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  1. #1
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    Buddha of Swat, dynamited by Taliban in 2007, stands restored

    MINGORA: The Buddha of Swat, carved on a cliff in the seventh century, was dynamited by the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan in 2007. Now it has been restored, a powerful symbol of tolerance in the traumatised valley.

    The figure, depicted in a lotus position at the base of a granite cliff in Swat, was severely damaged by the TTP in an echo of the Afghan Taliban's complete destruction of its more imposing counterparts at Bamiyan in 2001.

    For some, it was a wanton act of vandalism that struck at the heart of the area's unique history and identity.

    It felt "like they killed my father", says Parvesh Shaheen, a 79-year-old expert on Buddhism in Swat. "They attack... my culture, my history."

    The Buddha sits in Jahanabad, the epicentre of Swat's Buddhist heritage, a beautiful valley in the foothills of the Himalayas.

    There the Italian government has been helping to preserve hundreds of archaeological sites, working with local authorities who hope to turn it into a place of pilgrimage once more and pull in sorely needed tourist dollars.

    A decade ago, the militants climbed the six-metre (20-foot) effigy to lay the explosives, but only part of them were triggered, demolishing the top of the Buddha's face. Another, smaller fresco nearby was torn to pieces.

    For Shaheen, the statue is "a symbol of peace, symbol of love, symbol of brotherhood".

    "We don't hate anybody, any religion what is this nonsense to hate somebody?" he says.

    But other Swatis, less familiar with history and in 2007 not yet traumatised by the full brutality of the Taliban, applauded the attack and took up the argument that sculpture was 'anti-Islamic'.

    Religious tourism

    Rehabilitation of the site has not been easy, says Luca Maria Olivieri, an Italian archaeologist who oversaw the restoration of the Buddha.

    Carried out in phases, it began in 2012 with the application of a coating to protect the damaged part of the sculpture.

    The reconstruction of the face itself was first prepared virtually in the laboratory, in 3D, using laser surveys and old photos.

    The last phase, the actual restoration, ended in 2016. Olivieri says the reconstruction is not identical, but that is deliberate, as "the idea of damage should remain visible".

    The Italian archaeological mission in Swat, which he directs, has been there since 1955 though it was briefly forced from the valley during Taliban rule.

    It manages other excavation sites and supervised the restoration of the archaeological museum in Mingora, the main city of Swat, damaged in an attack in 2008.

    The Italian government has invested 2.5 million euros ($2.9 million) in five years for the preservation of Swat's cultural heritage, striving to involve the local population as much as possible.

    Now authorities are counting on the Buddha's recovered smile and iconic status to boost religious tourism from places such as China and Thailand.

    Years after the Taliban were ousted, the valley is largely rejuvenated, though at times security is still tense, with an attack martyring 11 soldiers in February this year.

    Some people in Swat also see the Buddha as a tool for promoting religious tolerance.

    Fazal Khaliq, a journalist and author living in Mingora, thinks the threat to cultural heritage has been "minimised" through education and the use of social networks to spread a "soft, good" image.

    However, "the majority of people who are not young, educated they still do not understand" its importance, he admits.

    https://www.geo.tv/latest/202939-bud...tands-restored

  2. #2
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    You can demolish monuments but you can not demolish faith.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    You can demolish monuments but you can not demolish faith.
    They can. Buddhism has been completely wiped out from Pakistan, a centre of rich buddhist culture during ancient and early medieval era.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    They can. Buddhism has been completely wiped out from Pakistan, a centre of rich buddhist culture during ancient and early medieval era.
    Pakistan and Afghanistan too were Buddhist, and after it was overthrown we had a thousand years and continuing of non-stop wars and massacres.
    Last edited by Napa; 12th July 2018 at 07:46.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Pakistan and Afghanistan too were Buddhist, and after it was overthrown we had a thousand years and continuing of non-stop wars and massacres.
    Are you claiming there were no wars and massacres when Buddhism thrived in Indian Subcontinent?


    Tazimi Sirdar

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Are you claiming there were no wars and massacres when Buddhism thrived in Indian Subcontinent?
    There were wars and massacres before. Whether there was a difference in frequency and intensity is the question.

    At least the message of Buddha was peace and detachment from the real world. I would think that those following his philosophy would be less inclined to wars and massacres.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    There were wars and massacres before. Whether there was a difference in frequency and intensity is the question.

    At least the message of Buddha was peace and detachment from the real world. I would think that those following his philosophy would be less inclined to wars and massacres.
    Clearly you are thinking wrong.
    When it comes to imperialistic ambitions, religion and philosophies of Invaders take a backseat.
    There was no difference in intensity or frequency. Barbarity though is a completely different matter.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Clearly you are thinking wrong.
    When it comes to imperialistic ambitions, religion and philosophies of Invaders take a backseat.
    There was no difference in intensity or frequency. Barbarity though is a completely different matter.
    Religious war was unheard of in Pre Islamic India.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Religious war was unheard of in Pre Islamic India.
    My response was about the occurrences of wars and battles regardless the religion of the ruler.
    Didn't claim there were wars fought based on religious fervor.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Are you claiming there were no wars and massacres when Buddhism thrived in Indian Subcontinent?
    Yes, just like there have been none in China, India, Burma and Sri Lanka in that time

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    I've never understood that those nearest and dearest to the Prophet (pbuh) ruled lands in which there were such monuments and elaborate tombs, and never sought to go and destroy them.

    And yet today's plebs go around destroying artefacts of history?

    Do they not remember that in the Qur'an Allah points us towards signs of previous civilisations to understand the concept that only he is the ever lasting and ultimate judge?

    These guys are an insult to the Islamic message. Jahil.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Clearly you are thinking wrong.
    When it comes to imperialistic ambitions, religion and philosophies of Invaders take a backseat.
    There was no difference in intensity or frequency. Barbarity though is a completely different matter.
    1. Buddhism was spread to outside India by missionaries sent out by Ashoka rather than by wars of conquest.

    2. Buddha did not lead his tribe to wars of conquest like Mohammad did, rather he preached and those who heard him had the choice of listening to him or not.

    3. There is no concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism, with no belief that infidels are going to eternal damnation.

    4. While all nations experience their bouts of violence, the remaining Buddhist nations Tibet, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka have been more peaceful than the average Muslim nation.

  13. #13
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    But....but...I thought Pakistan authorities being Islamic could only persecute other faiths?


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    1. Buddhism was spread to outside India by missionaries sent out by Ashoka rather than by wars of conquest.

    2. Buddha did not lead his tribe to wars of conquest like Mohammad did, rather he preached and those who heard him had the choice of listening to him or not.

    3. There is no concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism, with no belief that infidels are going to eternal damnation.

