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  1. #1
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    Russia highly likely to be behind poisoning of spy, says Theresa May

    The attempted murder of ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, using a nerve agent was a "brazen and reckless" act, Amber Rudd has said.

    Mr Skripal and his daughter are still critically ill after being found collapsed on a bench in Salisbury city centre on Sunday.

    Counter-terrorism officers are working to find the origin of the nerve agent.

    A police officer, who was in intensive care, is now "stable and conscious", Wiltshire's chief constable said.

    Wiltshire Police named the officer as Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey.

    Addressing the House of Commons, the home secretary said the attack was "attempted murder in the most cruel and public way".

    Ms Rudd told MPs it was an "outrageous crime", adding that the government would "act without hesitation as the facts become clearer".

    She refused to speculate on whether the Russian state might have been involved in the attack, saying the police investigation should be based on "facts, not rumour".

    However, she said the government was committed to bringing the perpetrators to justice "whoever they are and wherever they may be".

    Prime Minister Theresa May told ITV News that "if action needs to be taken then the government will do that".

    "We will do what is appropriate, we will do what is right, if it is proved to be the case that this is state-sponsored," she said.

    Russia has denied it was involved.

    Meanwhile, a doctor who was one of the first people at the scene has described how she found Ms Skripal slumped unconscious on a bench, vomiting and fitting. She had also lost control of her bodily functions.

    The woman, who asked not to be named, told the BBC she moved Ms Skripal into the recovery position and opened her airway, as others tended to her father.

    She said she treated her for almost 30 minutes, saying there was no sign of any chemical agent on Ms Skripal's face or body.

    The doctor said she had been worried she would be affected by the nerve agent, but added that she "feels fine".

    BBC correspondent Leila Nathoo said there had been "a flurry of activity" outside Mr Skripal's Salisbury home on Thursday.

    She said ambulances and an incident response team were in attendance and a police tent had been erected outside the house.


    Graves sealed off

    Part of a business park in nearby Amesbury also remains cordoned off, while the graves of Mr Skripal's wife and son at a Salisbury cemetery have also been taped off by police.

    It comes as police said government scientists have identified the nerve agent used, but will not be making that information public at this stage.

    A source familiar with the investigation told the BBC the agent was likely to be rarer than the Sarin gas thought to have been used in Syria and in an attack on the Tokyo subway in 1995.

    And it was said not to be VX - the nerve agent used to kill the half brother of the North Korean leader Kim Jong-un in Malaysia last year.

    Earlier, Ms Rudd told the BBC the nerve agent used in the poisoning was "very rare".

    Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson said Russia was becoming an "ever greater threat", amid speculation the attack could have some element of state involvement.

    "Russia's being assertive, Russia's being more aggressive, and we have to change the way that we deal with it because we can't be in a situation in these areas of conflict where we are being pushed around by another nation," he told ITV's Good Morning Britain.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43326734


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  2. #2
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    A total of 21 people have received medical treatment after falling ill following the poisoning of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal, police have said.

    Kier Pritchard, temporary Chief Constable of Wiltshire Police, said a number of people were taken to hospital after exposure to the nerve agent which has left Mr Skripal and his daughter Yulia fighting for life.

    Several of the force’s officers are among those who have been treated, he said.

    He told Sky News: “We’ve had multiple officers involved. There’s been around 21 people including the main two index patients – the man and the woman that were located a bench.

    “A number of those have been through the hospital treatment process. They’re having blood tests, they’ve having treatment in terms of support and advice provided.”

    His remarks are the first confirmation of victims other than the Skripals and Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, a Wiltshire Police officer who was among the first to give help to the spy.

    Mr Skripal, 66, and his daughter, 33, remain critically ill in intensive care after they were found unconscious on a bench in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon. Detectives believe they were targeted in an assassination attempt.

    Mr Bailey is the only police officer who remains in hospital in connection to the poisoning, said Mr Pritchard, who added it was too soon to say if he would make a full recovery.

    The Chief Constable said: “We’re going to have to wait to see on that... He’s well, he’s sat up. He is not the Nick that I know but of course he’s receiving a high level of treatment. He’s in the safe hands of the medical professionals.

    “But of course he’s very anxious, he’s very concerned. He did his very best on that night.”

    He added he was “massively” proud of the officers who put themselves at risk responding to the poisoning.

    “All of our staff that attended the incident in Salisbury... they performed the role that police officers do every day up and down the country – limited information, responded to try and protect people and safeguard people we knew were ill,” said Mr Pritchard. “Based on that information I’m massively proud of what Nick did and all of my staff on that night.”

    Home Secretary Amber Rudd said earlier on Thursday: “The officer was one of the first responders on Sunday, acting selflessly to help others. The latest update from the hospital is that the officer remains serious but stable and is conscious, talking and engaging.”

    Authorities have said there is no wider risk to the public as Britain’s security services hunt a network of highly trained assassins suspected of launching the nerve agent attack.

    The sophisticated and brutal method used to target Mr Skripal points towards “either present or past state-sponsored actors”, investigators have told The Independent.

    Preliminary enquiries have focused on the former military intelligence colonel as being intended target with his daughter seen as a collateral victim. But the severity of the attack with the use of such a lethal ingredient showed a “quite staggering ruthlessness,” a Whitehall official said.

    Police and security agencies have not revealed the type of nerve agent that left the victims critically ill. A source said that it would the toxin would almost certainly have needed a specialist laboratory to manufacture.

    The sophistication is seen as another indication that the would-be assassins were likely to have had access to state resources and extensively planned the attack.

    Hundreds of detectives, forensic specialists, analysts and intelligence officers from the Metropolitan Police and Wiltshire Police are involved in an investigation to uncover who was behind the attack.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8246566.html


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  3. #3
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    UK may seek joint World Cup boycott over Sergei Skripal poisoning!

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...cott-3qt85j9dw

    A boycott of the World Cup is being considered by Britain as part of its response to Russia if Moscow is found to be behind the spy attack, sources said.

    Officials are talking to the US and European allies about a co-ordinated retaliation, including possible diplomatic, economic and military measures, if it is established that the targeting of Sergei and Yulia Skripal was state-sponsored by the Kremlin.

    “A boycott of the World Cup is definitely one of the options on the cards,” a defence source said last night.

    This could involve stopping senior politicians and officials from attending or even withdrawing the England squad from the tournament. Other countries with teams in the finals, such as Poland, Australia and Japan, could also be asked to join in the action. “A wide range of options are being discussed,” a senior Whitehall source said.
    Really? I think the Football community would welcome a boycott! England is not a powerhouse in Football anyway! Russia will not be losing sleep over this ***** threat!

  4. #4
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    Although England will not come close to winning the World Cup, this is total madness!

