Pakistan needs to induct another specialist spinner into the ODI team

[Abdullah719]

India's recent success with Chahal and Yadav makes me think that we need to move past this thought process of playing the likes of Imad and Nawaz simply because they can allegedly bat.

Shadab is good but we have recently tried too many spinners based on their batting abilities. The likes of Raza Hasan, Zafar Gohar (when fully fit), Mohammad Asghar, Ashiq Ali, Usama Mir, Mohammad Irfan and others should be in contention for spots.

A good wicket-taking spinner can completely change the game in the middle-overs.

Yeah I know the batting is a bigger concern but we need to constantly improve in every facet.

[Hasan123]

Good suggestion. This is the worst era of spin playing and we should look to take advantage of this. Unless teams are looking to go after Imad, his bowling isn't going to cause damage. Shadab and another attacking spinner would be a frightening prospect.

[Rayyman]

Unfortunately there is no talent left in Pakistan. The performances of Kuldeep and Chahal can not be replicated by the pie-chuckers and darters that are waiting in the ranks.

[BunnyRabbit]

Imad in my opinion is good for the role he is in. He can hold one end and is easily one of the most economical bowlers in the first 30 overs. He lengthens up the batting lineup as well, can hit a few while can also rotate the strike. I don't want Pakistan to go back to 2015 era where our tail would start at no.7 with Afridi. It used to be over for us as soon as the 5th wicket would fall. However, I do think we need to try a specialist spinner if there is someone good enough.

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

After Ajmal I haven't seen any spinner from Pakistan in ODI's who can run through batting lineups. May be they should give another chance to Yasir Shah and Raza Hasan.

[MMHS]

After Ajmal I haven't seen any spinner from Pakistan in ODI's who can run through batting lineups. May be they should give another chance to Yasir Shah and Raza Hasan.

The reason being hardly any genuine spinner has been given chance - I'll bet at any stake, had Shadab not been good with bat, he won't have debuted for PAK yet. And, I can't prove, but I can tell that had Yasir played for IND, he would have been as good a leggi, if not better than Chahal. You need Captains (& Coach) to use genuine spinners - this guy Arthur didn't play a 2nd spinner in UAE Test in a 4 bowler strategy, how do expect specialist spinners to flourish?

Besides, that English philosophy of "runs from spinner" is killing PAK game at every level - even that U19 Captain is absolutely nothing spinner, bowling 10 overs every time. And, this is the damage started by the last English Coach - one by one he dropped Saqline, Kaneria, Arshad from ODI team to promote Malik, MoHa, Arfidi ... for their batting.

For spin department, there should be enough in the tank - if you are bold enough.

[Hedz]

Yh no doubt the suggestions you gave we’re good ones
I don’t know how Asghar hasn’t been selected in limited overs cricket yet despite having two good seasons in the PSL

Usama Mir is good, but only room for one leg spinner atm, Asghar adds that slight variation in the bowling.

[hadi123]

You make a good point. I would keep Imad Wasim in the squad though as he has a role to play but maybe 2 a specialist left arm spinner as well may be benficial. I'd say Raza Hasan / Mohammad Asghar are top of the tree.

[Gubol123]

The reason being hardly any genuine spinner has been given chance - I'll bet at any stake, had Shadab not been good with bat, he won't have debuted for PAK yet. And, I can't prove, but I can tell that had Yasir played for IND, he would have been as good a leggi, if not better than Chahal. You need Captains (& Coach) to use genuine spinners - this guy Arthur didn't play a 2nd spinner in UAE Test in a 4 bowler strategy, how do expect specialist spinners to flourish?

Besides, that English philosophy of "runs from spinner" is killing PAK game at every level - even that U19 Captain is absolutely nothing spinner, bowling 10 overs every time. And, this is the damage started by the last English Coach - one by one he dropped Saqline, Kaneria, Arshad from ODI team to promote Malik, MoHa, Arfidi ... for their batting.

For spin department, there should be enough in the tank - if you are bold enough.

