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  1. #1
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    To Pakistani posters - Do you support Pakistan initiating the Kargil War?

    Look, I'm not creating this thread to start an ugly fight between posters from both nations. I was watching a documentary on the Kargil War. We all know Pakistan initiated the war. And I'm not here to play the blame game.

    The war ended in a disaster and Pakistan ultimately gained nothing from it. All I want to know is do Pakistani people here support the fact that Pakistan initiated the war? If so, what would be your reasons?

    Once again, I promise this is serious thread. I really want to know the opinion of Pakistani posters on this issue.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  2. #2
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    No I don't support it. War only makes innocents on both sides of the LOC suffer. With both sides so heavily armed war won't solve the Kashmir or any dispute. Just look at the most powerful army in the world getting a roasting in Afghanistan.Initiating war however did show that Pak was powerful enough to do it.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    No I don't support it. War only makes innocents on both sides of the LOC suffer. With both sides so heavily armed war won't solve the Kashmir or any dispute. Just look at the most powerful army in the world getting a roasting in Afghanistan.Initiating war however did show that Pak was powerful enough to do it.
    What is the perception of Pakistani people in general on Musharaff regarding this issue?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    "The right operation at the wrong time".

    What kind of operation sends piecemeal soldiers and then abandons them when the going gets tough?

    Also, I wonder when the right time is/was? And you weren't even the PM of the country at the time, Mushy.

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    Indians were lucky that local shepherds were more attentive than their overhyped intelligence network. Saved our ijjat.


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    What is the perception of Pakistani people in general on Musharaff regarding this issue?
    Most Pakistanis believe that Mush just wanted to flex his muscles a bit by telling Nawaz whose boss. Kargil became the playground for it.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    No, I am not an advocate for war unless we are attacked first or unless its a pre-emptive attack to a certain invasion.

  8. #8
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    I want artificial intelligence to take control of the world. And if you've seen Futurama, I'd support Bender's slogan with all my heart.


    it's written. an akmal will never be a hero.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    What is the perception of Pakistani people in general on Musharaff regarding this issue?
    Either he and his military counsel were delusional, or he was misled by international 'allies' as to how it would play out.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    What is the perception of Pakistani people in general on Musharaff regarding this issue?
    Pakistanis don't have the truth shown to them by their governments regarding very war.Remember we had independent media in the last decade and even in the beginning the journalists weren't frank as they are today. The major trend setter of asking tough questions to minsters on live television was started by hamid mir in 2007 after he and his crew office was invaded by federal police and they had assaulted him. It is ironical how today folks abuse him for his anti-military stance. But if it were not for him, our private media would continue to be a lifafa for the people in power.

    Regarding the indo-pak wars, I will summarize the common beliefs of our people. 99.9% of pakistanis believe that we won all wars by huge margin except the 1971 war. In all the wars we won we were almost gonna invade india & colonize it but alas traitors like nawaz sharif in 1999 & ayub khan in 1965 made ceasefire and backstabbed us. Even my educated friends believe the same.

    How do you think Zulfiqar bhutto started his revolution? By claiming that we were very near to beating india and india was on its knee. All we had to do was go for the final blow, instead general ayub betrayed us in tashkent. He had famous line " Me btayunga k tashkent me kia hua tha". He revolted, got elected Pm and was sentenced to death yet never told us k kia hua tha bhai tashkent me.

    Same excuse was given by musharraf during his coup 1999. In fact search for the 1971 war on wiki and read the section "Aftermath in pakistan" and you will be more than surprised at the early reports given to pakistani public by government controlled media.

  11. #11
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    Wow didnot know that Pakistani PPers didnot support Kargil war. Nice to know this. May be i am wrong to think that the present under 35 generation of Indians and Pakistanis cannot bring lasting peace.

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    Even the hamood ur rehman commision that bhutto formed to ***** pakistan's military involvement hid its initial findings for two-three decades. I don't think anybody on this forum except the usual political experts like markhor or KB know that a commision existed back in the 70's to investigate the almighty untouchable armed forces.

    In short, humare logo ko aisa aisa bewakuf bnaya he powers that be ne k majority still don't know the complete facts and would simply like to blame soft targets like nawaz sharif or bhutto. Folks can get abducted in pak on fb by simply implying that army had something to do with anything.

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    Most definitely.
    Caught India with their pants down and thoroughly humiliated in front of the world. It was hilarious watching Indian army squirm, order emergency weapons, run out of wood in order to burn their many fallen soldiers. Military masterclass! Political failure by virtue of Nawaz sharif's cowardice.

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    Order weapons on an emergency basis*

    "achieved nothing" nice try Indian. Nawaz sharif saved your country from another humiliating defeat by a smaller nation, with limited resources. Your asset did his job.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 13th March 2018 at 20:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Most definitely.
    Caught India with their pants down and thoroughly humiliated in front of the world. It was hilarious watching Indian army squirm, order emergency weapons, run out of wood in order to burn their many fallen soldiers. Military masterclass! Political failure by virtue of Nawaz sharif's cowardice.
    And then you woke up from your dream.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Most Pakistanis believe that Mush just wanted to flex his muscles a bit by telling Nawaz whose boss. Kargil became the playground for it.
    It was essentially PakMil refusing to accept the civilian government's attempts at making peace with India -which does involve giving up on Pak's maximum claims on Kashmir in favor of a mutually acceptable solution.

