Instagram

SportsFever360

International Cricketers XI

Sohail Speaks Yasir's Blog Fazeer's Focus

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 80 of 82
  1. #1
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    323
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Expats leaving Saudi Arabia

    Recently there have been many families leaving saudi arabia as employment opportunities decrease and companies decide not to renew contracts. Also the expat tax was introduced last year and will be getting doubled every year until 2020. I know of one family who had to relocate back to Pakistan because of these reasons and they are taking it hard. They have children who were born and lived their entire lives in Saudi Arabia who are now finding it difficult to adjust to living in a foreign land.

    Has anybody been through this or known someone who has gone through it? What were the reasons for having to move back? How are they adjusting back to life in Pakistan? What did they find are the pro's and con's of moving back? How was the experience?

    Also read an interesting article of how the gulf dream is over and hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis/Indians will have to move back to thier respective countries. This can't be a good thing for South Asia.

  2. #2
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gkb101277867 View Post
    Recently there have been many families leaving saudi arabia as employment opportunities decrease and companies decide not to renew contracts. Also the expat tax was introduced last year and will be getting doubled every year until 2020. I know of one family who had to relocate back to Pakistan because of these reasons and they are taking it hard. They have children who were born and lived their entire lives in Saudi Arabia who are now finding it difficult to adjust to living in a foreign land.

    Has anybody been through this or known someone who has gone through it? What were the reasons for having to move back? How are they adjusting back to life in Pakistan? What did they find are the pro's and con's of moving back? How was the experience?

    Also read an interesting article of how the gulf dream is over and hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis/Indians will have to move back to thier respective countries. This can't be a good thing for South Asia.
    Yes, I moved back from Saudi Arabia - back to the UK. I moved back because I was newly married and didn't want my wife to face the hassle, along with all the restrictions on females, on a daily basis. So the loss of a tax-free salary, free housing in a luxury apartment bloc, free flights back to the UK (or their equivalent) three times a year, the 60 days holidays per annum (three blocks of 30, 15, 15), were more than compensated by a more senior position (albeit having to pay UK tax), more freedoms .... and oh yes, a newly married life!


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  3. #3
    Debut
    Dec 2012
    Venue
    Indian Ocean
    Runs
    16,514
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    The best time to set up shop in the Gulf was in the 1970s through to the 1990s. The boom is over as their own populations increase, and Saudi Arabia was hardly the most appetizing destination among the various choices anyway.

  4. #4
    Debut
    Oct 2004
    Runs
    90,862
    Mentioned
    1630 Post(s)
    Tagged
    15 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yes, I moved back from Saudi Arabia - back to the UK. I moved back because I was newly married and didn't want my wife to face the hassle, along with all the restrictions on females, on a daily basis. So the loss of a tax-free salary, free housing in a luxury apartment bloc, free flights back to the UK (or their equivalent) three times a year, the 60 days holidays per annum (three blocks of 30, 15, 15), were more than compensated by a more senior position (albeit having to pay UK tax), more freedoms .... and oh yes, a newly married life!
    All that is now history - KSA & Middle East are no longer hardship places - salaries arent that hugely different from what people are starting to get at home and also there is a peace of mind factor to consider also.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  5. #5
    Debut
    Dec 2005
    Runs
    12,916
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    May be with oil prices heading towards 80 things can better, but have heard it has been tough lately. This is not saudi , but Abu Dhabi, a relative who's lived there for 20 years sent his wife and kids back last year and I think he has plans to move back for good in a year or two. He's made lots of money though , so money may not be a problem but the kids especially the older one is not happy. She has no friends, probably missing dad as well so can imagine it can be tough.

  6. #6
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    5,261
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Only wealthy or desperate people will go there. With the situation in Saudi with them opening clubs and what not trouble is looming there as well.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  7. #7
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    SA is the next boom in Middle East as much as it pains me to say it.

    People talking of boom gone in SA are woefully ignorant, need an education, and 20/20 vision.

    There never was a period of boom years in SA. SA restricted foreign investment to the max, but with the incumbent Saudi Prince, he is opening up SA to the foreign markets and legislation (Think Manmohan Singh early 90s). Look up the Aramco IPO - as an example.

    Meaning, the Expats who are leaving now, are making a big mistake!

  8. #8
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Only wealthy or desperate people will go there. With the situation in Saudi with them opening clubs and what not trouble is looming there as well.
    What does opening clubs have to do with anything. There are lot more clubs where you currently reside.

  9. #9
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    1,646
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I have heard the same from family members who are saying they are forced to think about moving back due to high taxes and lack of opportunities. I think arabs are finally waking up to the realities of the 21st century where the world doesn't need their oil to run everything.

    I have cousins who lived in SA their whole life then were forced to come back to Pakistan for higher education since there is no visa for people over 18 and not working.

  10. #10
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    5,261
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    What does opening clubs have to do with anything. There are lot more clubs where you currently reside.
    But we don't claim to be all holy like the Saudi's do. You can't call the Brits hypocrites at all unlike the Saudi's who are full off it. There are no religious monuments here the the holy Khana-e-Kabba. Would be better if they concentrated on human rights instead of hypocrisy. I mentioned clubs to prove that Saudi's are hypocrites. Do you live there that you love them so much?


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  11. #11
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    But we don't claim to be all holy like the Saudi's do. You can't call the Brits hypocrites at all unlike the Saudi's who are full off it. There are no religious monuments here the the holy Khana-e-Kabba. Would be better if they concentrated on human rights instead of hypocrisy. I mentioned clubs to prove that Saudi's are hypocrites. Do you live there that you love them so much?
    I have visited it extensively and have lived there much more than you have or probably ever will. Why are you going on about human rights? Cutting hands is part of the religion and they do it to follow the EXACT directions mentioned in the Quran. Does that count within your askewed and biased version of human rights?

    Talking about hypocrisy, why haven't you gone and lived there since it has all your beloved religious monuments and you are the "self proclaimed defender" of Islam.

  12. #12
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    5,261
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    I have visited it extensively and have lived there much more than you have or probably ever will. Why are you going on about human rights? Cutting hands is part of the religion and they do it to follow the EXACT directions mentioned in the Quran. Does that count within your askewed and biased version of human rights?

    Talking about hypocrisy, why haven't you gone and lived there since it has all your beloved religious monuments and you are the "self proclaimed defender" of Islam.
    You don't need to worry I have visited neither is it related to the subject other then I am a well travelled man. Oh I see so in your book Saudi's observe human rights well! I think you need a reality check over how racist those people are for starters! Perhaps you should check how maids from poorer countries are treated there or do I need to prove it to you? How about chopping the hands of the elite who are responsible for crimes! Na! they only do it to those who can't defend themselves, these rules never apply to the playboy Sheikhs or those with plenty of riyal! Islam does not blindly say chop a persons hands off without giving them the opportunity to explain, a hungry and poor man has no other option other then to steal food.