    The fans would never want England to withdraw over this and they shouldn't, it's sport.

    FIFA will ban England from the next world cup if this happens.


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  5. #5
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    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.

  6. #6
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    Do it if they want. Will have a bigger impact on the World Cup and create more interest than if they actually enter it, LOL - another quarter-final exit is looming for us, given the seeding and the draw.

  7. #7
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    I think England should boycott the World Cup, and the disgraceful Qatar one in 2022.

  8. #8
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    It won't happen, but maybe the idea is to discuss it and make Russia a bit nervous. A waste of time really, but you have to be seen to be doing something.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.
    Slight difference. The world boycotted and banned SA. This is not the case with Russia. Plus England's boycott is useless if they end up being the only team doing so.

    Boycotting is not answer. We also know if Russia was a weak nation then they'd be bombed by now. The only answer would to hit them where it hurts and that's by freezing their assets in the UK - but even this has ramifications.
    Last edited by R3verse Swing; 11th March 2018 at 11:28.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.
    This

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.
    Given that Blair was instrumental in starting a war under false pretenses, which has led to the deaths of over half a million people, I think the British are being a tad hypocritical in complaining "Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear. This outrage cannot go unanswered."

    Skripal was apparently responsible for having blown the cover of about 300 Russian agents. It is possible that the Russians decided to make an example of this Skripal to deter further treachery.
    Last edited by Napa; 11th March 2018 at 11:34.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.
    Jack Straw, who was Foreign Secretary during the Iraq War, during an interview this morning stated that everyone was saying Iraq had WMD's based upon 'intelligence' and 'high probability'. And based upon that 'intelligence' and 'high probability', he was amongst those who took the decision to go to war, which he more or less agreed (without saying so explicitly) was the wrong decision considering that no WMD's were found.

    He was saying that just simply 'high probability' based upon 'intelligence' is not enough (as the decision to invade Iraq shows), and that absolute proof must exist before accusations are made against Russia / Putin and any action taken.

    So whilst the nerve agent probably came from Russia, and the decision was probably made by the Russian state, thus far there doesn't appear to be absolute proof or even a clear motive by the Russians to take him out. Apparently it's an unwritten rule in the spy world that when spies/traitors get exchanged as part of some agreement, they are not seen as being a danger anymore and are to be left alone and not be targeted again.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  13. #13
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    Would probably improve the WC if it happens.

  14. #14
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    This won’t change a thing. If UK wants to give a strong response to Russia, help Ukraine and other Eastern European countries.

  15. #15
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    Russia highly likely to be behind poisoning of spy, says Theresa May

    Theresa May has said it is “highly likely” that Russia was responsible for the poisoning of former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, and warned Britain would not tolerate such a “brazen attempt to murder innocent civilians on our soil”.

    In a statement to the House of Commons that triggered a furious response from Moscow, the prime minister said the evidence had shown that Skripal had been targeted by a “military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia”.

    Describing the incident as an “indiscriminate and reckless act”, she said that Boris Johnson had summoned the Russian ambassador to Whitehall and demanded an explanation by the end of Tuesday.

    Russian officials immediately hit back, with Maria Zakharova, the spokeswoman for the Russian foreign minister, calling the remarks “a provocation” and describing the event as a “circus show in the British parliament”.

    Andrei Lugovoi, a Russian member of parliament who stands accused of the 2006 murder of the former Russian agent, Alexander Litvinenko, said May’s decision to point the finger at Moscow so quickly was “at a minimum irresponsible”.

    May addressed MPs after chairing a meeting of the national security council, where senior ministers were told that the nerve agent used was from a group known as Novichok.

    “Based on the positive identification of this chemical agent by world-leading experts at Porton Down, our knowledge that Russia has previously produced this agent and would still be capable of doing so, Russia’s record of conducting state-sponsored assassinations, and our assessment that Russia views some defectors as legitimate targets for assassinations, the government has concluded that it is highly likely that Russia was responsible for the act against Sergei and Yulia Skripal,” she said.

    The prime minister said that left just two plausible explanations for what happened in Salisbury.

    “Either this was a direct act by the Russian state against our country. Or the Russian government lost control of this potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others.”

    She said that Johnson had summoned the Russian ambassador, to account for how the nerve agent had been deployed. The UK government demanded a response by the end of Tuesday, she added.

    However, May made clear that she believed there was already “a backdrop of a well-established pattern of Russian state aggression” – listing the illegal annexation of Crimea, violating the airspace of European countries, and a “sustained campaign of cyber-espionage and disruption”.

    “This has included meddling in elections, and hacking the Danish ministry of defence and the Bundestag, among many others.”

    She also spoke of the extrajudicial killing of terrorists and dissidents outside Russia – and the murder of Litvinenko.

    The government would consider Russia’s response on Wednesday, she said.

    “Should there be no credible response, we will conclude that this action amounts to an unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom,” she said, promising to return to the house with a full range of responsive measures.

    “This attempted murder using a weapons-grade nerve agent in a British town was not just a crime against the Skripals.

    “It was an indiscriminate and reckless act against the United Kingdom, putting the lives of innocent civilians at risk. And we will not tolerate such a brazen attempt to murder innocent civilians on our soil.”

    The tough statement means that a major diplomatic row is now looming between Moscow and London, with expulsions on both sides inevitable. Russia’s hardline ambassador to the UK, Alexander Yakovenko, may well be sent home.

    The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, responded by saying the whole house condemned the “deeply alarming attack” and that a full account was needed from Russian authorities. But he warned against a full breakdown of communications with Moscow.

    “We need to continue seeking a robust dialogue with Russia on all the issues currently dividing our countries, rather than simply cutting off contact and letting the tensions and divisions get worse and potentially even more dangerous,” he said.

    Corbyn then turned to a political attack on the Conservatives, after reports that the party had accepted donations of more than Ł820,000 from Russian oligarchs since May took over leadership. He also asked why the government had not accepted a Labour-led amendment to the sanctions and anti-money laundering bill that would pave the way for so-called Magnitsky powers to punish human rights abuses with asset freezes and visa bans.

    May responded that her government’s simple approach to Moscow was: “Engage but beware.”

    Setting out her previous attack on Russian interference in elections, she said: “There can be no question of business as usual with Russia.”

    On the Magnitsky powers she insisted that the UK already was able to take tough action against individuals, but did promise to try to reach agreement over the amendment.

    In 2007 Gordon Brown kicked out four Russian diplomats in protest at Vladimir Putin’s refusal to extradite Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, the two assassins who put polonium into Alexander Litvinenko’s tea. The Russian foreign ministry expelled four British diplomats.

    On this occasion, Putin is likely to react badly to May’s ultimatum. The UK’s ambassador to Moscow, Laurie Bristow – deputy ambassador at the time of Litvinenko’s murder – is vulnerable.

