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View Poll Results: Do you believe that the Pakistan General Elections be held in a fair manner?

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • Totally fair

    2 13.33%
  • Somewhat fair

    6 40.00%
  • Will be rigged

    7 46.67%
  • Cannot say!

    0 0%
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Results 161 to 223 of 223
  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    unless our courts declare any of these guys terrorists your comments means nothing so live in your bubble stop commenting on our internal issues humara mulk, humari army and humari politics who are you to comment on it?
    This thread exists for people to comment on it. Grow up.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    This thread exists for people to comment on it. Grow up.
    You grow up first to respect our courts and institutions.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  3. #163
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    @enkidu_

    The current president of India is a Dalit, just saying.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    You grow up first to respect our courts and institutions.
    Accha?

    So I should respect your courts while you don't respect ours?

    Sounds like a reasonable expectation LOL.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Accha?

    So I should respect your courts while you don't respect ours?

    Sounds like a reasonable expectation LOL.
    You are the one to raise finger first i didn't i just used your own logic against you.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    You are the one to raise finger first i didn't i just used your own logic against you.
    Hafiz Saeed is a UN sanctioned terrorist and USA has a bounty on his head. He is banned from entering any country in the world except Pakistan.

    If you see this as "raising finger", then the entire world does it. Learn to live with it.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Hafiz Saeed is a UN sanctioned terrorist and USA has a bounty on his head. He is banned from entering any country in the world except Pakistan.

    If you see this as "raising finger", then the entire world does it. Learn to live with it.
    Hafiz Saeed himself is not contesting he never ruled over us and is also not convicted by our courts that's what matters to me.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Hafiz Saeed himself is not contesting he never ruled over us and is also not convicted by our courts that's what matters to me.
    260 of his party members are contesting, only because your Army is fine with it.

    The entire world calls him a terrorist so nobody cares if you or other Pakistanis call him an angel.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    260 of his party members are contesting, only because your Army is fine with it.

    The entire world calls him a terrorist so nobody cares if you or other Pakistanis call him an angel.
    FYI they are contesting in Pakistan not in rest of the world so what's your problem? Just like every time they will lose again there is a reason PPP and PMLN rules over us for decades not mullahs. They can call him terrorist in rest of the world but he is in Pakistan and he is no convicted by courts here that's the only thing that matters to me.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  10. #170
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    Pakistan’s military uses menace to ease Imran Khan’s path into power - The Sunday Times

    It is fantastic to see that the military propaganda and Imran Khan’s boot-licking continues to be exposed in international media.

    Undoubtedly the dirtiest and most rigged election in Pakistan’s history.

    Also, much to the disappointment of some of our friends here, the author is not Indian. Here are some important excerpts from the article:

    After 31 years reporting from the country, our reporter was barred as the army stifles coverage of Khan’s election rivals.

    Gul Bukhari, 52, was driving to her television studio in Lahore one night last month when pick-up trucks blocked her way and armed men dragged her from her car so forcefully they left bruises on her neck and back.

    The political commentator, who has dual British-Pakistani nationality, was held for several hours. Released only after her disappearance prompted outrage across social media, she says her abductors threatened to harm her husband and son if she revealed details.

    “I feel very insecure, always looking over my shoulder and worrying about my son,” she said last week.

    Bukhari is a prominent critic of the Pakistani military and their interference in politics. She describes her abduction from a main road dotted with military checkpoints as “a clear message”.

    Munizae Jahangir, anchor for Aaj TV, accompanied Sharif ten days ago as he flew with his daughter Maryam back from London. She interviewed him en route — and when she continued to film as the Sharifs were taken off the flight and surrounded by police and intelligence operatives, one officer warned her to stop. “Do you want to see our hospitality?” he asked as he took his gun out of his pocket, she said. Her channel did not air her interview with Sharif. “There was a complete clampdown,” she said. “I’ve never seen anything like this before, it’s a very sinister situation.”

    Geo TV, Pakistan’s most popular channel, did not broadcast a report by another well-known journalist, Talat Hussain, on the mass protests by Sharif supporters at their leader’s arrest. Instead it showed Imran Khan rallies and highlights of his international cricket career.

    The military is trying to control the narrative,” said Bukhari, who argues that the situation is even worse than it was under the martial law dictator Gen Zia-ul-Haq in the 1980s, as editors would then leave blank spaces to show censorship.

    But, she insists, “while media houses have surrendered, many journalists have not and are using social media to say what is really happening”. The problem is that less than a quarter of Pakistan’s 220m people have access to the internet.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...92.1532260374#

  11. #171
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    Inshallah Pak Army will ease it some more. Long like IK. Long live establishment.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Who cares? Pak is already on the gray list. When the world sees 260 terrorists contesting elections, their decision to put further sanctions is going to be all the more easy.

    And unfortunately for Pakistan, nobody in the world buys their "Terrorist Modi" narrative so hard luck there because that is what matters in the end.
    You can gray list, black list or any collor you want but we dont have a mass murderer aka terrorist as our PM.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It is fantastic to see that the military propaganda and Imran Khan’s boot-licking continues to be exposed in international media.

    Undoubtedly the dirtiest and most rigged election in Pakistan’s history.

    Also, much to the disappointment of some of our friends here, the author is not Indian. Here are some important excerpts from the article:



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...92.1532260374#
    Gul Bukhari is a proven liar and Talat hussain well dont have anything to say about him.
    And big Geo most populer channel

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistan cricket fan View Post
    Gul Bukhari is a proven liar and Talat hussain well dont have anything to say about him.
    And big Geo most populer channel
    Of course. Anyone who is not on the Imran Khan bandwagon at the moment is a liar, and Talat Hussain, along with Hamid Mir, is the strongest journalist in Pakistan.

    Geo is the most popular channel in Pakistan, it is a fact.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Geo is the most popular channel in Pakistan, it is a fact.
    popular yes it was few years ago not anymore. You my friend need a reality check and should check ratings of channels from last 2/3 years. These days you are throwing statements after statements without any facts.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Of course. Anyone who is not on the Imran Khan bandwagon at the moment is a liar, and Talat Hussain, along with Hamid Mir, is the strongest journalist in Pakistan.

    Geo is the most popular channel in Pakistan, it is a fact.
    Well you are. Arent you the guy that ran from your thread on PK?

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    popular yes it was few years ago not anymore. You my friend need a reality check and should check ratings of channels from last 2/3 years. These days you are throwing statements after statements without any facts.
    Uninformed overseas Pakistanis

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Uninformed overseas Pakistanis
    He is doing exactly wo tamam cheazain jis sabki waja se dusron ko blame kerta tha


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    popular yes it was few years ago not anymore. You my friend need a reality check and should check ratings of channels from last 2/3 years. These days you are throwing statements after statements without any facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Uninformed overseas Pakistanis
    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    He is doing exactly wo tamam cheazain jis sabki waja se dusron ko blame kerta tha
    I’m not interested in ratings. GEO remains the most well-known and establishment private news channel in Pakistan.