    Defending Islam and defending Arab's are two very different things. Where have I said anything against Islam? I don't need to live there to be a good Muslim just like despite living near holy monuments moist Saudi's are terrible, terrible people.
    Last edited by PakLFC; 14th April 2018 at 21:03.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  13. #13
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    You don't need to worry I have visited neither is it related to the subject other then I am a well travelled man. Oh I see so in your book Saudi's observe human rights well! I think you need a reality check over how racist those people are for starters! Perhaps you should check how maids from poorer countries are treated there or do I need to prove it to you? How about chopping the hands of the elite who are responsible for crimes! Na! they only do it to those who can't defend themselves, these rules never apply to the playboy Sheikhs or those with plenty of riyal! Islam does not blindly say chop a persons hands off without giving them the opportunity to explain, a hungry and poor man has no other option other then to steal food.

    Defending Islam and defending Arab's are two very different things. Where have I said anything against Islam? I don't need to live there to be a good Muslim just like despite living near holy monuments moist Saudi's are terrible, terrible people.
    Agree with all you said regarding them (most) being terrible, spoiled, pampered people. But the same is true for most Arabs in the Gulf states. You say that you don't claim to be Holy like the Saudis it's just because that you are not a Saudi. They are the ones who invented the religion and hold all the copyrights and of course have most of the major "monuments" associated with it, same goes with other religions like the Christians have the Vatican, Jews have the Temple Mount, Aqsa, The Wailing Wall etc.

    "How about chopping the hands of the elite who are responsible for crimes! Na! they only do it to those who can't defend themselves, these rules never apply to the playboy Sheikhs or those with plenty of riyal! Islam does not blindly say chop a persons hands off without giving them the opportunity to explain, a hungry and poor man has no other option other then to steal food. "

    The rich have always and will always absued the system and got away scott free. It is the poor that suffers and if there is such a verse encouraging the cutting off the hands of a thief then it will always be used to benefit the agendas of the people in power and against the poor. Maybe the terms and conditions should have been clearly laid out for such important matters and intense punishments as there are hundreds of verses just repeating rhetoric which could have been put to better use.

  14. #14
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's time the Saudis step up. As recent as December 2017 I was in Saudi and things are changing. The newer generation Saudis are smart, educated, and willing to work..it's the previous generation that banked on expats to do everything for them and turned their people in to lazy sacks.

    To be honest, I spent 17 years in Saudi and will admit that my family milked the hell out of that place. Life was smooth, things were cheap, and jobs were plentiful, to add to that everyone saved a lot of money. But relying too much on expats really left the Saudi people behind. While what MBS is doing is not good for the expats...it will be a game changer for his own people.

  15. #15
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    It's time the Saudis step up. As recent as December 2017 I was in Saudi and things are changing. The newer generation Saudis are smart, educated, and willing to work..it's the previous generation that banked on expats to do everything for them and turned their people in to lazy sacks.

    To be honest, I spent 17 years in Saudi and will admit that my family milked the hell out of that place. Life was smooth, things were cheap, and jobs were plentiful, to add to that everyone saved a lot of money. But relying too much on expats really left the Saudi people behind. While what MBS is doing is not good for the expats...it will be a game changer for his own people.
    Exactly, the local populace will now have to learn to fend for themselves or perish as most of the expats will be leaving given the increase in taxes. The UAE took a similar route but Sheikh Mohammad actually had the vision to educating the youth and making them self reliant quite a while back.

  16. #16
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    5,261
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    Agree with all you said regarding them (most) being terrible, spoiled, pampered people. But the same is true for most Arabs in the Gulf states. You say that you don't claim to be Holy like the Saudis it's just because that you are not a Saudi. They are the ones who invented the religion and hold all the copyrights and of course have most of the major "monuments" associated with it, same goes with other religions like the Christians have the Vatican, Jews have the Temple Mount, Aqsa, The Wailing Wall etc.

    "How about chopping the hands of the elite who are responsible for crimes! Na! they only do it to those who can't defend themselves, these rules never apply to the playboy Sheikhs or those with plenty of riyal! Islam does not blindly say chop a persons hands off without giving them the opportunity to explain, a hungry and poor man has no other option other then to steal food. "

    The rich have always and will always absued the system and got away scott free. It is the poor that suffers and if there is such a verse encouraging the cutting off the hands of a thief then it will always be used to benefit the agendas of the people in power and against the poor. Maybe the terms and conditions should have been clearly laid out for such important matters and intense punishments as there are hundreds of verses just repeating rhetoric which could have been put to better use.
    I fail to see what your point is in the first paragraph? The point I am making is that unlike other Arab's Saudi's live on what is considered as being holy ground. The have the keys to the Kaaba and all that, the Kuwaitis and all others do not. No Saudi's did not "invent" the religion at all. What you talking about!!? Italians where the Pope is seated and considered to be the home of Catholicism don't have half the chip on their shoulder that Saudi's do!

    That is what I am saying that Saudi's choose what what is suitable to them calling it Islam. At least in the west they try to give justice to everyone despite most in reality being atheists. The west is true to themselves so can't be called hypocrites. London or France doesn't claim to be the home of any religion at all. Mt original point was that people from Pakistan etc think Saudi's as being real Muslim's feeling that is where they should go. Of course. most uneducated people from the sub continent will find it easier to get slave jobs in the Middle East then good ones in the west.

    The terms are clear as far as I know. Saudi's in particular twist those terms to suit themselves.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  17. #17
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I fail to see what your point is in the first paragraph? The point I am making is that unlike other Arab's Saudi's live on what is considered as being holy ground. The have the keys to the Kaaba and all that, the Kuwaitis and all others do not. No Saudi's did not "invent" the religion at all. What you talking about!!? Italians where the Pope is seated and considered to be the home of Catholicism don't have half the chip on their shoulder that Saudi's do!

    That is what I am saying that Saudi's choose what what is suitable to them calling it Islam. At least in the west they try to give justice to everyone despite most in reality being atheists. The west is true to themselves so can't be called hypocrites. London or France doesn't claim to be the home of any religion at all. Mt original point was that people from Pakistan etc think Saudi's as being real Muslim's feeling that is where they should go. Of course. most uneducated people from the sub continent will find it easier to get slave jobs in the Middle East then good ones in the west.

    The terms are clear as far as I know. Saudi's in particular twist those terms to suit themselves.
    Yes they did invent the religion (or modify the preceding Abrahamic religions) and claim certain grounds to be holy. If you believe it then that's your prerogative but don't try to convince rational beings otherwise.

    Also the Italians and the Pope who you claim don't have half the chip on their shoulders as the Saudis, I suggest you go read history, Saudis will come out like "milk washed angel babies" after the comparison.

  18. #18
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Venue
    Jurassic Park.
    Runs
    5,261
    Mentioned
    67 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    Yes they did invent the religion (or modify the preceding Abrahamic religions) and claim certain grounds to be holy. If you believe it then that's your prerogative but don't try to convince rational beings otherwise.

    Also the Italians and the Pope who you claim don't have half the chip on their shoulders as the Saudis, I suggest you go read history, Saudis will come out like "milk washed angel babies" after the comparison.
    No one is trying to convince you off anything. No they did not do anything like you are suggesting, I am not accepting it for a minute. I know you are not forcing your views on me before you say that. I don't need to read history. Go to Italy and see how Italians are much better people then Arabs are today. No need to go back a zillion years instead live in the present.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  19. #19
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    No one is trying to convince you off anything. No they did not do anything like you are suggesting, I am not accepting it for a minute. I know you are not forcing your views on me before you say that. I don't need to read history. Go to Italy and see how Italians are much better people then Arabs are today. No need to go back a zillion years instead live in the present.
    Alright, fair enough.