That is because, India always prefers specialists. Very few bits and pieces players survive in Indian setup. Whoever plays for India over a period of time will have to be good at one skill first and should be able to make the team solely on that skill. You can look at Jadeja and Axar patels and say they are bits and pieces players, but both are selected for their bowling and anything they bring with bat is a bonus. That is one more reason why Dhoni survives in this setup. Irrespective of his declining batting prowess, Dhoni remains the best wicketkeeper in India and arguably in the world. he gets on the team sheet solely on his wicket keeping skills. Same with Saha in tests. One recent exception is Pandya, but he is a fast bowling allrounder, something India has not handled for more than two decades. So i think they are still finding their way around how to handle him

This is one thing i feel England is lacking. they are picking way too many bits and pieces players or players. when the clutch time comes England will implode

[MMHS]

That is because, India always prefers specialists. Very few bits and pieces players survive in Indian setup. Whoever plays for India over a period of time will have to be good at one skill first and should be able to make the team solely on that skill. You can look at Jadeja and Axar patels and say they are bits and pieces players, but both are selected for their bowling and anything they bring with bat is a bonus. That is one more reason why Dhoni survives in this setup. Irrespective of his declining batting prowess, Dhoni remains the best wicketkeeper in India and arguably in the world. he gets on the team sheet solely on his wicket keeping skills. Same with Saha in tests. One recent exception is Pandya, but he is a fast bowling allrounder, something India has not handled for more than two decades. So i think they are still finding their way around how to handle him

This is one thing i feel England is lacking. they are picking way too many bits and pieces players or players. when the clutch time comes England will implode

True - cricket is a specialist game. All-rounders, not for the sake of it - those players don't deliver under pressure, because they are not good in any facet.

I have been arguing (you know whom) for long that in any format, I'll play 4 specialist bowlers with batting ability like Mcgrath, Murali, Donald & Asif ... (better if they can match bowling as well).

Developing bowlers is difficult, hence for us (BD), it's often not possible to find 4 such bowlers who can back 7 men batting through their bowling; but for PAK it should have never been the issue. Ideally, bowling all-rounders are the MVPs of cricket - hence as I say always, instead of Imad or MoHa, I'll always always play Amir, Hasan, Yasir & Sohail/Wahab (now a new kid has to come, they are too old) and extract 60 runs from them ..... and extract 25 overs from Azhar & Haris .....

In T20, I'll play 5 bowlers on bowling merit and extract some run from them. If 6 men can't do in a 20 over game, 7th won't either (that too bits & pieces). For ODI, still 40 overs of genuine bowling has to be there - may be last 10 can be shared.

[The_Odd_One]

TBH, a spin attack of Shadab, Imad, Hafeez, Malik, and Harris is more than good enough for the non-Asian teams.

[The_Odd_One]

That is because, India always prefers specialists. Very few bits and pieces players survive in Indian setup. Whoever plays for India over a period of time will have to be good at one skill first and should be able to make the team solely on that skill. You can look at Jadeja and Axar patels and say they are bits and pieces players, but both are selected for their bowling and anything they bring with bat is a bonus. That is one more reason why Dhoni survives in this setup. Irrespective of his declining batting prowess, Dhoni remains the best wicketkeeper in India and arguably in the world. he gets on the team sheet solely on his wicket keeping skills. Same with Saha in tests. One recent exception is Pandya, but he is a fast bowling allrounder, something India has not handled for more than two decades. So i think they are still finding their way around how to handle him

This is one thing i feel England is lacking. they are picking way too many bits and pieces players or players. when the clutch time comes England will implode

Top post

Instead of using bits and pieces cricketers, India always played with 6-1-4 combination. Guys like Tendulkar, Yuvraj, Sehwag, and Ganguly were good enough to be used as 5th bowler.

[Titan24]

Pretty valid post the way some teams are playing against spin. Even when both Shadab and Nawaz played it was pretty concerning for NZ and they had to up their RR against pacers. Nawaz conceded only 41 runs in 10 overs. Nawaz has improved his temperament quite a bit, was a very nervous youngster when he debuted after PSL for Pakistan.

With Faheem or yamin or both in the side gives us the luxury to add one more specialist spinner.

