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  1. #1
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    Kapil Dev or Richard Hadlee in a World Test XI? Who is the better choice?

    Although not rated generally the equals of Imran Khan,Jacques Kallis or Ian Botham,both Kapil Dev and Richard Hadlee were a collosus as cricketers.Kapil Dev at his best was the equal of Ian Botham and consistently a better fast-medium bowler. Hadlee was the best ever bowler amongts genuine all-rounders statistically overshadowing even Imran Khan and a more than capable batsmen.

    Kapil Dev was one of the hardest hitters the game has ever seen creating the impact of a hurricane when batting in full flow.He carried a bat like a club and would execute the most imperious strokes to turn the complexion of a game.I can never forget his blitzkreig at Lords in 982 when scoring 89 and in 1990 when scoring 77.He also scored a test hundreds in West Indies versus the best ever Arguably bar Sobers no all-rounder has surpassed Kapil's batting in England in 1982 when he averaged 73 .He literals ripped the flesh of the bowling with scores of 41,89,65 and 97 scored in most critical situations.No paceman was better exponent of an outswinger as Kapil Dev .He troubled the greatest batsmen with his movement and impeccable length.On flat panacakes he had a haul of 434 wickets which is a phenomenal achievement.At his best when taking 32 wickets at 17.88 v Pakistan in 1979-80 and when taking 29 wickets at 18.53 v West Indies in 1983-84.His best figures are hauls of 9-83 v West Indise at Ahmedabad,8-85 v Pakistan at Lahore,8-129 v Australia at Sydney and 7-56 v Pakistan at Madras.Dismissed the great Zaheer Abbas and Viv Richards on countless occasions .Hi sbest all-round performnces were at Lords in 1982 when he scored 89 and 41 and took 5-125 and 3-43 and at Madars in 1983-84 when he took 7-56 and 4-90 and scored 84 with the bat.For a while in the 1980's Kapil was the best all-rounder in the world.On his day he could create an impact of a tornado in all departments of the game.Pure figures do injustice to the true impact of Kapil Dev.

    Hadlee was more restrained with the bat but has a test century against West Indies to his nae and several fifties in England including a century.In 1984 and 86 he overshadowed Botham as an all-rounder in England itself.However with the ball on a green top he wasp probably the best fast bowler ever.Mainly fast-medium but posessed more control than any bowler ever.Hadlee was a bowling machine who evaluated the weaknesses of great opponents with pin point accuracy.Like Kapil Dev bore the brunt of a weak bowling attack and had to single-handedly bear it's brunt.Statistically he was perhaps the best of all paceman and in peak era captured 330 wkts at around 19 runs with a strike rate of around 47 which is incredible.At times Richard got defensive when battered by oponents.

    So in the end only a whisker could seperate them.On a flat sub-continent wicket I would choose Kapil Dev because of his ability to move a ball on those type of surfaces.Hadlee at times could look helpless on a docile surface like at Lords in the bicentenary game of MCC v Rest of the World in 1987.Unlike Marshall he could not dig out the resources in such conditions.On a green top I would choose Hadlee with his exemplary control.Overall in perfect cricket conditions Kapil Dev will be my choice because he could turn a game equally with both ball and bat at his best Hadlee could not match Kapil Dev's audacity ion full flow.Also on a benign pitch Kapil could do more tricks with a ball.More times would Kapil Dv take 5 wickets and score a 50 in the same game as Hadlee.Still if I had to make a choice in an all-time xi Hadlee would come ahead of Kapil Dev in acompanying the likes of Sobers,Wasim,Marshall and Warne in a bowling attack giving it the perfect diversity.So to accompany Sobers,Imran or Kallis in an all-time xi I would rather choose Hadlee than Kapil as I would include him as fast bowler who could bat.Fast -bowling all-rounders have been greater match-winners.

    STATISTICS COMPILED FROM S.RAJESH IN CRICINFO BELOW

    Thanks to his improved batting skills, Hadlee was easily among the best allrounders in the world during the second half of his career. During the period between 1983 and 1990, only Imran Khan had a higher difference between batting and bowling averages (but Imran played as a specialist in some games during that period due to injury). The difference between Hadlee's batting and bowling averages was 13.39 - much superior to the corresponding numbers for Kapil Dev and Ian Botham.