  20. #20
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    The best time to set up shop in the Gulf was in the 1970s through to the 1990s. The boom is over as their own populations increase, and Saudi Arabia was hardly the most appetizing destination among the various choices anyway.
    It obviously was otherwise why is it a problem for those who are now having to leave? You can only assume the prospects aren't so appetising for those returning to their home countries.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  21. #21
    Debut
    Oct 2010
    Runs
    2,087
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    SA is the next boom in Middle East as much as it pains me to say it.

    People talking of boom gone in SA are woefully ignorant, need an education, and 20/20 vision.

    There never was a period of boom years in SA. SA restricted foreign investment to the max, but with the incumbent Saudi Prince, he is opening up SA to the foreign markets and legislation (Think Manmohan Singh early 90s). Look up the Aramco IPO - as an example.

    Meaning, the Expats who are leaving now, are making a big mistake!
    Couldn't agree more. Have just moved to KSA and honestly speaking, the real boom is just around the corner. All you've got to do is research on the long-term projects/investments that KSA is now exploring. It is immense.
    Give it another 10 years, and KSA will surpass UAE with ease in terms of foreign investment.


    Proud Fan of FC Barcelona and Pakistan Cricket Team

  22. #22
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Meaning, the Expats who are leaving now, are making a big mistake!
    I suggest you do some research into some of the new regulations and other changes that Saudi Arabia has started or is planning to bring in over the next few years, such as needing to renew the visa every year (from every two years), the levy on expat dependents (already starting to become prohibitive for many low paid/manual workers from 3rd world countries, and which will gradually increase), the 'Saudi employee only' in a dozen+ retail sectors and shopping malls, the phasing out of all expats in public/state jobs, other than those in "key" (for "key" read highly paid Westerners) areas.

    Most expats, especially those from 3rd world countries, currently leaving are not 'making a big mistake', they simply have no choice but to leave! And the Saudi authorities are aiming to have the numbers leaving go on increasing month-by-month, year-by-year.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  23. #23
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I suggest you do some research into some of the new regulations and other changes that Saudi Arabia has started or is planning to bring in over the next few years, such as needing to renew the visa every year (from every two years), the levy on expat dependents (already starting to become prohibitive for many low paid/manual workers from 3rd world countries, and which will gradually increase), the 'Saudi employee only' in a dozen+ retail sectors and shopping malls, the phasing out of all expats in public/state jobs, other than those in "key" (for "key" read highly paid Westerners) areas.

    Most expats, especially those from 3rd world countries, currently leaving are not 'making a big mistake', they simply have no choice but to leave! And the Saudi authorities are forcing to have the numbers leaving go on increasing month-by-month, year-by-year.
    Shh, do not talk sense.

    Also fixed.
    Last edited by DeadBall; 14th April 2018 at 23:54.

  24. #24
    Debut
    Jan 2013
    Runs
    1,646
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    It seems like more and more countries are closing their doors to immigrants in favor of their own population. I hope this stops the brain drain in Pakistan so hopefully we can get some good competent leaders in all sectors.

  25. #25
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBall View Post
    Exactly, the local populace will now have to learn to fend for themselves or perish as most of the expats will be leaving given the increase in taxes. The UAE took a similar route but Sheikh Mohammad actually had the vision to educating the youth and making them self reliant quite a while back.
    The UAE is not really comparable due to to its small population. Saudi Arabia is the true 'gorilla' of the Middle East. The Saudi kids who went through a private education are competent....the money spent on them really shows through in their personality, but the ones who went through government education are lacking behind.

    Saudi Arabia will rely on external human capital for the next decade at minimum to train their people and bring them up to speed. Saudis have gotten smart and now realize investing in Desis and Filipinos is not the smartest move. Rather pay more for white people and ensure their people learn a few things or two.

  26. #26
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Jeddah, Melbourne
    Runs
    1,345
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If anyone here thinks that the "new" generation of Saudis are competent enough to hold the burden of Saudi economy then they don't know jack about Saudis.

    This generation of Saudi kids is the typical gold-spoon fed, burger awaam who can't get enough of Western cultures and trends and are far away from conservative Islam. Their lives revolve around shisha cafes, desert safaris in their Land Cruisers, buying the latest Mustang, latest iPhone, trips to UK/US and an annual visit to their father's business.

    Hardly 5-10% of these kids are utilizing their Western degrees to contribute in the Saudi Economy.

    KSA still thrives because of expats since the locals can't be bothered enough to learn the technical know-how of modern industry and apply it. They are only interested in employing either easily satisfied, desperate desis or competent white dudes who'll demand 3 times the salary.

    I don't understand this sudden confidence in the locals but I can see KSA going down rapidly if the expats keep leaving at the rate that they are.

    Mark my words, these guys will come begging for desis when they fail (as usual).

  27. #27
    Debut
    Apr 2018
    Runs
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Are tax benefits gone? I guess it was one of the biggest reason many expats saved lots of money.

  28. #28
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I suggest you do some research into some of the new regulations and other changes that Saudi Arabia has started or is planning to bring in over the next few years, such as needing to renew the visa every year (from every two years), the levy on expat dependents (already starting to become prohibitive for many low paid/manual workers from 3rd world countries, and which will gradually increase), the 'Saudi employee only' in a dozen+ retail sectors and shopping malls, the phasing out of all expats in public/state jobs, other than those in "key" (for "key" read highly paid Westerners) areas.

    Most expats, especially those from 3rd world countries, currently leaving are not 'making a big mistake', they simply have no choice but to leave! And the Saudi authorities are aiming to have the numbers leaving go on increasing month-by-month, year-by-year.
    So expats are leaving because they have to renew their visas every year? Why don't you fess up to the real reason why expats are leaving - end of tax free earnings/incentives.

    Plus my comment was in reference to the SA economy. I suggest you do some research and see how SA will leave the region for dust when it comes to the economy in the next 10 years and beyond. You've probably read about the crown prince travelling the world etc? He's not doing so for the sake of air miles. He's changing SA and slowly modernising SA. Women allowed to drive now, and the first cinema in 30 odds years. The hardline islamic rule is coming to an end.

    SA is opening its doors to the world.

    You talk of leaving, I know a fair few are moving to SA and setting up businesses.

  29. #29
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mankuTimma View Post
    Are tax benefits gone? I guess it was one of the biggest reason many expats saved lots of money.
    It was the main reason people from the UK went there for sure, don't know about people from Asia, although the great plus point of them turning down immigrants from Asia is that finally desis will be free from having to complain about treatment by Arabs. Surely a win-win situation for all.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  30. #30
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    So expats are leaving because they have to renew their visas every year? Why don't you fess up to the real reason why expats are leaving - end of tax free earnings/incentives.
    I suggest you read my entire post, and all the points I've mentioned, rather than focusing just on the first point whilst ignoring the rest (the first point in itself is within the context of the rest of the post). So do try and read everything within context, now there's a good chap.