    The fact that it was shown some thirty year old irrelevant cricket highlights over the protests clearly shows who is pulling the strings these days, and the unjustifiably censorship that has been imposed on the media houses.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Of course. Anyone who is not on the Imran Khan bandwagon at the moment is a liar, and Talat Hussain, along with Hamid Mir, is the strongest journalist in Pakistan.

    Geo is the most popular channel in Pakistan, it is a fact.
    What Imran khan bandwagon If he is a chor or anybody else i will say it, i dont care about any political party.
    And no Geo was but not now the most populer channel.
    You mean likkin shareefs boots is a good journalist then agree then they are the not good but the best out there.

  21. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I’m not interested in ratings. GEO remains the most well-known and establishment private news channel in Pakistan.

    The fact that it was shown some thirty year old irrelevant cricket highlights over the protests clearly shows who is pulling the strings these days, and the unjustifiably censorship that has been imposed on the media houses.
    But you said GEO is the most popular channel now you are saying you are not interested in ratings. Itni munafiqat kyun bhai?

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    I’m not interested in ratings.
    You are not interested in any debate these days you run away after posting without facts.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  23. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    But you said GEO is the most popular channel now you are saying you are not interested in ratings. Itni munafiqat kyun bhai?
    No one cares about ratings. If you ask any man on the streets which is the most popular channel in Pakistan, they will name GEO, and that is because it was well ahead of its before other channels started to copy their model.

    Moreover, it is the channel that the establishment fears the most, as history shows.

  24. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    No one cares about ratings. If you ask any man on the streets which is the most popular channel in Pakistan, they will name GEO, and that is because it was well ahead of its before other channels started to copy their model.

    Moreover, it is the channel that the establishment fears the most, as history shows.
    Mamoon you were a decent poster once and i enjoyed having debates with you but now these anti establishment and saazish theories in every post are getting boring and the way you are running away from every thread and post where you were caught red handed is making debates impossible. I am going to follow @Pakpak and put you on ignore list from now on. Thank you, best of luck to you and your party and your new leader.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  25. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    FYI they are contesting in Pakistan not in rest of the world so what's your problem? Just like every time they will lose again there is a reason PPP and PMLN rules over us for decades not mullahs. They can call him terrorist in rest of the world but he is in Pakistan and he is no convicted by courts here that's the only thing that matters to me.
    LOL who says I have a problem? It should be a massive concern to every Pakistani citizen, but looking at your reaction, most of them seem happy about this.

    Lage raho phir. You got another 15 months by the way before your country is put on the black list, after which all aid, remittances and even trade routes will be blocked.





    Your so called leaders and army gernails will catch the first flight and fly out to foreign countries where their children are citizens so they are least affected with any of this mess. Just think what is going to happen to the common man living in Pakistan.

  26. #186
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    Back to topic.

    I think the elections can only be fair if the PMLN, PPP and MQM goons are not intimidating the voters which I highly doubt.

    They will be positioned at every station to bribe and intimidate the voters. Probably more so this election as the stakes are high.

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    LOL who says I have a problem? It should be a massive concern to every Pakistani citizen, but looking at your reaction, most of them seem happy about this.

    Lage raho phir. You got another 15 months by the way before your country is put on the black list, after which all aid, remittances and even trade routes will be blocked.





    Your so called leaders and army gernails will catch the first flight and fly out to foreign countries where their children are citizens so they are least affected with any of this mess. Just think what is going to happen to the common man living in Pakistan.
    You should be more worried about mob lynching over cows in your country. Anyway thanks for your concerns we are better with your advise.


    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  28. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    LOL who says I have a problem? It should be a massive concern to every Pakistani citizen, but looking at your reaction, most of them seem happy about this.

    Lage raho phir. You got another 15 months by the way before your country is put on the black list, after which all aid, remittances and even trade routes will be blocked.





    Your so called leaders and army gernails will catch the first flight and fly out to foreign countries where their children are citizens so they are least affected with any of this mess. Just think what is going to happen to the common man living in Pakistan.
    Considering the rate at which we are handing tickets to terrotists, it is only a matter of time before we are blacklisted.

  29. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Mamoon you were a decent poster once and i enjoyed having debates with you but now these anti establishment and saazish theories in every post are getting boring and the way you are running away from every thread and post where you were caught red handed is making debates impossible. I am going to follow @Pakpak and put you on ignore list from now on. Thank you, best of luck to you and your party and your new leader.
    Thank you for the kind words, it was a pleasure interacting with you over the last five years.

  30. #190
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    @Napa looks like I wasn't clear enough : it's not always about economy, even if I do believe having China as an ally will help in that field. Compromising an ideology (the TNT) is the issue.

    Under "Hindu genocider" Aurangzeb, India had the second largest GDP in the world, just after China, representing something like 20%. Let's forget technicalities (how industrialization changed the dynamics, etc) but if you ask the majority of Hindus if they want their country to represent 20% of the world's GDP but in exchange be ruled by Aurangzeb, what do you think their reaction will be ? I'm sure Hindus of India would prefer living like Hindus of Nepal than being again under Islamic rule for 1000 odd years. In the same way even if Pak becomes worse than Somalia economically it's better than it doesn't compromise with India, esp. with its rising Hindu nationalism and 'Akhand Bharat' idea which poses an existential threat to Pak as well as to the whole neighborhood.

    As for the Aryan invasion, it's because many Hindu nationalists say to India's Muslims/Christians that they follow a "foreign creed", yet for those who have faith in the Aryan invasion (whether violent as old school or diffuse as modern trends), Hindus themselves are guilty of that.

    @Moh@n one Dalit President or cricketer doesn't change the on-ground situation.

    Dalits, or schedule castes, comprise 16.6% (201 million) of India’s population, up from 16.2% in 2001, according to Census 2011. Adivasis form 8.6% (104 million) of the country’s population, up from 8.2% over a decade.

    As many as 422,799 crimes against dalits or scheduled castes (SCs) and 81,332 crimes against adivasis were reported between 2006 and 2016. The highest increases in crimes were recorded in eight states–Goa, Kerala, Delhi, Gujarat, Bihar, Maharashtra, Jharkhand and Sikkim–where rates rose over 10 times. Meanwhile 81,322 crimes against adivasis have been reported from 2006 to 2016, with the highest increases in crime rates recorded in Kerala, Karnataka and Bihar.
    http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-stor...ose-by-746-746

    According to the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) data, cognizable crimes against Dalits pending police investigation rose from 8,380 cases in 2006 to 16,654 cases in 2016, a jump of 99 percent. In Maharashtra state, where Dalits make up for 11.2 percent of the population, crimes against Dalits rose from 10.6 per 100,000 Dalits in 2006 to 13.2 in 2016.