Usama Mir (Leggie bowling in tandem with Shadab)
Mohammad Irfan, is also a pretty go batsman (Leggie)
Asghar
Raza Hassan
Kashif Bhatti (He is also a pretty canny left arm spinner and decent hitter of a cricket ball)

[Sarfarazian92]

should've made his debut already

[Titan24]

TBH, a spin attack of Shadab, Imad, Hafeez, Malik, and Harris is more than good enough for the non-Asian teams.

Yes only if Hafeez bowls and maddy either gets new ball, actual spin on the ball or the opposition doesnt find out his drift like NZ did last time he toured there.

With Faheem in the playing xi we can have three pacers and one more wicket taking spinner with Shadab.
Imad or if Hafeez bowls can defend good totals or restrict the opposition but they are not wicket taking options and I like Imad but have to admit that. But, yes have to agree they will do the job more often then not.

Sarfaraz uses them exceptionally as well but atlleast one can have another specialist spinner in the squad, it gives you an option to change combination during the series.

[Cric1234]

TBH, a spin attack of Shadab, Imad, Hafeez, Malik, and Harris is more than good enough for the non-Asian teams.

Last ODI series was a 5-0 loss so no it's not good enough picking up wickets is key part timers won't be doing that.

[Syed1]

We need to get Asghar in ASAP

[Gubol123]

True - cricket is a specialist game. All-rounders, not for the sake of it - those players don't deliver under pressure, because they are not good in any facet.

I have been arguing (you know whom) for long that in any format, I'll play 4 specialist bowlers with batting ability like Mcgrath, Murali, Donald & Asif ... (better if they can match bowling as well).

Developing bowlers is difficult, hence for us (BD), it's often not possible to find 4 such bowlers who can back 7 men batting through their bowling; but for PAK it should have never been the issue. Ideally, bowling all-rounders are the MVPs of cricket - hence as I say always, instead of Imad or MoHa, I'll always always play Amir, Hasan, Yasir & Sohail/Wahab (now a new kid has to come, they are too old) and extract 60 runs from them ..... and extract 25 overs from Azhar & Haris .....

In T20, I'll play 5 bowlers on bowling merit and extract some run from them. If 6 men can't do in a 20 over game, 7th won't either (that too bits & pieces). For ODI, still 40 overs of genuine bowling has to be there - may be last 10 can be shared.

This.. exactly, i don't know why teams don't play with five bowlers in T20. It is a 20 overs match for heaven's sake. if your top five + a wicket keeper is not good enough to play out 20 overs, then you have bigger problems. I can understand expecting the bowlers to be capable of big heaves with some might connections, but the majority of the batting has to be done by your specialist batsman.

Also, irrespective of the format bowlers tend to win more matches than batsman. After all it only takes a single ball to get rid of even the best batsman. A bowler can bowl garbage all day and can come back with one single fiery spell where he picks up three wickets. that kind of spell will have a huge impact irrespective of the format. That is the reason why Pakistan tends to do well and has traditionally done much better than India. India has been more competitive and looked top two team only after they started to producing impactfull bowlers. Even current success is due to three bowlers who are averaging sub 24 in ODIs. Inability to produce/play specialist bowlers is what will hurt England in major tournaments where Aus/Ind/SriLanka/Pak tend to lift their games

[IndianFan2018]

That is because, India always prefers specialists. Very few bits and pieces players survive in Indian setup. Whoever plays for India over a period of time will have to be good at one skill first and should be able to make the team solely on that skill. You can look at Jadeja and Axar patels and say they are bits and pieces players, but both are selected for their bowling and anything they bring with bat is a bonus. That is one more reason why Dhoni survives in this setup. Irrespective of his declining batting prowess, Dhoni remains the best wicketkeeper in India and arguably in the world. he gets on the team sheet solely on his wicket keeping skills. Same with Saha in tests. One recent exception is Pandya, but he is a fast bowling allrounder, something India has not handled for more than two decades. So i think they are still finding their way around how to handle him

This is one thing i feel England is lacking. they are picking way too many bits and pieces players or players. when the clutch time comes England will implode

Good and correct observation ..kudos !

