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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Let's not whitewash history. The atrocities of Muslim invaders in the Indian subcontinent have been well-documented. I don't want to derail this topic by going into too much detail, so I will only provide a very brief overview.

    Muslims had no business invading other nations and were no different to the neocon Americans who believe in their supremacy. The narrative that we have been sold over the generations of how the Muslims conquerers saved us from tyrannical non-Muslims rulers couldn't be further from the truth.

    There is a good reason why Sindhis do not like the Arabs. The ignorant people here should read Chach Nama, the actual history of Sindh, penned by Sindhis in Sindhi.

    When Muhammad bin Qasim invaded Sindh and usurped Raja Dahir, the last Hindu ruler of Sindh and our real hero, his daughter took revenged by tying him up and stitching him in the carcasses of a bull. He was dragged along the scorching desert of Sindh and he was baked inside the bull, which served the purpose of an oven.

    He was then shipped to Syria. This was the fate of the Muslim invader whom we now consider a hero who played a big role in the liberation and enlightenment of South Asia.

    Another grave fact is that origination of Sati, i.e. the practice of Hindu women burning themselves after the death of their husbands. When Muslims invaders butchered Hindu men, they would rape the women. In order to protect their dignity, the women were left with no choice but to take their own lives.

    This is why Sati was common in North-West India, and virtually unheard of in the South because Muslims invaders failed in the South. However, history has been re-written and in order to hide their atrocities, Muslims now paint a different narrative and argue that the practice of Sati was deep-rooted in India long before Muslims arrived, even though, the historical proofs do not back their false claims.

    History is ugly, it always is. History of Muslims and their conquests is no different to any other empire, who committed all the atrocities that they were capable of to have their way. It is a fact that Muslims have tortured and oppressed Hindus, and it is bitter truth about our history that we should accept and not hide.
    ChachNama is penned by Sindhis? You do know it's a translation and not penned by Sindhis

    As for Sati - There's records of that from as far back as the 5th century before Islam was even revealed. Unless these Muslim invaders had a time machine I have no idea what you are on about

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    ChachNama is penned by Sindhis? You do know it's a translation and not penned by Sindhis

    As for Sati - There's records of that from as far back as the 5th century before Islam was even revealed. Unless these Muslim invaders had a time machine I have no idea what you are on about
    Well having gone through the rest of the thread it is clear Mamoon is a bit out of depth on this thread topic and is making up quite a few things either on the fly or based on his personal viewpoints.

    @TM Riddle generally seems to be a decent knowledgeable poster regarding history topics despite his over the top glorification of Rajputs sometimes

    On a final note - Invasions into what constituted British India and subsequent plunder aren't an exclusively Muslim invaders thing and was happening for centuries before that. However you don't hear much hoopla about that so it's clear that this is based on a political angle. Heck plunder and destruction has happened within what British colonialists termed as India even by one Indian empire on another

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Mamoon thats a big big lie on your part and honestly now I'm not even sure whether you have read anything about history of South India.
    I urge you read more on Mughal campaigns in South and how after end of fierce resistance by Malik Ambar they managed to take almost all of South under their control (Shivaji and Marathas aside but thats a different topic altogether)
    You didn't answer my earlier question. Do you consider TN and Kerala as part of South India or a separate landmass? In that case you will need to elaborate why every single temple is standing here and there is no trace of Mughal architecture or culture. Either you are totally out of your depth when it comes to Tamil history or the Islamic invaders as you claim didn't have the habit of pulling down temples.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Let's not whitewash history. The atrocities of Muslim invaders in the Indian subcontinent have been well-documented. I don't want to derail this topic by going into too much detail, so I will only provide a very brief overview.

    Muslims had no business invading other nations and were no different to the neocon Americans who believe in their supremacy. The narrative that we have been sold over the generations of how the Muslims conquerers saved us from tyrannical non-Muslims rulers couldn't be further from the truth.

    There is a good reason why Sindhis do not like the Arabs. The ignorant people here should read Chach Nama, the actual history of Sindh, penned by Sindhis in Sindhi.

    When Muhammad bin Qasim invaded Sindh and usurped Raja Dahir, the last Hindu ruler of Sindh and our real hero, his daughter took revenged by tying him up and stitching him in the carcasses of a bull. He was dragged along the scorching desert of Sindh and he was baked inside the bull, which served the purpose of an oven.

    He was then shipped to Syria. This was the fate of the Muslim invader whom we now consider a hero who played a big role in the liberation and enlightenment of South Asia.

    Another grave fact is that origination of Sati, i.e. the practice of Hindu women burning themselves after the death of their husbands. When Muslims invaders butchered Hindu men, they would rape the women. In order to protect their dignity, the women were left with no choice but to take their own lives.