    BEST ALLOUNDERS IN TESTS BETWEEN 1983 AND 1990 (QUAL: 1000 RUNS, 100 WICKETS)
    Player Tests Runs Average Wickets Bowl Ave Difference
    Imran Khan 40 2008 51.48 156 21.39 30.09
    Richard Hadlee 48 1883 33.03 262 19.64 13.39
    Malcolm Marshall 59 1423 20.62 301 19.64 0.98
    Kapil Dev 66 2621 29.78 204 30.11 -0.33
    Ravi Shastri 60 3172 38.68 112 42.72 -4.04
    Ian Botham 39 1890 30.48 114 36.90 -6.42
    There were several outstanding bowlers who were at the peak of their powers in the 1980s, but even among them Hadlee stood out. In the 11-year period between 1978 and 1988, his average of 19.57 was bettered only by Imran. Malcolm Marshall and Joel Garner had a slightly higher average, while Kapil and Botham find themselves at the bottom of the table below, with their averages almost 10 higher than Hadlee's.

    RICHARD HADLEE'S BATTING CAREER IN TESTS
    Period Runs Average 100s/ 50s
    First 40 Tests 1300 21.66 1/ 5
    Last 46 Tests 1824 33.16 1/ 10
    Career 3124 27.16 2/ 15

    BEST TEST BOWLERS BETWEEN JAN 1978 AND DEC 1988 (QUAL: 150 WICKETS)
    Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike Rate 5WI/ 10WM
    Imran Khan 58 272 19.39 47.8 19/ 5
    Richard Hadlee 60 330 19.57 48.4 32/ 8
    Joel Garner 53 234 20.27 50.6 7/ 0
    Malcolm Marshall 61 300 20.88 45.8 18/ 3
    Michael Holding 47 192 23.69 50.8 9/ 1
    Dennis Lillee 38 184 24.32 52.6 11/ 3
    Bob Willis 60 218 24.50 53.7 9/ 0
    Iqbal Qasim 44 155 27.38 75.2 8/ 2
    Ian Botham 92 363 28.07 56.0 25/ 4
    Kapil Dev 95 329 29.44 60.0 19/ 2
    Playing for one of the weaker teams in international cricket meant some of Hadlee's best performances went in vain, but there were several other occasions when he single-handedly won matches for New Zealand. On the 22 instances when he finished on the winning side, Hadlee took a whopping 173 wickets - that's almost eight wickets per match - at a spectacular average of 13.06, which remains the best among bowlers with 150 wickets in wins. In 22 matches Hadlee had 17 five-wicket hauls, including his career-best figures of 9 for 52 during an unforgettable performance against Australia in Brisbane.

    KAPIL DEV'S TEST CAREER IN THREE PARTS
    Period Runs Average 100s Wickets Average 5WI
    First Ten Tests 510 42.50 1 29 39.06 1
    Next 52 Tests 1973 27.40 2 218 26.19 17
    Next 69 Tests 2765 32.52 5 187 32.20 5
    Career 5248 31.05 8 434 29.64 23


    In the 1980s, Kapil was among the best bowlers against a line-up that included Viv Richards, Clive Lloyd, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes and Richie Richardson. He dismissed Greenidge eight times in Tests, and Haynes, Richards and Dujon seven times each. (Click here for more details.) In 19 Tests, Kapil's bowling average against West Indies was less than 23; among those who bowled at least 1200 deliveries against them during this period, only Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee, the two other great allrounders of the era, had better bowling averages. Ian Botham's numbers were a huge contrast to those of the three other allrounders, though: in 19 Tests he took only 58 wickets at an average of almost 36.

    BEST TEST BOWLERS VERSUS WEST INDIES IN THE 1980S (QUAL: 1200 BALLS BOWLED)
    Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike Rate 5WI/10WM
    Imran Khan 10 52 16.68 38.3 5/ 1
    Richard Hadlee 10 51 22.03 49.1 4/ 1
    Kapil Dev 19 72 22.98 51.4 4/ 1
    Abdul Qadir 8 40 28.07 55.2 1/ 0

  2. #2
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    Is this a joke? Hadlee is one of the finest bowlers the game has produced.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  3. #3
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    Kapil is not in the same class. 31/30 are not great stats in either discipline. Moderate medium pacer and ok bat. Combined make a good cricketer but not equal to ATG Hadlee.

