arabia is an information blackhole when it comes to statistics on sex crimes and whatever little is available in the way of official figures, has questionably credibility since it's a country that (a) penalizes victims of rape for reporting it and (b) Many acts that would be defined as sex crimes even in places like Pakistan are not recognized as such under Saudi law. Statistics on sex crimes from any country where victims run the risk of being prosecuted and charged with a crime if they report their rape are about as credible as Saudi Arabia heading the UNHCR. That is something I know from living in another country where reporting rape can land you in jail for ten years. In Saudi Arabia, it's worse since they use corporal punishment.


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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major View Post
    my view on corruption is that, you cannot stop a common person from committing it.

    Corruption doesnt finish if we take a stand, corruption finishes or reduces when the measures are strict.

    Everywhere in the world people dont wana pay taxes, in country like Pakistan its easy to exploit thse loopholes, in west its not, due to laws.

    but i could be wrong, but thats just my view
    I disagree. A society makes up rules and laws because the vast majority of the population agrees with them, wants them and is willing to follow them, and the rules/laws then are there to control and/punish the few that go against the views and wishes of the majority. The role of the law enforcers (police and judiciary) is to carry out the will of the majority (who made the rules/laws).

    However, as per my previous post, if the majority of the populace is, to varying degrees, involved in corruption (as per my examples in the previous post), then even the most honest and vigilant police force and judiciary doesn't have a cat's chance in hell of making an iota of difference.

    The other day, after a clothes shopping spree, upon arriving home and checking the receipts, I noticed that I had not been charged for one (expensive) item of clothing for one of my kids. I drove 10 miles back to the store and actually had to persuade the store manager to charge me for the cost of the item (he didn't want to charge me as a sign of gratitude and honesty, but I insisted). I did not want to have my child wearing clothing that had not been properly paid for. I am not unique in this type of thinking. Most of my friends and neighbours think along similar lines and would have done the same. So it's not a question of enforcement, but of a society's attitudes and values.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Yes, well I hope you'll excuse me for not finding that particularly impressive. Saudi Arabia is an information blackhole when it comes to statistics on sex crimes and whatever little is available in the way of official figures, has questionably credibility since it's a country that (a) penalizes victims of rape for reporting it and (b) Many acts that would be defined as sex crimes even in places like Pakistan are not recognized as such under Saudi law. Statistics on sex crimes from any country where victims run the risk of being prosecuted and charged with a crime if they report their rape are about as credible as Saudi Arabia heading the UNHCR. That is something I know from living in another country where reporting rape can land you in jail for ten years. In Saudi Arabia, it's worse since they use corporal punishment.
    As I said,
    All I can say is that, in terms of crimes (reported or not), in general, Saudi Arabia is safer than the countries of the sub-continent, and even parts of the USA and some European countries. Unlike you I suspect, I can speak from having lived/worked in Saudi Arabia, the USA and various European countries. Unlike you I suspect, I can speak from having lived/worked in Saudi Arabia, the USA and various European countries.
    You say
    Saudi Arabia is an information blackhole when it comes to statistics on sex crimes and whatever little is available in the way of official figures,
    So if it's an "information blackhole" as you state, and since I doubt you've ever been there, I take it that there's no basis whatsoever for the claims you're making, considering that, obviously, by definition, there cannot be any reliable statistics from an "information blackhole".

    In my case however, having lived/worked there for a number of years (along with the same in the USA and various European countries)..... I rest my case.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    As I said,
    With no substantiating evidence to support your claim.
    You say
    So if it's an "information blackhole" as you state, and since I doubt you've ever been there, I take it that there's no basis whatsoever for the claims you're making, considering that, obviously, by definition, there cannot be any reliable statistics from an "information blackhole".

    In my case however, having lived/worked there for a number of years (along with the same in the USA and various European countries)..... I rest my case.
    I'm not making any claims. You are suggesting that it is safer than this country and that, something I contend you're not qualified to do since there's no statistics to support (or, for that matter, disprove) those claims absent which, you are not really qualified to claim definitively that it is safer than any other place just because you lived there. In any case, whether or not it's safer in general is irrelevant since this thread is concerned specifically with sex crimes against minor and since Saudi Arabia has no laws concerning statutory rape, official crime statistics concerning that particular type of crime belong in the garbage bin anyway.