    You talk of leaving, I know a fair few are moving to SA and setting up businesses.
    No one can "move to SA to setup businesses". Expats have to be 'sponsored' by Saudi employers (and as my post pointed out, the SA govt. is starting to put restrictions on employers in various sectors of the SA economy hiring foreign expats), whilst foreign businesses require Saudi partners to operate. Stop showing your ignorance. Appears as if your knowledge on the topic is entirely based upon the PR exercise currently being undertaken by the new Prince and those around him.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  31. #31
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It was the main reason people from the UK went there for sure, don't know about people from Asia, although the great plus point of them turning down immigrants from Asia is that finally desis will be free from having to complain about treatment by Arabs. Surely a win-win situation for all.
    Exactly. Tax free incentives were the main attraction and we got expats trying to claim visa renewals per year are the main reason why expats are leaving.

  32. #32
    Debut
    Apr 2018
    Runs
    324
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It was the main reason people from the UK went there for sure, don't know about people from Asia, although the great plus point of them turning down immigrants from Asia is that finally desis will be free from having to complain about treatment by Arabs. Surely a win-win situation for all.
    Many of my relatives in Gulf countries not see much whining from them.

  33. #33
    Debut
    Oct 2014
    Venue
    Chicago, IL
    Runs
    7,347
    Mentioned
    257 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gkb101277867 View Post
    Recently there have been many families leaving saudi arabia as employment opportunities decrease and companies decide not to renew contracts. Also the expat tax was introduced last year and will be getting doubled every year until 2020. I know of one family who had to relocate back to Pakistan because of these reasons and they are taking it hard. They have children who were born and lived their entire lives in Saudi Arabia who are now finding it difficult to adjust to living in a foreign land.

    Has anybody been through this or known someone who has gone through it? What were the reasons for having to move back? How are they adjusting back to life in Pakistan? What did they find are the pro's and con's of moving back? How was the experience?

    Also read an interesting article of how the gulf dream is over and hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis/Indians will have to move back to thier respective countries. This can't be a good thing for South Asia.
    My parents will be one of them in August of this year.

  34. #34
    Debut
    Nov 2007
    Runs
    12,562
    Mentioned
    132 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    As Saudi Arabia opens up both economically and socially surely the number of foreign workers will go up, not down.

  35. #35
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    As Saudi Arabia opens up both economically and socially surely the number of foreign workers will go up, not down.
    Correct. Hence why expats leaving now are making a mistake.

    I am also reading Saudi will have its first Trance DJ party on June 17th with none other than Armin VB!

    Things are changing for the better in SA it seems!

  36. #36
    Debut
    Oct 2004
    Runs
    90,862
    Mentioned
    1630 Post(s)
    Tagged
    15 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Correct. Hence why expats leaving now are making a mistake.

    I am also reading Saudi will have its first Trance DJ party on June 17th with none other than Armin VB!

    Things are changing for the better in SA it seems!
    your idea of 'for the better' is alarming.


    For the latest updates on Cricket, follow @PakPassion on Twitter

  37. #37
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mankuTimma View Post
    Many of my relatives in Gulf countries not see much whining from them.
    Most of the whining is on here to be fair, perhaps it's wrong to think of these forums as representative.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  38. #38
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MenInG View Post
    your idea of 'for the better' is alarming.
    I should point out the event will be alcohol/drug free of course.

    SA was always seen as backwards etc, and now the Crown prince is slowly but changing the perception but people are still complaining? We should be celebrating the fact that hardline Islam is hopefully coming at an end with the new prince. Women allowed to drive now, cinemas opening and now music events. I think it's a step in the right direction. It's precisely what will appeal to foreigners.

  39. #39
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    I should point out the event will be alcohol/drug free of course.

    SA was always seen as backwards etc, and now the Crown prince is slowly but changing the perception but people are still complaining? We should be celebrating the fact that hardline Islam is hopefully coming at an end with the new prince. Women allowed to drive now, cinemas opening and now music events. I think it's a step in the right direction. It's precisely what will appeal to foreigners.


    Genuine questions:
    Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? For any length of time that is. And if you have, was that on a Pakistani, UK, US, Canadian or some other passport? And lastly, how were you treated? Same as any other Saudi (or Gulf states Arab), or as a 'Westerner', or as a Pakistani?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  40. #40
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yossarian. I have lived in SA.

    But I really don't feel like debating with you.

  41. #41
    Debut
    May 2010
    Runs
    8,352
    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Situation is bad here, and all my friends are concerned, business is down, and most of my friends have already sent most of their families home.

  42. #42
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Strike! View Post
    Situation is bad here, and all my friends are concerned, business is down, and most of my friends have already sent most of their families home.
    Hopefully it gets better, however the experts here who have never even been there seem to know better.

  43. #43
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R3verse Swing View Post
    Yossarian. I have lived in SA.

    But I really don't feel like debating with you.
    I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  44. #44
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Strike! View Post
    Situation is bad here, and all my friends are concerned, business is down, and most of my friends have already sent most of their families home.
    Add that to MBS cosying up to Israel and the West, alienating the powerful clergy, extorting money from the wealthy Saudi business leaders, and last but not least, making sworn enemies out of virtually all of the thousand+ of his cousin Saudi Princes due to the manner in which his father, King Salman, has allowed MBS to break all the rules of the House of Saud clan and grab all the power for himself (when others have greater rights to them under the system laid down by Abdulaziz Ibn Saud), all lays the groundwork for SA to become another Syria - but on a far larger scale and with vastly greater repercusssions.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  45. #45
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    If anyone here thinks that the "new" generation of Saudis are competent enough to hold the burden of Saudi economy then they don't know jack about Saudis.

    This generation of Saudi kids is the typical gold-spoon fed, burger awaam who can't get enough of Western cultures and trends and are far away from conservative Islam. Their lives revolve around shisha cafes, desert safaris in their Land Cruisers, buying the latest Mustang, latest iPhone, trips to UK/US and an annual visit to their father's business.

    Hardly 5-10% of these kids are utilizing their Western degrees to contribute in the Saudi Economy.

    KSA still thrives because of expats since the locals can't be bothered enough to learn the technical know-how of modern industry and apply it. They are only interested in employing either easily satisfied, desperate desis or competent white dudes who'll demand 3 times the salary.

    I don't understand this sudden confidence in the locals but I can see KSA going down rapidly if the expats keep leaving at the rate that they are.

    Mark my words, these guys will come begging for desis when they fail (as usual).
    Typical desi post. Let's get some facts straight. They don't need us anymore...the younger generation has really moved on and while they're not the brightest yet...they have all the important jobs and the right training. Also, anyone who was on the government payroll to attend universities in the west or in Saudi are required by law to work in certain sectors based on their ability. The entire PIF (largest sovereign wealth fund in the world) is Saudi..there's not a single brown person and most of the people training them are Wall Street bankers who are nothing but ivy league grads.

    If you think Saudis will never grow up then you have no idea how much Saudi schools have changed and have no idea on how Saudi universities are today. I suggest you speak to a few younger Saudis and determine how far they've come. It's nothing like the 90s or 2000s anymore.

  46. #46
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    Typical desi post. Let's get some facts straight. They don't need us anymore...the younger generation has really moved on and while they're not the brightest yet...they have all the important jobs and the right training. Also, anyone who was on the government payroll to attend universities in the west or in Saudi are required by law to work in certain sectors based on their ability. The entire PIF (largest sovereign wealth fund in the world) is Saudi..there's not a single brown person and most of the people training them are Wall Street bankers who are nothing but ivy league grads.