    The National Human Rights Commission’s 2010 report showed that every 18 minutes there is a crime committed against a Dalit. On an average basis, three Dalit women are raped, and two Dalits are murdered every day. An assessment of the NHRC statistics done by retired bureaucrat K.B. Saxena revealed that 37 percent of Dalits live below the poverty line.
    https://theglobepost.com/2018/06/19/...lits-violence/

  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    You should be more worried about mob lynching over cows in your country. Anyway thanks for your concerns we are better with your advise.
    Killing a cow is illegal in India. I don't defend mob attacks but painting people who break the law of the land as victims is shameful in my opinion. But that is a debate for another thread I guess.

    Thanks to you too for your concerns about them.

  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    @Napa looks like I wasn't clear enough : it's not always about economy, even if I do believe having China as an ally will help in that field. Compromising an ideology (the TNT) is the issue.
    You are stuck in the past, this is year 2018, not 1947.

    The TNT issue was settled in 1947 when the Muslims got their own country. Many Muslims left India and many stayed behind. You don't have to keep a low-level war with India going to validate TNT.

    If anything, the inability of Pakistan to get its house in order is a repudiation of TNT. Pakistan has failed to progress economically and is regarded worldwide as a base for terrorists.

    And you think if IK spoke about making peace with India it would be a bad thing?

    Under "Hindu genocider" Aurangzeb, India had the second largest GDP in the world, just after China, representing something like 20%. Let's forget technicalities (how industrialization changed the dynamics, etc) but if you ask the majority of Hindus if they want their country to represent 20% of the world's GDP but in exchange be ruled by Aurangzeb, what do you think their reaction will be ?
    Free markets and law and order usually have resulted in India flourishing economically. I do not know why the response of Hindus will be to Aurangzeb, but one certainly does not need Aurangzeb for free markets and law and order. India did well economically under other empires too and is starting to do well now.

    Aurangzeb's great failure was an inability to compromise with the Hindus which led him to the disastrous Deccan campaign against the Marathas. You speak of Aurangzeb as if he was a success. His war with the Marathas lasted the last 26 years of his life. 2 million civilians died as a result of this war. Nearing the age of 90 he wrote "I came alone and I go as a stranger. I do not know who I am, nor what I have been doing".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal...93Maratha_Wars

    Not only did Aurangzeb fail, but he failed so massively that he left for his successors a Mughal Empire which was no longer a power, but a puppet of the Marathas, the Afghans etc. Invaders like Nader Shah pillaged and massacred Indians (and yes, that would include present day India) as the Mughals were no longer able to resist.

    I don't think any Indian, Hindu or otherwise will want Aurangzeb back.

    I'm sure Hindus of India would prefer living like Hindus of Nepal than being again under Islamic rule for 1000 odd years. In the same way even if Pak becomes worse than Somalia economically it's better than it doesn't compromise with India, esp. with its rising Hindu nationalism and 'Akhand Bharat' idea which poses an existential threat to Pak as well as to the whole neighborhood.
    You have this very odd notion that Indians wish to invade and take over Pakistan. Everything the Pakistani Army tells you isn't true. Pakistan isn't exactly Switzerland that anyone would benefit from annexing it.

    As for the Aryan invasion, it's because many Hindu nationalists say to India's Muslims/Christians that they follow a "foreign creed", yet for those who have faith in the Aryan invasion (whether violent as old school or diffuse as modern trends), Hindus themselves are guilty of that.

    @Moh@n one Dalit President or cricketer doesn't change the on-ground situation.

    http://www.indiaspend.com/cover-stor...ose-by-746-746

    https://theglobepost.com/2018/06/19/...lits-violence/
    Why are you bothered about Hindu nationalists? There are lots of people saying lots of crazy things in the world. There are Indian, Pakistani, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, White, European, African, Japanese, Chinese etc. supremacists. Your problem is fixing your country, and you are just wasting your time trying to refute the supremacists.

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    Killing a cow is illegal in India. I don't defend mob attacks but painting people who break the law of the land as victims is shameful in my opinion. But that is a debate for another thread I guess.

    Thanks to you too for your concerns about them.
    I believe killing a cow is illegal only in certain states.

    Those who attack the beef eaters should be punished according to the law. Having said that, I would also add that killing a cow is extreme provocation for most Hindus. Something akin to what disrespecting the Koran or its Prophet would be to Muslims.

    However, a provocation is not a legal justification for attacking anyone, and everybody should follow the law.

  34. #194
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    It is better for us Pakistanis for first get our own house in order before criticising other states. @Moh@n is right - we have some unacceptable extremist candidates running in this election. It is totally unacceptable to think they have been supported whilst Jibran Nasir is being targeted.

    We can cry about Modi all we want but until we are as strong and as stable a democracy as India we will always be on the back foot politically.

  35. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You are stuck in the past, this is year 2018, not 1947.

    The TNT issue was settled in 1947 when the Muslims got their own country. Many Muslims left India and many stayed behind. You don't have to keep a low-level war with India going to validate TNT.

    If anything, the inability of Pakistan to get its house in order is a repudiation of TNT. Pakistan has failed to progress economically and is regarded worldwide as a base for terrorists.

    And you think if IK spoke about making peace with India it would be a bad thing?
    Yes, if Imran Khan talks of making peace with India (as he used to before Modi) I'll jump off the PTI bandwagon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I don't think any Indian, Hindu or otherwise will want Aurangzeb back.
    I already said forget about the technicalities (preindustrial economy, internal dissent, etc), but if Hindus of India had the choice to be the world's 20% GDP but in exchange being under Aurangzeb or the Mughals or even one of the other Islamic dynasty of 1000 odd years, they'd refuse, why ? Because ideology is more important than economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You have this very odd notion that Indians wish to invade and take over Pakistan. Everything the Pakistani Army tells you isn't true. Pakistan isn't exactly Switzerland that anyone would benefit from annexing it.
    It's in the fantasy map of Hindu nationalists as you know, whether Switzerland or Somalia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Why are you bothered about Hindu nationalists? There are lots of people saying lots of crazy things in the world. There are Indian, Pakistani, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, White, European, African, Japanese, Chinese etc. supremacists. Your problem is fixing your country, and you are just wasting your time trying to refute the supremacists.
    Because Hindu nationalists impact Indian politics a lot. The Sangh Parivar umbrella of Hindu nationalist parties has a membership of some 150 millions, not counting the informal adherents/sympathizers. A guy like Yogi Adityanath is the CM of the largest Indian state. These are peoples who think that Islam/Christianity are foreign to the whole of South Asia (not only the Indian federation) and that you deserve to be killed for "disrespecting" a cow. What I read just few weeks ago :

    RSS – India's Hindu nationalists spread their wings far and wide


    The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) is a Hindu umbrella group which is the ideological inspiration for PM Modi's rightwing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). RSS, which presents itself as a cultural organization, advocates a Hindu nationalistic agenda under the banner of "Hindutva" or "Hinduness."

    Founded in 1925, the RSS today boasts six million active members. Most of the BJP's leaders, including Modi, have a long history as members of the volunteer movement. The group threw its weight behind Modi ahead of his crushing 2014 election victory over Congress.