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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    With no substantiating evidence to support your claim.


    I'm not making any claims. You are suggesting that it is safer than this country and that, something I contend you're not qualified to do since there's no statistics to support (or, for that matter, disprove) those claims absent which, you are not really qualified to claim definitively that it is safer than any other place just because you lived there. In any case, whether or not it's safer in general is irrelevant since this thread is concerned specifically with sex crimes against minor and since Saudi Arabia has no laws concerning statutory rape, official crime statistics concerning that particular type of crime belong in the garbage bin anyway.
    And yet you, with no knowledge whatsoever of Saudi Arabia (- actually have you ever even been outside of Pakistan never mind to Saudi Arabia?), you are an expert on Saudi Arabian society and Saudi laws.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Here's the problem with comparing statistics on sex crimes from the UK and US with statistics from Pakistan: Pakistani statistics aren't worth the paper they're printed on. As a general rule of thumb, more conservative societies report sex crimes less frequently than liberal ones.
    I think i took that into accouny by saying that even if you multiply Pakistani number by 20, the numbers are still less than than of USA. Unless you mean these crimes take place more than 20 times in Pakistan as compared to USA.

    In Pakistan, that problem is further compounded because a rape victim can end up in jail for ten years if she fails to produce four pious male Muslim witnesses. I can confirm that this still happens because it happened only a few months ago.
    I have no knowledge of such a thing. Can you or any other Pakistani substantiatiate this claim? Is it required by law or something?

    .

    Off course this all assumes that a comparison between this specific type of case in Pakistan (child raped, murdered and body dumped) is comparable to cases of pedophilia in the west, a premise I reject emphatically. While there are pedophiles in Pakistan and pedophilia is a major issue, cases like the Zainab case are not the work of pedophiles. This is not an isolated occurrence either since we've had at least five or six more such cases reported in the last three days alone. Name one country where this is a daily occurrence?
    There is no such stats which compares child rape and murder numbers of one country with another. At least i couldnt find any. You have to look for cases individually to know about them. Just because you live in Pakistan, you hear more of such cases in Pakistan and not in other countries.


    I didn't "very reluctantly hint" at religion being one of the causes (not the only one but the main one), I made that claim in very strong terms and I stand by it. The specific kind of cases we're talking about here are not, as previously explained, the work of pedophiles so I don't see why you'd compare the two. Pedophilia is a mental illness that exists in both Pakistan and the west, as it does in every country on earth, but this spate of rape-murder-dump cases is not the work of pedophiles. Nowhere in the world is there precedent for pedophiles operating in this manner.
    I didnt say Paedophilia is the only reason here. I said there are many categories and i mentioned them all. You are saying that the main reason is religion and religion alone..there is no way you would be able to prove it because its just an assumption you are making based on your understanding of the society. However you are also reluctant to acknowledge that your claims might be too general. People from the same society following the same religion are rioting against such crimes.

    Your last claim about Paedophiles not operating like it is again based on localisation bias because you mostly hear about such crimes in Pakistan alone. Paedophiles do kill and murder children world over.
    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.dai...hang-tree.html

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.e...girl-Yemen/amp

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.mir...3-10187848.amp

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.mir...d-10148134.amp

    http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/au...5b5f6105814ff9

    Like i said, as painful as it is, such news arent generally considered of international importance and hence you dont hear about it in Pakistan when it happens in other countries.

    If we were talking about a handful of attacks, that would be true. What we're dealing with is an epidemic of a very specific kind of crime that is taking place in a very specific kind of society. Pakistan is one of very few countries where sexually mature adults remain celibate till marriage as a rule. Pakistan is also one of very few countries that actively enforces this. In this regard, Pakistan is decidedly abnormal since this level of stringency is uncommon even in other Muslim countries. The closest culture to Pakistan's in this regard is India and that is another hub of sexual violence. That children don't get targeted there as much as in Pakistan reflects the religious differences between the two countries, Pakistan being one where children are viewed as legitimate sexual objects on account of the religious makeup of Pakistan's population.
    Please try to understand the ground realities of rural India which is 70% of Indian population. Its the same as Pakistan. Child rape is even used as a punishment in Khaat panchayats of India. So when you say Indians are any better in this regard because of their religion, you are again showing the localization bias.