    This is why Sati was common in North-West India, and virtually unheard of in the South because Muslims invaders failed in the South. However, history has been re-written and in order to hide their atrocities, Muslims now paint a different narrative and argue that the practice of Sati was deep-rooted in India long before Muslims arrived, even though, the historical proofs do not back their false claims.

    History is ugly, it always is. History of Muslims and their conquests is no different to any other empire, who committed all the atrocities that they were capable of to have their way. It is a fact that Muslims have tortured and oppressed Hindus, and it is bitter truth about our history that we should accept and not hide.
    Mention of the practice can be dated back to the 3rd century BC,[6] .
    Got this from wkipedia which uses the book The First Spring: The Golden Age of India as a source.What Muslim
    King was there in the 3rd century?


    Its clear you are either misinformed or making stuff up. Whatever the case, the fact you made up stories about origins of Sati, takes away credibility from your lengthy essay.

  5. #245
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    This isn't 100% accurate but will give a general idea about history of the Indian subcontinent.



  6. #246
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    Many apologists ganging up against Mamoon because he mistook jauhar for sati. Jauhar was the practice of mass suicide to escape from the barbarian invaders, who seem to have many defenders because of shared faith. Shame on those who glorify the barbarians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Well having gone through the rest of the thread it is clear Mamoon is a bit out of depth on this thread topic and is making up quite a few things either on the fly or based on his personal viewpoints.

    @TM Riddle generally seems to be a decent knowledgeable poster regarding history topics despite his over the top glorification of Rajputs sometimes

    On a final note - Invasions into what constituted British India and subsequent plunder aren't an exclusively Muslim invaders thing and was happening for centuries before that. However you don't hear much hoopla about that so it's clear that this is based on a political angle. Heck plunder and destruction has happened within what British colonialists termed as India even by one Indian empire on another
    He must have mixed Jauhar with Sati which are two often mixed up.
    There are evidences of Sati dating as far back to Vedic times. It was hugely popular in the Chola kingdom down south as well.
    Jauhar imo began after Muslim attacks in North India became a common sight.
    It had two components : Jauhar and Shaka.
    Under this, when the seige was about to be lifted and defeat was certain(owing to large numerical superiority of the enemy), Rajputs would ready themselves to go into the final battle of their lifetime. They would clean themselves up via ritual bathing, Vedic ceremonies would be held, kesariya(, saffron) cloth would be tied around their heads, Tulsi leaves in mouth and Tika on the forehead. After having aarti and Pooja done by their wives, they would storm outside to face enemy one last time. The goal was to die and take as many as you can with you. This brutal practice was known as Shaka and there has been many incidences of it in areas of former Rajput stronghold.

    In the meantimeThe Rajput women would ready themselves up by wearing bridal dress and after the completion of religious ceremonies would go into the funeral pyre collectively.
    Remember this happened before the eyes of their husbands and right before the Shaka was performed(unlike Sati which was done after the husband was dead).
    After watching their wives burnt to crisp, the medieval Rajputs would hurry up themselves so as to join them in afterlife as soon as they could.

    This was of course a backward practice but those were different times. Brutal times.
    The reason why the women burnt themselves up and not simply consumed poison was to prevent their dead bodies from getting desecrated by invading armies which was a common practice.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  8. #248
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    Most punjabi rajputs are muslim around 20million or so in Pakistan, I don't think there are many punjabi rajputs in India, the rajputs there are rajasthani and other types.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    Most punjabi rajputs are muslim around 20million or so in Pakistan, I don't think there are many punjabi rajputs in India, the rajputs there are rajasthani and other types.
    Yes 99 percent Punjabi Rajputs are muslim and are present in Pakistan.

    In India we cover pretty the whole northern belt from Himachal to MP and Bihar to Gujarat.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    Most punjabi rajputs are muslim around 20million or so in Pakistan, I don't think there are many punjabi rajputs in India, the rajputs there are rajasthani and other types.
    They are there and always have been. Except that part of Punjab is now called Himachal pardesh.