    Over the past couple of years, the organization has become even more influential and managed to place its ardent followers in the highest ranks of government. RSS says it has recently seen a spike in its membership requests, indicating its growing popularity among sections of the Indian populace.

    "The RSS has always had a long-term plan. Today, it's in a position to influence the highest decision-making in the country and has its people in key positions in both government and outside. They believe in this robust nationalism," Rahul Gupta, an academic, told DW.

    "Over the past four months, more than 125,000 urban dwellers have become members of the organization and many of them joined online," added Gupta.
    (...)
    https://www.dw.com/en/rss-indias-hin...ide/a-44588126

  36. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    I already said forget about the technicalities (preindustrial economy, internal dissent, etc), but if Hindus of India had the choice to be the world's 20% GDP but in exchange being under Aurangzeb or the Mughals or even one of the other Islamic dynasty of 1000 odd years, they'd refuse, why ? Because ideology is more important than economy.
    Another funny post from you. From bits and piece historian to now pseudo economist. That 20% GDP was because of aurangzeb's economic policies right. If he had lived longer he would have brought industrial revolution in India itself, and India would have continued to surpass everyone in GDP share. @TM Riddle

  37. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Another funny post from you. From bits and piece historian to now pseudo economist. That 20% GDP was because of aurangzeb's economic policies right. If he had lived longer he would have brought industrial revolution in India itself, and India would have continued to surpass everyone in GDP share. @TM Riddle
    Hukam I have given up on him a long ago.
    His only aim seem to be somehow justify the Turkic/Mongol atrocities in the Indian Subcontinent at any cost even if that means blatantly lying and misrepresenting the facts(with referring 'sources' from nobody white scholars for legitimacy).

    KB is the only Pakistani on this board who seem to know about his history.
    Rest all are brainwashed to the core.


    Tazimi Sirdar

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Thank you for the kind words, it was a pleasure interacting with you over the last five years.
    I am not going to follow @Mian. I will show you up and make mince meat out of you as long as i or you are on the board. Hypocrites and liars need to be exposed at every opportunity.

  39. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    1977 and 1997 say hi
    Remember what happen after those elections?? - Pakistan never truly recover from the death of Bhutto and subsequent Zia era... The horse trading culture, Mulvis on steroids, Military controlling all policy matters, the lotas, Military investments in extreme religious ideologies, list is long....All that is the legacy of the era following killing left and ideological base(that was in embryonic stage) politics of 70s...There is no end to it, Pakistan is keep digging into the hole, we still have this delusion that Military is a saviors, let them manage the policy and vision(where as politicians can do the dirty job of wrath of public and Gali/Nali politics) of the country...There report card is not very flattering but rather very damming...Worst part is that nobody is allowed to talk about it
    Last edited by yasir; 22nd July 2018 at 18:25.


    If you want to do things that are certain to succeed, you are doing very obvious thing - E Musk

  40. #200
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    Never was and never will...

  41. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    Yes, if Imran Khan talks of making peace with India (as he used to before Modi) I'll jump off the PTI bandwagon.
    You want to remain on the bandwagon where the low level war with India continues, the Army runs hospitals, construction firms and bakeries, and Pakistan doesn't develop modern industries but continues exporting mangos, soccer balls and textiles. Good for you!

    I already said forget about the technicalities (preindustrial economy, internal dissent, etc), but if Hindus of India had the choice to be the world's 20% GDP but in exchange being under Aurangzeb or the Mughals or even one of the other Islamic dynasty of 1000 odd years, they'd refuse, why ? Because ideology is more important than economy.
    This is a strange question. If Hindus say no to Aurangzeb in spite of greater economic growth, the reason probably be that they do not believe in Aurangzeb's economic competence, and they probably believe that he will start another war like the Mughal-Maratha war in which millions died. You can do a thought experiment in which Aurangzeb is Mother Teresa + Jeff Bezos, but most others will find it inconceivable.

    Because Hindu nationalists impact Indian politics a lot. The Sangh Parivar umbrella of Hindu nationalist parties has a membership of some 150 millions, not counting the informal adherents/sympathizers. A guy like Yogi Adityanath is the CM of the largest Indian state. These are peoples who think that Islam/Christianity are foreign to the whole of South Asia (not only the Indian federation) and that you deserve to be killed for "disrespecting" a cow. What I read just few weeks ago
    Your point is that the choice facing Pakistan is:

    Being Dominated by a Hindu India OR giving the Pakistani Army control of Pakistan's economy and foreign policy.

    The fallacy in your thinking like @CricketCartoons and @TM Riddle have also pointed out is that India is no more interested in taking over Pakistan than it is taking over Somalia. Taking over Pakistan means India's per cap GDP, and Rupee exchange rate will promptly go down, while terrorism and foreign debt will go up. You keep saying "Hindu Nationalists" want to take over Pakistan, but they have as much real power as Muslim fundamentalists in Pakistan who want "Ghazwa-e-Hind".

    If you wish to keep thinking that India is about to invade and annex Pakistan, so you need the Pakistani Army to be supreme within Pakistan, you are not going to make any contribution to your country progressing economically. As long as Pakistan is dominated by its Army is cannot build modern industries, this is simply a fact of life.

  42. #202
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    @Napa look, I'm all for critical engagement and dialectic debate, but you first have to correctly read what I more or less correctly write.

    When I said "forget the technicalities", I was obviously referring to the British apologists arguments - "20% of world's GDP in a pre-industrial world economy doesn't mean much", etc - or the internal strife (Maratha wars).

    My script was simple : let's FORGET the TECHNICALITIES and admit that Hindus of India have a chance of going back to represent 20% of world's GDP, but by bringing "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider".

    Would they choose economy ("20% of world's GDP" by accepting "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider") or ideology (remain proud Hindus, like in neighboring Nepal even if its means having beverages as your best exports) ?

    It was as simple as that, perhaps I'm unable to express in English but I don't know what went over your head as well as @CricketCartoons.

    You gave the same choice : to repudiate the Army/make peace with India, "economy" over "ideology", which in my example, for Hindu of India, would be choosing "20% of world's GDP" even if it means accepting "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider". We must preserve the essence of the TNT over any economic considerations, which fluctuate anyway.

    It's better to live as dignified Somalia than as an Islamic state under the political and economic dominion of Hindus, which hasn't happened much in history either so you don't even know if a Hindu equivalent of Aurangzeb would uplift the GDP of anything.

    And I posted facts about the meteoric rise of Hindu nationalism in Indian politics but apparently you never bother tackling them, but let's admit there's no Hindu nationalism, nor Akhand Bharat agenda despite BJP's national general secretary Ram Madhav openly talking of this (you know, the spokesperson for the ruling party), as already India can't help 300 millions Dalits/Adivasis it would be hard to get future "Kashmiri separatists" as well, so yeah if they're pragmatic they'll forget the plan.

  43. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    @Napa look, I'm all for critical engagement and dialectic debate, but you first have to correctly read what I more or less correctly write.