    As a matter of fact, there are many such societies where such strict taboos exist but if we be fair, it all comes down to the law and order situation and how strongly laws are implemented.


    Pedophilia is. The kill-rape-dump thing isn't "a social reality that exists everywhere". Name one country where it happens as frequently as Pakistan, and just to make things easy for you, you don't have to account for unreported cases.
    I tried to look for rape and murder stats but didnt find any such stats. If you could help out here by comparing Pakistan's child rape and murder numbers with other countries , it would be great for the discussion.


    The whole point is that the 4th category is so outsized in Pakistan compared to pretty much any other country in the world because of the social norms in Pakistan which, in turn, are a product of religious dogma that has some pretty ridiculous rules governing sexual behavior.
    Like i said, its just an assumption at the end of the day. If the social norms dont condemn it strongly enough, why do these people even kill the children then? The society wont come after them strongly according to your assumptions. The fact is, its a crime and society at large knows it. Even these criminals know it. The acceptance of Child marriage as okay is a big problem but sexual offences against children arent something which are accepted by the society and people would go as far as burning down the cities for it as is proved by Zainab's case.


    On paper means nothing, and besides Pakistan manages to discriminate between the two sexes even on paper with the two different legal ages for the two sexes.
    Its same in India and many other countries of the world.

    South Asian culture is one of the most religion heavy in the world so you can't separate religion and culture. Even with that in mind, child marriage is more popular in parts of South Asia where Muslims make up a larger percentage of the population. Religion's role in encouraging viewing children as sexual objects isn't even limited to South Asia. The US is another country where child marriage is a major issue and all the major hubs happen to be in the most religious parts of the country, mostly in the South.
    Yes religion has played a big role in promoting child marriages. You are wrong though by saying religion views children as sexual objects. The issue is that religion reduces the age of considering someone a child considerably. That was okay given the time period when these religions emerged. At that time boys and girls used to get married very early and religion just went along with it. Ultra Religious folk need to understand that its not a compulsion to marry at a young age, and that this is a different era now and we have to act according to the current norms and scientific knowledge.

    We also need to acknowledge that in many of these religious parts of the world, people just use the religion for the evil which resides in them. Even though they dont really believe in all religious practices themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    I'll say the same thing which I said to dear Captain, religion is not the cause for paedophilia. Religion however IS the reason why sex against minors isn't frowned upon at considering the amount of marriages involving minors under 16. Islam considers anyone an adult who's passed puberty, whether that be at 12 or 16. When in reality a person is still a child. That's a fact and nothing to do with whiny posters here who will take this as anti-religion, if I am wrong then please correct me and I will take this statement back.
    Religion allows (not a compulsion) marriage of children when they attain puberty. It might be as early as 9 or 10 with the permission of parents (this is important to acknowledge). And yes that is a big big problem in today's world because now our norms and scientific knowledge has changed for the better. But Religion doesnt allow sexual offences against children, a fact that you guys arent considering. It is simply treated as rape and rapists have to be punished. Doesnt it again come down to country's law and order situation?

    Also please don't compare West to Pakistan, even groping an underage girl in the West or even sending underage girls adult texts will get you: jail, life on the sex offender list, barred from any sort of proper employment, you cannot live in the same house as anyone under the age of 18 even your own children, you cannot be near anywhere where there are kids and you have to report to the police everytime you travel out of the city for the rest of your life. In the USA its even worse.
    Exactly. It comes down to Laws like i said earlier. Is religion stopping anyone from creating strong laws to punish child rapists? Yes it might hinder creation of laws which prevent child marriage. But not rapes. And Pakistan already has 18 years of age set for girl marriage anyway. Its a matter of implementing it strongly. Everything else is heresay and assumptions based on personal calculations.

    Tell me if its the same in Pakistan and I will shut my mouth and leave the thread.
    No its not the same.