  11. #251
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    'Sati' is different from 'jauhar', but both are Hindu innovations pre-dating Muslim warriors. Considering that @Mamoon is highly intellectual, here's an academic source on the subject :

    Internecine warfare among the Rajput kingdoms almost certainly supplied the first occasions for jauhar, well before the Muslim invasions with which the practice is popularly associated. Padmini, the queen of Chitor who has been immortalized by the balladeers of Rajasthan, is sometimes thought to be the best-commemorated example of sati; but actually her death was by jauhar, and that is quite a different thing.
    (...)
    The geopolitics of the northwest, whence a succession of invaders entered the subcontinent, made of Rajasthan a continual war zone, and its socially most respected community was therefore not the Brahmins but the kshatriya or Rajput castes, who controlled and defended the land. This history predates the coming of the Muslims by more than a millennium. Commemorative stones unearthed and dated in Rajasthan and Vijayanagara mark the deaths of both sexes. Their dates, which can be reliably determined, match perfectly the times and zones of war, a point to which Vidya Dehejia draws attention in this volume. Rajput martial values were a product of their own historical circumstances, although they were later exploited and molded into a supposed racial identity by colonial bureaucrats who had their own purposes for doing so.
    Veena Talwar Oldenburg, Comment: The Continuing Invention of the Sati Tradition in John Stratton Hawley (ed.), Sati, the Blessing and the Curse: The Burning of Wives in India, Oxford University Press (1994), p. 165

    By the way : was the Manu-Smriti modeled on 'creeping Sharia' as well ?

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    They are there and always have been. Except that part of Punjab is now called Himachal pardesh.
    Not whole Himachal was part of Punjab btw. Pahari Rajputs had their own History distinct from their Punjabi brethren who share common clans with the ones from Rajasthan.
    Thus the martial Ghorewahas of Punjab are actually a subclan of Kachhwahas(same as mine) who ruled over Jaipur. Similarly in Sindh as well there are many common clans as well for example Sodhas, Chauhans etc.

    Bhuttos if I'm not wrong are Rajputs from Rajasthan who are recent converts.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  13. #253
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    Stay on topic please.No more rubbish posts.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    'Sati' is different from 'jauhar', but both are Hindu innovations pre-dating Muslim warriors. Considering that @Mamoon is highly intellectual, here's an academic source on the subject :



    Veena Talwar Oldenburg, Comment: The Continuing Invention of the Sati Tradition in John Stratton Hawley (ed.), Sati, the Blessing and the Curse: The Burning of Wives in India, Oxford University Press (1994), p. 165

    By the way : was the Manu-Smriti modeled on 'creeping Sharia' as well ?
    While there might have been instances of Jauhar before Muslim invasions, it remains a fact that the intensity of Jauhars increased significantly with the start of Turkic invasions. And more often than not they did justify it in the name of Islam. While of course the reasons were political but they used the name of religion for their petty gains.

    Honestly it baffles me Everytime you people glorify these invaders. They killed both Hindus and Muslims alike.
    Babar for instance razed Lahore to the ground at the time of his conquest in India and before Akbar when Mughals were trying to get a foothold in India,
    chief Muslim power of Hindustan i.e Afghans/Pashtuns were BFF with Rajputs to drive the Invaders out.

    In the famous battle of Haldighati, Maharana Pratap's army was lead by Hakim Khan Sur, a Pashtun. Similar in the battle of Khanwa Rana Sanga's army had Pashtun contingents of Lodhi dynasty.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Many apologists ganging up against Mamoon because he mistook jauhar for sati. Jauhar was the practice of mass suicide to escape from the barbarian invaders, who seem to have many defenders because of shared faith. Shame on those who glorify the barbarians.
    Jauhar is just another form of honour killing in that it is linked to a woman's izzat, an outdated concept which today's societies could never accept. Women would have been expected to commit mass suicide through societal pressure so they wouldn't fall into the hands of the invaders, but death should be an individual choice, not one imposed by society.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Jauhar is just another form of honour killing in that it is linked to a woman's izzat, an outdated concept which today's societies could never accept. Women would have been expected to commit mass suicide through societal pressure so they wouldn't fall into the hands of the invaders, but death should be an individual choice, not one imposed by society.
    That's true but on the other hand men prepared themselves to die as well. It wasn't as if they forced their wives to committ suicide and enjoyed fruits of serving under the Invaders afterwards. Both died at the same time. So yeah it's a backward concept and rightly condemned in the modern times but can't really be compared to honor killings I'm afraid.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    That's true but on the other hand men prepared themselves to die as well. It wasn't as if they forced their wives to committ suicide and enjoyed fruits of serving under the Invaders afterwards. Both died at the same time. So yeah it's a backward concept and rightly condemned in the modern times but can't really be compared to honor killings I'm afraid.
    I think the comparison is apt, just a matter of degree. Honour killing is worse because all form of choice is taken away, but jauhar in itself would have been similar in that women would be expected to take their own lives whether they wished to or not. Definitely honour is involved, and the women end up dead, so the link is there.


