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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You are probably looking at some outdated World Bank data on India. The latest estimate is that India has sharply reduced extreme poverty below 3%.



    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/futur...ction-in-2019/

    Pakistan on the other hand is going in the opposite direction due to anemic growth rates and food inflation. The following figures of poverty for Pakistan use a different benchmark, so the percentages are not directly comparable to Indian percentages. But the point is that poverty seems to be increasing in Pakistan, and the government's response is "we can't be bothered to measure if it is increasing or decreasing".
    What has become of you? You are now employing mental gymnastics to make your points. You used to be a good debater, but now you only care scoring brownie points by using half the data that suits you, by using extreme false equivalences, by finding random economists that have been predicting doom literally for last 30 years.

    1. The brookings institute data is clearly using a different poverty line than world bank.


    2. The latest apples to apples figures are from world bank. If you can provide any data that compares apples to apples, go for it.
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

    This is the latest data available based on apples to apples comparison.

    3.
    These economists have been theorizing for the last 10 years, that poverty is going up. Guess what, it has went down constantly, according to world bank data. Instead of coming up with theories, find hard data that actually makes your point.

    Based on last available data that compares apples to apples, India's poverty rate is orders of magnitudes worse than Pakistan. There's a reason for that. 73% of India's wealth belongs to top 1% in that country. Unemployment is worst in 40 years. It's interesting how in a country that's supposed to be advancing so far along economically, employment is actually getting worse.

    On top of that, Pakistan's economy hasn't been re-based in almost 15 years, meaning it could already be anywhere from 400 billion - 450 billion already.

    You may very bravely say "being on a FATF list doesn't matter", but it does matter to the poor. Lack on FDI and the consequent anemic economic growth pushes more people into poverty.
    I clearly said why FATF list is useless from a moral perspective. It's also not clear how much being in grey list has cost Pakistan in economic growth. You of course want to believe its in 10s of billions of UUSD. It's also interesting to me how you and a few other Indians have taken far more interest in Pakistan's internal economics than almost anyone.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    I clearly said why FATF list is useless from a moral perspective. It's also not clear how much being in grey list has cost Pakistan in economic growth.
    Completely agree with your opinions and reasons for why the FATF grey list is utterly false. It’s a game of politics in which the strategies are being replayed every few years.
    As for why India or Indians are so concerned about Pakistan appearing on the grey list. Well it fits nicely into their stated narrative of isolating Pakistan. This is their best hope of that narrative bearing some fruit.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    What has become of you? You are now employing mental gymnastics to make your points. You used to be a good debater, but now you only care scoring brownie points by using half the data that suits you, by using extreme false equivalences, by finding random economists that have been predicting doom literally for last 30 years.

    1. The brookings institute data is clearly using a different poverty line than world bank.
    I don't think you are reading my posts carefully. I know WB and Brookings use different definitions of poverty. That is why I wrote " The following figures of poverty for Pakistan use a different benchmark, so the percentages are not directly comparable to Indian percentages."

    2. The latest apples to apples figures are from world bank. If you can provide any data that compares apples to apples, go for it.
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
    http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/IND

    This is the latest data available based on apples to apples comparison.
    You linked to outdated 2011 WB data even after I posted "You are probably looking at some outdated World Bank data on India."

    As you can see from the Brookings link, India has sharply reduced poverty in the last 9 years. Brookings is quite a respected outfit and they say "The soon-to-be-largest country in the world has been reducing extreme poverty fast and the world may have underestimated India’s achievements."

    It is not an apple to apple comparison as the WB data is 2011 for India and 2015 for Pakistan.

    Also, quite frankly, the WB data for India is dubious. In the page you linked to, you will see it says "Poverty headcount ratio at $1.90 a day (2011 PPP) (% of population) 31.1% 2009 21.2% 2011". There is no such magic in the world that can reduce poverty by 10% in 2 years.

    3. These economists have been theorizing for the last 10 years, that poverty is going up. Guess what, it has went down constantly, according to world bank data. Instead of coming up with theories, find hard data that actually makes your point.
    Yes, economists often have their biases. But double digit inflation is going to push more people into poverty unless their incomes keep up, which does not happen for the poorer sections of a country in times of IMF/WB induced "restructuring".

    Based on last available data that compares apples to apples, India's poverty rate is orders of magnitudes worse than Pakistan. There's a reason for that. 73% of India's wealth belongs to top 1% in that country. Unemployment is worst in 40 years. It's interesting how in a country that's supposed to be advancing so far along economically, employment is actually getting worse.

    On top of that, Pakistan's economy hasn't been re-based in almost 15 years, meaning it could already be anywhere from 400 billion - 450 billion already.
    Possibly Pakistan's economy is larger than thought, though it hasn't developed modern industries that need Western FDI. Anyway, the point is that even if you believe WB data, you haven't provided any data to show that "India's poverty rate is orders of magnitudes worse than Pakistan" for the present day (not dubious data from 2011).