    And this keeps happening over and over again. For those who care about India-Pakistan, they would know about how radical the "backchannel" efforts were in the mid-2000s when Manmohan Singh was PM. Guess what happened? Mumbai attacks in 2008.

    Apparently Nawaz Sharif tried again to get the peace train going, and this time he played a media game with "dawn leaks", and now as a result, he is being pushed out of the political scene.

    Bottomline, PakMil is not going to allow any settlement of the Kashmir issue that doesn't involve Indian govt making major concessions to their satisfaction. And guess what? Indian govt has no incentive to do that - so the stalemate will continue for the near future.


    I so badly wish that we move on from this unnecessary hostility - our people, children, our land, the Kashmiris all of them deserve better than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Most definitely.
    Caught India with their pants down and thoroughly humiliated in front of the world. It was hilarious watching Indian army squirm, order emergency weapons, run out of wood in order to burn their many fallen soldiers. Military masterclass! Political failure by virtue of Nawaz sharif's cowardice.
    LOL. Masterclass in how to fail in every objective - military, tactical and strategic.

  18. #18
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    No sane person will support it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    It was essentially PakMil refusing to accept the civilian government's attempts at making peace with India -which does involve giving up on Pak's maximum claims on Kashmir in favor of a mutually acceptable solution.

    And this keeps happening over and over again. For those who care about India-Pakistan, they would know about how radical the "backchannel" efforts were in the mid-2000s when Manmohan Singh was PM. Guess what happened? Mumbai attacks in 2008.

    Apparently Nawaz Sharif tried again to get the peace train going, and this time he played a media game with "dawn leaks", and now as a result, he is being pushed out of the political scene.

    Bottomline, PakMil is not going to allow any settlement of the Kashmir issue that doesn't involve Indian govt making major concessions to their satisfaction. And guess what? Indian govt has no incentive to do that - so the stalemate will continue for the near future.


    I so badly wish that we move on from this unnecessary hostility - our people, children, our land, the Kashmiris all of them deserve better than this.
    Sorry to be a nag and burst your bubble..... but mid 2000s military was in charge. It was Musharaf who was working on the Chenab formula with India ....

    But anyway carry on.... don't let little facts get in your way.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Sorry to be a nag and burst your bubble..... but mid 2000s military was in charge. It was Musharaf who was working on the Chenab formula with India ....

    But anyway carry on.... don't let little facts get in your way.
    How does that burst any bubble. Are you disputing the timeline?

  21. #21
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    Not my business with regards to the topic but am against all forms of war in general unless under attack with no choice but to defend, violence is not the answer

  22. #22
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    No

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    How does that burst any bubble. Are you disputing the timeline?
    Military was in negotiation with India for maximal solution for Pakistan in the timeline you put forward.... which you said they didn't want to do as the entire focal point of your post. Which turns out to be entirely false on many levels.

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    What most people dont realize was that Kargil war was just an extention of the Siachen War, Musharraf was a Brigader stationed in Sichen when India attacked it, Kargil war was his idea of getting it back.

    Musharraf must have organised and planned it sinced 1992 - there is alot of rants thrown around but if you ask any real military stratgerist it was a military masterclass by Musharraf untill Nawaz Sharif succumbed under pressure. In terms of military - civilian conflict that is just media speculation due to the martial law, fact is that Nawaz and Mush where like two long lost brothers till nawaz tried to sack him.


    If you want to destroy a country, just create enmity between its people and their army - Salahuddin

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    What most people dont realize was that Kargil war was just an extention of the Siachen War, Musharraf was a Brigader stationed in Sichen when India attacked it, Kargil war was his idea of getting it back.

    Musharraf must have organised and planned it sinced 1992 - there is alot of rants thrown around but if you ask any real military stratgerist it was a military masterclass by Musharraf untill Nawaz Sharif succumbed under pressure. In terms of military - civilian conflict that is just media speculation due to the martial law, fact is that Nawaz and Mush where like two long lost brothers till nawaz tried to sack him.
    I don't think many Pakistanis would have doubted the military capability or execution of the operation, which short term was successful. The problem was of course the political fallout which led to Sharif having to abandon it under pressure from the US administration. There was a massive disconnect between the military and the government and that was a farce.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  26. #26
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    Pakistan didn't initiate the war, the Pakistani army did against the state's wishes. It was a textbook example of the power gulf between the state and the army, a gulf that is now bigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't think many Pakistanis would have doubted the military capability or execution of the operation, which short term was successful. The problem was of course the political fallout which led to Sharif having to abandon it under pressure from the US administration. There was a massive disconnect between the military and the government and that was a farce.
    Did pak army expect a all out indian response? Nopes. They thought skrimishes will happen and P5 will interfere to do a ceasefire and they will keep the area. Didnot happen. Mussharaff just didnot misjudged the scale of retaliation from India and its clout in the P5 capitals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Did pak army expect a all out indian response? Nopes. They thought skrimishes will happen and P5 will interfere to do a ceasefire and they will keep the area. Didnot happen. Mussharaff just didnot misjudged the scale of retaliation from India and its clout in the P5 capitals.
    I don't think the Indian response was of any consequence, they would have planned for that, and it would probably just have ended up being another chapter of the Siachen tussles.