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  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I think the comparison is apt, just a matter of degree. Honour killing is worse because all form of choice is taken away, but jauhar in itself would have been similar in that women would be expected to take their own lives whether they wished to or not. Definitely honour is involved, and the women end up dead, so the link is there.
    Yes the link is there but it at least made sense in that era. In those times being captured meant sex slaves in market or sent straight to King's harem. Now we may argue over whether it's sensible to die over some stupid honor but things that waited for those noble women(esp infidels) after being captured were far worse than death in those times.
    And I don't think coercion was involved. Brainwashing yes but not force.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    While there might have been instances of Jauhar before Muslim invasions, it remains a fact that the intensity of Jauhars increased significantly with the start of Turkic invasions. And more often than not they did justify it in the name of Islam. While of course the reasons were political but they used the name of religion for their petty gains.

    Honestly it baffles me Everytime you people glorify these invaders. They killed both Hindus and Muslims alike.
    Babar for instance razed Lahore to the ground at the time of his conquest in India and before Akbar when Mughals were trying to get a foothold in India,
    chief Muslim power of Hindustan i.e Afghans/Pashtuns were BFF with Rajputs to drive the Invaders out.

    In the famous battle of Haldighati, Maharana Pratap's army was lead by Hakim Khan Sur, a Pashtun. Similar in the battle of Khanwa Rana Sanga's army had Pashtun contingents of Lodhi dynasty.
    You probably have done a lot of research on all of this, but the point remains that neither 'sati' nor 'jauhar' were Islamic innovations introduced in the ahimsic Hindus. Hindus waged wars against each other (like everywhere), some were conquered (like everywhere) and the conquerors might have wanted to abuse the women (like everywhere). To try to pass of 'jauhar' as some new cultural device perfected against Islamic barbaric hordes - the only ones in history to kill and rape, obviously - is disingenuous.

    Lahore was nothing before the Ghaznavids, and if Babur 'razed it', it's his Mughal descendants which gave it its actual glory.

    Alliances between Muslims and non Muslims are not that rare (see Ian Almond's book on the subject), but the thing is that it will always bring humiliation to Muslims, the proof being guys like you who make all the 'BFFs' here co-responsible of the supposed crimes of their opponents, because they share a religion.

    There's no alliance between Islam and jahilyya.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    You probably have done a lot of research on all of this, but the point remains that neither 'sati' nor 'jauhar' were Islamic innovations introduced in the ahimsic Hindus. Hindus waged wars against each other (like everywhere), some were conquered (like everywhere) and the conquerors might have wanted to abuse the women (like everywhere). To try to pass of 'jauhar' as some new cultural device perfected against Islamic barbaric hordes - the only ones in history to kill and rape, obviously - is disingenuous.

    Lahore was nothing before the Ghaznavids, and if Babur 'razed it', it's his Mughal descendants which gave it its actual glory.

    Alliances between Muslims and non Muslims are not that rare (see Ian Almond's book on the subject), but the thing is that it will always bring humiliation to Muslims, the proof being guys like you who make all the 'BFFs' here co-responsible of the supposed crimes of their opponents, because they share a religion.

    There's no alliance between Islam and jahilyya.
    Bruh I would love to have a discourse with you on this topic but its hard to have a debate with someone who calls your religion Jahiliyat.
    Honestly what is wrong with you? You called an entire religion Jahiliyat because it doesn't comply with your already pre conceived notions.

    Disappointing. Extremely disappointing.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  21. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Yes the link is there but it at least made sense in that era. In those times being captured meant sex slaves in market or sent straight to King's harem. Now we may argue over whether it's sensible to die over some stupid honor but things that waited for those noble women(esp infidels) after being captured were far worse than death in those times.
    And I don't think coercion was involved. Brainwashing yes but not force.
    My initial response re jauhar was in response to PP champion CricketCartoons, he referred to the conquerors as barbarians, and that is true according to today's standards, so I have just applied the same standards to those who believed jauhar was an honourable practice. If jauhar made sense in that era, then bringing the lands of kufr under the light of Islam also probably made sense in that era. Are we looking from today's perspective or that era's?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    My initial response re jauhar was in response to PP champion CricketCartoons, he referred to the conquerors as barbarians, and that is true according to today's standards, so I have just applied the same standards to those who believed jauhar was an honourable practice. If jauhar made sense in that era, then bringing the lands of kufr under the light of Islam also probably made sense in that era. Are we looking from today's perspective or that era's?
    Makes sense. Agreed with the post.
    Can't pick and choose as per one's convenience.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  23. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    My initial response re jauhar was in response to PP champion CricketCartoons, he referred to the conquerors as barbarians, and that is true according to today's standards, so I have just applied the same standards to those who believed jauhar was an honourable practice. If jauhar made sense in that era, then bringing the lands of kufr under the light of Islam also probably made sense in that era. Are we looking from today's perspective or that era's?
    They were barbarians in any era. But quite telling that apologists want to focus on the victims and blame them as backwards instead of acknowledging the barbarism of the invaders they idolize.