  4. #4
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    Hadlee absolutely smokes Kapil in Test cricket, it's only in ODIs that Kapil would be superior

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bujhee kom View Post
    Kapil is not in the same class. 31/30 are not great stats in either discipline. Moderate medium pacer and ok bat. Combined make a good cricketer but not equal to ATG Hadlee.
    Do consider he bowled on sub-continent pancakes.Still captured 7 or more wickets 3 times in the sub-continent.-9-83,7-56 and 8-85.Hadlee has never equalled Kapil's 11-146 and 84 at Madras v Pakistan or 8-168 and 89 and 41 at Lords in 1982.With both ball and bat was Kapil more impactful.Count occasions Kapil has followed up a 5 wicket haul with a 50 .

  6. #6
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    You are itching for us to say Kapil was better. I saw both and Paddles was a league above.
    Imran bowled on pancakes too and ave 23. Dev just lacked the equivalent ability. He was 4/4 amongst the great AR of that era.

  7. #7
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    Hadlee aa a bowler alone ranks above Kapil, Imran, Botham for me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    Hadlee aa a bowler alone ranks above Kapil, Imran, Botham for me.
    As an allrounder where?Above Kapil Dev?

  9. #9
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    Hadlee was a superior test bowler. No question about that.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  10. #10
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    Undoubtedly Hadlee, Dev was the weakest of the quartet

  11. #11
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    In Tests,Hadlee.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    Hadlee aa a bowler alone ranks above Kapil, Imran, Botham for me.
    What about as an all-rounder ?like reply sir

  13. #13
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    Hadlee is a GOAT contender for bowling alone. He would walk into any test team even if he never held a bat. Kapil is nowhere near Hadlee in tests

  14. #14
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    That's like comparing kholi with akmal.

  15. #15
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    In the test format, I will always take Hadlee over Kapil. Simple reason is that Hadlee was the best bowler among those 4 all rounders and Kapil was not comparable to Hadlee in bowling.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Gomes View Post
    Hadlee is a GOAT contender for bowling alone. He would walk into any test team even if he never held a bat. Kapil is nowhere near Hadlee in tests
    Even as an allrounder?

  17. #17
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    Hadlee because bowlers win test matches.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Even as an allrounder?
    Yes. Please peddle your bias elsewhere.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Even as an allrounder?
    Yeah, even as allrounder. Hadlee's stats are extremely underrated here, he had better average compared to the likes of Steyn, Imran, Akram and Lille and his strike rate was better than the likes of McGrath, Ambrose and Holding.

    Here are Hadlee's rankings amongst all bowlers in tests (min 200 wkts)

    Average - 8th (only behind Marshall, Garner, Ambrose, Philander, Trueman, Mcgrath, Donald)
    Strike Rate- 8th (only behind Steyn, Waqar, Marshall, Donald, Philander, Trueman, Garner)
    5 wkts - 3rd (only behind Murali and Warne)
    Overall wickets - 8th (only behind Murali, Warne, Kumble, Mcgrath, Anderson, Walsh and Kapil)
    Away average (min 100 wkts) - 7th (only behind Barnes, Garner, Davidson, Ambrose, Mcgrath and Marshall)

    Hadlee is possibly the only bowler who's in top 10 by every bowling criteria except economy rate. That's why his batting average of 27 is enough to put him above any bowling allrounder.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    As an allrounder where?Above Kapil Dev?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    What about as an all-rounder ?like reply sir
    Harshy my brother just because sombody is an allrounder doesnt make him automatically better than players who excel exceptionally in one field.

    Classic example is Imran Khan. He has such great AR stats yet he rarely makes an ATG test XI or makes it to top 10 greatest cricketers of all time.

    At the end of the day you have to doninate the game in one aspect. Kapil was a great contributor and a legend of the game. I respect him for being the best AR of his era against West Indies but Hadlee as people already mentioned has a shout at being reckoned as the greatest fast bowker ever. He certainly was the most perfect and most complete fast bowler.

    Kapil amd no other AR was anywhere near with any aspect of their game as Hadlee with the ball.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    Harshy my brother just because sombody is an allrounder doesnt make him automatically better than players who excel exceptionally in one field.