    The problem was the political fallout internationally, that is what they failed to anticipate, and that is why a military should always be subordinate to the government.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't think the Indian response was of any consequence, they would have planned for that, and it would probably just have ended up being another chapter of the Siachen tussles.

    The problem was the political fallout internationally, that is what they failed to anticipate, and that is why a military should always be subordinate to the government.
    The Indian forces used artillery and Fighter jets. Something that was not the case in Siachen. The PAF didnot contain IAF as it would mean crossing into Indian territory.

    Ofcourse Pakistan received no international support so the ceasefire didnot come as expected.

    Yes any army should be subordinate to the civilian govt.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The Indian forces used artillery and Fighter jets. Something that was not the case in Siachen. The PAF didnot contain IAF as it would mean crossing into Indian territory.

    Ofcourse Pakistan received no international support so the ceasefire didnot come as expected.

    Yes any army should be subordinate to the civilian govt.
    Well this is the reason why military should always be subordinate to the government, politicians might be useless in a lot of ways, but they are at least responsible for their decisions. Either you need to back elected government to make these decisions or you should just have a military govt. At least that way there is no conflict of interest.


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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Well this is the reason why military should always be subordinate to the government, politicians might be useless in a lot of ways, but they are at least responsible for their decisions. Either you need to back elected government to make these decisions or you should just have a military govt. At least that way there is no conflict of interest.
    Kargil was a big set back for India Pakistan peace process. It was in a way telling India that the politicians cant do jack. The trust deficit hasnot been breached since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Kargil was a big set back for India Pakistan peace process. It was in a way telling India that the politicians cant do jack. The trust deficit hasnot been breached since.
    The Kargil war was 21 years ago, govts and policies will have shifted during that time. If India feels powerless to move on, that says as much for their impotence and lack of vision for the region as it does about Pakistan's military ventures in 1999.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Military was in negotiation with India for maximal solution for Pakistan in the timeline you put forward.... which you said they didn't want to do as the entire focal point of your post. Which turns out to be entirely false on many levels.
    Musharraf and Military, are NOT one and the same. And the fact that Musharraf wasn't able to push through that backchannel deal, speaks volumes about where the PakMil establishment is on the question of peace with India.

    As it stands, it is unlikely that India will be that conciliatory towards Pakistan any time soon, given the power imbalance between the 2 countries. So in hindsight, its a major missed opportunity by Pakistan, not to take advantage of that chance.


    You have your perspective on Kashmir, and what has happened. I have mine. If you have something concrete to cite, I would love to read it and would do so with interest. But if you just want to throw around your opinions as fact, then lets agree to disagree and move on. I'm not really interested in tribal jingoism contests. And this thread's OP explicitly asked to avoid such things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    What most people dont realize was that Kargil war was just an extention of the Siachen War, Musharraf was a Brigader stationed in Sichen when India attacked it, Kargil war was his idea of getting it back.

    Musharraf must have organised and planned it sinced 1992 - there is alot of rants thrown around but if you ask any real military stratgerist it was a military masterclass by Musharraf untill Nawaz Sharif succumbed under pressure. In terms of military - civilian conflict that is just media speculation due to the martial law, fact is that Nawaz and Mush where like two long lost brothers till nawaz tried to sack him.
    This is a very childish way of looking at the Kargil conflict. I can understand where you are coming from - but Siachen was a case where the LOC was vague - it was undemarcated. The LOC is extremely well demarcated, and had decades of historical actions by both armies to back it up. Of course, the Pakistani perspective would prefer to minimize the validity and legality of the LOC. But unfortunately, there are well established norms and protocols on this subject. Besides, trying to "extend" or respond to India's Siachen move, more than 15 years after the fact, is not something any sane logical person would accept as a viable move. As was proved out by the unambiguous and consistent response by EVERYONE in the international community - including Pakistan's favorite uncles - Uncle Sam, Uncle Saud, and even the latest hot favorite, Uncle Cheen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The Kargil war was 21 years ago, govts and policies will have shifted during that time. If India feels powerless to move on, that says as much for their impotence and lack of vision for the region as it does about Pakistan's military ventures in 1999.
    I know PP is super popular and all that but a thread on PP is not same as India's official stance! Just because someone started a thread here doesn't mean the govt. of India is bothered about the Kargil war.

    Pak started it, India won it. Like all other wars between the two countries.

    India moved on from Kargil long ago. But I guess you were trolling as usual!

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    Quote Originally Posted by English August View Post
    I know PP is super popular and all that but a thread on PP is not same as India's official stance! Just because someone started a thread here doesn't mean the govt. of India is bothered about the Kargil war.

    Pak started it, India won it. Like all other wars between the two countries.