    Additionally, the Kremlin may take action against the BBC. When relations plummeted over Litvinenko, Moscow closed the St Petersburg office of the British Council and accused its director, Stephen Kinnock – now a Labour MP – of drink driving.

    The use of Novichok – a deadly nerve agent developed in the 1970s and 1980s by the Soviet Union – will be seen as a brutal calling card. It was inevitable that the poison would be discovered, with a trail leading straight back to Moscow.

    The timing of the attack was two weeks before Russia’s presidential election, to be held on Sunday. The calculation may be that the Skripal case galvanises Putin’s conservative base and boosts votes.

    The reaction of backbench MPs to the statement was largely supportive on all sides of the house. The Tory chair of the foreign affairs select committee, Tom Tugendhat, said that the Salisbury attack was “if not an act of war ... certainly a war-like act by the Russian federation”.

    Labour’s Yvette Cooper, who chairs parliament’s home affairs committee, said it was hard to see any alternative to the prime minister’s “very grave conclusion” but asked if any action had been taken to review 14 other cases that she had raised.

    A number of backbench MPs criticised Corbyn for failing to speak out more strongly in the face of what they described as a national security threat. Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said the prime minister had risen to the occasion, but that colleagues would be disappointed by the Labour leader’s partisan attack. His Conservative colleague, Johnny Mercer, described the opposition response as a “shameful moment”. Others argued that the time for dialogue with Moscow had run out.

    In a barbed attack on Corbyn, the Labour MP John Woodcock – a longtime critic of his party leader – welcomed the resilience of May and said the UK would face a national security threat if led by “anyone who did not understand the gravity of the threat which Russia poses”.

    The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is planning to accelerate and expand its cyber-offensive capability over the next five years in response to the present crisis with Russia, according to Whitehall sources.

    The aim is to increase the UK’s ability to strike back against selected targets inside not only Russia but also other states regarded as hostile such as China, North Korea and Iran.

    The MoD is also, in the wake of Salisbury, planning to spend more on chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) defence. The move is an acknowledgement on the part of the MoD that it has paid inadequate attention to the increased danger.

    The White House condemned the attack on Skripal and his daughter, and pledged support to its “closest ally” Britain, but repeatedly refused to drawn on who was responsible or even mention by Russia by name.

    “We’re been monitoring the situation closely, take it very seriously,” press secretary Sarah Sanders, reading from a prepared statement, told reporters. “The use of a highly lethal nerve agent against UK citizens on UK soil is an outrage. The attack was reckless, indiscriminate and irresponsible. We offer the fullest condemnation and we extend our sympathy to the victims and their families and our support to the UK government. We stand by our closest ally in the special relationship that we have.”

    A journalist at the daily briefing pressed: “So you’re not saying that Russia was behind this, then?”

    Sanders parried: “Right now, we are standing with our UK ally. I think they’re still working through even some of the details of that and we’re going to continue to work with the UK and we certainly stand with them throughout this process.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ys-theresa-may


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  16. #16
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    It will be intersting to see how the government responds but I dont think the UK can do in reality.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  17. #17
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    Why would Russia kill a spy knowing the act would be traced back to Russia?

    This has Mossad written all over it.

  18. #18
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    “We need to continue seeking a robust dialogue with Russia on all the issues currently dividing our countries, rather than simply cutting off contact and letting the tensions and divisions get worse and potentially even more dangerous,” he said.
    Chamberlain would be proud of Corbyn. When was the last time dialogue worked with Putin? How exactly will “peace” talks stop Russia from using nerve agent again in U.K. or elsewhere? These third rate dictators laugh at these suggestions.

  19. #19
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    Dialogue worked with the IRA.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Dialogue worked with the IRA.
    You blamed it on Mossad so dialogue with Putin will be about what exactly?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    You blamed it on Mossad so dialogue with Putin will be about what exactly?
    Irrelevant.

    I was referring to your point :

    When was the last time dialogue worked with Putin?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Given that Blair was instrumental in starting a war under false pretenses, which has led to the deaths of over half a million people, I think the British are being a tad hypocritical in complaining "Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear. This outrage cannot go unanswered."
    Ah yes, the two-wrongs-make-a-right defence again.

    Imagine how would you feel if Pakistan deployed a nerve gas weapon in Kolkata.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Why would Russia kill a spy knowing the act would be traced back to Russia?
    Because they feel they can. Putin is poking us in the chest, over and over. They have previous form. Remember Litivinenko?

  24. #24
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    Robust response from the British government so far, and clever of them to bring the US and France into the equation to pull on support. Russia obviously will not want to discuss this further so the consequences will be announced in the Commons on Wednesday.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ah yes, the two-wrongs-make-a-right defence again.

    Imagine how would you feel if Pakistan deployed a nerve gas weapon in Kolkata.
    As you obviously think it important to answer outrages, I could ask you "What answer/retribution from the Iraqis is acceptable to you for the outrageous Iraq War?"

    Anyway, I concede you have a point, especially if you actively opposed the Iraq War. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are two possible explanations for Russia's behavior. 1) The magnitude of Skripal's treachery (the unmasking of 300 agents) required an answer to deter future traitors 2) Skripal was still cooperating with Western spy agencies.

    While it may be unlikely, we should also not be so gullible as to completely dismiss the possibility of a false flag operation. There are enough vested interests who wish to keep the pot of East-West hostility boiling. For example, the US neo-cons would love a ratcheting up of the newly revived Cold War.
    Last edited by Napa; 13th March 2018 at 05:33.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Robust response from the British government so far, and clever of them to bring the US and France into the equation to pull on support. Russia obviously will not want to discuss this further so the consequences will be announced in the Commons on Wednesday.
    May did well yesterday, sounding strong and stable again. The defence of the realm is her forté.

    Crickets from the White House. Trump jumps all over any Islamist terror attack in Europe. Not a word when his pal Putin attacks America’s #1 ally.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    As you obviously think it important to answer outrages, I could ask you "What answer/retribution from the Iraqis is acceptable to you for the outrageous Iraq War?"

    Anyway, I concede you have a point, especially if you actively opposed the Iraq War. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are two possible explanations for Russia's behavior. 1) The magnitude of Skripal's treachery (the unmasking of 300 agents) required an answer to deter future traitors 2) Skripal was still cooperating with Western spy agencies.

    While it may be unlikely, we should also not be so gullible as to completely dismiss the possibility of a false flag operation. There are enough vested interests who wish to keep the pot of East-West hostility boiling. For example, the US neo-cons would love a ratcheting up of the newly revived Cold War.
    The neoconservatives are all gone, replaced by a bunch of incompetent neofascists compromised by Russian money.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The neoconservatives are all gone, replaced by a bunch of incompetent neofascists compromised by Russian money.
    You will be surprised how deeply entrenched the neo-cons and their ilk are in the deep state. Trump's control of the government is rather superficial in many areas, which is why he actually rants at his own AG.