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    Bad parenting increases chances of your children becoming criminals who in future indulge in such horrific acts..

    A parents job is to give their children education and a broad mindset willing to accept a change from your views.. Unfortunately in our part of the world a child is brought up with the mindset that any view which does not agree with our view is wrong.. E.G. a girl wearing short skirt is considered wrong in a lot of Indian households so the children when they grow up consider girls as objects rather than humans, and politicians who support such views are not lambasted but are supported..

    In short it’s a vicious circle from parenting to mindset of society to governments to crime and rise in crime everything is inter related..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Religion allows (not a compulsion) marriage of children when they attain puberty. It might be as early as 9 or 10 with the permission of parents (this is important to acknowledge). And yes that is a big big problem in today's world because now our norms and scientific knowledge has changed for the better. But Religion doesnt allow sexual offences against children, a fact that you guys arent considering. It is simply treated as rape and rapists have to be punished. Doesnt it again come down to country's law and order situation?



    Exactly. It comes down to Laws like i said earlier. Is religion stopping anyone from creating strong laws to punish child rapists? Yes it might hinder creation of laws which prevent child marriage. But not rapes. And Pakistan already has 18 years of age set for girl marriage anyway. Its a matter of implementing it strongly. Everything else is heresay and assumptions based on personal calculations.



    No its not the same.
    So shouldn’t Quran be updated now? Surely a religion should be flexible in its belief and with today’s scientific advancement the verse which says anyone who has reached nahi puberty CAN be married off by their parents should be changed?

    I say this because a lot of people are hardcore who use these verses and then indulge in practises of marrying someone who is 13 or 14, the parents of the girl are either poor or think it’s right to marry off their daughter at such an age because of the verse above in Quran.

    If such a verse is not in Holy Quran then please accept my apologies and wherever this specific verse is mentioned should be deleted/updated on there..

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_gamer007 View Post
    So shouldn’t Quran be updated now? Surely a religion should be flexible in its belief and with today’s scientific advancement the verse which says anyone who has reached nahi puberty CAN be married off by their parents should be changed?

    I say this because a lot of people are hardcore who use these verses and then indulge in practises of marrying someone who is 13 or 14, the parents of the girl are either poor or think it’s right to marry off their daughter at such an age because of the verse above in Quran.

    If such a verse is not in Holy Quran then please accept my apologies and wherever this specific verse is mentioned should be deleted/updated on there..
    The Quran doesnt set a specific age for marriage at all. All it says is that the 2 people should be compatible and must have attained puberty. The puberty part had to be mentioned because imagine if it wasnt even mentioned. People would marry even before puberty. Many people refer to the Prophetic traditions to justify marriage of minors but we have to understand that was a completely different era and it was more of a culture of that time which allowed early marriage of girls. Now any sane person would understand that compatibility also changes with the era you live in and the norms of the world. Even in the Prophetic traditions there is a lot of confusion and disagreements on the age of women where they were married.

    Being realistic, Updating Quran isnt possible. Would it be considered word of God if it is updated by Men? Muslims wouldnt allow it anyway. What can be done is that stronger laws should be made by muslim nations to cover general issues like Child marriage which is not a neccessity of religion. Its not some sort of compulsion that you just have to marry at 12 or something, so laws can be made to stop such things in the context of current world's norms. Infact as other posters have mentioned, Pakistan has a set the age at 18. Its just a matter of implementing the laws which is not happenjng. If you dont strongly implement the laws you made, nothing will improve no matter how many books you update. In rural India, the problem of child marriage is just as big as Pakistan. Which Hindu book can we change there? Fact of the matter is that you cant update a book and then depend on the benevolence of man. The state has been given coercive power for a reason. To make laws and implement them.
    Last edited by Madplayer; 14th January 2018 at 11:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Religion allows (not a compulsion) marriage of children when they attain puberty. It might be as early as 9 or 10 with the permission of parents (this is important to acknowledge). And yes that is a big big problem in today's world because now our norms and scientific knowledge has changed for the better. But Religion doesnt allow sexual offences against children, a fact that you guys arent considering. It is simply treated as rape and rapists have to be punished. Doesnt it again come down to country's law and order situation?