    India moved on from Kargil long ago. But I guess you were trolling as usual!
    I don't really have any interest in this thread, which after all was started by an Indian who claimed that it was a genuine query, although to be honest, it could only end one way from an Indian POV, and that was with infantile puny chest thumping by Indians like yourself about winning Pak/India wars. So your usual blurb of trolling makes even less sense than usual.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't really have any interest in this thread, which after all was started by an Indian who claimed that it was a genuine query, although to be honest, it could only end one way from an Indian POV, and that was with infantile puny chest thumping by Indians like yourself about winning Pak/India wars. So your usual blurb of trolling makes even less sense than usual.
    I swear I honestly wanted and still want to know the opinion of Pakistani posters on the issue. I never made this thread to start a bitter war of words between posters of both nations. Believe me.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Kargil was a big set back for India Pakistan peace process. It was in a way telling India that the politicians cant do jack. The trust deficit hasnot been breached since.
    It is India who has to show up. Trying to isolate Pakistan won't work, won't do anything for India, it is temporary and Pakistan can easily sustain any pressure created by India. India will eventually have to go back to table. This cosmetic being tough against Pakistan may help Modi to win re-election but it won't solve pertaining issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I don't really have any interest in this thread, which after all was started by an Indian who claimed that it was a genuine query, although to be honest, it could only end one way from an Indian POV, and that was with infantile puny chest thumping by Indians like yourself about winning Pak/India wars. So your usual blurb of trolling makes even less sense than usual.
    So the guy who claims to have no interest in this thread, comes to this thread, calls India "powerless" and "impotent" without knowing anything about the subject being discussed, and when called out on his ignorance of the events, chooses to respond with "infantile puny chest thumping" line.

    Classic trolling -- one couldn't make this up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    I swear I honestly wanted and still want to know the opinion of Pakistani posters on the issue. I never made this thread to start a bitter war of words between posters of both nations. Believe me.
    I believe you, just don't really understand what you hoped to achieve from it considering you brought up a 20 year old topic where no one has really argued that it was a wise military adventure. But if you have seen an argument which presents the war as a good move from a Pakistani perspective, I'd like to hear it.


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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The Kargil war was 21 years ago, govts and policies will have shifted during that time. If India feels powerless to move on, that says as much for their impotence and lack of vision for the region as it does about Pakistan's military ventures in 1999.
    Whats the guarantee another Kargil wont happen? No govt is willing to take that risk in India. The public backlash will be too big to handle. India is more or less doing fine by keeping away from Pakistan, so why change the status quo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by www787 View Post
    It is India who has to show up. Trying to isolate Pakistan won't work, won't do anything for India, it is temporary and Pakistan can easily sustain any pressure created by India. India will eventually have to go back to table. This cosmetic being tough against Pakistan may help Modi to win re-election but it won't solve pertaining issues.
    India isnt going to the table. It has no interest nothing to gain and hardly under pressure. India is very happy with status quo. It can keep the LoC heated and has the finances to sustain the military expenditure of this. Its doing pretty well economically and there is hardly any terror incident outside Kashmir. Compared to the situation in 2000s when relations were good but terror attacks were everywhere in India. The present situation is ok for India.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I believe you, just don't really understand what you hoped to achieve from it considering you brought up a 20 year old topic where no one has really argued that it was a wise military adventure. But if you have seen an argument which presents the war as a good move from a Pakistani perspective, I'd like to hear it.
    You are incorrect to suggest that PPers have not suggested that Pak won Kargil but NS gave the land back to India and Musharaff had pulled a huge victory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Whats the guarantee another Kargil wont happen? No govt is willing to take that risk in India. The public backlash will be too big to handle. India is more or less doing fine by keeping away from Pakistan, so why change the status quo.
    That is India's choice and they can do whatever they feel suits their interests better. But Pakistan isn't going to stay stuck in a time warp, so if they get presented an alternative opportunity by partnering with China on trade and industry, then they will pursue those options. Same has happened or is happening,with Sri Lanka and Nepal pursuing Chinese partnerships for various reasons.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    That is India's choice and they can do whatever they feel suits their interests better. But Pakistan isn't going to stay stuck in a time warp, so if they get presented an alternative opportunity by partnering with China on trade and industry, then they will pursue those options. Same has happened or is happening,with Sri Lanka and Nepal pursuing Chinese partnerships for various reasons.
    Pakistan can make its choices. Thats not up for debate at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PetroDollars View Post
    What most people dont realize was that Kargil war was just an extention of the Siachen War, Musharraf was a Brigader stationed in Sichen when India attacked it, Kargil war was his idea of getting it back.

    Musharraf must have organised and planned it sinced 1992 - there is alot of rants thrown around but if you ask any real military stratgerist it was a military masterclass by Musharraf untill Nawaz Sharif succumbed under pressure. In terms of military - civilian conflict that is just media speculation due to the martial law, fact is that Nawaz and Mush where like two long lost brothers till nawaz tried to sack him.
    The kargil plan was hatched in the 80's by then ISI head with General Zia after siachen issues. Musharraf only executed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by www787 View Post
    It is India who has to show up. Trying to isolate Pakistan won't work, won't do anything for India, it is temporary and Pakistan can easily sustain any pressure created by India. India will eventually have to go back to table. This cosmetic being tough against Pakistan may help Modi to win re-election but it won't solve pertaining issues.
    Actually I disagree. Current Indian strategy and tactics have shifted the needle into India's favor. Compare to the concessions that Manmohan Singh appeared to be ready to make, it is unlikely that any Indian government, congress or BJP will ever agree to go that far.