    If you think that it was Russian money rather than 30 years of bipartisan plunder of the US working class by free-trade agreements that led to Trump's victory, then you are really quite gullible.
    Last edited by Napa; 13th March 2018 at 05:49.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    May did well yesterday, sounding strong and stable again. The defence of the realm is her forté.

    Crickets from the White House. Trump jumps all over any Islamist terror attack in Europe. Not a word when his pal Putin attacks America’s #1 ally.
    Don't think Russia has attacked UK. They probably did James Bond style covert operations. Every country needs to do that. UK should register its annoyance through diplomatic channels and let it be.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ah yes, the two-wrongs-make-a-right defence again.

    Imagine how would you feel if Pakistan deployed a nerve gas weapon in Kolkata.
    The question is that how can a country deploy a chemical weapon in UK with disdain? Why there is no fear of repurrcussions? Why a nuclear powered, NATO member P5 country is being treated in such a cavalier manner? Not once but twice.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 13th March 2018 at 14:00.

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    I was sure Israel would be blamed atleast once on the thread...


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I was sure Israel would be blamed atleast once on the thread...
    And why?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Robust response from the British government so far, and clever of them to bring the US and France into the equation to pull on support. Russia obviously will not want to discuss this further so the consequences will be announced in the Commons on Wednesday.
    Bringing in the US and France reeks of weakness IMO.

    I'm guessing the consequences will be along the line of freezing Russian assets.

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    I would not be surprised if this was a false flag attack but if it is an attack by Russia, was Skripal not a traitor? The UK has allowed extra judicial killings of British citizens and yet this is an outrage for us?

    Also, let's allow for investigations to be thoroughly concluded before the PM makes overarching statements.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    May did well yesterday, sounding strong and stable again. The defence of the realm is her forté.

    Crickets from the White House. Trump jumps all over any Islamist terror attack in Europe. Not a word when his pal Putin attacks America’s #1 ally.
    Russians can walk in and use weapons of mass destruction at will whenever they feel like it. Has trump even mentioned anything yet?

    Her hands are tied, allies are not forthcoming and tackling Russia as they should be.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You will be surprised how deeply entrenched the neo-cons and their ilk are in the deep state. Trump's control of the government is rather superficial in many areas, which is why he actually rants at his own AG.

    If you think that it was Russian money rather than 30 years of bipartisan plunder of the US working class by free-trade agreements that led to Trump's victory, then you are really quite gullible.
    No need to be rude.

    I didn't mention how Trump came to power.

    I said that the evil but competent neocons have been replaced by evil and incompetent fascists.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Don't think Russia has attacked UK. They probably did James Bond style covert operations. Every country needs to do that. UK should register its annoyance through diplomatic channels and let it be.
    Polonium umbrellas are one thing.

    Indiscriminate nerve agent weapons which hurt innocent bystanders are another.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Don't think Russia has attacked UK. They probably did James Bond style covert operations. Every country needs to do that. UK should register its annoyance through diplomatic channels and let it be.
    You would expect most nation's secret services to track down double agent traitors, especially the country which has a whole film industry lauding the international derring do of the suave and admired agent 007. I think most Brits are more annoyed that this shows too much competence and reach of the Russians and it makes us nervous. If it was Mossad, we probably would have forgotten about it by now.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So apartheid SA should not have been boycotted, because "sport" ?

    Five hundred patrons of a Salisbury pub have been told to wash all their gear.

    Someone has unleashed a chemical weapon on our streets.

    This outrage cannot go unanswered. The nature of that answer is the decision of the Government.
    It definitely shouldn't go unanswered. Question is what can UK do? Post-Brexit, it is unlikely to muster much support from the EU. It can't go sit in the Kangaroo pocket of the US either, since Trump and his administration have his own set of Russia problems.

    Problem for UK is that any "action" it takes, will just bring its impotency into more focus.

  40. #40
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    Sergei Skripal attack: poisoning claims are nonsense, says Moscow

    Kremlin rejects deadline to explain Skripal case


    Russia has said it will refuse to meet Theresa May’s demand to respond by midnight over its alleged involvement in the poisoning of Sergei Skripal, the former MI6 agent.

    Sergei Lavrov, the foreign minister, called the allegation of Russian involvement “nonsense” and said Moscow would only respond once Britain had passed on information about the attack. “We’ve got nothing to do with it,” he said.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ning-5zslrr3lh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    As you obviously think it important to answer outrages, I could ask you "What answer/retribution from the Iraqis is acceptable to you for the outrageous Iraq War?"

    Anyway, I concede you have a point, especially if you actively opposed the Iraq War. Two wrongs don't make a right. There are two possible explanations for Russia's behavior. 1) The magnitude of Skripal's treachery (the unmasking of 300 agents) required an answer to deter future traitors 2) Skripal was still cooperating with Western spy agencies.

    While it may be unlikely, we should also not be so gullible as to completely dismiss the possibility of a false flag operation. There are enough vested interests who wish to keep the pot of East-West hostility boiling. For example, the US neo-cons would love a ratcheting up of the newly revived Cold War.
    LOL. Indians believe in false flag attacks all of a sudden? Wow, India-Russia bond is strong enough to turn Indians in to conspiracy theorists over night...that too Ivy league grads

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    It definitely shouldn't go unanswered. Question is what can UK do?
    Cancel some visas, prevent oligarchs from money laundering in London.

    Diplomatic pressure on friendly nations to disinvestment from Russia.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Cancel some visas, prevent oligarchs from money laundering in London.

    Diplomatic pressure on friendly nations to disinvestment from Russia.
    Cancel RT news channel's license to broadcast?

    I doubt any of the above would make a difference though.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Cancel some visas, prevent oligarchs from money laundering in London.

    Diplomatic pressure on friendly nations to disinvestment from Russia.
    Can i kindly get a response on my post?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Cancel some visas, prevent oligarchs from money laundering in London.

    Diplomatic pressure on friendly nations to disinvestment from Russia.
    Don't most Russian oligarchs use Cyprus and other banking hideaway based anonymizing tactics to own property in most places anyway?

    But yes, economic measures against the Putin's cronies is about the only measure available. Rest is just fluff.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    No need to be rude.

    I didn't mention how Trump came to power.

    I said that the evil but competent neocons have been replaced by evil and incompetent fascists.
    The whole thesis that Trump is a Putin puppet requires the foundation that Trump's victory was aided by Russian money. You yourself wrote "incompetent neofascists compromised by Russian money".