    Exactly. It comes down to Laws like i said earlier. Is religion stopping anyone from creating strong laws to punish child rapists? Yes it might hinder creation of laws which prevent child marriage. But not rapes. And Pakistan already has 18 years of age set for girl marriage anyway. Its a matter of implementing it strongly. Everything else is heresay and assumptions based on personal calculations.



    No its not the same.
    I am sorry but the bold bit is exactly my point. It doesn't matter if the child attains puberty at 9 or 10 or 11 or if the parents allow a marriage or not. A marriage with a 9 year old child who has attained puberty is STILL child abuse as the 9 year is still a child. And religion condones it. That was my point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    I am sorry but the bold bit is exactly my point. It doesn't matter if the child attains puberty at 9 or 10 or 11 or if the parents allow a marriage or not. A marriage with a 9 year old child who has attained puberty is STILL child abuse as the 9 year is still a child. And religion condones it. That was my point.
    Yes religion doesnt prohibit it in clear terms and yes it is child abuse. My point is clear, it is allowed but its not a requirement. So laws can be made to set a minimum limit as per the current norms of civilized world. Pakistan has placed 18 as the minimum age of marriage. Why not implement the laws strongly? Eventually, its a law and order problem rather than a purely religious one. It stems from religion but exists because of poorly implemented laws.

    Secondly , the point i made was mainly about child rapes and murders. Religion doesn't allow child rapes and murders like what happened in Kasur, does it? Its a crime and religion or no religion, everyone admits what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    Yes religion doesnt prohibit it in clear terms and yes it is child abuse. My point is clear, it is allowed but its not a requirement. So laws can be made to set a minimum limit as per the current norms of civilized world. Pakistan has placed 18 as the minimum age of marriage. Why not implement the laws strongly? Eventually, its a law and order problem rather than a purely religious one. It stems from religion but exists because of poorly implemented laws.

    Secondly , the point i made was mainly about child rapes and murders. Religion doesn't allow child rapes and murders like what happened in Kasur, does it? Its a crime and religion or no religion, everyone admits what it is.
    Fair points re: bold.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    I think i took that into accouny by saying that even if you multiply Pakistani number by 20, the numbers are still less than than of USA. Unless you mean these crimes take place more than 20 times in Pakistan as compared to USA.
    Not really. Unless there's a solid rationale behind that 20 times figure, for all we know it might be the mother of all underestimates. Rape is underreported even in places like the US (only around 31%) despite it being much easier to report it there compared to Pakistan so I wouldn't be surprised if the corresponding figure for Pakistan are under 5%. We already have a reference with the KPK child abuse figures - 141 reported cases in 2016. It would not be unrealistic to conjecture that those numbers may not even make up 1% of the actual cases if you're familiar with the scale on which child abuse takes place in KPK.


    I have no knowledge of such a thing. Can you or any other Pakistani substantiatiate this claim? Is it required by law or something?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...an.theobserver
    According to a recent report by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, a woman is gang-raped every eight hours in the country. However, because of social taboos, discriminatory laws and the treatment of victims by police, campaigners believe the real figure is far higher. Women who report their rapists remain more likely to go to prison themselves than see justice, so most cases are never reported. Women who are raped can face legal difficulties anywhere in the world, but human rights groups remain particularly concerned over Pakistan's record. Their alarm is centred on enforcement of the 'Hudood ordinances', a complex set of Koranic laws whose name is derived from hud meaning 'punishment'. Similar sharia laws have existed in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Sudan for centuries, but Pakistan's were enacted by former President Zia ul-Haq only in 1979, as part of his radical attempt to 'Islamicise' the country.

    The legislation has always been full of legal ambiguities, and none more so than the Zina ordinance which deals with adultery, premarital sex and rape. The maximum punishment for adultery is stoning to death for married people and 100 lashes for the unwed.
    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1420868...lled-sold-off/
    Four men were booked in Rajanpur on Saturday for their involvement in a Panchayat (unofficial village court) declaring a teenage girl, who was allegedly raped by a relative, a ‘Kari’.