    It is not about Modi, who I don't really care for, to be honest. Its about the power balance between the 2 countries. Or I should say imbalance. Chest-thumping pseudo-patriots aside, reality is clear as day as far as the power-balance is concerned. And it doesn't look like its going to change anytime soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    The kargil plan was hatched in the 80's by then ISI head with General Zia after siachen issues. Musharraf only executed it.
    All armies make all kinds of plans. Doesn't mean you should go ahead and execute them. Have to use brains to think whether its going to benefit you or not.

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    Wow just as i expected. Lots of ignorance by my fellow posters with the same old we were winning but nawaz sharif surrendered stuff that has been shoved into our heads since 1999.

    To be fair, it was marvelous strategy at first as we had caught indians by surprise & embarrassed them in the beginning but as soon as they got tiger hill back and we had to retreat, we unnecessarily lost a lot of men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    Wow just as i expected. Lots of ignorance by my fellow posters with the same old we were winning but nawaz sharif surrendered stuff that has been shoved into our heads since 1999.

    To be fair, it was marvelous strategy at first as we had caught indians by surprise & embarrassed them in the beginning but as soon as they got tiger hill back and we had to retreat, we unnecessarily lost a lot of men.
    You seem to know a lot of the war. Why didn't Pakistan use its Air Force? I get the feeling from reading about the war that the tide started to turn after the IAF got involved - why didn't Pakistan go toe to toe on that front, especially if the military brass were the ones calling the shots?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    All armies make all kinds of plans. Doesn't mean you should go ahead and execute them. Have to use brains to think whether its going to benefit you or not.
    That is the reason we had to retreat under increasing international pressure. If there was a just cause, we could have prolonged the conflict. In my eyes, kargil was an utter failure and huge embarrassment for us.

    Ptv jitna aj sach bolta he 1999 me b utna hi bolta tha and for majority of pakistanis, that channel was the only source of information thay had in those days, which is why the delusion that we had india on its knees & were close to winning it. Years later when i read articles in bbc and other international newspaper regarding the conflict, i was embarrassed at how we were being perceived at that time by other nations. It didn't achieve any objective from political or military point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You seem to know a lot of the war. Why didn't Pakistan use its Air Force? I get the feeling from reading about the war that the tide started to turn after the IAF got involved - why didn't Pakistan go toe to toe on that front, especially if the military brass were the ones calling the shots?
    Because IAF had higher quality resources at its disposal, Rafale etc. And PakMil also had to consider that an escalation could potentially get out of control and go beyond just the Kashmir theater. Not to mention it would have exposed the PakMil fiction of "freedom fighters" even more.

    Just achieving tactical surprise is not a sign of military brilliance. PakMil's conduct and execution of the Kargil conflict once the intrusion was discovered really puts their "brilliance" on display.

    Pak soldiers were brave and sacrificing - no doubt on that. But their leadership as usual was way below sub-par. Wars are not won by soldiers, they are won by Generals. And in today's era, they are often won without shots being fired - i.e. by strategists who conduct the hostilities well beyond just head-to-head military sector.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    Because IAF had higher quality resources at its disposal, Rafale etc. And PakMil also had to consider that an escalation could potentially get out of control and go beyond just the Kashmir theater. Not to mention it would have exposed the PakMil fiction of "freedom fighters" even more.
    I believe you mean Mirage 2000s. We only get our first Rafales next year - a good 20 years after Kargil.

    The PAF on the other hand were equipped with F-16s at the time, and the relative quality of both versus the other is debatable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You seem to know a lot of the war. Why didn't Pakistan use its Air Force? I get the feeling from reading about the war that the tide started to turn after the IAF got involved - why didn't Pakistan go toe to toe on that front, especially if the military brass were the ones calling the shots?
    From what i have read it was high altitude war fought in the mountains and air support of both countries had lot of issues providing backup to their soldiers and hitting the right targets. Both sides lost some jets too due to this as anti-aircraft units would not get hit and would take jets & copters out.

    Plus in the beginning of the war, india had accused pak army of initiating the whole conflict, musharraf and nawaz sharif clearly said Pakistan was not involved in it and that it was the mugahideen who were fighting india in kargil for kashmir's independence. They even told the same lie to Clinton who obviously knew what was happening on the ground which is why our guys didn't get the adequate air support as it would then expose the pak government.

    Of course this pathetic excuse of a lie got exposed within days, our guys got stranded and we had to retreat rather poorly because of it suffering lot of casualties in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    Because IAF had higher quality resources at its disposal, Rafale etc. And PakMil also had to consider that an escalation could potentially get out of control and go beyond just the Kashmir theater. Not to mention it would have exposed the PakMil fiction of "freedom fighters" even more.