    4. While all nations experience their bouts of violence, the remaining Buddhist nations Tibet, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka have been more peaceful than the average Muslim nation.
    1) I think a suspected 18,000 Jains might have something to say about this. As will the Sri Lankan Tamil King Elama.
    2) Don't know enough about the history of Buddha himself or whether he ever had the choice between fight or flight
    3) No, but if you misbehave you can come back as a dog. Or if you're born disabled, you deserve it cos you were once a scumbag. Beleifs such as this cost Glenn Hoddle his job.
    4) Tibet has been relatively peaceful? Cambodia?? Ever heard of the Khmer Rouge?? Thailand?? Sri Lanka? Come on

  15. #15
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    Always funny to see Hindus become pro Buddhists for the sake of bashing Islam. How has been Buddhism considered by mainstream Hinduism ? Astika or nastika ? Isn't one of your greatest minds of the last century, DD Kosambi, who basically demonstrated that Buddhism died of its own ? Being a Marxist historian, he has shown that the rise of Buddhism was an economic imperative - the rise of international trade asked for a "missionary" religion, Hinduism being too concentrated into the SC - while its demise too, it's asceticism was unable to carry in a post-imperial order (the end of classical India with the Gupta's ; basically Buddhism is an "imperial religion" in the sense that you need finances for its dozen of monasteries, otherwise without it, no monks - sangha - so no more Buddhism among the masses). If you bother reading Johan Elverskog's Buddhism and Islam on the Silk Road he touches widely upon this, and also shows how "violent" Buddhism has been in Tibet (and Mongolia).

    And how Cambodia with Pol Pot and his Red Khmers who killed off 25% of its population, or Sri Lanka during the civil war have been more "peaceful" than the "average Muslim nation" ? Ironically, as per Philip Short in his biography, Pol Pot's communism was very Buddhic. And which Muslim nation ? There are +50, and many of them are cursed by their natural resources thanks to the West, which creates a volatile geopolitical situation.

    As for the wars of the prophet (s), to say that because he was a warlord it means that the societies are into a perpetual state of internal warfare is like saying that having an army means to be in a perennial state of warfare. Again read Richard Gabriel, one of Canada's leading military historians, who in his God's Generals talks of Islam and Buddhism, and how the latter can't be explained without the warrior ethics of the late Vedic society/Kshatriyas.

    Literally every major religion has a warrior figure which will come at the end to kill off peoples : Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism, the Kalki-Avatar in Hinduism (who has been recycled as the king of Shambhala in Tibetan Buddhism), triumphant Jesus for Christianity (remember St Paul in his epistles saying how he'll take revenge on all who didn't accept him, basically billions), etc

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    1. Buddhism was spread to outside India by missionaries sent out by Ashoka rather than by wars of conquest.

    2. Buddha did not lead his tribe to wars of conquest like Mohammad did, rather he preached and those who heard him had the choice of listening to him or not.

    3. There is no concept of heaven and hell in Buddhism, with no belief that infidels are going to eternal damnation.

    4. While all nations experience their bouts of violence, the remaining Buddhist nations Tibet, Cambodia, Thailand, Sri Lanka have been more peaceful than the average Muslim nation.
    Err where did I claim that Buddhism was spread through sword?
    My original post was in response to your comment that intensity and frequency of massacres in pre Islamic period was comparatively lower which was factually incorrect.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Always funny to see Hindus become pro Buddhists for the sake of bashing Islam. How has been Buddhism considered by mainstream Hinduism ? Astika or nastika ? Isn't one of your greatest minds of the last century, DD Kosambi, who basically demonstrated that Buddhism died of its own ? Being a Marxist historian, he has shown that the rise of Buddhism was an economic imperative - the rise of international trade asked for a "missionary" religion, Hinduism being too concentrated into the SC - while its demise too, it's asceticism was unable to carry in a post-imperial order (the end of classical India with the Gupta's ; basically Buddhism is an "imperial religion" in the sense that you need finances for its dozen of monasteries, otherwise without it, no monks - sangha - so no more Buddhism among the masses). If you bother reading Johan Elverskog's Buddhism and Islam on the Silk Road he touches widely upon this, and also shows how "violent" Buddhism has been in Tibet (and Mongolia).

    And how Cambodia with Pol Pot and his Red Khmers who killed off 25% of its population, or Sri Lanka during the civil war have been more "peaceful" than the "average Muslim nation" ? Ironically, as per Philip Short in his biography, Pol Pot's communism was very Buddhic. And which Muslim nation ? There are +50, and many of them are cursed by their natural resources thanks to the West, which creates a volatile geopolitical situation.

    As for the wars of the prophet (s), to say that because he was a warlord it means that the societies are into a perpetual state of internal warfare is like saying that having an army means to be in a perennial state of warfare. Again read Richard Gabriel, one of Canada's leading military historians, who in his God's Generals talks of Islam and Buddhism, and how the latter can't be explained without the warrior ethics of the late Vedic society/Kshatriyas.

    Literally every major religion has a warrior figure which will come at the end to kill off peoples : Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism, the Kalki-Avatar in Hinduism (who has been recycled as the king of Shambhala in Tibetan Buddhism), triumphant Jesus for Christianity (remember St Paul in his epistles saying how he'll take revenge on all who didn't accept him, basically billions), etc
    Always funny to see bits and pieces historians of PP passing off incorrect information as gospel truths as if the rest can't see through their lies.

    Buddhism is considered as Nastika philosophy same way as Jainism, Lokayata and Ajivikas are. Both Aastika and Nastika philosophies have been part of Mainstream Sanatana Dharma since the ancient times and anyone who deny that is either woefully ignorant or trolling.
    Both Buddhism and Sanatana Dharma coexisted peacefully for centuries.

    And Kosambi as our greatest mind
    Sure bud. Yes there were several reasons behind demise of Buddhism from subcontinent but it remains a fact that Buddhism from modern day Pakistan faced most the brunt of initial Islamic incursions and eventually got wiped out because of the same similarly how it happened in the Central Asia.
    Not sure if you have heard of Bakhtiyar Khilji but he made sure that Nalanda which was considered as one of the greatest Universities of it's time was razed to ground and it's public library which held valuable ancient manuscripts burnt for the whole town to see.

    Instead of throwing in names of random white authors it's time you actually read some decent literature on Indian history which is far different from what your ilk has been lead to believe through brainwashing since childhood.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Always funny to see bits and pieces historians of PP passing off incorrect information as gospel truths as if the rest can't see through their lies.

    Buddhism is considered as Nastika philosophy same way as Jainism, Lokayata and Ajivikas are. Both Aastika and Nastika philosophies have been part of Mainstream Sanatana Dharma since the ancient times and anyone who deny that is either woefully ignorant or trolling.
    Both Buddhism and Sanatana Dharma coexisted peacefully for centuries.

    And Kosambi as our greatest mind
    Sure bud. Yes there were several reasons behind demise of Buddhism from subcontinent but it remains a fact that Buddhism from modern day Pakistan faced most the brunt of initial Islamic incursions and eventually got wiped out because of the same similarly how it happened in the Central Asia.
    Not sure if you have heard of Bakhtiyar Khilji but he made sure that Nalanda which was considered as one of the greatest Universities of it's time was razed to ground and it's public library which held valuable ancient manuscripts burnt for the whole town to see.