    If you think Saudis will never grow up then you have no idea how much Saudi schools have changed and have no idea on how Saudi universities are today. I suggest you speak to a few younger Saudis and determine how far they've come. It's nothing like the 90s or 2000s anymore.
    To add to this...most Pakistanis in Saudi barley know Saudis well and make judgements based on what they hear or see. If you hang around the Saudi circle you will realize they're not as dumb as we think. A great example is to see the people MBS has put in positions of authority....these are not your typical royals but the ones who are most highly educated. Saudi has a long way to go...but they no longer need Pakistanis or Indians...unless it's for manual labor jobs.

  47. #47
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    To add to this...most Pakistanis in Saudi barley know Saudis well and make judgements based on what they hear or see. If you hang around the Saudi circle you will realize they're not as dumb as we think. A great example is to see the people MBS has put in positions of authority....these are not your typical royals but the ones who are most highly educated. Saudi has a long way to go...but they no longer need Pakistanis or Indians...unless it's for manual labor jobs.
    And yet with these new rules that have been brought in/ are being brought in, such as expat dependents levy (tax), Saudi's only allowed to work in more than a dozen retail sectors, means it's the low paid desi's who are likely to be affected the most. Of course the university educated Saudis are likely to be competent, but how many Saudis are willing to work in manual/ blue collar jobs? MBS opening up a few cinemas is not going to change the fundamentals of the Saudi work culture. They all want to be the organ grinder, none is willing to be the monkey.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  48. #48
    Debut
    Jan 2009
    Runs
    16,272
    Mentioned
    73 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yes, I moved back from Saudi Arabia - back to the UK. I moved back because I was newly married and didn't want my wife to face the hassle, along with all the restrictions on females, on a daily basis. So the loss of a tax-free salary, free housing in a luxury apartment bloc, free flights back to the UK (or their equivalent) three times a year, the 60 days holidays per annum (three blocks of 30, 15, 15), were more than compensated by a more senior position (albeit having to pay UK tax), more freedoms .... and oh yes, a newly married life!
    surely this cant be true

  49. #49
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    And yet with these new rules that have been brought in/ are being brought in, such as expat dependents levy (tax), Saudi's only allowed to work in more than a dozen retail sectors, means it's the low paid desi's who are likely to be affected the most. Of course the university educated Saudis are likely to be competent, but how many Saudis are willing to work in manual/ blue collar jobs? MBS opening up a few cinemas is not going to change the fundamentals of the Saudi work culture. They all want to be the organ grinder, none is willing to be the monkey.
    I agree but the shift will come with time. 5 years ago it was hard to believe Saudis would be running food trucks and actually doing a good job at it...but that's happening. There's no Filipinos taking orders or serving them...it's all Saudis. Another example that was good to see was Saudi cashiers and grocery bag-ers at your large stores...and surprisingly they show yup to work daily and do a decent job interacting with customers and bagging the groceries in a timely manner.

    Saudis have a long way to go but to think they will be dependent on external human capital for long is naive. They realize it's not sustainable and incentives are being pushed out to Saudis to take up jobs...because inflation is really starting to take a toll now. Don't expect Saudis to be picking up trash just yet...or doing construction jobs...but with the average age of Saudis being under 30...there's a lot of changes coming in the next decade.

  50. #50
    Debut
    Apr 2017
    Runs
    425
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    I agree but the shift will come with time. 5 years ago it was hard to believe Saudis would be running food trucks and actually doing a good job at it...but that's happening. There's no Filipinos taking orders or serving them...it's all Saudis. Another example that was good to see was Saudi cashiers and grocery bag-ers at your large stores...and surprisingly they show yup to work daily and do a decent job interacting with customers and bagging the groceries in a timely manner.

    Saudis have a long way to go but to think they will be dependent on external human capital for long is naive. They realize it's not sustainable and incentives are being pushed out to Saudis to take up jobs...because inflation is really starting to take a toll now. Don't expect Saudis to be picking up trash just yet...or doing construction jobs...but with the average age of Saudis being under 30...there's a lot of changes coming in the next decade.
    I have never been to SA but over the last few months have interacted with a few young SA entrepreneurs in London. Almost all were extremely hard working, forward minded and far from the lazy, bigoted stereotypes I had assumed after my interactions on PP. Also most are firmly behind MBS and the steps he is taking to modernise their society.

  51. #51
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GBK_Fan View Post
    I have never been to SA but over the last few months have interacted with a few young SA entrepreneurs in London. Almost all were extremely hard working, forward minded and far from the lazy, bigoted stereotypes I had assumed after my interactions on PP. Also most are firmly behind MBS and the steps he is taking to modernise their society.
    It's not just due to MBS...it's a generational shift. The baby boomers and Generation X were uneducated and relied heavily on external workforce. These were Bedouins who had recently discovered oil and urbanization. The Millennials on the other hand are educated, more exposed to the western world, and young....they also have the internet...to think these are the same Saudis from 20 or 25 years ago is just wrong.

  52. #52
    Debut
    Mar 2016
    Runs
    1,073
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I'll try not to lose any sleep over it.
    consider yourself lucky, very lucky

  53. #53
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Jeddah, Melbourne
    Runs
    1,345
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    To add to this...most Pakistanis in Saudi barley know Saudis well and make judgements based on what they hear or see. If you hang around the Saudi circle you will realize they're not as dumb as we think. A great example is to see the people MBS has put in positions of authority....these are not your typical royals but the ones who are most highly educated. Saudi has a long way to go...but they no longer need Pakistanis or Indians...unless it's for manual labor jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    Typical desi post. Let's get some facts straight. They don't need us anymore...the younger generation has really moved on and while they're not the brightest yet...they have all the important jobs and the right training. Also, anyone who was on the government payroll to attend universities in the west or in Saudi are required by law to work in certain sectors based on their ability. The entire PIF (largest sovereign wealth fund in the world) is Saudi..there's not a single brown person and most of the people training them are Wall Street bankers who are nothing but ivy league grads.

    If you think Saudis will never grow up then you have no idea how much Saudi schools have changed and have no idea on how Saudi universities are today. I suggest you speak to a few younger Saudis and determine how far they've come. It's nothing like the 90s or 2000s anymore.

    Why do you always assume stuff about people?

    I've lived my entire life in KSA. I know these guys inside out, especially the younger generation. Yes, the quality of education and the number of world-class universities has increased BUT my argument was never about them being uneducated or illiterate, heck the literacy rate is around 93%, including the "beduoins" you were talking about. My argument was that they can never have the necessary work ethic to run KSA by themselves. They just aren't committed or hard-working enough and there's no comparison to desis in terms of the actual intelligence levels and academic results. If the young Saudis really were smart then my school PISES-Riyadh (which was all-Pakistani) wouldn't have been declared the Best in the Gulf by Pearson Edexcel.

    The new generation of Saudis is better in the sense that they do want to open up to the world and interact with all kinds of people but, like I said, they are your typical burger awaam who've been golden spoon fed since birth. If you don't believe me here are some stats:

    1. In 2013, fifty-eight percent (gross percent) of the Saudi population was enrolled in tertiary education. It is estimated that sixty-three percent of the degrees that students get are not "useful for private-sector jobs".