[Justcrazy]

Shadab and Yasir can be played together.

A bold captain can use them in middle overs with attacking fields and look to get teams out in 40 - 45 overs.

[Cric1234]

Raza just looks international class to me and should be selected depending on performance in PSL as that's what selectors watch more.

[ads101]

I'm not impressed with the standard of our 3rd pacer. Even our 2nd pacer isn't great. I'd rather play a better spinner than a worse pacer just for team composition sake. Our spinners tend to trouble other teams more than the pacers of recent decades anyway.

Think it's time to play 2 pacers, 2 spinners in most conditions. Shadab looked better than most of our bowlers in NZ.

Ashgar should come in. Raza if he's back to form was international quality, he could be an option. 3rd pacer duties can be done by the allrounder. I'd prefer someone like Talat, though I guess Fahim or Yamin could do the job too. If you're going to average over 30 with the ball, it's better you're not a complete tailender with the bat, you need to be able to bat.

If the pitches support pace, we could always include a 3rd pacer. But think we should probably admit to our strengths. I mean Haris was outbowling some of our pacers, in NZ. But having four fast bowling options in the team is probably overkill atm when only one is class, and another has his moments.

[MMHS]

This.. exactly, i don't know why teams don't play with five bowlers in T20. It is a 20 overs match for heaven's sake. if your top five + a wicket keeper is not good enough to play out 20 overs, then you have bigger problems. I can understand expecting the bowlers to be capable of big heaves with some might connections, but the majority of the batting has to be done by your specialist batsman.

Also, irrespective of the format bowlers tend to win more matches than batsman. After all it only takes a single ball to get rid of even the best batsman. A bowler can bowl garbage all day and can come back with one single fiery spell where he picks up three wickets. that kind of spell will have a huge impact irrespective of the format. That is the reason why Pakistan tends to do well and has traditionally done much better than India. India has been more competitive and looked top two team only after they started to producing impactfull bowlers. Even current success is due to three bowlers who are averaging sub 24 in ODIs. Inability to produce/play specialist bowlers is what will hurt England in major tournaments where Aus/Ind/SriLanka/Pak tend to lift their games

This is the main reason PAK is among top T20 teams - 4 of their top bowlers are perfect for T20 style batting - that's 5/10 runs at 200+ SR. If used properly, Shadab, Imad, Hasan & Amir are top quality T20 players with ball & even bat; add to that Fahim, Malik (& MoHa) ...... however, you can't depend on these batsmen (bowlers with bat) for 50 overs distance.

[CadPakFan]

Last ODI series was a 5-0 loss so no it's not good enough picking up wickets is key part timers won't be doing that.

We kept them under 300 4/5 times on school boy boundaries, it was our batting that failed us.

[ShahidDar08]

Raza Hasan or Zafar Gowhar or Mohammed Asgar

[sarmad1983]

what is the current form of raza hasan after the ban? is he playing PSL for any team. I would rate the old raza hasan above all as he cud move the new ball both ways and many openers/sloggers were left clueless.

Raza hasan >> Imad/asghar/nawaz/etc

[finalfantasy7]

Raza hasan- can bat

[austerlitz]

Its not about a spinner.Its about having another quality wrist spinner.Go wrist spin or go home,with doosras all but banned.

[TalentSpotterPk]

Ahmer Ajaz isn’t getting any game time which is a failure on part of talent scouting teams of PCB.

He is a top offie talent.


Ashiq Ali & Raza Hassan should be in the mix for Odis now.


Usama Mir should be back up option for Shadab.



Nawaz & Imad are quite useless as spinners atleast & imad’s fitness is very poor.

[MMHS]

Off spinners are obsolete in ODI - simple reason is that with the quality of bat, low seem on ball (hand stitched balls have pronounced seem which is easier for off-spin grip, machine stitched Kookaburra is almost like Hockey ball) & ground size; teams, with majority right handers can keep sweeping against offies and still will get away with top edged SIX - and one can't get LBW with off-spin, if the batsman is intelligent enough to drag front pad just outside line wile playing leg-side swings). Since Doosra is banned, unless offies come with very good loop & Murali like turn - specialist offies are too risky in ODI.