    I clearly said why FATF list is useless from a moral perspective. It's also not clear how much being in grey list has cost Pakistan in economic growth. You of course want to believe its in 10s of billions of UUSD. It's also interesting to me how you and a few other Indians have taken far more interest in Pakistan's internal economics than almost anyone.
    I am not going to get into the moral question, that is a different topic. However, economic development for countries like China, Malaysia, South Korea, India, Pakistan etc. is critically dependent on their increasing trade with western economies. FATF is very bad optics for western firms considering investments in Pakistan.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I don't think you are reading my posts carefully. I know WB and Brookings use different definitions of poverty. That is why I wrote " The following figures of poverty for Pakistan use a different benchmark, so the percentages are not directly comparable to Indian percentages."



    You linked to outdated 2011 WB data even after I posted "You are probably looking at some outdated World Bank data on India."
    Because that is the latest data available that we can use to compare apples to apples. Let me flip it another way. WB has Pakistan's poverty rate around 4% using the same poverty line in 2015. I couldn't find any mention of Pakistan in the brookings report, even on any of the charts, and that's probably a good thing for Pakistan. So by your own report Pakistan is doing well, but you post opinion of an economist to suggest its getting worse in Pakistan.

    As you can see from the Brookings link, India has sharply reduced poverty in the last 9 years. Brookings is quite a respected outfit and they say "The soon-to-be-largest country in the world has been reducing extreme poverty fast and the world may have underestimated India’s achievements."
    You call anyone a respected outfit based on opportunism. I remember you used to call WB respected too, but I guess that's not the case anymore.

    It is not an apple to apple comparison as the WB data is 2011 for India and 2015 for Pakistan.
    We can fix that with the wayback machine.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180227...ty/country/PAK

    2011 data for Pakistan shows a rate of 7.9% for Pakistan.

    Also, quite frankly, the WB data for India is dubious. In the page you linked to, you will see it says "Poverty headcount ratio at $1.90 a day (2011 PPP) (% of population) 31.1% 2009 21.2% 2011". There is no such magic in the world that can reduce poverty by 10% in 2 years.
    The economist you were quoting was saying Pakistan's poverty rate will jump by about the same amount in 2 years.

    Yes, economists often have their biases. But double digit inflation is going to push more people into poverty unless their incomes keep up, which does not happen for the poorer sections of a country in times of IMF/WB induced "restructuring".
    That could possibly happen, but Pakistan has been through similar cycles before in Zardari and NS eras and it didn't go south.


    Possibly Pakistan's economy is larger than thought, though it hasn't developed modern industries that need Western FDI. Anyway, the point is that even if you believe WB data, you haven't provided any data to show that "India's poverty rate is orders of magnitudes worse than Pakistan" for the present day (not dubious data from 2011).
    I suppose the issue is that they are using a poverty line ($1.90) that doesn't reflect cost of living in 2020. They probably need to update that, but meantime yes it will be hard to get meaningful data.


    I am not going to get into the moral question, that is a different topic. However, economic development for countries like China, Malaysia, South Korea, India, Pakistan etc. is critically dependent on their increasing trade with western economies. FATF is very bad optics for western firms considering investments in Pakistan.
    Yes, Pakistan government is working on whatever unreasonable requests FATF is creating for Pakistan. My initial point, which I'd like to focus on, is that there's nothing for Pakistanis to be embarassed about with respect to FATF. Some people (including yourself) earlier suggested, without using the words directly, that FATF is some objective neutral party that is just saying things the way they are. They are not such a party, they are run by certain countries that have vested interests. That's why no one should be feel bad about being in that list. It'd be sort of like Iranians feeling embarassed or bad that US is sanctioning them. There is no merit or objectivity in those sanctions.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsan17 View Post
    Because that is the latest data available that we can use to compare apples to apples. Let me flip it another way. WB has Pakistan's poverty rate around 4% using the same poverty line in 2015. I couldn't find any mention of Pakistan in the brookings report, even on any of the charts, and that's probably a good thing for Pakistan. So by your own report Pakistan is doing well, but you post opinion of an economist to suggest its getting worse in Pakistan.



    You call anyone a respected outfit based on opportunism. I remember you used to call WB respected too, but I guess that's not the case anymore.



    We can fix that with the wayback machine.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20180227...ty/country/PAK

    2011 data for Pakistan shows a rate of 7.9% for Pakistan.



    The economist you were quoting was saying Pakistan's poverty rate will jump by about the same amount in 2 years.



    That could possibly happen, but Pakistan has been through similar cycles before in Zardari and NS eras and it didn't go south.




    I suppose the issue is that they are using a poverty line ($1.90) that doesn't reflect cost of living in 2020. They probably need to update that, but meantime yes it will be hard to get meaningful data.