    The 19-year-old girl was ordered to be either killed or sold off on charges of adultery levelled against her, the area’s police said.
    .......
    The police said the four men had absconded and teams had been dispatched to the surrounding areas to arrest them.
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1016271
    A series of events in the past few weeks have again highlighted the injustices being committed against women in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Recently, the three accused of raping an 18-year old woman at Jinnah’s Mausoleum were set free by a court in Karachi. The court refused to entertain the DNA evidence, which reportedly proved the guilt of the accused, and gave the accused the benefit of the doubt because the victim could not produce four eyewitnesses to the rape. Weeks later, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) decreed that the DNA evidence in the absence of four righteous men as witnesses to rape is not sufficient for conviction under Islamic law.
    Also keep in mind that a significant share of rape cases go to tribal courts which have ambiguous legal status but their decisions are rarely challenged and often enforced. Earlier this year two 15 year olds were electrocuted to death in Karachi of all places on a tribal court's orders because they were suspected of planning to elope.

    There is no such stats which compares child rape and murder numbers of one country with another. At least i couldnt find any. You have to look for cases individually to know about them. Just because you live in Pakistan, you hear more of such cases in Pakistan and not in other countries.
    I have lived in four other countries so I have some frame of reference.

    I didnt say Paedophilia is the only reason here. I said there are many categories and i mentioned them all. You are saying that the main reason is religion and religion alone..there is no way you would be able to prove it because its just an assumption you are making based on your understanding of the society. However you are also reluctant to acknowledge that your claims might be too general. People from the same society following the same religion are rioting against such crimes.
    I did not say that religion alone is the main reason, I said it is one of the main reasons and I still stand by it. If you systematically deprive 211 million people the right to engage in sexual activity prior to marriage (for men, that can be a gap of up to 10 years or more between reaching sexual maturity and getting married), you will create a situation where you have need just 0.01% of them to act out this way, something that is not at all implausible, to have 6000 or more such people out there.


    Your last claim about Paedophiles not operating like it is again based on localisation bias because you mostly hear about such crimes in Pakistan alone. Paedophiles do kill and murder children world over.
    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.dai...hang-tree.html

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.e...girl-Yemen/amp

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.mir...3-10187848.amp

    https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.mir...d-10148134.amp

    http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/au...5b5f6105814ff9
    That's four cases from three different countries including one from 1986. I already said that such exceptions exist elsewhere but nowhere has it attained epidemic proportions like it has in Pakistan. We have had as many cases in the last one week alone.

    Like i said, as painful as it is, such news arent generally considered of international importance and hence you dont hear about it in Pakistan when it happens in other countries.
    Like I said, I have lived in four other countries and keep up with what's going on elsewhere. Nowhere are we seeing minors being raped, killed and their bodies dumped twice a week.

    [QUOTE]Please try to understand the ground realities of rural India which is 70% of Indian population. Its the same as Pakistan. Child rape is even used as a punishment in Khaat panchayats of India. So when you say Indians are any better in this regard because of their religion, you are again showing the localization bias.
    What I said was that child marriage is more prevalent in parts of the subcontinent with a higher Muslim population. That is statistically true with child marriage rates in India standing at 7% compared to 50% in Pakistan.

    As a matter of fact, there are many such societies where such strict taboos exist but if we be fair, it all comes down to the law and order situation and how strongly laws are implemented.
    So? That's just whataboutism. Other places having discriminatory laws does not mean Pakistan doing so is justified. As far as implementing the law is concerned, the opposition to that comes most often from a body that actually has the authority to vet laws for being Islamic enough before they're passed. A lot of the matters also end up being settled by tribal courts and panchayats with the collusion of law enforcement agencies.

    I tried to look for rape and murder stats but didnt find any such stats. If you could help out here by comparing Pakistan's child rape and murder numbers with other countries , it would be great for the discussion.
    Pakistan's statistics are worthless since the vast majority of cases in Pakistan are unreported and it's not uncommon for police to refuse to register a case even when someone tries to.


