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View Poll Results: Why can't India and Pakistan come to the negotiating table like US - N. Korea?

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Kashmir issue must be resolved first

    8 27.59%
  • Obstinate-selfish leaders

    11 37.93%
  • People don't want peace

    6 20.69%
  • Will happen eventually!

    11 37.93%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 81 to 129 of 129
  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    If you truly believed in the integrity of India you would never accept Pakistan in the first place. If you do, then you should have no problem recognising that Kashmir in it's entirety should be Pakistan and that is why you get the majority of Kashmiris bearing Pakistan flags.
    Who separated us? The British. When some people raised the demand for a separate country, they readily accepted it. There are reasons why they accepted it. It’s a large enough topic for another thread. That decision broke the hearts of so many people who fought for freedom together. Today India and Pakistan are two separate countries and are separated by a border. I respect that border.

    Why do you think Kashmir in its entirety should belong to Pakistan?! If I accept the existence of Pakistan I should also accept that Kashmir is a part of Pakistan? What kinda logic is that?!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Who separated us? The British. When some people raised the demand for a separate country, they readily accepted it. There are reasons why they accepted it. It’s a large enough topic for another thread. That decision broke the hearts of so many people who fought for freedom together. Today India and Pakistan are two separate countries and are separated by a border. I respect that border.

    Why do you think Kashmir in its entirety should belong to Pakistan?! If I accept the existence of Pakistan I should also accept that Kashmir is a part of Pakistan? What kinda logic is that?!
    The same logic that led to India becoming split into India and Pakistan, i.e, the split along religious lines which would have included Kashmir if it wasn't for some duplicity which rendered the whole process meaningless.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The same logic that led to India becoming split into India and Pakistan, i.e, the split along religious lines which would have included Kashmir if it wasn't for some duplicity which rendered the whole process meaningless.
    Kashmir isnít the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. Itís a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Kashmir isn’t the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. It’s a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.
    I have already heard the pro-India rhetoric from Indians, don't really need it parroted ad naseum, you asked for the logic I gave it.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I have already heard the pro-India rhetoric from Indians, don't really need it parroted ad naseum, you asked for the logic I gave it.
    The first three sentences in my previous reply basically tell you why that Ďlogicí doesnít make much sense.

    The OP asks why India and Pakistan arenít coming to the negotiating table. You and a few others here have clearly mentioned that Pakistan isnít coming to the negotiating table until Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan. I just said thatíll never happen because Kashmir is an integral part of India. Weíll be happy to improve relations with Pakistan and initiate programs that will benefit both countries. Weíve tried so many times for the same but you (rather, your army) just want to make Kashmir yours.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    The first three sentences in my previous reply basically tell you why that ‘logic’ doesn’t make much sense.

    The OP asks why India and Pakistan aren’t coming to the negotiating table. You and a few others here have clearly mentioned that Pakistan isn’t coming to the negotiating table until Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan. I just said that’ll never happen because Kashmir is an integral part of India. We’ll be happy to improve relations with Pakistan and initiate programs that will benefit both countries. We’ve tried so many times for the same but you (rather, your army) just want to make Kashmir yours.
    As I said, I don't really need to hear any more pro-India rhetoric where you make claims of open minded and generous approach (from your side) which isn't matched by reality. I have already made my position clear in the previous posts re Kashmir and the logic of it being Pakistan, if it you don't agree with it, then that is fine, but I have no further need to listen to your rhetoric. Thanks.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    As I said, I don't really need to hear any more pro-India rhetoric where you make claims of open minded and generous approach (from your side) which isn't matched by reality. I have already made my position clear in the previous posts re Kashmir and the logic of it being Pakistan, if it you don't agree with it, then that is fine, but I have no further need to listen to your rhetoric. Thanks.
    Come on man. Donít argue for the sake of it.. What do you think this is? India isnít a charity organisation. No country would ever give away its land. Why do you think itís such an easy solution? India giving away J&K? We wonít! Even if we consider it, the very long list of short and long term consequences will force us out of it. Weíre not lunatics.

    An open minded or generous approach is when youíre willing to listen to the concerns of the other party and look for a solution together. If Pakistan says to India ďhey look at the situation in Kashmir, itís not good. You should do something about it. Letís look for a solution. You look after your side of the border and weíll take care of our side and make sure there isnít any infiltration. Letís sign ceasefire agreements and strengthen our relations. Letís cooperate and bring peace to our borderĒ, the problems in Kashmir will effectively be solved. But that never happened. Instead,

    1) Youíre trying to make Kashmir yours. The agenda behind all this ďdiscuss KashmirĒ ďliberate KashmirĒ shouting is to make it a part of Pakistan. India knows it.

    2) None of your Governments has had the guts to shake hands with India and discuss the Kashmir issue in the manner I mentioned above. The army will override such a decision. Any plan to promote peace and trade relations between the two countries is met with strong disagreement by your army and they react to it through serious ceasefire violations and some other things, even embarrassing your Government.

    This is not rhetoric. This is the reality. But Iím someone who believes that things will fall into place eventually and India and Pakistan will be good friends. We just have too many things in common to be enemies forever .

    You might have different opinions. Letís agree to disagree then.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Kashmir isn’t the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. It’s a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.
    Kashmir issue isn't as simple as you are making it to be through your one side narrative. If according to you, Kashmir belongs to India because it acceded to it than what about other states in present day India that acceded to Pakistan ? India has no moral leg to stand on when it comes to Kashmir. Kashmiris want freedom from India and I hope they will be free one day.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Kashmir issue isn't as simple as you are making it to be through your one side narrative. If according to you, Kashmir belongs to India because it acceded to it than what about other states in present day India that acceded to Pakistan ? India has no moral leg to stand on when it comes to Kashmir. Kashmiris want freedom from India and I hope they will be free one day.
    Good point. Iím assuming that youíre talking about states like Gujarat. India did use force to annex it. We had the support of the British on that matter and it was settled without delay. Some of the other states were totally isolated and it was impractical to let them accede to Pakistan and were persuaded to join India. You have to understand that all this happened decades ago at the time of partition. The chapter was closed then and there. The only delay was in kicking the Portuguese out.

    The problem with Kashmir today is that itís practically impossible for India to let go of it. The consequences would be very serious and would be a strategic suicide. India would never do it. The Kashmiris who seek freedom from India donít have a clear reason for their demand. Kashmir has been given a special status which no other place in India has and they enjoy certain privileges too. Many of the problems they face are self inflicted.

    And like I said in my previous post, Kashmir canít exist as an independent state and will eventually function as an extension of Pakistan. India understands this very well. India also understands the problems faced by the people there and is trying to make it a better place to live and has been injecting a lot of money into Kashmirís economy and tourism. Armyís presence nowadays is not as strong as it used to be in the past. The situation there is slowly improving.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    It is PoK. Itís a part of Pakistan and we have no problems with it. You have to understand that what we see today is a post partition situation. Itís not like India attacked some other country and annexed some part of Kashmir. Itís been a part of India since partition. The China - Tibet issue is a more serious matter and comes under unlawful occupation but you guys seem to have absolutely no issues with it.

    What are Pakistan flag bearers doing in India? They are free to move to Pakistan if they wish. India (or any nation) only cares about people who want peace. Recently the NDA (National Defence Academy) conducted an entrance exam there in the valley and the attendance was very good. So donít paint the whole Kashmir Ďpro-Pakistaní. India offers far better facilities and options. There are many successful individuals from Kashmir and Kashmiri merchants are doing good business in different parts of India. Itís the situation in the valley thatís worrying everyone.

    You canít demand a discussion on J&K because you have no business in the internal matters of our country. The fact is that Kashmir cannot exist as an independent state. Both countries know this very well. If India let go of Kashmir itíll basically be a part of Pakistan. Itís very clear why Pakistan is so interested in it. An unstable Kashmir is not good for Kashmiris or for India but itís good for Pakistanís agenda. Thatís why I asked you whether you really care about the Kashmiris in India or not. We saw what happened to the Ramzan ceasefire agreement.
    Who you trying to fool bud! Watch your own programmes and see India wants Pak Kashmir badly. The valley was never part of India and never will be. Never mind Kashmir India has never really accepted Pakistan as a separate country at all. The ones with Pak flags in IoK are indigenous Kashmiris fighting for their land. You are the oppressors that will eventually have to leave. Maharashtraians and Punjabi's of India are no one to tell people of the valley to move to Pakistan! They are pro Pakistan and always will be, don't you dare tell me otherwise. They put their lives on the line to teach your military goons a lesson every day.