    Just achieving tactical surprise is not a sign of military brilliance. PakMil's conduct and execution of the Kargil conflict once the intrusion was discovered really puts their "brilliance" on display.

    Pak soldiers were brave and sacrificing - no doubt on that. But their leadership as usual was way below sub-par. Wars are not won by soldiers, they are won by Generals. And in today's era, they are often won without shots being fired - i.e. by strategists who conduct the hostilities well beyond just head-to-head military sector.
    This is what i feel so bad about. I am a huge military documentary fans and read lot about different wars & tactics used by different generals. In my honest opinion, there is nothing worse than a general sending men as tin fodder & then stranding them when the need your leadership the most. Our brave men suffered the same fate & died for nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    This is what i feel so bad about. I am a huge military documentary fans and read lot about different wars & tactics used by different generals. In my honest opinion, there is nothing worse than a general sending men as tin fodder & then stranding them when the need your leadership the most. Our brave men suffered the same fate & died for nothing.
    And then Musharaff romped to power a few months later in front of cheering masses. Makes no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    And then Musharaff romped to power a few months later in front of cheering masses. Makes no sense.
    Bro read post 10 & 51. Then everything will make sense to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You seem to know a lot of the war. Why didn't Pakistan use its Air Force? I get the feeling from reading about the war that the tide started to turn after the IAF got involved - why didn't Pakistan go toe to toe on that front, especially if the military brass were the ones calling the shots?
    Because the PAF was never in the fold regarding the Kargil ops. The PAF was in no position to take on the MKIs Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s of IAF with their limited F 16s that too without BVR capability.

    The PAF would need to operate inside Indian territory to stop the IAF as IAF had not crossed the LoC. That would bring the Indian air defence into play.

    The Pak Army had not expected such a retaliation. They had expected India to first go to international community and then try to take back the territory which will result in a few skrimishes and then International community will force a ceasefire. Pakistan will keep the territory.

    India launched a full fledged response and was ready to go further. No support came to Pakistan and it was in no position to continue the operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    Bro read post 10 & 51. Then everything will make sense to you.
    Those are good points re. this war. But the level of disinformation amongst the Pakistani population goes well beyond that. A few examples:
    - As you noted, Pakistanis believe that they won all wars against India except 1971. Reality: India won every war, except 1965 which was not a win for either side (but Pak started it, and its objectives were not fulfilled, so in a sense lost that war too).
    - They believe Pak soldiers are braver than Indian soldiers. Reality: there is nothing brave about dying in a war. Both armies are staffed by poor soldiers from villages who sign up for this job because they have no other options. No one wants to die in a war on their own accord.
    - Pakistanis believe "they" ruled India for 1000 years. Reality: Pakistan did not exist before 1947! What eventually became Pakistan too was ruled by Mughals and the British. So unless you personally belong to the Mughal dynasty, you didn't rule over anyone!
    - India treats Muslims poorly. Reality: In India, poor / uneducated people get treated poorly, it doesn't matter which religion / caste they come from. In a nation of 1.2 billion people, there would always be someone who feels disenfranchised. There is no systematic discrimination against Muslims in India. If there are Muslims who feel unhappy, there are 10 times more Hindus who feel equally unhappy.
    - India wants to dismantle Pakistani. Reality: no it doesn't. It's too busy solving its own problems.
    - Cricket: Pakistan has more talent. Reality: no it does not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    Bro read post 10 & 51. Then everything will make sense to you.
    You wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by TQ89 View Post
    Regarding the indo-pak wars, I will summarize the common beliefs of our people. 99.9% of pakistanis believe that we won all wars by huge margin except the 1971 war. In all the wars we won we were almost gonna invade india & colonize it but alas traitors like nawaz sharif in 1999 & ayub khan in 1965 made ceasefire and backstabbed us. Even my educated friends believe the same.
    If this is the case, this thread certainly isn't a microcosm of it. Perhaps the 99.9% of Pakistanis haven't shown up yet - and like the OP, I'm interested in getting their views. I would hazard a guess that @the Great Khan (among others) would be interested in contributing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by English August View Post
    Those are good points re. this war. But the level of disinformation amongst the Pakistani population goes well beyond that. A few examples:
    - As you noted, Pakistanis believe that they won all wars against India except 1971. Reality: India won every war, except 1965 which was not a win for either side (but Pak started it, and its objectives were not fulfilled, so in a sense lost that war too).
    - They believe Pak soldiers are braver than Indian soldiers. Reality: there is nothing brave about dying in a war. Both armies are staffed by poor soldiers from villages who sign up for this job because they have no other options. No one wants to die in a war on their own accord.
    - Pakistanis believe "they" ruled India for 1000 years. Reality: Pakistan did not exist before 1947! What eventually became Pakistan too was ruled by Mughals and the British. So unless you personally belong to the Mughal dynasty, you didn't rule over anyone!
    - India treats Muslims poorly. Reality: In India, poor / uneducated people get treated poorly, it doesn't matter which religion / caste they come from. In a nation of 1.2 billion people, there would always be someone who feels disenfranchised. There is no systematic discrimination against Muslims in India. If there are Muslims who feel unhappy, there are 10 times more Hindus who feel equally unhappy.
    - India wants to dismantle Pakistani. Reality: no it doesn't. It's too busy solving its own problems.
    - Cricket: Pakistan has more talent. Reality: no it does not.
    Well those other points might be true or false depending on an individual's perspective but i agree the most with your first and the third point. The war winning & pakistan ruling india for 1000 years is the biggest lie we have been fed throughout our lives.