    Yes, Pakistan government is working on whatever unreasonable requests FATF is creating for Pakistan. My initial point, which I'd like to focus on, is that there's nothing for Pakistanis to be embarassed about with respect to FATF. Some people (including yourself) earlier suggested, without using the words directly, that FATF is some objective neutral party that is just saying things the way they are. They are not such a party, they are run by certain countries that have vested interests. That's why no one should be feel bad about being in that list. It'd be sort of like Iranians feeling embarassed or bad that US is sanctioning them. There is no merit or objectivity in those sanctions.
    Citing Brookings is not really opportunism. It is quite well known.

    The University of Pennsylvania's Global Go To Think Tank Index Report has named Brookings "Think Tank of the Year" and "Top Think Tank in the World" every year since 2008. The Economist describes Brookings as "perhaps America’s most prestigious think-tank".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution

    The question of Indian poverty is complicated. India has a significant population of tribals like Bhils, Gonds etc. who are not easily pulled out of poverty.

    Your use of the wayback machine is quite ingenious. I still have a problem with WB's data for Indian poverty reducing from 31% to 21% in 2 years.

    As for Iran, it is also true that their ruling elite keeps provoking the US at the cost of the common Iranian.

    I think readers on this forum probably know my opinion on what ails Pakistan, and why it ends up on lists like the FATF. In fact I have been accused of repeating myself, so I will desist.

    Good luck to you and hope both countries pull their poor out of poverty. Be well.

  6. #326
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    5 pages for such useless topic, certain people come here to beat around the bush, but no one can explain me how Pakistan were managed to get out twice in past .... why and how ?


    The Griffins ....

  7. #327
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    Don't know whether we will stay in grey list or not but one thing is for sure we will never improve and leave terrorism behind. Releasing Ehsan ullah Ehsan exposes all the drama our army does to gather more funds.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by aukhan View Post
    Don't know whether we will stay in grey list or not but one thing is for sure we will never improve and leave terrorism behind. Releasing Ehsan ullah Ehsan exposes all the drama our army does to gather more funds.
    Poor Nation, Rich Army - https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/03/21...ion-rich-army/

    Follow the incentive. Rich army has no incentive to leave terrorism behind and make themeslves irrelvant. How do you increase your value? Start wars, use terrorists, keep the pot boiling...

    If I were in their place then I would also be reluctant to give up cushy life even though it may be built on sufferring of millions of fellow citizens. Optimistic estimate, it will take 2-3 decades for this situation to change.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewarrior View Post
    5 pages for such useless topic, certain people come here to beat around the bush, but no one can explain me how Pakistan were managed to get out twice in past .... why and how ?
    You haven’t answered the question why does Pak
    Keep managing to enter in to the list time and again for the 3rd time. Shouldn’t entering this list the first time be a cause for concern?

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    You haven’t answered the question why does Pak
    Keep managing to enter in to the list time and again for the 3rd time. Shouldn’t entering this list the first time be a cause for concern?
    I think we already answered that. Entry into the list is not based on neutral and objective reasoning, but rather on the direction of geopolitcial wind.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    As for Iran, it is also true that their ruling elite keeps provoking the US at the cost of the common Iranian.

    I think readers on this forum probably know my opinion on what ails Pakistan, and why it ends up on lists like the FATF. In fact I have been accused of repeating myself, so I will desist.
    America is one of the most dishonest nations on this planet yet you expect us to believe the above sentence as gospel? Since many posters refer to you as ‘copy and paste’ king from Google do us a favour and research the following:

    •Iranian coup d’etat
    •Iranian revolution
    •Iran Contra affair
    •Iran Iraq war
    •Operation Merlin
    •cyber warfare - Stuxnet
    •Iranian passenger airplane shot down
    •Soleimani assassination

    That’s from the top of my head.

    Who are the US to tell other nations about financing terror when they have covertly meddled with sovereignty of other nations since forever. Do I need to provide you a list of these? Same with Israel and many more nations (including India). How come they don’t feature on the list of nations financing terror? And by extension appear under the scope of the FATF?

    We really do not require your thesis in relation to Pakistani affairs as you come across as intellectually bankrupt if not plain ignorant

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by aukhan View Post
    Don't know whether we will stay in grey list or not but one thing is for sure we will never improve and leave terrorism behind. Releasing Ehsan ullah Ehsan exposes all the drama our army does to gather more funds.
    Ehsan Ullah was released as a result of a deal which allowed the ISI to find the ring leaders of gang that killed the APS kids. Look at how many have met their fate in the last 2 weeks.

  13. #333
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    FATF decides to keep Pakistan on its grey list, next review in June

    The Financial Action Task Force (FATF) has decided to maintain Pakistan's status on its 'grey list' of countries with inadequate control over curbing money laundering and terrorism financing until June, when the next review will take place, a statement issued by the Finance Division said on Friday.

    "FATF members agreed to maintain Pakistan’s status on FATF’s Compliance Document, normally referred [to] as the Grey List," the press release issued after the conclusion of the six-day FATF plenary meeting in Paris said.

    The Finance Division pointed out that during the last reporting period, Pakistan made "significant progress" in the implementation of the 27-point FATF Action Plan, which was demonstrated by the completion of nine additional action items.