I first noticed that in Indian strategy (they NEVER miss a tick with spin options, never) of dropping Ashwin and play Jadav for the purpose, but couldn't explain to myself - why? Hathura actually answered for me - in recent tour, he used right-handed top orders to go after Miraz (who is quite accomplished offie), from ball one and they were clearing the boundary quite frequently.

In that respect, NO SPECIALIST OFFIE For ODI (& T20), rather Aga Salman Ali should be allowed to be the 3rd spinner in Asian condition (which should go to 4th pacer out side - may be in the form of Fahim or Yamin). Ideally, PAK should play 2.5 spinners in Asia (Shadab, another genuine spinner - can be Leggi or a SLAO), and Aga or Hari/Saud bowling the 3rd spinner - I'll keep Aga in XI to counter a pair of lefti together in the middle.

Outside Asia - it should be 1 or 2 specialist spinner, but NEVER a part-time spinner, because he is not going to do any harm, absolutely nothing. One needs to check MoHa's stats outside UAE for a reality check, once ICC restricted his chucking. Ideally, it should be 2 specialist spinners & 3 pacers or 1 specialist spinner (Shadab) and may be Hari/Saud to bowl few overs against a pair of right handers and 4th seemer, which has to be an all-rounder.

BUT - NO DARTERS PLS., and never off-spinning darters; ABSOLUTE USELESS WITHOUT CHUCKING (DOOSRA).

[ads101]

what is the current form of raza hasan after the ban? is he playing PSL for any team. I would rate the old raza hasan above all as he cud move the new ball both ways and many openers/sloggers were left clueless.

Raza hasan >> Imad/asghar/nawaz/etc

Have not seen much of Ashgar, but kind of want to see the hype around him. Raza's definitely a better bowler than Imad and Nawaz from what I've seen.

Raza could bowl with the new ball, which would allow us to play 2 spinners. I'd still open with the two fast bowlers in Amir and Hasan often, but it's nice to have the third option in case we want it (or on spin friendly pitches).

Currently our new ball bowling isn't great, it seems like Amir's the only one who's decent at it. And while a pacer good with the new ball coming in would help, not sure we have one.

[Hasan123]

Off spinners are obsolete in ODI - simple reason is that with the quality of bat, low seem on ball (hand stitched balls have pronounced seem which is easier for off-spin grip, machine stitched Kookaburra is almost like Hockey ball) & ground size; teams, with majority right handers can keep sweeping against offies and still will get away with top edged SIX - and one can't get LBW with off-spin, if the batsman is intelligent enough to drag front pad just outside line wile playing leg-side swings). Since Doosra is banned, unless offies come with very good loop & Murali like turn - specialist offies are too risky in ODI.

I first noticed that in Indian strategy (they NEVER miss a tick with spin options, never) of dropping Ashwin and play Jadav for the purpose, but couldn't explain to myself - why? Hathura actually answered for me - in recent tour, he used right-handed top orders to go after Miraz (who is quite accomplished offie), from ball one and they were clearing the boundary quite frequently.

In that respect, NO SPECIALIST OFFIE For ODI (& T20), rather Aga Salman Ali should be allowed to be the 3rd spinner in Asian condition (which should go to 4th pacer out side - may be in the form of Fahim or Yamin). Ideally, PAK should play 2.5 spinners in Asia (Shadab, another genuine spinner - can be Leggi or a SLAO), and Aga or Hari/Saud bowling the 3rd spinner - I'll keep Aga in XI to counter a pair of lefti together in the middle.

Outside Asia - it should be 1 or 2 specialist spinner, but NEVER a part-time spinner, because he is not going to do any harm, absolutely nothing. One needs to check MoHa's stats outside UAE for a reality check, once ICC restricted his chucking. Ideally, it should be 2 specialist spinners & 3 pacers or 1 specialist spinner (Shadab) and may be Hari/Saud to bowl few overs against a pair of right handers and 4th seemer, which has to be an all-rounder.