    When I said "forget the technicalities", I was obviously referring to the British apologists arguments - "20% of world's GDP in a pre-industrial world economy doesn't mean much", etc - or the internal strife (Maratha wars).

    My script was simple : let's FORGET the TECHNICALITIES and admit that Hindus of India have a chance of going back to represent 20% of world's GDP, but by bringing "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider".

    Would they choose economy ("20% of world's GDP" by accepting "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider") or ideology (remain proud Hindus, like in neighboring Nepal even if its means having beverages as your best exports) ?
    If they believed Aurangzeb would not be Aurangzeb, they may accept him.

    It is like asking Israelis "Suppose Hitler was your leader, and assume he would not want to kill Jews, but would increase your GDP ten times, would you accept him as your leader?" I would say that Israelis would laugh at the thought of Hitler not being Hitler.

    It was as simple as that, perhaps I'm unable to express in English but I don't know what went over your head as well as @CricketCartoons.

    You gave the same choice : to repudiate the Army/make peace with India, "economy" over "ideology", which in my example, for Hindu of India, would be choosing "20% of world's GDP" even if it means accepting "Aurangzeb, the Hindu genocider". We must preserve the essence of the TNT over any economic considerations, which fluctuate anyway.

    It's better to live as dignified Somalia than as an Islamic state under the political and economic dominion of Hindus, which hasn't happened much in history either so you don't even know if a Hindu equivalent of Aurangzeb would uplift the GDP of anything.
    I did not give you that choice, I said you think that is your choice and your thinking is wrong. You think that the alternative to continuation of the low-level war is "Islamic state under the political and economic dominion of Hindus". This is not a choice which actually exists, you just wrongly think this is the choice.

    The choice which actually exists for Pakistanis are:

    1)Continue believing that India is the reason for their problems, continue supporting their Army's domination of the economy and foreign policy and continue being backward economically.

    OR

    2) Understand that the Army is useless when it comes to running the economy, understand that the Army is promoting hostility to India so that it can remain supreme within Pakistan, restrict the Army to the work which the US, Indian, British, Russian etc. Armies perform, set the economy free from the Army, see modern industries develop.

    The above 2 are your options. Choosing the second option does not mean you will live in "an Islamic state under the political and economic dominion of Hindus".


    And I posted facts about the meteoric rise of Hindu nationalism in Indian politics but apparently you never bother tackling them, but let's admit there's no Hindu nationalism, nor Akhand Bharat agenda despite BJP's national general secretary Ram Madhav openly talking of this (you know, the spokesperson for the ruling party), as already India can't help 300 millions Dalits/Adivasis it would be hard to get future "Kashmiri separatists" as well, so yeah if they're pragmatic they'll forget the plan.
    You keep talking about Hindu Nationalists and their influence on the Indian government. Do you even realize that Pakistan was created and exists as a religious state? Whereas the influence of religion is marginal on the Indian government, in Pakistan it is embedded in its constitution.

    You keep saying that Hindu Nationalists wish to annex Pakistan, but the desire of religious Pakistani for Ghazwa-e-Hind is more than ten times as much.

    Stop your obsession with India. The people who run the Indian government (whether Congress or BJP) are not stupid. They know annexing Pakistan will be the historically stupidest thing to do. When they get some free time after stealing some money and pandering to voters, they focus on ways to make India develop economically.

    I think I have said all I had to on this topic.
    Last edited by Napa; 22nd July 2018 at 22:36.

  44. #204
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    Nooras didn't complain about the 2013 elections which were fixed in their favor and demanded that PTI and its followers swallow the bitter pill and not be spoilt sports, funny how they are now crying about rigging by the army and the establishment this time.

  45. #205
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    @Napa lol that's the whole point of the example, I talked of Aurangzeb and not Shahrukh Khan because it's the former who's known as the Hindu genocider. The point was about compromise on ideology in favor of economy. Many Indian Hindus would prefer living like Nepali Hindus than being under the rule of Aurangzeb, even if their economy grows, and it's the same for Pak, better remain poor than compromise on the TNT. When Nawaz Sharif gets friendly with Mody/Jindal, it's such betrayal of the TNT.

    I'm not even for the Army involvement in all spheres of the political/economic life of the country, but it's imperative to respect it as an institution, and a professional army can have a positive impact as well in the longer run (the Prussian state which reunified Germany basically was a military dominated state, and many said that it somehow is the reason of Nazi Germany's belligerency as well).

    There's no "obsession with India", it's the Hindu nationalist groups which keep talking of the Akhand Bharat are getting more powerful by the day and we have to be armed to counter the eventual threat. You don't believe me what I literally quote the national general-secretary of the ruling party so I don't know how you will, but quantitatively alone those who talk of Akhand Bharat are more numerous than those who talk of Ghazwa e Hind (Sangh Parivar groups have some 150 millions of members, and it's one of their main ideas that Bharat has been divided by foreigners) , which is not in the ideology of any of the major Islamist parties in Pak (the first time I heard of it was around 2009/2010, from Zaid Hamid).

    In fact I think you're the one to have an "obsession" with Pak Army, shouldn't you also worry about internal issues, like cow vigilantism or the situation of Dalits/Adivasis (300 millions of souls) ?

  46. #206
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    Agree with the majority of points made here.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 23rd July 2018 at 00:02.

  47. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellipsism View Post


    Agree with the majority of points made here.
    Interesting comment from Hamid Mir, “First time I am hearing questions from Punjabi youth about role of Army in politics”

    It’s not just corruption cases, the way electables are pushed into PTI in last year and half, then Jeep party, 500+ candidate of one extremist group, who are nurtured by military in last 2-3 years. Then another extremist party has 150 candidates, which contain world renown terrorists running for election. Side benefit of all this manipulation is to cut down votes to NS, same sort of games were played in 80s to cut PPP in Punjab. There are lot of question marks!!

  48. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by yasir View Post
    Interesting comment from Hamid Mir, “First time I am hearing questions from Punjabi youth about role of Army in politics”

    It’s not just corruption cases, the way electables are pushed into PTI in last year and half, then Jeep party, 500+ candidate of one extremist group, who are nurtured by military in last 2-3 years. Then another extremist party has 150 candidates, which contain world renown terrorists running for election. Side benefit of all this manipulation is to cut down votes to NS, same sort of games were played in 80s to cut PPP in Punjab. There are lot of question marks!!
    For the first time it is a sort of Punjab (Army) v Punjab (N-League) situation.

  49. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by enkidu_ View Post
    @Napa lol that's the whole point of the example, I talked of Aurangzeb and not Shahrukh Khan because it's the former who's known as the Hindu genocider. The point was about compromise on ideology in favor of economy. Many Indian Hindus would prefer living like Nepali Hindus than being under the rule of Aurangzeb, even if their economy grows, and it's the same for Pak, better remain poor than compromise on the TNT. When Nawaz Sharif gets friendly with Mody/Jindal, it's such betrayal of the TNT.
    You keep repeating something that I keep telling you is wrong. You keep repeating that the choice is 1) Pakistan continuing its low-level war with India OR 2) Pakistan "gets friendly" with India which would lead to "Hindu domination of Islamic Pakistan".