    "FATF reviewed progress made by Pakistan towards implementation of the Action Plan. While acknowledging the steps taken by Pakistan towards implementation of [the plan] and welcoming its high-level political commitment, FATF highlighted the need for further actions for completing the Action Plan by June 2020," the handout said.

    It emphasised that the government "stands committed for taking all necessary action" in order to complete the remaining items in the action plan and that a strategy in this regard has been formulated and is being implemented.

    The FATF in its statement issued after the Paris meeting said it "strongly urges" Pakistan to "swiftly complete" its full action plan by June 2020.

    “Otherwise, should significant and sustainable progress especially in prosecuting and penalising TF (terror financing) not be made by the next Plenary, the FATF will take action,” it added.

    It said such action could include calling on its members to order their financial institutions to give particularly rigorous attention to business relations and transactions with Pakistani clients.

    While noting that all deadlines in Pakistan's action plan have expired, the FATF expressed concern over "Pakistan’s failure to complete its action plan in line with the agreed timelines and in light of the TF risks emanating from the jurisdiction".

    The watchdog did take into account recent "notable improvements" made by Pakistan, saying the country has, to date, "largely addressed" 14 out of 27 action items, with varying levels of progress made on the rest of the action plan.

    With a minimum of three votes by FATF members needed to avoid the organisation's blacklist, Pakistan has been able to avoid punishment so far thanks to support from China and other friendly countries including Malaysia and Turkey.

    The watchdog will undertake the next review of Pakistan’s progress in June.

    Pakistan is already finalising major amendments to at least a dozen of its laws to meet the FATF requirements by June. Targets have been set for further legislation to upgrade about 12-13 laws and subordinate legislation to complete the overall legal framework in line with the FATF standards.


    China lauds Pakistan's efforts

    Earlier, the Chinese foreign ministry had said that a majority of FATF members had recognised Pakistan's efforts to improve its counter-terrorism financing (CTF) regime at the financial watchdog's latest plenary meeting.

    "It was decided at the meeting that Pakistan will be allowed more time to continue implementing its action plan," said Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang at a news briefing in Beijing.

    The statement by the Chinese government came hours ahead of the FATF decision regarding Pakistan's fate on the watchdog's grey list.

    Asked to comment on Indian media reports that China had changed its position at FATF to no longer support Pakistan, Geng said: "China's position on the relevant issue remains unchanged.

    "China maintains that the purpose and aim of the FATF is to support countries' efforts to strengthen institutions against money laundering and terror financing and safeguard the international financing system. We stand ready to work with relevant parties to offer more assistance to Pakistan in this area."

    The Chinese foreign ministry echoed similar views through a tweet, noting that "Pakistan has made enormous efforts in improving its CTF regime, which has been recognised by the majority of FATF members at the latest plenary meeting in Paris. China & other countries will continue offering assistance to Pakistan in this area."


    Also on Friday, Adviser to the Prime Minister on Finance Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh in a meeting with Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Yao Jing thanked the Chinese government for "their massive support in the FATF meetings", a statement issued by the Finance Division said.

    "China and other brotherly countries have supported Pakistan throughout the [FATF] process in terms of guiding the country to improve its frameworks," the press release quoted the adviser as saying.

    The FATF plenary and working group meetings started in Paris, France on Monday and concluded today. A delegation headed by Federal Minister for Economic Affairs Hammad Azhar represented Pakistan at the meetings.

    Placement on grey list

    Pakistan was placed on the FATF grey list in June 2018 and was given a plan of action to complete by October 2019 or face the risk of being placed on the blacklist along with Iran and North Korea.

    In October 2019, the FATF decided to keep Pakistan on its grey list till February, giving it time to implement the 27-point action plan.

    The task force directed Islamabad to take more measures for complete elimination of terror financing and money laundering while expressing serious concerns over the lack of progress in addressing terror financing risks.

    The FATF met again in January this year in Beijing where Pakistan provided a list of actions taken to implement the action plan.

    Ahead of this week's FATF meetings, government sources on Saturday had said that both the political and security establishment felt confident about pleading Pakistan’s case on the basis of strong measures taken over the past few years while addressing the concerns raised by the FATF.

    Just days ahead of the FATF verdict, a senior US diplomat also acknowledged that Islamabad had moved closer to meeting its commitments to combat terrorist financing.

    Last Wednesday, an anti-terrorism court in Lahore convicted Jamaatud Dawa leader Hafiz Saeed and his aide Malik Zafar Iqbal in two terrorist financing cases and sentenced them to five-and-a-half years of imprisonment each.

    The chief US diplomat for South Asian affairs Alice G. Wells called the sentence "an important step forward" towards meeting Pakistan’s commitment to combat terrorist financing.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1535808/fa...review-in-june


    Follow PakPassion on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram!

  14. #334
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    To all those Indians hoping that Pakistan will be blacklisted, that will never happen.
    Pakistan only needs three votes and they’ll very easily get it.

    The question is when will Pakistan exit the greylist?