    Classic example is Imran Khan. He has such great AR stats yet he rarely makes an ATG test XI or makes it to top 10 greatest cricketers of all time.

    At the end of the day you have to doninate the game in one aspect. Kapil was a great contributor and a legend of the game. I respect him for being the best AR of his era against West Indies but Hadlee as people already mentioned has a shout at being reckoned as the greatest fast bowker ever. He certainly was the most perfect and most complete fast bowler.

    Kapil amd no other AR was anywhere near with any aspect of their game as Hadlee with the ball.
    I would pick Imran the bowler ahead of Hadlee the bowler, simply because he never went defensive as Hadlee sometimes did.

    I watched Marshall take the new ball with Hadlee, and the Bajan made the Kiwi look ordinary.
    Last edited by Robert; 13th June 2018 at 14:03.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    As an allrounder where?Above Kapil Dev?
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I would pick Imran the bowler ahead of Hadlee the bowler, simply because he never went defensive as Hadlee sometimes did.

    I watched Marshall take the new ball with Hadlee, and the Bajan made the Kiwi look ordinary.
    @junaid

    I shouldn't have to reply to such outrageous claims in your presence bro. Please do the needful.

    Thanks.

    Bhaijaan.

  23. #23
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    Kapil Dev. Winner. Batting. Longivity. It is difficult to carry the torch by yourself for such a long time.

    Hadlee after injury was a swing medium pacer.


    Forgive when you are on top. Don't you want to be forgiven?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I would pick Imran the bowler ahead of Hadlee the bowler, simply because he never went defensive as Hadlee sometimes did.

    I watched Marshall take the new ball with Hadlee, and the Bajan made the Kiwi look ordinary.
    Not sure where you're getting Hadlee being defensive, he has better Strike rate than Imran, and far more 5 wkt hauls. Hadlee regularly won matches for NZ by himself. Marshall making Hadlee ordinary for 1 match doesn't mean anything lol

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Is this a joke? Hadlee is one of the finest bowlers the game has produced.
    Where is the joke in that? Hadlee is better but Kapil is a great of the game himself.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    @junaid

    I shouldn't have to reply to such outrageous claims in your presence bro. Please do the needful.

    Thanks.

    Bhaijaan.
    @Junaids knows what I mean as he has seen all those bowlers bowl. His understanding amounts to more than just looking at spreadsheets.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khan12 View Post
    That's like comparing kholi with akmal.
    Both the akmals combined are not enough to tie kapil's shoelaces.

  28. #28
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    Hadlee obviously. Just look at the no. of 5-fers he has taken.

    Kapil in odis gets the nod though and he is an ATG in tests as well. Richard Hadlee however is a GOAT.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    Hadlee obviously. Just look at the no. of 5-fers he has taken.

    Kapil in odis gets the nod though and he is an ATG in tests as well. Richard Hadlee however is a GOAT.
    As an allrounder?Kapil not on par with Hadlee?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    As an allrounder?Kapil not on par with Hadlee?
    As an all-rounder, yes he is but there is a gulf of difference between their bowling abilities. I will take a bowler like Hadlee who can bat a bit in the mould of Ashwin over someone like Kapil who himself was one of the greats of game.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ab Fan View Post
    As an all-rounder, yes he is but there is a gulf of difference between their bowling abilities. I will take a bowler like Hadlee who can bat a bit in the mould of Ashwin over someone like Kapil who himself was one of the greats of game.
    Overall who was the better allrounder?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @Junaids knows what I mean as he has seen all those bowlers bowl. His understanding amounts to more than just looking at spreadsheets.
    Like claiming that some random English trundlers from the 30s and 40s were faster than Lee and Akhtar and Bond.

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    Hadlee.

  34. #34
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    Hadlee in all formats. He was extremely good even in ODIs.

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    Hadlee hands down for me. Kaps was probably a better batsman nonetheless the gap in bowling between the two was much greater. Hadlee mostly performed in big matches.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

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    Has to be Hadlee. If Kapil averaged around 38-39 (which he was well capable of) this might have been closer contest.