    Also, the idea that Trump is an incompetent neo-fascist is contrary to facts, facile idea peddled by a hostile media. Firstly the guy has made billions, and no one not extremely competent and with very good judgement makes that much money. Secondly unlike you would expect from a fascist, he hasn't started any wars. Obama on the other hand can claim at least part parentage of the Ukrainian, Syrian and Libyan Wars.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    LOL. Indians believe in false flag attacks all of a sudden? Wow, India-Russia bond is strong enough to turn Indians in to conspiracy theorists over night...that too Ivy league grads
    The alternative to conspiracy theories everywhere is not conspiracy theories nowhere.

  48. #48
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    Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...is-london-home

  49. #49
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    Will the Conservatives return the money donated by Russian oligarchs and allow the passage of a UK version of the Magnitsky Act ? All this rhetoric is nothing without taking substantive action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The whole thesis that Trump is a Putin puppet requires the foundation that Trump's victory was aided by Russian money. You yourself wrote "incompetent neofascists compromised by Russian money".

    Also, the idea that Trump is an incompetent neo-fascist is contrary to facts, facile idea peddled by a hostile media. Firstly the guy has made billions, and no one not extremely competent and with very good judgement makes that much money. Secondly unlike you would expect from a fascist, he hasn't started any wars. Obama on the other hand can claim at least part parentage of the Ukrainian, Syrian and Libyan Wars.
    No he's just accelerated the ones he's inherited. See Afghanistan where the occupation continues. See Iraq and Syria where he's loosened the rules of engagement leading to record civilian casualties that've surpassed even Obama's tally.

    As for his "good judgment" - is that why only Deutsche Bank were the only major commercial bank willing to lend to Trump after his multiple bankruptcies and history of screwing his creditors ? Is that good judgement why he's hired and fired countless members of his administration ? I could talk about his inept handling of Charlottesville, Healthcare and so on but let's stick to the Trump-Russia scandal which explains his muted reaction to an attempted state sponsored assassination plot on foreign soil.

    Firstly FWIW, I don't buy the argument Trump was a Manchurian Candidate that colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election, which isn't illegal anyway, whilst obstruction of justice is hard to prove and Congress won't act in any case. The problem is the MSM has caused controversy fatigue by bombarding folks with so many Trump scandals that people ignore the ones that actually matter.

    Here's the deal. Trump is clearly compromised by his financial dealings with Russia. Russians own at least $98.4 million of Trump properties whilst Eric Trump himself has said that Russian oligarch money has funded his daddy's golf courses and hotels, some of which even has links to Russian organised crime.

    Now back to Deutsche Bank. This Bank was caught in a money laundering scheme that involved $10 BILLION of funds from Russian oligarchs. It's the same bank Trump has received over $3bn worth of loans from since 1998. Now why did the official US investigation of Deutsche Bank's illegal transactions go dormant under Jeff Sessions' Justice Department ?

    But let's say Trump himself is innocent. Clearly there are question marks over the people in his inner circle, hence the 13 indictments and several plea bargains that've been reported. That reflects poorly on his judgement you are applauding by surrounding himself with such corrupt individuals. If this is all a deep state plot, then why does even Steve Bannon recognise Trump and his inner circle are in trouble over money laundering ? Why the plea deals if there's nothing to hide ?

    I'm not saying Trump's corruption is unique, but he symbolises the rotten state of American capitalism and personifies the Swamp of corruption he claimed he'd drain.
    Last edited by Markhor; 13th March 2018 at 15:38.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The alternative to conspiracy theories everywhere is not conspiracy theories nowhere.
    Very cute. So exactly how are you determining the plausibility of an attack being false flag or not?

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    Oh how the mighty have fallen!
    The empire which at it's prime was one of the largest in the world, where the sun never set , whose contributions to world in form of art , science , literature , music etc are incomparable to any other is now squeaking like a little girl in the face of silly , harmless Russian agression.
    I wonder how would the famous Churchill have reacted.


    Tazimi Sirdar

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    The Football Association has made no change to plans for England's presence at this year's World Cup in Russia despite calls to consider a boycott.

    Former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia, Theresa May has told MPs.

    The PM said it was "highly likely" Russia was responsible for the attack.

    "England's participation in the World Cup ought to be in question," Labour MP John Woodcock told BBC Radio 5 live.

    "Certainly there should be no question of government officials, dignitaries, or senior members of the FA going over there."

    The 2018 World Cup runs from 14 June to 15 July. England start their campaign against Tunisia in Volgograd on 18 June.

    Woodcock, the MP for Barrow and Furness and chair of Labour's backbench foreign affairs committee, said he had not yet personally decided if it would be right for England to play in the World Cup.

    "I recognise this is the pinnacle of a player's career, and they may only get one shot at it, so it's not a step that should be taken lightly," he told 5 live's Anna Foster.

    "There needs to be a mix of the FA itself and the team itself taking a view on this. It's not something which I think should be universally directed by anyone in government, but I do think it ought to be in question."

    Former FA executive David Davies told BBC Radio 5 live he was opposed to any boycott that was not supported by the international community.

    "If I could be convinced that England alone pulling out of the World Cup would upset anybody other than the English then maybe it would be a serious option," he said.

    "I don't think the idea of pulling the team, or encouraging the FA to pull the team out of the World Cup on its own is seriously being considered at the moment, but times change of course."

    Davies said the FA will "want to be convinced of the safety" of the England team and fans during the tournament.

    "It's beyond me that the Russians will want anything but this World Cup to be a huge success, and that involves safety," he added.

    The Foreign Office has summoned Russia's ambassador to provide an explanation for the attack on Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury on 4 March. Both are in a critical condition in hospital.

    The PM said if there was no "credible response" by the end of Tuesday, the UK would conclude there has been an "unlawful use of force" by Moscow.

    Woodcock said the UK should rule out "senior officials, dignitaries and politicians" attending the World Cup and ask its allies to carry out a similar "official level boycott".

    "The idea that people will be effectively endorsing the pomp and ceremony of these occasions, and the prestige which it brings to the host nation, when Russia is carrying out unlawful acts against a fellow member of the UN security council, and several other of its neighbours, it shouldn't be happening," he said.

    "If the officials of the whole of the 29 Nato nations at the least were to refuse to send people, if collectively we were to take the decision that we were not going to go to endorse Russia by being there, I think that would send out a significant message."

    When asked if Russia would care about such a step, Davies said: "I doubt it, but that is the sort of symbolic gesture that yes you can make."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43390718

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    Very cute. So exactly how are you determining the plausibility of an attack being false flag or not?
    Generally by seeing who stands to gain, and by how much damage is acceptable.