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    FATF decides to keep Pakistan on its grey list, next review in June

    The Financial Action Task Force (FATF) has decided to maintain Pakistan's status on its 'grey list' of countries with inadequate control over curbing money laundering and terrorism financing until June, when the next review will take place, a statement issued by the Finance Division said on Friday.

    "FATF members agreed to maintain Pakistan’s status on FATF’s Compliance Document, normally referred [to] as the Grey List," the press release issued after the conclusion of the six-day FATF plenary meeting in Paris said.

    The Finance Division pointed out that during the last reporting period, Pakistan made "significant progress" in the implementation of the 27-point FATF Action Plan, which was demonstrated by the completion of nine additional action items.

    "FATF reviewed progress made by Pakistan towards implementation of the Action Plan. While acknowledging the steps taken by Pakistan towards implementation of [the plan] and welcoming its high-level political commitment, FATF highlighted the need for further actions for completing the Action Plan by June 2020," the handout said.

    It emphasised that the government "stands committed for taking all necessary action" in order to complete the remaining items in the action plan and that a strategy in this regard has been formulated and is being implemented.

    The FATF in its statement issued after the Paris meeting said it "strongly urges" Pakistan to "swiftly complete" its full action plan by June 2020.

    “Otherwise, should significant and sustainable progress especially in prosecuting and penalising TF (terror financing) not be made by the next Plenary, the FATF will take action,” it added.

    It said such action could include calling on its members to order their financial institutions to give particularly rigorous attention to business relations and transactions with Pakistani clients.

    While noting that all deadlines in Pakistan's action plan have expired, the FATF expressed concern over "Pakistan’s failure to complete its action plan in line with the agreed timelines and in light of the TF risks emanating from the jurisdiction".

    The watchdog did take into account recent "notable improvements" made by Pakistan, saying the country has, to date, "largely addressed" 14 out of 27 action items, with varying levels of progress made on the rest of the action plan.

    With a minimum of three votes by FATF members needed to avoid the organisation's blacklist, Pakistan has been able to avoid punishment so far thanks to support from China and other friendly countries including Malaysia and Turkey.

    The watchdog will undertake the next review of Pakistan’s progress in June.

    Pakistan is already finalising major amendments to at least a dozen of its laws to meet the FATF requirements by June. Targets have been set for further legislation to upgrade about 12-13 laws and subordinate legislation to complete the overall legal framework in line with the FATF standards.


    China lauds Pakistan's efforts

    Earlier, the Chinese foreign ministry had said that a majority of FATF members had recognised Pakistan's efforts to improve its counter-terrorism financing (CTF) regime at the financial watchdog's latest plenary meeting.

    "It was decided at the meeting that Pakistan will be allowed more time to continue implementing its action plan," said Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang at a news briefing in Beijing.

    The statement by the Chinese government came hours ahead of the FATF decision regarding Pakistan's fate on the watchdog's grey list.

    Asked to comment on Indian media reports that China had changed its position at FATF to no longer support Pakistan, Geng said: "China's position on the relevant issue remains unchanged.

    "China maintains that the purpose and aim of the FATF is to support countries' efforts to strengthen institutions against money laundering and terror financing and safeguard the international financing system. We stand ready to work with relevant parties to offer more assistance to Pakistan in this area."

    The Chinese foreign ministry echoed similar views through a tweet, noting that "Pakistan has made enormous efforts in improving its CTF regime, which has been recognised by the majority of FATF members at the latest plenary meeting in Paris. China & other countries will continue offering assistance to Pakistan in this area."


    Also on Friday, Adviser to the Prime Minister on Finance Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh in a meeting with Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Yao Jing thanked the Chinese government for "their massive support in the FATF meetings", a statement issued by the Finance Division said.

    "China and other brotherly countries have supported Pakistan throughout the [FATF] process in terms of guiding the country to improve its frameworks," the press release quoted the adviser as saying.

    The FATF plenary and working group meetings started in Paris, France on Monday and concluded today. A delegation headed by Federal Minister for Economic Affairs Hammad Azhar represented Pakistan at the meetings.

    Placement on grey list

    Pakistan was placed on the FATF grey list in June 2018 and was given a plan of action to complete by October 2019 or face the risk of being placed on the blacklist along with Iran and North Korea.

    In October 2019, the FATF decided to keep Pakistan on its grey list till February, giving it time to implement the 27-point action plan.

    The task force directed Islamabad to take more measures for complete elimination of terror financing and money laundering while expressing serious concerns over the lack of progress in addressing terror financing risks.

    The FATF met again in January this year in Beijing where Pakistan provided a list of actions taken to implement the action plan.

    Ahead of this week's FATF meetings, government sources on Saturday had said that both the political and security establishment felt confident about pleading Pakistan’s case on the basis of strong measures taken over the past few years while addressing the concerns raised by the FATF.

    Just days ahead of the FATF verdict, a senior US diplomat also acknowledged that Islamabad had moved closer to meeting its commitments to combat terrorist financing.