    Instead of throwing in names of random white authors it's time you actually read some decent literature on Indian history which is far different from what your ilk has been lead to believe through brainwashing since childhood.
    Buddhism has always been fought off because it represented a direct confrontation to the authority of the Vedas/Brahmins, that's why it has been termed as 'astika'. Buddhism was also found in Southern India (from where the greatest Buddhist thinker, Nagarjuna, hails from), yet it has disappeared until Ambdekar mass conversions. It's well attested in history.

    And I said Kosambi was one of the greatest minds, you just had to look at his CV. He was a polymath qualified in many fields. But perhaps you're better ?

    Everything else you talk about has been touched upon by Johan Elverskog in the book mentioned, that's from the intro., but you have all rights to remain willfully ignorant, seems to be a passion for some.

    The Buddhist monastery of Nalanda was founded in north-east India in the early fifth century. Over time it became the premier institution of higher learning in Asia and, much like leading universities today, Nalanda had a world-renowned faculty working on the cutting edge of the theoretical sciences and a student body drawn from across the Buddhist world. This prestige also brought with it ample gifts from the rich and powerful. Not only had local rulers in north-east India bequeathed entire villages to help finance the running of Nalanda, but the king of Sumatra had also offered villages for the monastery’s endowment, and a special fund had been created to support students specifically from China. At its peak Nalanda had an extensive faculty teaching a diverse student body of about three thousand on a beautiful campus composed of numerous cloisters with lofty spires that “ resembled the snowy peaks of Mount Sumeru.” Then suddenly the serenity of this Buddhist institution was shattered. In the fall of 1202, Muslim soldiers on horses rode in and hacked down teachers and students where they stood. The once majestic buildings were left in ruins. The savagery was so great it signaled the end of the Dharma in India.

    This powerful story has been told countless times. Today it is ubiquitous, being found in everything from scholarly monographs to travel brochures. Indeed, by its sheer pervasiveness, this one episode has in many ways come to encapsulate and symbolize the entire thirteen-hundred-year history of Buddhist-Muslim interaction. And on account of this, whenever the topic of Buddhism and Islam is ever mentioned it almost invariably revolves around the Muslim destruction of the Dharma.

    This is problematic for many reasons, not the least being that the story of Nalanda is not true. For example, not only did local Buddhist rulers make deals with the new Muslim overlords and thus stay in power, but Nalanda also continued as a functioning institution of Buddhist education well into the thirteenth century. One Indian master, for example, was trained and ordained at Nalanda before he traveled to the court of Khubilai Khan. We also know that Chinese monks continued to travel to India and obtain Buddhist texts in the late fourteenth century. Indeed, contrary to the standard idea promoted by the above story that Nalanda’s destruction signaled the death of Buddhism, the fact is that the Dharma survived in India at least until the seventeenth century. Or, in other words, Buddhists and Muslims lived together on the Asian subcontinent for almost a thousand years.

    Why is this not better known? There are numerous possible explanations for this and they range from Buddhist prophecies of decline to the problems of contemporary scholarship. However, rather than addressing such concerns, one can begin simply with the power of story. As noted above, the destruction of Nalanda offers us a clear-cut narrative with good guys and bad. It avoids entirely the complex shades of gray that most often color the messy fabric of history. And this is certainly what the Buddhist historians who cobbled together this story wanted to do as they tried to make sense of the Dharma’s demise in India. Indeed, rather than exploring the complex economic, environmental, political, and religious history of India, or simply the Buddhist tradition’s own failings, it was clearly much easier to simply blame the Muslims.

    In this regard the Buddhists established a precedent that was to subsequently drive South Asian history. The British, for example, used the same claims of Muslim barbarity and misrule in order to justify the introduction of their supposedly more humane and rational form of colonial rule. In turn, while Indian nationalists questioned the moral righteousness and glory of the British Raj, they nevertheless continued with the historical model of blaming the Muslims. The humiliating imposition of colonial rule was thus not the result of Indian weakness per se, but rather the fault of the effeminate and voluptuous Mughals. And this view is readily perpetuated in the rhetoric of today’s Hindu nationalists who want to re-create some imagined Hindu utopia by eradicating all traces of Islam in India, by violence if necessary.

    This pervasive anti-Muslim view is, of course, not unique to medieval Buddhist and contemporary Hindu historiography. It has also been a part of the Jewish and Christian tradition ever since Muhammad received God’s final revelation through the angel Gabriel in the early seventh century. Many have also argued that the modern western construction of itself as the paragon of righteousness was often done at the expense of Islam. Yet even though such “orientalism” has been roundly critiqued by decades of scholarship, these earlier views persist. Indeed, the valiant attempt of contemporary scholars and museum curators to overturn these stereotypes by means of books and lavish museum exhibits highlighting Muslim tolerance and periods of Islamic exchange with Christian Europe has not really been able to diminish our “ orientalist fear.” Of course, today’s contemporary geopolitical environment may not be conducive to such a rvaluation no matter how necessary it may actually be. Thus if we take into consideration all of these disparate strands it is perhaps not at all surprising that the story of Nalanda and the attendant one of Islam destroying Buddhism are so readily accepted. To many they just make sense. Moreover, they fit our preconceptions about these two religious traditions. While Buddhism is a good, rational, post-Enlightenment philosophy, Islam is an inherently violent and irrational religion.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Buddhism has always been fought off because it represented a direct confrontation to the authority of the Vedas/Brahmins, that's why it has been termed as 'astika'. Buddhism was also found in Southern India (from where the greatest Buddhist thinker, Nagarjuna, hails from), yet it has disappeared until Ambdekar mass conversions. It's well attested in history.

    And I said Kosambi was one of the greatest minds, you just had to look at his CV. He was a polymath qualified in many fields. But perhaps you're better ?

    Everything else you talk about has been touched upon by Johan Elverskog in the book mentioned, that's from the intro., but you have all rights to remain willfully ignorant, seems to be a passion for some.
    Once again you are wrong. Hinduism isn't like any monolithic religion such as Islam/Judaism where there are clear rules spelt out for it's adherents to follow.
    Buddhism presented a stiff competition to Brahmins ONLY for state patronage.
    For an average Joe this confrontation didn't matter much as evidenced by worshipping of Yaksha and Yakshini across all the major religions of India.
    In fact both Hinduism and Buddhism influenced each other heavily which can be seen by rise of Mahayana branch and later on Vajrayana Buddhism ( which was basically softcore Tantra).