    So what if there are some Kashmiris doing well and living in other parts of the country? Many Palestinians are doing well living in Israel as well that is not to say they don't want independence. What I am seeing is 700,000 Indian thugs terrorising the people every day in the valley. If you are so honest then let the UN folk come in and see for themselves just how peace loving you are. All will be exposed when all those unmarked graves are found of innoocent people that your military has killed and you know it in your heart and conscience.

    It is not your "internal affair" at all hence we will keep meddling in it whether you like it or not. If two or more people or parties claim a thing then it becomes a dispute by default that is the case here. Even your Nehru admitted this so don't try to change the narrative now. Ceasefire makes no difference, the Kashmiris were fighting you before and will continue to do so until they get justice. Pak wants peace but not at the expense of our national interests.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    It is PoK. Itís a part of Pakistan and we have no problems with it. You have to understand that what we see today is a post partition situation. Itís not like India attacked some other country and annexed some part of Kashmir. Itís been a part of India since partition. The China - Tibet issue is a more serious matter and comes under unlawful occupation but you guys seem to have absolutely no issues with it.

    What are Pakistan flag bearers doing in India? They are free to move to Pakistan if they wish. India (or any nation) only cares about people who want peace. Recently the NDA (National Defence Academy) conducted an entrance exam there in the valley and the attendance was very good. So donít paint the whole Kashmir Ďpro-Pakistaní. India offers far better facilities and options. There are many successful individuals from Kashmir and Kashmiri merchants are doing good business in different parts of India. Itís the situation in the valley thatís worrying everyone.

    You canít demand a discussion on J&K because you have no business in the internal matters of our country. The fact is that Kashmir cannot exist as an independent state. Both countries know this very well. If India let go of Kashmir itíll basically be a part of Pakistan. Itís very clear why Pakistan is so interested in it. An unstable Kashmir is not good for Kashmiris or for India but itís good for Pakistanís agenda. Thatís why I asked you whether you really care about the Kashmiris in India or not. We saw what happened to the Ramzan ceasefire agreement.
    And you have to understand, just as when India makes statements about Azaad Kashmir being part of India, and protesting against CPEC because it goes through what India perceives to be its territory that does not fly with Pakistan either as India is totally off base. Azaad Kashmir is part of Pakistan, until the day a referendum is held throughout a united Kashmir. If India claims Pakistani territory, or it claims Pakistan is occupying Indian territory automatically puts Pakistan in a position of having the right to talk about IOK.

    Pakistan will talk about IOK, you telling Pakistan that it has no business means nothing. Just as how India responds when Pakistan tells India what happens in Azaad Kashmir is none of India's business.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Who you trying to fool bud! Watch your own programmes and see India wants Pak Kashmir badly. The valley was never part of India and never will be. Never mind Kashmir India has never really accepted Pakistan as a separate country at all. The ones with Pak flags in IoK are indigenous Kashmiris fighting for their land. You are the oppressors that will eventually have to leave. Maharashtraians and Punjabi's of India are no one to tell people of the valley to move to Pakistan! They are pro Pakistan and always will be, don't you dare tell me otherwise. They put their lives on the line to teach your military goons a lesson every day.

    So what if there are some Kashmiris doing well and living in other parts of the country? Many Palestinians are doing well living in Israel as well that is not to say they don't want independence. What I am seeing is 700,000 Indian thugs terrorising the people every day in the valley. If you are so honest then let the UN folk come in and see for themselves just how peace loving you are. All will be exposed when all those unmarked graves are found of innoocent people that your military has killed and you know it in your heart and conscience.

    It is not your "internal affair" at all hence we will keep meddling in it whether you like it or not. If two or more people or parties claim a thing then it becomes a dispute by default that is the case here. Even your Nehru admitted this so don't try to change the narrative now. Ceasefire makes no difference, the Kashmiris were fighting you before and will continue to do so until they get justice. Pak wants peace but not at the expense of our national interests.
    We donít want your Kashmir . Go through the history. Who started those wars? You did. India has a history of retreating from the land we captured from you after the war. India has absolutely no plan to takeover your Kashmir or your country. Weíre only interested in our side of the border.

    I donít think we have any problems with the ĎUN folksí coming. Declaring war on your country is not a human right. And you still think there are 7 lakh army men there?! Really tired of typing man. This video will answer a lot of questions:





    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    And you have to understand, just as when India makes statements about Azaad Kashmir being part of India, and protesting against CPEC because it goes through what India perceives to be its territory that does not fly with Pakistan either as India is totally off base. Azaad Kashmir is part of Pakistan, until the day a referendum is held throughout a united Kashmir. If India claims Pakistani territory, or it claims Pakistan is occupying Indian territory automatically puts Pakistan in a position of having the right to talk about IOK.

    Pakistan will talk about IOK, you telling Pakistan that it has no business means nothing. Just as how India responds when Pakistan tells India what happens in Azaad Kashmir is none of India's business.
    Agree with you. Azaad Kashmir or PoK, is a part of Pakistan. Isnít it like that right now? The CPEC is none of Indiaís business, although I must say Pakistan is playing a dangerous game. But itís still none of our business. The only worry is the construction through your side of Kashmir by China with malign intentions. We canít do much. But in the case of Tibet, India only fulfilled its duty.

    India doesnít go to the UN saying ďdiscuss Kashmir discuss KashmirĒ. And it doesnít see Kashmir as a hindrance for good relations between the two countries.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    We don’t want your Kashmir . Go through the history. Who started those wars? You did. India has a history of retreating from the land we captured from you after the war. India has absolutely no plan to takeover your Kashmir or your country. We’re only interested in our side of the border.

    I don’t think we have any problems with the ‘UN folks’ coming. Declaring war on your country is not a human right. And you still think there are 7 lakh army men there?! Really tired of typing man. This video will answer a lot of questions:







    Agree with you. Azaad Kashmir or PoK, is a part of Pakistan. Isn’t it like that right now? The CPEC is none of India’s business, although I must say Pakistan is playing a dangerous game. But it’s still none of our business. The only worry is the construction through your side of Kashmir by China with malign intentions. We can’t do much. But in the case of Tibet, India only fulfilled its duty.

    India doesn’t go to the UN saying “discuss Kashmir discuss Kashmir”. And it doesn’t see Kashmir as a hindrance for good relations between the two countries.

    India doesn't want good relations with Pakistan regardless of Kashmir, the cutting off of cricket ties which is seen as a Pakistani asset is proof enough. Cricket is seen as an asset for Pakistan and India uses it's dominance in that arena as a political weapon, if they can do that with sport, then you can be sure they will have the same approach with any other business with Pakistan.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaag Viru Bhaag View Post
    Your 3rd point is pretty funny. How many enemies do we have? Why are we so obessed with Pakistan? Why do our politicians bring Pakistan during elections?

    Just replace India with Pakistan, Army with Politicians and Pakistan with India in your 3rd point and speak loudly.
    I am not sure finding facts from the real world funny is to your benefit.

    It is delusional to think there is any equivalence between Indian politicians who may occasionally rant about Pakistan ( I have lived in India for many years to know that is true) and the Pakistani military generals whose only justification for power is the bogeyman India.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Compare with the corruption unleashed by the "civilian" govt.

    You are being disingenious here. Hindu nationalism is not only about some deluded individuals, but a societal phenomenon which is translated into electoral successes as well as militantism pressuring Muslims who eat beef.
    Societal phenomena, really? I know a lot more about India and you are wrong.


    . It impacts the wider sociology of India. And one of the main points of Hindu nationalism is the belief that a dozen of modern nation-States, incl. Pakistan, belongs to a mystic geography called "Akhand Bharat".