    Like i said, its just an assumption at the end of the day. If the social norms dont condemn it strongly enough, why do these people even kill the children then? The society wont come after them strongly according to your assumptions. The fact is, its a crime and society at large knows it. Even these criminals know it. The acceptance of Child marriage as okay is a big problem but sexual offences against children arent something which are accepted by the society and people would go as far as burning down the cities for it as is proved by Zainab's case.
    Sexual offences against children may not be accepted but the same society also suppresses discussion on the factors that lead to this particular kind of offence taking on such epic proportions in Pakistan because that, as I keep saying, involves asking uncomfortable questions about the religious and cultural norms of society which undoubtedly contribute to such cases.

    Yes religion has played a big role in promoting child marriages. You are wrong though by saying religion views children as sexual objects. The issue is that religion reduces the age of considering someone a child considerably. That was okay given the time period when these religions emerged. At that time boys and girls used to get married very early and religion just went along with it. Ultra Religious folk need to understand that its not a compulsion to marry at a young age, and that this is a different era now and we have to act according to the current norms and scientific knowledge.

    We also need to acknowledge that in many of these religious parts of the world, people just use the religion for the evil which resides in them. Even though they dont really believe in all religious practices themselves.
    If it deems them legally marriagable, by default it deems them as sexual object. If religion allows it, there will always be people who do it and especially in a place like Pakistan where it has become part of the culture (which, in turn, is heavily influenced by religion).

    Even if we assume what you say about people misusing religion is true, religion still deserves the blame for sanctioning such behavior. Many religions are conveniently ambiguous on such things in a manner that you can reasonably interpret them to justify acts of evil.


    Roses are red
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    Military and mullah
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW44 View Post
    Not really. Unless there's a solid rationale behind that 20 times figure, for all we know it might be the mother of all underestimates. Rape is underreported even in places like the US (only around 31%) despite it being much easier to report it there compared to Pakistan so I wouldn't be surprised if the corresponding figure for Pakistan are under 5%. We already have a reference with the KPK child abuse figures - 141 reported cases in 2016. It would not be unrealistic to conjecture that those numbers may not even make up 1% of the actual cases if you're familiar with the scale on which child abuse takes place in KPK.
    Lets be fair here, you are purely guessing without anything concrete to support your claims. If we can't believe the 20 times number (which actually would sound reasonable to most experts around the world) , then in no way can we consider your 5% or 1% estimate.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...an.theobserver

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1420868...lled-sold-off/

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1016271

    Also keep in mind that a significant share of rape cases go to tribal courts which have ambiguous legal status but their decisions are rarely challenged and often enforced. Earlier this year two 15 year olds were electrocuted to death in Karachi of all places on a tribal court's orders because they were suspected of planning to elope.
    I looked at these cases but i am confused. Please, can you, in clear terms tell me whether Pakistani Law asks women to produce 4 witnesses to prove they were raped. Yes Or No?

    About the tribal panchayats, that has very little to do with religion and more with culture of this region. Its the same in India as i mentioned earlier. What matters is how much autonomy the state gives them to handle matters. Generally in India, these panchayats are given limited autonomy to deal with civil matters only. Even then they pronounce ghastly punishments and get away with impunity.


    I have lived in four other countries so I have some frame of reference.
    Thats not convincing enough. Today a 15 yo kid in india was raped and killed. I can bet you didnt hear about it. I hear about it every other day and not once did i hear about such events in Pakistan before Zainab's case. And trust me i follow Pakistani news very closely.


    I did not say that religion alone is the main reason, I said it is one of the main reasons and I still stand by it. If you systematically deprive 211 million people the right to engage in sexual activity prior to marriage (for men, that can be a gap of up to 10 years or more between reaching sexual maturity and getting married), you will create a situation where you have need just 0.01% of them to act out this way, something that is not at all implausible, to have 6000 or more such people out there.
    You called religion THE MAIN REASON out of other lesser reasons. The rest of it is pure guess work. You are trying to establish a cause and effect relationship purely based on your imagination with no research or facts or stats to back your hypothesis. "If we starve people of sex, it will result in them sexually attacking kids". This is your hypothesis which has no foundation. What about the people in open societies who dont get to have sex because they are ugly, fat or poor or not attractive generally? Do they turn into sexual predators too because they are sex starved?