    Pakistan doesn't need to be friendly with India, what it needs to do for development is improve security WITHIN Pakistan. For that they need to curb the jihadists and end the Army's low-level war with India. That will not lead to "Hindu domination" of Pakistan, it will lead to Pakistan developing modern industries.

    The real "betrayal" of TNT is the failure of Pakistan do develop. It remains a feudal state with no modern industries.

    I'm not even for the Army involvement in all spheres of the political/economic life of the country, but it's imperative to respect it as an institution, and a professional army can have a positive impact as well in the longer run (the Prussian state which reunified Germany basically was a military dominated state, and many said that it somehow is the reason of Nazi Germany's belligerency as well).
    If you think Prussia is a good model for a 21st century country to follow, you are beyond deluded.

    There's no "obsession with India", it's the Hindu nationalist groups which keep talking of the Akhand Bharat are getting more powerful by the day and we have to be armed to counter the eventual threat. You don't believe me what I literally quote the national general-secretary of the ruling party so I don't know how you will, but quantitatively alone those who talk of Akhand Bharat are more numerous than those who talk of Ghazwa e Hind (Sangh Parivar groups have some 150 millions of members, and it's one of their main ideas that Bharat has been divided by foreigners) , which is not in the ideology of any of the major Islamist parties in Pak (the first time I heard of it was around 2009/2010, from Zaid Hamid).

    In fact I think you're the one to have an "obsession" with Pak Army, shouldn't you also worry about internal issues, like cow vigilantism or the situation of Dalits/Adivasis (300 millions of souls) ?
    Again, you keep repeating yourself that India (via Hindu Nationalists) wants to annex Pakistan, which is ridiculous.

    Obviously, it will be good for India if the Pakistani Army ends its low level war against India, but it will be a hundred times better for Pakistan's economy which shows no signs of development.

    I can tell you this a hundred more times, but as they say "you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink". This is becoming rather futile. Probably good advice for @Mamoon also.
    Last edited by Napa; 23rd July 2018 at 13:28.

  50. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You keep repeating something that I keep telling you is wrong. You keep repeating that the choice is 1) Pakistan continuing its low-level war with India OR 2) Pakistan "gets friendly" with India which would lead to "Hindu domination of Islamic Pakistan".

    Pakistan doesn't need to be friendly with India, what it needs to do for development is improve security WITHIN Pakistan. For that they need to curb the jihadists and end the Army's low-level war with India. That will not lead to "Hindu domination" of Pakistan, it will lead to Pakistan developing modern industries.

    The real "betrayal" of TNT is the failure of Pakistan do develop. It remains a feudal state with no modern industries.



    If you think Prussia is a good model for a 21st century country to follow, you are beyond deluded.



    Again, you keep repeating yourself that India (via Hindu Nationalists) wants to annex Pakistan, which is ridiculous.

    Obviously, it will be good for India if the Pakistani Army ends its low level war against India, but it will be a hundred times better for Pakistan's economy which shows no signs of development.

    I can tell you this a hundred more times, but as they say "you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink". This is becoming rather futile. Probably good advice for @Mamoon also.
    Well said. You can gauge the mentality of certain people who claim that they will stop supporting Imran Khan if he attempts to make peace with India. These people are probably closet Zaid Hamid supporters.

    This obsession with India will be the end of Pakistan. We need to wake up before it is too late.

  51. #211
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    @Napa I guess we won't settle this issue (already going off topic), and anyway, horses or cows, if we follow patterns attested by all on ground analysts, Hindu nationalism is rising at a fast pace, and I guess that only history will tell us if the Akhand Bharat idea, so much prized by many important Hindu nationalists groups, incl. the RSS which directly influences the BJP (you know... the ruling party), was only cosmetic rhetoric, as you seem to think, or some long term plan, as the Hindu ideologues themselves attest with more or less honesty.

    Until then, Pak Army will have to take guard against the multidimensional "peaceful" Hindu conspiracies (internal unrest, water issues, etc though China's CPEC has more or less reduced these the proxy war aspects).

    @Mamoon Imran Khan has good ideological references (Iqbal/Shariati) but he's still too soft on many issues, incl. India. I wish he could read Sayyid Qutb. I'm on the PTI bandwagon because it fights the looters and criminals from the other parties, mainly.

    Also Zaid Hamid is very far from supporting PTI.

  52. #212
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    Raza Rumi just said on BBC that "I will be hesitant to say that there is a wide spread manipulation in elections. "

    (Read: Kyun k aglay saboot maang letay hain.)



    TalentSpotterPk: I pray PanamaLeak sink Sharif ship forever we dont want this pseudo democracy

  53. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Hafiz Saeed himself is not contesting he never ruled over us and is also not convicted by our courts that's what matters to me.
    His son and son in law are btoh contesting from AAT platform after their own party was banned by ECP.

    They are not the only candidates with links to extremist groups.

    Think about how this affects our reputation in the rest of the world.

    We can't support extremists and at same time complain that we are doing more than anyone else to fight terror.

    There is a reason we are on the anti-terror financing list. Our foreign policy has been a terrible failure for a long time.

  54. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moh@n View Post
    260 of his party members are contesting, only because your Army is fine with it.

    The entire world calls him a terrorist so nobody cares if you or other Pakistanis call him an angel.
    So what, your PP hero always insists Indians don't give a fig about what the rest of the world thinks of Modi and his fundo govt, he was cleared by the Indian courts so that is all that matters for Indians. So same logic applies for Pakistanis as it does for every other sovereign nation state, they respect their own jurisdiction above others. I hope you can understand that and stop shamelessly trolling.


    I for one welcome our new In____ overlords - Kent Brockman

  55. #215
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    Human Rights Commission of Pakistan Report on Curbs of freedom Expression during Election 2018

    Just for the reference, how fair and free were the campaign process: - The environment under which Media is operating...HRCP, report today!!


    HRCP(Human Rights Commission of Pakistan):


    Ful report can be found at
    http://hrcp-web.org/hrcpweb/curbs-on...ding-exercise/

    Curbs on Distribution in print media


    Interviews carried out independently by HRCP with distributors in Balochistan, Punjab and Sindh corroborate allegations by Dawn that disruptions and intermittent closures in commercial establishments and residential areas associated with the military have had a serious impact on business. Following the publication of an interview with former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on 12 May 2018, sales agents allege that the distribution of Dawn has been disrupted daily in at least 20 targeted cities and towns – specifically in cantonment areas and army offices and schools.