    I could quote a dozen of instances of the pan-Pak references in their narratives, but the last one is with Indian actress invited to go to Pakistan because of some "anti national" role :

    [/quote]

    I say "13 persons" and you find a pic with exactly 13 persons to persons to prove my point, amazing!

    Also, everything is not about the economy.
    That is exactly what the millionaire Generals tell their countrymen who live in grinding poverty.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    India doesn't want good relations with Pakistan regardless of Kashmir, the cutting off of cricket ties which is seen as a Pakistani asset is proof enough. Cricket is seen as an asset for Pakistan and India uses it's dominance in that arena as a political weapon, if they can do that with sport, then you can be sure they will have the same approach with any other business with Pakistan.
    Trade relations between Pakistan and India were good in the past. I know people who even exported betel leaves to Pakistan! They actually made quite a lot of money out of it. A trade canít be forced. If Pakistan ainít selling India canít force them to sell and if Pakistan ainít buying India canít force them to buy.

    Indiaís stand currently is that terror and talks canít go hand in hand. Pakistan should put the people behind Mumbai attacks behind bars. Even the US has raised the same demand. Pakistan hasnít done anything. In such a scenario, we canít do trade or play Ďfriendliesí with you.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Trade relations between Pakistan and India were good in the past. I know people who even exported betel leaves to Pakistan! They actually made quite a lot of money out of it. A trade can’t be forced. If Pakistan ain’t selling India can’t force them to sell and if Pakistan ain’t buying India can’t force them to buy.

    India’s stand currently is that terror and talks can’t go hand in hand. Pakistan should put the people behind Mumbai attacks behind bars. Even the US has raised the same demand. Pakistan hasn’t done anything. In such a scenario, we can’t do trade or play ‘friendlies’ with you.
    Can't be bothered going down the rabbit hole of " we did this only because you did that, blah blah", so let us agree that trade relations between India and Pakistan have been good in the past, same with cricket relations, so it's not impossible. But the current Indian govt is not interested in mutual benefit, neither does it think India needs it, it is more in Pakistan's interest hence even your own people will say on here, why bother?

    Does that mean Pakistan is blameless? Not at all, but clearly India is in the lead position in the region, perhaps the terror narrative suits them quite well at this time.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  18. #98
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    Sometimes I so want to pull out people from here, residing in different parts of the world, to come to and live in India.
    And see what 1.3 billion souls actually mean.
    There were more applicants in the Indian Railways this year, than the entire population of Australia. Can you imagine that?

    And so even if a fraction of the people say/do something against Pakistan, it doesn't signify anything. We are heavily a mid-wage earner country and have lots and lots of daily problems to deal with.
    Pakistan doesn't come in that list. We couldn't care less about conquests. Akhand Bharat lol.
    Politicians talk about Pakistan because they go for every fraction of population during the elections.
    Most people vote for the person who gets their things sorted.


    Hope is a good thing,maybe the best of things
    And no good thing ever dies

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsachan View Post
    Sometimes I so want to pull out people from here, residing in different parts of the world, to come to and live in India.
    And see what 1.3 billion souls actually mean.
    There were more applicants in the Indian Railways this year, than the entire population of Australia. Can you imagine that?

    And so even if a fraction of the people say/do something against Pakistan, it doesn't signify anything. We are heavily a mid-wage earner country and have lots and lots of daily problems to deal with.
    Pakistan doesn't come in that list. We couldn't care less about conquests. Akhand Bharat lol.
    Politicians talk about Pakistan because they go for every fraction of population during the elections.
    Most people vote for the person who gets their things sorted.
    You should try visiting Pakistan as well, most Indians are treated as honoured guests when they go there. Has that made any difference to the political stalemate or India extending this to the sports and entertainment arenas to damage Pakistan? The answer is no. So despite all the talk of Indians don't care about Pakistan, their govt clearly does, and that filters down to the population, hence this discussion even taking place at all.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I am not sure finding facts from the real world funny is to your benefit.

    It is delusional to think there is any equivalence between Indian politicians who may occasionally rant about Pakistan ( I have lived in India for many years to know that is true) and the Pakistani military generals whose only justification for power is the bogeyman India.
    Occasionally? I guess I am wasting too much time with someone who doesn't even live in India but claims to know everything.


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  21. #101
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    @Mr.Q

    There are many video's contradicting the one you posted where your officials claim they will "liberate" Kashmir no matter what! You have problems with everything and everyone! When the UN favours you they are the good guys and when they oppose you their world is mud, try harder! We started the wars on Kash coz our country depends on it. Now that Kashmiris are opposing your occupation India just neeeds someone to blame, that's all. Try harder!


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    @Mr.Q

    There are many video's contradicting the one you posted where your officials claim they will "liberate" Kashmir no matter what! You have problems with everything and everyone! When the UN favours you they are the good guys and when they oppose you their world is mud, try harder!
    India’s stand has always been that Kashmir is a part of India and that it will remain that way. I invite your attention to that thread on the UN report. Everybody knows who is who. Several countries have supported India’s view on the report. We’re not worried about any probe either.

    We started the wars on Kash coz our country depends on it. Now that Kashmiris are opposing your occupation India just neeeds someone to blame, that's all. Try harder!
    Your country depends on what?! War?

    You declared a war on terror. What happened to it? It must have been fun initially. Foreign aids, free weapons, technical assistance... oh yeah. But things aren’t that rosy anymore, are they? You basically divided terrorists into ‘good’ and ‘bad’. The bad ones are those who fight against you and should be destroyed. The good ones fight for you (or don’t attack you) and you protect them.

    Pakistan lost whatever little credibility it had when the rest of the world found out that Osama bin Laden was enjoying his ‘retired’ life with family in a building next to Pakistan’s military base. Wanted terrorists still roam freely on the streets of Pakistan. One of them inaugurated his party’s office in Islamabad the other day! It’s a safe haven for terrorists. Where else would terrorists get support of the military establishment!

    Ultimately the people of Pakistan are the ones suffering due to these policies. The ones that take these decisions have truckloads of money and can shuttle between Pakistan and Europe as they wish.

    Who is trying hard? Me or you? Don’t drag me unnecessarily into discussions if you don’t have facts to backup your claims.
    Last edited by Mr.Q; 24th June 2018 at 08:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    India’s stand has always been that Kashmir is a part of India and that it will remain that way. I invite your attention to that thread on the UN report. Everybody knows who is who. Several countries have supported India’s view on the report. We’re not worried about any probe either.



    Your country depends on what?! War?

    You declared a war on terror. What happened to it? It must have been fun initially. Foreign aids, free weapons, technical assistance... oh yeah. But things aren’t that rosy anymore, are they? You basically divided terrorists into ‘good’ and ‘bad’. The bad ones are those who fight against you and should be destroyed. The good ones fight for you (or don’t attack you) and you protect them.

    Pakistan lost whatever little credibility it had when the rest of the world found out that Osama bin Laden was enjoying his ‘retired’ life with family in a building next to Pakistan’s military base. Wanted terrorists still roam freely on the streets of Pakistan. One of them inaugurated his party’s office in Islamabad the other day! It’s a safe haven for terrorists. Where else would terrorists get support of the military establishment!

    Ultimately the people of Pakistan are the ones suffering due to these policies. The ones that take these decisions have truckloads of money and can shuttle between Pakistan and Europe as they wish.

    Who is trying hard? Me or you? Don’t drag me unnecessarily into discussions if you don’t have facts to backup your claims.
    Well don't reply to my mails if your don't like my comments, okay?? Pak position is that Kashmir is ours and we will keep fighting for it like our Kashmiri brethren. It remains unfinished business that will naturally reach an end.

    Our country depends on Kashmir that Jinnah saheb described as our "jugular vein". It is yours that depends on Pak bashing and is absolutely with us hoping that we will go away or be intimidated by your silly threats as if we can't hit back. We are okay now and have recovered from the mistakes our previous governments may have made . We have also killed the Indian terrorists who were using Afghanistan as a launch pad for the past 20 years. Now we are giving you hell in IoK, you know what they say about payback, right??