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    Richard Hadlee as he was a better bowler than Kapil in Tests. Kapil was a good all-Rounder but Hadlee was just too superior a bowler to offset the advantage.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul1 View Post
    Like claiming that some random English trundlers from the 30s and 40s were faster than Lee and Akhtar and Bond.
    No, just faster than any Indian.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Overall who was the better allrounder?
    Better genuine all-rounder:- Kapil Dev.
    More valuable player to the team:- Richard Hadlee because he will walk into most team as their no.1 bowler and will do a good job as a no.8 batsmen.

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    Haddle , I would pick .

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    I rate geniuses based upon something extra ordinary they could do in an important series/matches, which others couldn't. So if you are selecting a World XI for a 4 year contract, you could have Hadlee or even Imran. However, if you are selecting a world XI for a championship, then Kapil is your man.

    Kapil Dev had 2 careers - until he won the WC at the age of 24, and his career post that. To win a world cup for an Asian captaining an ordinary side, all by the age of 24 meant he really hadn't much more left to achieve in cricket. Post that, he became a difficult and inconsistent cricketer. But until 83-84, he was perhaps the best allrounder of 4 and had accomplished significantly more than the other 3.

    During 83 World cup, he averaged 60 with bat, 20 with ball, economy rate of 2.9, highest scorer of world cup, maximum catches in world cup and an extra ordinary catch of Viv Richards in final to turn the match
    on its head. Kapil's USP was doing extra ordinary things at important times.

    My sense is part of the reason Kapil often gets disrespected on this forum is because of most of PPers' inherent sense of insecurity about Imran Khan. They would want everyone to accept Imran Khan as best allrounder ever. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Imran had his peaks, so did Kapil. But Kapil achieved so much so early in life, which others couldn't even dream of.

  42. #42
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    Kapil the bowler was held back by having to carry the Indian attack on unhelpful wickets. I rate him a better bowler than Botham.

    He should have scored more test runs, though.

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    Imran>Botham>Hadlee>Kapil


    Aanay do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by as-95 View Post
    Imran>Botham>Hadlee>Kapil
    As a pure fast bowler who was the best amongst them?In what order?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    As a pure fast bowler who was the best amongst them?In what order?
    Imran > Hadlee > Kapil > Botham

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    Quote Originally Posted by happydavy View Post
    I rate geniuses based upon something extra ordinary they could do in an important series/matches, which others couldn't. So if you are selecting a World XI for a 4 year contract, you could have Hadlee or even Imran. However, if you are selecting a world XI for a championship, then Kapil is your man.

    Kapil Dev had 2 careers - until he won the WC at the age of 24, and his career post that. To win a world cup for an Asian captaining an ordinary side, all by the age of 24 meant he really hadn't much more left to achieve in cricket. Post that, he became a difficult and inconsistent cricketer. But until 83-84, he was perhaps the best allrounder of 4 and had accomplished significantly more than the other 3.

    During 83 World cup, he averaged 60 with bat, 20 with ball, economy rate of 2.9, highest scorer of world cup, maximum catches in world cup and an extra ordinary catch of Viv Richards in final to turn the match
    on its head. Kapil's USP was doing extra ordinary things at important times.

    My sense is part of the reason Kapil often gets disrespected on this forum is because of most of PPers' inherent sense of insecurity about Imran Khan. They would want everyone to accept Imran Khan as best allrounder ever. Unfortunately, that's not the case. Imran had his peaks, so did Kapil. But Kapil achieved so much so early in life, which others couldn't even dream of.
    Kapil was never the best of the 4. Ever. ITB was for a while. Then Khan was for a decade. Indians always try to re-write history. Shakib is better than Kapil. That is the truth.

    Ave 30 with the ball and 31 with the bat is not some immense achievement.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @Junaids knows what I mean as he has seen all those bowlers bowl. His understanding amounts to more than just looking at spreadsheets.
    The two of you can't stand up and debate like grown ups even if your life depended on it and then you have the nerve to take pot shots? Talk about being completely devoid of shame.

    Here is the thing: you will get completely owned if you ever decided to engage in a lengthy facts based debate ( as opposed to story telling) over the old era cricket. Perhaps that realization has occurred to you hence the better option of throwing barbs and running away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    The two of you can't stand up and debate like grown ups even if your life depended on it and then you have the nerve to take pot shots? Talk about being completely devoid of shame.