    I am a big fan of hassan nisar & related to lot of what he says. Do look him up on youtube for these two points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You wrote:



    If this is the case, this thread certainly isn't a microcosm of it. Perhaps the 99.9% of Pakistanis haven't shown up yet - and like the OP, I'm interested in getting their views. I would hazard a guess that @the Great Khan (among others) would be interested in contributing.
    That is because self-analysis is perceived as self hate in south asian culture. Why do you think guys like Mamoon who is my favorite poster on PP gets bashed left, right & center everytime he gives is well informed opinion. The only reason is that he doesn't suck up to the lies & myths which are paraded around as ultimate truth & are force fed to us from small age.

    That figure that i wrote is not summed up on my interaction with folks on this forum or any other forum but rather folks in my life from ranging from college to uni to office to family to family friends. An in case you are wondering who the 0.1% is. That guy is me. Even now when i tell my frends that the 1965 war was initiated by us aka mission gibraltar, they say that they have not heard of this mission & that india invaded wagha which is why we had to defend us. These guys aren't some uneducated patwaris but are bachelors of science in different disciplines from NUST, FAST, UET, UMT & COMSATS.

    What you will find even more confusing as non-pakistani is that even folks who are critical of military like the N-league supporters( everybody in my family & office, my friends are more inclined towards PTI) believe the same lies about winning wars which is pretty ironic considering they are heavy on anti-military stuff.

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    Can't see how a Pakistani can be proud of Kargil war after this. If anything, it sounds more like an embarrassment -

    http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/17/wo...n-t-claim.html

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    This is a thread I made last year regarding indo-pak wars.

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...nswers-please)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You seem to know a lot of the war. Why didn't Pakistan use its Air Force? I get the feeling from reading about the war that the tide started to turn after the IAF got involved - why didn't Pakistan go toe to toe on that front, especially if the military brass were the ones calling the shots?
    PAF had no beyond visual range missiles (BVR) at its disposal.

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    Nope. Kargil is mostly seen as Musharraf going rogue, and the operation itself was foolhardy at best where even the air force was kept in the dark. Pakistani soldiers are one of best in the world, but are usually let down by their commanding officers.

    I'd rather consider it a blunder as Nawaz Sharif had just invited Vajpayee and make him go to Minar-e-Pakistan, where Pakistan resolution was passed and this was akin to an Indian leader embracing the idea of Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
    Nope. Kargil is mostly seen as Musharraf going rogue, and the operation itself was foolhardy at best where even the air force was kept in the dark. Pakistani soldiers are one of best in the world, but are usually let down by their commanding officers.

    I'd rather consider it a blunder as Nawaz Sharif had just invited Vajpayee and make him go to Minar-e-Pakistan, where Pakistan resolution was passed and this was akin to an Indian leader embracing the idea of Pakistan.
    Sir the idea of Pakistan was accepted in 1947. I wonder why people doubt that India has not accepted the idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Sir the idea of Pakistan was accepted in 1947. I wonder why people doubt that India has not accepted the idea.
    See post#59 for commonly held Pakistani myths. This belongs to the same genre. Pakistanis believe that India has not accepted the idea of Pakistan and is forever plotting ways to dismantle it. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but who's going to tell them?

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    All four war between India and Pakistan started by Pakistan.all war mostly have one big factor of " K" means Kashmir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    Musharraf and Military, are NOT one and the same. And the fact that Musharraf wasn't able to push through that backchannel deal, speaks volumes about where the PakMil establishment is on the question of peace with India.

    As it stands, it is unlikely that India will be that conciliatory towards Pakistan any time soon, given the power imbalance between the 2 countries. So in hindsight, its a major missed opportunity by Pakistan, not to take advantage of that chance.


    You have your perspective on Kashmir, and what has happened. I have mine. If you have something concrete to cite, I would love to read it and would do so with interest. But if you just want to throw around your opinions as fact, then lets agree to disagree and move on. I'm not really interested in tribal jingoism contests. And this thread's OP explicitly asked to avoid such things.
    Then stop peddling lies and I won't call you out for it.

    So in your timeline when Musharaf was head of the country and army simultaneously.... he was not in control of anything... that's a new one!! If he wasn't, do explain why this mysterious cabal of junior army officers and civil servants "allowed" him to negotiate with India?

    Rather than go on an elaborate path of nonsensical **, wouldn't it be just easier for you to own up to telling porkies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Sir the idea of Pakistan was accepted in 1947. I wonder why people doubt that India has not accepted the idea.
    Then kindly change your national anthem and exclude sindh from it. I suggest changing it to give South Indians some due prominence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Then kindly change your national anthem and exclude sindh from it. I suggest changing it to give South Indians some due prominence.
    It's quite funny, I'll grant you that. I never looked at it this way, but this must annoy the hell out of all the Pakistanis!! Ouch. There is nothing you can do about it unfortunately.