    Kosambi is a renowned historian but thats all. To call him the greatest mind is going over the top.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Once again you are wrong. Hinduism isn't like any monolithic religion such as Islam/Judaism where there are clear rules spelt out for it's adherents to follow.
    Buddhism presented a stiff competition to Brahmins ONLY for state patronage.
    For an average Joe this confrontation didn't matter much as evidenced by worshipping of Yaksha and Yakshini across all the major religions of India.
    In fact both Hinduism and Buddhism influenced each other heavily which can be seen by rise of Mahayana branch and later on Vajrayana Buddhism ( which was basically softcore Tantra).

    Kosambi is a renowned historian but thats all. To call him the greatest mind is going over the top.
    So why did Buddhism disappear from Southern India ? Why is Christianity disappearing from Europe ? Could you begin to conceptualize that religions may die off without Islamic sword ?

    Since when the "average Joe" has matter in the pre-modern/pre-democratic world ?

    And Tantrism is pre-Hinduism, that's also widely accepted. The man who introduced Tantric/Vajrayana Buddhism into Tibet was an ancient Pakistani btw, Padmasambhava.

    Again, I called Kosambi one of the greatest minds (not the greatest mind) produced by India in the last century, and there seems to be a consensus considering the fields he was specialized in. You have all rights to disagree, but his historiography about the decay of Buddhism seems more plausible than yours and other Hindutvadis' perpetual insecurity with Islam.

    I personally don't have a problem, but don't expect on an Islamic dominated forum peoples to remain still while you present such a distorted and ideological view of history.

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    ok so to summarise according to our Hindu indian posters :

    Islam evil warlike religion that committed massacres everywhere and wiped out everyone it cam einto contact with
    Buddhism = peaceful calm cool religion of ultimate nirvana and peace and joy and was horribly wiped out by the evil warlike evil Muslims and their evil warlike war mongering religion that rapes murders and kills everyone

    Hinduism = egalitarian, peaceful, intelligent, coherent and never ever warlike religion that is under threat from the evil warlike warmongering rapist Muslims..

    In short Muslims all evil everyone else doodh main dholay hoay..

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    So why did Buddhism disappear from Southern India ? Why is Christianity disappearing from Europe ? Could you begin to conceptualize that religions may die off without Islamic sword ?

    Since when the "average Joe" has matter in the pre-modern/pre-democratic world ?

    And Tantrism is pre-Hinduism, that's also widely accepted. The man who introduced Tantric/Vajrayana Buddhism into Tibet was an ancient Pakistani btw, Padmasambhava.

    Again, I called Kosambi one of the greatest minds (not the greatest mind) produced by India in the last century, and there seems to be a consensus considering the fields he was specialized in. You have all rights to disagree, but his historiography about the decay of Buddhism seems more plausible than yours and other Hindutvadis' perpetual insecurity with Islam.

    I personally don't have a problem, but don't expect on an Islamic dominated forum peoples to remain still while you present such a distorted and ideological view of history.
    Buddhism didn't completely disappear from the Subcontinent (it did from the modern day Pakistan however due the reasons mentioned earlier) but it did decline and was relegated to the geographical, political and cultural margins.

    Various factors have been suggested for this- the failure of Buddhism to maintain a distinct identity in relation to the Hindu cults, the degeneration brought in by increasing Tantric influences, general careless attitude of Monks because of the growing riches and widespread corruption in the Sangha which led to it becoming more and more ritualistic in sharp contrast to earlier much simpler form of Dharma as espoused by Siddhartha.

    The Turkish invasions led to destruction of several major monastic centres which formed easily identifiable targets.
    The newer forms of Buddhism had to grapple with the collapse of old sources of support and patronage and had to forge new social links.

    You mentioned South India. One of the major reasons behind disappearance of Buddhism from South was the emergence of Bhakti cults of Nayanars and Alwars which emphasised on love between the deity and devotee as analogous to that between lover and beloved. These Bhakti saints whose main desciples were people from lower castes and women sharply criticized both Brahminism and Buddhism.
    This movement spread throughout the peninsula and gave a sharp blow to the prestige of Buddhism which was already reeling under pressure from attacks of Turks in North India.

    And no Tantrism isn't pre Hinduism. It came to prominence after the collapse of Gupta empire in the Eastern Indian (Bengal) among people of lower castes and class.

    Again no one cares about Kosambi in India anymore. His views might have been relavant when Marxism was still a thing in India but not anymore.


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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    ok so to summarise according to our Hindu indian posters :

    Islam evil warlike religion that committed massacres everywhere and wiped out everyone it cam einto contact with
    Buddhism = peaceful calm cool religion of ultimate nirvana and peace and joy and was horribly wiped out by the evil warlike evil Muslims and their evil warlike war mongering religion that rapes murders and kills everyone

    Hinduism = egalitarian, peaceful, intelligent, coherent and never ever warlike religion that is under threat from the evil warlike warmongering rapist Muslims..

    In short Muslims all evil everyone else doodh main dholay hoay..
    Nobody has claimed that. Stop getting your dhoti in twist for no apparent reason.
    Hinduism like any other religion is a compound of magic and superstition.
    Yahan koi doodh ka dhula nahin hai.


    Tazimi Sirdar

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Buddhism didn't completely disappear from the Subcontinent (it did from the modern day Pakistan however due the reasons mentioned earlier) but it did decline and was relegated to the geographical, political and cultural margins.

    Various factors have been suggested for this- the failure of Buddhism to maintain a distinct identity in relation to the Hindu cults, the degeneration brought in by increasing Tantric influences, general careless attitude of Monks because of the growing riches and widespread corruption in the Sangha which led to it becoming more and more ritualistic in sharp contrast to earlier much simpler form of Dharma as espoused by Siddhartha.

    The Turkish invasions led to destruction of several major monastic centres which formed easily identifiable targets.
    The newer forms of Buddhism had to grapple with the collapse of old sources of support and patronage and had to forge new social links.

    You mentioned South India. One of the major reasons behind disappearance of Buddhism from South was the emergence of Bhakti cults of Nayanars and Alwars which emphasised on love between the deity and devotee as analogous to that between lover and beloved. These Bhakti saints whose main desciples were people from lower castes and women sharply criticized both Brahminism and Buddhism.
    This movement spread throughout the peninsula and gave a sharp blow to the prestige of Buddhism which was already reeling under pressure from attacks of Turks in North India.
    Always intriguing to see peoples resume Buddhism's death in the north as "Islam's sword" - despite the diverging studies by objective specialists - while they become historians, anthropologists and sociologists when it comes to explain its demise in southern India.

    Basically Bhakti saints converted everyone, so that's the reason why in modern India there isn't a single Buddhist to be found pre-Ambedkar (I'm not talking of the Himalayan region or modern Bangladesh), what a cute little story, I mean why even bother enforcing yourself upon Buddhists when you could have just talked of luv ?