    That's four cases from three different countries including one from 1986. I already said that such exceptions exist elsewhere but nowhere has it attained epidemic proportions like it has in Pakistan. We have had as many cases in the last one week alone.
    Well what did you expect? Obviously these are individual cases which i quoted after a simple google search. I already said there are no child rape and murder stats available so we rely solely on digging up individual cases. You cant expect me to quote a 1000 cases individually. Its very convenient of you call these "exceptions" and call your claims the "epidemic" with literally no data to back it up.

    And i was refuting your claim where you clearly said there are no precedents of paedophiles killing their victims because they dont operate like that. From your post : "Nowhere in the world is there precedent for pedophiles operating in this manner." Period. Thats what you said.


    Like I said, I have lived in four other countries and keep up with what's going on elsewhere. Nowhere are we seeing minors being raped, killed and their bodies dumped twice a week.
    Already touched this.

    What I said was that child marriage is more prevalent in parts of the subcontinent with a higher Muslim population. That is statistically true with child marriage rates in India standing at 7% compared to 50% in Pakistan.
    Actually again, thats not what you said. You werent talking about child marriages so its pointless to quote child marriage stats. Let me remind you what you said :

    "The closest culture to Pakistan's in this regard is India and that is another hub of sexual violence. That children don't get targeted there as much as in Pakistan reflects the religious differences between the two countries, Pakistan being one where children are viewed as legitimate sexual objects on account of the religious makeup of Pakistan's population."

    One more point is noteworthy here. See how you reject Pakistan's statistics on anything unless it suits what you are saying (the 7% and 50% stat which you accept to be true).
    Now the onus is on you now to provide statistics which prove sexual offencez to be higher in Muslim parts of the subcontinent as compared to non-muslim ones.


    So? That's just whataboutism. Other places having discriminatory laws does not mean Pakistan doing so is justified. As far as implementing the law is concerned, the opposition to that comes most often from a body that actually has the authority to vet laws for being Islamic enough before they're passed. A lot of the matters also end up being settled by tribal courts and panchayats with the collusion of law enforcement agencies.
    I didnt say 2 wrongs make a right. I said those societies with taboos handle problems by implementing laws strongly.

    Is marriage age not fixed at 18 in Pakistan by law? Is it not a law and order problem then if child marriage takes place? Is child rape not an offence according to the Laws of "Islamic" state of Pakistan? If yes, isnt it a law and order problem if it happens?


    Pakistan's statistics are worthless since the vast majority of cases in Pakistan are unreported and it's not uncommon for police to refuse to register a case even when someone tries to.
    Already touched.

    Sexual offences against children may not be accepted but the same society also suppresses discussion on the factors that lead to this particular kind of offence taking on such epic proportions in Pakistan because that, as I keep saying, involves asking uncomfortable questions about the religious and cultural norms of society which undoubtedly contribute to such cases.
    Thats a different discussion. It would lead us to topics like poor education of masses in general and a conservative culture which doesnt allow us to ask questions openly. Yes this is a big problem too but lets get back to the main point that society doesnt accept sexual offences like rape against children notwithstanding child marriage to be a sexual offence against children (which in actuality it is)


    If it deems them legally marriagable, by default it deems them as sexual object. If religion allows it, there will always be people who do it and especially in a place like Pakistan where it has become part of the culture (which, in turn, is heavily influenced by religion).
    Thats a very shallow view of marriage you have there. Marriage in Islam isnt solely about sex. Religion allows it but doesnt force people to do it. On the other hand, The law doesnt allow it. The state should use its coercive power to implement laws IT has made.

    Even if we assume what you say about people misusing religion is true, religion still deserves the blame for sanctioning such behavior. Many religions are conveniently ambiguous on such things in a manner that you can reasonably interpret them to justify acts of evil.
    You mean religion is to be blamed for child marriage? Yes i would agree with it. Along with culture and tradition, religion has also played a big role in it. Having said that, Interpretations of individuals dont matter at all when a law has been placed by the state. Like i said in another post, this particular problem stems from religion but exists because established laws arent implemented strongly enough by the state.

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