    2. According to a World Bank report, more than 70 percent of the students in Saudi Arabia are in the fields of humanities and social sciences.

    3. According to official statistics, around 30% of the Saudi youth (aged 15-24) is unemployed.

    4. In 2011, only 19% of the Saudis believed that their education prepared them for a future job.

    Such statistics and many others don't reflect the "disciplined, rapidly progressing, potentially self-sufficient and hardworking" version of Saudi youth that you are trying to portray.

  54. #54
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GBK_Fan View Post
    I have never been to SA but over the last few months have interacted with a few young SA entrepreneurs in London. Almost all were extremely hard working, forward minded and far from the lazy, bigoted stereotypes I had assumed after my interactions on PP. Also most are firmly behind MBS and the steps he is taking to modernise their society.
    You can't really make a judgement based on Pakistani forums which are often infested with Islamophobic trolls, both home based and cross border operatives. Not to say that some of the criticisms of Arabs don't have some merit, but often it's just plain racism which is seen as okay as Saudis in particular are often described as racist themselves - usually by the racists.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  55. #55
    Debut
    Dec 2012
    Venue
    Indian Ocean
    Runs
    16,514
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GBK_Fan View Post
    I have never been to SA but over the last few months have interacted with a few young SA entrepreneurs in London. Almost all were extremely hard working, forward minded and far from the lazy, bigoted stereotypes I had assumed after my interactions on PP. Also most are firmly behind MBS and the steps he is taking to modernise their society.
    A handful of Saudi entrepreneurs in the UK isn't representative of the overall Saudi Arabian population - though I suspect you know this.

  56. #56
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    A handful of Saudi entrepreneurs in the UK isn't representative of the overall Saudi Arabian population - though I suspect you know this.
    So what? He's sharing his personal experience, what else would he have to go off?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  57. #57
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    2,211
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pak_Jazba View Post
    Couldn't agree more. Have just moved to KSA and honestly speaking, the real boom is just around the corner. All you've got to do is research on the long-term projects/investments that KSA is now exploring. It is immense.
    Give it another 10 years, and KSA will surpass UAE with ease in terms of foreign investment.
    Saudi Arabia ETFs are up 15.42% this year alone.

    Their GDP per capita will no doubt shoot from $20000 to $40000 range within 10 years for sure.

  58. #58
    Debut
    Dec 2012
    Venue
    Indian Ocean
    Runs
    16,514
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So what? He's sharing his personal experience, what else would he have to go off?
    I never contested said personal experience. Merely closed an obvious loop.

  59. #59
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    I never contested said personal experience. Merely closed an obvious loop.
    It wasn't an obvious loop, why would anyone think that unless they wanted to hint at another view.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  60. #60
    Debut
    Dec 2012
    Venue
    Indian Ocean
    Runs
    16,514
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    It wasn't an obvious loop, why would anyone think that unless they wanted to hint at another view.
    How on earth are 7 or 8 Saudi businessmen based out of the UK representative of the population in Taif, or Jeddah?

  61. #61
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    How on earth are 7 or 8 Saudi businessmen based out of the UK representative of the population in Taif, or Jeddah?
    No one claimed that it was, much in the same way Islamophobic posters on a Pakistani website don't represent the whole population of India.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  62. #62
    Debut
    Dec 2012
    Venue
    Indian Ocean
    Runs
    16,514
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    No one claimed that it was, much in the same way Islamophobic posters on a Pakistani website don't represent the whole population of India.
    Whataboutism - I should have known.

    You will have other opportunities to wax lyrical about Saudi Arabia and the Arabs in general. You just picked a wrong context on this occasion. Try again next time.

  63. #63
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    UK
    Runs
    22,876
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Varun View Post
    Whataboutism - I should have known.

    You will have other opportunities to wax lyrical about Saudi Arabia and the Arabs in general. You just picked a wrong context on this occasion. Try again next time.
    Where did I wax lyrical about Saudis or Arabs, in this thread or any other for that matter? I'm sure you can provide a quote if you are going to make such an assertion.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  64. #64
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    surely this cant be true
    I can assure you 100% that is true! And the figure mentioned did not include up to 10 days of paid compassionate leave (say due to the death of a close family member). Although I do hasten to add, only a few (mainly Westerners, and in only specific areas of the organisation) had similar holidays entitlements as I mentioned.

    Having worked in the USA, as well as in other parts of the globe for US based employers, I know that American's are often shocked to discover Europeans having paid annual holiday entitlements of between 4 to 6 weeks, and occasionally even more, and that's without even including school teachers or university lecturers, on top of up to 8 to 10+ days paid public holidays (eg Xmas, Easter, Bank holidays etc).

    In contrast approx. 2 weeks annual paid holidays is the norm in the USA.

    In European countries women are also allowed maternity leave, in some cases up to 52 weeks of maternity leave, a large part of it on full pay followed by a reducing scale until the end of the maternity leave.

    Fathers also can take time off for fully paid paternity leave, but obviously not to the same degree as the mothers.

    Perhaps you can clarify the situation in Canada? Closer to Europe or the USA?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  65. #65
    Debut
    Jan 2009
    Runs
    16,272
    Mentioned
    73 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I can assure you 100% that is true! And the figure mentioned did not include up to 10 days of paid compassionate leave (say due to the death of a close family member). Although I do hasten to add, only a few (mainly Westerners, and in only specific areas of the organisation) had similar holidays entitlements as I mentioned.

    Having worked in the USA, as well as in other parts of the globe for US based employers, I know that American's are often shocked to discover Europeans having paid annual holiday entitlements of between 4 to 6 weeks, and occasionally even more, and that's without even including school teachers or university lecturers, on top of up to 8 to 10+ days paid public holidays (eg Xmas, Easter, Bank holidays etc).

    In contrast approx. 2 weeks annual paid holidays is the norm in the USA.

    In European countries women are also allowed maternity leave, in some cases up to 52 weeks of maternity leave, a large part of it on full pay followed by a reducing scale until the end of the maternity leave.

    Fathers also can take time off for fully paid paternity leave, but obviously not to the same degree as the mothers.

    Perhaps you can clarify the situation in Canada? Closer to Europe or the USA?
    a lot closer to USA than Europe; 2 week vacation / year is the norm here which may increase depending on years of service but only if its company's policy; maternity and paternity leaves do exist similar to what you describe in european countries

  66. #66
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    Why do you always assume stuff about people?

    I've lived my entire life in KSA. I know these guys inside out, especially the younger generation. Yes, the quality of education and the number of world-class universities has increased BUT my argument was never about them being uneducated or illiterate, heck the literacy rate is around 93%, including the "beduoins" you were talking about. My argument was that they can never have the necessary work ethic to run KSA by themselves. They just aren't committed or hard-working enough and there's no comparison to desis in terms of the actual intelligence levels and academic results. If the young Saudis really were smart then my school PISES-Riyadh (which was all-Pakistani) wouldn't have been declared the Best in the Gulf by Pearson Edexcel.

    The new generation of Saudis is better in the sense that they do want to open up to the world and interact with all kinds of people but, like I said, they are your typical burger awaam who've been golden spoon fed since birth. If you don't believe me here are some stats:

    1. In 2013, fifty-eight percent (gross percent) of the Saudi population was enrolled in tertiary education. It is estimated that sixty-three percent of the degrees that students get are not "useful for private-sector jobs".