    As if your people are not suffering with hundreds of millions living on the streets and insurgencies everywhere like no ones business! You don't even have toilets for goodness sake yet count other peoples problems! Firstly Osama had been killed many times before the event you mentioned, do you realise that or are you completely ignorant? We have your terrorist Kulbushan as well who we will hang just like we did Sarjbit Singh! He should be hanged on 15 August at the border so that you can all see it free of charge! Your military are the biggest terrorists in the world which is why they don't allow the UN to enter the valley in fear that they will be exposed. Your army are nothing but a bunch of cowards and rapists!

    Your military spend ziliions in IoK yet still can not seduce the people of the valley! This is what you people call liberation that a place should be occupied with rifle holding gunda's holding the people at gunpoint! Whose trying hard at what?? I guess you don't like being bashed around like a Pak patriot like me! The claims can be seen all over IoK where the people are buried in Pak flags that is more then sufficient evidence of where their loyalties lie. People in Pak Kashmir won't even spit on your flag if you paid them.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Well don't reply to my mails if your don't like my comments, okay?? Pak position is that Kashmir is ours and we will keep fighting for it like our Kashmiri brethren. It remains unfinished business that will naturally reach an end.

    Our country depends on Kashmir that Jinnah saheb described as our "jugular vein". It is yours that depends on Pak bashing and is absolutely with us hoping that we will go away or be intimidated by your silly threats as if we can't hit back. We are okay now and have recovered from the mistakes our previous governments may have made . We have also killed the Indian terrorists who were using Afghanistan as a launch pad for the past 20 years. Now we are giving you hell in IoK, you know what they say about payback, right??

    As if your people are not suffering with hundreds of millions living on the streets and insurgencies everywhere like no ones business! You don't even have toilets for goodness sake yet count other peoples problems! Firstly Osama had been killed many times before the event you mentioned, do you realise that or are you completely ignorant? We have your terrorist Kulbushan as well who we will hang just like we did Sarjbit Singh! He should be hanged on 15 August at the border so that you can all see it free of charge! Your military are the biggest terrorists in the world which is why they don't allow the UN to enter the valley in fear that they will be exposed. Your army are nothing but a bunch of cowards and rapists!

    Your military spend ziliions in IoK yet still can not seduce the people of the valley! This is what you people call liberation that a place should be occupied with rifle holding gunda's holding the people at gunpoint! Whose trying hard at what?? I guess you don't like being bashed around like a Pak patriot like me! The claims can be seen all over IoK where the people are buried in Pak flags that is more then sufficient evidence of where their loyalties lie. People in Pak Kashmir won't even spit on your flag if you paid them.
    So you accept that Pakistan army is sending terrorists across the border because you want Kashmir from us. I appreciate your honesty. That answers the question in the OP as well.

    We do have some basic issues to address despite being the fastest growing economy on the planet. I donít think anyone here would claim that India is perfect. Yes, the open defecation issue is a problem in rural India. India has built more than 4 crore toilets in the last 4 years. There is allocation for 2 crores more in the current budget. Thatís how democracy works. You may not be very familiar with it. Pakistan has a million more issues than India (including the same toilet issue you mentioned which is actually a bigger issue in Pakistan than in India) but Iím not going to make fun of poor people or a country as a whole like you did.

    That part about Laden doesnít make any sense much like the rest of your post. Like I said earlier, if youíve got something to say, state it clearly so that others can understand.

    You made some blanket statements on Kashmir but I donít want to go into that as that issue has been discussed a lot here already. Iím not going to fall for the Ďspitting on the flagí provocation trap in your post either . But that statement clearly tells us how much you hate India. All Iím going to say is, Kashmir will remain an integral part of India.

    Thereís a difference between patriotism and war-mongering. If you were really patriotic, you would be worrying and hence talking about the state of affairs in Pakistan. Instead youíre interested in talking about the fearlessness of the army, plans to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan, and the justifications for sending terrorists to India. The level of violence if we can call it that in your post (particularly that part about hanging someone) is unbelievable. Iím happy that Iím not the kinda Ďpatriotí you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Societal phenomena, really? I know a lot more about India and you are wrong.


    . It impacts the wider sociology of India. And one of the main points of Hindu nationalism is the belief that a dozen of modern nation-States, incl. Pakistan, belongs to a mystic geography called "Akhand Bharat".

    I could quote a dozen of instances of the pan-Pak references in their narratives, but the last one is with Indian actress invited to go to Pakistan because of some "anti national" role :

    Can you shed more light on how terrible Pakistani army is and why Pakistan should revolt against Pakistani Army.

    Can you also shed more light on why RSS and rest of militant group should continue to exist in India to protect Hindu from Muslims and little more justification of rise in militancy.

    Could you also please explain why the poverty level is so high in India despite being one of the power house of economy in South Asia.

    You seem well educated in all the above topics so it'll be informative to read about it.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 26th June 2018 at 14:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slipcatch View Post
    Can you shed more light on how terrible Pakistani army is and why Pakistan should revolt against Pakistani Army.
    There are two issues here, the impact of the Pakistani Army's behavior on Pakistani civilians and on India.

    1) The Pakistani Army dominates the country getting the best of everything, receiving economic benefits which should have instead been given based on merit and productivity,

    As Dr. Saqlain Shah tweeted recently "Bahria town recruiting retired Generals for management positions to work on real estate projects. Wonder if military's staff college started degree programs on property business."

    https://twitter.com/DrSaqlainSh/stat...95111453380608

    Read the following Washington Post article and tell me where it is wrong?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062601826.html

    "Active-duty or retired officers now occupy most key government jobs, including posts in education, agriculture and medicine that have little to do with defense. The military also dominates the corporate world; it reportedly runs a $20 billion portfolio of businesses from banks to real estate developers to bakeries."

    "History in Pakistan is on the generals' side. They have ruled the country for more than half of the 60 years since independence. Even when civilians have ostensibly been in charge, they have had to bow to the military just to keep their jobs. Of the nation's past three civilian leaders, two are in exile and one was hanged."

    "Yet the military's imprint is everywhere. It's by the side of the road, where men in orange jumpsuits labor for a military-run foundation that controls a huge share of the nation's construction industry. It's also present up and down the ranks of the civilian bureaucracy, where government workers answer to retired military men and complain that loyalty is consistently rewarded over hard work or competence. And it's in Riaz's health clinic, where his doctors say they take heat from army inspectors if they spend more than 10 minutes with a patient."

    "For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

    "For Pakistani professionals -- particularly highly trained lawyers, doctors and professors -- the movement has become a chance to decry intrusions in their fields by less educated military men. Civil society, they say, has badly atrophied during Musharraf's tenure."

    "In Rawalpindi, the teeming garrison town just down the road from Islamabad, retired and active-duty officers live in sparkling new gated communities that feature luxury homes, tree-lined streets and grassy parks. Mohammed Shafiq, a 36-year-old clerk, can see one such development from the weedy field in front of his old, squat brick home. "Before, people had good opinions of the army," he said. "Now they are afraid. If soldiers come, we think they are coming to take our land." Land is one of the military's most prized assets, distributed as a perk to top officers, with major generals getting at least 50 acres apiece."

    2. The Pakistani military is powerful within Pakistan because it is seen as defending Pakistan against India. This requires that India be seen as a threat. Constantly poking India and getting Indian retaliation helps making India seem as a threat.

    From the same article: "One reason for the changed attitude is geopolitical. Pakistan's military has traditionally acted as a bulwark against a hostile neighbor to the east, India. But relations between the two nuclear powers have been warming, and the threat has become less imminent."

    While the negative impact of the Pakistani Army is most on Pakistani civilians, the low level war also results in Indian lives lost.

    3. In history, military domination of a country has ALWAYS resulted in a bad economy. Don't expect to be any different.

    4. Getting Pakistan to advance economically is in the interests of the Pakistani civilians, especially the poor. If you think that you can continue having military domination along with economic growth you are mistaken. Think about this calmly.