    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    And no Tantrism isn't pre Hinduism. It came to prominence after the collapse of Gupta empire in the Eastern Indian (Bengal) among people of lower castes and class.
    The great historian of religions Mircea Eliade called Tantrism the "pre Aryan" mask of India, and a contemporary French scholar, Andr Padoux, says the same : that's also why it's very "matriarchal", "magic", etc

    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Again no one cares about Kosambi in India anymore. His views might have been relavant when Marxism was still a thing in India but not anymore.
    You might not care, but he still remains a respected intellectual, and when you can explain the death of Buddhism in southern India because of Bhakti saints, I don't know why his own 100s of pages on the subject can't be appreciated for their own value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Always intriguing to see peoples resume Buddhism's death in the north as "Islam's sword" - despite the diverging studies by objective specialists - while they become historians, anthropologists and sociologists when it comes to explain its demise in southern India.

    Basically Bhakti saints converted everyone, so that's the reason why in modern India there isn't a single Buddhist to be found pre-Ambedkar (I'm not talking of the Himalayan region or modern Bangladesh), what a cute little story, I mean why even bother enforcing yourself upon Buddhists when you could have just talked of luv ?



    The great historian of religions Mircea Eliade called Tantrism the "pre Aryan" mask of India, and a contemporary French scholar, Andr Padoux, says the same : that's also why it's very "matriarchal", "magic", etc



    You might not care, but he still remains a respected intellectual, and when you can explain the death of Buddhism in southern India because of Bhakti saints, I don't know why his own 100s of pages on the subject can't be appreciated for their own value.
    Always hilarious to see apologists trying to downplay the brutality and savagery of Islamic barbarians which led to destruction of native culture not only in Indian Subcontinent but also in pretty much whole Central and Western Asia.

    Before Turkic invasions and inspite of it's general decline as a whole(more in south), Buddhism was thriving in Northern India as noted by presence of flourishing Universities of Nalanda, Tilodaka and Bodh Gaya.

    Heck Buddhist monasteries at Sanchi and Amravati continued to flourish till the 12th-13th century (your argument of Bhakti Saints dismantling Buddhism falls flat here). The Chachnama refers to Buddhism prospering in Sindh. In Kashmir the Jayendra Monastery at Srinagar and Raja Monastery at Parihaspura were in decline by the 11th century but the Ratnagupta monastery and Ratnarashmi monastery at Anupampura were burgeoning by 12th century.

    The Palas of Bengal and Bihar were patrons of Buddhism. There were active interaction between them and Tibetan Monks. In Odhisa remains of early medieval Buddhist stupas and Viharas have been found at Lalitagiri and Ratnagiri.

    I wonder what suddenly transpired which led to a sudden downfall of Buddhism in North India (even though like I already stated it was thriving well here till 12th century). Oh yeah it must have been those evil Bhakti Saints who by their vigorous conversions and wickedness forced Buddhists to become a miniscule minority in India while the savages from Central Asia who recently arrived in India paid them no heed and continued to peacefully rule the region.

    Sounds great man. I'm totally convinced.


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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post

    The great historian of religions Mircea Eliade called Tantrism the "pre Aryan" mask of India, and a contemporary French scholar, Andr Padoux, says the same : that's also why it's very "matriarchal", "magic".
    Lol the evidence for the worship of Tantric deities goes back to 5th century CE ( so much for pre Aryan mask of India ) and some of its early scriptures were composed during this period as well.
    The early medieval period saw further development of Tantric cult and practices. You have been caught lying once again. LMAO I'm enjoying it.Keep those 'facts' of yours coming.


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    Buddham Sharanam Gachami!

    One of the greatest persons ever to come out of Subcontinent. His influence has left a great mark in the entire Asia. Western world is slowly realizing his teachings. I have met many many Buddhists in USA. Most of them recent converts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    ok so to summarise according to our Hindu indian posters :

    Islam evil warlike religion that committed massacres everywhere and wiped out everyone it cam einto contact with
    Buddhism = peaceful calm cool religion of ultimate nirvana and peace and joy and was horribly wiped out by the evil warlike evil Muslims and their evil warlike war mongering religion that rapes murders and kills everyone

    Hinduism = egalitarian, peaceful, intelligent, coherent and never ever warlike religion that is under threat from the evil warlike warmongering rapist Muslims..

    In short Muslims all evil everyone else doodh main dholay hoay..
    Muslim invaders to Sub continent. Not Islam. How much they followed Islam in their deeds is for muslims to judge and tell people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Always hilarious to see apologists trying to downplay the brutality and savagery of Islamic barbarians which led to destruction of native culture not only in Indian Subcontinent but also in pretty much whole Central and Western Asia.

    Before Turkic invasions and inspite of it's general decline as a whole(more in south), Buddhism was thriving in Northern India as noted by presence of flourishing Universities of Nalanda, Tilodaka and Bodh Gaya.

    Heck Buddhist monasteries at Sanchi and Amravati continued to flourish till the 12th-13th century (your argument of Bhakti Saints dismantling Buddhism falls flat here). The Chachnama refers to Buddhism prospering in Sindh. In Kashmir the Jayendra Monastery at Srinagar and Raja Monastery at Parihaspura were in decline by the 11th century but the Ratnagupta monastery and Ratnarashmi monastery at Anupampura were burgeoning by 12th century.

    The Palas of Bengal and Bihar were patrons of Buddhism. There were active interaction between them and Tibetan Monks. In Odhisa remains of early medieval Buddhist stupas and Viharas have been found at Lalitagiri and Ratnagiri.

    I wonder what suddenly transpired which led to a sudden downfall of Buddhism in North India (even though like I already stated it was thriving well here till 12th century). Oh yeah it must have been those evil Bhakti Saints who by their vigorous conversions and wickedness forced Buddhists to become a miniscule minority in India while the savages from Central Asia who recently arrived in India paid them no heed and continued to peacefully rule the region.

    Sounds great man. I'm totally convinced.
    It'll be my last post here, because I only have such tolerance for self deluding pseudo ideologues who are unable to assess their own intellectual and mental shortcomings, and I'm putting you on my ignore list.

    You say Islam destroyed Buddhism in India ; I gave you scholarly reference pointing out the exact opposite, and ironically, saying exactly what you're saying now to save Hinduism from the same accusation, namely that the Buddhist activities continued in the north CENTURIES after the 'Khilji onslaught'. Read the Elverskog quote I posted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Lol the evidence for the worship of Tantric deities goes back to 5th century CE ( so much for pre Aryan mask of India ) and some of its early scriptures were composed during this period as well.
    The early medieval period saw further development of Tantric cult and practices. You have been caught lying once again. LMAO I'm enjoying it.Keep those 'facts' of yours coming.
    The EVIDENCES go back to the 5th century, and incidentally as Andr Padoux notes they're Buddhic and not Hindu. What's the EVIDENCE (manuscripts, for instance) that Vedic scriptures are that old ? Have you heard of "oral tradition", which you can't always substantiate with EVIDENCES close enough ? Do you know that a tradition doesn't pop out of thin air in the 5th century but has a history behind... ? What will remain of the shruti/smriti scriptures if we only stop at EVIDENCES ? You're sounding silly now.