    Last Wednesday, an anti-terrorism court in Lahore convicted Jamaatud Dawa leader Hafiz Saeed and his aide Malik Zafar Iqbal in two terrorist financing cases and sentenced them to five-and-a-half years of imprisonment each.

    The chief US diplomat for South Asian affairs Alice G. Wells called the sentence "an important step forward" towards meeting Pakistan’s commitment to combat terrorist financing.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1535808/fa...review-in-june
    OH perfect, Pakistan can now release Hafiz Saeed and put him back into jail a week before The June review date. Win-Win


    "You want Philly, Philly ? " Nicholas Edward Foles

  16. #336
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    Does this meeting happen every week?

  17. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    Does this meeting happen every week?
    No but some posters want to keep it relevant.
    I will let you work out which posters and why.

  18. #338
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    What did Pakistan think .. they could convict Hafiz Saeed a week before meeting and trick the FATF into thinking they were cooperating? It doesn't work that way. They want to see real change. Hand over Dawood, Masood and Hafiz to India for starters.


    John 3:16

  19. #339
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    FATF ‘recognises Pakistan’s efforts’ to fulfil action plan

    ISLAMABAD: The Financial Action Task Force has decided not to blacklist Pakistan and give it more time to complete the 27-point action plan it has committed to as the “vast majority of FATF members recognised Islamabad’s enormous efforts to improve its counter-terror financing regime”.

    The global financial watchdog announced on Friday that its plenary has decided not to blacklist Pakistan after the country showed progress on majority of the actionable points and demonstrated its serious political commitment to curb terror financing and money laundering.

    Pakistan’s status would be retained on FATF’s Compliance Document, normally referred to as the “grey list”, for four more months, setting June 2020 as the new deadline for delivering on the remaining points related to terror financing risk management.
    “Pakistan has made enormous efforts in improving its counter-terror financing system, which has been recognised by the vast majority of FATF members at its latest plenary meeting concluded on February 20 in Paris, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang told a daily briefing in Beijing.

    The FATF decision might have come as a huge disappointment for India, which has consistently lobbied for ‘blacklisting’ Pakistan by the global financial watchdog. Geng was specifically asked about the Indian media reports which said Beijing was shifting its stance at FATF.

    “China’s position on the relevant issue remains unchanged,” the spokesperson told the reporter categorically. “It was decided at the meeting that Pakistan will be allowed more time to continue implementing its action plan,” he added.

    “China maintains that the purpose and aim of FATF is to support countries’ efforts to strengthen institutions against money laundering and terror financing and safeguard the international financing system. We stand ready to work with relevant parties to offer more assistance to Pakistan in this area.”

    The FATF, also known by its French name Groupe d’Action Financiere, is an intergovernmental organisation founded in 1989 on the initiative of the G-7 nations to develop policies to combat money laundering.


    This is the second four-month lifeline that FATF has given to Pakistan, which would also help keep opening the financing pipelines from international creditors. Avoiding FATF’s blacklist would also guarantee continuation of the IMF programme, subject to fulfillment of other IMF conditions.

    “The FATF recognises progress made by Pakistan but is concerned about the failure to complete its action plan to reduce money laundering and terrorist financing risks”, the financial watchdog stated in a statement issued on Friday after the six-day plenary in Paris.

    “The FATF strongly urges Pakistan to swiftly complete its full action plan by June 2020. Otherwise, [if] significant and sustainable progress especially in prosecuting and penalising TF (terror financing) not made by the next plenary, the FATF will take action,” the statement added.

    The FATF plenary was chaired by its President Xiangmin Liu of China. Xiangmin’s term will end in June and in July Germany will take the chair of the 39-member global watchdog.

    Finance Adviser Dr Hafeez Shaikh on Friday thanked the Chinese government on its “massive support in the FATF meetings”. Shaikh said China and other brotherly countries supported Pakistan throughout the FATF process in terms of guiding the country to improve its frameworks.

    The FATF statement noted that since June 2018, Pakistan made a high-level political commitment to work with the FATF and the Asia-Pacific Group (APG) to strengthen its AML/CFT regime and to address its strategic counter-terrorist financing-related deficiencies.

    Pakistan’s political commitment has led to progress in a number of areas in its action plan, the statement said. The progress has been made on risk-based supervision and pursuing domestic and international cooperation to identify cash couriers, it added.