    This has been accompanied by the withdrawal or suspension of advertisements: Dawn reports that, since October 2016, it has suffered a complete ban on advertising from organizations falling under the domain of the ISPR, including DHA and other commercial establishments.
    HRCP has documented at least three instances in which cable operators in Punjab and GB say they were compelled to take certain channels off air. In each case, they received a telephone call from persons identifying themselves as state or intelligence agency officials, warning them to ‘remove’ Geo TV from the list of channels being transmitted or to move it to the very end, thereby making it less accessible. All respondents say they had no choice but to comply for fear their business would be closed down or attacked.
    Press advice and intimidation

    This is interesting, how narrative, messaging and propaganda was controlled by, well you know, the institution whose integrity I dare not to question

    Verbal press advice, received either on the telephone or during a visit, usually pertains to what should not be published or broadcast. HRCP’s interviews reveal that the most commonly tabooed subjects are: missing persons, the Pashtun Tahafuz Movement (PTM), Baloch separatists and rights activists such as Mama Qadeer, the Panama trial and NAB references, the disqualification and arrest of Nawaz Sharif, references to any questionable decisions by the judiciary, allegations of judicial overreach and questions about the armed forces.
    At least two respondents report having been warned that news transmissions must use the words ‘criminal’ or ‘convicted’ – rather than ‘former Prime Minister’ – to identify Nawaz Sharif. Other topics unpopular with the establishment, at least three respondents have claimed, include criticism of the PTI.
    Below can give you an idea, how they use tools like NAB, FIA, Judiciary to get the job done

    At least four television or radio journalists report that, in addition to communicating directly with ‘errant’ journalists, state or intelligence agencies tend to approach channel or newspaper owners directly, threatening their channel/publication or parent business with NAB or FIA cases or suspension of advertisements unless they agree to abide by certain conditions.
    At least seven editors and reporters in GB have testified to receiving press advice and being threatened with dire consequences – including threats of arrest, violence or death – if they do not comply. Most say they are warned against giving coverage to nationalists and reporting negatively about state institutions and government departments. In one extreme case, an editor and publisher who did not comply, despite being offered bribes and his life threatened five times, was accused of being on the payroll of foreign spy agencies. A case was registered against him under the Terrorism Act and he was arrested. He remains in prison.
    Bribes, favors or ‘fed’ narratives

    I dare not to call this monitory corruption, because if it is done for the greater good of the nation, its actually a good thing. We also have similar kind of language in PEMRA code of conduct

    Several respondents specified that the quid pro quo for strictly following directions is the promise of access to events and personalities. However, senior representatives of the establishment, they claim, often offer bribes of foreign travel, allotment of plots and other privileges, professional advancement, cash bribes, promises of advertisement revenue and government jobs.
    This is hilarious part of code of conduct, Propaganda is completely legal, if done by right folks

    Definition of Propaganda:

    Propaganda” means dissemination of any doctrine, rumor or selective information to promote one sided views on any controversial issue, except in public interest, and of public importance

    Ref: PEMRA code of conduct, section 2(j)
    http://58.65.182.183/pemra/pemgov/wp...of_Conduct.pdf


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  56. #216
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    Not surprised reading this.

    It is not easy raising these topics in Pakistan.

    People prefer to ignore the facts as it is easier for our lazy minds to go along with the state implanted narrative.

    Your thread has had no replies even though this is a v serious issue.

  57. #217
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    No Matter Who Wins Pakistan’s Vote, the Nation Loses - FP

    Another day, another scathing attack on our saviors by the international establishment that does not want to see Pakistan prosper.

    A very good piece by the patwari Husain Haqqani. Some important excerpts:

    The military thinks elections give it a facade to rule from above. But that plan keeps backfiring.

    Although Khan has been in politics since 1997, he has fared poorly at the ballot box in the three parliamentary elections he and his party have so far contested.

    He has never held any government position, and most accounts suggest he is ill-prepared for the responsibility of running a nuclear-armed country of more than 200 million people.

    Moreover, most of his party’s candidates this time are former PML and PPP parliamentarians persuaded—or coerced—by the military to defect and join the PTI.

    And so, while Khan would be a first-time prime minister, his government would comprise some of the same people whose corruption he has decried throughout his political career.

    The fact is that many Pakistanis recognize that running afoul of the military, and not just corruption, is at the heart of the proceedings against Sharif, who has now been elected prime minister three times but failed to complete a single term.

    The Pakistani military obviously wants a civilian facade in the form of an elected government that follows the military’s dictates on policy toward India, Afghanistan, jihadi terrorism, and relations with China and the United States.

    It does not want a genuinely popular civilian politician in power, backed by an electoral mandate, and certainly not one that might alter the country’s trajectory.

    If Sharif’s PML-N overcomes all odds and still manages to win, the corruption cases and the ensuing legal battles will continue to impair its ability to govern. In that case, civil-military relations will also remain tense, with the potential for another showdown.

    On the other hand, if someone like Khan is put into office after an election that is notably manipulated, he will lack the credibility needed for effective governance. This may seem like a paradox: Why would Khan even need credibility if the military is really in charge?

    But that very credibility is critical to the military’s goal of keeping up the pretense that Pakistan is a constitutional democracy, not a dictatorship.

    If the puppet strings are too visible, then the puppeteer holds all responsibility for all outcomes. The establishment wants it both ways: power but no responsibility.

    No matter who wins on July 25, Pakistan’s military-led establishment will continue to wield effective power.

    Jihadis and other religious extremists will continue to flourish. Pakistan’s international isolation and economic problems are also likely to endure.

    Only the military can change any of this, if it really wants to break the cycle of instability that Pakistani politics seems destined to endure.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/23...-nation-loses/
    ____________________

    As I said yesterday, the individual opinions and conclusions of these writers do not matter; what matters is that this debate is being raised in international media on almost daily basis which did not happen in the past.

    This is the beginning of the end for military supremacy in Pakistan.

    While India has surpassed China and France as the fast growing and the sixth largest economy respectively, Pakistan is trying to sustain its democracy, but that hasn’t stopped us from making empty threats in India’s face.

  58. #218
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    Khan delivers a whole generation into servitude to Pakistan’s old establishment (NY Times Opinion)

    Young Pakistan Is Ready to ‘Just Do It.’ Whatever ‘It’ Is.
    By Mohammed Hanif
    Mr. Hanif is a Pakistani novelist.
    July 23, 2018


    KARACHI, Pakistan — Imran Khan, Pakistan’s prime minister in waiting, hates being a loser. He has said, “As a sportsman I know winning & losing are part of the game,” but that was after coming out of retirement to win the Cricket World Cup in 1992. And losing doesn’t seem to be part of his idea of the political game.

    Yet for a very long time Khan was a loser — that other kind of loser, the one you still hear in President Trump’s Twitter voice. For much of two decades, while pledging to bring about a revolution and saying things like “when I become prime minister,” he prowled the margins of Pakistani politics. A darling of English tabloids, his rallies back home weren’t attracting much of a crowd.

    But over the last five years, after Khan’s party, Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (P.T.I.), lost the 2013 election to Nawaz Sharif’s Pakistan Muslim League-N, Khan has become the main contender to power. Weeks before the general election on July 25, even Khan’s opponents were calling him ladla, the favorite. Sharif, who was removed from his post as prime minister last year over corruption charges, has just been sentenced to prison. Other candidates have been hounded by the police or the courts or are being killed by the Taliban or the Islamic State.