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    enkidu_ as usual presenting factual data backed up by neutral scholarly works while his opponents are reduced to mocking smileys and sarcasm, the lowest form of wit. Keep up the good work bro, you have more patience than me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    It'll be my last post here, because I only have such tolerance for self deluding pseudo ideologues who are unable to assess their own intellectual and mental shortcomings, and I'm putting you on my ignore list.

    You say Islam destroyed Buddhism in India ; I gave you scholarly reference pointing out the exact opposite, and ironically, saying exactly what you're saying now to save Hinduism from the same accusation, namely that the Buddhist activities continued in the north CENTURIES after the 'Khilji onslaught'. Read the Elverskog quote I posted above.



    The EVIDENCES go back to the 5th century, and incidentally as Andr Padoux notes they're Buddhic and not Hindu. What's the EVIDENCE (manuscripts, for instance) that Vedic scriptures are that old ? Have you heard of "oral tradition", which you can't always substantiate with EVIDENCES close enough ? Do you know that a tradition doesn't pop out of thin air in the 5th century but has a history behind... ? What will remain of the shruti/smriti scriptures if we only stop at EVIDENCES ? You're sounding silly now.
    I gave you a list of prospering Buddhist Monasteries on the eve of Islamic invasion of India. You otoh blabbered about some unknown irrelevant scholars. It's crystal clear here who's making up stuff and who's quoting the authentic sources.

    Oh wait so you mean to tell me there are oral traditions verifying Tantra's existence around 1500-2000 BC(i.e before Aryan invasions)
    I rest my case. You win.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Nobody has claimed that. Stop getting your dhoti in twist for no apparent reason.
    Hinduism like any other religion is a compound of magic and superstition.
    Yahan koi doodh ka dhula nahin hai.
    Oh cmon on now..lets be honest and say what we really think..cmon..you should have the courage of your convictions to say what you really feel!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Muslim invaders to Sub continent. Not Islam. How much they followed Islam in their deeds is for muslims to judge and tell people.
    Then that should be stated to differentiate... a ruler did many things to further his rule..that was the nature of things in certain centuries as it is now..

    some posters are keen to try and equate the misdeeds of selfish rulers with that of religions..

    By the way the Prophet pbuh was not a warlord and neither was he a conqueror in the 11th or 12th century form ..it was a unique situation in a unique and very short period of time..

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Oh cmon on now..lets be honest and say what we really think..cmon..you should have the courage of your convictions to say what you really feel!!
    What do you want me to say Bhai? I'm not a religious guy at all.
    For me my tribal/clan identity matters far more than any of these labels.


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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Then that should be stated to differentiate... a ruler did many things to further his rule..that was the nature of things in certain centuries as it is now..

    some posters are keen to try and equate the misdeeds of selfish rulers with that of religions..

    By the way the Prophet pbuh was not a warlord and neither was he a conqueror in the 11th or 12th century form ..it was a unique situation in a unique and very short period of time..
    So he never fought a war? He never started fights? He never used sword to conquer territory?

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    If people want to restore ancient symbols or structures, it's fine.

    Muslims in the past left many structures esp God like figures.

    As for Bhuddism being wiped out, well if you're religion is so special it wont be wiped out. You will fight for it or it will remain because its the truth.

    Indians will never get over Muslims ruling them. This is expceted, since no minority of Hindus have or will ever rule over Muslims.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    If people want to restore ancient symbols or structures, it's fine.

    Muslims in the past left many structures esp God like figures.

    As for Bhuddism being wiped out, well if you're religion is so special it wont be wiped out. You will fight for it or it will remain because its the truth.

    Indians will never get over Muslims ruling them. This is expceted, since no minority of Hindus have or will ever rule over Muslims.
    Agreed. I think its because of Hindus being a weaker species due to non consumption of beef and other meat products.


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    Buddhism is a very attractive philosophy, I have never looked at it in detail, but like most others I have been exposed to the teachings which have become very admired in the west. I certainly find it far more logical and less confusing than Hinduism, so I can see why it has spread outside the subcontinent more successfully.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Agreed. I think its because of Hindus being a weaker species due to non consumption of beef and other meat products.
    Not at all. Our subcontinent kingdoms never present united front when facing a foreign invader. We are too busy squabbling among ourselves.

    Also, I feel that the invaders are a lot more motivated and vicious than our people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Agreed. I think its because of Hindus being a weaker species due to non consumption of beef and other meat products.
    No need to get emotional bro. Im only stating history and reasoning to suggest no Muslim nation from now would be under their control. I think it's wrong for Indian posters to get strung up on history esp of Muslim rule, they wont change history. But by making silly rants about Islamic invaders being so bad only goes to show their insecurity.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Buddhism is a very attractive philosophy, I have never looked at it in detail, but like most others I have been exposed to the teachings which have become very admired in the west. I certainly find it far more logical and less confusing than Hinduism, so I can see why it has spread outside the subcontinent more successfully.
    Buddhism has the concept of missionaries and the Bhikshus actively preach the teachings of Buddha. Emperor Ashoka has done major work in the spreading of Buddhism in Asia.

    Unfortunately subcontinent is gripped by the left overs of the invaders.

    We have great alternative philosophies to Hinduism like Buddhism/Jainism/Sikhism. Even in Hinduism we have Arya Samaj.

  42. #42
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    The world needs revival of Buddhism. Neo Budhdhism is the cure for many of the world's evils.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    The world needs revival of Buddhism. Neo Budhdhism is the cure for many of the world's evils.
    100% agreed.

    World needs the preachings of Buddha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    100% agreed.

    World needs the preachings of Buddha.
    Remember the story of the old lady who went to The Buddha to revive her son, Buddha gave her a reality check that death is inevitable. Any other religion, and they would perform a miracle. What separates Buddha from others is that he never performed magic. And this was centuries before even Christ was born.
    Last edited by CricketCartoons; 12th July 2018 at 14:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Remember the story of the old lady who went to The Buddha to revive her son, Buddha gave her a reality check that death is inevitable. Any other religion, and they would perform a miracle. What separates Buddha from others is that he never performed magic. And this was centuries before even Christ was born.
    I have become interested in Buddhism in recent times. Been watching some videos of Sadhguru on Youtube. He always narrates stories of Buddha and how he dealt with various questions and scenarios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Remember the story of the old lady who went to The Buddha to revive her son, Buddha gave her a reality check that death is inevitable. Any other religion, and they would perform a miracle. What separates Buddha from others is that he never performed magic. And this was centuries before even Christ was born.
    There have been very few people like Siddhartha. He was truly an enlightened one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    I have become interested in Buddhism in recent times. Been watching some videos of Sadhguru on Youtube. He always narrates stories of Buddha and how he dealt with various questions and scenarios.
    I hope you confine yourself to his teachings only and don't go beyond since after couple of centuries of Buddha's death with the arrival of Mahayana sect, Buddhism turned into Hinduism on steroids.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    I hope you confine yourself to his teachings only and don't go beyond since after couple of centuries of Buddha's death with the arrival of Mahayana sect, Buddhism turned into Hinduism on steroids.
    There is a reason Buddhism didn't survive despite its superior wisdom. You must acquire power before showing tolerance, otherwise it is a weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    Buddhism has the concept of missionaries and the Bhikshus actively preach the teachings of Buddha. Emperor Ashoka has done major work in the spreading of Buddhism in Asia.