    Here is the thing: you will get completely owned if you ever decided to engage in a lengthy facts based debate ( as opposed to story telling) over the old era cricket. Perhaps that realization has occurred to you hence the better option of throwing barbs and running away.
    In test Matches , Imran is well ahead . In OD Kapil was superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    In test Matches , Imran is well ahead . In OD Kapil was superior.
    I don't think he was. Imran was a much more reliable batsman that Kapil even in ODIs. KD was a slogger - that is the truth. Take away his 175* against (then) non-test minnows Zimbabwe, and he averages about 20 with the bat.

    His bowling was better but Imran was a genuine fast bowler. Kapil was a trundler.

    I saw loads of both. Anyone who saw both (and was not blinded by bias) could see that Imran was leagues ahead as a cricketer.

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    To be fair to the Zim side of the day, they did put Australia out of the World Cup. They were on the point of skittling India too, before Kapil went bezerk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    The two of you can't stand up and debate like grown ups even if your life depended on it and then you have the nerve to take pot shots? Talk about being completely devoid of shame.

    Here is the thing: you will get completely owned if you ever decided to engage in a lengthy facts based debate ( as opposed to story telling) over the old era cricket. Perhaps that realization has occurred to you hence the better option of throwing barbs and running away.
    Funny that you of all people are talking about a "facts based debate", something in which your entire modus operandi always has been to neglect and disregard every stat that doesn't suit your narrative

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    Quote Originally Posted by bujhee kom View Post
    I don't think he was.
    There was decent gap in ratings of Kapil and IK in ODI format.

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    Gap is even bigger when it comes to Shakib.

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    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    While Kapil brings more as a A/R in comparison to Hadlee. Hadlee would be a easy pick as he is among the greatest test bowler in history.

    In ODI's Kapil would easy pick among the two.


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proactive_ View Post
    Funny that you of all people are talking about a "facts based debate", something in which your entire modus operandi always has been to neglect and disregard every stat that doesn't suit your narrative
    See this is why it is important to tell the story exactly as it is .... for instance why don't you show us the threads where these stats were supposedly neglected ? The last time I checked you had quietly ran away from numerous threads.

    And I can guarantee you that the outcome of this thread will be no-different - you will run-away tail between legs
    Last edited by AssassinatedDevil; 16th June 2018 at 03:29.


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    Hadlee, any day of the week. Guy was a top-class bowler while Kapil was not top class at anything. Botham vs Kapil makes for a better discussion.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  56. #56
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    Hadlee easily

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    There was decent gap in ratings of Kapil and IK in ODI format.

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    This stat/graph proves everything wrt who was the superior all rounder in ODIs. But a few ppl are just too touchy on this forum when it comes to Imran.

    Imran was a great player but there have been many greater cricketers than me, whether or not you like it. PPers rate him as some form of best captain but forget to see that inspite of all the hype he won just 14 test matches of 50 he captained. And this is when he had some serious great bowlers and batsmen at his disposal. Misbah had a far better record captaining Pakistan with limited potential in team and against far better organised and skilled teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    In test Matches , Imran is well ahead . In OD Kapil was superior.
    That was a general comment in response to the juvenile post by @Robert who has a history of running away from threads when his stories are subjected to some basic scrutiny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    That was a general comment in response to the juvenile post by @Robert who has a history of running away from threads when his stories are subjected to some basic scrutiny.
    You do not consider Imran ahead in Test matches ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justcrazy View Post
    You do not consider Imran ahead in Test matches ?
    my response to Robert had nothing to do with that comparison.

    That said the comparison is not fair as one did not believe in mangling the ball where as the other did.


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    Hadlee in Tests, but Kapil in ODI's. Kapil is extremely underrated on this forum for obvious reasons, but the guy was a proven matchwinner in ODI's in particular as anyone from the previous generation can attest. He also really destroyed his legacy for playing on for waaay too long.

    Hadlee was up there with Imran as a bowler in Tests, and was definitely a better ODI bowler which the stats confirm as well. However, as an all-round package especially in Tests, Imran would walk-in everyday of the week.