    For example 9/11, though it was used by Bush as an excuse to attack Iraq, is unlikely to be a conspiracy because the damage to the US was too great. Here however there is little or no damage to the UK. Still, it is most likely an attack by Russia (which stands to gain as a message to future possible traitors) rather than Western deep state.

    Clear thinking is required to make sense of the world.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The whole thesis that Trump is a Putin puppet requires the foundation that Trump's victory was aided by Russian money. You yourself wrote "incompetent neofascists compromised by Russian money".

    Also, the idea that Trump is an incompetent neo-fascist is contrary to facts, facile idea peddled by a hostile media. Firstly the guy has made billions, and no one not extremely competent and with very good judgement makes that much money. Secondly unlike you would expect from a fascist, he hasn't started any wars. Obama on the other hand can claim at least part parentage of the Ukrainian, Syrian and Libyan Wars.

    Your first case does not follow. That they are compromised does not mean they needed the Russian money to get elected. It merely means that their credibility and judgement in accepting money from citizens of a hostile power is questionable.

    As for your second case, Trump has not made, but inherited his billions. Had he invested them instead of working, he would be richer today. So many of his companies have been declared bankrupt that American banks will not lend to him, so he had to go to Russia.

    Thirdly his business record has no bearing on his ability to be a head of state. He brought no political experience to the role, and according to several such as Tillerson has no understanding of foreign policy.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    No he's just accelerated the ones he's inherited. See Afghanistan where the occupation continues. See Iraq and Syria where he's loosened the rules of engagement leading to record civilian casualties that've surpassed even Obama's tally.
    You confuse various different things. The civilian casualties that you are blaming on Trump are due to the Russian intervention and Assad. Obama bears responsibility for all civilian casualties (including those by Russia and Assad) as it was his CIA (along with the Turks and the Saudis) back in 2011 or 2012 that started arming Syrian rebels leading to the creation of the war.

    Now that the war has been started, maybe the way to less civilian casualties in the long run is to try to end the war quickly by loosening the rules of engagement. The US is already involved in the Afghan War created by Trump's predecessors, now the longest running war in US history.

    As for his "good judgment" - is that why only Deutsche Bank were the only major commercial bank willing to lend to Trump after his multiple bankruptcies and history of screwing his creditors ? Is that good judgement why he's hired and fired countless members of his administration ? I could talk about his inept handling of Charlottesville, Healthcare and so on but let's stick to the Trump-Russia scandal which explains his muted reaction to an attempted state sponsored assassination plot on foreign soil.

    Firstly FWIW, I don't buy the argument Trump was a Manchurian Candidate that colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election, which isn't illegal anyway, whilst obstruction of justice is hard to prove and Congress won't act in any case. The problem is the MSM has caused controversy fatigue by bombarding folks with so many Trump scandals that people ignore the ones that actually matter.
    Agreed about the fatigue part.

    Here's the deal. Trump is clearly compromised by his financial dealings with Russia. Russians own at least $98.4 million of Trump properties whilst Eric Trump himself has said that Russian oligarch money has funded his daddy's golf courses and hotels, some of which even has links to Russian organised crime.

    Now back to Deutsche Bank. This Bank was caught in a money laundering scheme that involved $10 BILLION of funds from Russian oligarchs. It's the same bank Trump has received over $3bn worth of loans from since 1998. Now why did the official US investigation of Deutsche Bank's illegal transactions go dormant under Jeff Sessions' Justice Department ?
    Welcome to the globalized world, certainly not a Trump creation. Much better to have property owned by Russians than by Saudis.

    But let's say Trump himself is innocent. Clearly there are question marks over the people in his inner circle, hence the 13 indictments and several plea bargains that've been reported. That reflects poorly on his judgement you are applauding by surrounding himself with such corrupt individuals. If this is all a deep state plot, then why does even Steve Bannon recognise Trump and his inner circle are in trouble over money laundering ? Why the plea deals if there's nothing to hide ?
    The plea deals are for stuff like "lying to the FBI". For example, Flynn was charged with lying to FBI agents. However, in their notes after his interview the agents wrote there was no reasonable charge.

    Huma Abedin on the other hand blatantly lied to the FBI about not knowing about Clinton's private servers but wasn't charged. Clapper lied to Congress under oath about spying on Americans, and later confessed publicly to saying the "least untruthful" thing. However, he wasn't charged either.

    Basically you may be innocent but a prosecutor can still ruin your life and finances by dragging you through an endless legal process while being paid by the taxpayers.

    Much of the guilty pleas by Trump associates are the establishment's revenge.

    I'm not saying Trump's corruption is unique, but he symbolises the rotten state of American capitalism and personifies the Swamp of corruption he claimed he'd drain.
    Trump is the outsider. The Swamp is the Establishment Political Parties, Media, Lobbyists, Corporations Academics and the Deep State. The Establishment hates Trump with a passion.
    Last edited by Napa; 13th March 2018 at 16:49.

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    Annie Machon ex MI5 intelligence agent worth listening to



  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Your first case does not follow. That they are compromised does not mean they needed the Russian money to get elected. It merely means that their credibility and judgement in accepting money from citizens of a hostile power is questionable.
    1) If Russian money didn't get him elected, then Russia has little power over him. The US media is very vehement in its allegations (or at least was till six months ago) that Trump was elected due to his collusion with Russia.

    2) This entire idea of thinking of Russia as a "hostile power" is the greatest Western stupidity. Russia and the West share the same goals, if you leave aside the juvenile desire of the Establishment of both sides to dominate the world. However, it always comes to a bad end for the West, ask Napoleon and Hitler.

    3) Currently the hostility to Russia has resulted in the refugee influx from Syria. If the West worked with Russia conditions would have been much better in Syria and no refugees. Instead, the Western desire to kick Russia out of the only Mediterranean port it had (Latakia) was part of the reason they started the War. Now Germany has one million Syrian refugees (mostly young men) and Britain is out of the EU (driven largely by the fear of refugees).


    As for your second case, Trump has not made, but inherited his billions. Had he invested them instead of working, he would be richer today. So many of his companies have been declared bankrupt that American banks will not lend to him, so he had to go to Russia.
    1) You have swallowed the line put forward by the US Establishment media hook, line and sinker. Trump did not inherit "billions" he inherited $40 million. From 1975 to 2017, this would equal $40M x 4.45 = $178M.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=1975...hrome&ie=UTF-8

    He is however worth somewhere between $2,000M and $5,000M.

    2) The canard about investing and being richer is from a mainstream media article which ignored income taxes to be paid. Once you account for taxes, it is not true. Also the guy deserves admiration for building a brand and providing employment to tens of thousands than sitting back and only investing his father's wealth. Twenty years ago when I first heard of him, he had already established a successful brand, something very few businessmen succeed in doing.