BUT - NO DARTERS PLS., and never off-spinning darters; ABSOLUTE USELESS WITHOUT CHUCKING (DOOSRA).

Agree with this. People think Imad and Hafeez going for 50 in 10 overs is good. When in fact the milking done is allowing batsmen to settle and tick scoreboard over. Once they are set they are able to accelerate.

Shadab and another wicket taking spinner should be selected if we are going to play 2 spinners.

[BlueDoritos]

Asghar is the obvious choice. Raza and Zafar have done nothing of note recently in List A Cricket.

[chacha kashmiri]

Whatever happened to mansoor amjad

[Ellipsism]

Asghar is the obvious choice. Raza and Zafar have done nothing of note recently in List A Cricket.

Zafar is coming off a long lay off, it’ll take him some time to settle.

[CricFan2012]

After Ajmal I haven't seen any spinner from Pakistan in ODI's who can run through batting lineups. May be they should give another chance to Yasir Shah and Raza Hasan.

Ajmal ran through batting lineups by chucking though.

[Justcrazy]

Whatever happened to mansoor amjad

He was pretty good , handy with bat also.

[shariqnoor]

Another spinner needs to be inducted for sure but it has to be either an off-spinner or a left arm chinaman to complement Shadab. You shouldn't have two spinners spinning the ball the same way. Plus Shadab should learn to bowl at 75kph with flight. Darting the ball in nullifies his threat unless he can spin the ball sharply at 90kph.

[MMHS]

He was pretty good , handy with bat also.

Born in wrong time - won U19 WC in FEB 2004, unfortunately Ul Haq became Captain in late 2003 ...... for 4 years.

[Justcrazy]

Born in wrong time - won U19 WC in FEB 2004, unfortunately Ul Haq became Captain in late 2003 ...... for 4 years.

He played in three U / 19 world cups.

[Buffet]

This.. exactly, i don't know why teams don't play with five bowlers in T20. It is a 20 overs match for heaven's sake. if your top five + a wicket keeper is not good enough to play out 20 overs, then you have bigger problems. I can understand expecting the bowlers to be capable of big heaves with some might connections, but the majority of the batting has to be done by your specialist batsman.

Also, irrespective of the format bowlers tend to win more matches than batsman. After all it only takes a single ball to get rid of even the best batsman. A bowler can bowl garbage all day and can come back with one single fiery spell where he picks up three wickets. that kind of spell will have a huge impact irrespective of the format. That is the reason why Pakistan tends to do well and has traditionally done much better than India. India has been more competitive and looked top two team only after they started to producing impactfull bowlers. Even current success is due to three bowlers who are averaging sub 24 in ODIs. Inability to produce/play specialist bowlers is what will hurt England in major tournaments where Aus/Ind/SriLanka/Pak tend to lift their games

Not true for ODI format.

In the ODI format, you need to outbat your opposition to win.
In the test format, you need to outbowl your opposition to win.

MOM trend will confirm this as well. Bowlers get most of MOM in test and batsmen get most of MOM in ODI. Sure counterparts do play a part, but just a general theme.

[Abdullah719]

Yadav running riot... Teams can't play good spinners these days and we need to take advantage ASAP!

Picking Yasir is a step in the right direction but I don't think he is the one. He's barely a spinner anyway...

[TeymurBlake]

I would definitely pick Zafar to partner to Shadab personally. I think we could do with another spinner around the team and Zafar also gives us something different. Left Arm Orthodox.

[silent ischemia]

We should have selected Irfan the leggie than Yasir. He spins it both ways and would have been more effective than Yasir in LOIs

[mak36]

We should have selected Irfan the leggie than Yasir. He spins it both ways and would have been more effective than Yasir in LOIs

Seems to have fallen down the pecking order a bit.

He struggled a fair bit in the recent
One Day Cup. To be fair to him, the pitches were so flat.

[ShahidDar08]

Why Zafar Gowhar is not given a chance?
I think he is currently the best left arm spinner in Pakistan.
I remember his debut match against England where he troubled the English batsmen and took 2 wickets.