    Unfortunately subcontinent is gripped by the left overs of the invaders.

    We have great alternative philosophies to Hinduism like Buddhism/Jainism/Sikhism. Even in Hinduism we have Arya Samaj.
    But Hindus often don't accept Buddhism is something apart, often they argue that it is only a separate strand of Hinduism itself, same as Sikh religion. Or is it the other way round? I don't know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    But Hindus often don't accept Buddhism is something apart, often they argue that it is only a separate strand of Hinduism itself, same as Sikh religion. Or is it the other way round? I don't know.
    Modern hindus want to accept dharmic religions as part of their faith despite few differences, while modern muslims want to reject others from the fold of islam based on few differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Modern hindus want to accept dharmic religions as part of their faith despite few differences, while modern muslims want to reject others from the fold of islam based on few differences.
    I think main difference is that Buddhism and Islam are portrayed as universal, whereas Hinduism is tied to the very soil of Hindustan itself as per Hindutva doctrines. Hence the global spread of those religions as compared to Hinduism. I am of course talking about philosophical spread, not physical through emigration of X number of Indians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    I think main difference is that Buddhism and Islam are portrayed as universal, whereas Hinduism is tied to the very soil of Hindustan itself as per Hindutva doctrines. Hence the global spread of those religions as compared to Hinduism. I am of course talking about philosophical spread, not physical through emigration of X number of Indians.
    Todays Hinduism is like the past Islam, inclusive and wants everyone in their fold. While todays Islam has become exclusive like the past Hinduism, where definitions are narrowed down to exclude people from the fold of Islam. So agree with the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Todays Hinduism is like the past Islam, inclusive and wants everyone in their fold. While todays Islam has become exclusive like the past Hinduism, where definitions are narrowed down to exclude people from the fold of Islam. So agree with the difference.
    Where is the evidence that today's Hinduism is inclusive and wants everyone in their fold? I have researched Hindutva sites and they seem totally focused on India and how everyone living there must adopt the culture of the geographical region of India, I have seen no evidence that it is a missionary faith like the Abrahamic ones which are taken abroad. If anything, Hinduism prides itself on it's local culture. Even those emigrants who travel far from the shores of India are encouraged to adopt the culture of their new lands and take names like Bobby and Nikki.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Where is the evidence that today's Hinduism is inclusive and wants everyone in their fold? I have researched Hindutva sites and they seem totally focused on India and how everyone living there must adopt the culture of the geographical region of India, I have seen no evidence that it is a missionary faith like the Abrahamic ones which are taken abroad. If anything, Hinduism prides itself on it's local culture. Even those emigrants who travel far from the shores of India are encouraged to adopt the culture of their new lands and take names like Bobby and Nikki.
    To be honest, you are not known for research. You should know the difference between being inclusive and being expansionist. Inclusive means accepting others as your own and not going after their territory. Like hindus accept other religions which took refuge or were born in this holy land. Trying to convert others to increase numbers and gain territory is not being inclusive, but being expansionist.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    Then that should be stated to differentiate... a ruler did many things to further his rule..that was the nature of things in certain centuries as it is now..

    some posters are keen to try and equate the misdeeds of selfish rulers with that of religions..

    By the way the Prophet pbuh was not a warlord and neither was he a conqueror in the 11th or 12th century form ..it was a unique situation in a unique and very short period of time..
    The prophet (pbuh) didnot invade the subcontinent. But he did fight wars for islam. He did break the idols in kabaa.

    You do realise that this was twisted by the islamic invaders to justify their acts in the subcontinent. They broke idols destroyed temples forced people into following islam.

    Yet you see people calling these people heroes. These invaders were barbaric selfish people who hardly followed islam and even twisted the acts of the prophet(pbuh) to justify their heinous acts.

    When will muslims say that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    To be honest, you are not known for research. You should know the difference between being inclusive and being expansionist. Inclusive means accepting others as your own and not going after their territory. Like hindus accept other religions which took refuge or were born in this holy land. Trying to convert others to increase numbers and gain territory is not being inclusive, but being expansionist.
    Expansion is merely another term for sharing, this idea of your territory or my territory is in itself exclusive rather than inclusive. So Islam was expansionist with the aim of bringing the whole world under the light of Islam, Buddhism is expansionist with the aim of bringing everyone to enlightenment, the US was expansionist by bringing everyone under the umbrella of NATO. Trump is exclusivist in now he wants to build a fence with Mexico. My research is always half hearted I agree, but I welcome your insight into how Hinduism is world focused rather than regional.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Expansion is merely another term for sharing, this idea of your territory or my territory is in itself exclusive rather than inclusive. So Islam was expansionist with the aim of bringing the whole world under the light of Islam, Buddhism is expansionist with the aim of bringing everyone to enlightenment, the US was expansionist by bringing everyone under the umbrella of NATO. Trump is exclusivist in now he wants to build a fence with Mexico. My research is always half hearted I agree, but I welcome your insight into how Hinduism is world focused rather than regional.
    I stopped reading at the first sentence. Israel is being inclusive with palestine and usa is being inclusive in muslim countries.

    No cure for apologitis.

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    @enkidu_ you seem to miss out on Jainism every single time while speaking about violence of religion.

    It will always be a religion different from others because non-violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    @enkidu_ you seem to miss out on Jainism every single time while speaking about violence of religion.

    It will always be a religion different from others because non-violence.
    Wait before he comes up with a copy paste quote from some random nobody French scholar about how Jainism was initially a violent pagan religion in response to Vedic Brahminism and then throw in 4-5 complex philosophical words to make his post sound more 'hip' to otherwise woefully misinformed British Pakistanis.


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    My ancestors were most probably buddhist before Islam, but i have no problem with it if they accepted Islam under the sword or through their own choice, As Imam Ghazali said Allah achieves by the sword what is not achieved by Dawah as most of mankind is stubborn in their ways and most of the people accepted Islam under the shadow of the sword, (during his time that was).

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    I stopped reading at the first sentence. Israel is being inclusive with palestine and usa is being inclusive in muslim countries.