    3) Firms declaring bankruptcy is the way real estate operates. Real estate goes through cycles and during downturns there are bankruptcies. Banks charge a default risk premium on their lending to take into account that risk. If real estate was not risky, then banks should have been lending money at close to the Treasury rate.

    Thirdly his business record has no bearing on his ability to be a head of state. He brought no political experience to the role, and according to several such as Tillerson has no understanding of foreign policy.
    Apparently you believe "political experience" is a good thing. There is however a reason why the majority of the world despises politicians.
    Last edited by Napa; 13th March 2018 at 17:18.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    Annie Machon ex MI5 intelligence agent worth listening to


    Yeah I came across this too, on the BBC.

    It's a pertinent fact, just becausse the chemical was made in USSR, doesn't mean the Russians did it. It's like saying the UK bombs Yemen, because the weapons are manufactured in the UK.

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    What really irks me is that an investigation is going on but the British government have already claimed Russia is responsible. What's the point of the investigation then?

  60. #60
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    UK calls for UN meeting over spy attack

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43402506

    PM Question time about to start too!

  61. #61
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    Russian diplomats expelled and no Royal/Government visits during the World Cup.

    Putin must be quaking in his boots.

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    Omni shambles from may once again.... huge build up, only for it to be much a do about nothing!

  63. #63
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    UK is letting a chemical attack on its soil going unanswered. Its just too dependent on others to hold even its own sovereignity. Brits need to rethink this strategy.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    UK is letting a chemical attack on its soil going unanswered. Its just too dependent on others to hold even its own sovereignity. Brits need to rethink this strategy.
    Not much they can do, to be fair. Its not like they can declare war. They should respond with every diplomatic and economic means available though.

  65. #65
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    The UK is to expel 23 Russian diplomats, consider new laws to combat spying and look at sanctions as part of a sweeping response to the nerve agent attack in Salisbury, Theresa May has told parliament.

    In a statement to MPs after the expiry of to Russia to explain how one of its nerve agents was used in the attempted murder of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, the prime minister told parliament the expulsions were the biggest such move for 30 years.

    The UK would also cut off all top-level ties with Russia, including revoking an invitation to the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, to visit the UK, and would not send ministers or royals to the football World Cup this summer, May said.

    UK expels 23 Russian diplomats over spy poisoning - Politics live
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    The statement followed an announcement by the Foreign Office that the UK had called for an urgent meeting of the UN security council to update council members on the investigation. EU leaders will also discuss the incident at a summit next week, said the European council president, Donald Tusk.

    May said Russia had treated a UK request to explain how the military-grade nerve agent novichok was used in the attack with “sarcasm, contempt and defiance”, and had offered no credible explanation for it.

    “Their response has demonstrated complete disdain for the gravity of these events,” May told MPs. She said: “There is no alternative conclusion other than the Russian state was responsible for the attempted murder of Mr Skripal and his daughter.”

    It was, she said, “unlawful use of force by the Russian state against the United Kingdom”.

    In response, May said 23 Russian diplomats identified as being involved in intelligence had a week to leave the UK. After the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, four diplomats were expelled in 2007.

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    The government will also look into new legislation to stop suspected intelligence operatives at the UK border, examine fresh sanctions, and efforts for further checks on private jets.

    May said the UK would use “a range of tools from across the full breadth of our national security apparatus in order to counter the threats of hostile state activity”.

    She said: “We will not tolerate the threat to life of British people and others on British soil from the Russian government. Nor will we tolerate such a flagrant breach of Russia’s international obligations.”

    The PM continued: “We will freeze Russian state assets wherever we have evidence that they may be used to threaten the life or property of UK nationals or residents.

    “And, led by the National Crime Agency, we will continue to bring all the capabilities of UK law enforcement to bear against serious criminals and corrupt elites. There is no place for these people – or their money – in our country.”

    On new anti-spying powers, May said the government would urgently develop proposals for new legislative powers to “harden our defences against all forms of hostile state activity”.

    She said: “This will include the addition of a targeted power to detain those suspected of hostile state activity at the UK border. This power is currently only permitted in relation to those suspected of terrorism.”

    The Russian ambassador, Alexander Yakovenko, was called to the Foreign Office shortly before the statement to hear the measures. Afterwards he told Sky News: “I said everything what is done today by the British government is absolutely unacceptable and we consider this provocation.”

    May told MPs it was important to distinguish between the actions of the Russian state and the many Russians who “have made this country their home, abide by our laws and make a contribution which we continue to welcome”.

    She said: “We have no disagreement with the people of Russia. Many of us looked at a post-Soviet Russia with hope. We wanted a better relationship and it is tragic President Putin has chosen to act in this way.”

    Jeremy Corbyn responded by calling the Salisbury incident “an appalling act of violence”. He said: “Nerve agents are abominable if used in any war. It is utterly reckless to use them in a civilian environment.”

    The Labour leader raised the possibility that the nerve agent could have been used by someone else other than Russia, bringing shouts from Conservative MPs.


    Police home in on five key locations in Skripal attempted murder case
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    “The prime minister said on Monday, either this was a direct act by the Russian state or the Russian government lost control of their potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get in the hands of others,” he said.

    Saying any response must be based on clear evidence, Corbyn asked about the role of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), based in The Hague.

    Jeremy Corbyn speaking in the Commons on Wednesday
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    Jeremy Corbyn said any response must be based on clear evidence. Photograph: Handout/Reuters
    He said: “If the government believes that it is still a possibility that Russia negligently lost control of a military-grade nerve agent, what action is being taken through the OPCW with our allies?”

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    Corbyn then asked what response had been made for Russia’s request for a sample of the nerve agent for it to test.

    In response to Corbyn, May said the Russians had already been given the chance to explain where the nerve agent had come from and that the government had sought consensus.

    “It was clear from remarks that were made by backbenchers across the whole of the house on Monday that there is a consensus across the backbenches of this house. I am only sorry that the consensus does not go as far as the right honourable gentleman, who could have taken the opportunity as the UK government has done to condemn the culpability of the Russian state.”

    Several backbench Labour MPs backed May’s stance. Yvette Cooper, the chair of the home affairs select committee, was met with loud cheers when she said the UK government’s conclusion about Russian state involvement “should be met with unequivocal condemnation”. May thanked Cooper, in a pointed comment towards Corbyn, saying: “I know it is representative of many of her friends on the backbenches opposite.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-spy-poisoning


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  66. #66
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    This reminds me of the Yes Minister episode where they are discussing responses to diplomatic crises. The bureaucrat claims that there are always six options:

    1. Do nothing
    2. Issue a statement condemning the act
    3. Lodge an official protest
    4. Cut off aid
    5. Break off diplomatic relations
    6. Declare war

    The trouble is:

    1. If you do nothing, you implicitly agree with the act
    2. If you just issue statements, you look foolish, and impotent
    3. If you lodge a protest, it usually ends up being ignored
    4. You can't always cut off aid, because you may not be giving any to that country
    5. If you cut off diplomatic relations, you can't negotiate with them anymore
    6. If you declare war, it may just look like you were overreacting

    Decisions, decisions...