    Can you also shed more light on why RSS and rest of militant group should continue to exist in India to protect Hindu from Muslims and little more justification of rise in militancy.
    Unlike the Pakistani Army, the RSS does not have a constitutional role in India. The RSS has little impact on India as such, and RSS members certainly are not given board memberships of India's largest corporations.

    If you believe that RSS poses a threat to Pakistan and the Pakistani Army is needed to defend the country, I have to tell you that is a delusion of a very high order. No country with any sense would want to take over Pakistan when it is beset with problems, or even if it were flourishing (which would still lead to a civil war).

    Could you also please explain why the poverty level is so high in India despite being one of the power house of economy in South Asia.
    From 1980 to 2015, the percentage of Indians in poverty has fallen from 61% to 21%. This trend continues as the economy grows at 7%+. India is by no means perfect, but it is making some progress at the moment, though it could easily fall behind again.

    India is doing well economically relative to Pakistan, but that in itself is unimportant. The context that makes it important is that India and Pakistan are similar, and the reason Pakistan is doing poorly is the behavior of its Army, which damages both Pakistani civilians and India.

    That which will benefit Pakistani civilians will also benefit India.

    You can compare the top ten exports of Pakistan and India to get an understanding of the divergent paths these two economies are on.

    http://www.worldstopexports.com/****...op-10-exports/

    http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias-top-10-exports/
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 26th June 2018 at 14:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    So you accept that Pakistan army is sending terrorists across the border because you want Kashmir from us. I appreciate your honesty. That answers the question in the OP as well.

    We do have some basic issues to address despite being the fastest growing economy on the planet. I don’t think anyone here would claim that India is perfect. Yes, the open defecation issue is a problem in rural India. India has built more than 4 crore toilets in the last 4 years. There is allocation for 2 crores more in the current budget. That’s how democracy works. You may not be very familiar with it. Pakistan has a million more issues than India (including the same toilet issue you mentioned which is actually a bigger issue in Pakistan than in India) but I’m not going to make fun of poor people or a country as a whole like you did.

    That part about Laden doesn’t make any sense much like the rest of your post. Like I said earlier, if you’ve got something to say, state it clearly so that others can understand.

    You made some blanket statements on Kashmir but I don’t want to go into that as that issue has been discussed a lot here already. I’m not going to fall for the ‘spitting on the flag’ provocation trap in your post either . But that statement clearly tells us how much you hate India. All I’m going to say is, Kashmir will remain an integral part of India.

    There’s a difference between patriotism and war-mongering. If you were really patriotic, you would be worrying and hence talking about the state of affairs in Pakistan. Instead you’re interested in talking about the fearlessness of the army, plans to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan, and the justifications for sending terrorists to India. The level of violence if we can call it that in your post (particularly that part about hanging someone) is unbelievable. I’m happy that I’m not the kinda ‘patriot’ you are.
    I did not accept anything other then the Kashmiris right to self determination. I also enlightened you over Indian and RAW involvement in Pak throug Afghanistan but we have taken care off that sending your terrorists to hell. That is why Pak is a much better place now compared to many years back.

    It makes perfect sense if you knew that Bin Laden had been killed many times before he was supposedly killed in Pak then given a funeral at sea One would have thought that the world's most dreaded terrorist would have been bought in front of the world if it were true!

    I must tell you that much of Kashmir is in Pakistan and we will take the rest as well like we took Pakistan! Your ancestors also said "we will never let Pakistan come in to existence" before they were thrown out!! You are right that I loathe India the country but there are good people everywhere. I do talk about the state of affairs in Pak however I am always ready to take care of the enemy as well. When you lot are obsessed with Pak in all your chat shows we can discuss about you wherever and we want as well
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 2nd July 2018 at 07:58.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I did not accept anything other then the Kashmiris right to self determination. I also enlightened you over Indian and RAW involvement in Pak throug Afghanistan but we have taken care off that sending your terrorists to hell. That is why Pak is a much better place now compared to many years back.

    It makes perfect sense if you knew that Bin Laden had been killed many times before he was supposedly killed in Pak then given a funeral at sea One would have thought that the world's most dreaded terrorist would have been bought in front of the world if it were true!

    I must tell you that much of Kashmir is in Pakistan and we will take the rest as well like we took Pakistan! Your ancestors also said "we will never let Pakistan come in to existence" before they were thrown out!! You are right that I loathe India the country but there are good people everywhere. I do talk about the state of affairs in Pak however I am always ready to take care of the enemy as well. When you lot are obsessed with Pak in all your chat shows we can discuss about you wherever and we want as well
    So you believe Laden is still alive? Wow .

    The decision to separate was not taken by India. It was taken by the British and they had some hidden agenda, which has come out through some of the declassified documents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    So you believe Laden is still alive? Wow .

    The decision to separate was not taken by India. It was taken by the British and they had some hidden agenda, which has come out through some of the declassified documents.
    You can't read???:I said Bin had been killed many times before the American's said they had killed him in Pakistan! The decision was taken when India invaded the valley, not saying that the British were completely innocent either. As partition was on the basis of religion Kashmir belongs to Pakistan.Your army are terrorists not liberators so I have no sympathy for them when they are killed


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    You can't read???:I said Bin had been killed many times before the American's said they had killed him in Pakistan!
    So? What are you trying to say? Laden wasnít in Pakistan?

    The decision was taken when India invaded the valley, not saying that the British were completely innocent either. As partition was on the basis of religion Kashmir belongs to Pakistan.Your army are terrorists not liberators so I have no sympathy for them when they are killed
    The British readily accepted the proposal because they saw a military base in Pakistan. A base they can use in the future. Itís very clear from the declassified documents what their intentions were. They didnít want to leave the subcontinent entirely.

    If our army were terrorists Kashmir would have become a graveyard by now. As long as you guys try to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan by funding and supplying terrorists, there wonít be much of an improvement in the relations. End the proxy war. Mind your own business.

    Anyways letís see what Imran Khan does to improve the relations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    So? What are you trying to say? Laden wasn’t in Pakistan?


    The British readily accepted the proposal because they saw a military base in Pakistan. A base they can use in the future. It’s very clear from the declassified documents what their intentions were. They didn’t want to leave the subcontinent entirely.

    If our army were terrorists Kashmir would have become a graveyard by now. As long as you guys try to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan by funding and supplying terrorists, there won’t be much of an improvement in the relations. End the proxy war. Mind your own business.

    Anyways let’s see what Imran Khan does to improve the relations.
    Yes! He was not in Pak at all. Do you believe in this funeral at sea nonsense?? Kashmir is a graveyard with thousands of unmarked graves which is why your military and government constantly refuses the UN to carry out investigations. Kashmir is our business whether you like it or not so deal with it and the Kashmiris carrying and being buried in Pak flags agree with us. One can not fund anything if the other side is not agreeable. Carry out a fair plebiscite, whatever the Kashmiris want Pak will agree to it and get the hell out of Afghanistan as well from where you having been supporting terrorism for the last 20 years. You can't have it both ways.


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    Actually India and Pakistan are infinitely more cooperative and open to bilateral discussions that North Korea and the USA.

    We both have active diplomatic missions to each other, we both have significant economic activity, there are no tariffs or barriers to trade between the two states, and there is even a rather permeable border.

    Yes we are hostile to each other, but we have our imaginary voices in the sky to blame for that. There is really little hostility between the two nations beyond communal politics and those are easily overcome as the hold of religious dogma weakens with increasing economic prosperity and education.

    I suspect that by 2030, India and Pakistan will likely be a lot more cooperative, not Canada - USA, but more like Germany - Poland.

    It would help if Pakistan were to experience economic prosperity as it would provide stability to the region and India should not blame all their problems to ISI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Yes! He was not in Pak at all. Do you believe in this funeral at sea nonsense??
    I donít know how to respond to this comment. Which world do you live in?
    Kashmir is a graveyard with thousands of unmarked graves which is why your military and government constantly refuses the UN to carry out investigations. Kashmir is our business whether you like it or not so deal with it and the Kashmiris carrying and being buried in Pak flags agree with us. One can not fund anything if the other side is not agreeable. Carry out a fair plebiscite, whatever the Kashmiris want Pak will agree to it and get the hell out of Afghanistan as well from where you having been supporting terrorism for the last 20 years. You can't have it both ways.
    Like someone said, if the situation in Kashmir is so bad, the Kashmiris would be migrating to some other place. You can bring UN or anyone. We donít have any issues. But many countries did question the move by that guy in the UN because of the suspicious motive. Nobody supported it.

    By the way, you talk as if youíre in some commanding position to dictate terms to India. Youíre not. You donít seem to understand where the two countries stand currently which is probably why you make these ďweíll do this to you, weíll do that to youĒ statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captain.hansolo View Post
    Actually India and Pakistan are infinitely more cooperative and open to bilateral discussions that North Korea and the USA.

    We both have active diplomatic missions to each other, we both have significant economic activity, there are no tariffs or barriers to trade between the two states, and there is even a rather permeable border.

    Yes we are hostile to each other, but we have our imaginary voices in the sky to blame for that. There is really little hostility between the two nations beyond communal politics and those are easily overcome as the hold of religious dogma weakens with increasing economic prosperity and education.

    I suspect that by 2030, India and Pakistan will likely be a lot more cooperative, not Canada - USA, but more like Germany - Poland.

    It would help if Pakistan were to experience economic prosperity as it would provide stability to the region and India should not blame all their problems to ISI.
    I agree. The relations between the two countries should improve and will improve. It’s a matter of time really.

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain.hansolo View Post
    Actually India and Pakistan are infinitely more cooperative and open to bilateral discussions that North Korea and the USA.
    NK and USA are not killing hundreds of the other country's citizens every year, unlike India and Pakistan.

    There is really little hostility between the two nations beyond communal politics and those are easily overcome as the hold of religious dogma weakens with increasing economic prosperity and education.
    The ordinary people are mostly not hostile to each other, but the Pakistani Army maintains its supremacy within Pakistan by waging a low-level war against India.

    I suspect that by 2030, India and Pakistan will likely be a lot more cooperative, not Canada - USA, but more like Germany - Poland.
    Fanciful thinking. If it hasn't happened in in 70 years, why should it happen in the next 12?

    It would help if Pakistan were to experience economic prosperity as it would provide stability to the region and India should not blame all their problems to ISI.
    Chicken and egg problem, which comes first? Pakistan will not get foreign investment and experience economic prosperity till the region is stable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captain.hansolo View Post
    Actually India and Pakistan are infinitely more cooperative and open to bilateral discussions that North Korea and the USA.

    We both have active diplomatic missions to each other, we both have significant economic activity, there are no tariffs or barriers to trade between the two states, and there is even a rather permeable border.

    Yes we are hostile to each other, but we have our imaginary voices in the sky to blame for that. There is really little hostility between the two nations beyond communal politics and those are easily overcome as the hold of religious dogma weakens with increasing economic prosperity and education.

    I suspect that by 2030, India and Pakistan will likely be a lot more cooperative, not Canada - USA, but more like Germany - Poland.

    It would help if Pakistan were to experience economic prosperity as it would provide stability to the region and India should not blame all their problems to ISI.
    There will never be "peace" because both nations represent contradictory paradigms (Islam vs secularism or rising Hindu nationalism). They somehow managed to survive without "peace" for some 70 odd years, they can afford many other decades as well. Pakistan should uplift itself economically, apart from its own industrialization/empowering the services sector, through regional integration with emerging powers like Iran or China, or even Turkey, which are not direct ideological foes to the TNT (two nation theory).

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    The situation of Kashmir for both countries is one with bad blood and potent wounds where both countries are essentially suffering death by a thousand cuts with pseudo conflicts and proxy wars being fought for domestic appeasement.

    The entire nature of the conflict is flawed in terms of any resolution coming to pass because it is more so an emotional battle than a struggle for supremacy and or one-up-menship. Kashmir was a pre-dominately Muslim province that was ruled by a Hindu prince, Hari Singh. According to the agreements about the settlements for the newly drawn nations, the princes and or rajputs would have to secede to the nation which was pre-dominately for their county's population. (Hindu to India, Muslim to Pakistan). Hari Singh has doomed the relationship between the two nations for 70+ years by refusing to cooperate with the well-wishes of his people and choosing India over Pakistan, which resulted in Pakistani forces being deployed in Kashmir and later Indian retaliation.

    The primary issue that the government of Pakistan faces with Kashmir is both an idealogical one as well a political one. As the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, its people cannot fathom to not support Kashmir because the population is majority Muslim and therefore a direct extension of the "Ummah", the idealogical global community of Muslims. But Kashmir offers more problems than advantages for the government if they are to pursue taking it from India, who withstanding three wars specifically on that very territory. India has far more to lose by giving into the desires of the Kashmiri demands, which include the threat of its security with Punjab plains and its capital, New Dheli being a mere six hours away, the potential shortage of water, disturbance of peace and its economy (not to mention the multitude of foreign investments) and fear of it becoming unstable a la Afghanistan, where the majority of the population and last three generations have been actively engaged in wars of defense rather than steadily progressing into a developing country like its neighbors.

    The prolonged conflict is reminiscent of the Austro-Russian complexity of the Balkans in the mid-to-late nineteenth century.

    The Russians were sympathetic to the Slavic population under the Austrian Empire but would have to risk war for them to become a part of the Pan-Slavic movement that they wanted to forge. Austria, fearing the Pan-Slavic sentiments of its powerful neighbor, managed for an occupation of Bosnia, which resulted in conflict with Serbia. The Serbian nationalists than managed to assassinate the heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which resulted in the first battle of WWI, between the empires of Austro-Hungary and Russia. The bloody and senseless Eastern Front stalemate brought millions of deaths and the removal of the monarchy in both nations.

    As a result, the best option for Pakistan would be take a leaf out of Bismark's policy under Germany and maintain complete neutrality with affairs relating to the Balkans (present day Kashmir in this example from history). To avoid history repeating itself, the government must understand that the idealogical wars that it fights are only beneficial in arguments of morality and not the affairs of foreign policy.

    However, this will never be because the government of Pakistan, is susceptible to public opinion far too adamantly and often, especially when the matter is concerned with another Muslim state/territory/population. This is why although I personally disagree with neutrality on the Kashmir issue and sympathize with their nationalistic echoes which fall on deaf ears on both sides, Pakistan and India will ultimately always remain hardline when it comes to resolution on Kashmir.


    "Preventive war is like committing suicide for fear of death" ~ Otto Von Bismarck

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    There will never be "peace" because both nations represent contradictory paradigms (Islam vs secularism or rising Hindu nationalism).
    Just because one country is Islamic and the other secular or Hindu does not mean they have to fight. To understand why Pakistanis and Indians are killing each other, you have to think about who is benefitting from the low-level war that exists between the two countries.

    Pakistan should uplift itself economically, apart from its own industrialization/empowering the services sector, through regional integration with emerging powers like Iran or China, or even Turkey, which are not direct ideological foes to the TNT (two nation theory).
    This is all a fantasy. Other than a highway to move goods to and from Africa, why should China invest in Pakistan? It already has all the low-cost labor it needs, so Chinese capital will stay in China. Iran is economically fragile and is perpetually subject to sanctions. What can it offer Pakistan? FDI for Pakistan or access to its markets? Also, if Pakistan cannot develop trade with India, why should it be able to live in peace with Shia Iran? Turkey is too far away and economically rather irrelevant, especially now that its dream of joining the EU is dead.

    Pakistan has to rely on itself to fix its economic problems. It has the talent to succeed, it just needs free its economy and stop doing stupid things like nurturing jihadis and outfits like the Haqqani network.

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Just because one country is Islamic and the other secular or Hindu does not mean they have to fight. To understand why Pakistanis and Indians are killing each other, you have to think about who is benefitting from the low-level war that exists between the two countries.

    This is all a fantasy. Other than a highway to move goods to and from Africa, why should China invest in Pakistan? It already has all the low-cost labor it needs, so Chinese capital will stay in China. Iran is economically fragile and is perpetually subject to sanctions. What can it offer Pakistan? FDI for Pakistan or access to its markets? Also, if Pakistan cannot develop trade with India, why should it be able to live in peace with Shia Iran? Turkey is too far away and economically rather irrelevant, especially now that its dream of joining the EU is dead.

    Pakistan has to rely on itself to fix its economic problems. It has the talent to succeed, it just needs free its economy and stop doing stupid things like nurturing jihadis and outfits like the Haqqani network.
    India will never accept the TNT, while Iran, Turkey or China have no such problem. Turkey, which will be one of the world's top 10 economies pretty soon, is one of the only pro Pak countries in the world, while Iran is also relatively pro Pak, if we take out some issues at the Balochistan border which can be sorted out if we get serious (see what Khamenei has to say ; Iqbal in fact is the single most influential intellectual for Iranians, read Hamid Dabashi.) Yes China builds infrastructure in order to extend its own economic clout and assure its geopolitical reach, but it now has vested interests in the country as well. Many Chinese companies have local subsidiaries, like Javed Afridi (Shahid Afridi cousin)'s Haier, and they know that they can reap enormous benefits if Pakistan's middle-class grow, they'll have more consumers. There's also the whole soft power angle which can be used by China.

    Ideally yes "every" country should "develop itself" (its industry/services), but what I'm saying is that India is not the only country in the world, and that if the two didn't have serious economic or "cultural" (? what ? Bollywood roles for 2-3 peoples ?) exchanges for 70 odd years without one of them committing suicide, nothing will or even need to change now, and that Pak could look at other emerging powers, in its mediate and immediate neighborhood.

    Also, nurturing jihadis is better than nurturing Hindu nationalist cow vigilantes.

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    India will never accept the TNT, while Iran, Turkey or China have no such problem. Turkey, which will be one of the world's top 10 economies pretty soon, is one of the only pro Pak countries in the world,
    Turkey's economy is not going anywhere, in fact with Erdogan's dictatorial behavior the entire country is on its way down. Turkey did well economically for a while, as a supplier of low-cost labor to EU. Its firms haven't developed the technology to sustain growth.

    while Iran is also relatively pro Pak, if we take out some issues at the Balochistan border which can be sorted out if we get serious (see what Khamenei has to say ; Iqbal in fact is the single most influential intellectual for Iranians, read Hamid Dabashi.)
    The only reason Iran and Pakistan haven't come to blows as yet is that they both have other countries they are at (low-level) war with. With the massacre of Shias by jihadis in Pakistan, and the ISI's nurturing of Taliban, there are too many friction points between the two countries. Yes, they may cooperate, only if they are desperate due to the pressure the international community is putting them under. Economically Iran doesn't have a lot to offer anyone, its exports are either commodities or low-tech items:

    http://www.worldstopexports.com/irans-top-10-exports/

    Yes China builds infrastructure in order to extend its own economic clout and assure its geopolitical reach, but it now has vested interests in the country as well. Many Chinese companies have local subsidiaries, like Javed Afridi (Shahid Afridi cousin)'s Haier, and they know that they can reap enormous benefits if Pakistan's middle-class grow, they'll have more consumers. There's also the whole soft power angle which can be used by China.
    You cannot make a profit from consumers who you have to give money to buy your things.

    Ideally yes "every" country should "develop itself" (its industry/services), but what I'm saying is that India is not the only country in the world, and that if the two didn't have serious economic or "cultural" (? what ? Bollywood roles for 2-3 peoples ?) exchanges for 70 odd years without one of them committing suicide, nothing will or even need to change now, and that Pak could look at other emerging powers, in its mediate and immediate neighborhood.
    I did not say that India is going to save Pakistan. I said only Pakistan can save itself by putting an end to shenanigans like nurturing jihadis and the Taliban.

    Also, nurturing jihadis is better than nurturing Hindu nationalist cow vigilantes.
    Not really. Hindu vigilantes are fringe in India, they have little impact though the media gives them a lot of publicity. They do not have enough power to influence foreign investors.

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Turkey's economy is not going anywhere, in fact with Erdogan's dictatorial behavior the entire country is on its way down. Turkey did well economically for a while, as a supplier of low-cost labor to EU. Its firms haven't developed the technology to sustain growth.
    Look at Turkey's GDP/capita evolution under Erdogan. A labor workforce export doesn't give such holistic results. The recent problems of Turkey's economy have a lot to do with the current geopolitical conjunctures. All objective indicators point out that it'll be a top 10 economy in a matter of few decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    The only reason Iran and Pakistan haven't come to blows as yet is that they both have other countries they are at (low-level) war with. With the massacre of Shias by jihadis in Pakistan, and the ISI's nurturing of Taliban, there are too many friction points between the two countries. Yes, they may cooperate, only if they are desperate due to the pressure the international community is putting them under. Economically Iran doesn't have a lot to offer anyone, its exports are either commodities or low-tech items:

    http://www.worldstopexports.com/irans-top-10-exports/
    In fact, to kill Shi'as, you obviously should have Shi'as, and that's the reason that post-revolutionary Iran has always regarded Pakistan (and India) with quite some enthusiasm : it's said that 10-15% of Pak's population is Shi'a. You just have to look at the speeches of the current leader, Khamenei, on Pakistan. Considering the volatile situation along the Balochistan border other nation-States would have already declared war. And I don't know why you keep mentioning the exports. It can change swiftly. Iran is a leader in nanotechnology, perhaps they'd shine in the future in such field. India itself invested in pharmaceuticals only in the 90%, after Singh's liberalization to stop the "Hindu rate of growth".

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You cannot make a profit from consumers who you have to give money to buy your things.
    But you can do enough for the same consumer to stand on its own feet and to buy from you in the future, from his own pockets. China is the longest continuing civilization in the world when it comes to written record, they have a long memory, and they know that if they help 2018 Pakistan by investing now the 2078 Pakistan middle class will buy their stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Not really. Hindu vigilantes are fringe in India, they have little impact though the media gives them a lot of publicity. They do not have enough power to influence foreign investors.
    That's your own perception. Hindu nationalism is on rise, and its systemic violence is for all to see, on religious minorities or Dalits.

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    I don’t know how to respond to this comment. Which world do you live in?

    Like someone said, if the situation in Kashmir is so bad, the Kashmiris would be migrating to some other place. You can bring UN or anyone. We don’t have any issues. But many countries did question the move by that guy in the UN because of the suspicious motive. Nobody supported it.

    By the way, you talk as if you’re in some commanding position to dictate terms to India. You’re not. You don’t seem to understand where the two countries stand currently which is probably why you make these “we’ll do this to you, we’ll do that to you” statements.
    I live on planet earth, happy? I asked you if you believed in what the American's said that Osama's funeral was at sea? Why should the Kashmiris give up their land to please India when that is what India wants so they can settle other people there.

    I am the one who says that UN is obsolete. What you can not do is stop Pak from claiming and morally supporting Kashmiris. I do not know if we are militarily supporting them or not but since it is disputed land I see no harm even if we are.

    Same here. You are no decision maker when it comes to what should be done in Kashmir or how Pak should behave. We owe you no explanation on it at all, understood?. These bullying tactics may work on Indian Muslim's but will always fail on Pakistanis coz we have no fear of you at all. I know India is militarily, diplomatically more powerful then us. I also realise that your economy is currently much better then ours however war does not work that way. Had it been the case the Americans would still not be stuck in Afghanistan. If you want peace then honour your ancient promises.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Yes! He was not in Pak at all. Do you believe in this funeral at sea nonsense?? Kashmir is a graveyard with thousands of unmarked graves which is why your military and government constantly refuses the UN to carry out investigations. Kashmir is our business whether you like it or not so deal with it and the Kashmiris carrying and being buried in Pak flags agree with us. One can not fund anything if the other side is not agreeable. Carry out a fair plebiscite, whatever the Kashmiris want Pak will agree to it and get the hell out of Afghanistan as well from where you having been supporting terrorism for the last 20 years. You can't have it both ways.
    Just as I condemn attempts by Indians to paint all their regional problems with a broad brush of 'ISI sponsored terrorism', you should depart from the foolishness of suggesting that there is a conspiracy against Pakistan.

    As an american, let me tell you this - Pakistan is meaningless to the US. In the grand scheme of American foreign policy, Pakistan is just a pawn, or rather just a name. You have some geopolitical significance, but then again, so does Nicaragua, or Senegal, or Eritrea.

    If you think that America would device a massive conspiracy to just malign Pakistan, you are grotesquely mistaken. You should protest our use of drone strikes in your nation, you should protest your military's insidious relationship with Taliban, you should protest your nuclear scientists selling the country's secrets to the highest bidder.

    But by challenging a verifiable, documented fact that Bin Laden was living in Abottabad at the time of his capture and execution, is absurd.

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    I live on planet earth, happy? I asked you if you believed in what the American's said that Osama's funeral was at sea? Why should the Kashmiris give up their land to please India when that is what India wants so they can settle other people there.

    I am the one who says that UN is obsolete. What you can not do is stop Pak from claiming and morally supporting Kashmiris. I do not know if we are militarily supporting them or not but since it is disputed land I see no harm even if we are.

    Same here. You are no decision maker when it comes to what should be done in Kashmir or how Pak should behave. We owe you no explanation on it at all, understood?. These bullying tactics may work on Indian Muslim's but will always fail on Pakistanis coz we have no fear of you at all. I know India is militarily, diplomatically more powerful then us. I also realise that your economy is currently much better then ours however war does not work that way. Had it been the case the Americans would still not be stuck in Afghanistan. If you want peace then honour your ancient promises.
    I agree, Kashmir should have the right to self determination.

    Unfortunately there is not a single political party that will permit a plebiscite as it would mean political suicide. No one party or party leader wants to be identified as the idiot who gave away Kashmir.

    The most tangible resolution, and this is also quite not palatable, is regional autocracy, a permeable border with Pakistan and a police force that comprises predominantly of citizens of the local region.

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain.hansolo View Post
    Just as I condemn attempts by Indians to paint all their regional problems with a broad brush of 'ISI sponsored terrorism', you should depart from the foolishness of suggesting that there is a conspiracy against Pakistan.

    As an american, let me tell you this - Pakistan is meaningless to the US. In the grand scheme of American foreign policy, Pakistan is just a pawn, or rather just a name. You have some geopolitical significance, but then again, so does Nicaragua, or Senegal, or Eritrea.

    If you think that America would device a massive conspiracy to just malign Pakistan, you are grotesquely mistaken. You should protest our use of drone strikes in your nation, you should protest your military's insidious relationship with Taliban, you should protest your nuclear scientists selling the country's secrets to the highest bidder.

    But by challenging a verifiable, documented fact that Bin Laden was living in Abottabad at the time of his capture and execution, is absurd.
    You should rightfully condemn India but spare me your nonsense of outsiders not involved in Pak coz I ain't having it!! What I will say is that India is not responsible for everything that goes on in Pak. Take your American pride and shove where the sun does not shine! I can tell you that being the only Muslim nuke power Pak is very important to America, you are no one to confirm otherwise. Sitting in Afghanistan for 20 years America's purpose is to denuclearise Pak at the behest of Zionists.

    The other countries you mentioned are not nuke powers so there is no comparison at all. America's is all about defending Israel and attacking anyone that is a threat to the Zionists state. Talk sensibly or shut your mouth! It is none of your business with whom our military has contacts with, why don't you condemn the CIA for terrorism throughout the world? Why don't you condemn Bush killing 2 million innocents Iraqis by lying the world they had "weapons of mass destruction??" It is America that arms and financially supports terrorists in Afghanistan who are attacking Pak. Don't you dare tell me otherwise!

    You militarily has relations with every terrorist organisation in the world or are you to ignorant to accept that? Pak under western and Indian puppet Nawaz and Zardari were in cahoots with the terrorists we all know that. Don't tell me what is nonsensical when American's are the biggest lairs in the world. I do not believe your baloney of Bin Laden buried at sea when he had been killed many times before his supposed death in Abbottabad. Naive people like you are to brainwashed by CNN and American media outlets to even think about disagreeing with them. Pak should further extend military support to the Afghan Taliban in Afghanistan to kill American soldiers. I totally support the Afghan Taliban who are trying to liberate their country from American invaders and terrorists.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain.hansolo View Post
    I agree, Kashmir should have the right to self determination.

    Unfortunately there is not a single political party that will permit a plebiscite as it would mean political suicide. No one party or party leader wants to be identified as the idiot who gave away Kashmir.

    The most tangible resolution, and this is also quite not palatable, is regional autocracy, a permeable border with Pakistan and a police force that comprises predominantly of citizens of the local region.
    Police force or any force is not gonna work! No side is willing to compromise, in a dog eat dog world there will be a final conflict with India. What belongs to Pak will one day return to its rightful place. We don't need America telling us what to do!


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Police force or any force is not gonna work! No side is willing to compromise, in a dog eat dog world there will be a final conflict with India. What belongs to Pak will one day return to its rightful place. We don't need America telling us what to do!
    You do realize that you have been greatly brainwashed and misguided into thinking that taking Kashmir away from India is the ultimate dream of a Pakistani which is what the Pak army, Pak government, ISI, wants you to think right? All this while the Pak leaders like Nawaz and Pak army loots the country, make back deals with extremist elements hide terrorists like Obl is the reason why Pakistan is in the sorry state that it is in. Open youíre eyes. India is not the enemy and while these thoughts occur Pakistan debt is going of the roof, extremist elements are carrying out suicide bombs, but you carry on continuing to think of Kashmir as some promised land and getting its people freedom is the ultimate sacrifice. India in its wildest dreams wishes it didnít have to deal with Kashmir as well by pouring millions into it by securing its defense. But the thought goes away in an instant when India realizes that it also does not want it to end up as another Syria or Afghanistan which makes matters 10 tines worse for India.

  48. #128
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    I believe it is just a matter of time before negotiations resume.

  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snak3eye5 View Post
    You do realize that you have been greatly brainwashed and misguided into thinking that taking Kashmir away from India is the ultimate dream of a Pakistani which is what the Pak army, Pak government, ISI, wants you to think right? All this while the Pak leaders like Nawaz and Pak army loots the country, make back deals with extremist elements hide terrorists like Obl is the reason why Pakistan is in the sorry state that it is in. Open you’re eyes. India is not the enemy and while these thoughts occur Pakistan debt is going of the roof, extremist elements are carrying out suicide bombs, but you carry on continuing to think of Kashmir as some promised land and getting its people freedom is the ultimate sacrifice. India in its wildest dreams wishes it didn’t have to deal with Kashmir as well by pouring millions into it by securing its defense. But the thought goes away in an instant when India realizes that it also does not want it to end up as another Syria or Afghanistan which makes matters 10 tines worse for India.
    So anyone who disagree's with your nonsense has been brainwashed?? No, Pak has many dreams like educating our people, opening world class hospitals and universities and becoming totally self dependent. The ISI and the government do not want Kashmire but the entire Pak nation does.

    I have already said that OBL being in Pak was a complete hoax, I do not believe in this "funeral at sea" story or rubbish at all. At least Pak is doing something about those who have looted the country. If you are Indian then what have you done to all Indian people whose name appeared in Panama leaks?? You are to afraid to do anything at all. India is also one of the most corrupt countries in the world with possibly worse politicians then ours make no mistake about that.

    Suicide bombers and violence is also every day news in Afghanistan and IoK as well. Had you cared to do some research would have realised that terrorism in Pakistan has reduced by some 80% over the last few years. There is no point trying to talk to naive and immature people like you. Wake up and smell the coffee coz you obviously don't have a scooby of what you are on about! India is already bursting with insurgency mostly unrelated to Pak. If India does not want rebellion and violence in the valley then give the people what they want, put up or shut up! The way India is going it will end up far worse then any current war zone.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.


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