    It does include "Dravid" (as in "Dravid, Utkal, Bang, ..."), so South Indians are covered!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OoparCut View Post
    Musharraf and Military, are NOT one and the same. And the fact that Musharraf wasn't able to push through that backchannel deal, speaks volumes about where the PakMil establishment is on the question of peace with India.

    As it stands, it is unlikely that India will be that conciliatory towards Pakistan any time soon, given the power imbalance between the 2 countries. So in hindsight, its a major missed opportunity by Pakistan, not to take advantage of that chance.


    You have your perspective on Kashmir, and what has happened. I have mine. If you have something concrete to cite, I would love to read it and would do so with interest. But if you just want to throw around your opinions as fact, then lets agree to disagree and move on. I'm not really interested in tribal jingoism contests. And this thread's OP explicitly asked to avoid such things.
    The same Musharraf took over the country with the help of the Military and now they're not one and the same because it doesn't support the bharat mata aka bollywood drama narrative. Musharraf was the Army and if he can agree to a solution than anyone else would. There could be numerous reasons why the deal didn't fall through..like you said if you have something concrete to cite then please support your absurd claim. You sound like a broken record by now.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 15th March 2018 at 10:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Then kindly change your national anthem and exclude sindh from it. I suggest changing it to give South Indians some due prominence.
    The supreme court of India clarified in a case filed, for deletion of the word sindh from our national anthem, that the word Sindh now represented the Sindhi community in India. The Sindhi community too had opposed the deletion of the word as it depicted their cultural heritage.

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    Kargil was a brilliant plan by Mushy. Indians were caught off guard completely and were in a bit of trouble for a certain period till Israel intervened and showed satellite images of the locations where Pakistani soldiers dressed as militants were hiding.... However even if Israel did not help India, India may have been on the back foot for the time being but a full fledged Indian counter attack would have eliminated Pakistan, India would have survived but Pakistan wouldnt....


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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romali_rotti View Post
    Kargil was a brilliant plan by Mushy. Indians were caught off guard completely and were in a bit of trouble for a certain period till Israel intervened and showed satellite images of the locations where Pakistani soldiers dressed as militants were hiding.... However even if Israel did not help India, India may have been on the back foot for the time being but a full fledged Indian counter attack would have eliminated Pakistan, India would have survived but Pakistan wouldnt....
    Kargil was a 'brilliant operation' if the goal was to achieve instant gratification without looking at the longer term ramifications. Funnily enough, that's how Pakistan's military works as well when they stage a coup and come to power: borrow like mad for some short term gains and leave everything in the lurch when they inevitably burn out after 5-7 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    You wrote:



    If this is the case, this thread certainly isn't a microcosm of it. Perhaps the 99.9% of Pakistanis haven't shown up yet - and like the OP, I'm interested in getting their views. I would hazard a guess that @the Great Khan (among others) would be interested in contributing.
    There was massive criticism in the Pakistani press at the time, I'd be surprised if any leading news outlet was supportive of it. As you have said yourself, long term it made no sense whatsoever so the logic was always suspect no matter how "brilliant an operation" it might have been. The self hatred brigade will of course keep peddling the lies that Pakistani public supported it like blind lemmings, but that is just feeding their own propaganda purpose, bought and paid for most likely.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    There was massive criticism in the Pakistani press at the time, I'd be surprised if any leading news outlet was supportive of it. As you have said yourself, long term it made no sense whatsoever so the logic was always suspect no matter how "brilliant an operation" it might have been. The self hatred brigade will of course keep peddling the lies that Pakistani public supported it like blind lemmings, but that is just feeding their own propaganda purpose, bought and paid for most likely.
    Wasn't Kargil happened before privatization of media? Of did you mean the print media?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    There was massive criticism in the Pakistani press at the time, I'd be surprised if any leading news outlet was supportive of it. As you have said yourself, long term it made no sense whatsoever so the logic was always suspect no matter how "brilliant an operation" it might have been. The self hatred brigade will of course keep peddling the lies that Pakistani public supported it like blind lemmings, but that is just feeding their own propaganda purpose, bought and paid for most likely.
    There was no private media back then, only PTV. We started having private channels in 2002. Of course print media might have been different. I didn't read any pakistani newspaper back then so can't comment on it.

    I remember the whole summer of 1999, PTV showed nothing but patriotic songs of Junaid Jamshed & many others. There was even a big show hosted by moin akhtar in july 1999 where families of martyr soldiers were invited and told k woh shaheed hue hain and shaheed kbhi mrte nhi stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garuda View Post
    Wasn't Kargil happened before privatization of media? Of did you mean the print media?
    I don't know to be honest, I am thinking of digital media. How long has Dawn been around? Or Najam Sethi for that matter. I don't read Urdu newspapers which are probably completely different, but Pakistani English news has always had some fairly outspoken critics, pretty sure there wasn't much praise for the Kargil adventure.


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