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    Reminds me of the typical racist apologists in america, who state that most blacks are killed by blacks whenever the issue of white cops killing innocent blacks comes up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    They were barbarians in any era. But quite telling that apologists want to focus on the victims and blame them as backwards instead of acknowledging the barbarism of the invaders they idolize.
    The victims were backwards, invaders or not, the idea of expecting women to commit suicide to preserve their honour is thinking from a bygone era no matter how victim mentality apologists might want to dress it up. Today you have modern women paying good money to watch 50 shades of grey where women get subjugated for the pleasure of the male. Do you think they would prefer suicide?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The victims were backwards, invaders or not, the idea of expecting women to commit suicide to preserve their honour is thinking from a bygone era no matter how victim mentality apologists might want to dress it up. Today you have modern women paying good money to watch 50 shades of grey where women get subjugated for the pleasure of the male. Do you think they would prefer suicide?
    As I said, the apologist would rather focus on the victims instead of the barbarians. Deflect and blame the victim, classic traits of an apologist.

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    Disgusting. Should be kicked out from the country. Another graduate from RSS school like majority of hindus. So much hate. rabba hifazat karna.

  28. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    The victims were backwards, invaders or not, the idea of expecting women to commit suicide to preserve their honour is thinking from a bygone era no matter how victim mentality apologists might want to dress it up. Today you have modern women paying good money to watch 50 shades of grey where women get subjugated for the pleasure of the male. Do you think they would prefer suicide?
    Cant we talk about victims later on ? Why we always have to shift the goal to blame the victims first ?

  29. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    What is the timeline of the 4 rightly guided caliphs?

    Were they assasinated by muslims?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun

    Not all the info might be accurate but at least the basic facts are..

    I see this debate still rages on and now the focus is on the invaders of the subcontinent.


    People keep forgetting that its not just Muslim countries of old that used their power to invade other countries.. all powerful nations in history have done that till recent years and the formation of the UN and yet still US and Russia continue to invade other countries whenever they want...

    The history of Muslim conquests pale in comparison to those perpetrated by the Europeans including slavery and genocide, which is something Muslim rulers did not engage in, however, there is other questionable stuff they did.

    I can understand why some Hindus here still blame the Muslims for some of that. The oppressed always latch onto their oppression and grief. Blacks in the US, even after having won their freedom still hold lots of anger against white people. Muslims hold a lot of anger towards the Jews for Israel, which I believe is wrong because a lot of Jews are anti Zionist and you cant hold them all responsible for Palestine. The Hindus similarly will always feel angst and hatred st some level because one Muslims raided their land and two broke it up and took it from them.. Pakistanis feel the same way for East Pakistan and Kashmir..

    My point is, there are some issues in distant history and not so distant but we tend to hold on to them.. bottom line is nobody is perfect and most nations have wronged others for their interests if their strength allowed for it..

    Hopefully as mankind in general gets more civilized we see less and less of that, but it will probably not ever go away entirely.. dwelling on past ill feelings doesnt help anyone.. Germany and Italy are part of EU despite their strained history with the other European nations during WW1 and 2. And have cordial relations with France, Belgium, Poland, etc, nations they did wrong in the not too distant past.

    Hope our nations can learn from them and put aside history and differences for mutual benefit.

    Cheers!

  30. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauntless View Post
    Disgusting. Should be kicked out from the country. Another graduate from RSS school like majority of hindus. So much hate. rabba hifazat karna.
    Why does india have 2nd largest population ? If muslims are not safe. Hindus are not safe in pakistan so we saw decline in their population and many many apply citizenship of india since 1947 but this has never been case of india. Why indian muslims dnt apply that to pakistan if muslims are not safe ?

  31. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by akki View Post
    Why does india have 2nd largest population ? If muslims are not safe. Hindus are not safe in pakistan so we saw decline in their population and many many apply citizenship of india since 1947 but this has never been case of india. Why indian muslims dnt apply that to pakistan if muslims are not safe ?
    I honestly cant speak to all that but I do know quite a lot of Indians Muslims here in the US and about twenty years ago you rarely met one who would say I wish my ancestors had migrated to Pakistan

    These days its almost every single one of them is full of disgust at the direction your country is currently headed. One Indian Muslim Doctor I spoke with a couple of days was saying its not a big enough crime to murder a human being in India these days as it is to slaughter a cow.


    You are probably right if this was 1990s or 2000s. Its not the case anymore!