    To Summarize:

    Test A/R:
    1. Imran
    2. Hadlee/Botham
    3. Kapil

    ODI A/R
    1. Kapil
    2. Imran/Hadlee
    3. Botham

    Overall:
    I'd take Imran as the definite all-rounder across formats for sure. As a pure-bowler, I'd actually take Hadlee though that's probably not a popular opinion here.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    my response to Robert had nothing to do with that comparison.

    That said the comparison is not fair as one did not believe in mangling the ball where as the other did.
    What is your opinion , regarding the four all rounders of that era ( not limited to Imran and Kapil )

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rishta Aunty View Post
    Hadlee in Tests, but Kapil in ODI's. Kapil is extremely underrated on this forum for obvious reasons, but the guy was a proven matchwinner in ODI's in particular as anyone from the previous generation can attest. He also really destroyed his legacy for playing on for waaay too long.

    Hadlee was up there with Imran as a bowler in Tests, and was definitely a better ODI bowler which the stats confirm as well. However, as an all-round package especially in Tests, Imran would walk-in everyday of the week.

    To Summarize:

    Test A/R:
    1. Imran
    2. Hadlee/Botham
    3. Kapil

    ODI A/R
    1. Kapil
    2. Imran/Hadlee
    3. Botham

    Overall:
    I'd take Imran as the definite all-rounder across formats for sure. As a pure-bowler, I'd actually take Hadlee though that's probably not a popular opinion here.
    Bowling: Imran > Hadlee > Kapil > Botham

    Batting: Botham > Imran > Kapil > Hadlee

    Fielding: Botham > Kapil > Imran = Hadlee

    That’s just tests mind, I never paid much attention to ODIs. Will watch WC matches featuring England.
    Last edited by Robert; 17th June 2018 at 08:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Bowling: Imran > Hadlee > Kapil > Botham

    Batting: Botham > Imran > Kapil > Hadlee

    Fielding: Botham > Kapil > Imran = Hadlee

    That’s just tests mind, I never paid much attention to ODIs. Will watch WC matches featuring England.
    Overall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    Overall?
    Imran. One of the best fast bowlers in history, a capable test match #6 and an excellent inspirational skipper who won series in England and India.

    If I could have two in my team I would also pick Hadlee because bowlers win matches.

    But, from 1977-82 I would pick Botham who averaged nearly 40 with the bat and 24 with the ball.
    Last edited by Robert; 17th June 2018 at 09:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harsh Thakor View Post
    As a pure fast bowler who was the best amongst them?In what order?
    As a pure fast bowler it’s Imran>Hadlee>Botham>Kapil

    As an all rounder it would be Imran>Botham>Hadlee>Kapil.

    Kapil is the outlier here as he is a class below Hadlee and Botham whereas Imran is in a league of his own!


    Aanay do!

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    This debate/discussion around the great 4 all-rounders of 80's have been ongoing since 80s. Probably this has been the single most discussed topic in the history or cricket and shows how great these 4 were.

    Strictly speaking between Kapil and Hadlee, Hadlee should take this if we are looking for a bowler. If you are looking for an all-rounder I doubt Hadlee was ever above Kapil. As great a bowler a Kapil was, people used to turn out to see him bat. He was the most dynamic bat amongst the four. Hadlee was easily the worst. Matter of fact I cant recall one good test innings from Hadlee ( I had the privilege of seeing all these players at their peak). Kapil also had the chutzpah that belies word. I have seen him watched him bounced by Holding, reckoned by Imran as fastest ever, and hitting Holding to six, then coming back the same day and hitting Holding on the helmet smack with a bouncer as if settling scores and asking what would Holding do next.

    This is not to deride Hadlee at all. He was a terrific bowler and I recall with amazement at his last series in India where he was running off a small run up and picking Indian batsmen with ease. (Kapil struggled much through the series).

    So Kapil does it for me. In one day it is not even a contest.

    One of the best analogies I ever heard about the 4 great all-rounders actually came from one of the noted film critic in India. Likely Raju Bharatan (I could be mistaken on this). He had compared the 4 greats to the star cast of SHOLAY, the great Hindi movie hit. SHOLAY had 4 top draw - Dharmendra, Amitabh, Amjad and Sanjeev Kumar. And pretty much every one has his own favorites. (For most it is Amjad Khan, for me it remains Amitabh..and in all rounders it was Kapil)
    Last edited by Parosi_Lurker; 18th June 2018 at 03:45.


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