    2. According to a World Bank report, more than 70 percent of the students in Saudi Arabia are in the fields of humanities and social sciences.

    3. According to official statistics, around 30% of the Saudi youth (aged 15-24) is unemployed.

    4. In 2011, only 19% of the Saudis believed that their education prepared them for a future job.

    Such statistics and many others don't reflect the "disciplined, rapidly progressing, potentially self-sufficient and hardworking" version of Saudi youth that you are trying to portray.
    Speak about generalization. You went to Pakistan International School...I don't think you're being fair in judging Saudis when you spent your entire time with Pakistanis and never had a single Saudi in your school.. I went to Manarat (class of 06)...at that time it was the only English School Saudis were allowed to attend. Now, almost every middle-class and over Saudi goes to an English school. There's been a major shift in the last 10 years thanks to King Abdullah giving free handouts to every Saudi.

    No where did I say Saudis are disciplined or rapidly progressing. I said they're more competent than what the world knows them to be. And no where did I compare their abilities to Desis so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

    Saudi youth is still unemployed...and their not the brightest, I already admitted that...but there's been a noticeable difference. The recent expat levy and Saudization is changing things in a big way already. The Vision 2030 will only bring the Saudi workforce to speed sooner or later.

    To say these guys will always be lazy, dumb, and whatnot is very disingenuous from us Pakistanis. Saudis have realized they need to train their own people and give them jobs...and the effects of the changes are already visible.

    You can stay in the bubble thinking Saudis won't change but if you've been there recently and interacted with them you'll notice the changes.

  67. #67
    Debut
    Oct 2008
    Runs
    152
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    a lot closer to USA than Europe; 2 week vacation / year is the norm here which may increase depending on years of service but only if its company's policy; maternity and paternity leaves do exist similar to what you describe in european countries
    I'm in Western Canada and worked for 5 different companies (albeit big and well established) and all of them start off with 3 weeks plus personal days (ranging from 2-5 days per year). Perhaps Ontario is different but I would be surprised.

    For federally regulated industries, the maternity leave is now 18 months (all other industries still 12 months) and paternity can be up to 9 months but not at the same time. The base pay is through unemployment insurance which is capped at $25k total or $2200 per month. Most companies allow you to retain your health benefits and some companies give you a part of the salary while on maternity/paternity leave.

  68. #68
    Debut
    Oct 2008
    Runs
    152
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also note that in addition to almost 4 weeks off, there is at least one day paid off per month for public holidays (April and December have 2 days each). This is my experience in professional and management positions in large publicly traded companies.

  69. #69
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Jeddah, Melbourne
    Runs
    1,345
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    Speak about generalization. You went to Pakistan International School...I don't think you're being fair in judging Saudis when you spent your entire time with Pakistanis and never had a single Saudi in your school.. I went to Manarat (class of 06)...at that time it was the only English School Saudis were allowed to attend. Now, almost every middle-class and over Saudi goes to an English school. There's been a major shift in the last 10 years thanks to King Abdullah giving free handouts to every Saudi.

    No where did I say Saudis are disciplined or rapidly progressing. I said they're more competent than what the world knows them to be. And no where did I compare their abilities to Desis so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

    Saudi youth is still unemployed...and their not the brightest, I already admitted that...but there's been a noticeable difference. The recent expat levy and Saudization is changing things in a big way already. The Vision 2030 will only bring the Saudi workforce to speed sooner or later.

    To say these guys will always be lazy, dumb, and whatnot is very disingenuous from us Pakistanis. Saudis have realized they need to train their own people and give them jobs...and the effects of the changes are already visible.

    You can stay in the bubble thinking Saudis won't change but if you've been there recently and interacted with them you'll notice the changes.
    Here we go again with the assumptions. PISES isn't the ONLY school I've ever been to. I've been in Al-Majd Int'l and New World Int'l in Dammam and Manarat (class of 2013) in Riyadh so you can rest assured that I have had enough interactions with Saudis.

    Back to the point; the "Major Shift' that you've been talking about has come in terms of decrease in unemployment as I do see much more Saudis as cashiers and salesmen BUT that doesn't necessarily indicate any reliability whatsoever. You should meet the helpless employers who have to forcibly employ Saudis due to "Saudization" and ask them how their business/department is doing and if you take my word for it, 80% of them will say that they're worse off. If tomorrow, e.g, UAE introduces Emiratization, then it just shows that they're worried about unemployment rates and does not imply, whatsoever, that suddenly the locals have attained the skills and traits to bear the burden of their economy.

    Yes, there have been changes, sweeping ones, in fact, but those changes only reflect the desperation of the ruling elite to get their people to stand on their feet and work hard and, to a small extent, get rid of expats. In my opinion, such steps don't ensure an overall change in mentality that is still present in the majority of Saudis.

    However, if you believe that Saudis who have started working due to "Saudization" policies will change their casual mindset and general carelessness then that debate is for another day as it would be a psychological one.

  70. #70
    Debut
    Jan 2018
    Runs
    4,157
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    Here we go again with the assumptions. PISES isn't the ONLY school I've ever been to. I've been in Al-Majd Int'l and New World Int'l in Dammam and Manarat (class of 2013) in Riyadh so you can rest assured that I have had enough interactions with Saudis.

    Back to the point; the "Major Shift' that you've been talking about has come in terms of decrease in unemployment as I do see much more Saudis as cashiers and salesmen BUT that doesn't necessarily indicate any reliability whatsoever. You should meet the helpless employers who have to forcibly employ Saudis due to "Saudization" and ask them how their business/department is doing and if you take my word for it, 80% of them will say that they're worse off. If tomorrow, e.g, UAE introduces Emiratization, then it just shows that they're worried about unemployment rates and does not imply, whatsoever, that suddenly the locals have attained the skills and traits to bear the burden of their economy.

    Yes, there have been changes, sweeping ones, in fact, but those changes only reflect the desperation of the ruling elite to get their people to stand on their feet and work hard and, to a small extent, get rid of expats. In my opinion, such steps don't ensure an overall change in mentality that is still present in the majority of Saudis.

    However, if you believe that Saudis who have started working due to "Saudization" policies will change their casual mindset and general carelessness then that debate is for another day as it would be a psychological one.

    Already exists from quite some time officially (even longer before that non officially).

    https://www.tamimi.com/law-update-ar...ation-a-recap/

  71. #71
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    Here we go again with the assumptions. PISES isn't the ONLY school I've ever been to. I've been in Al-Majd Int'l and New World Int'l in Dammam and Manarat (class of 2013) in Riyadh so you can rest assured that I have had enough interactions with Saudis.

    Back to the point; the "Major Shift' that you've been talking about has come in terms of decrease in unemployment as I do see much more Saudis as cashiers and salesmen BUT that doesn't necessarily indicate any reliability whatsoever. You should meet the helpless employers who have to forcibly employ Saudis due to "Saudization" and ask them how their business/department is doing and if you take my word for it, 80% of them will say that they're worse off. If tomorrow, e.g, UAE introduces Emiratization, then it just shows that they're worried about unemployment rates and does not imply, whatsoever, that suddenly the locals have attained the skills and traits to bear the burden of their economy.