  32. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Not whole Himachal was part of Punjab btw. Pahari Rajputs had their own History distinct from their Punjabi brethren who share common clans with the ones from Rajasthan.
    Thus the martial Ghorewahas of Punjab are actually a subclan of Kachhwahas(same as mine) who ruled over Jaipur. Similarly in Sindh as well there are many common clans as well for example Sodhas, Chauhans etc.

    Bhuttos if I'm not wrong are Rajputs from Rajasthan who are recent converts.
    Ok understood. Our own lineage goes back to katoch of kangra.

    I believe the Bhutto clan is, but not sure.

  33. #273
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    The Mughal Empire by Crash Course History. It wasn't as dark as people are painting it all to be. No expert of subject but can smell stink when people post lies. And here in this thread, a lot of posters have hateful agendas... each to his own, I guess.


  34. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    As I said, the apologist would rather focus on the victims instead of the barbarians. Deflect and blame the victim, classic traits of an apologist.
    You need to acknowledge that women were the victims of jauhar to make your complaints valid. They were the victims twice over, not only being taken captive by the invaders, but also by their own Hindu society in being brainwashed into collective suicide to avoid it. Please don't settle for telling half a story if you want the story to be told.


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  35. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Ok understood. Our own lineage goes back to katoch of kangra.

    I believe the Bhutto clan is, but not sure.
    Katochs are ancient and when I say ancient that means really ancient.
    Many even claim Porus was from the same clan. They are said to be around in the North West since the Vedic period.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  36. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhenSultansBowled View Post
    The Mughal Empire by Crash Course History. It wasn't as dark as people are painting it all to be. No expert of subject but can smell stink when people post lies. And here in this thread, a lot of posters have hateful agendas... each to his own, I guess.

    Mughal period was India's golden age in terms of art and architecture after the golden period of Gupta empire.
    I plan to start a new thread on it soon.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  37. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    I honestly can’t speak to all that but I do know quite a lot of Indians Muslims here in the US and about twenty years ago you rarely met one who would say “ I wish my ancestors had migrated to Pakistan “

    These days it’s almost every single one of them is full of disgust at the direction your country is currently headed. One Indian Muslim Doctor I spoke with a couple of days was saying it’s not a big enough crime to murder a human being in India these days as it is to slaughter a cow.


    You are probably right if this was 1990s or 2000s. It’s not the case anymore!
    Bhai dnt talk about who you met or not met. Give me facts or figures ,then only and only come and talk.

  38. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    You need to acknowledge that women were the victims of jauhar to make your complaints valid. They were the victims twice over, not only being taken captive by the invaders, but also by their own Hindu society in being brainwashed into collective suicide to avoid it. Please don't settle for telling half a story if you want the story to be told.
    The same old trait of apologists. Lets discuss the reaction before we discuss the action. Let us discuss how the victims were at fault. But let us not talk about the elephant in the room.

  39. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    The same old trait of apologists. Lets discuss the reaction before we discuss the action. Let us discuss how the victims were at fault. But let us not talk about the elephant in the room.
    I'm guessing it might have been an elephant shape bar of soap in the Marriott bathroom.


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  40. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by akki View Post
    Bhai dnt talk about who you met or not met. Give me facts or figures ,then only and only come and talk.
    What sort of facts and figures will convince you? Its quite evident that nobody is able to convince anybody on Internet forums especially when the hatred runs so deep. This is usually a dick swinging contest isnt it. I have been watching Indian posters on this website ever since its inception. You guys always have some agenda and never want to concede a point. Sometimes I wonder if the hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis run so deep, why do you guys come here to begin with?

    And I also find it equally ridiculous that Pakistanis on their own forum have to end up defending themselves against the Indians. Its utterly pointless. Indian keyboard warriors outnumber us 5-1 it seems. So good luck with this wang comparing shindig. I would much rather contribute on the entertainment or sports related threads.

    Cheers!

  41. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie View Post
    What sort of facts and figures will convince you? Its quite evident that nobody is able to convince anybody on Internet forums especially when the hatred runs so deep. This is usually a dick swinging contest isnt it. I have been watching Indian posters on this website ever since its inception. You guys always have some agenda and never want to concede a point. Sometimes I wonder if the hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis run so deep, why do you guys come here to begin with?

    And I also find it equally ridiculous that Pakistanis on their own forum have to end up defending themselves against the Indians. Its utterly pointless. Indian keyboard warriors outnumber us 5-1 it seems. So good luck with this wang comparing shindig. I would much rather contribute on the entertainment or sports related threads.