    Silver-tongued seraphim circling the spire...
    Gather in the gallery in their best attire...

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    Not much they can do, to be fair. Its not like they can declare war. They should respond with every diplomatic and economic means available though.
    Breaking diplomatic relations and seizure of russian assets should have been an appropriate response.

    This is utter nonsense.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Russian diplomats expelled and no Royal/Government visits during the World Cup.

    Putin must be quaking in his boots.
    It’s effective and proportionate. These diplomats are FSB. Russian intel capability in the U.K. has been degraded.

    A British Magnitsky Act will follow, to hit some kleptocrats in the pocket.

    The bully has been poking Britain in the chest for a while now. Britain has just given him a shove in return. Let’s see if he starts picking on someone else.

  69. #69
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    By putting these measures in place the UK government has conceded Russia is behind the posioning.

    Didn't the UK kick out diplomats after Alexander Litvinenko?

    The UK should simply not take in traitors from Russia and stop playing these spy games against a powerful and relevant nation. 50% of liquefied natural gas is imported from Russia, it's foolish to fall out with them.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    It’s effective and proportionate. These diplomats are FSB. Russian intel capability in the U.K. has been degraded.

    A British Magnitsky Act will follow, to hit some kleptocrats in the pocket.

    The bully has been poking Britain in the chest for a while now. Britain has just given him a shove in return. Let’s see if he starts picking on someone else.
    Shove? More like a playful slap on the wrist. Let's call a spade a spade.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    It’s effective and proportionate. These diplomats are FSB. Russian intel capability in the U.K. has been degraded.

    A British Magnitsky Act will follow, to hit some kleptocrats in the pocket.

    The bully has been poking Britain in the chest for a while now. Britain has just given him a shove in return. Let’s see if he starts picking on someone else.
    If this crime was fought in a court of law, it would be thrown out.

    We have not seen any concrete evidence of Russian involvement other than *probabilities*. How can the PM point the guilt to Russia when the investigation is not over? The entire accusation is underpinned by the notion that the nerve agent used is only made and available in Russia. If this is so, it begs the question, how did Government scientists know the nerve agent was Russian made? They must have had a sample to compare to, right? If so, this means the nerve agent is present outside of Russia.

    Not forgetting. Corbyn questioned the process today in the Commons too, and he is a member of the Privy council. Why would he ask such questions as he did today, if he felt the correct process was followed?

    Also it makes no sense for Russia to carry out an attack using a chemical agent exclusive to Russia which can be traced back to Russia. Why would Russia bring attention upon itself like this? For what reason? Russia have also asked for a sample of the nerve agent, but the UK government have refused.

    Expelling 23 diplomats and cancelling Royal/Government visits to the Russia world cup is not a proportionate response. The Tory party have been accepting donations from Russian oligarchs. Plus Football fans are already claiming blocking visits to the World Cup is useless given England will only get to play 3 matches before being knocked out.

    If we are to believe the narrative, Russia has been bullying the USA and EU members. Plus you have to admit, given the history of lies from our government and MI6, one has to be suspect of anything that comes out of the mouth of the British secret service and Government.

    Thus far it seems the British Government are trying to twist the circumstantial evidence to fit the narrative, rather than posit a narrative based on empirical evidence.

    A proportionate response would be to cease Russian financial assets in the UK, but guess what, UK cannot do this because for example, FTSE 100 companies which are heavily vested in State controlled Russian companies (mainly oil and PMs), would mean Russia could trigger a FTSE collapse by expelling British companies from Russia.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    By putting these measures in place the UK government has conceded Russia is behind the posioning.

    Didn't the UK kick out diplomats after Alexander Litvinenko?

    The UK should simply not take in traitors from Russia and stop playing these spy games against a powerful and relevant nation. 50% of liquefied natural gas is imported from Russia, it's foolish to fall out with them.
    I think it has false flag written all over it.

    Makes no sense for Russia to carry out such an attack and leave a trail of bread crumbs to Putin.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I think it has false flag written all over it.

    Makes no sense for Russia to carry out such an attack and leave a trail of bread crumbs to Putin.
    I wouldn't put it past being a false flag.

    However I'm not sure the British intelligence agencies would risk an operation which could harm many British citizens as there would be no win even if they claimed Russia was behind it. It would make this current government and MI5/6 look incompetent esp since we now have Boris Karpichkov another former spy(traitor) claiming he received prior warning he and others including Sergei Skripal would be targetted in the coming weeks.

    British intelligence are continuing to inflitrate Russian spys into making them double agents. It could well a signal to the UK Russia has had enough and will do something to deter such spys. We also have to remember there is nothing much the UK can do in response.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  74. #74
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    UK has become so weak,so happy to see that, looks like its strongest Allies USA ,EU have also abandoned them,although tbf not much can be done against Russia anymore.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

  75. #75
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    The answer is simple, seize the assets of crooked Russian billionaires.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post

    Russia knows UK cant make a move without NATO. So they can do whatever they wantm
    UK just made a move without NATO.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 14th March 2018 at 20:11.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    I wouldn't put it past being a false flag.

    However I'm not sure the British intelligence agencies would risk an operation which could harm many British citizens as there would be no win even if they claimed Russia was behind it. It would make this current government and MI5/6 look incompetent esp since we now have Boris Karpichkov another former spy(traitor) claiming he received prior warning he and others including Sergei Skripal would be targetted in the coming weeks.

    British intelligence are continuing to inflitrate Russian spys into making them double agents. It could well a signal to the UK Russia has had enough and will do something to deter such spys. We also have to remember there is nothing much the UK can do in response.
    Yup, reality is British secret service are getting a taste of their own medicine now.

    However one motto springs to mind - *To win by deception* - I know, you know, which secret service lives and dies by this motto!

    There is a bigger game being played.

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  78. #78
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    So many of Robin Cook's statements in 2003 still apply now



  79. #79
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    also always worth listening to former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray who has knowledge of how Government/FCO and Former Soviet Governments/Institutions work



  80. #80
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    These incidents are always a reminder that the former British Empire is now simply Britain. Still a nuclear-armed country with a widely spoken language, a tremendous profile and a truly global legacy, however in political terms she has aged, shrunk, and become very much the vulnerable old crone on a walking stick. Currently Russia, China and the US wield and project all of the power, and this is unlikely to change for at least the next 25 years.

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