    People who used to laugh at Khan’s ambition have been falling over one another to get on the P.T.I. ticket — or, failing that, to take selfies with him. There’s even an app that generates those.

    Khan is fond of using sporting metaphors to convey his message. When his opponents are called out on something, he says that an “umpire’s finger” has been raised — and when one of them joins his party, TV headlines scream, “another wicket falls.” Most of Khan’s young followers have only seen him play cricket on YouTube, but they seem inspired by his vision of a new Pakistan, a Pakistan free of corruption, a Pakistan that is respected on the world stage. Just like he was as a star athlete.

    When Khan started out in politics, it was like he was throwing a party for a young Pakistan. About 70 percent of the population is under the age of 30, so he has brought music to political rallies. Today, even conservative party leaders who once wouldn’t be seen near a guitar are hiring DJs to play music during their speeches.

    Khan has also brought into the fold the very politicians who for years called him a loser. He has surrounded himself with land grabbers, feudal lords and rent seekers. He justifies surrounding himself with “electables” — people with dedicated vote banks — because they “know the science of winning elections.” Many of the candidates on P.T.I.’s lineup for the election are professional politicians who have been party-hopping for generations.

    Khan has finally become a traditional politician — and in the process he might be taking the country’s youth back in time.


    In one of his first protest rallies during what had been a very hot summer, some of his supporters clashed with police. One of them was caught on camera saying, if the police beats us up how will the revolution happen? He went on to add, famously, “we are wasting away in this heat.”

    The complaint about being hot was silly but important for coming from a new kind of voice: from someone who absolutely didn’t expect to be beaten up by the police. But Khan’s young warriors do cheer when the police beat up other protesters or the army abducts its detractors and makes them disappear. Khan’s critics call them “youthias” — a riff on *******, slang for a jerk.

    Social media accounts with Khan’s picture and his party’s flag are full of staggering misogyny. (His followers seem to take after him.) Many of them claim to be super patriots. Some say that Malala Yousafzai’s shooting in 2012 was staged and that India is sponsoring terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

    Khan’s new Pakistan was going to be a bit like Sweden and a bit like Singapore — or, really, like old Medina: According to him, all welfare state models are borrowed from early Islamic empires. He supports the blasphemy law and has defended the justice system adopted by the Taliban from Pashtun tribes.

    Khan’s opponents often chide him for his marriages and affairs, his character flaws, his spiritual confusion. But these things have rarely done harm to a male politician in the past. And Khan seems to think that he has enough electables behind him. That the Taliban listen to him even though they are reported to have threatened him. That he can knock down a corrupt system with the help of the politicians who built it.

    Now, he just needs to keep the army on board.

    Democracy was restored in 2008 after nearly a decade of Gen. Pervez Musharraf in power. But the decade since has shown that this model isn’t working. Missing persons’ cases are increasing. The media are censored at levels not seen even under dictatorship. And the Pakistani army would like to run the country the way it used to: It’s fine for elected politicians to cut ribbons at inaugurations but not for them to decide foreign policy or internal security.

    But can Khan take on the military establishment, which still sits at the top of the food chain and is still fighting an eternal war against India and its own people, too? His opponents describe his supporters as “boot polishia,” those who lick the army’s boots. If Khan comes to power, like all prime ministers before him, he will try to wriggle out from under those boots. And that’s not likely to end well.

    Khan seems to have walked out of a self-help book or a sports ad, but after an epic journey, he is finally knocking at the gates of power, ready to “Just do it” — whatever “it” is. Khan has politicized a whole generation, only to deliver it into servitude to Pakistan’s old establishment.

    Mohammed Hanif (@mohammedhanif) is the author of the novels “A Case of Exploding Mangoes” and “Our Lady of Alice Bhatti,” and the librettist for the opera “Bhutto.” He is a contributing opinion writer.

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook and Twitter (@NYTopinion), and sign up for the Opinion Today newsletter.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/o...mran-khan.html

  59. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    While India has surpassed China and France as the fast growing and the sixth largest economy respectively, Pakistan is trying to sustain its democracy, but that hasn’t stopped us from making empty threats in India’s face.
    International media infers that Pakistan is a country run under military establishment. All its state institutions are under direct control from the Army. Further, it infers that COAS is non-executive PM of the country. Do you seriously believe in this?

    I'm a Pakistani, and you are telling me I don't know what is happening in my country? You are telling me what is written in international media is 100% spot on correct while me living in this country don't know the real truth?

    Either you are really desperate or you are very naďve. In either case you posting international articles or shouting on top of your lungs won't change my opinion about my country.

    Now, I have quoted a specific part from your OP. This is very critical as you yourself have pointed out that we have fallen back quite considerably in economic standards, human welfare, insurgency, international trade, etc. We all know that Pakistan was doing better than India, Vietnam, Malaysia, etc during early 1980's. Do you know what happened since mid 80's? Your so called civil supreme leader entered Pakistan politics in the name of democracy. PMLN and PPP basically destroyed the economy at the grass root levels and they haven't stopped in destroying our economy since then.

    Now after all this, you are posting to encourage people to vote for them again in the name of civil democracy? I much rather vote for Imran than vote for these crooks to come into power again and keep rotating their wheel of destruction.

    Enough is enough. Its Imran's time now.

  60. #220
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    Why is international media.so butt hurt now? Where were they all these years when elections were being rigged left, right and centre. Now that they see their puppets not coming into power, they're raising concerns over army's involvement. I'd rather have someone who's controlled by his country's army than someone who's controlled by the modis and trumps.

    For God's sake please leave your egos behind for one day and give the least corrupt person a chance. And if he doesn't perform, we'll all speak up against him as well and throw him to Adiala as well. Quit this gulami of ttf parties.

  61. #221
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    This article has credibility? It's written by Hussain Haqqani. LOL

  62. #222
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    This time, International Media is giving too much focus..

    Something is definitely not right with them.


    140 characters from Lala's keyboard, it’s as if he’s launched 140 nuclear missiles on India.

  63. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Another day, another scathing attack on our saviors by the international establishment that does not want to see Pakistan prosper.

    A very good piece by the patwari Husain Haqqani. Some important excerpts:



    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/23...-nation-loses/
    ____________________

    As I said yesterday, the individual opinions and conclusions of these writers do not matter; what matters is that this debate is being raised in international media on almost daily basis which did not happen in the past.

    This is the beginning of the end for military supremacy in Pakistan.

    While India has surpassed China and France as the fast growing and the sixth largest economy respectively, Pakistan is trying to sustain its democracy, but that hasn’t stopped us from making empty threats in India’s face.
    The article makes a lot of claims which might or might not be true, but what I don't understand is why raising it in international media makes it more credible? Also why are you so bothered about India beating China's economy, or finish your comment about empty threats against India? Your whole post reads like it was scripted by the Indian govt.

    Start presenting your opinions as a Pakistani citizen who wants to see improvement rather than worrying about India and your message will be more credible.


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