    Cheers!
    Have asked various questions infinity times ,nobody was able to answer questions. Somebody said he would bring facts ,he never came back.
    First question
    If its easier to kill a guy a human being than a cow. How many muslims has been killed in india since last 5 years combined. Can you provide figures ?its not even in hundred and that too in a population of 125 crore. So you lied and you have a propaganda
    Question n.o 2 -
    Why does india have second largest muslim population in the world and you know what muslims are the only community which has highest increasing rate than any other community in india. If india hates muslims. How come rss or bajrang dal or bjp or anyone cud not control it.
    But its almost reciprocal in pakistan related to hindus. Never mind.they are kafirs so why anyone would even discuss them.leave it.
    Question n.o 3
    Why come no muslims of india including all your friends nevwr ever applied citizenship to pakistan after 1947,if hindus hate and all ,even with current bjp no one applied citizenship of pakistan which is islamic republic and wheras hindus and sikhs has applied many times citizenship of india.
    Question n.o 4
    If muslims are not safe so why rohingyas muslims come to take shelter of india when they were getting masscarred by budhists in mynamar and when india is already unsafe for muslims and they settled too in jammu area.
    Question n.o 5
    Why india is the only country where majority 80 percent hindus are against conversions whereas minority is in favors of conversions.whereas with rss and bjp ,it should have been reverse.
    Question n.o 6
    India has 2nd highest number of mosques. So with rss and bjp and all hindus hate,how come india has highest number of mosques even if we include around 50 muslims countries.
    These are just basic questions ,i will ask you main questions later on if you would answer this first. Lets see who have a propaganda.
    Last edited by akki; 16th June 2018 at 03:39.

  42. #282
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    All this talk about Muslim barbarism and forced conversions by Muslim invaders.

    Look at Indonesia, largest Muslim country where the majority of the population converted from Hinduism.

    No army set foot there.

  43. #283
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    It is disappointing, yet unsurprising to see people still revising history to hide the war crimes and atrocities of the Muslim invaders and plunderers. Some go one step ahead and defend the inhumane acts because they "saved us from hellfire".

    Becoming a Muslim and reciting kalimah does not save you from hellfire; only your good deeds will, and these good deeds are not limited to the realms of Islam only.

    The terrorists who massacred children in APS also recited kalimah and did it in the name of God. Or perhaps I am to believe that all the great non-Muslims in history, who have done great things for humanity and the world, are destined for the fire from which the plunderer Muhammad Bin Qasim saved me?

    Perhaps Muhammad Bin Qasim has saved from the fire where people like Mother Teresa, Thomas Morton - the man who developed general anaesthesia, without which our Mullahs and great champions of Islam would die during surgeries while screaming in pain, as well as people like Martin Luther King Jr. etc. (and the list goes on and on and on....)

    All these people are destined for the fire that Muhammad Bin Qasim saved the modern Muslims from, people who steal and pray bribe before entering the mosque to pray and cleaning their teeth with miswak and combing their beards with his wet wuzu fingers.

    It is never to late to change though. I am off to repent for my sins and accusations. I am really glad that Muslim invaders attacked my ancestors - killed them, looted them, raped them, and forcefully converted them.

    I am also going to thank them for the ingenious development of the Jizya system, i.e. if you are still not going to accept our religion after all that we have done to your people, you better pay us tax so that we don't behead you.
    Last edited by Arham_PakFan; Yesterday at 13:03.

  44. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Perhaps Muhammad Bin Qasim has saved from the fire where people like Mother Teresa, Thomas Morton - the man who developed general anaesthesia, without which our Mullahs and great champions of Islam would die during surgeries, as well as people like Martin Luther King Jr. etc. (and the list goes on and on and on....)
    Better not put Theresa on that list.

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    @Mamoon you're drowning in the modernist episteme. The prophets of Allah (swt) were not scientists or inventors. To build your soul is harder than to build pyramids, and that's why the communities who only do the latter disappear - communities which have aborted divine ordinances might invent a new solar system but they'll bound to whisper away in the echoes of history... and anyway, isn't China a good case ? They invent/discover gunpowder, the compass and paper - what 17th century English Francis Bacon called "the greatest inventions in history", to which Needham would add printing - and these very same inventions/discoveries have been used by Europeans against Chinese - look at the Opium wars, and which is interesting, because you bring up the issue of jizya : jizya was a tax which was applied on able male adults (so no females, no children, no crippled, etc) from recognized cults, which protected them and even gave them some benefits (for instance no military service, while Muslims had to protect them ; there's a famous case where the supposed "godfather of terrorism", Ibn Taymiyyah, asked for the return of prisoners from some crusader ; he gave the Muslims back, but not the dhimmis, Christian Arabs, and Ibn Taymiyyah said he won't go before getting them as well.)