    Yes, there have been changes, sweeping ones, in fact, but those changes only reflect the desperation of the ruling elite to get their people to stand on their feet and work hard and, to a small extent, get rid of expats. In my opinion, such steps don't ensure an overall change in mentality that is still present in the majority of Saudis.

    However, if you believe that Saudis who have started working due to "Saudization" policies will change their casual mindset and general carelessness then that debate is for another day as it would be a psychological one.
    Employers suffering from Saudization are your smaller businesses that have hired low level Saudis and have a small pool of employees. At the larger corporate and government level the Saudis are performing far better than what they have previously. There are more Saudi doctors and bankers and engineers today than 10 years ago...there's more Saudi kids learning English today than 5 years ago...and that is the shift I'm talking about.

    The mindset is changing for the Saudis and it's pretty stupid to expect this to happen over night or to claim they will never have the work ethic to bear the burden of their economy. They will rely on external human capital but they will come up to speed...sooner or later.

  72. #72
    Debut
    May 2015
    Venue
    Karachi, Jeddah, Melbourne
    Runs
    1,345
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sshakir411 View Post
    Employers suffering from Saudization are your smaller businesses that have hired low level Saudis and have a small pool of employees. At the larger corporate and government level the Saudis are performing far better than what they have previously. There are more Saudi doctors and bankers and engineers today than 10 years ago...there's more Saudi kids learning English today than 5 years ago...and that is the shift I'm talking about.

    The mindset is changing for the Saudis and it's pretty stupid to expect this to happen over night or to claim they will never have the work ethic to bear the burden of their economy. They will rely on external human capital but they will come up to speed...sooner or later.
    Alright, if you think that Al-Rajhi Group is a "small" business then let's agree to disagree as I have no further comments to put forward

  73. #73
    Debut
    May 2010
    Venue
    Motown
    Runs
    3,667
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    Alright, if you think that Al-Rajhi Group is a "small" business then let's agree to disagree as I have no further comments to put forward
    The issue of bringing Saudi employees up to speed is one that will iron out over time....the initial process is painful because majority of employees at Al Rajhi are foreigners. To say that Al Rajhi will never be what it was without these Pakistanis or Expat workers is a tremendous exaggeration.

  74. #74
    Debut
    Oct 2008
    Runs
    152
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Many people are discussing apples to oranges.

    Success of companies is based on the quality of its people, work culture, leadership, and of course the product. In the cause of Saudization, every company is moving from expats to local employees so everyone is getting "downgraded" as the Saudis adjust to their new roles. Some companies can ease the transition better than others but ultimately all companies will struggle with the process. The impact for companies operating in Saudia only will not be as great since their competition is also experiencing similar issues.

    The point of real concern is that Saudi companies operating internationally are already not capable of competing against firms from other countries (with smart expats) so they likely will fall behind further when the expats are replaced with locals.

  75. #75
    Debut
    Nov 2017
    Runs
    1,786
    Mentioned
    50 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    If anyone here thinks that the "new" generation of Saudis are competent enough to hold the burden of Saudi economy then they don't know jack about Saudis.

    This generation of Saudi kids is the typical gold-spoon fed, burger awaam who can't get enough of Western cultures and trends and are far away from conservative Islam. Their lives revolve around shisha cafes, desert safaris in their Land Cruisers, buying the latest Mustang, latest iPhone, trips to UK/US and an annual visit to their father's business.

    Hardly 5-10% of these kids are utilizing their Western degrees to contribute in the Saudi Economy.

    KSA still thrives because of expats since the locals can't be bothered enough to learn the technical know-how of modern industry and apply it. They are only interested in employing either easily satisfied, desperate desis or competent white dudes who'll demand 3 times the salary.

    I don't understand this sudden confidence in the locals but I can see KSA going down rapidly if the expats keep leaving at the rate that they are.

    Mark my words, these guys will come begging for desis when they fail (as usual).
    I relate with this post on a spiritual level. Having lived in KSA for 10 years, I totally agree with all of these points. A lot of people wil feel that you are overgeneralizing or exagerating, but the reality of the situation is the youth of KSA is pampered and spoilt by their governments to such an extent that they will not be ready for the work-force at all. I've seen several Saudi businessmen bring on their sons to join their businesses (because no one else will employ the snobby brats), only to see that the sons don't have an iota of social skills or apptitude to deal with other people. The expats are the main reason KSA to this day isn't in total shambles.

  76. #76
    Debut
    Sep 2016
    Runs
    3,600
    Mentioned
    290 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by AssassinatedDevil View Post
    I relate with this post on a spiritual level. Having lived in KSA for 10 years, I totally agree with all of these points. A lot of people wil feel that you are overgeneralizing or exagerating, but the reality of the situation is the youth of KSA is pampered and spoilt by their governments to such an extent that they will not be ready for the work-force at all. I've seen several Saudi businessmen bring on their sons to join their businesses (because no one else will employ the snobby brats), only to see that the sons don't have an iota of social skills or apptitude to deal with other people. The expats are the main reason KSA to this day isn't in total shambles.
    For the kind of social political structure SA has, I assume success is generated by sucking up to the next higher level in the hierarchy. This produces cowardly and non-productive personalities.

    Nor do the Saudis feel they have to change anything, as they regard themselves as superior being the birthplace of Islam.

  77. #77
    Debut
    Jun 2013
    Runs
    4,399
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    During my business school days, we had an alumni from Algeria who was working in KSA and he came to give us a talk about working in Middle East, but KSA in particular.

    He menitoned that when you go to KSA to work as an expat, you go there with 2 buckets. 1 for money and 1 for poo. Whenever either of those get filled, you leave KSA/Middle East.
    Last edited by Arham_PakFan; 25th June 2018 at 17:22.

  78. #78
    Debut
    Jun 2011
    Venue
    Delhi
    Runs
    9,559
    Mentioned
    81 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yes, I moved back from Saudi Arabia - back to the UK. I moved back because I was newly married and didn't want my wife to face the hassle, along with all the restrictions on females, on a daily basis. So the loss of a tax-free salary, free housing in a luxury apartment bloc, free flights back to the UK (or their equivalent) three times a year, the 60 days holidays per annum (three blocks of 30, 15, 15), were more than compensated by a more senior position (albeit having to pay UK tax), more freedoms .... and oh yes, a newly married life!
    Offtopic but have to say this.

    Congratulations on your wedding. May you and your wife have a long happy journey.

  79. #79
    Debut
    Sep 2011
    Runs
    1,547
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    During my business school days, we had an alumni from Algeria who was working in KSA and he came to give us a talk about working in Middle East, but KSA in particular.

    He menitoned that when you go to KSA to work as an expat, you go there with 2 buckets. 1 for money and 1 for poo. Whenever either of those get filled, you leave KSA/Middle East.

    Thats a well known saying about British expats as well.
    Last edited by Arham_PakFan; 25th June 2018 at 17:22.

  80. #80
    Debut
    Jan 2007
    Runs
    13,365
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Itachi View Post
    Offtopic but have to say this.

    Congratulations on your wedding. May you and your wife have a long happy journey.
    Thanks, but that was quite a few years ago. Since then, apart from the UK (my home), I've also lived/worked in the USA for a few years, as well as a few short stints around Europe. But happy to say that we're still married, and have some beautiful children growing up.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •