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View Poll Results: Why can't India and Pakistan come to the negotiating table like US - N. Korea?

Voters
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  • Kashmir issue must be resolved first

    8 29.63%
  • Obstinate-selfish leaders

    11 40.74%
  • People don't want peace

    6 22.22%
  • Will happen eventually!

    9 33.33%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 81 to 97 of 97
  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    If you truly believed in the integrity of India you would never accept Pakistan in the first place. If you do, then you should have no problem recognising that Kashmir in it's entirety should be Pakistan and that is why you get the majority of Kashmiris bearing Pakistan flags.
    Who separated us? The British. When some people raised the demand for a separate country, they readily accepted it. There are reasons why they accepted it. It’s a large enough topic for another thread. That decision broke the hearts of so many people who fought for freedom together. Today India and Pakistan are two separate countries and are separated by a border. I respect that border.

    Why do you think Kashmir in its entirety should belong to Pakistan?! If I accept the existence of Pakistan I should also accept that Kashmir is a part of Pakistan? What kinda logic is that?!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Who separated us? The British. When some people raised the demand for a separate country, they readily accepted it. There are reasons why they accepted it. It’s a large enough topic for another thread. That decision broke the hearts of so many people who fought for freedom together. Today India and Pakistan are two separate countries and are separated by a border. I respect that border.

    Why do you think Kashmir in its entirety should belong to Pakistan?! If I accept the existence of Pakistan I should also accept that Kashmir is a part of Pakistan? What kinda logic is that?!
    The same logic that led to India becoming split into India and Pakistan, i.e, the split along religious lines which would have included Kashmir if it wasn't for some duplicity which rendered the whole process meaningless.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The same logic that led to India becoming split into India and Pakistan, i.e, the split along religious lines which would have included Kashmir if it wasn't for some duplicity which rendered the whole process meaningless.
    Kashmir isnít the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. Itís a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Kashmir isn’t the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. It’s a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.
    I have already heard the pro-India rhetoric from Indians, don't really need it parroted ad naseum, you asked for the logic I gave it.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I have already heard the pro-India rhetoric from Indians, don't really need it parroted ad naseum, you asked for the logic I gave it.
    The first three sentences in my previous reply basically tell you why that Ďlogicí doesnít make much sense.

    The OP asks why India and Pakistan arenít coming to the negotiating table. You and a few others here have clearly mentioned that Pakistan isnít coming to the negotiating table until Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan. I just said thatíll never happen because Kashmir is an integral part of India. Weíll be happy to improve relations with Pakistan and initiate programs that will benefit both countries. Weíve tried so many times for the same but you (rather, your army) just want to make Kashmir yours.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    The first three sentences in my previous reply basically tell you why that ‘logic’ doesn’t make much sense.

    The OP asks why India and Pakistan aren’t coming to the negotiating table. You and a few others here have clearly mentioned that Pakistan isn’t coming to the negotiating table until Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan. I just said that’ll never happen because Kashmir is an integral part of India. We’ll be happy to improve relations with Pakistan and initiate programs that will benefit both countries. We’ve tried so many times for the same but you (rather, your army) just want to make Kashmir yours.
    As I said, I don't really need to hear any more pro-India rhetoric where you make claims of open minded and generous approach (from your side) which isn't matched by reality. I have already made my position clear in the previous posts re Kashmir and the logic of it being Pakistan, if it you don't agree with it, then that is fine, but I have no further need to listen to your rhetoric. Thanks.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    As I said, I don't really need to hear any more pro-India rhetoric where you make claims of open minded and generous approach (from your side) which isn't matched by reality. I have already made my position clear in the previous posts re Kashmir and the logic of it being Pakistan, if it you don't agree with it, then that is fine, but I have no further need to listen to your rhetoric. Thanks.
    Come on man. Donít argue for the sake of it.. What do you think this is? India isnít a charity organisation. No country would ever give away its land. Why do you think itís such an easy solution? India giving away J&K? We wonít! Even if we consider it, the very long list of short and long term consequences will force us out of it. Weíre not lunatics.

    An open minded or generous approach is when youíre willing to listen to the concerns of the other party and look for a solution together. If Pakistan says to India ďhey look at the situation in Kashmir, itís not good. You should do something about it. Letís look for a solution. You look after your side of the border and weíll take care of our side and make sure there isnít any infiltration. Letís sign ceasefire agreements and strengthen our relations. Letís cooperate and bring peace to our borderĒ, the problems in Kashmir will effectively be solved. But that never happened. Instead,

    1) Youíre trying to make Kashmir yours. The agenda behind all this ďdiscuss KashmirĒ ďliberate KashmirĒ shouting is to make it a part of Pakistan. India knows it.

    2) None of your Governments has had the guts to shake hands with India and discuss the Kashmir issue in the manner I mentioned above. The army will override such a decision. Any plan to promote peace and trade relations between the two countries is met with strong disagreement by your army and they react to it through serious ceasefire violations and some other things, even embarrassing your Government.

    This is not rhetoric. This is the reality. But Iím someone who believes that things will fall into place eventually and India and Pakistan will be good friends. We just have too many things in common to be enemies forever .

    You might have different opinions. Letís agree to disagree then.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Kashmir isn’t the only place with Muslims in India. There were many non-Muslims in Kashmir. The ruler of Kashmir was a non-Muslim. He thought Kashmir could take advantage of its strategic location between India and Pakistan and decided to remain as a separate state initially. But he eventually decided to join India when he realised the threat of a Pakistani invasion. Kashmir is and forever will be a part of India. It’s a closed a chapter. India is currently focusing on reviving the economy of Kashmir. That along with eliminating the terror elements is the only way to bring peace to they valley.
    Kashmir issue isn't as simple as you are making it to be through your one side narrative. If according to you, Kashmir belongs to India because it acceded to it than what about other states in present day India that acceded to Pakistan ? India has no moral leg to stand on when it comes to Kashmir. Kashmiris want freedom from India and I hope they will be free one day.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstorm View Post
    Kashmir issue isn't as simple as you are making it to be through your one side narrative. If according to you, Kashmir belongs to India because it acceded to it than what about other states in present day India that acceded to Pakistan ? India has no moral leg to stand on when it comes to Kashmir. Kashmiris want freedom from India and I hope they will be free one day.
    Good point. Iím assuming that youíre talking about states like Gujarat. India did use force to annex it. We had the support of the British on that matter and it was settled without delay. Some of the other states were totally isolated and it was impractical to let them accede to Pakistan and were persuaded to join India. You have to understand that all this happened decades ago at the time of partition. The chapter was closed then and there. The only delay was in kicking the Portuguese out.

    The problem with Kashmir today is that itís practically impossible for India to let go of it. The consequences would be very serious and would be a strategic suicide. India would never do it. The Kashmiris who seek freedom from India donít have a clear reason for their demand. Kashmir has been given a special status which no other place in India has and they enjoy certain privileges too. Many of the problems they face are self inflicted.

    And like I said in my previous post, Kashmir canít exist as an independent state and will eventually function as an extension of Pakistan. India understands this very well. India also understands the problems faced by the people there and is trying to make it a better place to live and has been injecting a lot of money into Kashmirís economy and tourism. Armyís presence nowadays is not as strong as it used to be in the past. The situation there is slowly improving.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    It is PoK. Itís a part of Pakistan and we have no problems with it. You have to understand that what we see today is a post partition situation. Itís not like India attacked some other country and annexed some part of Kashmir. Itís been a part of India since partition. The China - Tibet issue is a more serious matter and comes under unlawful occupation but you guys seem to have absolutely no issues with it.

    What are Pakistan flag bearers doing in India? They are free to move to Pakistan if they wish. India (or any nation) only cares about people who want peace. Recently the NDA (National Defence Academy) conducted an entrance exam there in the valley and the attendance was very good. So donít paint the whole Kashmir Ďpro-Pakistaní. India offers far better facilities and options. There are many successful individuals from Kashmir and Kashmiri merchants are doing good business in different parts of India. Itís the situation in the valley thatís worrying everyone.

    You canít demand a discussion on J&K because you have no business in the internal matters of our country. The fact is that Kashmir cannot exist as an independent state. Both countries know this very well. If India let go of Kashmir itíll basically be a part of Pakistan. Itís very clear why Pakistan is so interested in it. An unstable Kashmir is not good for Kashmiris or for India but itís good for Pakistanís agenda. Thatís why I asked you whether you really care about the Kashmiris in India or not. We saw what happened to the Ramzan ceasefire agreement.
    Who you trying to fool bud! Watch your own programmes and see India wants Pak Kashmir badly. The valley was never part of India and never will be. Never mind Kashmir India has never really accepted Pakistan as a separate country at all. The ones with Pak flags in IoK are indigenous Kashmiris fighting for their land. You are the oppressors that will eventually have to leave. Maharashtraians and Punjabi's of India are no one to tell people of the valley to move to Pakistan! They are pro Pakistan and always will be, don't you dare tell me otherwise. They put their lives on the line to teach your military goons a lesson every day.

    So what if there are some Kashmiris doing well and living in other parts of the country? Many Palestinians are doing well living in Israel as well that is not to say they don't want independence. What I am seeing is 700,000 Indian thugs terrorising the people every day in the valley. If you are so honest then let the UN folk come in and see for themselves just how peace loving you are. All will be exposed when all those unmarked graves are found of innoocent people that your military has killed and you know it in your heart and conscience.

    It is not your "internal affair" at all hence we will keep meddling in it whether you like it or not. If two or more people or parties claim a thing then it becomes a dispute by default that is the case here. Even your Nehru admitted this so don't try to change the narrative now. Ceasefire makes no difference, the Kashmiris were fighting you before and will continue to do so until they get justice. Pak wants peace but not at the expense of our national interests.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    It is PoK. Itís a part of Pakistan and we have no problems with it. You have to understand that what we see today is a post partition situation. Itís not like India attacked some other country and annexed some part of Kashmir. Itís been a part of India since partition. The China - Tibet issue is a more serious matter and comes under unlawful occupation but you guys seem to have absolutely no issues with it.

    What are Pakistan flag bearers doing in India? They are free to move to Pakistan if they wish. India (or any nation) only cares about people who want peace. Recently the NDA (National Defence Academy) conducted an entrance exam there in the valley and the attendance was very good. So donít paint the whole Kashmir Ďpro-Pakistaní. India offers far better facilities and options. There are many successful individuals from Kashmir and Kashmiri merchants are doing good business in different parts of India. Itís the situation in the valley thatís worrying everyone.

    You canít demand a discussion on J&K because you have no business in the internal matters of our country. The fact is that Kashmir cannot exist as an independent state. Both countries know this very well. If India let go of Kashmir itíll basically be a part of Pakistan. Itís very clear why Pakistan is so interested in it. An unstable Kashmir is not good for Kashmiris or for India but itís good for Pakistanís agenda. Thatís why I asked you whether you really care about the Kashmiris in India or not. We saw what happened to the Ramzan ceasefire agreement.
    And you have to understand, just as when India makes statements about Azaad Kashmir being part of India, and protesting against CPEC because it goes through what India perceives to be its territory that does not fly with Pakistan either as India is totally off base. Azaad Kashmir is part of Pakistan, until the day a referendum is held throughout a united Kashmir. If India claims Pakistani territory, or it claims Pakistan is occupying Indian territory automatically puts Pakistan in a position of having the right to talk about IOK.

    Pakistan will talk about IOK, you telling Pakistan that it has no business means nothing. Just as how India responds when Pakistan tells India what happens in Azaad Kashmir is none of India's business.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Who you trying to fool bud! Watch your own programmes and see India wants Pak Kashmir badly. The valley was never part of India and never will be. Never mind Kashmir India has never really accepted Pakistan as a separate country at all. The ones with Pak flags in IoK are indigenous Kashmiris fighting for their land. You are the oppressors that will eventually have to leave. Maharashtraians and Punjabi's of India are no one to tell people of the valley to move to Pakistan! They are pro Pakistan and always will be, don't you dare tell me otherwise. They put their lives on the line to teach your military goons a lesson every day.

    So what if there are some Kashmiris doing well and living in other parts of the country? Many Palestinians are doing well living in Israel as well that is not to say they don't want independence. What I am seeing is 700,000 Indian thugs terrorising the people every day in the valley. If you are so honest then let the UN folk come in and see for themselves just how peace loving you are. All will be exposed when all those unmarked graves are found of innoocent people that your military has killed and you know it in your heart and conscience.

    It is not your "internal affair" at all hence we will keep meddling in it whether you like it or not. If two or more people or parties claim a thing then it becomes a dispute by default that is the case here. Even your Nehru admitted this so don't try to change the narrative now. Ceasefire makes no difference, the Kashmiris were fighting you before and will continue to do so until they get justice. Pak wants peace but not at the expense of our national interests.
    We donít want your Kashmir . Go through the history. Who started those wars? You did. India has a history of retreating from the land we captured from you after the war. India has absolutely no plan to takeover your Kashmir or your country. Weíre only interested in our side of the border.

    I donít think we have any problems with the ĎUN folksí coming. Declaring war on your country is not a human right. And you still think there are 7 lakh army men there?! Really tired of typing man. This video will answer a lot of questions:





    Quote Originally Posted by blackanhyellow View Post
    And you have to understand, just as when India makes statements about Azaad Kashmir being part of India, and protesting against CPEC because it goes through what India perceives to be its territory that does not fly with Pakistan either as India is totally off base. Azaad Kashmir is part of Pakistan, until the day a referendum is held throughout a united Kashmir. If India claims Pakistani territory, or it claims Pakistan is occupying Indian territory automatically puts Pakistan in a position of having the right to talk about IOK.

    Pakistan will talk about IOK, you telling Pakistan that it has no business means nothing. Just as how India responds when Pakistan tells India what happens in Azaad Kashmir is none of India's business.
    Agree with you. Azaad Kashmir or PoK, is a part of Pakistan. Isnít it like that right now? The CPEC is none of Indiaís business, although I must say Pakistan is playing a dangerous game. But itís still none of our business. The only worry is the construction through your side of Kashmir by China with malign intentions. We canít do much. But in the case of Tibet, India only fulfilled its duty.

    India doesnít go to the UN saying ďdiscuss Kashmir discuss KashmirĒ. And it doesnít see Kashmir as a hindrance for good relations between the two countries.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    We don’t want your Kashmir . Go through the history. Who started those wars? You did. India has a history of retreating from the land we captured from you after the war. India has absolutely no plan to takeover your Kashmir or your country. We’re only interested in our side of the border.

    I don’t think we have any problems with the ‘UN folks’ coming. Declaring war on your country is not a human right. And you still think there are 7 lakh army men there?! Really tired of typing man. This video will answer a lot of questions:







    Agree with you. Azaad Kashmir or PoK, is a part of Pakistan. Isn’t it like that right now? The CPEC is none of India’s business, although I must say Pakistan is playing a dangerous game. But it’s still none of our business. The only worry is the construction through your side of Kashmir by China with malign intentions. We can’t do much. But in the case of Tibet, India only fulfilled its duty.

    India doesn’t go to the UN saying “discuss Kashmir discuss Kashmir”. And it doesn’t see Kashmir as a hindrance for good relations between the two countries.

    India doesn't want good relations with Pakistan regardless of Kashmir, the cutting off of cricket ties which is seen as a Pakistani asset is proof enough. Cricket is seen as an asset for Pakistan and India uses it's dominance in that arena as a political weapon, if they can do that with sport, then you can be sure they will have the same approach with any other business with Pakistan.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhaag Viru Bhaag View Post
    Your 3rd point is pretty funny. How many enemies do we have? Why are we so obessed with Pakistan? Why do our politicians bring Pakistan during elections?

    Just replace India with Pakistan, Army with Politicians and Pakistan with India in your 3rd point and speak loudly.
    I am not sure finding facts from the real world funny is to your benefit.

    It is delusional to think there is any equivalence between Indian politicians who may occasionally rant about Pakistan ( I have lived in India for many years to know that is true) and the Pakistani military generals whose only justification for power is the bogeyman India.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Compare with the corruption unleashed by the "civilian" govt.

    You are being disingenious here. Hindu nationalism is not only about some deluded individuals, but a societal phenomenon which is translated into electoral successes as well as militantism pressuring Muslims who eat beef.
    Societal phenomena, really? I know a lot more about India and you are wrong.


    . It impacts the wider sociology of India. And one of the main points of Hindu nationalism is the belief that a dozen of modern nation-States, incl. Pakistan, belongs to a mystic geography called "Akhand Bharat".

    I could quote a dozen of instances of the pan-Pak references in their narratives, but the last one is with Indian actress invited to go to Pakistan because of some "anti national" role :

    [/quote]

    I say "13 persons" and you find a pic with exactly 13 persons to persons to prove my point, amazing!

    Also, everything is not about the economy.
    That is exactly what the millionaire Generals tell their countrymen who live in grinding poverty.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    India doesn't want good relations with Pakistan regardless of Kashmir, the cutting off of cricket ties which is seen as a Pakistani asset is proof enough. Cricket is seen as an asset for Pakistan and India uses it's dominance in that arena as a political weapon, if they can do that with sport, then you can be sure they will have the same approach with any other business with Pakistan.
    Trade relations between Pakistan and India were good in the past. I know people who even exported betel leaves to Pakistan! They actually made quite a lot of money out of it. A trade canít be forced. If Pakistan ainít selling India canít force them to sell and if Pakistan ainít buying India canít force them to buy.

    Indiaís stand currently is that terror and talks canít go hand in hand. Pakistan should put the people behind Mumbai attacks behind bars. Even the US has raised the same demand. Pakistan hasnít done anything. In such a scenario, we canít do trade or play Ďfriendliesí with you.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post
    Trade relations between Pakistan and India were good in the past. I know people who even exported betel leaves to Pakistan! They actually made quite a lot of money out of it. A trade can’t be forced. If Pakistan ain’t selling India can’t force them to sell and if Pakistan ain’t buying India can’t force them to buy.

    India’s stand currently is that terror and talks can’t go hand in hand. Pakistan should put the people behind Mumbai attacks behind bars. Even the US has raised the same demand. Pakistan hasn’t done anything. In such a scenario, we can’t do trade or play ‘friendlies’ with you.
    Can't be bothered going down the rabbit hole of " we did this only because you did that, blah blah", so let us agree that trade relations between India and Pakistan have been good in the past, same with cricket relations, so it's not impossible. But the current Indian govt is not interested in mutual benefit, neither does it think India needs it, it is more in Pakistan's interest hence even your own people will say on here, why bother?

    Does that mean Pakistan is blameless? Not at all, but clearly India is in the lead position in the region, perhaps the terror narrative suits them quite well at this time.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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