    The FATF underlined that Pakistan should continue to work on implementing its action plan to address its strategic deficiencies by:

    demonstrating that remedial actions and sanctions are applied in cases of AML/CFT violations, relating to TF risk management and TFS obligations;
    demonstrating that competent authorities are cooperating and taking action to identify and take enforcement action against illegal money or value transfer services (MVTS);
    demonstrating the implementation of cross-border currency and BNI controls at all ports of entry, including applying effective, proportionate and dissuasive sanctions;
    demonstrating that law-enforcement agencies (LEAs) are identifying and investigating the widest range of TF activity and that TF investigations and prosecutions target-designated persons and entities, and those acting on behalf or at the direction of the designated persons or entities;
    demonstrating that TF prosecutions result in effective, proportionate and dissuasive sanctions;
    demonstrating effective implementation of targeted financial sanctions (supported by a comprehensive legal obligation) against all 1267 and 1373-designated terrorists and those acting for or on their behalf, including preventing the raising and moving of funds, identifying and freezing assets (movable and immovable), and prohibiting access to funds and financial services;
    demonstrating enforcement against TFS violations, including administrative and criminal penalties and provincial and federal authorities cooperating on enforcement cases; and,
    demonstrating that facilities and services owned or controlled by designated person are deprived of their resources and the usage of the resources.
    The FATF’s decision to retain Pakistan on the “grey list” is in line with the government’s expectations. Although, the government was unable to comply with some of the points in the action plan, it did make efforts to improve the situation.

    There were little chances of Pakistan being blacklisted at the FATF’s plenary meeting this month because of the Pakistani civilian and military leadership’s commitments to plug the loopholes in combating terror financing and money laundering. But Pakistan had not expected a warning at the same time.

    In February last year, the FATF had decided to place Islamabad on the “grey list” with effect from June 2018. Pakistan had been given a 27-point ambitious action plan that required it to completely choke terror financing and monetary laundering, dismantle terrorists’ sanctuaries, and make the banking and non-banking financial regulations more stringent.

    The FATF also stated that Iran had yet to ratify the UN’s Terrorist Financing and Palermo Conventions, calling on “all countries to apply effective counter-measures against Iran”.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2161629...ing-grey-list/


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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    What did Pakistan think .. they could convict Hafiz Saeed a week before meeting and trick the FATF into thinking they were cooperating? It doesn't work that way. They want to see real change. Hand over Dawood, Masood and Hafiz to India for starters.
    That will Never happen. Maybe if they trade Modi then there is a chance.

  21. #341
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    " The watchdog did take into account recent "notable improvements" made by Pakistan, saying the country has, to date, "largely addressed" 14 out of 27 action items, with varying levels of progress made on the rest of the action plan."

    Seems Pakistan has made considerable progress. Pakistan will never be blacklisted, and will be off the gray list soon enough.

  22. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    That will Never happen. Maybe if they trade Modi then there is a chance.
    ThomasKutty thinks India is a Supa Powa lol Attitude like Amerika and then pilots like Abhinandan lol

  23. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    What did Pakistan think .. they could convict Hafiz Saeed a week before meeting and trick the FATF into thinking they were cooperating? It doesn't work that way. They want to see real change. Hand over Dawood, Masood and Hafiz to India for starters.
    "hAnD oVeR"

    Who are you? lol

    If we think they're terrorists we'll deal with them ourselves. Fix up you country before trying to mess with our system
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 23rd February 2020 at 20:01.

  24. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomaskutty View Post
    What did Pakistan think .. they could convict Hafiz Saeed a week before meeting and trick the FATF into thinking they were cooperating? It doesn't work that way. They want to see real change. Hand over Dawood, Masood and Hafiz to India for starters.
    this isnt your game.


    The Griffins ....

  25. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    Ehsan Ullah was released as a result of a deal which allowed the ISI to find the ring leaders of gang that killed the APS kids. Look at how many have met their fate in the last 2 weeks.
    Give that excuse to the victim families. Im sure they are not happy thats why they have protested against this decision.

  26. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by aukhan View Post
    Give that excuse to the victim families. Im sure they are not happy thats why they have protested against this decision.
    So you want the ISI to come out and say we killed the ring leaders. If the families knew that they managed to get the ring leaders because of the information they received from him, I think they would be happier. But it's happened, at least 3 of the ring leaders have been eliminated.

  27. #347
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    Hand over a Pakistani national to India. What do these people smoke

  28. #348
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    FATF to review steps taken by Pakistan in June


    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s performance to meet international commitments and standards in the fight against money laundering and terror financing will be reviewed by the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) at its meeting slated to be held in Beijing on June 21-26.

    In February, the Paris-based global watchdog against financial crimes gave Pakistan a four-month grace period to complete its 27-point action plan against money laundering and terror financing committed with the international community when it noted that Pakistan had delivered on 14 points and missed 13 other targets.

    A senior government official told Dawn that Pakistan’s performance would be reviewed at the joint working group meetings of the FATF and Eurasian Group (EAG) scheduled for June 21-26 in Beijing and the assessment would lead to final announcement in October this year if Pakistan should move out of the grey list. He said certain action points were yet to be complied with the commitments mainly because of ongoing coronavirus lockdowns.

    Officials said that Pakistan had put in place a broad-based strategy for taking necessary actions to complete outstanding commitments with the FATF in February and was actively making progress. The FATF announced on February 21 that all deadlines given to Pakistan to complete 27-point action plan had expired and yet only 14 items had largely been completed, leaving 13 unaccomplished targets. It strongly urged Pakistan to swiftly complete its full action plan by June 2020 or else it would be moved to the list of monitored jurisdiction, commonly known as blacklist.