    No cure for apologitis.
    So what does that tell you about the reality of the world even in the 21st century? Both countries are heroic role models for many Indians today.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    My ancestors were most probably buddhist before Islam, but i have no problem with it if they accepted Islam under the sword or through their own choice, As Imam Ghazali said Allah achieves by the sword what is not achieved by Dawah as most of mankind is stubborn in their ways and most of the people accepted Islam under the shadow of the sword, (during his time that was).
    @the Great Khan @Cpt. Rishwat @Mamoon

    Is this thought acceptable within Islam?The bolded part that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    @the Great Khan @Cpt. Rishwat @Mamoon

    Is this thought acceptable within Islam?The bolded part that is.
    Acceptable according to the people who engage in terrorism in the name of Islam and people who are terrorism apologists. This is exactly how they justify their actions and beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    @the Great Khan @Cpt. Rishwat @Mamoon

    Is this thought acceptable within Islam?The bolded part that is.
    Ghazali was a product of his time..perpetual warfare and issues..he was a great scholar philosopher and thinker..but thats his opinion. I disagree with it and many have disagreed with it. It also contradicts the Quraan itself and it was probably a matter of fact statement from a scholar..

    Ill give you an example..two conquests..Syria and afghanistan..

    Both countries were conquered pretty quickly..now in those days what did counquered mean? you would defeat the king in a field engagement and most of the time the king would be removed and a vassal place in his stead who agreed to pay tributes every year and ensure he accepted the authority of the central Muslim caliph..end of..the vassal was left to his own devices after that..as long as the king didnt cause a major headache he was left alone..

    this happened in afghanistan,..

    n Syria it was similar but central govt infrastructure was shifted there and it became a pivot state..the populace remained largely Non Muslim for 500 odd years..

    the ruler would change, the bureaucracy but nobody was forced to submit..

    until the Mongols turned up..thats the time Ghazali was born in..think of nuclear war without the radiation and bombs..thats what the Mongols did..

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    @the Great Khan @Cpt. Rishwat @Mamoon

    Is this thought acceptable within Islam?The bolded part that is.
    It obviously isn't acceptable otherwise all Islamic countries would be like ISIS, i.e. living like it was the year 1200 AD which is probably where that quote was taken from. A lot of religions have similar texts or sentiments which would be deemed unacceptable today, but it is true that there is a hardcore element among Muslims that believe they stand for all time and are not to be tempered with time like Hindu or Christian scripts.


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    Wonderful news, great job Pakistan. Indian media rarely highlights positive news from across the border, both sets of people across LoC are brainwashed by propaganda tools, hope we recognize the good in each other and rid ourselves of misconceptions about the 'other'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swashbuckler View Post
    Wonderful news, great job Pakistan. Indian media rarely highlights positive news from across the border, both sets of people across LoC are brainwashed by propaganda tools, hope we recognize the good in each other and rid ourselves of misconceptions about the 'other'.
    Indian media doesnt even highlight the neglect and apathy of our own temples.

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    Great to see. Monumnents like that should never be destroyed. These zealous fanatics should never be allowed to win

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    Some Zakir Naik supporter's here want ancient statues in Muslim countries to be demolished. There argument is that as Nabi(saw) liberated the Khana-e-Ka'aba from idol's Muslim people should destroy all temples and idol's in there countries as well! These ancient statues are invaluable pieces of history that should be respected. Glad to see they have been restored.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Wait before he comes up with a copy paste quote from some random nobody French scholar about how Jainism was initially a violent pagan religion in response to Vedic Brahminism and then throw in 4-5 complex philosophical words to make his post sound more 'hip' to otherwise woefully misinformed British Pakistanis.
    Lol you seem annoyed

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Some Zakir Naik supporter's here want ancient statues in Muslim countries to be demolished. There argument is that as Nabi(saw) liberated the Khana-e-Ka'aba from idol's Muslim people should destroy all temples and idol's in there countries as well! These ancient statues are invaluable pieces of history that should be respected. Glad to see they have been restored.
    Well the same argument was used by Muslim invaders when they destroyed temples in India.

    Same was used by Taliban to destroy Bamiyan buddhas.

    Same was used by ISIS to destroy ancient ruins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TM Riddle View Post
    Wait before he comes up with a copy paste quote from some random nobody French scholar about how Jainism was initially a violent pagan religion in response to Vedic Brahminism and then throw in 4-5 complex philosophical words to make his post sound more 'hip' to otherwise woefully misinformed British Pakistanis.
    The other day he was basing his argument on audrey truschke. Might work with the semi literates and ignorants, who get impressed when anyone throws anything which is too complex for their brains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Well the same argument was used by Muslim invaders when they destroyed temples in India.

    Same was used by Taliban to destroy Bamiyan buddhas.

    Same was used by ISIS to destroy ancient ruins.
    So then we should give credit to Pakistan as a country for restoring these idols rather than destroying them. Well done Pakistan!


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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Well the same argument was used by Muslim invaders when they destroyed temples in India.

    Same was used by Taliban to destroy Bamiyan buddhas.

    Same was used by ISIS to destroy ancient ruins.
    Can you produce video's of invaders destroying Hindu temples centuries back? I am no supporter of anyone destroying any place of worship. The Americans have destroyed many Masjid's in places like Iraq yet I do not judge Christianity by that. I suggest you do the same by seeing the difference between Islam and Muslim's.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    My ancestors were most probably buddhist before Islam, but i have no problem with it if they accepted Islam under the sword or through their own choice, As Imam Ghazali said Allah achieves by the sword what is not achieved by Dawah as most of mankind is stubborn in their ways and most of the people accepted Islam under the shadow of the sword, (during his time that was).
    So in your view of the world it should be ok for any other religion to do the same to Muslims ? All they need to have is undying belief that their own religion is the true word of God and therefore everything is ok then.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    @the Great Khan @Cpt. Rishwat @Mamoon

    Is this thought acceptable within Islam?The bolded part that is.
    IF you go purely based on track record this is pretty much how vast majority of Islamic rulers operated from Day-1 with rare exceptions.


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    Quote Originally Posted by PakLFC View Post
    Can you produce video's of invaders destroying Hindu temples centuries back? I am no supporter of anyone destroying any place of worship. The Americans have destroyed many Masjid's in places like Iraq yet I do not judge Christianity by that. I suggest you do the same by seeing the difference between Islam and Muslim's.
    Hard to do that given the realities. In India the Muslims are still doggedly resisting any effort to build Ram temple despite scientific evidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Hard to do that given the realities. In India the Muslims are still doggedly resisting any effort to build Ram temple despite scientific evidence.
    Everyone should resist building of the temple. The destruction of it by mobs was pathetic enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    Everyone should resist building of the temple. The destruction of it by mobs was pathetic enough.
    We should first stop building multiplexes and sports stadium, then perhaps we can move to stop building temples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Hard to do that given the realities. In India the Muslims are still doggedly resisting any effort to build Ram temple despite scientific evidence.
    Means you have no evidence other then ancient rumours. Many Muslim's in your country seem happy the see the temple being built where as others not.You can not use the building of the temple as some form of revenge over what was supposedly done to them centuries back. It's ridiculous!


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