    Why do I bring up the jizya while discussing the Opium wars ? Because the jizya was like any treaty a victor imposes on the defeated ; the only difference is that the jizya was a hundred times more merciful that the British came up with with the treaties they imposed after the Opium wars, basically, forcing a cultured people like China to drug its own masses (in around 1900, 10% of Chinese were into opium, 1/3 of them being addicts).

    In fact, ask yourself a good question : why the only European country conquered by Islam was its beacon of "civilization" for centuries - Spain/al Andalus - while the British vaporized ancient civilizations like India or China ? Aurangzeb made sure India represents 23% of the world's GDP, while the British left it at 3%, deindustrializing it and underdevelopping its human capital (see Dharampal ; worse than stealing a nation is to steal its population's abilities to remain relevant in a modern society).

    'Jizya' has been practiced by all, and still is : when the US put 'economic sanctions' on countries, isn't that and 'jizya' ? Doesn't the US want these countries to be 'humiliated' and accept its capitalist/(neo)liberal world order, with their companies sucking up the blood and soul of the countries' masses ?

    RM Eaton shows conversions to Islam had nothing to do with jizya. In fact, as yourself a simple question : how many peoples do you see change political ideologies for questions of taxes ? If it was the case, would you find 'socialists' in Europe ? Wouldn't they all be economically liberals ? So, forget a political ideology, no one changes a whole religion for a question of money, esp. when you see the resistance movements in the world, where shepherds and farmers are ready to go against tanks and jets in order to preserve their customs and traditions (Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc)

  46. #286
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    Good stuff Dubai. Throw every ill islamophobic out. This hatred need to be controlled all around the globe before it's too late. Should be the same for any religion as respecting other's religion is the only way moving forward.

    People get away with things like "Freedom of Expression" but this just isn't freedom of expression. You need to respect what's dear to others, and shouldn't make pathetic nonsensical comments on social media.

  47. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I am also going to thank them for the ingenious development of the Jizya system, i.e. if you are still not going to accept our religion after all that we have done to your people, you better pay us tax so that we don't behead you.
    You seem quite ignorant about the topic. I would suggest you read up first on the invention of Jizya before posting ridiculous islamophobic comments that we often read on social media.

    Jizya was simply a small tax amount that was levied on non-Muslims for the government to look after them and cover their safety measure expenses. Non-Muslims under Muslim empire didn't send their men to wars either and majority of Muslims used to pay zakkat/saddaqa to the city.

    Defending anything related to India seems to be running deep in you, don't lose sanity over defending them all the time. Not that we are anti-Indian, but you have never been seen to voice against their government's or historical Rajas atrocities or regular anti-Pakistani biases from their posters on PP.

  48. #288
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    First time in a long time I’ve read multiple pages of a thread. Very interesting historic posts.

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    Indian people hardly ever attack the Brits who also ruled the entire subcontinent for 200 years. I never see Hindu Indian's tell the world how Christian's tormented them for such a long period because they want excellent relations with the west. Here you can clearly see their hypocrisy again where they say Muslim rule was bad but British rule not that bad! These Hindu Indian's would crawl on their knee's to live and work in Muslim and Christian countries. It is only the Muslim's they have a problem with even though Islam's far greater contribution to Christianity in India and it's culture can be seen in their entire country.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  50. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by someone21 View Post
    Wow, so a lot of people should go out of India according to your logic. That's stupid and you ought to apologize...
    Indian Muslim's say hello! That is exactly what majority community in India often tells it's Muslim's that you were all forced to convert to Islam and are really Hindu's. They are often generalised and told to leave and "go to Pakistan". Take some in return. More chance of you getting blood out of a stone then an apology from a Pakistani like me. I am not an Indian Muslim's who will tell you what you want to hear.


    PP's own self proclaimed sharpshooter and defender of Islam and Pakistan.

  51. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Indian people hardly ever attack the Brits who also ruled the entire subcontinent for 200 years. I never see Hindu Indian's tell the world how Christian's tormented them for such a long period because they want excellent relations with the west. Here you can clearly see their hypocrisy again where they say Muslim rule was bad but British rule not that bad! These Hindu Indian's would crawl on their knee's to live and work in Muslim and Christian countries. It is only the Muslim's they have a problem with even though Islam's far greater contribution to Christianity in India and it's culture can be seen in their entire country.
    Trust me you have no idea. Those who hate, hate Christians equally. They have their fancy terminologies for them.

  52. #292
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    Pakistan isn't any better either, @PakLFC. 30 temples in Pakistan were destroyed in one single day after Babri incident. Something that had nothing to do with their country. What was the fault of Pakistani Hindus who had to flee their country after this? Some Pakistani migrants in UAE attacked Hindus there as well and were rightly deported. That's insane. A national shame.

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