    “Otherwise, should significant and sustainable progress especially in prosecuting and penalising TF (terrorist financing) not be made by the next Plenary, the FATF will take action, which could include the FATF calling on its members and urging all jurisdiction to advise their Financial Institutions (FIs) to give special attention to business relations and transactions with Pakistan”, the FATF said in a formal announcement in February.

    The FATF had noted “recent and notable improvements” but “again expresses concerns given Pakistan’s failure to complete its action plan in line with the agreed timelines and in light of the TF risks emanating from the jurisdiction”.

    Pakistan has to show compliance with 13 remaining action points in eight key categories. The country has to demonstrate that remedial actions and sanctions are applied in cases of AML/CFT violations, relating to terrorist financing (TF) risk management and TFS (terror financing sanctions) obligations.

    Pakistan has also to demonstrate that competent authorities were cooperating and taking action to identify and take enforcement action against illegal money or value transfer services and prove the implementation of cross-border currency and ‘bearer negotiable instruments’ controls at all ports of entry, including applying effective, proportionate and dissuasive sanctions.

    Pakistan also has demonstrate that law enforcement agencies are identifying and investigating the widest range of TF activity and that TF investigations and prosecutions target designated persons and entities, and those acting on behalf or at the direction of the designated persons or entities besides showing TF prosecutions result in effective, proportionate and dissuasive sanctions.

    Pakistan’s outstanding action areas also include effective implementation of targeted financial sanctions (supported by a comprehensive legal obligation) against all 1,267 and 1,373 designated terrorists and those acting for or on their behalf, including preventing the raising and moving of funds, identifying and freezing assets (movable and immovable), and prohibiting access to funds and financial services.

    Pakistan will also have to demonstrate enforcement against TFS violations, including administrative and criminal penalties and provincial and federal authorities cooperating on enforcement cases and prove that facilities and services owned or controlled by designated person are deprived of their resources and the usage of the resources.

    The FATF plenary had formally placed Pakistan in the grey list in June 2018 due to ‘strategic deficiencies’ in its AML/CFT regime after a push from India supported by the US, UK and some European countries. Pakistan then committed at the highest level to a 27-point action plan but failed to meet deadlines.

    Pakistan has already finalised major amendments to at least a dozen of its laws to meet FATF requirements by June this year.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1547060/fa...kistan-in-june


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  29. #349
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    FATF grants unexpected relief to Pakistan amid pandemic

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Tuesday rece*ived an unexpected relief when it was given a five-month grace period by the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) to submit its performance report on 13 outstanding benchmarks for foolproof arrangements against money laundering and terror financing.

    “We have just received an intimation from FATF through the State Bank of Pakistan that our review scheduled for June 21-26 in Beijing has been postponed,” a senior government official told Dawn. The country’s performance would now be reviewed in October.

    He said Pakistan was earlier required to submit a performance report by April 20. “We will now send our report to FATF in August that would be reviewed in October,” the official said, adding the postponement was apparently caused by uncertainties over the coronavirus pandemic but the health crisis had provided Pakistan with additional time to remove deficiencies.

    In February, the Paris-based global watchdog against financial crimes gave Pakistan a four-month grace period to complete its 27-point action plan against money laundering and terror financing committed when it noted that Pakistan had delivered on 14 points and missed 13 other targets.

    Officials said that Pakistan had put in place a broad-based strategy for taking necessary actions to complete outstanding commitments with the FATF in February and was actively making progress.

    The FATF announced on Feb 21 that all deadlines given to Pakistan to complete the 27-point action plan had expired and only 14 items had largely been completed, leaving 13 unaccomplished targets.

    It had strongly urged Pakistan to swiftly complete its full action plan by June 2020 or else it would be moved to the list of monitored jurisdiction, commonly known as the watchdog’s blacklist.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1547318/fa...-amid-pandemic


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  30. #350
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    Pakistan's finance adviser lauds US support in FATF

    Pakistan appreciates the support extended by the US in the Financial Action Task Force (FATF), fight against Covid-19 and debt relief from G20 countries, said Adviser to Prime Minister on Finance and Revenue Dr Abdul Hafeez Shaikh.

    In virtual discussion with members of the US-Pakistan Business Council, Shaikh said, “We value our relationship with the US, particularly business collaborations, which have a great potential for growth given the opportunities for business and investment available in Pakistan.”

    He said the business environment in Pakistan, facilitated by a greater ease of doing business, improved regulations and huge market potential, was ideal for US businessmen for making investment and forming joint ventures. The adviser said the government had recently announced Rs1.2-trillion stimulus package to shore up the economy and boost businesses.

    Similarly, the upcoming budget was being designed in a way to provide maximum relief and incentives for businesses and promote trade by reducing tariffs on a large number of raw materials. Speaking on the occasion, US-Pakistan Business Council President Esperanza Jelalian and Chairman Steven Kobos said the US government and businessmen saw Pakistan as an important trade partner.

    https://tribune.com.pk/story/2225904...-support-fatf/


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